Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Eye(s), again (was Re: LoTR movie question..) References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 33 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 16:28:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: newsfeed.uchicago.edu 983032096 128.135.12.7 (Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:28:16 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:28:16 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32931 Quoth "Conrad Dunkerson" in article : > "Bryan S. Slick" wrote: > > I have a rough picture of Sauron in my mind.. > > What do YOU think he looks like.. > Sauron in the Second and Third ages should look like a very large > (but not gigantic) dark humanoid. [snip] > His eyes might be reasonably supposed to be red. Er... this raises an interesting question. Eye_s_? Or eye? I'm fairly sure that Sauron settled on his final nasty physical form as soon as he reformed his body after the drowning of Numenor. When he came back after his defeat in the War of the Last Alliance, my impression is that he returned to the same shape. Now, given the fact that we hear repeatedly about "The Red Eye", what is is? Does he have just one eye in his face? Does he have one red eye and one blue? If he does have a single eye, is it centered in his face or is there a hollow, sunken eye socket on the other side? The only pictures that Tolkien himself made of Sauron that I know of are in _Artist and Illustrator_, in plates 181 and 182 (found on pages 182 and 183, interestingly enough). These drawings are ideas for the dust jacket for RotK, and include what is probably Sauron's great dark cloudlike form reaching out moments after the fall of Barad-dur. Those drawings each show just one red eye, but it doesn't seem to be centered and there may be glimpses of an eyelid or eyebrow on the other side. Anyway, what does everyone think? What did Sauron's eye or eyes look like? Steuard Jensen ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Eye(s), again (was Re: LoTR movie question..) Lines: 39 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 17:22:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.27.14 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 983035370 12.79.27.14 (Sat, 24 Feb 2001 17:22:50 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 17:22:50 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32899 "Steuard Jensen" wrote in message news:AiRl6.3$Cx4.198@newsfeed.uchicago.edu... > Er... this raises an interesting question. Eye_s_? Or eye? > Now, given the fact that we hear repeatedly about "The Red Eye", > what is is? I've generally taken the 'eye of Sauron' that searches the landscape to be a 'magical' expression of his will - particularly his ability to search the land through the palantir of Minas Ithil. In drafts Tolkien referred to the Eye as 'a single light in a high window' - which seems very similar to descriptions of Denethor's use of the palantir in Minas Tirith. It was also his symbol. > Those drawings each show just one red eye, but it doesn't seem to > be centered and there may be glimpses of an eyelid or eyebrow on > the other side. Sauron is also shown in profile... such that we would only expect to see one eye in such a stance. If Sauron did have only one eye (though I can't imagine why this would be the case) it would appear to be the right one from those sketches. > Anyway, what does everyone think? What did Sauron's eye or eyes > look like? The 'white' of the eye is apparently red, the iris grey and the pupil a vertical black slit. This matches both descriptions and illustrations of the eye. There is nothing indicating that Sauron still had two eyes in the Second and Third ages... but there is also nothing suggesting why he might have lost one. ###### From: Matthias Koch-Schirrmeister Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Eye(s), again (was Re: LoTR movie question..) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 01:45:43 +0100 Organization: TellTaleHard - Rock In Progression Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3A9855B7.3DC583F7@telltalehard.de> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pd903cedc.dip0.t-ipconnect.de (217.3.206.220) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 983061654 25694448 217.3.206.220 (16 [68960]) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [de] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.18 i586) X-Accept-Language: de-DE, en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!kanja.arnes.si!news-hub.siol.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.tele.dk!193.174.75.178!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!pd903cedc.dip0.t-ipconnect.DE!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32977 Steuard Jensen wrote: > Anyway, what does everyone think? What did Sauron's eye or eyes look > like? Is there a need, anyway, for Sauron to appear in person in the movie, except possibly in the afore mentioned battle scenes? IŽd imagine that he, should he be seen at all, would not be shown clearly and in full living colour but rather as a vague human shape. As his main weapons seem to be his will and the terror about him, he would feel no need to act physically, hence there would be no need to show him in full detail. For all his purposes in the Third Age, IMO Sauron would choose a shape that would intimidate others. IŽd imagine his eyes cold blue with the ability to change to dark red, but overall humanoid. The "lidless eye" is certainly a metaphor. Matthias ###### From: redwine@bestweb.net (Flesh And Wine) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Eye(s), again (was Re: LoTR movie question..) Message-ID: <3a98a690.2963707@nntp.bestweb.net> References: X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Lines: 6 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 06:28:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.179.40.130 X-Complaints-To: Abuse Role , We Care X-Trace: newshog.newsread.com 983082520 216.179.40.130 (Sun, 25 Feb 2001 01:28:40 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 01:28:40 EST Organization: BestWeb (bestweb.net) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!news-xfer.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!POSTED.newshog.newsread.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32980 There was a dark shadow With eye in the middle of his forehead When he was bad He was very, very bad, And when he was horrible He was horrid. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Eye(s), again (was Re: LoTR movie question..) References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 32 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 03:48:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: newsfeed.uchicago.edu 983332106 128.135.12.7 (Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:48:26 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:48:26 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!newsfeed.uchicago.edu.MISMATCH!newsfeed.uchicago.