From: mathwft@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: The LAST Ship. Date: 25 Jan 2001 04:37:51 GMT Organization: Department of Mathematics and Statistics, University of Canterbury, Christchurch, NewZealand Lines: 149 Message-ID: <94oaiv$cle$6@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: e220-0.math.canterbury.ac.nz X-Newsreader: xrn 8.02 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.tele.dk!151.189.0.75!newsfeed.germany.net!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!usenet.net.nz!news.iprolink.co.nz!news!newsfeed01.tsnz.net!canterbury.ac.nz!mathwft Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31557 It has long been observed that Tolkien did a lot of re-working of his own ideas; often, almost a sort of self-plagiarism. Just recently, someone was successfully comparing the careers of Frodo and Beren. Even more striking, (and I forget which reviewer I read this in), is the similarity between Frodo's trip and Bilbo's; (sudden start, Rivendell, mountain-tunnels, spiders, eagles). Then again; the general outlines of the coast of western middle-earth, and of Beleriand, (and both with a mighty river down the middle), have always looked suspiciously similar to me (though the scale is different). More remarkable still, is the similarity between Doriath, and Thranduil's realm in Mirkwood; with their massive river-riven caves as headquarters. Indeed, in The Hobbit, it says of the elves (concerning their grudge against dwarves): "In ancient days they had had wars with some of the dwarves, whom they accused of stealing their treasure. It is only fair to say that the dwarves gave a different account, and said that they only took what was their due" Surely this is a direct reference to the episode of the nauglamir; but of course by threading it into the Hobbit, he has made a slight mismatch of it, as it wasn't the Mirkwood elves who were involved. So the exacting reader may be left with the idea that it was some other quarrel being referred to. Now I am not complaining about this sort of thing; far from it ! Indeed it is one of the charms of JRRT's style, that things often seem "somehow familiar", from somewhere else. But clearly, he was mining his own enormous backlog of half-finished material, all the time. He had a great many ideas on the go, and sometimes gave them expression more than once. But even Tollers excelled himself in one area; and that is the main subject of my essay, given in the title line: THE LAST SHIP. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ JRRT was clearly fascinated by this idea; and why not ? It is indeed a haunting and poignant theme: the idea of the fleeing elves leaving more and more urgently, until at last there is just one *final* ship, which they *have* to be on, or give up Aman forever. And in fact, Tolkien has re-worked this particular idea no less than four (count them) times; surely a record even for him. Firstly there is the poem "the last ship"; ostensibly part of Gondor-lore, referring to the departure of many Lorien-elves from Pelargir. But I bet when he wrote the first version of this, he had in mind that it would be the last ship of all. Then there is of course the ship bearing away the three ringbearers, and Frodo & Bilbo. I would guess, again, that Tolkien initially intended this to be the *very* last elven-ship to Aman. But he later found, as we all know, that this just wouldn't do; and he had to have Sam take ship later, to revisit his old master and partake in the blessed reward, at least for a little while. Admittedly this isn't completely certified in the appendices, just suggested with, "the tradition is handed down". But JRR didn't (and we don't) have the heart to think they didn't meet again. Then finally, after the death of Elessar, we are told that Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, and sailed over sea (with Gimli). Yet another "last ship". (And to confuse things still further, there are mentions of Cirdan waiting for `the last ship'). So we have... (a) the Gondor poem's last ship; (b) the ringbearer's ship; (c) Sam's ship; (d) Legolas' ship. Really; one might ask with exasperation: just when was the last f****** ship !!! My answer is... (e) none of the above. And I will attempt to support this view, with my usual massive lack of hard evidence, and surfeit of cocksure prejudice. We start by recalling that the appendices, and also the prologue to LotR, are additions to the Red Book, made by hobbits very much later than the war of the ring. Indeed, some, at least, clearly must postdate the death of Elessar; but perhaps not by a huge amount, as no further events are recounted beyond Arwen's own death. In fact it refers to the Legolas/Gimli ship as "one of the last notes" in the red book (appendix A III). This date is 1541, and the LotR prologue refers to the Findegil copy as 1592. So the events described below are about at or a little before this last date. Now as stated above, Cirdan is also intending to wait for the last ship. At the start of the 3rd-age chronology he says "as for me, my heart is with the sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails". The strong implication is that he intends to BE on it. For corroboration... Appendix A I(iii): "At the Grey Havens dwelt Cirdan the shipwright, and some say he dwells there still, until the last ship sets sail into the west". Now as to exactly when this took place in the late 1500s, one can't say. But we can hazard a guess as to why. In Lothlorien, Haldir says to the company... "[even if Sauron is defeated] for the Elves it will prove at best a truce, in which they may pass to the Sea unhindered, and leave the Middle-earth for ever". This `truce', (which would in fact be far more than that), was to be provided by the victory of Aragorn (& co). Although there were still many leftover enemies to subdue, one gets the impression that this would be achieved reasonably soon, and that Elessar's reign would finish with a long period of peace and tranquiltiy. I believe it was to be during this "peace of Elessar", that the last chance was to come for the elves to find escape from the tumults of middle-earth. Though the elves of Mirkwood were to remain "untroubled", I suspect those of Ithilien (under Legolas) would, like him, all be subject to the allure of the sea. Then there were those of Lorien. From the 3rd-age chronology (mid-1418)... "In the Greenwood the Sylvan Elves remained untroubled, but in Lorien there lingered sadly only a few of its former people". And at the end of the Tale of Aragorn & Arwen, she "passed away to the land of Lorien, and dwelt there alone....... and the land was silent". So what had happened to all the elves there ? Finally, there is the much-debated matter of Elladan & Elrohir. The LotR prologue (note on shire records) says..... "[at Rivendell], though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk. It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there.....but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens". His sons *long* remained. This *long* seems to me to carry an implication that they finally DID leave. Indeed, it seems to me that their main reason for staying on, was to gather up and organize what they could of the last of the Eldar west of the Misty mountains, to help them ship out West, from Lindon; while simultaneously, perhaps, Legolas was preparing the same for those elves east of the mountains. It also says of Celeborn (in the above), that with him went "the last living memory of the elder days in middle earth". This would be, Celeborn himself, and also Cirdan. The last two survivors of the 1st age. So the, putting all these gleanings together, here is my account of the last of the Eldar, and also of course, the LAST SHIP itself. ~~~~~~~~~ After Elessar's death, the leading elves would realize that the long peace of Elessar might soon be at an end. The word would go out that the last round-up of elves who wanted to leave was finally taking place. Those east of the mountains would be the first to get the news, and also feel under the most threat from any easterling trouble that might renew; so they would be first away. A few ships would probably have gone, right after Elessars death; and the last ship from Pelargir would have been Legolas', in which Gimli also left, unique among dwarf-kind. After Arwen's death, E & E would have no further reason for remaining in middle-earth, and, their organizing task almost complete, would have taken the final Eriadoran refugees with them to Lindon, where, last among those still to leave would have been Cirdan and a few helpers. And so finally, the last, absolutely *very last*, once-and-for-all-LAST SHIP would have left the now-deserted havens, containing Cirdan, Celeborn, and Elladan & Elrohir. Sic transit gloria...... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Taylor wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do ghost ships have skeleton crews? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: ktn3654@physics.utexas.edu (Kevin) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: 28 Jan 2001 10:24:01 -0600 Organization: Kevin Lines: 176 Message-ID: <951h31$f5q$1@linux10.ph.utexas.edu> References: <94oaiv$cle$6@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: linux10.ph.utexas.edu X-Trace: geraldo.cc.utexas.edu 980699046 25747 128.83.131.130 (28 Jan 2001 16:24:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cc.utexas.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jan 2001 16:24:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!opentransit.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!physics.utexas.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31664 In article <94oaiv$cle$6@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz>, Bill Taylor wrote: >Surely this is a direct reference to the episode of the nauglamir; but of >course by threading it into the Hobbit, he has made a slight mismatch of it, >as it wasn't the Mirkwood elves who were involved. So the exacting reader >may be left with the idea that it was some other quarrel being referred to. It's clear that some of the Mirkwood Elves, including the royal family, were descended from the Sindar of Beleriand. In fact some of them could have been present when Thingol and the Dwarves had their little misunderstanding. So I don't think there's any mismatch at all. >But even Tollers excelled himself in one area; and that is the main subject >of my essay, given in the title line: THE LAST SHIP. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >JRRT was clearly fascinated by this idea; and why not ? It is indeed a >haunting and poignant theme: the idea of the fleeing elves leaving more >and more urgently, until at last there is just one *final* ship, which they >*have* to be on, or give up Aman forever. And in fact, Tolkien has re-worked >this particular idea no less than four (count them) times; surely a record >even for him. > >Firstly there is the poem "the last ship"; ostensibly part of Gondor-lore, >referring to the departure of many Lorien-elves from Pelargir. > >So we have... >(a) the Gondor poem's last ship; >(b) the ringbearer's ship; >(c) Sam's ship; >(d) Legolas' ship. > >Really; one might ask with exasperation: just when was the last f*** ship ! > >My answer is... >(e) none of the above. Well, I agree with you about that. >We start by recalling that the appendices, and also the prologue to LotR, >are additions to the Red Book, made by hobbits very much later than the >war of the ring. Indeed, some, at least, clearly must postdate the death of >Elessar; but perhaps not by a huge amount, as no further events are recounted >beyond Arwen's own death. In fact it refers to the Legolas/Gimli ship as >"one of the last notes" in the red book (appendix A III). This date is 1541, >and the LotR prologue refers to the Findegil copy as 1592. So the events >described below are about at or a little before this last date. I think you're pushing the chronology of the Red Book itself too far. Several copies were made of the Red Book, and those copies could have had addditional notes written in them far after 1592. Those additional notes couldn't have been very extensive, but we're not talking about a large amount of information in the first place. >Now as stated above, Cirdan is also intending to wait for the last ship. >At the start of the 3rd-age chronology he says "as for me, my heart is with >the sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails". >The strong implication is that he intends to BE on it. For corroboration... >Appendix A I(iii): "At the Grey Havens dwelt Cirdan the shipwright, and some >say he dwells there still, until the last ship sets sail into the west". _Possibly_ the present tense in that quote refers to the late 1500s. >Now as to exactly when this took place in the late 1500s, one can't say. But >we can hazard a guess as to why. In Lothlorien, Haldir says to the company... >"[even if Sauron is defeated] for the Elves it will prove at best a truce, >in which they may pass to the Sea unhindered, and leave the Middle-earth >for ever". This `truce', (which would in fact be far more than that), was to >be provided by the victory of Aragorn (& co). Although there were still many >leftover enemies to subdue, one gets the impression that this would be >achieved reasonably soon, and that Elessar's reign would finish with a >long period of peace and tranquiltiy. My impression is that his reign was _reasonably_ peaceful from the beginning, but there were intermittent flare-ups of trouble with Easterlings, Haradrim, and/or Orcs up to the very end. It is said that he went on military campaigns with Eomer several times, "until Eomer grew old." That would be thirty years at least, and I can't imagine why things would suddenly get better after that. Also, I think ``The New Shadow'' is canonical enough to indicate there was further trouble of some sort during the reign of Eldarion... probably nothing huge, but enough to disturb the peace. >I believe it was to be during this "peace of Elessar", that the last chance >was to come for the elves to find escape from the tumults of middle-earth. There's the point where I disagree. I don't see why even a large war between (for example) Gondor and the Haradrim would have prevented Elves from leaving. Only some huge threat to all of Middle-Earth (i.e., Sauron) could have done that. >Though the elves of Mirkwood were to remain "untroubled", I suspect those >of Ithilien (under Legolas) would, like him, all be subject to the allure of >the sea. Then there were those of Lorien. From the 3rd-age chronology >(mid-1418)... "In the Greenwood the Sylvan Elves remained untroubled, but in >Lorien there lingered sadly only a few of its former people". >And at the end of the Tale of Aragorn & Arwen, she "passed away to the land of >Lorien, and dwelt there alone....... and the land was silent". So what had >happened to all the elves there ? It's not even clear to me that Lorien was deserted at that point. She may have dwelt alone, but maybe that just means she dwelt apart from the remaining Elves who still lived there. Maybe those remaining Elves were silent out of respect for her. Certainly though most of Lorien's inhabitants by then had either gone over Sea or elsewhere in Middle-Earth (Lindon, Ithilien, Rivendell). >Finally, there is the much-debated matter of Elladan & Elrohir. The LotR >prologue (note on shire records) says..... "[at Rivendell], though Elrond >had departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven >folk. It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there.....but there is no record >of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens". His sons *long* remained. >This *long* seems to me to carry an implication that they finally DID leave. But perhaps it's no more than a deduction that they left. JRR Tolkien in AD 1941: "Well, Celeborn certainly isn't living in Rivendell _now_, so he must have left." The reasoning might be that if Celeborn, Elladan, and Elrohir hadn't remained there _long_, then the Red Book _would_ have said something about it. Therefore they could have remained there a _really_ long time...maybe thousands of years. >Indeed, it seems to me that their main reason for staying on, was to gather >up and organize what they could of the last of the Eldar west of the Misty >mountains, to help them ship out West, from Lindon; while simultaneously, >perhaps, Legolas was preparing the same for those elves east of the mountains. I disagree. If that was all they were doing, surely it would have taken no more than a few years. >So the, putting all these gleanings together, here is my account of the last >of the Eldar, and also of course, the LAST SHIP itself. > ~~~~~~~~~ >After Elessar's death, the leading elves would realize that the long peace >of Elessar might soon be at an end. The word would go out that the last >round-up of elves who wanted to leave was finally taking place. Those east >of the mountains would be the first to get the news, and also feel under the >most threat from any easterling trouble that might renew; so they would be >first away. Thranduil's kingdom had successfully survived any possible threat from Easterlings for thousands of years. I don't see why the Elves there should have been so worried about Easterlings after Sauron himself had been vanquished. >A few ships would probably have gone, right after Elessars death; >and the last ship from Pelargir would have been Legolas', in which Gimli also >left, unique among dwarf-kind. That may or may not have been the last one from Pelargir. >After Arwen's death, E & E would have no further reason for remaining in >middle-earth, and, their organizing task almost complete, would have taken >the final Eriadoran refugees with them to Lindon, where, last among those >still to leave would have been Cirdan and a few helpers. And so finally, >the last, absolutely *very last*, once-and-for-all-LAST SHIP would have left >the now-deserted havens, containing Cirdan, Celeborn, and Elladan & Elrohir. There's where I _really_ disagree. I think those Elves who remained in Middle-Earth into the Fourth Age left very, very slowly. Clearly they had a strong attachment to Middle-Earth, and it just wouldn't be like Elves to act so hastily. Maybe half left every three hundred years or so. Their numbers would steadily dwindle, but there would always be a few left. They would get rarer and rarer, harder and harder for Men to find, and at last they would seem almost legendary; but still, once in a great while, mortals would meet them. This is pure speculation, but I have always imagined that the departure of the very last ship was what defined the end of the Fourth Age. So maybe it would have occurred two thousand years or so after the War of the Ring. The best piece of evidence I can think of for my perspective is the Epilogue to LOTR. I don't have the book with me, but Sam says something like "the Elves who are still here will stay for a while." He compares their departure to the slow fading of a winter sunset. Given how long the Elves had stayed in Middle-Earth already, "slow" must mean _really_ slow. Thousands of years seems reasonable to me. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <94oaiv$cle$6@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Lines: 95 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 01:59:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.72.68 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 981165542 12.78.72.68 (Sat, 03 Feb 2001 01:59:02 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 01:59:02 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!24.30.200.2.MISMATCH!