From: the_mendicant Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 23:51:08 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 17 Message-ID: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.150.251.53 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Jan 11 23:51:08 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x61.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.150.251.53 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDthe_mendicant Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!merapi!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!do.de.uu.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31082 Smoky writes: >Oh dear, I sense the whole Medieval Middle Earth >debate about to resurface. Oooh, now I am intrigued, sir. Who is going to tell me what the "Medieval Middle-earth" debate is all about? -- the_mendicant [gregbenedicto@hotmail.com] Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 14 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 979261035 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 11 Jan 2001 18:57:15 CST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 18:57:15 CST Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 00:57:15 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31074 Quoth the_mendicant in article <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com>: > Oooh, now I am intrigued, sir. Who is going to tell me what the > "Medieval Middle-earth" debate is all about? It's actually mentioned in the Tolkien Newsgroups FAQ, in the "Story External" section. If I remember correctly, a bit more can be found in my outdated "Great Debates FAQ" draft that is also linked from my Tolkien page at http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/. For more specific debates, you can search for "medieval" on Deja.com's Power Search page (http://www.deja.com/home_ps.shtml), with "*tolkien" in the "Forum" field. That ought to get you well on your way. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: "RLV" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 01:33:03 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.106.240.214 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@jazztel.com X-Trace: news.jazztel.es 979345196 212.106.240.214 (Sat, 13 Jan 2001 01:19:56 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 01:19:56 CET Organization: Jazztel Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!newsinternetskywayteltow!post.skyway.de!news.jazztel.es!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31119 "the_mendicant" wrote in message news:93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Smoky writes: > > >Oh dear, I sense the whole Medieval Middle Earth > >debate about to resurface. > > Oooh, now I am intrigued, sir. Who is going to tell > me what the "Medieval Middle-earth" debate is all > about? Bassically, oh surprise!, around the question: "Does ME look Medieval?" Id est, if the technology, weaponry, clothing and social system of ME would be similar to Medieval Europe. R.L.V. ~~#~~ "I wonder if the Pyramids of Gondor will appear again" ###### From: the_mendicant Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 01:44:33 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 30 Message-ID: <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.150.251.44 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Jan 13 01:44:33 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x61.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.150.251.44 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDthe_mendicant Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31105 RLV wrote: > Bassically, oh surprise!, around the question: "Does > ME look Medieval?" Id est, if the technology, weaponry, > clothing and social system of ME would be similar to > Medieval Europe. Well, given that there are swords, metal armor, Medieval- esque hierarchies and arrangements, the most obvious answer would be yes, George, Middle-earth is rather Medieval-looking. Perhaps this is just my lack of imagination on the subject, but what else could it be? I don't think one could pin-point a specific century (Tolkien does not delve into that level of specifics), though I never got the sense that there was anyone walking about in full suits of plate mail, so perhaps this narrows things down to a certain extent. I've always imagined it to be contemporaneous with the world of Beowulf -- but the historical accuracy of the epic itself is somewhat questionable. Gah, this whole debate is quite anal. -- the_mendicant [gregbenedicto@hotmail.com] Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: Meneldil Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 08:24:27 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 24 Message-ID: <93p3bp$3da$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.82.103.40 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Jan 13 08:24:27 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT; University of East Anglia) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 wwwcache1.uea.ac.uk:8080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE4), 1.0 jalapeno.ulcc.wwwcache.ja.net:8080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE5-hno.20000202), 1.0 x65.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 139.222.126.107, 139.222.128.2, 194.82.103.40 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDmeneldil Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31104 In article <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, the_mendicant wrote: > Well, given that there are swords, metal armor, Medieval- > esque hierarchies and arrangements, the most obvious > answer would be yes, George, Middle-earth is rather > Medieval-looking. Perhaps this is just my lack of > imagination on the subject, but what else could it be? Well, there _is_ JRRT's view in Letter 211, where he says that the Rohirrim were "not mediaeval" and were likely to be dressed in the style of the Bayeux tapestry, and the Gondorians were better visualised as Egyptians (he's drawn a picture of the Gondorian crown which looks like one of those long tall Egyptian hats with wings attached). But let's not revive the debate :-) Cheers, Meneldil Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: "RLV" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93p3bp$3da$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Lines: 34 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <6IW76.2457$T9.524477@news.jazztel.es> Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:23:06 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.106.244.111 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@jazztel.com X-Trace: news.jazztel.es 979384194 212.106.244.111 (Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:09:54 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:09:54 CET Organization: Jazztel Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!newsinternetskywayteltow!post.skyway.de!news.jazztel.es!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31116 "Meneldil" wrote in message news:93p3bp$3da$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > the_mendicant wrote: > > > Well, given that there are swords, metal armor, Medieval- > > esque hierarchies and arrangements, the most obvious > > answer would be yes, George, Middle-earth is rather > > Medieval-looking. Perhaps this is just my lack of > > imagination on the subject, but what else could it be? > > > Well, there _is_ JRRT's view in Letter 211, where he says that the > Rohirrim were "not mediaeval" and were likely to be dressed in the > style of the Bayeux tapestry, and the Gondorians were better visualised > as Egyptians (he's drawn a picture of the Gondorian crown which looks > like one of those long tall Egyptian hats with wings attached). LOL! The pyramids are back! > But > let's not revive the debate :-) Why not? The PhantoM Menace is no longer here. R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Tilde power!" ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue White Supergiant) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 03:23:13 -0800 Organization: Will pointlessly annoy people for food. Message-ID: References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93p3bp$3da$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6IW76.2457$T9.524477@news.jazztel.es> X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c153.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31122 / > style of the Bayeux tapestry, and the Gondorians were better visualised / > as Egyptians (he's drawn a picture of the Gondorian crown which looks / > like one of those long tall Egyptian hats with wings attached). / / LOL! The pyramids are back! Yul Brenner as Denethor (we can glue together old clips together with a computer modification) and Charleton Heston as Aragorn (we can glue together et cetera). "SET MY DUNEDAIN FREE!" =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Sign up for WASHINGTON MUTUAL BANK's special We Rob You While You Sleep Service TODAY! =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 pretty pretty http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/ All new and improved web pages! Bookmark yours today! :)-free zone. Elect LUM World Dictator! ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:40:13 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 35 Message-ID: <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-q141.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 979389727 12137 212.205.254.141 (13 Jan 2001 12:42:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:42:07 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31115 the_mendicant wrote in message news:93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > RLV wrote: > > > Bassically, oh surprise!, around the question: "Does > > ME look Medieval?" Id est, if the technology, weaponry, > > clothing and social system of ME would be similar to > > Medieval Europe. > > Well, given that there are swords, metal armor Medieval- > esque hierarchies and arrangements, the most obvious > answer would be yes, George, Middle-earth is rather > Medieval-looking. There are swords and metal armor in the Iliad and the Odyssey, also. And I assure you they are *not* medieval. As for hierarchies and arrangement, I admit that I do not understand what you mean? That there are kings around? There are kings in Homer also. > Perhaps this is just my lack of > imagination on the subject, but what else could it be? Umm... How about ancient? I have no idea whether Middle-earth looks medieval or not, but if these are the best arguments you can come up with, you've just done a lot to convince me of the opposite. Aris Katsaris ###### From: the_mendicant Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:25:54 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 19 Message-ID: <93pohf$gue$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93p3bp$3da$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.150.251.61 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Jan 13 14:25:54 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x69.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.150.251.61 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDthe_mendicant Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!newsfeed1.online.no!nextra.com!newsfeed.nettuno.it!newsfeed2.skycache.