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:33089 Quoth "Conrad Dunkerson" in article : > "Steuard Jensen" wrote: > > Those drawings each show just one red eye, but it doesn't seem to > > be centered and there may be glimpses of an eyelid or eyebrow on > > the other side. > Sauron is also shown in profile... such that we would only expect to > see one eye in such a stance. This demonstrates the dangers of writing text with a picture in front of you. The whole time I described the drawings in my post (as quoted above), I was looking at Sauron's form in profile... and that orientation was so firmly in my mind that I didn't even think to mention it. Knowing that he was shown in profile certainly clarifies the description! > > Anyway, what does everyone think? What did Sauron's eye or eyes > > look like? > There is nothing indicating that Sauron still had two eyes in the > Second and Third ages... but there is also nothing suggesting why > he might have lost one. Well... Frodo does see just the one eye in the Mirror of Galadriel, and that together with literal readings of the references to "The Red Eye" could imply a single eye. One might imagine that Sauron could have chosen to have a single eye as part of the hideousness of his post-Akalabeth form. But I'll agree: two eyes does seem more likely to me at the moment (though my mental image in my first few readings was always of something like a cyclops). Steuard Jensen ###### From: "John J" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Eye(s), again (was Re: LoTR movie question..) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:06:24 -0000 Lines: 17 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-184-101-60-62.vip.uk.com Message-ID: <3aa0c683_1@news1.vip.uk.com> X-Trace: 3 Mar 2001 10:25:07 GMT, modem-184-101-60-62.vip.uk.com X-Report: Report abuse to nntpabuse@vip.uk.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.tele.dk!212.74.64.35!colt.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!newsfeed.icl.net!iclnet!news1.vip.uk.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:33112 "Steuard Jensen" wrote in message news:ey_m6.126$Ox3.4043@newsfeed.uchicago.edu... > Well... Frodo does see just the one eye in the Mirror of Galadriel, > and that together with literal readings of the references to "The Red > Eye" could imply a single eye. One might imagine that Sauron could > have chosen to have a single eye as part of the hideousness of his > post-Akalabeth form. But Sauron didn't choose to be hideous ... he couldn't reform himself in any other way. -- John Jones Birmingham, England ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ###### From: jce@seasip.demon.co.uk (John Elliott) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Eye(s), again (was Re: LoTR movie question..) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:18:32 Message-ID: <983398807.10826.0.nnrp-08.c2de7091@news.demon.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: seasip.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: seasip.demon.co.uk:194.222.112.145 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 983398807 nnrp-08:10826 NO-IDENT seasip.demon.co.uk:194.222.112.145 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: skim 0.8.4 Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!do.de.uu.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!europa.netcrusader.net!194.159.255.21!dispose.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!seasip.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:33208 sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >One might imagine that Sauron could >have chosen to have a single eye as part of the hideousness of his >post-Akalabeth form. But I'll agree: two eyes does seem more likely >to me at the moment (though my mental image in my first few readings >was always of something like a cyclops). "The brief glow fell upon a huge sitting figure, still and solemn as the great stone kings of Argonath. The years had gnawed it, and violent hands had maimed it. Its head was gone, and in its place was set in mockery a round rough-hewn stone, rudely painted by strange hands in the likeness of a grinning face with one large red eye in the midst of its forehead." The artistic traditions of the Orcs seem to tend towards the cyclops version. -- ------------- http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/index.html -------------------- John Elliott |BLOODNOK: "But why have you got such a long face?" |SEAGOON: "Heavy dentures, Sir!" - The Goon Show :-------------------------------------------------------------------------) ###### Lines: 23 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 01 Mar 2001 01:48:36 GMT References: <983398807.10826.0.nnrp-08.c2de7091@news.demon.co.uk> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Eye(s), again (was Re: LoTR movie question..) Message-ID: <20010228204836.15175.00000071@nso-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:33160 In article <983398807.10826.0.nnrp-08.c2de7091@news.demon.co.uk>, jce@seasip.demon.co.uk (John Elliott) writes: >sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >>One might imagine that Sauron could >>have chosen to have a single eye as part of the hideousness of his >>post-Akalabeth form. But I'll agree: two eyes does seem more likely >>to me at the moment (though my mental image in my first few readings >>was always of something like a cyclops). > > "The brief glow fell upon a huge sitting figure, still and solemn as the >great stone kings of Argonath. The years had gnawed it, and violent hands >had maimed it. Its head was gone, and in its place was set in mockery a >round rough-hewn stone, rudely painted by strange hands in the likeness >of a grinning face with one large red eye in the midst of its forehead." > > The artistic traditions of the Orcs seem to tend towards the cyclops >version. And it might be symbolic of Sauron's one-dimensional thinking (i.e. he could not conceive of someone attempting to destroy the Ring) Russ ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue Screen of Death) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Eye(s), again (was Re: LoTR movie question..) Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 03:54:49 -0800 Organization: Will pointlessly annoy people for food. Message-ID: References: <3aa0c683_1@news1.vip.uk.com> X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des X-Senator-Joe-Bait: MTV dare violence irresponsibility stunt censorship X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c34.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:33189 / > Well... Frodo does see just the one eye in the Mirror of Galadriel, / > and that together with literal readings of the references to "The Red / > Eye" could imply a single eye. One might imagine that Sauron could / > have chosen to have a single eye as part of the hideousness of his / > post-Akalabeth form. / / But Sauron didn't choose to be hideous ... he couldn't reform himself in any / other way. Wasn't this subject the cause of the schism the split the Holy Balrog Church with the Sauronant Reformation? -- Bush and Dick Bait: Robin Red Breast, Blue Tit, Jackass Penguin, Erect-crested Penguin, Red-necked Grebe, Fairy Prion, Rock Shag. Machine censorred for you protection. -- CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 pretty pretty http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/ All new and improved web pages! Bookmark yours today! :)-free zone. Elect LUM World Dictator!