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31839 "Bill Taylor" wrote in message news:94oaiv$cle$6@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz... > Then there is of course the ship bearing away the three > ringbearers, and Frodo & Bilbo. I would guess, again, that > Tolkien initially intended this to be the *very* last elven-ship > to Aman. This seems likely, though the intent could have been the last ship to sail from that particular haven (though Celeborn was implied to have sailed from the Havens thereafter). The same could be said of the Pelargir poem. My own take is that it was the last ship of the >Noldor< (see below). > (And to confuse things still further, there are mentions of > Cirdan waiting for `the last ship'). Some of those references make it fairly clear that this is the ship Gandalf (amongst others) departed on. > Really; one might ask with exasperation: just when was the last > f****** ship !!! > (e) none of the above. I agree, though for a somewhat different version. > Now as stated above, Cirdan is also intending to wait for the > last ship. At the start of the 3rd-age chronology he says "as for > me, my heart is with the sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores > until the last ship sails". The strong implication is that he > intends to BE on it. For corroboration... Appendix A I(iii): "At > the Grey Havens dwelt Cirdan the shipwright, and some say he > dwells there still, until the last ship sets sail into the west". A more detailed account of Cirdan's words and their meaning can be found at the very end of The Silmarillion (Of the Rings of Power); "'But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores, guarding the Havens until the last ship sails. Then I shall await thee.' White was that ship and long was it a-building, and long it awaited the end of which Cirdan had spoken. ... In that time the last of the Noldor set sail from the Havens and left Middle-earth for ever. And latest of all the Keepers of the Three Rings rode to the Sea, and Master Elrond took there the ship that Cirdan had made ready." This strongly implies (to me) that the ship of Elrond was the 'last ship' that Cirdan had been waiting on, that it took the very last of the Noldor out of Middle Earth, and that Cirdan himself took that ship into the West. This also seems especially likely to me as otherwise Legolas would not have been forced to build his own ship rather than sailing from the Havens. > His sons *long* remained. This *long* seems to me to carry an > implication that they finally DID leave. Well, it implies that a time came when they no longer remained at Rivendell. However, that could mean that they moved somewhere else in ME or that they died as easily as it could that they went West. > It also says of Celeborn (in the above), that with him went "the > last living memory of the elder days in middle earth". This > would be, Celeborn himself, and also Cirdan. The last two > survivors of the 1st age. Technically Cirdan and very possibly Celeborn predated even the first age, and this might refer to the REALLY 'elder' days. In any case I think JRRT was here referring >only< to Celeborn as I believe Cirdan had already departed. > And so finally, the last, absolutely *very last*, once-and-for- > all-LAST SHIP would have left the now-deserted havens, containing > Cirdan, Celeborn, and Elladan & Elrohir. I tend to think that Elladan and Elrohir became mortal, but there aren't any conclusive texts on this either way that I know of (though they would be a contradiction of Elrond's ship carrying away the last of the Noldor). As noted above I think Cirdan was already gone... and as for Celeborn, I don't think he was the last. Indeed, I don't think there WAS an officially recognized 'last ship' to sail into the West. While the Noldor may have been gone there were other Elves in Middle Earth who could seek out the West and could have continued to do so in dribs and drabs for centuries as the dominion of Men spread. At that there were sparse references to >Men< chancing upon the straight path in rare cases long after. I'd suggest that the 'last ship' was either some last wood elf who decided to set sail for the legendary West or that indeed there never was a 'last ship' and journeys into the West would continue (with ever greater irregularity) until the End. ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 18:52:03 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 76 Message-ID: <95hk0h$f77$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <94oaiv$cle$6@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.207 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 03 18:52:03 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 marin1.sfba.home.com[4100F445] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x59.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.207 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31769 In article , "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: > "Bill Taylor" wrote in message > news:94oaiv$cle$6@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz... > > > > > Then there is of course the ship bearing away the three > > ringbearers, and Frodo & Bilbo. I would guess, again, that > > Tolkien initially intended this to be the *very* last elven-ship > > to Aman. > > This seems likely, though the intent could have been the last ship > to sail from that particular haven (though Celeborn was implied to > have sailed from the Havens thereafter). The same could be said of > the Pelargir poem. My own take is that it was the last ship of the > >Noldor< (see below).> > I agree, though for a somewhat different version. > > > Now as stated above, Cirdan is also intending to wait for the > > last ship. At the start of the 3rd-age chronology he says "as for > > me, my heart is with the sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores > > until the last ship sails". The strong implication is that he > > intends to BE on it. For corroboration... Appendix A I(iii): "At > > the Grey Havens dwelt Cirdan the shipwright, and some say he > > dwells there still, until the last ship sets sail into the west". > > A more detailed account of Cirdan's words and their meaning can be > found at the very end of The Silmarillion (Of the Rings of Power); > > "'But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the > grey shores, guarding the Havens until the last ship sails. Then I > shall await thee.' > White was that ship and long was it a-building, and long it > awaited the end of which Cirdan had spoken. ... In that time the > last of the Noldor set sail from the Havens and left Middle-earth > for ever. And latest of all the Keepers of the Three Rings rode > to the Sea, and Master Elrond took there the ship that Cirdan had > made ready." > > This strongly implies (to me) that the ship of Elrond was the 'last > ship' that Cirdan had been waiting on, that it took the very last > of the Noldor out of Middle Earth, and that Cirdan himself took > that ship into the West. This also seems especially likely to me > as otherwise Legolas would not have been forced to build his own > ship rather than sailing from the Havens. > > I tend to think that Elladan and Elrohir became mortal, but there > aren't any conclusive texts on this either way that I know of > (though they would be a contradiction of Elrond's ship carrying > away the last of the Noldor). As noted above I think Cirdan was > already gone... and as for Celeborn, I don't think he was the last. > Indeed, I don't think there WAS an officially recognized 'last > ship' to sail into the West. While the Noldor may have been gone > there were other Elves in Middle Earth who could seek out the West Many seem to think that the last of the Noldor sailed on Elrond's ship, but the facts do not bear this out. In the 'Epilogue' Sam mentions to Elanor that there are still a number of Noldor that remained after Elrond Sailed and would remain for a time. Of course the 'Epilogue' can be taken as not 'canonical' and contradicted by the published Silmarillion. However the 'Prologue' to the (canonical) LotR states that "...though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained, together with some of the High-elven folk." These 'High-elven folk' refers to the Noldor. Tar-Elenion -- He is a warrior and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <94oaiv$cle$6@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> <95hk0h$f77$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Lines: 38 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 03:18:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.9 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 981256731 12.79.22.9 (Sun, 04 Feb 2001 03:18:51 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 03:18:51 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!204.127.161.3!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.72!wnfilter2!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31850 "Tar-Elenion" wrote in message news:95hk0h$f77$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Many seem to think that the last of the Noldor sailed on Elrond's > ship, but the facts do not bear this out. Well, Of the Rings of Power states it directly so it is not an unreasonable view. > In the 'Epilogue' Sam mentions to Elanor that there are still a > number of Noldor that remained after Elrond Sailed and would > remain for a time. Actually, he says 'High Elves' rather than Noldor. That could as easily refer to Celeborn, Thranduil, or other Sindarin elves. However, if Elladan or Elrohir chose to be counted amongst the Elves they could reasonably be called 'Noldor' (despite small percentages of such ancestry)... so that 'bloodline' can't be ruled out entirely either. > However the 'Prologue' to the (canonical) LotR states that > "...though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained, together > with some of the High-elven folk." These 'High-elven folk' refers > to the Noldor. Again, High-elven need not necessarily mean Noldor. The High Elves were the Noldor AND the Sindar. We know that there was at least one Sinda (Celeborn) there, and there is the direct statement in Rings of Power to indicate that the Noldor had left. No more canonical than the Epilogue bit you referred to, but overall I don't think there is anything showing that there were definitely still Noldor in Middle Earth after the 'last ship' of Elrond et alia. I noted the possibility (in contradiction of Tolkien's statement) in my earlier post, but there is nothing showing it with certainty. ###### From: skylar@starfleet.attglobal.net (Skylar Thompson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 13:55:36 GMT Organization: Utumno Lines: 18 Sender: skylar@utumno.attglobal.net Distribution: World Message-ID: References: <94oaiv$cle$6@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> <95hk0h$f77$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: skylar@attglobal.net (Skylar Thompson) X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.9d - NLS NNTP-Posting-Host: 32.101.12.152 X-Trace: 4 Feb 2001 16:03:56 GMT, 32.101.12.152 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prserv.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!129.240.148.23!uio.no!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!newsfeed2.us.ibm.net!ibm.net!news3.prserv.net!rhino_house.attglobal.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31970 In , "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: [snip] >Again, High-elven need not necessarily mean Noldor. The High >Elves were the Noldor AND the Sindar. What about the Vanyar? [snip] --Skylar Thompson (skylar@attglobal.net) `All that is gold does not glitter/Not all who wander are lost The old that is strong does not wither/Deep roots are not reached by the frost From the ashes a fire shall be woken/A light from the shadows shall spring Renewed shall be blade that was broken/The crownless again shall be king.' ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <94oaiv$cle$6@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> <95hk0h$f77$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <2cff6.29312$cN.1376892@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 16:12:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.73.102 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 981303166 12.78.73.102 (Sun, 04 Feb 2001 16:12:46 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 16:12:46 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31853 "Skylar Thompson" wrote in message news:c1.2c.2ZBwwS$2An@rhino_house.attglobal.net... > In , "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: >> Again, High-elven need not necessarily mean Noldor. The High >> Elves were the Noldor AND the Sindar. > What about the Vanyar? There weren't any in Middle Earth. The term 'high elves' was a Middle Earth description. If there were Vanyar (or Teleri) from Valinor in Middle Earth they would certainly have been included in that group, but as it was it referred only to the Noldor and the Sindar. ###### From: "Michael Kocher" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 13:13:16 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <94oaiv$cle$6@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> <95hk0h$f77$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <2cff6.29312$cN.1376892@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 28 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32086 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:2cff6.29312$cN.1376892@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > "Skylar Thompson" wrote in message > news:c1.2c.2ZBwwS$2An@rhino_house.attglobal.net... > > > In , > "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: > > >> Again, High-elven need not necessarily mean Noldor. The High > >> Elves were the Noldor AND the Sindar. > > > What about the Vanyar? > > There weren't any in Middle Earth. The term 'high elves' was a > Middle Earth description. If there were Vanyar (or Teleri) from > Valinor in Middle Earth they would certainly have been included in > that group, but as it was it referred only to the Noldor and the > Sindar. > > > The Vanyar were called such because they never went back to Middle-earth. Which is kinda sad... poor Ingwe never got to see the beauty of Middle-earth. ###### From: "Michael Kocher" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 15:01:12 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <94oaiv$cle$6@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> <95hk0h$f77$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <95kn6a$rfs$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32088 "Meneldil" wrote in message news:95kn6a$rfs$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk... > In article , > conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net says... > > >Again, High-elven need not necessarily mean Noldor. The High > >Elves were the Noldor AND the Sindar. > > Sorry - I'm a little confused. I thought the High Elves were *only* those who > actually went to Valinor and saw the light of the Trees? I'd therefore have > thought that the Telerin blokes who stayed back in Beleriand would *not* be > High Elves. Have I missed something? I probably have - it's most irritating > not to be able to refer to the books. > > Cheers, > > Meneldil > The Sindar were the "Grey Elves" so called because they were halfway between the Avari and the High-elves. They could see the light of valinor in the faces of both Melian(being a maia) and Elwe(because he had visited Valinor along with Finwe and Ingwe). So, their arts, culture, etc... was almost as "high" as that of the Noldor. ###### From: meneldil@my-deja.com (Meneldil) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: 4 Feb 2001 23:04:42 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 16 Message-ID: <95kn6a$rfs$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> References: <94oaiv$cle$6@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> <95hk0h$f77$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lib_0200_6149.cpc.uea.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: cpca14.uea.ac.uk 981327882 28156 139.222.126.149 (4 Feb 2001 23:04:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uea.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Feb 2001 23:04:42 GMT X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!fu-berlin.de!server1.netnews.ja.net!news.uea.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32028 In article , conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net says... >Again, High-elven need not necessarily mean Noldor. The High >Elves were the Noldor AND the Sindar. Sorry - I'm a little confused. I thought the High Elves were *only* those who actually went to Valinor and saw the light of the Trees? I'd therefore have thought that the Telerin blokes who stayed back in Beleriand would *not* be High Elves. Have I missed something? I probably have - it's most irritating not to be able to refer to the books. Cheers, Meneldil ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <94oaiv$cle$6@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> <95hk0h$f77$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <95kn6a$rfs$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Lines: 66 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <3Bmf6.13803$mA1.812563@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 00:37:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.25.31 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 981333439 12.79.25.31 (Mon, 05 Feb 2001 00:37:19 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 00:37:19 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32047 "Meneldil" wrote in message news:95kn6a$rfs$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk... > Sorry - I'm a little confused. I thought the High Elves were > *only* those who actually went to Valinor and saw the light of > the Trees? The problem is that the meanings of these terms changed quite a bit and they were sometimes used in different ways even within the same text. So, when I say that 'high elves' means 'the Noldor and the Sindar' rather than being synonymous with 'Calaquendi' I'm relying on the most inclusive definition. There are certainly many cases where the 'High Elves' were synonymous with the 'Calaquendi', but there were also cases where they were not; "In the beginning of this age many of the High Elves still remained. Most of these dwelt in Lindon west of the Ered Luin; but before the building of the Barad-dur many of the Sindar passed eastward, and some established realms in the forests far away, where their people were mostly Silvan Elves." RotK, Appendix B - The Second Age This includes Sindar as a subset of the High Elves. In other cases they are separated out as the 'Grey Elves'. Then there are wacky cases where terms are equated and yet contradict themselves; "The Elves far back in the Elder days became divided into two main branches: the West-elves (the Eldar) and the East-elves. ... Of the Eldarin tongues two are found in this book: the High- elven or Quenya, and the Grey-elven or Sindarin." RotK, Appendix F - Of the Elves Here the 'High-elven' language is Quenya and specifically excludes Sindarin. Yet at the same time the 'Eldar' or 'West-elves' are those who speak either Quenya or Sindarin... while in other cases only the Calaquendi are Eldar, and in yet others all Elves are Eldar. If I had to make a guess at the 'most common' definitions I'd probably go with; Eldar - Those elves which set out on the Great Journey Avari - Those elves that refused the Great Journey Nandor - Elves that left the Great Journey before Beleriand Calaquendi/Light Elves - Those elves who reached Aman High Elves - Those elves who reached Aman Grey Elves - The Sindar and Falathrim Moriquendi/Dark Elves - The Avari, Nandor and Silvan Elves Sindar - Elves of Doriath Falathrim - Elves of the Falas under Cirdan Laiquendi/Green Elves - Nandor who later entered Beleriand West Elves - The High Elves and Grey Elves East Elves - The Avari, Nandor and Silvan Elves Silvan Elves - Mixed group descendants of the Avari and Nandor Vanyar - Elves of the first host Noldor - Elves of the second host Teleri - Elves of the third host >who reached Aman< That said, just because something might be the most often used definition does not make it the correct one in all cases. So the indication that 'High Elves' remained after Elrond left could be taken to mean 'Noldor' (in contradiction of the 'Of the Rings of Power' passage saying the Noldor were all gone) or 'Sindar'. ###### From: "David Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <94oaiv$cle$6@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> <95hk0h$f77$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <2cff6.29312$cN.1376892@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 01:37:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.62.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.mi.home.com 981337065 24.0.62.34 (Sun, 04 Feb 2001 17:37:45 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 17:37:45 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.mi.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32101 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:2cff6.29312$cN.1376892@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > "Skylar Thompson" wrote in message > news:c1.2c.2ZBwwS$2An@rhino_house.attglobal.net... > > > In , > "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: > > >> Again, High-elven need not necessarily mean Noldor. The High > >> Elves were the Noldor AND the Sindar. > > > What about the Vanyar? > > There weren't any in Middle Earth. The term 'high elves' was a > Middle Earth description. If there were Vanyar (or Teleri) from > Valinor in Middle Earth they would certainly have been included in > that group, but as it was it referred only to the Noldor and the > Sindar. According to the index to _The Silmarillion_, _Tareldar_ "High Elves" refers to any of the Elves who dwelt or had dwelt in Aman, which would include the Vanyar and the Teleri. In the index to LotR "High Elves" refers specifically to the Noldor (probably because they are the only High Elves incountered in the book). I think you are confusing High Elves and Eldar. _Eldar_ includes the Sindar. Dave ###### From: "Matthew Harris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <94oaiv$cle$6@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> <95hk0h$f77$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <95kn6a$rfs$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> <3Bmf6.13803$mA1.812563@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Lines: 13 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 06:35:44 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.180.186.166 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 981380555 209.180.186.166 (Mon, 05 Feb 2001 07:42:35 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 07:42:35 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!grolier!spacestar!