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31110 Meneldil wrote: > Well, there _is_ JRRT's view in Letter 211, where he says that the > Rohirrim were "not mediaeval" and were likely to be dressed in the > style of the Bayeux tapestry, and the Gondorians were better > visualised as Egyptians (he's drawn a picture of the Gondorian > crown which looks like one of those long tall Egyptian hats with > wings attached). Even so, the text itself does little to support this view. -- the_mendicant [gregbenedicto@hotmail.com] Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: the_mendicant Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:56:22 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 45 Message-ID: <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.150.251.65 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Jan 13 15:56:22 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x71.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.150.251.65 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDthe_mendicant Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31108 Aris Katsaris says: > > Well, given that there are swords, metal armor Medieval- > > esque hierarchies and arrangements, the most obvious > > answer would be yes, George, Middle-earth is rather > > Medieval-looking. > There are swords and metal armor in the Iliad > and the Odyssey, also. And I assure you they are *not* > medieval. Ah, but that armor was bronze wasn't it? And ancient Greek warriors carried the gladius or the spear -- very unlike the weapons scattered around Smaug's hoard in pic #17 of PICTURES BY J. R. R. TOLKIEN. In addition, going by Bilbo's ensemble in pic #20, clothing seems to have matured beyond the sandals and toga stage. Of course, not much of this is supported by the text itself, but then neither is the Greek theory. > As for hierarchies and arrangement, I admit that I do not > understand what you mean? The social system bears closer resemblance to that of Medieval Europe -- in the absence of their king, the people of Gondor are governed by a Steward, for example. > I have no idea whether Middle-earth looks medieval or not, > but if these are the best arguments you can come up with, > you've just done a lot to convince me of the opposite. The opposite of Medieval being...? -- the_mendicant [gregbenedicto@hotmail.com] Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93p3bp$3da$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6IW76.2457$T9.524477@news.jazztel.es> Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Lines: 34 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.37.103 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 979402386 212.151.37.103 (Sat, 13 Jan 2001 17:13:06 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 17:13:06 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-37-103.swipnet.se Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 17:13:04 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31121 RLV hath written: > >"Meneldil" wrote in message [snip] >> Well, there _is_ JRRT's view in Letter 211, where he says that the >> Rohirrim were "not mediaeval" and were likely to be dressed in the >> style of the Bayeux tapestry, and the Gondorians were better visualised >> as Egyptians (he's drawn a picture of the Gondorian crown which looks >> like one of those long tall Egyptian hats with wings attached). > >LOL! The pyramids are back! > >> But >> let's not revive the debate :-) > >Why not? The PhantoM Menace is no longer here. Agree. Now, the Bayeux tapestry is, of course, medieval - slap from the middle of the period. Also, Gondor is quite clearly a feudal country with lieges, fiefs and oaths of fealty, though Tolkien has omitted serfdom. Even the institution of Ruling Steward is medieval - it existed in France for a couple of generations, before one of the Ruling Stewards (Pippin the Short, father of Charlemagne) deposed the powerless king, the last king of the Merovingian dunasty. So I think that despite the Egyptian aspect and so on, Middle-earth would be rather "medieval" in character. Yes, his name was Pippin the Short (or Pepin le bref). Stopp giggling, everybody! Öjevind ###### From: "RLV" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93p3bp$3da$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6IW76.2457$T9.524477@news.jazztel.es> Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Lines: 55 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 19:52:36 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.106.252.174 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@jazztel.com X-Trace: news.jazztel.es 979411162 212.106.252.174 (Sat, 13 Jan 2001 19:39:22 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 19:39:22 CET Organization: Jazztel Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!newsinternetskywayteltow!post.skyway.de!news.jazztel.es!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31120 "Öjevind Lång" wroté: > RLV hath written: > >"Meneldil" wrote in message > > [snip] > > >> Well, there _is_ JRRT's view in Letter 211, where he says that the > >> Rohirrim were "not mediaeval" and were likely to be dressed in the > >> style of the Bayeux tapestry, and the Gondorians were better visualised > >> as Egyptians (he's drawn a picture of the Gondorian crown which looks > >> like one of those long tall Egyptian hats with wings attached). > > > >LOL! The pyramids are back! > > > >> But > >> let's not revive the debate :-) > > > >Why not? The PhantoM Menace is no longer here. > > Agree. Now, the Bayeux tapestry is, of course, medieval - slap from the > middle of the period. Certainly that sentence ("the Rohirrim were "not mediaeval" and were likely to be dressed in the style of the Bayeux tapestry") looks contradictory. >Also, Gondor is quite clearly a feudal country with > lieges, fiefs and oaths of fealty, though Tolkien has omitted serfdom. Even > the institution of Ruling Steward is medieval - it existed in France for a > couple of generations, before one of the Ruling Stewards (Pippin the Short, > father of Charlemagne) deposed the powerless king, the last king of the > Merovingian dunasty. So I think that despite the Egyptian aspect and so on, > Middle-earth would be rather "medieval" in character. Actually, IIRC, the only quote produced supporting the Egyptian connection talked about how Gondorians ressembled Egyptians in their liking for the monumental and grandiose. Other aspects were not mentioned, and the dissimilarities shown in the book are quite more numerous. > Yes, his name was Pippin the Short (or Pepin le bref). Stopp giggling, > everybody! Hey, now we know the source of one of the hobbit's names. Any other Medieval king named Merry? R.L.V. ~~#~~ "I've got one Chindasvintus" ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue White Supergiant) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:06:23 -0800 Organization: Will pointlessly annoy people for food. Message-ID: References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 36 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c180.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31139 / Ah, but that armor was bronze wasn't it? And ancient Greek / warriors carried the gladius or the spear -- very unlike the Gladius was a Roman sword. Steel weapons are about 3000 years old (whenever it was the Hittites openned shop). Byrnies were used before the Norman invasion. Except for the evolution of copper->bronze->steel->better steels, weaponery changed very little from about 8000BC to AD1500. The only really unusual thing was the medieval plate armour of the chevaliers: before then horse were too weak to carry the load, after bullets could too easily pierce it. / ensemble in pic #20, clothing seems to have matured beyond / the sandals and toga stage. Of course, not much of this is Mounted riders were wearing pants when they came out of the steppes. Sometimes. And breeches and shirts and tunics and robes and skirts and dresses and shoes and boots and sandals.... Again, very little of the forms have changed, mostly just the materials. Nylon for silk for linen. Spandex in socks so you don't need garters. The brassiere is a recent invention. / The opposite of Medieval being...? From the time of the first city-states until about AD1500, there wasn't a lot of difference between one era and another. One thing we do not see are plate armourred chevaliers. =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Sign up for WASHINGTON MUTUAL BANK's special We Rob You While You Sleep Service TODAY! =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 pretty pretty http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/ All new and improved web pages! Bookmark yours today! :)-free zone. Elect LUM World Dictator! ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 18:12:56 -0500 Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3A60E0F7.CA82BECC@erols.com> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93p3bp$3da$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6IW76.2457$T9.524477@news.jazztel.es> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVY7esGGLhXLw4yUHfdw+TB9R8aJxfUa0xlY3NTbGqf0HySjbHBI/Fm+ X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jan 2001 05:27:16 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31126 RLV wrote: > > Yes, his name was Pippin the Short (or Pepin le bref). Stopp giggling, > > everybody! > > Hey, now we know the source of one of the hobbit's names. Any other Medieval > king named Merry? Well, Old King Cole was a merry old soul. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: Meneldil Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 23:23:25 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 18 Message-ID: <93qo18$8kd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93p3bp$3da$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6IW76.2457$T9.524477@news.jazztel.es> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.82.103.40 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Jan 13 23:23:25 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT; University of East Anglia) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 wwwcache1.uea.ac.uk:8080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE4), 1.0 jalapeno.ulcc.wwwcache.ja.net:8080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE5-hno.20000202), 1.0 x61.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 139.222.126.124, 139.222.128.2, 194.82.103.40 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDmeneldil Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!205.231.236.10!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31129 In article , "RLV" wrote: > Certainly that sentence ("the Rohirrim were "not mediaeval" and were likely > to be dressed in the style of the Bayeux tapestry") looks contradictory. If you'll define "mediaeval", to include the sort of short ring chain- mail shown by the Bayeux tapestry, I'd agree. Clearly, JRRT thought that that wasn't the association most blokes would make with the word "mediaeval" Meneldil Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: the_mendicant Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 02:34:47 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 12 Message-ID: <93r388$gu2$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.150.251.60 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Jan 14 02:34:47 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x57.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.150.251.60 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDthe_mendicant Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!merapi!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31127 China Blue White Supergiant waxed historical... I stand corrected. -- the_mendicant [gregbenedicto@hotmail.com] Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: the_mendicant Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 02:43:52 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 17 Message-ID: <93r3p7$hbe$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93qvrr$1fb$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.150.251.60 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Jan 14 02:43:52 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x57.