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32078 >Sindar - Elves of Doriath >Falathrim - Elves of the Falas under Cirdan >Laiquendi/Green Elves - Nandor who later entered Beleriand The Sindar would be all elves that took Thingol as their King. This would include the elves of the Falas, and I believe the elves of Ossiriand. Remember, all of Beleriand was Thingol's realm, he just allowed the Noldor to camp out. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 10:30:34 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <84ot7t0srkj7cl2a7qirj3lg6qvk3770l0@4ax.com> References: <94oaiv$cle$6@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> <95hk0h$f77$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <95kn6a$rfs$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> <3Bmf6.13803$mA1.812563@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!do.de.uu.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!grolier!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32103 On Mon, 5 Feb 2001 06:35:44 -0700, "Matthew Harris" wrote: > >The Sindar would be all elves that took Thingol as their King. This would >include the elves of the Falas, and I believe the elves of Ossiriand. >Remember, all of Beleriand was Thingol's realm, he just allowed the Noldor >to camp out. > Well, sort of. Thingol 'allowed the Noldor to camp out' because as the sons of Feanor noted he didn't have the wherewithall to stop them. the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Please don't congregate in groups. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <94oaiv$cle$6@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> <95hk0h$f77$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <95kn6a$rfs$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> <3Bmf6.13803$mA1.812563@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 22:21:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.89.145.3 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 981411692 12.89.145.3 (Mon, 05 Feb 2001 22:21:32 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 22:21:32 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32049 "Matthew Harris" wrote in message news:f5yf6.469$iu2.72144@news.uswest.net... > The Sindar would be all elves that took Thingol as their King. > This would include the elves of the Falas, and I believe the > elves of Ossiriand. While 'Sindar' often includes the Falathrim I can't think of any case where it included the Laiquendi, and in several cases it did not. The Silmarillion index definition specifically excludes them for instance. ###### From: "Matthew Harris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <94oaiv$cle$6@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> <95hk0h$f77$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <95kn6a$rfs$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> <3Bmf6.13803$mA1.812563@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Lines: 24 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 18:47:31 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.180.185.248 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 981424471 209.180.185.248 (Mon, 05 Feb 2001 19:54:31 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 19:54:31 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32082 > >While 'Sindar' often includes the Falathrim I can't think of any >case where it included the Laiquendi, and in several cases it did >not. The Silmarillion index definition specifically excludes them >for instance. > > > I stand corrected. Of course, (as is always the case on RABT), this brings up another subject. Were Vanyar, Noldor, Sindar, etc ethnic definitions or political ones? The Green Elves were ethnically not Sindarin, but could be considered politically Sindarin since they took Thingol to be their king. Later on, the populations of Lindon, Eregion, Imladris, Lorien and Thranduils' realm were probably a mix of Noldor, Sindar and Silvan, but were under the political rule of either Noldor or Sindar. On top of this, the Noldor to a great degree abandoned thier own language, and I know of no ethnic customs that would seperate a Noldor from a Sindar. So was a Noldor (such as Glorfindel) who presumably spoke Sindarin and lived under the rule of a Sindar such as Elrond, considered Noldor or Sindar? ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 02:25:02 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 58 Message-ID: <95nn9n$2di$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <94oaiv$cle$6@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> <95hk0h$f77$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.207 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Feb 06 02:25:02 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 marin1.sfba.home.com[4100F445] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.207 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32013 In article , "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: > "Tar-Elenion" wrote in message > news:95hk0h$f77$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > Many seem to think that the last of the Noldor sailed on Elrond's > > ship, but the facts do not bear this out. > > Well, Of the Rings of Power states it directly so it is not an > unreasonable view. True but 'RoP' (IMO) is contradicted by LotR. > > > In the 'Epilogue' Sam mentions to Elanor that there are still a > > number of Noldor that remained after Elrond Sailed and would > > remain for a time. > > Actually, he says 'High Elves' rather than Noldor. That could as > easily refer to Celeborn, Thranduil, or other Sindarin elves. > However, if Elladan or Elrohir chose to be counted amongst the > Elves they could reasonably be called 'Noldor' (despite small > percentages of such ancestry)... so that 'bloodline' can't be > ruled out entirely either. > > > However the 'Prologue' to the (canonical) LotR states that > > "...though Elrond had departed, his sons long remained, together > > with some of the High-elven folk." These 'High-elven folk' refers > > to the Noldor. > > Again, High-elven need not necessarily mean Noldor. The High > Elves were the Noldor AND the Sindar. We know that there was at > least one Sinda (Celeborn) there, and there is the direct statement > in Rings of Power to indicate that the Noldor had left. No more > canonical than the Epilogue bit you referred to, but overall I > don't think there is anything showing that there were definitely > still Noldor in Middle Earth after the 'last ship' of Elrond et > alia. I noted the possibility (in contradiction of Tolkien's > statement) in my earlier post, but there is nothing showing it with > certainty. > > In LotR only the Noldor are defined as High Elves. Index: High Elves: the Noldor. App. F: High-elven = Quenya, Grey-elven = Sindarin. App. B: I note you mention below that you read Sindar in this as being a subcatagory under High Elves but I read it as distinct especially considering that the Index specifically defines High Elves as Noldor. Tar-Elenion -- He is a warrior and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### Lines: 13 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 06 Feb 2001 04:23:34 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010205232334.18743.00001937@ng-fi1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32058 >So was a Noldor >(such as Glorfindel) who presumably spoke Sindarin and lived under the rule >of a Sindar such as Elrond, considered Noldor or Sindar? I would have called Elrond a Noldor. He is Noldor on his father's side, and Sindar on his mother's, (leaving out his human blood), and my guess would be that in Tolkien the father's ancestry would be the "official" one. In addition, I would think that the fact that he possessed the chief of the Three Rings would mark him as the most powerful Elf in Middle-Earth during the Third Age, and it seems to me that the Noldor are generally considered wiser and more powerful, "greater" in other words, than the Sindar. Gaius Maximus ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 05:29:42 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 40 Message-ID: <95o23v$b9o$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20010205232334.18743.00001937@ng-fi1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.207 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Feb 06 05:29:42 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 marin1.sfba.home.com[4100F445] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x59.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.207 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32006 In article <20010205232334.18743.00001937@ng-fi1.aol.com>, gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) wrote: > >So was a Noldor > >(such as Glorfindel) who presumably spoke Sindarin and lived under the rule > >of a Sindar such as Elrond, considered Noldor or Sindar? > > I would have called Elrond a Noldor. He is Noldor on his father's side, and > Sindar on his mother's, (leaving out his human blood), and my guess would be > that in Tolkien the father's ancestry would be the "official" one. In > addition, I would think that the fact that he possessed the chief of the Three > Rings would mark him as the most powerful Elf in Middle-Earth during the Third > Age, and it seems to me that the Noldor are generally considered wiser and more > powerful, "greater" in other words, than the Sindar. > > Gaius Maximus > I would call him Peredhel. JRRT noted that noted of Elrond's lineage "that he [Elrond] preferred that of Elwe" over his lineage to Finwe (see PoME, Problem of Ros). Galadriel is likely the most powerful Noldo in the Third Age (though she is only a quarter Noldo and half Teler). Part of what might make Elrond more powerful is his Maia heritage. Tar-Elenion -- He is a warrior and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### Lines: 17 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 06 Feb 2001 06:19:39 GMT References: <95o23v$b9o$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010206011939.17491.00002072@ng-mi1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32060 >I would call him Peredhel. JRRT noted that noted of Elrond's >lineage "that he [Elrond] preferred that of Elwe" over his lineage to >Finwe (see PoME, Problem of Ros). Interesting. Although it's not surprising considering some his early experiences with the descendants of Finwe. I'm still working my way through HoME. >Galadriel is likely the most powerful >Noldo in the Third Age (though she is only a quarter Noldo and half >Teler). Part of what might make Elrond more powerful is his Maia >heritage. I figured it was either him or Galadriel. Hard to say for sure, and not much basis for judgement, (at least not that I know of). Gaius Maximus ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 12:13:10 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <20010205232334.18743.00001937@ng-fi1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.5f X-Server-Date: 6 Feb 2001 17:12:38 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32116 Quoth GaiusMax in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>So was a Noldor >>(such as Glorfindel) who presumably spoke Sindarin and lived under the rule >>of a Sindar such as Elrond, considered Noldor or Sindar? > >I would have called Elrond a Noldor. Pray don't, unless you would call Gandalf a Wizards or Aragorn a Men. Based on his Noldorin ancestry, I do agree with you in placing him among the Noldor, but that makes him a Noldo. The FAQ actually goes into this. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Lines: 7 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 06 Feb 2001 20:20:57 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010206152057.07828.00003469@ng-mq1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32143 >Pray don't, unless you would call Gandalf a Wizards or Aragorn a >Men. Oops. I knew that, but it completely slipped my mind. That should teach me not to post so late at night. Gaius Maximus ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <94oaiv$cle$6@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> <95hk0h$f77$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <95kn6a$rfs$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> <3Bmf6.13803$mA1.812563@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Lines: 37 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <3w%f6.16573$mA1.975573@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 23:10:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.73.32 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 981501055 12.78.73.32 (Tue, 06 Feb 2001 23:10:55 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 23:10:55 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!netnews.com!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32136 "Matthew Harris" wrote in message news:rPIf6.2347$XV6.482404@news.uswest.net... > I stand corrected. Of course, (as is always the case on RABT), > this brings up another subject. Were Vanyar, Noldor, Sindar, etc > ethnic definitions or political ones? I'd say they were cultural, and thus 'ethnic', distinctions. Quendi belonged to whichever group they lived with... generally this meant the group they were born into, but there were plenty of cases of Elves with small portions of Noldor blood still being accounted Noldo... and also text suggesting that Avari who joined other groups could become members of those groups. > The Green Elves were ethnically not Sindarin, but could be > considered politically Sindarin since they took Thingol to be > their king. Of course, the Laiquendi were originally Teleri... who followed Elwe, aka Thingol. So they might be considered to be reaffirming a lapsed political affiliation. Still, there were clear cultural differences... and hence a different term for them. Likewise with the Falathrim - they were very much subjects of Thingol and had the same history as the Elves of Doriath, but they dwelt near the sea and pursued a different lifestyle, and so had a different 'cultural name'. > So was a Noldor (such as Glorfindel) who presumably spoke > Sindarin and lived under the rule of a Sindar such as Elrond, > considered Noldor or Sindar? A Noldo. Definitely. Galadriel lived in Doriath under Thingol's rule and spoke Sindarin, but was very clearly and definitely a Noldo. Neither she nor Glorfindel was ever described as a Sinda. ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 23:58:50 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 27 Message-ID: <95q33l$55b$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <94oaiv$cle$6@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> <95hk0h$f77$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <95kn6a$rfs$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> <3Bmf6.13803$mA1.812563@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3w%f6.16573$mA1.975573@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.207 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Feb 06 23:58:50 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 marin1.sfba.home.com[4100F445] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.207 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32130 In article <3w%f6.16573$mA1.975573@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote:> > So was a Noldor (such as Glorfindel) who presumably spoke > > Sindarin and lived under the rule of a Sindar such as Elrond, > > considered Noldor or Sindar? > > A Noldo. Definitely. Galadriel lived in Doriath under Thingol's > rule and spoke Sindarin, but was very clearly and definitely a > Noldo. Neither she nor Glorfindel was ever described as a Sinda. > > "It might be possible, though inconsistant, to suppose that Glorfindel was a prince of Sindarin origin who had joined the host of Turgon, but this would entirely contradict what is said of Glorfindel in Rivendell..." (PoME). (A probably vain attempt to be mildly amusing.) Tar-Elenion -- He is a warrior and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### Lines: 34 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 07 Feb 2001 03:06:05 GMT References: <20010205232334.18743.00001937@ng-fi1.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010206220605.03780.00001534@nso-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32150 In article <20010205232334.18743.00001937@ng-fi1.aol.com>, gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) writes: >>So was a Noldor >>(such as Glorfindel) who presumably spoke Sindarin and lived under the rule >>of a Sindar such as Elrond, considered Noldor or Sindar? > >I would have called Elrond a Noldor. He is Noldor on his father's side, and >Sindar on his mother's, (leaving out his human blood), and my guess would be >that in Tolkien the father's ancestry would be the "official" one. One of Tar-Elenion's quotes is that Elrond preferred to count his heritage on his mother's side (i.e. the Sindarin/Maian side). T-E can provide the exact cite. > In >addition, I would think that the fact that he possessed the chief of the >Three >Rings would mark him as the most powerful Elf in Middle-Earth during the >Third >Age, Galadriel was Calaquendi and much older than Elrond ans possessed a Ring of her own. I think that puts her over the top. BTW, was it ever actually stated which of the Three Ringswas the chief? > and it seems to me that the Noldor are generally considered wiser and >more >powerful, "greater" in other words, than the Sindar. True, but his mother's side was not merely Sindar. On his mother's side he was descended from Calaquendi (Thingol) and Maia (Melian). Russ ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 04:00:03 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 68 Message-ID: <95qh7v$h1i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20010205232334.18743.00001937@ng-fi1.aol.com> <20010206220605.03780.00001534@nso-ch.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.207 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Feb 07 04:00:03 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 marin1.sfba.home.com[4100F445] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.207 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32133 In article <20010206220605.03780.00001534@nso-ch.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > In article <20010205232334.18743.00001937@ng-fi1.aol.com>, gaiusmax@aol.com > (GaiusMax) writes: > > >>So was a Noldor > >>(such as Glorfindel) who presumably spoke Sindarin and lived under the rule > >>of a Sindar such as Elrond, considered Noldor or Sindar? > > > >I would have called Elrond a Noldor. He is Noldor on his father's side, and > >Sindar on his mother's, (leaving out his human blood), and my guess would be > >that in Tolkien the father's ancestry would be the "official" one. > > One of Tar-Elenion's quotes is that Elrond preferred to count his heritage on > his mother's side (i.e. the Sindarin/Maian side). T-E can provide the exact > cite. > Already did.;) > > In > >addition, I would think that the fact that he possessed the chief of the > >Three > >Rings would mark him as the most powerful Elf in Middle-Earth during the > >Third > >Age, > > Galadriel was Calaquendi and much older than Elrond ans possessed a Ring of her > own. I think that puts her over the top. BTW, was it ever actually stated > which of the Three Ringswas the chief? > Yes, well sort of. But Gaius Max is, I think, refering to LotR, 'The Grey Havens', "Elrond wore a mantle of grey and had a star upon his forhead, and a silver harp was in his hand, and upon his finger was a ring of gold with a great blue stone, Vilya, mightiest of the Three." > > and it seems to me that the Noldor are generally considered wiser and > >more > >powerful, "greater" in other words, than the Sindar. > > True, but his mother's side was not merely Sindar. On his mother's side he was > descended from Calaquendi (Thingol) and Maia (Melian). > > Russ > -- He is a warrior and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### Lines: 30 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 07 Feb 2001 04:39:29 GMT References: <20010206220605.03780.00001534@nso-ch.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010206233929.27968.00001453@ng-md1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32142 >Galadriel was Calaquendi and much older than Elrond ans possessed a Ring of >her >own. I think that puts her over the top. BTW, was it ever actually stated >which of the Three Ringswas the chief? In The Grey Havens, (pg. 308), "...and upon his finger was a ring of a gold with a great blue stone, Vilya, mightiest of the Three." I was persuaded to put Elrond above Galadriel by this, and the fact that had there still been a High King of the Noldor in M-E, it would have been Elrond, (purely genealogically, anyway), a fact which Gil-galad seemed to acknowledge by giving Elrond his ring. Along those lines, was Gil-galad a Calaquendi? I seem to recall reading that he was born in M-E, but I could be mistaken. >One of Tar-Elenion's quotes is that Elrond preferred to count his heritage on >his mother's side (i.e. the Sindarin/Maian side). T-E can provide the exact >cite. If I am (approximately) half German and half Polish, but considered myself to be Polish, does that make me more Polish than I would otherwise be? I think the answer to that depends on how one defines one's identity. From a strictly biological perspective, I would still be half and half, and so would Elrond. >True, but his mother's side was not merely Sindar. On his mother's side he >was >descended from Calaquendi (Thingol) and Maia (Melian). Good point there. Gaius Maximus ###### From: "Matthew Harris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20010205232334.18743.00001937@ng-fi1.aol.com> Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Lines: 11 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 22:38:51 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.180.184.94 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 981524747 209.180.184.94 (Tue, 06 Feb 2001 23:45:47 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 23:45:47 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32154 >>I would have called Elrond a Noldor. > >Pray don't, unless you would call Gandalf a Wizards or Aragorn a >Men. > Can I convince anyone that I am a native Chinese speaker and that I would therefore, indeed, call Gandalf a wizards? ###### From: "David Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20010206220605.03780.00001534@nso-ch.aol.com> <20010206233929.27968.00001453@ng-md1.aol.com> Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Lines: 37 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: <5Sag6.285260$hD4.69411568@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com> Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 12:05:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.62.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.mi.home.com 981547521 24.0.62.34 (Wed, 07 Feb 2001 04:05:21 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 04:05:21 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.tele.dk!216.218.192.242!news.he.net!feeder.via.net!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.mi.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32159 "GaiusMax" wrote in message news:20010206233929.27968.00001453@ng-md1.aol.com... > >Galadriel was Calaquendi and much older than Elrond ans possessed a Ring of > >her > >own. I think that puts her over the top. BTW, was it ever actually stated > >which of the Three Ringswas the chief? > > In The Grey Havens, (pg. 308), "...and upon his finger was a ring of a gold > with a great blue stone, Vilya, mightiest of the Three." I was persuaded to > put Elrond above Galadriel by this, and the fact that had there still been a > High King of the Noldor in M-E, it would have been Elrond, (purely > genealogically, anyway), a fact which Gil-galad seemed to acknowledge by giving > Elrond his ring. Along those lines, was Gil-galad a Calaquendi? I seem to > recall reading that he was born in M-E, but I could be mistaken. In any of the later versions of Gil-galad's parentage at least one of his parents was a Calaquende. Whether or not that makes him a Calaquende is to me uncertain. According to the "official" version in The Silmarillion the Calaquendi were those of the Eldar who had seen the Light of the Trees. Calaquendi and Tareldar (High Elves, High Eldar) are synonymous terms, both refer to Elves who live in or had lived in Aman. Are any of the Elves that were born in M-E (Elrond, Celebrian, Gil-galad, Maeglin, etc.) called High Elves? Dave ###### Lines: 37 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 07 Feb 2001 15:01:26 GMT References: <20010206233929.27968.00001453@ng-md1.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010207100126.02315.00006252@nso-fi.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32144 In article <20010206233929.27968.00001453@ng-md1.aol.com>, gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) writes: >>Galadriel was Calaquendi and much older than Elrond ans possessed a Ring of >>her >>own. I think that puts her over the top. BTW, was it ever actually stated >>which of the Three Ringswas the chief? > >In The Grey Havens, (pg. 308), "...and upon his finger was a ring of a gold >with a great blue stone, Vilya, mightiest of the Three." I was persuaded to >put Elrond above Galadriel by this, and the fact that had there still been a >High King of the Noldor in M-E, it would have been Elrond, (purely >genealogically, anyway), a fact which Gil-galad seemed to acknowledge by >giving >Elrond his ring. Along those lines, was Gil-galad a Calaquendi? I seem to >recall reading that he was born in M-E, but I could be mistaken. There are several later texts that have him being a child at about the time Nargothrond was sacked, so the answer is no, he is not a Calaquendi. >>One of Tar-Elenion's quotes is that Elrond preferred to count his heritage >on >>his mother's side (i.e. the Sindarin/Maian side). T-E can provide the exact >>cite. > >If I am (approximately) half German and half Polish, but considered myself to >be Polish, does that make me more Polish than I would otherwise be? I think >the answer to that depends on how one defines one's identity. From a >strictly >biological perspective, I would still be half and half, and so would Elrond. But Elrond is at best 1/4 Noldo, since his father Earendil was half edain and half Noldo. On his mother's side Elrond is Sinda and human with an eighth maia thrown in. Russ ###### Lines: 12 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 07 Feb 2001 19:16:12 GMT References: <5Sag6.285260$hD4.69411568@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010207141612.28035.00001415@ng-md1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32140 >According to the "official" version in The Silmarillion the Calaquendi were >those of the Eldar who had seen the Light of the Trees. Calaquendi and >Tareldar (High Elves, High Eldar) are synonymous terms, both refer to Elves >who live in or had lived in Aman. Are any of the Elves that were born in M-E >(Elrond, Celebrian, Gil-galad, Maeglin, etc.) called High Elves? It is my understanding that to be a Calaquendi, you actually had to have seen the Trees yourself. Thus any Elves born after the destruction of the Trees would not count as Calaquendi. So my question about Gil-galad was really whether he was born before the destruction of the Trees or not. Gaius Maximus ###### Lines: 19 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 07 Feb 2001 19:21:11 GMT References: <20010207100126.02315.00006252@nso-fi.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010207142111.28035.00001417@ng-md1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32230 >But Elrond is at best 1/4 Noldo, since his father Earendil was half edain and >half Noldo. On his mother's side Elrond is Sinda and human with an eighth >maia >thrown in. Well, I left out the human blood on the grounds that it does not seem to have any relevance to the question of which type of Elf Elrond is. I'm not sure if it counts at all given that he chose to be an Elf, but that's not really relevant to the issue at hand. Just to clearly set out his geneaology, he is 25% Noldor, 31.25% Sindar, (provided that you count Thingol here), 37.5 % Edain, and 6.25% Maiar. So, he is obviously more Sindar than Noldor from the standpoint of pure numbers. Whether that means anything, I don't know. However, I don't think that the size of the numbers really affects the question of whether what race one consideres oneself has any effect on what race one actually is. Gaius Maximus ###### Lines: 27 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 07 Feb 2001 19:48:50 GMT References: <20010207142111.28035.00001417@ng-md1.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010207144850.16594.00005691@nso-cg.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32258 In article <20010207142111.28035.00001417@ng-md1.aol.com>, gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) writes: >>But Elrond is at best 1/4 Noldo, since his father Earendil was half edain >and >>half Noldo. On his mother's side Elrond is Sinda and human with an eighth >>maia >>thrown in. > >Well, I left out the human blood on the grounds that it does not seem to have >any relevance to the question of which type of Elf Elrond is. I'm not sure >if >it counts at all given that he chose to be an Elf, but that's not really >relevant to the issue at hand. Just to clearly set out his geneaology, he is >25% Noldor, 31.25% Sindar, (provided that you count Thingol here), 37.5 % >Edain, and 6.25% Maiar. So, he is obviously more Sindar than Noldor from the >standpoint of pure numbers. Whether that means anything, I don't know. >However, I don't think that the size of the numbers really affects the >question >of whether what race one consideres oneself has any effect on what race one >actually is. > That's certainly true since Gil-galad was considered Noldo, indeed High King of the Noldor, even though he was mostly Teleri. Russ ###### Lines: 15 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 07 Feb 2001 21:15:13 GMT References: <20010207144850.16594.00005691@nso-cg.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010207161513.24451.00001911@ng-ch1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32226 >That's certainly true since Gil-galad was considered Noldo, indeed High King >of >the Noldor, even though he was mostly Teleri. So, I suppose it really comes down to whether the true race of a mixed Elf is based on what he considers himself to be, or through some form patriarchal inheritance, ie, Gil-galad was considered a Noldo because his father was. I believe it was the latter, but I will admit that I don't have any solid evidence to back me up, just a gut feeling. I will say, however, that I don't know of any Elf other than Elrond who was considered to be of his mother's race rather than his father's because he identified himself with that side more strongly. Gaius Maximus ###### Lines: 39 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 07 Feb 2001 22:38:46 GMT References: <20010207161513.24451.00001911@ng-ch1.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010207173846.03780.00001735@nso-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32256 In article <20010207161513.24451.00001911@ng-ch1.aol.com>, gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) writes: >>That's certainly true since Gil-galad was considered Noldo, indeed High King >>of >>the Noldor, even though he was mostly Teleri. > >So, I suppose it really comes down to whether the true race of a mixed Elf is >based on what he considers himself to be, or through some form patriarchal >inheritance, ie, Gil-galad was considered a Noldo because his father was. I >believe it was the latter, but I will admit that I don't have any solid >evidence to back me up, just a gut feeling. I will say, however, that I >don't >know of any Elf other than Elrond who was considered to be of his mother's >race >rather than his father's because he identified himself with that side more >strongly. That's not the only example. The children of Finwe and Indis (a Vanya) were half-Vanyar yet they are obviously considered to be Noldor. And Finarfin's children are merely a quarter Noldor since Finarfin married a Telerin princess and no one question's Galadriel and Finrod's Noldo-ness. It should be noted however, that one text had Finarfin's children growing up with the Teleri of Alqualonde and speaking Telerin as the first language. I've noticed the Teleri seem to place higher stock in women overall. Muriel the Noldo and Indis the Vanya appear to be pretty tepid. Compare that to mostly Teler Galadriel who in one story fought against the Feanoreans at the Kinslaying and seems to have Celeborn's fruit in a box on her nightstand. And the Sindarin Teleri, after all have the examples of Melian and Luthien. Elwing led the fugitives from Doriath. The Sindar had no problem of having a King inherit the throne through the female line (i.e. Dior) whereas that didn't happen among the Noldor. That is not to say there aren't stong women among the "genetically" Noldo - Idril comes to mind. But the characters of Aredhel, Finduilas and Muriel aren't exactly strong. Russ ###### Lines: 27 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 07 Feb 2001 23:08:52 GMT References: <20010207173846.03780.00001735@nso-ch.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010207180852.18756.00002572@ng-fi1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32234 >That's not the only example. The children of Finwe and Indis (a Vanya) were >half-Vanyar yet they are obviously considered to be Noldor. And Finarfin's >children are merely a quarter Noldor since Finarfin married a Telerin >princess >and no one question's Galadriel and Finrod's Noldo-ness. It should be noted >however, that one text had Finarfin's children growing up with the Teleri of >Alqualonde and speaking Telerin as the first language. I said that I knew of no other examples in which an Elf identified himself with his mother's race over his father's, (although Maeglin now springs to mind). All these other examples are of children adhering to their father's race rather than their mother's and thus support my point. >The Sindar had no problem of having a King >inherit the throne through the female line (i.e. Dior) whereas that didn't >happen among the Noldor. I agree with your point about Telerin women in general, (which is quite an interesting one), but in this case there were only two descendants of Thingol, Luthien and Dior. In order to avoid going through the female line, they would have had to choose a king from a different family entirely. I can't think of any examples among the Noldor when it would have made sense to pass a kingship to a female line, as the Noldor never seemed short of royal males. The fact that the High Kingship did not descend from Gil-galad to Elrond, who was an heir in the female line, but rather lapsed entirely, may support your point. Gaius Maximus ###### Lines: 41 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 07 Feb 2001 23:46:02 GMT References: <20010207180852.18756.00002572@ng-fi1.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010207184602.00714.00005748@nso-md.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32255 In article <20010207180852.18756.00002572@ng-fi1.aol.com>, gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) writes: >I agree with your point about Telerin women in general, (which is quite an >interesting one), but in this case there were only two descendants of >Thingol, >Luthien and Dior. In order to avoid going through the female line, they >would >have had to choose a king from a different family entirely. Depends on what you mean by entirely. It would have passed to the line of Thingol's brother Elmo and thus likely to Celeborn (who was grandson of Elmo and assuming they could find him since he and Galadriel had already entered Eriador) or Celeborn's father (assuming he survived the sacking of Doriath by the Dwarves), whose name I cannot remember. However, the Noldo did precisely what you say. When Turgon son of Fingolfin died, the High Kingship did not pass to Earendil through Idril (which would have been a direct analog of Dior's heirship). Rather it passed outside the entire Fingolfinian line over to Gil-galad of the Finarfinian line, who was at best 25% Noldo. > I can't think of >any examples among the Noldor when it would have made sense to pass a >kingship >to a female line, as the Noldor never seemed short of royal males. But again, the Sindar had the entire line of Elmo with royal males. Instead they had a female line heir - and a *mortal* at that. When the Noldor were presented with the identical situation they went outside Fingolfin's line and the crown went to a male-line heir in the Finarfinian line. >The fact >that the High Kingship did not descend from Gil-galad to Elrond, who was an >heir in the female line, but rather lapsed entirely, may support your point. I think it does too (although Tar Elenion would not agree ). In fact, the distintion I outlined above basically is my argument that Noldorin and Sindarin inheritance systems were different. Russ ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 00:10:20 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 45 Message-ID: <95so56$f92$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20010207100126.02315.00006252@nso-fi.aol.com> <20010207142111.28035.00001417@ng-md1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.207 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Feb 08 00:10:20 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 marin1.sfba.home.com[4100F445] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.207 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!fu-berlin.de!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32169 In article <20010207142111.28035.00001417@ng-md1.aol.com>, gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) wrote: > >But Elrond is at best 1/4 Noldo, since his father Earendil was half edain and > >half Noldo. On his mother's side Elrond is Sinda and human with an eighth > >maia > >thrown in. > > Well, I left out the human blood on the grounds that it does not seem to have > any relevance to the question of which type of Elf Elrond is. I'm not sure if > it counts at all given that he chose to be an Elf, but that's not really > relevant to the issue at hand. Just to clearly set out his geneaology, he is > 25% Noldor, 31.25% Sindar, (provided that you count Thingol here), 37.5 % > Edain, and 6.25% Maiar. So, he is obviously more Sindar than Noldor from the > standpoint of pure numbers. Whether that means anything, I don't know. > However, I don't think that the size of the numbers really affects the question > of whether what race one considers oneself has any effect on what race one > actually is. > > Gaius Maximus > > Elrond is actually 37.5% Adan, 6.25% Maia, 6.25% Teler, 25% Sinda, 9.375% Noldo, 15.625% Vanya. Tar-Elenion -- He is a warrior and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 00:23:40 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 68 Message-ID: <95sou4$g3a$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20010207173846.03780.00001735@nso-ch.aol.com> <20010207180852.18756.00002572@ng-fi1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.207 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Feb 08 00:23:40 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 marin1.sfba.home.com[4100F445] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x59.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.207 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.seicom.net!news-in.ivm.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32179 In article <20010207180852.18756.00002572@ng-fi1.aol.com>, gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) wrote: > >That's not the only example. The children of Finwe and Indis (a Vanya) were > >half-Vanyar yet they are obviously considered to be Noldor. And Finarfin's > >children are merely a quarter Noldor since Finarfin married a Telerin > >princess > >and no one question's Galadriel and Finrod's Noldo-ness. It should be noted > >however, that one text had Finarfin's children growing up with the Teleri of > >Alqualonde and speaking Telerin as the first language. > > I said that I knew of no other examples in which an Elf identified himself with > his mother's race over his father's, (although Maeglin now springs to mind). > All these other examples are of children adhering to their father's race rather > than their mother's and thus support my point. > > >The Sindar had no problem of having a King > >inherit the throne through the female line (i.e. Dior) whereas that didn't > >happen among the Noldor. > > I agree with your point about Telerin women in general, (which is quite an > interesting one), but in this case there were only two descendants of Thingol, > Luthien and Dior. In order to avoid going through the female line, they would > have had to choose a king from a different family entirely. Not really, there were various descendents of Thingol's brother Elmo about (in particular Celeborn). I can't think of > any examples among the Noldor when it would have made sense to pass a kingship > to a female line, as the Noldor never seemed short of royal males. The fact > that the High Kingship did not descend from Gil-galad to Elrond, who was an > heir in the female line, but rather lapsed entirely, may support your point. > There are other veiws on this (Russ and I have had some extensive :) debates on the subject, search for a thread entitled New King of the Eldar). Their are several reasons that the High Kingship may not have gone to Elrond (although in early versions it was Elrond, not Gil-galad who ruled after the overthrow of Morgoth) including that he preferred to reckon his lineage to Thingol. The rule of the Noldor also passed to the eldest male of the House of Finwe (exclusive of the dispossessed Fenorian's). Tar-Elenion -- He is a warrior and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 01:45:07 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 18 Message-ID: <95stn2$k71$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20010207180852.18756.00002572@ng-fi1.aol.com> <20010207184602.00714.00005748@nso-md.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.206 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Feb 08 01:45:07 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 marin1.sfba.home.com[4100F443] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.206 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32173 In article <20010207184602.00714.00005748@nso-md.