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.150.251.60 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDthe_mendicant Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!205.231.236.10!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31131 Aris Katsaris wrote: > The opposite of mediaval being "Not medieval." Alright. Howsabout we settle for Middle-earth -- the hodge-podge of various historical eras with a side of northern European mythology -- and call it a day. -- Yours Truly, the_mendicant [gregbenedicto@hotmail.com] Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: Meneldil Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:10:58 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 18 Message-ID: <93rtvh$3q6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93p3bp$3da$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6IW76.2457$T9.524477@news.jazztel.es> <3A60E0F7.CA82BECC@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.82.103.36 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Jan 14 10:10:58 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT; University of East Anglia) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 wwwcache1.uea.ac.uk:8080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE4), 1.0 oregano.ulcc.wwwcache.ja.net:8080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE5-hno.20000202), 1.0 x64.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 139.222.126.107, 139.222.128.2, 194.82.103.36 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDmeneldil Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31132 In article <3A60E0F7.CA82BECC@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: > RLV wrote: > > > > Yes, his name was Pippin the Short (or Pepin le bref). Stopp giggling, > > > everybody! > > > > Hey, now we know the source of one of the hobbit's names. Any other Medieval > > king named Merry? > There was Merry England. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: Meneldil Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:13:52 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 11 Message-ID: <93ru4v$41n$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93qvrr$1fb$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93r3p7$hbe$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.82.103.43 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Jan 14 10:13:52 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT; University of East Anglia) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 wwwcache1.uea.ac.uk:8080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE4), 1.0 pineapple.ulcc.wwwcache.ja.net:8080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE5-hno.20000202), 1.0 x53.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 139.222.126.107, 139.222.128.2, 194.82.103.43 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDmeneldil Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31130 In article <93r3p7$hbe$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, the_mendicant wrote: > with a side > of northern European mythology And Greek mythology (Numenor) Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: "O. Sharp" Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93p3bp$3da$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: It's Our Favorite Pinball Game, Too User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.17 (i686)) Lines: 72 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 04:35:57 CST X-Trace: sv2-8FDi7UBDTn0qViH0tf8nDUzsUsF4lHMD/nMfmd/8L2pUGCWKDyESKNJ7OtTHrxrXUreRf4SNVYfy6pR!p3BqxMgXn5ZxxBOMPlnPE8zpDkc= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:35:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!nntp2.aus1.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31137 Meneldil wrote: : Well, there _is_ JRRT's view in Letter 211, where he says that the : Rohirrim were "not mediaeval" <...snipppp> I simply _must_ step in at this point and repost the words of Mr. John Osborne, posted in July of 1997, who went straight to the source to determine the truth of this matter. :) The music is that of Gilbert and Sullivan. You should be able to guess which song... Theoden sings.... I am the very model of a mediaeval Anglian The truth of this suffuses every nerve and every ganglion While some proclaim my _folc_ (1) to be Germanic (miscellaneous) I am in in fact bewildered by this theory extra-aneous I'm neither Lombard, Hun or Goth or any of that eastern crowd We're Anglo-Saxon to the core although we fight on horses proud Some seem to think our armour bright could easily be Persian But it is plain to see that it is mediaeval Mercian (chorus) But it is plain to see that it is mediaeval Mercian But it is plain to see that it is mediaeval Mercian But it is plain to see that it is mediaeval Merci-Mercian (Theoden) We are the very model of the pre-Normanic _Angelcynn_ (2) We show it in the way we dress and in the way our songs are sung In normal conversation we employ the language Mercian And when we wish to swear, by heck! we don't just swear, we _cursian_ (3) Our poetry's alliterative - it hardly ever rhymes at all We gather round mead benches and tell epics in our Saxon hall In matters of the hearth and hall, the homestead and the open weald We are the very model of a mediaeval _gefeald_ (4) (chorus) They are the very model of a mediaeval _gefeald_ They are the very model of a mediaeval _gefeald_ They are the very model of a mediaeval _gefe- gefeald_ (Theoden) I am the very model of a _hlaford_ (5) straight from _Beowulf_ We go by names like Fram and Gram and Erkenbrand, Eorl and Wulf My hall of Meduseld which shines like gold under the _sunne_ (6) hot Is obviously modelled on King Hrothgar's home of Heorot In fact we are not modelled on the Anglians historical We're more akin to mediaeval Mercians poetical But be that as it may I offer up this statement once again I am the very model of a mediaeval Anglian! (1) OE (pron. FOL-K) = people (2) OE (pron. AN-GEL-Cuunn) = the Englisc people (3) OE (pron. KURS-EE_AN) = to curse (4) OE (pron. YE-FE-ALD) = domain (5) OE (pron. HLA-VORD) = lord (6) OE (pron. SUUN-NE) = sun I hope such expert testimony as this closes the matter. :) But here's another question. Is Williams Electronics' pinball game "Medieval Madness" medieval?... ------------------------------------------------------------------- ohh@speakeasy.org ...who is very close now to finishing a long project which may move some to amazement and terror. Stay tuned! :) ###### From: Hallaril Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: 14 Jan 2001 15:02:03 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 34 Message-ID: <93sf1b$fun$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sirppi.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 979484523 16343 128.214.205.27 (14 Jan 2001 15:02:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jan 2001 15:02:03 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31138 the_mendicant wrote: > RLV wrote: >> Bassically, oh surprise!, around the question: "Does >> ME look Medieval?" Id est, if the technology, weaponry, >> clothing and social system of ME would be similar to >> Medieval Europe. > Well, given that there are swords, metal armor, Medieval- > esque hierarchies and arrangements, the most obvious > answer would be yes, George, Middle-earth is rather > Medieval-looking. Perhaps this is just my lack of > imagination on the subject, but what else could it be? > I don't think one could pin-point a specific century > (Tolkien does not delve into that level of specifics), > though I never got the sense that there was anyone > walking about in full suits of plate mail, so perhaps > this narrows things down to a certain extent. I've > always imagined it to be contemporaneous with the world > of Beowulf -- but the historical accuracy of the epic > itself is somewhat questionable. Gah, this whole > debate is quite anal. > -- > the_mendicant > [gregbenedicto@hotmail.com] > Sent via Deja.com > http://www.deja.com/ -- ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93p3bp$3da$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6IW76.2457$T9.524477@news.jazztel.es> Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Lines: 20 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.89.94 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 979485780 212.151.89.94 (Sun, 14 Jan 2001 16:23:00 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 16:23:00 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-89-94.swipnet.se Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 16:22:58 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!192.71.180.34!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31136 RLV hath written: > >"Öjevind Lång" wroté: [snip] > >> Yes, his name was Pippin the Short (or Pepin le bref). Stopp giggling, >> everybody! > >Hey, now we know the source of one of the hobbit's names. Any other Medieval >king named Merry? Well, the founder of the Merovingian dynasty, whose last member was deposed by Pippin the Short, was called Merovech. Hmm... Suspicious! Öjevind ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93p3bp$3da$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Lines: 25 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.89.94 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 979486621 212.151.89.94 (Sun, 14 Jan 2001 16:37:01 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 16:37:01 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-89-94.swipnet.se Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 16:36:59 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!192.71.180.34!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31134 O. Sharp hath written: >Meneldil wrote: > >: Well, there _is_ JRRT's view in Letter 211, where he says that the >: Rohirrim were "not mediaeval" <...snipppp> > >I simply _must_ step in at this point and repost the words of Mr. John >Osborne, posted in July of 1997, who went straight to the source to >determine the truth of this matter. :) The music is that of Gilbert >and Sullivan. You should be able to guess which song... > > > > Theoden sings.... > > I am the very model of a mediaeval Anglian [snip the rest] Thank you for posting ths, which, in my opinion, is both to the point and very funny. I saved it on my hard disk. Good show! Öjevind ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 09:19:50 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93p3bp$3da$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!216.218.192.242!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31140 On Sun, 14 Jan 2001 10:35:57 GMT, "O. Sharp" wrote: >I simply _must_ step in at this point and repost the words of Mr. John >Osborne, posted in July of 1997, who went straight to the source to >determine the truth of this matter. :) The music is that of Gilbert >and Sullivan. You should be able to guess which song... > > > > Theoden sings.... > > I am the very model of a mediaeval Anglian > The truth of this suffuses every nerve and every ganglion > (5) OE (pron. HLA-VORD) = lord > (6) OE (pron. SUUN-NE) = sun > > > >I hope such expert testimony as this closes the matter. :) > I am truly impressed, I am, I am! I am truly impressed, I am! Where is this Osborne person now? Come back, Johnny! We need you! the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- _The_ morally smug elitist snob (and 'insufferably arrogant', too) ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93p3bp$3da$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 21:54:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.138 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 979509278 12.79.22.138 (Sun, 14 Jan 2001 21:54:38 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 21:54:38 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!204.127.161.3!