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > I think it does too (although Tar Elenion would not agree ). > Russ > Hehehe :)- Tar-Elenion -- He is a warrior and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### Lines: 49 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 08 Feb 2001 01:49:37 GMT References: <20010207184602.00714.00005748@nso-md.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010207204937.18597.00002468@ng-fi1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32236 >Depends on what you mean by entirely. It would have passed to the line of >Thingol's brother Elmo and thus likely to Celeborn (who was grandson of Elmo >and assuming they could find him since he and Galadriel had already entered >Eriador) or Celeborn's father (assuming he survived the sacking of Doriath by >the Dwarves), whose name I cannot remember. Good point. I completely forgot about this line, probably because the story of Celeborn's origins kept changing around so much. >However, the Noldo did precisely what you say. When Turgon son of Fingolfin >died, the High Kingship did not pass to Earendil through Idril (which would >have been a direct analog of Dior's heirship). Rather it passed outside the >entire Fingolfinian line over to Gil-galad of the Finarfinian line, who was >at >best 25% Noldo. Well, the whole thing about the Noldor system of inheritance gets a bit complicated. Why did the High Kingship pass from Fingon to Turgon in the first place, rather than to Fingon's son, Gil-galad? I can think of two possible explanations for this. 1) that Gil-galad was too young to assume such a high position of responsibility, or 2) that the Noldor prefer to exhaust an older generation before passing on to a younger, ie, they go from older brother to younger until they run out of brothers, then move on to the eldest brothers sons. In either case, Gil-galad is a more natural choice for a successor to Turgon than Earendil. In the first case, Gil-galad, though young, was much older than Earendil who was still a child at this point, and in the second case, he is the oldest male of his generation. The only grounds for supposing that Earendil would be the natural heir to Turgon would be if the Noldor worked through a system of strict primogeniture, which is obviously not the case since Gil-galad was already passed over. >But again, the Sindar had the entire line of Elmo with royal males. Instead >they had a female line heir - and a *mortal* at that. When the Noldor were >presented with the identical situation they went outside Fingolfin's line and >the crown went to a male-line heir in the Finarfinian line. Are you perhaps looking at a different text than I am? In the published form of Silm, Gil-galad is Fingolfin's grandson. >I think it does too (although Tar Elenion would not agree ). In fact, the >distintion I outlined above basically is my argument that Noldorin and >Sindarin >inheritance systems were different. It is an interesting theory. I'm not argueing that it's not valid, only that the Noldor were never in a position where the passed over an obvious candidate from a female line. Gaius Maximus ###### Lines: 8 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 08 Feb 2001 01:52:55 GMT References: <95so56$f92$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010207205255.18597.00002470@ng-fi1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32232 >Elrond is actually 37.5% Adan, 6.25% Maia, 6.25% Teler, 25% Sinda, >9.375% Noldo, 15.625% Vanya. You're right, I didn't take it back far enough. What was Idril's mother, anyway? I see you counted Thingol as a Teler rather than a Sinda. I wasn't sure where to put him. Oh, well. Gaius Maximus ###### From: "Matthew Harris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20010207161513.24451.00001911@ng-ch1.aol.com> <20010207173846.03780.00001735@nso-ch.aol.com> Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Lines: 28 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 20:44:03 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.180.186.154 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 981604263 209.180.186.154 (Wed, 07 Feb 2001 21:51:03 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 21:51:03 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32264 >I've noticed the Teleri seem to place higher stock in women overall. Muriel >the Noldo and Indis the Vanya appear to be pretty tepid. Compare that to >mostly Teler Galadriel who in one story fought against the Feanoreans at the >Kinslaying and seems to have Celeborn's fruit in a box on her nightstand I thought about this, and it seems to be true. And then I thought about it more, and I have a theory why. I think that it could be argued that the Vanyar and the Noldor were in general a little less tough then the Teleri, and definitly had less to deal with. The Teleri of Aman, even during the long peace, were busy sailing on their ships, and I imagine that even amongst the Teleri, occasionally a mariner died. The Teleri also preferred to to live in the slightly more wild, star lit isle of Eressea. This probably toughened them up a bit. The Teleri of Middle Earth were obviously in even more rough circumstances, even during Morgoth's captivity, there was evil things abroad. In contrast, what was the worst danger the Vanyar faced? Getting sunburned from basking in the glow of Varda? No doubt about it, the Teleri were the most hardcore of the elves. ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 04:01:48 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 30 Message-ID: <95t5n9$qhi$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <95so56$f92$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20010207205255.18597.00002470@ng-fi1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.207 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Feb 08 04:01:48 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 marin1.sfba.home.com[4100F445] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.207 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32182 In article <20010207205255.18597.00002470@ng-fi1.aol.com>, gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) wrote: > >Elrond is actually 37.5% Adan, 6.25% Maia, 6.25% Teler, 25% Sinda, > >9.375% Noldo, 15.625% Vanya. > > You're right, I didn't take it back far enough. What was Idril's mother, > anyway? I see you counted Thingol as a Teler rather than a Sinda. I wasn't > sure where to put him. Oh, well. > > Gaius Maximus > Idril's mother was Elenwe of the Vanyar. I counted Thingol as one of the Teleri since he was one of the Calaquendi (and more for completeness, since the Sindar are Teleri anyways). Elrond's Sindarin blood comes from Nimloth (Lindis, Elulin) wife of Dior. Nimloth is the great grandaughter of Elmo, brother of Thingol. Tar-Elenion -- He is a warrior and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 04:20:41 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 82 Message-ID: <95t6qj$reb$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20010207184602.00714.00005748@nso-md.aol.com> <20010207204937.18597.00002468@ng-fi1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.207 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Feb 08 04:20:41 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 marin1.sfba.home.com[4100F445] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x61.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.207 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!feeder.qis.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32184 In article <20010207204937.18597.00002468@ng-fi1.aol.com>, gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) wrote: Russ writes: > >However, the Noldo did precisely what you say. When Turgon son of Fingolfin > >died, the High Kingship did not pass to Earendil through Idril (which would > >have been a direct analog of Dior's heirship). Rather it passed outside the > >entire Fingolfinian line over to Gil-galad of the Finarfinian line, who was > >at > >best 25% Noldo. >Gaius Maximus writes: > Well, the whole thing about the Noldor system of inheritance gets a bit > complicated. Why did the High Kingship pass from Fingon to Turgon in the first > place, rather than to Fingon's son, Gil-galad? I can think of two possible > explanations for this. 1) that Gil-galad was too young to assume such a high > position of responsibility, or 2) that the Noldor prefer to exhaust an older > generation before passing on to a younger, ie, they go from older brother to > younger until they run out of brothers, then move on to the eldest brothers > sons. In either case, Gil-galad is a more natural choice for a successor to > Turgon than Earendil. In the first case, Gil-galad, though young, was much > older than Earendil who was still a child at this point, and in the second > case, he is the oldest male of his generation. The only grounds for supposing > that Earendil would be the natural heir to Turgon would be if the Noldor worked > through a system of strict primogeniture, which is obviously not the case since > Gil-galad was already passed over. > Tar-Elenion writes: Earendil was only 7 at this time. I tend to note one reason Maedhros said Fingolfin should take up the kingship is because Fingolfin was the eldest (male) of the House of Finwe. The Kingship passed in that manner. When Gil-galad was Fingons son Turgon still became High King. When Fingon had various other children that were not Gil-galad (as mentioned in the genealogies), Turgon still became High King. Russ writes: > >But again, the Sindar had the entire line of Elmo with royal males. Instead > >they had a female line heir - and a *mortal* at that. When the Noldor were > >presented with the identical situation they went outside Fingolfin's line and > >the crown went to a male-line heir in the Finarfinian line. > Gaius Maximus writes: > Are you perhaps looking at a different text than I am? In the published form > of Silm, Gil-galad is Fingolfin's grandson. > Tar-Elenion writes: Gil-galad was Fingon's son in one conception. In other conceptions he was descended from Feanor, the son of Finrod Felagund, and the latest makes him the son of Orodreth (who becomes the son of Angrod, not of Finarfin) (see PoME for some details). -- He is a warrior and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### Lines: 56 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 08 Feb 2001 04:30:14 GMT References: <20010207204937.18597.00002468@ng-fi1.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010207233014.00714.00005800@nso-md.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32239 In article <20010207204937.18597.00002468@ng-fi1.aol.com>, gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) writes: > >>However, the Noldo did precisely what you say. When Turgon son of Fingolfin >>died, the High Kingship did not pass to Earendil through Idril (which would >>have been a direct analog of Dior's heirship). Rather it passed outside the >>entire Fingolfinian line over to Gil-galad of the Finarfinian line, who was >>at >>best 25% Noldo. > >Well, the whole thing about the Noldor system of inheritance gets a bit >complicated. Why did the High Kingship pass from Fingon to Turgon in the >first >place, rather than to Fingon's son, Gil-galad? So glad that you asked . Actually, CJRT admitted making GG the son of Fingon in the published Silmarillion was a mistake. The only place that appears is a scribbled pencilled note. As CJRT, it was nothing more than an ephermeral idea. For basically the lat 30 years of JRRT's life, GG was a Finarfinian - first son of Finrod and later son of Orodreth. > I can think of two possible >explanations for this. 1) that Gil-galad was too young to assume such a high >position of responsibility, or 2) that the Noldor prefer to exhaust an older >generation before passing on to a younger, ie, they go from older brother to >younger until they run out of brothers, then move on to the eldest brothers >sons. In either case, Gil-galad is a more natural choice for a successor to >Turgon than Earendil. In the first case, Gil-galad, though young, was much >older than Earendil who was still a child at this point, and in the second >case, he is the oldest male of his generation. The only grounds for >supposing >that Earendil would be the natural heir to Turgon would be if the Noldor >worked >through a system of strict primogeniture, which is obviously not the case >since >Gil-galad was already passed over. > >>But again, the Sindar had the entire line of Elmo with royal males. Instead >>they had a female line heir - and a *mortal* at that. When the Noldor were >>presented with the identical situation they went outside Fingolfin's line >and >>the crown went to a male-line heir in the Finarfinian line. > >Are you perhaps looking at a different text than I am? In the published form >of Silm, Gil-galad is Fingolfin's grandson. See above. Russ ###### Lines: 13 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 08 Feb 2001 04:30:14 GMT References: <95so56$f92$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010207233014.00714.00005801@nso-md.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32240 In article <95so56$f92$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Tar-Elenion writes: >Elrond is actually 37.5% Adan, 6.25% Maia, 6.25% Teler, 25% Sinda, >9.375% Noldo, 15.625% Vanya. Wait, that cannot be right. His grandmother was Idril who I think was 100% Noldor. That makes him 25% Noldo. The only Vanya he had in him was through Idril's grandmother Indis, so that would be 1/16. I think there's couple of mistakes in your calculation. Russ ###### Lines: 10 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 08 Feb 2001 04:31:37 GMT References: <95t5n9$qhi$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010207233137.00714.00005805@nso-md.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-hub.siol.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32246 In article <95t5n9$qhi$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Tar-Elenion writes: >Idril's mother was Elenwe of the Vanyar. Completely forgot about that. Russ ###### Lines: 11 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 08 Feb 2001 05:15:21 GMT References: <20010207233014.00714.00005800@nso-md.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010208001521.07835.00002782@ng-mq1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32233 >So glad that you asked . Actually, CJRT admitted making GG the son of >Fingon in the published Silmarillion was a mistake. The only place that >appears is a scribbled pencilled note. As CJRT, it was nothing more than an >ephermeral idea. For basically the lat 30 years of JRRT's life, GG was a >Finarfinian - first son of Finrod and later son of Orodreth. That's very interesting, and of course, it only mucks up the problem of Noldorin succession even further. :) Oh, well. Thanks for enlightening me. Gaius Maximus ###### Lines: 52 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 08 Feb 2001 14:44:30 GMT References: <95t6qj$reb$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010208094430.29597.00006468@nso-mi.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32263 In article <95t6qj$reb$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Tar-Elenion writes: >Tar-Elenion writes: >Earendil was only 7 at this time. I tend to note one reason Maedhros >said Fingolfin should take up the kingship is because Fingolfin was the >eldest (male) of the House of Finwe. The Kingship passed in that >manner. When Gil-galad was Fingons son Turgon still became High King. You're giving that way too much credence. The GG as Fingon's son was a scribbled note on an established text that CJRT stated was merely an ephemeral idea. You're assuming it was some sort of established idea that was simply inserted into the existing story. That is not the case. Had Tolkien actually adopted the idea of GG being son of Fingon, you cannot assume that he would not have changed portions affected by that idea. >When Fingon had various other children that were not Gil-galad (as >mentioned in the genealogies), Turgon still became High King. > >Russ writes: >> >But again, the Sindar had the entire line of Elmo with royal males. >Instead >> >they had a female line heir - and a *mortal* at that. When the >Noldor were >> >presented with the identical situation they went outside Fingolfin's >line and >> >the crown went to a male-line heir in the Finarfinian line. >> >Gaius Maximus writes: >> Are you perhaps looking at a different text than I am? In the >published form >> of Silm, Gil-galad is Fingolfin's grandson. >> >Tar-Elenion writes: >Gil-galad was Fingon's son in one conception. In other conceptions he >was descended from Feanor, the son of Finrod Felagund, and the latest >makes him the son of Orodreth (who becomes the son of Angrod, not of >Finarfin) (see PoME for some details). I don't think that gives a fair summary of the changes. IIRC, there were two early referenced to GG being a Feanorean - both pre published LOTR. One was in some early annal (Annal of Beleriand I think) and the other was in an early draft of LOTR. GG as a Feanorean never appeared in any post 1950 work. Everything after that had GG coming from the line of Finarfin, *except* for the one scribbed note that CJRT admits was an ephemeral idea and a mistake to use as the basis for his edited published SIlmarillion. To put these various conceptions on the same level I think misstates their relative importance. For example, you cannot validly compare one scribbled note that was never revisited (i.e. GG as son of Fingon) to numerous entries that are consistent over decades of writing (i.e. GG from the line of Finarfin). Russ ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:46:19 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <20010205232334.18743.00001937@ng-fi1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 13 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32314 On Tue, 6 Feb 2001 22:38:51 -0700, "Matthew Harris" wrote: > Can I convince anyone that I am a native Chinese speaker and that I would >therefore, indeed, call Gandalf a wizards? > Try that one on Biil Hsu! the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- 'Sarcasm: the last resort of modest and chaste-souled people when the privacy of their soul is coarsely and intrusively invaded' - Dostoevsky (after Paddy) ###### From: "Matthew Harris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20010205232334.18743.00001937@ng-fi1.aol.com> Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Lines: 7 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:02:51 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.180.186.100 X-Trace: news.uswest.net 981662993 209.180.186.100 (Thu, 08 Feb 2001 14:09:53 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 14:09:53 CST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.tele.dk!204.71.34.15!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news-out.uswest.net!news.uswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32268 >Try that one on Biil Hsu! > Where is the Dr. ? I haven't noticed any of his posts since I activly rejoinedthis newsgroup. ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 00:06:16 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 36 Message-ID: <95vc9k$mmr$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <95so56$f92$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20010207233014.00714.00005801@nso-md.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.207 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Feb 09 00:06:16 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 marin1.sfba.home.com[4100F445] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.207 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32188 In article <20010207233014.00714.00005801@nso-md.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > In article <95so56$f92$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Tar-Elenion > writes: > > >Elrond is actually 37.5% Adan, 6.25% Maia, 6.25% Teler, 25% Sinda, > >9.375% Noldo, 15.625% Vanya. > > Wait, that cannot be right. His grandmother was Idril who I think was 100% > Noldor. That makes him 25% Noldo. The only Vanya he had in him was through > Idril's grandmother Indis, so that would be 1/16. > > I think there's couple of mistakes in your calculation. > > Russ > His grandmother Idril was the daughter of Torgon who was 75% Noldo and 25% Vanya. Idril's mother was Elenwe of the Vanyar. Thus Idril was 50% Vanya from her mother and 12.5% Vanya from her father, a total of 62.5% Vanya. That makes Earendil 31.25% Vanya. That makes Elrond 15.625% Vanya. Tar-Elenion (I have a calculator, and I know how to use it). :)- -- He is a warrior and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 00:07:47 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 25 Message-ID: <95vccf$mnj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <95t5n9$qhi$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20010207233137.00714.00005805@nso-md.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.207 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Feb 09 00:07:47 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 marin1.sfba.home.com[4100F445] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.207 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32194 In article <20010207233137.00714.00005805@nso-md.