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.72!wnfilter2!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31170 "Meneldil" wrote in message news:93p3bp$3da$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Well, there _is_ JRRT's view in Letter 211, where he says that > the Rohirrim were "not mediaeval" and were likely to be dressed > in the style of the Bayeux tapestry It should be noted that Tolkien begins his comments on the topic in that letter with; "I do not know the detail of clothing. I visualize with great clarity and detail scenery and 'natural' objects, but not artefacts. Pauline Baynes drew her inspiration for F. Giles largely from mediaeval MS. drawings... the style seems to fit well enough. Except that males, especially in northern parts such as the Shire, would wear breeches, whether hidden by a cloak or long mantle, or merely accompanied by a tunic." If we take him at his word then Tolkien is here indicating that he did not pay especial attention to what manner of clothing the inhabitants of M-E ought to wear... but found the medieval style chosen by Pauline Baynes fitting - which is further supported by the citation of the Bayeux tapestry as a good model. All that said, there is a notable difference between clothing similar to a medieval style and an actual medieval culture. There are alot of 'medieval' elements in M-E, but enough divergent factors to explain Tolkien's statement that, "The Rohirrim were not 'mediaeval', in our sense." ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue White Supergiant) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 18:03:45 -0800 Organization: Will pointlessly annoy people for food. Message-ID: References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c145.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31184 / could pierce armour. Those changes in weaponry are rather improtant, I / should say. There was little change in tactics. From the early city states until widespread use of firearms, you got two groups of men at arms length poking and stabbing and slashing until one side lost its nerve and ran away. Horse mounted troops, chariots, cavalry, or chevaliers, rarely decided the battle; they were there to harrass and then run down the routing infantry. The quality of the metal, stirrups, and other small things had no long term effect. The losers would quickly adopt the technology, and it would be up to the infantry again. With firearms, especially with rifles and machine guns, soldiers had to be dispersed to survive. Modern societies can also supplies soldiers far from home in all weathers and seasons. =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Sign up for WASHINGTON MUTUAL BANK's special We Rob You While You Sleep Service TODAY! =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 pretty pretty http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/ All new and improved web pages! Bookmark yours today! :)-free zone. Elect LUM World Dictator! ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Lines: 25 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.39.241 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 979581612 212.151.39.241 (Mon, 15 Jan 2001 19:00:12 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 19:00:12 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-39-241.swipnet.se Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 19:00:09 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!192.71.180.34!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31178 China Blue White Supergiant hath written: [snip] >There was little change in tactics. From the early city states until >widespread use of firearms, you got two groups of men at arms length >poking and stabbing and slashing until one side lost its nerve and ran >away. Horse mounted troops, chariots, cavalry, or chevaliers, rarely >decided the battle; they were there to harrass and then run down the >routing infantry. The quality of the metal, stirrups, and other small >things had no long term effect. The losers would quickly adopt the >technology, and it would be up to the infantry again. Medieval knights always ran down and destroyed armies of foot soldiers until the English learned how to use the bow and arrow efficiently against them. Though what finally did for the knights were, of course, firearms, once they became efficient. That took quite some time, by the way; for a considerable period they were mostly a noisy distraction. Öjevind ###### From: smokybarnable@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 20:01:34 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 20 Message-ID: <93vkup$80$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93p3bp$3da$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6IW76.2457$T9.524477@news.jazztel.es> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.120.155.66 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Jan 15 20:01:34 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x68.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 212.120.155.66 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsmokybarnable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet-peer!btnet!news-hub.cableinet.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31152 In article , "RLV" wrote: > Actually, IIRC, the only quote produced supporting the Egyptian connection > talked about how Gondorians ressembled Egyptians in their liking for the > monumental and grandiose. Other aspects were not mentioned, and the > dissimilarities shown in the book are quite more numerous. > I tend to think of them as kind of Egyptian/Medieval, a kind of Late Kingdom meets early middle age France. It's the Numenorean obsession with death and preservation of corpses, tomb building thang that does it for me. Smoky Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: smokybarnable@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 21:13:40 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 17 Message-ID: <93vp5s$454$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93qvrr$1fb$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93r3p7$hbe$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93ru4v$41n$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.120.155.66 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Jan 15 21:13:40 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x63.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 212.120.155.66 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsmokybarnable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31151 In article <93ru4v$41n$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Meneldil wrote: > In article <93r3p7$hbe$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > the_mendicant wrote: > > > with a side > > of northern European mythology > > And Greek mythology (Numenor) > Why Greek? Always seemed more Egyptian to me. Smoky Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: juho@pahajoki.org (Juho P. Pahajoki) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: 15 Jan 2001 22:01:24 GMT Organization: Telia Finland Customer News Service Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93p3bp$3da$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dyn-g-045.yhteys.mtv3.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: nntp.teliafi.net 979596084 23195 62.236.231.45 (15 Jan 2001 22:01:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@teliafi.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jan 2001 22:01:24 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!nntp.teliafi.net!juho Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31149 Se oli Meneldil joka näin lausui, noin nimesi: >Well, there _is_ JRRT's view in Letter 211, where he says that the >Rohirrim were "not mediaeval" and were likely to be dressed in the >style of the Bayeux tapestry, and the Gondorians were better visualised Haven't seen it. What are the people like in the tapestry? From what century are they? >as Egyptians (he's drawn a picture of the Gondorian crown which looks >like one of those long tall Egyptian hats with wings attached). But >let's not revive the debate :-) What about the knights of Dol Amroth? Were they like the medieval knights? BTW, just read Ivanhoe. Nice book. -- Juho Pahajoki - an 18-year-old nerd from Jyväskylä, Finland |-------------[ WWW: http://juho.pahajoki.org/ ]--------------------| Kaikki, minkä tahdotte ihmisten tekevän teille, tehkää te heille. -- Jeesus Kristus ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue White Supergiant) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 14:38:23 -0800 Organization: Will pointlessly annoy people for food. Message-ID: References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93p3bp$3da$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c169.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31186 / >style of the Bayeux tapestry, and the Gondorians were better visualised / / Haven't seen it. What are the people like in the tapestry? From what / century are they? It's the story of the Norman conquest of England, 1066. The people are wearing mailcoats and helmets. The Norman cavalry have stirrups and some of them are shown holding the spears overhead, some couched under their shoulders. / What about the knights of Dol Amroth? Were they like the medieval / knights? Presumably mailcoats, helmets, and shields. Chainmail, leather, a few pieces of armour plate like helmets or breast plates or greaves were widespread and in use for centuries or millenia. The full armour plating of the chevaliers only occurred in Europe and even there for just a few centuries. "chevalier" is a French word meaning horse man. A knight was originally a cniht, a manservant; the English did not use horses in combat until after the Norman Conquest. =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Sign up for WASHINGTON MUTUAL BANK's special We Rob You While You Sleep Service TODAY! =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 pretty pretty http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/ All new and improved web pages! Bookmark yours today! :)-free zone. Elect LUM World Dictator! ###### From: Meneldil Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 22:46:01 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 19 Message-ID: <93vuj6$9cj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93qvrr$1fb$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93r3p7$hbe$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93ru4v$41n$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93vp5s$454$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.82.103.38 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Jan 15 22:46:01 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT; University of East Anglia) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 wwwcache1.uea.ac.uk:8080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE4), 1.0 mozzarella.ulcc.wwwcache.ja.net:8080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE5-hno.20000202), 1.0 x57.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 139.222.126.107, 139.222.128.2, 194.82.103.38 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDmeneldil Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!opentransit.net!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31160 In article <93vp5s$454$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, smokybarnable@my-deja.com wrote: > Why Greek? Always seemed more Egyptian to me. > I was really only talking about the Atlantis-myth influence on the Drowning of Numenor. I had, however, always imagined the early Numenoreans on the lines of the conventional picture of Athenians in the age of Pericles (in terms of philosophy, learning and the arts). I'd not connected them with the Egyptians till I saw your post. Cheers, Meneldil Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: Meneldil Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 22:48:10 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 24 Message-ID: <93vun7$9e6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93p3bp$3da$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.82.103.41 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Jan 15 22:48:10 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT; University of East Anglia) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 wwwcache1.uea.ac.uk:8080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE4), 1.0 olive.wwwcache.ja.net:8080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE5-hno.20000202), 1.0 x61.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 139.222.126.107, 139.222.128.2, 194.82.103.41 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDmeneldil Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!opentransit.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31156 In article , juho@pahajoki.org (Juho P. Pahajoki) wrote: > Haven't seen it. What are the people like in the tapestry? From what > century are they? There's a fairly detailed version online at: > What about the knights of Dol Amroth? Were they like the medieval > knights? > I'd always imagined them dressed more like Romans. No support for that from any of JRRT's works - just a personal impression. Cheers, Meneldil Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Lines: 30 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.94.19 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 979513970 212.151.94.19 (Mon, 15 Jan 2001 00:12:50 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 00:12:50 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-94-19.swipnet.se Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 00:12:48 +0100 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31179 China Blue White Supergiant hath written: >/ Ah, but that armor was bronze wasn't it? And ancient Greek >/ warriors carried the gladius or the spear -- very unlike the > >Gladius was a Roman sword. > >Steel weapons are about 3000 years old (whenever it was the Hittites >openned shop). Byrnies were used before the Norman invasion. Except for >the evolution of copper->bronze->steel->better steels, weaponery changed >very little from about 8000BC to AD1500. The only really unusual thing was >the medieval plate armour of the chevaliers: before then horse were too >weak to carry the load, after bullets could too easily pierce it. Well, actually there were some defnite improvements. During antiquity, someone in Greece or Asia Minor (I forget which) had the brilliant idea to put a handle on the backside of a shield; before then, the shield was attached to your body with a leather strap. The invention of stirrups in the 9th century A. D. made it easier for cavalrymen to remain seated in the saddle, and hence led to the gradual evolution of armroured knights; apparently Roman cavalry used high saddles to remain seated, but that is somewhat less nifty. Also, in medieval times they invented the crossbow, which was slower to reload (all that winding!) than the ordinary bow but could pierce armour. Those changes in weaponry are rather improtant, I should say. Öjevind ###### From: "RLV" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Lines: 30 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <%AM86.2580$T9.2556077@news.jazztel.es> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 01:42:12 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.106.240.21 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@jazztel.com X-Trace: news.jazztel.es 979604923 212.106.240.21 (Tue, 16 Jan 2001 01:28:43 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 01:28:43 CET Organization: Jazztel Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!newsinternetskywayteltow!post.skyway.de!news.jazztel.es!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31172 "China Blue White Supergiant" wrote in message news:mlindanne-1401011803450001@c145.ppp.tsoft.com... > / could pierce armour. Those changes in weaponry are rather improtant, I > / should say. > > There was little change in tactics. From the early city states until > widespread use of firearms, you got two groups of men at arms length > poking and stabbing and slashing until one side lost its nerve and ran > away. Horse mounted troops, chariots, cavalry, or chevaliers, rarely > decided the battle; they were there to harrass and then run down the > routing infantry. I'm afraid there are many, many exceptions to that rule. Mongols, Numindians, Saracens, many other relied mainly (sometimes only) in mounted troops. Even in Ancient infantry-based armies, the mounted arm was quite often the decisive arm, not just harassing and pursuing. Öjeving has already pointed out the dominance of the mounted knights during medieval times (up to Agyncourt et al). The Byzantines also dominated the field with their Cataphracted cavalry. R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Tilde Power!" ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue White Supergiant) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 18:45:04 -0800 Organization: Will pointlessly annoy people for food. Message-ID: References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <%AM86.2580$T9.2556077@news.jazztel.es> X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 29 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone-pass-sjo.usenetserver.com!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c169.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31185 / I'm afraid there are many, many exceptions to that rule. Mongols, / Numindians, Saracens, many other relied mainly (sometimes only) in mounted / troops. Only when there was no organised infantry to oppose them. A group of men of spears and polearms on foot can easily stop horses if they don't lose their nerve. / Even in Ancient infantry-based armies, the mounted arm was quite often the / decisive arm, not just harassing and pursuing. Like? / Öjeving has already pointed out the dominance of the mounted knights during / medieval times (up to Agyncourt et al). The Byzantines also dominated the / field with their Cataphracted cavalry. For various reasons, infantry was not popular in that period. In places were it was, like Switzerland, chevaliers were quickly dispatched. =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Sign up for WASHINGTON MUTUAL BANK's special We Rob You While You Sleep Service TODAY! =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 pretty pretty http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/ All new and improved web pages! Bookmark yours today! :)-free zone. Elect LUM World Dictator! ###### From: "Roder Ethar" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 03:16:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.68.94.94 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc2.on.home.com 979614998 24.68.94.94 (Mon, 15 Jan 2001 19:16:38 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 19:16:38 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!skynet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc2.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31182 "China Blue White Supergiant" wrote in message news:mlindanne-1401011803450001@c145.ppp.tsoft.com... > / could pierce armour. Those changes in weaponry are rather improtant, I > / should say. > > There was little change in tactics. From the early city states until > widespread use of firearms, you got two groups of men at arms length > poking and stabbing and slashing until one side lost its nerve and ran > away. Horse mounted troops, chariots, cavalry, or chevaliers, rarely > decided the battle; they were there to harrass and then run down the > routing infantry. The quality of the metal, stirrups, and other small > things had no long term effect. The losers would quickly adopt the > technology, and it would be up to the infantry again. > > With firearms, especially with rifles and machine guns, soldiers had to be > dispersed to survive. Modern societies can also supplies soldiers far from > home in all weathers and seasons. You simply can't be serious! Are you saying that there is no strategy in war other than 2 groups hacking each other to bits, until whoever has the most people/best trained people, wins? haven't you ever heard of tacticians and strategists? What do you think seperated a general from a soldier. Not only the fact that he could lead, but the fact that he was a brilliant tactician. What you're saying goes beyond silly! Also, I don't know if you've ever been in battle (hehe), but it's pretty hard to learn a technology while being hacked and poked at... I mean if someone was slashing me with a sword I probably wouldn't be looking at the stirups of the knight fighting next to me, against my buddy, and thinking "Hm... I bet we could make this metal, if we just took some of the stone in my back yard, and added a little of that yellow stuff, etc." ###### From: smokybarnable@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 11:12:14 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 28 Message-ID: <941aaa$ch8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93qvrr$1fb$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93r3p7$hbe$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93ru4v$41n$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93vp5s$454$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93vuj6$9cj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.120.155.66 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Jan 16 11:12:14 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x66.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 212.120.155.66 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsmokybarnable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.f.de.plusline.net!news.netcologne.de!news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31155 In article <93vuj6$9cj$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Meneldil wrote: > In article <93vp5s$454$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > smokybarnable@my-deja.com wrote: > > > Why Greek? Always seemed more Egyptian to me. > > > > I was really only talking about the Atlantis-myth influence on the > Drowning of Numenor. I had, however, always imagined the early > Numenoreans on the lines of the conventional picture of Athenians in > the age of Pericles (in terms of philosophy, learning and the arts). > I'd not connected them with the Egyptians till I saw your post. > > Cheers, > > Meneldil > D'oh. I'd completely forgotten the Atlantis myth implications, but then again all this cataclysm stuff is very eastern mediterranean anyway (biblical floods, gilgamesh etc) but AFAIK I don't remember any Egyptian disaster myths. Smoky Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: Thomas.Koenig@cologne.de Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: 16 Jan 2001 17:06:38 +0100 Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany Lines: 11 Message-ID: <941rie$7o3$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de 979661199 25983 129.13.201.66 X-Complaints-To: usenet@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!blackbush.xlink.net!