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > In article <95t5n9$qhi$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Tar-Elenion > writes: > > >Idril's mother was Elenwe of the Vanyar. > > Completely forgot about that. > > Russ Okay. > > -- He is a warrior and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <95t6qj$reb$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20010208094430.29597.00006468@nso-mi.aol.com> Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 00:18:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.73.225 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 981677910 12.78.73.225 (Fri, 09 Feb 2001 00:18:30 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 00:18:30 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32216 "Russ" wrote in message news:20010208094430.29597.00006468@nso-mi.aol.com... > The GG as Fingon's son was a scribbled note on an established > text that CJRT stated was merely an ephemeral idea. True, but that doesn't really affect the point that he remained High King whether as Fingon's son, Finrod's, Orodreth's, a Feanorian, or what have you. Tolkien changed his ancestry repeatedly without any apparent concern about it affecting his position. > For example, you cannot validly compare one scribbled note that > was never revisited (i.e. GG as son of Fingon) to numerous > entries that are consistent over decades of writing (i.e. GG from > the line of Finarfin). So... we cannot validly compare a scribbled note that was never revisited (i.e. that there were at most seven Balrogs) to the numerous entries that are consistent over decades of writing (i.e. armies of Balrogs)? ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 00:49:47 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 114 Message-ID: <95ver9$olm$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <95t6qj$reb$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20010208094430.29597.00006468@nso-mi.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.207 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Feb 09 00:49:47 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 marin1.sfba.home.com[4100F445] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.207 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32190 In article <20010208094430.29597.00006468@nso-mi.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > In article <95t6qj$reb$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Tar-Elenion > writes: > > >Tar-Elenion writes: > >Earendil was only 7 at this time. I tend to note one reason Maedhros > >said Fingolfin should take up the kingship is because Fingolfin was the > >eldest (male) of the House of Finwe. The Kingship passed in that > >manner. When Gil-galad was Fingons son Turgon still became High King. > > You're giving that way too much credence. The GG as Fingon's son was a > scribbled note on an established text that CJRT stated was merely an ephemeral > idea. You're assuming it was some sort of established idea that was simply I am not assuming anything. I am stating the simple fact that in one conception Gil-galad was Fingon's son. I do not know how long this idea lasted, nor does CT say how long this lasted, he does not seem to know. _CT_ says it was merely an ephermeral idea, that is his interpretation. I find no fault with it, but it does not change the fact that in this conception Turgon still became High King, there are no indications that JRRT intended to change anything related to that. I can just as accurately say that you cannot assume Gil-galad would have remained the son of Orodreth. JRRT changed his mind on Gil-galad's parentage numerous times. He could have done so again. > inserted into the existing story. That is not the case. Had Tolkien actually > adopted the idea of GG being son of Fingon, you cannot assume that he would not > have changed portions affected by that idea. > I cannot assume that he would change other portions of the story either. There is no indication that Gil-galad being Fingon's son or Finrod's son or Orodreth's son would have any effect on the story (other than someone needing a wife or not). In any event Fingon had other children in versions of the story. Turgon still inherited the title. > >Gaius Maximus writes: > >> Are you perhaps looking at a different text than I am? In the > >published form > >> of Silm, Gil-galad is Fingolfin's grandson. > >> > >Tar-Elenion writes: > >Gil-galad was Fingon's son in one conception. In other conceptions he > >was descended from Feanor, the son of Finrod Felagund, and the latest > >makes him the son of Orodreth (who becomes the son of Angrod, not of > >Finarfin) (see PoME for some details). > > I don't think that gives a fair summary of the changes. I gave a brief summary and it is not innaccurate (which CT's summary is). I gave the cite for anyone interested in the details as given by CT (who is not accurate). IIRC, there were two > early referenced to GG being a Feanorean - both pre published LOTR. One was in > some early annal (Annal of Beleriand I think) and the other was in an early > draft of LOTR. GG as a Feanorean never appeared in any post 1950 work. > Everything after that had GG coming from the line of Finarfin, *except* for the > one scribbed note that CJRT admits was an ephemeral idea and a mistake to use > as the basis for his edited published SIlmarillion. To put these various > conceptions on the same level I think misstates their relative importance. I did not put them on any level. I stated the _simple_ facts and gave a cite for the detailed (though innaccurate) explanation. For > example, you cannot validly compare I did not compare anything. one scribbled note that was never revisited > (i.e. GG as son of Fingon) to numerous entries that are consistent over decades > of writing (i.e. GG from the line of Finarfin). > > Russ > I do not think you are being fair. It might be more accurate to say that the most numerous entries over decades have Gil-galad as the son of Felagund. You also neglect to mention that Gil-galad as a Finarfinian _never_ appeared in _any_ of the genealogical tables. Tar-Elenion -- He is a warrior and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### Lines: 115 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 09 Feb 2001 02:24:24 GMT References: <95ver9$olm$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010208212424.03780.00001947@nso-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.flash.net!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32245 In article <95ver9$olm$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Tar-Elenion writes: >> You're giving that way too much credence. The GG as Fingon's son was >a >> scribbled note on an established text that CJRT stated was merely an >ephemeral >> idea. You're assuming it was some sort of established idea that was >simply > > >I am not assuming anything. I am stating the simple fact that in one >conception Gil-galad was Fingon's son. I do not know how long this idea >lasted, nor does CT say how long this lasted, he does not seem to know. But it appears *ONLY* once in a scribbled pencilled note. It is never explored. Never expanded upon. And subsequent writings place GG firmly in the Finarfinians. >_CT_ says it was merely an ephermeral idea, that is his interpretation. >I find no fault with it, but it does not change the fact that in this >conception Turgon still became High King, there are no indications that >JRRT intended to change anything related to that. So. No one is dusputing that. >I can just as accurately say that you cannot assume Gil-galad would >have remained the son of Orodreth. JRRT changed his mind on Gil-galad's >parentage numerous times. He could have done so again. Yet for 20 years he remained a Finarfinian. You're going to have to come up with more than a pencilled note that was never followed up upon. >> inserted into the existing story. That is not the case. Had Tolkien >actually >> adopted the idea of GG being son of Fingon, you cannot assume that he >would not >> have changed portions affected by that idea. >> > >I cannot assume that he would change other portions of the story >either. There is no indication that Gil-galad being Fingon's son or >Finrod's son or Orodreth's son would have any effect on the story >(other than someone needing a wife or not). In any event Fingon had >other children in versions of the story. Turgon still inherited the >title. Again. What's the point. Turon always becomes High King no matter where GG ends up. The salient issue is who inherits *after* Turgon. > > >Gaius Maximus writes: >> >> Are you perhaps looking at a different text than I am? In the >> >published form >> >> of Silm, Gil-galad is Fingolfin's grandson. >> >> >> >Tar-Elenion writes: >> >Gil-galad was Fingon's son in one conception. In other conceptions he >> >was descended from Feanor, the son of Finrod Felagund, and the latest >> >makes him the son of Orodreth (who becomes the son of Angrod, not of >> >Finarfin) (see PoME for some details). >> >> I don't think that gives a fair summary of the changes. > >I gave a brief summary and it is not innaccurate (which CT's summary >is). I gave the cite for anyone interested in the details as given by >CT (who is not accurate). I think it was inaccurate. It equated a single pencilled note with 20 years of consistent writing that GG was of the line of Finarfin. > IIRC, there were two >> early referenced to GG being a Feanorean - both pre published LOTR. >One was in >> some early annal (Annal of Beleriand I think) and the other was in an >early >> draft of LOTR. GG as a Feanorean never appeared in any post 1950 >work. >> Everything after that had GG coming from the line of Finarfin, >*except* for the >> one scribbed note that CJRT admits was an ephemeral idea and a >mistake to use >> as the basis for his edited published SIlmarillion. To put these >various >> conceptions on the same level I think misstates their relative >importance. > >I did not put them on any level. I stated the _simple_ facts and gave a >cite for the detailed (though innaccurate) explanation. > > For >> example, you cannot validly compare > >I did not compare anything. You did impliedely. > >one scribbled note that was never revisited >> (i.e. GG as son of Fingon) to numerous entries that are consistent >over decades >> of writing (i.e. GG from the line of Finarfin). >> >> Russ >> > >I do not think you are being fair. It might be more accurate to say >that the most numerous entries over decades have Gil-galad as the son >of Felagund. >You also neglect to mention that Gil-galad as a Finarfinian _never_ >appeared in _any_ of the genealogical tables. So? There were *no* late genealogical tables for the Noldorin princely families. Russ ###### Lines: 29 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 09 Feb 2001 02:24:24 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010208212424.03780.00001948@nso-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!panix!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32248 In article , "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: >> The GG as Fingon's son was a scribbled note on an established >> text that CJRT stated was merely an ephemeral idea. > >True, but that doesn't really affect the point that he remained >High King whether as Fingon's son, Finrod's, Orodreth's, a >Feanorian, or what have you. Tolkien changed his ancestry >repeatedly without any apparent concern about it affecting his >position. Not true. You are compring three isolated incidents against decades of consistency. >> For example, you cannot validly compare one scribbled note that >> was never revisited (i.e. GG as son of Fingon) to numerous >> entries that are consistent over decades of writing (i.e. GG from >> the line of Finarfin). > >So... we cannot validly compare a scribbled note that was never >revisited (i.e. that there were at most seven Balrogs) to the >numerous entries that are consistent over decades of writing (i.e. >armies of Balrogs)? I've always been of the opinion that post LOTR writings trump pre-LOTR writing out of hand. Russ ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 18:51:45 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <08k68t0hf2ks8f99oq1mnvdcu612gbdhc9@4ax.com> References: <20010205232334.18743.00001937@ng-fi1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!grolier!freenix!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32296 On Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:02:51 -0700, "Matthew Harris" wrote: >>Try that one on Biil Hsu! >> >Where is the Dr. ? I haven't noticed any of his posts since I activly >rejoinedthis newsgroup. > I believe that he is devoting his time to corrupting the young. It's his job after all. the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "reproduces if added to its quotation." reproduces if added to its quotation. ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 03:49:07 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 121 Message-ID: <95vpbh$1al$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <95ver9$olm$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20010208212424.03780.00001947@nso-ch.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.207 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Feb 09 03:49:07 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 marin1.sfba.home.com[4100F445] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.207 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!feeder.qis.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32183 In article <20010208212424.03780.00001947@nso-ch.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > In article <95ver9$olm$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Tar-Elenion > writes: > > >> You're giving that way too much credence. The GG as Fingon's son was > >a > >> scribbled note on an established text that CJRT stated was merely an > >ephemeral > >> idea. You're assuming it was some sort of established idea that was > >simply > > > > > >I am not assuming anything. I am stating the simple fact that in one > >conception Gil-galad was Fingon's son. I do not know how long this idea > >lasted, nor does CT say how long this lasted, he does not seem to know. > > But it appears *ONLY* once in a scribbled pencilled note. It is never explored. > Never expanded upon. And subsequent writings place GG firmly in the > Finarfinians. > It does not matter where Gil-galad was placed. My point is not whose son Gil-galad should be. I am not concerned with that. I am fully aware of the relevant history. This is why I do not debate whose son he should be, it is not important to me. I am only interested in the variations. (I point this out in the same manner on other boards and take hit from those who seem to think I am saying Gil-galad should be Rodnor or Finellach when they want him to be Findor). > >_CT_ says it was merely an ephermeral idea, that is his interpretation. > >I find no fault with it, but it does not change the fact that in this > >conception Turgon still became High King, there are no indications that > >JRRT intended to change anything related to that. > > So. No one is dusputing that. You are implying (or perhaps I am infering) that when you state that I 'can't assume that JRRT would not have changed portions affected by that idea'. > > >I can just as accurately say that you cannot assume Gil-galad would > >have remained the son of Orodreth. JRRT changed his mind on Gil- galad's > >parentage numerous times. He could have done so again. > > Yet for 20 years he remained a Finarfinian. You're going to have to come up > with more than a pencilled note that was never followed up upon. > To do what? I have not said anything more than Gil-galad was son of Fingon in one variant. Turgon still became High King. I Fingon had other children when Gil-galad was not his son. Turgon still became High King. > Again. What's the point. Turon always becomes High King no matter where GG ends > up. The salient issue is who inherits *after* Turgon. No the salient issue is how the title passed. It passed to the eldest male of the House of Finwe (exclusive of the Dispossessed). Before there was a Gil-galad it was Elrond who had Gil-galad's place ruling in the west of the world. > > >I gave a brief summary and it is not innaccurate (which CT's summary > >is). I gave the cite for anyone interested in the details as given by > >CT (who is not accurate). > > I think it was inaccurate. It equated a single pencilled note with 20 years of > consistent writing that GG was of the line of Finarfin. > It did not equate anything. I stated simple facts. My intent was not to give a history lesson. I directed the readers to the relevant material with CT's (albiet inaccurate) summation. > > > >I did not compare anything. > > You did impliedely. You (incorrectly) inferred that. I did not imply that. > > >You also neglect to mention that Gil-galad as a Finarfinian _never_ > >appeared in _any_ of the genealogical tables. > > So? There were *no* late genealogical tables for the Noldorin princely > families. > 1959 is fairly late. > Russ > Tar-Elenion -- He is a warrior and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### Lines: 62 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 10 Feb 2001 00:02:56 GMT References: <95vpbh$1al$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010209190256.16594.00006138@nso-cg.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32257 In article <95vpbh$1al$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Tar-Elenion writes: >> Yet for 20 years he remained a Finarfinian. You're going to have to >come up >> with more than a pencilled note that was never followed up upon. >> > >To do what? I have not said anything more than Gil-galad was son of >Fingon in one variant. Turgon still became High King. I Fingon had >other children when Gil-galad was not his son. Turgon still became High >King. My objection (which is too strong a word) is that you don't put the statements in context. If you simply say in some versions he was a Feanorean, in others a Fingolfinian and in others a Finafinian, I think that leaves the incorrect impression that the latter conception is the one that last longer by far then the others and was the last conception before he died. Let me use another example. You could just as easily say that Beren was an Elf in some conceptions and a Man in others. This, like your statements on GG is true as far as it goes, but I don't think anyone would seriously argue that Tolkien didn't really make up his mind on the matter and even though there was no final public draft that its pretty much certain Tolkien intended Beren to be a Human. All I'm saying is that statments concerning different versions of stories should be put into context. > >> Again. What's the point. Turon always becomes High King no matter >where GG ends >> up. The salient issue is who inherits *after* Turgon. > >No the salient issue is how the title passed. It passed to the eldest >male of the House of Finwe (exclusive of the Dispossessed). Before >there was a Gil-galad it was Elrond who had Gil-galad's place ruling in >the west of the world. However, this is where I think you make a false assumption. You're assuming that by making the single scribbled note regarding GG being son of Fingon that Tolkien had fully considered all the implications and adopted all the ancillary changes that would entail (for example, that the inheritance of the High Kingship would change in a significant way). Indeed, I would arge that the fact that Tolkien never repeated or further explored the idea of GG being son of Fingon would imply that upon more serious reflection he didn't like the ancillary changes such a lineage would create. >> > >You also neglect to mention that Gil-galad as a Finarfinian _never_ >> >appeared in _any_ of the genealogical tables. nor did he as son of Fingon. In fact, I don't think GG ever appeared in any genealogical table, although I'll have to check the text on that one. Neverthless, Tolkien certainly created numerous narrative descriptions of GG's family tree. Russ ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20010208212424.03780.00001948@nso-ch.aol.com> Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 00:20:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.89.144.173 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 981764441 12.89.144.173 (Sat, 10 Feb 2001 00:20:41 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 00:20:41 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!24.30.200.2.MISMATCH!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32222 "Russ" wrote in message news:20010208212424.03780.00001948@nso-ch.aol.com... I had said of Gil-galad; >> Tolkien changed his ancestry repeatedly without any apparent >> concern about it affecting his position. > Not true. You are compring three isolated incidents against > decades of consistency. Not true? How? In various versions Tolkien changed Gil-Galad's ancestry, but GG still became High King. Tolkien never indicated that one of these changes in ancestry would invalidate Gil-Galad's claim to the High Kingship. Tar-Elenion has noted that in the Fingon parentage scenario the title still went to Turgon. My point is that Tolkien seems to have set the order of the High Kings (with very little variation) and not been particularly concerned about changes in ancestry alterring that order. > I've always been of the opinion that post LOTR writings trump > pre-LOTR writing out of hand. The incestuous marriage of first cousins Galadriel and Celeborn? ###### Lines: 16 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 10 Feb 2001 00:39:18 GMT References: <95vpbh$1al$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010209193918.00714.00006197@nso-md.