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!news.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31188 Öjevind Lång wrote: >Medieval knights always ran down and destroyed armies of foot soldiers until >the English learned how to use the bow and arrow efficiently against them. Not quite. The Swiss, on foot, quite thorougly defeated the Habsburgs. Also, the period when the longbow was used effectively was not very long (maybe 80 years). When social conditions in Britain had changed so that shooting the longbow was no longer a popular pastime, its effectiveness was ended. ###### From: Thomas.Koenig@cologne.de Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: 16 Jan 2001 17:11:18 +0100 Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany Lines: 16 Message-ID: <941rr6$7p8$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de 979661479 26780 129.13.201.66 X-Complaints-To: usenet@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!news.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31187 China Blue White Supergiant wrote: >There was little change in tactics. From the early city states until >widespread use of firearms, you got two groups of men at arms length >poking and stabbing and slashing until one side lost its nerve and ran >away. You're oversimplifying to such a degree that I have a strong suspicion you're joking, right? :-) >Horse mounted troops, chariots, cavalry, or chevaliers, rarely >decided the battle; A minor conflict that was decided by heavy cavalry was the second war between Rome and Carthage (Is Punic war the correct English term?). ###### From: "Morgil" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93qvrr$1fb$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93r3p7$hbe$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93ru4v$41n$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93vp5s$454$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93vuj6$9cj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <941aaa$ch8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Lines: 23 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 16:33:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.197.13.93 X-Trace: read2.inet.fi 979662823 194.197.13.93 (Tue, 16 Jan 2001 18:33:43 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 18:33:43 EET Organization: Sonera corp Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!levitin.saunalahti.fi!nntp.inet.fi!central.inet.fi!inet.fi!read2.inet.fi.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31164 smokybarnable@my-deja.com kirjoitti viestissä <941aaa$ch8$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... >In article <93vuj6$9cj$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > Meneldil wrote: >> I was really only talking about the Atlantis-myth influence on the >> Drowning of Numenor. I had, however, always imagined the early >> Numenoreans on the lines of the conventional picture of Athenians in >> the age of Pericles (in terms of philosophy, learning and the arts). >> I'd not connected them with the Egyptians till I saw your post. >> >D'oh. I'd completely forgotten the Atlantis myth implications, but then >again all this cataclysm stuff is very eastern mediterranean anyway >(biblical floods, gilgamesh etc) but AFAIK I don't remember any >Egyptian disaster myths. Atlantis myth *is* Egyptian. Plato picked it up while visiting Egypt. Morgil ###### From: "Morgil" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <%AM86.2580$T9.2556077@news.jazztel.es> Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Lines: 14 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 16:34:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.197.13.93 X-Trace: read2.inet.fi 979662866 194.197.13.93 (Tue, 16 Jan 2001 18:34:26 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 18:34:26 EET Organization: Sonera corp Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!195.238.2.15!skynet.be!newsfeed1.funet.fi!news1.global-one.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!levitin.saunalahti.fi!nntp.inet.fi!central.inet.fi!inet.fi!read2.inet.fi.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31167 China Blue White Supergiant kirjoitti viestissä ... >/ Even in Ancient infantry-based armies, the mounted arm was quite often the >/ decisive arm, not just harassing and pursuing. > >Like? Macedonians. King Philip was the first to use cavalry that way. Morgil ###### From: "hoodedman" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93sf1b$fun$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Lines: 41 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 19:15:46 -0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.255.188.210 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 979672686 62.255.188.210 (Tue, 16 Jan 2001 19:18:06 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 19:18:06 GMT Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!grolier!btnet-peer0!btnet!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31146 i thought the men of Gondor seemed rather Byzantine.... I believe the name Meriadoc is found in old Cornish. Janet Hallaril wrote in message news:93sf1b$fun$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi... > the_mendicant wrote: > > RLV wrote: > > >> Bassically, oh surprise!, around the question: "Does > >> ME look Medieval?" Id est, if the technology, weaponry, > >> clothing and social system of ME would be similar to > >> Medieval Europe. > > > Well, given that there are swords, metal armor, Medieval- > > esque hierarchies and arrangements, the most obvious > > answer would be yes, George, Middle-earth is rather > > Medieval-looking. Perhaps this is just my lack of > > imagination on the subject, but what else could it be? > > I don't think one could pin-point a specific century > > (Tolkien does not delve into that level of specifics), > > though I never got the sense that there was anyone > > walking about in full suits of plate mail, so perhaps > > this narrows things down to a certain extent. I've > > always imagined it to be contemporaneous with the world > > of Beowulf -- but the historical accuracy of the epic > > itself is somewhat questionable. Gah, this whole > > debate is quite anal. > > > -- > > the_mendicant > > [gregbenedicto@hotmail.com] > > > > > Sent via Deja.com > > http://www.deja.com/ > > -- > ###### From: "RLV" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <%AM86.2580$T9.2556077@news.jazztel.es> Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 20:43:00 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.106.244.243 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@jazztel.com X-Trace: news.jazztel.es 979673364 212.106.244.243 (Tue, 16 Jan 2001 20:29:24 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 20:29:24 CET Organization: Jazztel Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!newsinternetskywayteltow!post.skyway.de!news.jazztel.es!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31175 "Morgil" wrote in message news:mK_86.258$Lq6.19783@read2.inet.fi... > > China Blue White Supergiant kirjoitti viestissä ... > > >/ Even in Ancient infantry-based armies, the mounted arm was quite often > the > >/ decisive arm, not just harassing and pursuing. > > > >Like? > > Macedonians. King Philip was the first to use cavalry that way. And Alexander brought it to a maximum. He said (IIRC) that the Companions were his hammer and the Phalanx was his anvil. R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Tilde Power!" ###### From: "RLV" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <%AM86.2580$T9.2556077@news.jazztel.es> Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Lines: 51 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 20:53:52 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.106.244.243 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@jazztel.com X-Trace: news.jazztel.es 979674016 212.106.244.243 (Tue, 16 Jan 2001 20:40:16 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 20:40:16 CET Organization: Jazztel Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!ams-newsfeed.speedport.net!newsfeed.speedport.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!skynet.be!195.206.66.162.MISMATCH!Amsterdam.Infonet!newsinternetskywayteltow!post.skyway.de!news.jazztel.es!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31176 "China Blue White Supergiant" wrote in message news:mlindanne-1501011845050001@c169.ppp.tsoft.com... > / I'm afraid there are many, many exceptions to that rule. Mongols, > / Numindians, Saracens, many other relied mainly (sometimes only) in mounted > / troops. > > Only when there was no organised infantry to oppose them. > > A group of men of spears and polearms on foot can easily stop horses if > they don't lose their nerve. The Mongols would not care to approach them. They would simply ride close, shoot their bows and ride away. A few passes like that and the footmen would be running. Otherwise a few passes more and they would be dead. The Mongols ruled a continent. They faced organised infantry. They won. The Numidians won several encounters against the Romans using similar tactics. Roman infantry had nerve. It's just too hard to resist being used as a pincushion while you are unable to do anything. These are examples of primarily mounted armies. Many other nations (most?) used the mounted arm as an important part of their armies, not just to "harass and pursue". The Egyptian charots were used as shock weapons. This is even truer of the Hitites. Germanic and Gaul cavalry was certainly not used just to harass, but to charge. The successors to Alexander tried to mimic his use of cavalry. Not to speak about the Elephants. > / Öjeving has already pointed out the dominance of the mounted knights during > / medieval times (up to Agyncourt et al). The Byzantines also dominated the > / field with their Cataphracted cavalry. > > For various reasons, infantry was not popular in that period. In places > were it was, like Switzerland, chevaliers were quickly dispatched. What do you mean "infantry was not popular"? But anyway, whatever the cause, cavalry was the main weapon and was not just used to "harass and pursue". R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Tilde Power!" ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: 17 Jan 2001 01:29:15 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 51 Message-ID: <6u1yu3yqas.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <%AM86.2580$T9.2556077@news.jazztel.es> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 979691355 3281 10.0.3.2 (17 Jan 2001 00:29:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jan 2001 00:29:15 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31199 mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue White Supergiant) writes: > / I'm afraid there are many, many exceptions to that rule. Mongols, > / Numindians, Saracens, many other relied mainly (sometimes only) in mounted > / troops. > > Only when there was no organised infantry to oppose them. Rather: cavalery wins when it has got open space to turn its speed into an hit and run advantage. This was the case in Asia, Near East, Egypt, ... This was not the case in large parts of Europe until way after 1000. In 1000 we still had >90% forrest here. > / Öjeving has already pointed out the dominance of the mounted knights during > / medieval times (up to Agyncourt et al). The Byzantines also dominated the > / field with their Cataphracted cavalry. > > For various reasons, infantry was not popular in that period. In places > were it was, like Switzerland, chevaliers were quickly dispatched. The Swiss beat the Habsburgians by using the territory to their advantage: narroy Vallays, only one path through, heavy forrests (bad sight for Habsburg) followed by open (good sight for Swiss), steep sides and attacks hilldownwards, often opened with avalanches of trees and rocks dehorsing the Habsburgians. Add to that an very ruddged mountain-dwelling semi-wild population with an centuries-long tradition of inter-family warring and raiding [1] in that territory, fighting for their lives, againgst paid (or even worse forced) soldiers. [1] our medieval LARP group a few months ago went to view an amateur film about that time (actually about 100 years before it, but that makes no difference). This had such an family feud as its core action. We of cource went in costume and exiting the film met the filmer (there were only 4 showings and he was there for all of them) and had an 1/2 hour discussion with him. As part of his motivation he declared that he wanted to document the mentality of the people in those places, right into this century (!). He himself (about 40 years old) still saw knife fights on his school grouds that stemmed from such century old conflicts between families or villages. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng FH/BSc, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: 17 Jan 2001 01:49:17 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 55 Message-ID: <6uy9wbxasy.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 979692557 3298 10.0.3.2 (17 Jan 2001 00:49:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jan 2001 00:49:17 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31200 "Öjevind Lång" writes: > China Blue White Supergiant hath written: > > >Steel weapons are about 3000 years old (whenever it was the Hittites _Iron_ weapons. Steel (iron with uniform carbon distribution, min 0.76%, max 1.5%) is an relatively new (19th century) invention. Before that you had either low carbon (>0.3%) relatively soft [1] iron or high (>2.5%) non-uniform carbon brittle iron. [1] possible with hardened surface by carbonating the finished part. > >very little from about 8000BC to AD1500. The only really unusual thing was > >the medieval plate armour of the chevaliers: And richer infantry, particularly professional soldiers. > >before then horse were too > >weak to carry the load, after bullets could too easily pierce it. > > somewhat less nifty. Also, in medieval times they invented the crossbow, > which was slower to reload (all that winding!) than the ordinary bow but > could pierce armour. Longbows can pierce armor. Particularly with bodkin style (massive) points and heavy arrows and strong bows. The main advantage of an crossbow is that anyone can use it. Aim and pull the trigger, like an gun. A longbow takes an trained fighter (training for accuracy [1] and for strength [2]). Such were only available in countries where people hunted by bow and used it for sport (with many other sports forbidden, like in England). [1] it takes lots of time to learn the eye/arrowpoint coordination to aim precisely, and the positioning is dependant on target distance. I know this all too well, because I shoot longbow as sport. [2] late-medieval (1300-1500) military longbows were 120-170 pound strength (Mary Rose measurements). Todays sport bows are 30 (high tech gear) to 70 (hunting longbow). I shoot 50. And contrarily to widely held oppinion, longbows are not an medieval english invention. They were already known in neolithic times. Short bows are an antique introduction, more finicky, but better from horse back (no hitting the horse when changing side for next shot). -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng FH/BSc, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: smokybarnable@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 20:07:00 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 33 Message-ID: <9429kt$8qh$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93qvrr$1fb$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93r3p7$hbe$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93ru4v$41n$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93vp5s$454$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93vuj6$9cj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <941aaa$ch8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.120.155.66 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Jan 16 20:07:00 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x70.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 212.120.155.66 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsmokybarnable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31202 In article , "Morgil" wrote: > > smokybarnable@my-deja.com kirjoitti viestissä > <941aaa$ch8$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... > >In article <93vuj6$9cj$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > Meneldil wrote: > > >> I was really only talking about the Atlantis-myth influence on the > >> Drowning of Numenor. I had, however, always imagined the early > >> Numenoreans on the lines of the conventional picture of Athenians in > >> the age of Pericles (in terms of philosophy, learning and the arts). > >> I'd not connected them with the Egyptians till I saw your post. > >> > >D'oh. I'd completely forgotten the Atlantis myth implications, but then > >again all this cataclysm stuff is very eastern mediterranean anyway > >(biblical floods, gilgamesh etc) but AFAIK I don't remember any > >Egyptian disaster myths. > > Atlantis myth *is* Egyptian. Plato picked it up while visiting Egypt. > > Morgil > Ah! Now it's all becoming clearer. Thanks. Smoky Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: "Robert Shaw" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 21:06:56 -0000 Organization: None Lines: 23 Message-ID: <942qis$aq1$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93qvrr$1fb$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93r3p7$hbe$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93ru4v$41n$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93vp5s$454$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93vuj6$9cj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <941aaa$ch8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-228.oxygen.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news8.svr.pol.co.uk 979692956 11073 62.136.7.228 (17 Jan 2001 00:55:56 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Jan 2001 00:55:56 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!merapi!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!fu-berlin.de!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31209 "Morgil" wrote > > Meneldil wrote: > > >D'oh. I'd completely forgotten the Atlantis myth implications, but then > >again all this cataclysm stuff is very eastern mediterranean anyway > >(biblical floods, gilgamesh etc) but AFAIK I don't remember any > >Egyptian disaster myths. > > Atlantis myth *is* Egyptian. Plato picked it up while visiting Egypt. > No, Plato said Solon had learnt the story in Egypt, two centuries earlier. There is no independant confirmation of this, and no known trace of Atlantis in Egyptian records. That doesn't mean it isn't an Egyptian myth, but it may also have been a parable invented by Plato, which he attributed to a renowned dead philosopher to give it more authority. He wouldn't be the last author to do that. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <%AM86.2580$T9.2556077@news.jazztel.es> Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Lines: 17 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 23:53:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.70.204 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 979689208 12.78.70.204 (Tue, 16 Jan 2001 23:53:28 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 23:53:28 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31206 "China Blue White Supergiant" wrote in message news:mlindanne-1501011845050001@c169.ppp.tsoft.com... >> Even in Ancient infantry-based armies, the mounted arm was quite >> often the decisive arm, not just harassing and pursuing. > Like? Hannibal. Cannae. The center of the infantry lines continued to give back while the flanks held their ground... eventually allowing the Romans to push the Carthaginians back into a 'U' shape. At which point the Carthaginian cavalry rode around, closed off the end of the 'U' and put the Romans in a completely encircled killing field. Cavalry mobility was crucial to the trap. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <941rr6$7p8$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <7f596.3613$4y6.259328@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 23:58:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.70.204 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 979689539 12.78.70.204 (Tue, 16 Jan 2001 23:58:59 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 23:58:59 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31207 wrote in message news:941rr6$7p8$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de... > A minor conflict that was decided by heavy cavalry was the second > war between Rome and Carthage (Is Punic war the correct English > term?). Yes, 'Punic' is correct. Heh... the Carthaginians had some seriously HEAVY cavalry. Something they had in common with the Southrons. ###### From: Meneldil Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 00:18:15 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 21 Message-ID: <942obv$m4h$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93qvrr$1fb$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93r3p7$hbe$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93ru4v$41n$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93vp5s$454$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93vuj6$9cj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <941aaa$ch8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.82.103.37 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Jan 17 00:18:15 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT; University of East Anglia) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 wwwcache1.uea.ac.uk:8080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE4), 1.0 tomato.ulcc.wwwcache.ja.net:8080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE5-hno.20000202), 1.0 x54.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 139.222.126.112, 139.222.128.2, 194.82.103.37 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDmeneldil Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31203 In article , "Morgil" wrote: > Atlantis myth *is* Egyptian. Plato picked it up while visiting Egypt. > Actually, IIRC Plato in /Timaeus/ (speaking through Socrates) says that he heard of the Atlantis myth from Solon, who brought the tale with him from the city of Sais (spelling?), Egypt. Conveniently enough, Solon had other pressing business to attend to on his return to Greece and never fully wrote down the tale. I believe Aristotle actually accused Plato of making the whole story up to support his theories in /The Republic/. Cheers, Meneldil Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: "RLV" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <941rr6$7p8$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <7f596.3613$4y6.259328@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 01:18:36 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.106.240.17 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@jazztel.com X-Trace: news.jazztel.es 979689899 212.106.240.17 (Wed, 17 Jan 2001 01:04:59 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 01:04:59 CET Organization: Jazztel Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newsinternetskywayteltow!post.skyway.de!news.jazztel.es!