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32261 In article <95vpbh$1al$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, McREsq writes: >My objection (which is too strong a word) is that you don't put the >statements in context. If you simply say in some versions he was a >Feanorean, in others a Fingolfinian and in others a Finafinian, I think that >leaves the incorrect impression that the latter conception is the one that >last longer by far then the others and was the last conception before he >died. > Hmmm...obviously I left out a thought in the middle of the last sentence. I should have said, "...leaves the incorrect impression is that the matter was not virtually decided. In fact, the latter conception is the one that lasted longer by far then the others and was the last conception before he died." Russ ###### Lines: 59 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 10 Feb 2001 01:57:53 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010209205753.02315.00006745@nso-fi.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32253 In article , "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: > >Not true? How? In various versions Tolkien changed Gil-Galad's >ancestry, but GG still became High King. Tolkien never indicated >that one of these changes in ancestry would invalidate Gil-Galad's >claim to the High Kingship. Tar-Elenion has noted that in the >Fingon parentage scenario the title still went to Turgon. My point >is that Tolkien seems to have set the order of the High Kings (with >very little variation) and not been particularly concerned about >changes in ancestry alterring that order. As I stated in another recent message, I think there's an incorrect assumption there; namely, that one scribbled note (in pencil no less) indicates that JRRT fully considered each and every ramification of the decision and represents an adoption of each ancillary change connected with it. In fact, I would argue the opposite. The fact that this is a scribbled note indicates to me it was a passing idea. The fact that the passing idea is never followed up on or repeated anywhere else and that subsequent writings return to the original conception indicates to me the more likely explanation is that upon considering the ramifications he rejected it and returned quickly to GG as Finarfinian. That's my point. Without context, the position I argue against is one places a single scribbled note on the same plane as numerous entries in full scale drafts both before and after. In my other message I made a comparion to Beren. Using the same logic, I could just as easily say simply that in some texts Beren was an Elf and in others Beren was a Man. However, does anyone seriously doubt Tolkien intended finally Beren to be a Man? Yet there are many more significant references in established texts to Beren being an Elf as there are to GG being son of Fingon. Just as I think you'll agree the statement about Beren should be placed in context, so I think statements about GG's heritage should be put in context. In the end, I think it's fair to say that GG as a Fingolfinian is only considered seriously because CJRT mistakenly (as he admitted) adopted that conception into the published Silmarillion. Do you really think we would even be having this discussion if CJRT made GG a son of Finrod or Orodreth in the published Silmarillion? If that happened, GG as son of Fingon would never have been more than a one sentence footnote in some volume of HOME. If that happened, GG as son of Finrod would share the same deserved fate as Beren being an Elf. In other words, CJRT's mistake gives the idea more power than it truly deserves. >> I've always been of the opinion that post LOTR writings trump >> pre-LOTR writing out of hand. > >The incestuous marriage of first cousins Galadriel and Celeborn? I've also always been of the opinion that there are always exceptions . I should rather have said that *in general* post LOTR writings trump pre-LOTR writings. But I also think other factors should be considered. Is it an isolated reference vs an idea that was well-explored? (i.e GG as son of Fingon vs being a Finarfinian); does it contradict published text? (i.e. Celebrimbor being a smith from Gondolin vs a Feanorean); or does it clearly contradict a basic value Tolkien would have considered important (i.e. Galadriel and Celeborn being first cousins vs being very distant cousins). Russ ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 03:07:51 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 116 Message-ID: <962ba5$750$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <95vpbh$1al$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20010209190256.16594.00006138@nso-cg.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.76.159.140 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 10 03:07:51 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98; Win 9x 4.90; AT&T CSM6.0) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x64.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.76.159.140 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!193.162.153.122.MISMATCH!news.tele.dk!205.231.236.10!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32166 In article <20010209190256.16594.00006138@nso-cg.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > In article <95vpbh$1al$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Tar-Elenion > writes: > > > > >> Yet for 20 years he remained a Finarfinian. You're going to have to > >come up > >> with more than a pencilled note that was never followed up upon. > >> > > > >To do what? I have not said anything more than Gil-galad was son of > >Fingon in one variant. Turgon still became High King. I Fingon had > >other children when Gil-galad was not his son. Turgon still became High > >King. > > My objection (which is too strong a word) is that you don't put the statements > in context. If you simply say in some versions he was a Feanorean, in others a > Fingolfinian and in others a Finafinian, I think that leaves the incorrect > impression that the latter conception is the one that last longer by far then > the others and was the last conception before he died. > Okay, I understand your point, but as I noted elsewhere I was giving a brief synopsis not a history lesson. That is why I referred the to the relevant text with the history lesson in it. > Let me use another example. You could just as easily say that Beren was an Elf > in some conceptions and a Man in others. This, like your statements on GG is > true as far as it goes, but I don't think anyone would seriously argue that > Tolkien didn't really make up his mind on the matter and even though there was > no final public draft that its pretty much certain Tolkien intended Beren to be > a Human. Except Beren appears as a Man in the 'published' canon. Gil-galad's descent is only noted in 'unpublished' writings. > > All I'm saying is that statments concerning different versions of stories > should be put into context. > Which is why I cited the relevant text for anyone who wanted a more complete account. > > However, this is where I think you make a false assumption. You're assuming > that by making the single scribbled note regarding GG being son of Fingon that > Tolkien had fully considered all the implications and adopted all the ancillary > changes that would entail (for example, that the inheritance of the High > Kingship would change in a significant way). Indeed, I would arge that the > fact that Tolkien never repeated or further explored the idea of GG being son > of Fingon would imply that upon more serious reflection he didn't like the > ancillary changes such a lineage would create. > > I am assuming he had a reason for doing so at the time. What I am not assuming is what the reason was. There is no indication of the reason for the changes of children and wives to none. > > >> > >You also neglect to mention that Gil-galad as a Finarfinian _never_ > >> >appeared in _any_ of the genealogical tables. > > nor did he as son of Fingon. In fact, I don't think GG ever appeared in any > genealogical table, although I'll have to check the text on that one. > Neverthless, Tolkien certainly created numerous narrative descriptions of GG's > family tree. > CT notes that he did not appear as a descendent of Finarfin or Feanor, and _implies_ that he did not appear as a Fingolfinian. He does not say if he actually appeared there at all, but I think it likely that he did not. I still wish he had published the complete tables. > Russ > > Tar-Elenion -- He is a warrior and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### Lines: 13 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 10 Feb 2001 04:06:20 GMT References: <962ba5$750$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010209230620.03780.00002017@nso-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!193.190.198.17.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32237 In article <962ba5$750$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Tar-Elenion writes: >CT notes that he did not appear as a descendent of Finarfin or Feanor, >and _implies_ that he did not appear as a Fingolfinian. He does not say >if he actually appeared there at all, but I think it likely that he did >not. I still wish he had published the complete tables. > You can say that again. There are several texts CJRT coyly mentions in passing in UT and HOME that he doesn't actually ever publish. The bastard! Russ ###### Lines: 15 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 10 Feb 2001 04:06:20 GMT References: <962ba5$750$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010209230620.03780.00002018@nso-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32238 In article <962ba5$750$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Tar-Elenion writes: >> All I'm saying is that statments concerning different versions of >stories >> should be put into context. >> > >Which is why I cited the relevant text for anyone who wanted a more >complete account. I just make it easy for everyone by spouting the relevant text so the masses won't be confused. Isn't that nice of me? Russ ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 18:18:28 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 35 Message-ID: <9640lf$d1n$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <962ba5$750$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20010209230620.03780.00002018@nso-ch.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.207 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 10 18:18:28 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 marin1.sfba.home.com[4100F445] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x54.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.207 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32321 In article <20010209230620.03780.00002018@nso-ch.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > In article <962ba5$750$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Tar-Elenion > writes: > > >> All I'm saying is that statments concerning different versions of > >stories > >> should be put into context. > >> > > > >Which is why I cited the relevant text for anyone who wanted a more > >complete account. > > I just make it easy for everyone by spouting the relevant text so the masses > won't be confused. Isn't that nice of me? > > Russ > Quite. Unfortunately my typing skills are limited to 'hunt and peck'. So often I try to limit the amount I have to type (ecpept in things that interest more). :) Tar-Elenion -- He is a warrior and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 18:20:37 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 35 Message-ID: <9640pe$dbb$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <962ba5$750$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20010209230620.03780.00002017@nso-ch.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.207 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 10 18:20:37 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 marin1.sfba.home.com[4100F445] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x54.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.207 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.tele.dk!193.251.151.101!opentransit.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32322 In article <20010209230620.03780.00002017@nso-ch.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > In article <962ba5$750$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Tar-Elenion > writes: > > >CT notes that he did not appear as a descendent of Finarfin or Feanor, > >and _implies_ that he did not appear as a Fingolfinian. He does not say > >if he actually appeared there at all, but I think it likely that he did > >not. I still wish he had published the complete tables. > > > > You can say that again. There are several texts CJRT coyly mentions in passing > in UT and HOME that he doesn't actually ever publish. The bastard! > > Russ > Hopefully the 'linguists' with access to the archives will publish more of these. Tar-Elenion -- He is a warrior and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <962ba5$750$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20010209230620.03780.00002017@nso-ch.aol.com> Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 00:24:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.72.96 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 981937481 12.78.72.96 (Mon, 12 Feb 2001 00:24:41 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 00:24:41 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!204.127.161.3!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32389 "Russ" wrote in message news:20010209230620.03780.00002017@nso-ch.aol.com... > You can say that again. There are several texts CJRT coyly > mentions in passing in UT and HOME that he doesn't actually ever > publish. The bastard! That and all the 'I cannot quite make it out but it isn't XYZ' type things. I well understand why he couldn't publish EVERYTHING, but that doesn't stop me from wishing he had (including photocopies of the original notes). ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20010209205753.02315.00006745@nso-fi.aol.com> Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Lines: 71 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 00:24:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.72.96 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 981937482 12.78.72.96 (Mon, 12 Feb 2001 00:24:42 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 00:24:42 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32385 "Russ" wrote in message news:20010209205753.02315.00006745@nso-fi.aol.com... > As I stated in another recent message, I think there's an > incorrect assumption there; namely, that one scribbled note (in > pencil no less) indicates that JRRT fully considered each and > every ramification of the decision and represents an adoption of > each ancillary change connected with it. Certainly, but it isn't just one scribbled note... Tolkien changed Gil-galad's ancestry several times. In the specific case where he was son of Fingon Tolkien might well not have considered all the implications until later, but my point is that throughout all the changes there is no note or other indication that I am aware of that the possible impact on inheritance was considered. He was even a descendant of Feanor at one point. > Without context, the position I argue against is one places a > single scribbled note on the same plane as numerous entries in > full scale drafts both before and after. Like the 'seven at most' Balrogs reference scribbled in a margin and never again revisited? > In my other message I made a comparion to Beren. Using the same > logic, I could just as easily say simply that in some texts Beren > was an Elf and in others Beren was a Man. Which would be completely true... and have not change the fact that he was to be Luthien's husband in either case. The change in his race didn't alter his fundamental place in the mythology any more than the changes in Gil-galad's parentage alterred his. > However, does anyone seriously doubt Tolkien intended finally > Beren to be a Man? Yet there are many more significant > references in established texts to Beren being an Elf as there > are to GG being son of Fingon. As said several times... the son of Fingon instance is not the sole issue here. The situations are not equivalent as Beren was not in other texts said to have been a Dwarf... or an Orc. First he was an Elf. Then he was a Man. End of story. Gil-galad's situation was much more complex. > I've also always been of the opinion that there are always > exceptions . I should rather have said that *in general* post > LOTR writings trump pre-LOTR writings. But I also think other > factors should be considered. Is it an isolated reference vs an > idea that was well-explored? (i.e GG as son of Fingon vs being a > Finarfinian); does it contradict published text? (i.e. > Celebrimbor being a smith from Gondolin vs a Feanorean); or does > it clearly contradict a basic value Tolkien would have considered > important (i.e. Galadriel and Celeborn being first cousins vs > being very distant cousins). I agree that we have to take numerous factors like these into account in weighing what Tolkien might have intended. However, at least one thing was true of Gil-galad throughout his history... he was ALWAYS the king of the Elves in the 'Second Age'. Given that this remained constant while his parentage jumped all over the map I continue to argue that the only thing we can discern about inheritance customs from Gil-galad's position is that there was enough leeway in them for him to become King through any number of different ancestries (though always a descendant of Finwe). That he was a descendant of Finarfin (under various names) most of the time has never been in dispute... but even then there is some evidence of Finrod Felagund having children (off an on) and Gil-galad (as descendant of Angrod) inheriting over them. ###### From: Tar-Elenion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 02:44:03 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 74 Message-ID: <967ili$2ta$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20010209205753.02315.00006745@nso-fi.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.207 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Feb 12 02:44:03 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 marin1.sfba.home.com[4100F445] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.207 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32368 In article , "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: > "Russ" wrote in message > news:20010209205753.02315.00006745@nso-fi.aol.com... > > > As I stated in another recent message, I think there's an > > incorrect assumption there; namely, that one scribbled note (in > > pencil no less) indicates that JRRT fully considered each and > > every ramification of the decision and represents an adoption of > > each ancillary change connected with it. > > Certainly, but it isn't just one scribbled note... Tolkien > changed Gil-galad's ancestry several times. In the specific case > where he was son of Fingon Tolkien might well not have considered > all the implications until later, but my point is that throughout > all the changes there is no note or other indication that I am > aware of that the possible impact on inheritance was considered. > He was even a descendant of Feanor at one point. > Actually, to be fair, it was the Aug. '65 note in which Rodnor Gil- galad became son of Orodreth that was 'hastily scribbled'. The note that has Findor Gil-galad a son of Fingon was stated to be a 'late pencilled addition'. > > Without context, the position I argue against is one places a > > single scribbled note on the same plane as numerous entries in > > full scale drafts both before and after. > > > > I've also always been of the opinion that there are always > > exceptions . I should rather have said that *in general* post > > LOTR writings trump pre-LOTR writings. But I also think other > > factors should be considered. Is it an isolated reference vs an > > idea that was well-explored? (i.e GG as son of Fingon vs being a > > Finarfinian); does it contradict published text? (i.e. > > Celebrimbor being a smith from Gondolin vs a Feanorean); or does > > it clearly contradict a basic value Tolkien would have considered > > important (i.e. Galadriel and Celeborn being first cousins vs > > being very distant cousins). > > I agree that we have to take numerous factors like these into > account in weighing what Tolkien might have intended. However, at > least one thing was true of Gil-galad throughout his history... he > was ALWAYS the king of the Elves in the 'Second Age'. Given that > this remained constant while his parentage jumped all over the map > I continue to argue that the only thing we can discern about > inheritance customs from Gil-galad's position is that there was > enough leeway in them for him to become King through any number of > different ancestries (though always a descendant of Finwe). That > he was a descendant of Finarfin (under various names) most of the > time has never been in dispute... but even then there is some > evidence of Finrod Felagund having children (off an on) and > Gil-galad (as descendant of Angrod) inheriting over them. > > _?