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31210 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:7f596.3613$4y6.259328@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > wrote in message > news:941rr6$7p8$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de... > > > A minor conflict that was decided by heavy cavalry was the second > > war between Rome and Carthage (Is Punic war the correct English > > term?). > > Yes, 'Punic' is correct. > > Heh... the Carthaginians had some seriously HEAVY cavalry. > Something they had in common with the Southrons. HEAVY indeed. And spiky. But the Carthaginians could not compete with the Diodachoi, the successors to Alexander, in that regard. In one battle (can't recall which one right now) fought some 500 elephants. For one side they formed the front of the line, with infantry advancing besides them. One dreads to think how... "slippery" the advance would be for the men behind the elephants, specially on a hot summer day in Asia Minor. R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Gas masks anyone?" ###### From: "RLV" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <%AM86.2580$T9.2556077@news.jazztel.es> Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Lines: 38 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 01:25:07 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.106.240.17 X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@jazztel.com X-Trace: news.jazztel.es 979690290 212.106.240.17 (Wed, 17 Jan 2001 01:11:30 CET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 01:11:30 CET Organization: Jazztel Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!Amsterdam.Infonet!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newsinternetskywayteltow!post.skyway.de!news.jazztel.es!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31211 "Conrad Dunkerson" : > "China Blue White Supergiant": > >> Even in Ancient infantry-based armies, the mounted arm was quite > >> often the decisive arm, not just harassing and pursuing. > > > Like? > > Hannibal. Cannae. The center of the infantry lines continued to > give back while the flanks held their ground... eventually allowing > the Romans to push the Carthaginians back into a 'U' shape. At > which point the Carthaginian cavalry rode around, closed off the > end of the 'U' and put the Romans in a completely encircled killing > field. Cavalry mobility was crucial to the trap. Or Zama, where Scipio defeated Hannibal with his own weapons. Literally: for a change the Romans had an advantage in cavalry, because they had the help of many Numinidans (great horse warriors). While the elephants and the infantry were exchanging blows in the center, the Numidian-Roman drove away the numerically inferior Numindian-Carthaginian cavalry and fell on the backs of the Carthaginian infantry, winning the day. Examples are numerous. Whenever cavalry was available in significant numbers it was a serious threat to infantry due to their superior mobility. A notable exception would be pre-Alexander Greek battles. These consisted mainly of two lines of hoplites (heavy spear-armed infantry) front to front. They both made a short run, smashed into each other and pushed. The side which gave in first lost the battle. Cavalry was scarce and used mainly to defend the flanks of the hoplite lines from enemy cavalry or light infantry. R.L.V. ~~#~~ "Tilde Power!" ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: grendel.nauticom@verizon.net (Geoffrey S. Kane) Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6uy9wbxasy.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 31 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 05:11:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 151.201.234.101 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon2.ba-dsg.net 979708276 151.201.234.101 (Wed, 17 Jan 2001 00:11:16 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 00:11:16 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!199.45.45.8!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon2.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!infinia Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31218 There's no doubt that modern steel is a 19th century process. But Damask and patternwelded weapons are closer to steel than iron. The big problem with steel in pre-modern times was generating the great amounts of heat that were required. This limited you to making small items, or heating the items repeatedly until the carbon was more uniformly distributed. Jeff In article <6uy9wbxasy.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >_Iron_ weapons. > >Steel (iron with uniform carbon distribution, min 0.76%, max 1.5%) is >an relatively new (19th century) invention. Before that you had either >low carbon (>0.3%) relatively soft [1] iron or high (>2.5%) non-uniform >carbon brittle iron. > >[1] possible with hardened surface by carbonating the finished part. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Geoffrey S. Kane mailto:grendel.nauticom@verizon.net ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Wyrd oft nereð unfægne eorl, þonne his ellen deah." "Fate saves the living when they drive away death by themselves" --Beowulf lineS 572-3 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 21:35:29 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6uy9wbxasy.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!gatel-ffm!codeine.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31225 On 17 Jan 2001 01:49:17 +0100, Neil Franklin wrote: >> China Blue White Supergiant hath written: >> >> >Steel weapons are about 3000 years old (whenever it was the Hittites > >_Iron_ weapons. > >Steel (iron with uniform carbon distribution, min 0.76%, max 1.5%) is >an relatively new (19th century) invention. Before that you had either >low carbon (>0.3%) relatively soft [1] iron or high (>2.5%) non-uniform >carbon brittle iron. > >[1] possible with hardened surface by carbonating the finished part. > Weapons containing steel were known by at least 1000 AD. Bulk steel was not. Pattern welded swords (Syrian and Viking manufacture) contained very thin layers of steel sandwiched between very thin layers of wrought iron. Frequently these swords had high carbon cast iron edges. The result was a very tough sword with a sharpenable edge. The layers were formed by repeated hammering thin the original wrought iron and then folding it, case hardening it in charcoal, and repeating the process multiple times. The final edges were formed by case hardening the result in charcoal. Micro analysis of the swords reveals definite steel. The samurai sword makers of Japan (c. 1650 AD) obtained a similar result. the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Visualize using your turn signal. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 21:35:30 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <008a6tkhfpm4pa52oqqtlln3fmi7hn68u7@4ax.com> References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93qvrr$1fb$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93r3p7$hbe$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93ru4v$41n$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93vp5s$454$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93vuj6$9cj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <941aaa$ch8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <942qis$aq1$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31224 On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 21:06:56 -0000, "Robert Shaw" wrote: > >"Morgil" wrote > > Meneldil >wrote: >> >> >D'oh. I'd completely forgotten the Atlantis myth implications, but then >> >again all this cataclysm stuff is very eastern mediterranean anyway >> >(biblical floods, gilgamesh etc) but AFAIK I don't remember any >> >Egyptian disaster myths. >> >> Atlantis myth *is* Egyptian. Plato picked it up while visiting Egypt. >> >No, Plato said Solon had learnt the story in Egypt, two centuries earlier. >There is no independant confirmation of this, and no known trace of >Atlantis in Egyptian records. That doesn't mean it isn't an Egyptian >myth, but it may also have been a parable invented by Plato, which he >attributed to a renowned dead philosopher to give it more authority. >He wouldn't be the last author to do that. > Yes. All available data indicate that Plato made up the story of Atlantis to illustrate a point and attributed it to an ancient authority, somewhat like JRRT and the Red Book of Westmarch. Once the story hit the Middle Ages, the storytellers amplified the story and the concepts. This process has continued down to the present day. For a recent example, there is JRRT and his tale of Numenor. the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Visualize using your turn signal. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 21:47:47 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <941rie$7o3$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31227 On 16 Jan 2001 17:06:38 +0100, Thomas.Koenig@cologne.de wrote: >Öjevind Lång wrote: > >>Medieval knights always ran down and destroyed armies of foot soldiers until >>the English learned how to use the bow and arrow efficiently against them. > >Not quite. The Swiss, on foot, quite thorougly defeated the Habsburgs. > Well, yes, but this is part of the beginning of the transition period away from heavily armed horsemen back to foot soldiers. Other examples occurred during the Hundred Years War (the Battles of Crecy and Agincourt) and on throughout fifteenth century. Almost all of this fighting preceeds the general use of handheld firearms which did not occur until the early seventeenth century (the Thirty Years War). the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Are you still here? The message is over. Shoo! Go away! ###### From: skylar@starfleet.attglobal.net (Skylar Thompson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Medieval Middle-earth debate (?!) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 11:45:52 GMT Organization: Utumno Lines: 25 Sender: skylar@utumno.attglobal.net Distribution: World Message-ID: References: <93lgt9$3j6$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93obu1$ha0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93pieu$br9$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <93ptr5$kod$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6uy9wbxasy.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Reply-To: skylar@attglobal.net (Skylar Thompson) X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.9d - NLS NNTP-Posting-Host: 32.101.12.186 X-Trace: 17 Jan 2001 20:43:55 GMT, 32.101.12.186 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prserv.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.us.ibm.net!ibm.net!news3.prserv.net!rhino_house.attglobal.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:31255 In <6uy9wbxasy.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin writes: >"Öjevind Lång" writes: > >> China Blue White Supergiant hath written: >> >> >Steel weapons are about 3000 years old (whenever it was the Hittites > >_Iron_ weapons. > >Steel (iron with uniform carbon distribution, min 0.76%, max 1.5%) is >an relatively new (19th century) invention. Before that you had either >low carbon (>0.3%) relatively soft [1] iron or high (>2.5%) non-uniform >carbon brittle iron. I thought that many of the large swords (i.e. longswords, bastard swords, Zwëihanders) were completely of steel make. How else would they be able to support their weight? --Skylar Thompson (skylar@attglobal.net) `All that is gold does not glitter/Not all who wander are lost The old that is strong does not wither/Deep roots are not reached by the frost From the ashes a fire shall be woken/A light from the shadows shall spring Renewed shall be blade that was broken/The crownless again shall be king.'