_ reference to Finrod Felagund having other children that Gil-galad inherited over. Finrod Felagund had Gil-galad (and Galadriel) as children in some versions, and Orodreth, his brother, inherited over Gil-galad. And for some brief time he had Orodreth as a son. What other children other children are you thinking of? Tar-Elenion -- He is a warrior and a spirit of wrath. In every stroke that he deals he sees the Enemy who long ago did thee this hurt. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### Lines: 113 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 12 Feb 2001 15:27:19 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010212102719.29597.00007161@nso-mi.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!lmu.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.stealth.net!24.30.200.2.MISMATCH!news-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32415 In article , "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: >> As I stated in another recent message, I think there's an >> incorrect assumption there; namely, that one scribbled note (in >> pencil no less) indicates that JRRT fully considered each and >> every ramification of the decision and represents an adoption of >> each ancillary change connected with it. > >Certainly, but it isn't just one scribbled note... Tolkien >changed Gil-galad's ancestry several times. Gil-galad as a Fingolfinian was just in one pencilled note to the Grey Annals I believe and never followed up or explored. Gil-galad as a Feanorean appears twice, once in Annals of Beleriand (I think) and once in an early 1940's draft of LOTR. That's it. Everything else places him as a Finarfinian - whether as son of Finrod or son of Orodreth - numerous entries over decades. Bascially everything afer 1945 or so has him as a Finarfinian, apart from the one single isolated pencilled note. > In the specific case >where he was son of Fingon Tolkien might well not have considered >all the implications until later, but my point is that throughout >all the changes there is no note or other indication that I am >aware of that the possible impact on inheritance was considered. Right, which is my point somewhat. I dont think we can accept the single pencilled note as indicating any awareness that Tolkien considered the full impact on any issue includeing the inheritance system. OTOH, with the numerous references of decades to GG being a Finarfinian, it is valid to suppose he considered that issue. >He was even a descendant of Feanor at one point. See above, both from early 1940's or before. Again, my point is context. >> Without context, the position I argue against is one places a >> single scribbled note on the same plane as numerous entries in >> full scale drafts both before and after. > >Like the 'seven at most' Balrogs reference scribbled in a margin >and never again revisited? So, I'm not arguing about balrogs. There are different dynamics involved in that issue. If the GG as Fingolfinian pencilled note was Tolkien's "last word" the situations might be somewhat analogous; however in this case, GG promply returned to being a Finarfinian. >> In my other message I made a comparion to Beren. Using the same >> logic, I could just as easily say simply that in some texts Beren >> was an Elf and in others Beren was a Man. > >Which would be completely true... and have not change the fact that >he was to be Luthien's husband in either case. The change in his >race didn't alter his fundamental place in the mythology any more >than the changes in Gil-galad's parentage alterred his. > >> However, does anyone seriously doubt Tolkien intended finally >> Beren to be a Man? Yet there are many more significant >> references in established texts to Beren being an Elf as there >> are to GG being son of Fingon. > >As said several times... the son of Fingon instance is not the >sole issue here. The situations are not equivalent as Beren was >not in other texts said to have been a Dwarf... or an Orc. First >he was an Elf. Then he was a Man. End of story. Gil-galad's >situation was much more complex. Not much more. >> I've also always been of the opinion that there are always >> exceptions . I should rather have said that *in general* post >> LOTR writings trump pre-LOTR writings. But I also think other >> factors should be considered. Is it an isolated reference vs an >> idea that was well-explored? (i.e GG as son of Fingon vs being a >> Finarfinian); does it contradict published text? (i.e. >> Celebrimbor being a smith from Gondolin vs a Feanorean); or does >> it clearly contradict a basic value Tolkien would have considered >> important (i.e. Galadriel and Celeborn being first cousins vs >> being very distant cousins). > >I agree that we have to take numerous factors like these into >account in weighing what Tolkien might have intended. However, at >least one thing was true of Gil-galad throughout his history... he >was ALWAYS the king of the Elves in the 'Second Age'. Given that >this remained constant while his parentage jumped all over the map I disagree with this description. It was more like this. In two early references he was a Feanorean and for the rest of the time he was a Finarfinian, save one isloated pencilled note never further explored in which he was a Fingolfinian. I don't call that jumping all over the map. >I continue to argue that the only thing we can discern about >inheritance customs from Gil-galad's position is that there was >enough leeway in them for him to become King through any number of >different ancestries (though always a descendant of Finwe). All that tells me is that Tolkien liked the name. > That >he was a descendant of Finarfin (under various names) most of the >time has never been in dispute... but even then there is some >evidence of Finrod Felagund having children (off an on) and >Gil-galad (as descendant of Angrod) inheriting over them. I don't think so. I could be wrong, but my recollection is that it was only when Finrod was established to have no children than GG was moved over to Orodreth. I don't think there was a time that Felafund (which is a better identifier for him) had children (in Middle-earth at least) and GG as son of Orodreth became king. Russ ###### Lines: 16 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 12 Feb 2001 15:27:19 GMT References: <967ili$2ta$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010212102719.29597.00007162@nso-mi.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32416 In article <967ili$2ta$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Tar-Elenion writes: >_?_ reference to Finrod Felagund having other children that Gil-galad >inherited over. Finrod Felagund had Gil-galad (and Galadriel) as >children in some versions, and Orodreth, his brother, inherited over >Gil-galad. And for some brief time he had Orodreth as a son. What other >children other children are you thinking of? I'm confused. Was Galadriel ever Finrod *Felagund's* daughter or only daughter of Finrod when Finrod was the name for the person who ended up as Finarfin. Put another way, was Galadriel ever a great-grandaughter of Finwe? Russ Russ ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 01:13:16 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 27 Message-ID: <96cf69$lve$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <20010212102719.29597.00007161@nso-mi.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-q239.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 982106122 22510 212.205.254.239 (13 Feb 2001 23:15:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:15:22 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!195.206.66.162.MISMATCH!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32454 Russ wrote in message news:20010212102719.29597.00007161@nso-mi.aol.com... > In article , "Conrad > Dunkerson" writes: > >I agree that we have to take numerous factors like these into > >account in weighing what Tolkien might have intended. However, at > >least one thing was true of Gil-galad throughout his history... he > >was ALWAYS the king of the Elves in the 'Second Age'. Given that > >this remained constant while his parentage jumped all over the map > > I disagree with this description. It was more like this. In two early > references he was a Feanorean and for the rest of the time he was a > Finarfinian, save one isloated pencilled note never further explored in which > he was a Fingolfinian. I don't call that jumping all over the map. You are ofcourse using the word "Finarfinian" as an excuse to group together two different parentages, that of Finrod and that of Orodreth. I don't think you have yet explained why they should be grouped together. Aris Katsaris ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20010212102719.29597.00007161@nso-mi.aol.com> <96cf69$lve$1@usenet.otenet.gr> Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Lines: 38 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 00:10:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.27.6 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 982109405 12.79.27.6 (Wed, 14 Feb 2001 00:10:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 00:10:05 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32458 "Aris Katsaris" wrote in message news:96cf69$lve$1@usenet.otenet.gr... > You are ofcourse using the word "Finarfinian" as an excuse to > group together two different parentages, that of Finrod and that > of Orodreth. > I don't think you have yet explained why they should be grouped > together. While I >was< including the various changes WITHIN the house of Finarfin when I said that GGs ancestry 'jumped all over the map' there actually is a valid reason to lump those jumps together within the framework of Russ's theory... Effectively, Russ's theory relies on the idea that ONLY inheritance within the Finarfin line would be valid after the death of Turgon (short of GG being made son of Turgon himself). As such all 'Finarfinian' inheritances are supportive of Russ's theory EXCEPT in such case where Gil-Galad inherited over some >OTHER< Finarfinian who'd be ahead of him in the supposed line of descent... which situation is never explicitly stated that I can think of, but there WAS reference to Felagund having children after GG became a nephew (see Tar-Elenion's excellent synopsis and possibly various old debates about Gildor's claim to be of the House of Finrod). If one of those children were male then GG the nephew would be in violation of the 'eldest male line only' theory. That said there were also a couple of GGs of unclear ancestry, where the father was never stated or could not be made out by CT. Those too contribute to 'jumping all over the map' and make the situation much more complex than implied by just; 'Feanorian', 'Finarfinian', brief foray into 'Fingolfinian' and then back to 'Finarfinian'. ###### Lines: 37 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 14 Feb 2001 00:28:16 GMT References: <96cf69$lve$1@usenet.otenet.gr> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010213192816.00221.00000625@nso-md.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32468 In article <96cf69$lve$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, "Aris Katsaris" writes: >Russ wrote in message >news:20010212102719.29597.00007161@nso-mi.aol.com... >> In article , >"Conrad >> Dunkerson" writes: >> >I agree that we have to take numerous factors like these into >> >account in weighing what Tolkien might have intended. However, at >> >least one thing was true of Gil-galad throughout his history... he >> >was ALWAYS the king of the Elves in the 'Second Age'. Given that >> >this remained constant while his parentage jumped all over the map >> >> I disagree with this description. It was more like this. In two early >> references he was a Feanorean and for the rest of the time he was a >> Finarfinian, save one isloated pencilled note never further explored in >which >> he was a Fingolfinian. I don't call that jumping all over the map. > >You are ofcourse using the word "Finarfinian" as an excuse to group together >two different parentages, that of Finrod and that of Orodreth. > >I don't think you have yet explained why they should be grouped together. > Because, the issue most often arises in the context of debates on the inheritance system of the Noldoin high kingship. If GG was a Finarfinian (under any of the scenarios) then the Noldorin system operates precisely like the original Numenorean system worked. In other words whether he is son of Finrod (in those conception where Finrod had children) or son of Orodreth (in those conceptions where Finrod was childless) the system operates exactly like the Numenorean. OTOH, if GG was son of Fingon (i.e. a Fingolfinian) then the issue is raised why Fingon's brother Turgon became high king ahead of Fingon's son. In that scenario it does not operate like the Numenorean system. Russ ###### Lines: 18 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 14 Feb 2001 00:45:03 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010213194503.00221.00000629@nso-md.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32467 In article , "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: >That said there were also a couple of GGs of unclear ancestry, >where the father was never stated or could not be made out by CT. >Those too contribute to 'jumping all over the map' and make the >situation much more complex than implied by just; 'Feanorian', >'Finarfinian', brief foray into 'Fingolfinian' and then back to >'Finarfinian'. That assumes that every refernce to Gil-galad that does not specifically mention his parentage is a possible "change". Tolkien is not going to have every single reference to GG be like this: "Gil-galad son of X" Sometimes he'll just say "Gil-galad" Russ ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:59:12 +0200 Organization: National Technical University of Athens, Greece Lines: 35 Message-ID: <96e390$13g3$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr> References: <96cf69$lve$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <20010213192816.00221.00000625@nso-md.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: octapus.di.uoa.gr X-Trace: ulysses.noc.ntua.gr 982159456 36355 195.134.67.105 (14 Feb 2001 14:04:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntua.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Feb 2001 14:04:16 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.ntua.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32505 "Russ" wrote in message news:20010213192816.00221.00000625@nso-md.aol.com... > In article <96cf69$lve$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, "Aris Katsaris" > writes: > > >Russ wrote in message > >news:20010212102719.29597.00007161@nso-mi.aol.com... > >You are ofcourse using the word "Finarfinian" as an excuse to group together > >two different parentages, that of Finrod and that of Orodreth. > > > >I don't think you have yet explained why they should be grouped together. > > > > Because, the issue most often arises in the context of debates on the > inheritance system of the Noldoin high kingship. If GG was a Finarfinian > (under any of the scenarios) then the Noldorin system operates precisely like > the original Numenorean system worked. Actually if GG was a Finarfinian, then we *don't know* if the Noldorin system operates like the Numenorean one or not, because we don't know what would have happened if Fingon had a son. Or to say it in other words: GG being a Fingolfinian is proof that the Noldor didn't use the Numenorean system, but GG being a Finarfinian is useless in determining whether they used it or not. Aris Katsaris ###### Lines: 21 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 14 Feb 2001 21:23:48 GMT References: <96e390$13g3$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010214162348.00221.00000792@nso-md.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32509 In article <96e390$13g3$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>, "Aris Katsaris" writes: >Actually if GG was a Finarfinian, then we *don't know* if the Noldorin >system >operates like the Numenorean one or not, because we don't know what would >have happened if Fingon had a son. Is there any other text (besides the pencilled note) that indicates Fingon had a son? If not, I think the answer is clear. > >Or to say it in other words: GG being a Fingolfinian is proof that the >Noldor didn't >use the Numenorean system, but GG being a Finarfinian is useless in >determining >whether they used it or not. See above. Russ ###### From: "David Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <96e390$13g3$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr> <20010214162348.00221.00000792@nso-md.aol.com> Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Message-ID: <7kPi6.312910$hD4.74284270@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:46:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.62.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.mi.home.com 982237571 24.0.62.34 (Thu, 15 Feb 2001 03:46:11 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 03:46:11 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.mi.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32537 "Russ" wrote in message news:20010214162348.00221.00000792@nso-md.aol.com... > In article <96e390$13g3$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr>, "Aris Katsaris" > writes: > > >Actually if GG was a Finarfinian, then we *don't know* if the Noldorin > >system > >operates like the Numenorean one or not, because we don't know what would > >have happened if Fingon had a son. > > Is there any other text (besides the pencilled note) that indicates Fingon had > a son? If not, I think the answer is clear. In the early genealogical tables (c.1930) mentioned in HoME V Fingon's son is named "Findobar". Dave ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <96e390$13g3$1@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr> <20010214162348.00221.00000792@nso-md.aol.com> <7kPi6.312910$hD4.74284270@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com> Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:49:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.72.113 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 982277362 12.78.72.113 (Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:49:22 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:49:22 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!24.226.1.12!feed.cgocable.net!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!wn1feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32497 "David Lind" wrote in message news:7kPi6.312910$hD4.74284270@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > In the early genealogical tables (c.1930) mentioned in HoME V > Fingon's son is named "Findobar". Good call. Nicely esoteric. Took me a while to find it (shows up in LROW genealogies and etymologies). This is associated with the Earliest Annals of Beleriand (SoME)... however, that rather brief summary does not specifically state that Turgon inherited after Fingon's death (though texts before and after it did). ###### Lines: 16 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 16 Feb 2001 00:42:38 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Message-ID: <20010215194238.16594.00007302@nso-cg.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.dplanet.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32515 In article , "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: >> In the early genealogical tables (c.1930) mentioned in HoME V >> Fingon's son is named "Findobar". > >Good call. Nicely esoteric. Took me a while to find it (shows up >in LROW genealogies and etymologies). This is associated with the >Earliest Annals of Beleriand (SoME)... however, that rather brief >summary does not specifically state that Turgon inherited after >Fingon's death (though texts before and after it did). > Isn't it nice to be surprised by a new quote? Russ ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20010215194238.16594.00007302@nso-cg.aol.com> Subject: Re: The LAST Ship. Lines: 11 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:14:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.72.113 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 982286045 12.78.72.113 (Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:14:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:14:05 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn2feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:32499 "Russ" wrote in message news:20010215194238.16594.00007302@nso-cg.aol.com... > Isn't it nice to be surprised by a new quote? Absolutely. There is so much stuff out there that I suspect people will be finding new tidbits for years to come. Helps keep us from dwelling on precisely the same points every time.