From: the_mendicant Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Elven Physiology Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 00:56:27 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 32 Message-ID: <92r8vp$quf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.150.251.56 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Jan 02 00:56:27 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x69.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.150.251.56 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDthe_mendicant Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30843 I just started re-reading TLotR (a monumental task, as my reading-pace is rather snail-like), and I was reminded of a question that has been nagging me for years. Tolkien's Elves (as far as I can tell, though none of this is fresh in my mind) seem never to be described in any detail. We know much of their history, but how much to we know about what they looked like? In art the Elves are depicted as having the (by now familiar) pointy ears and angular eyebrows, beardless faces, and thin and graceful bodies. They are somewhat shorter than Men but taller than Dwarves. Is any of this backed up by Tolkien? or is it all based on traditional conceptions of elf-like beings gleaned from older sources? I recall that Cirdan the Shipwright had a long beard, which rather contradicts the clean- shaven (or peach-fuzzed) stereotype. And it seems rather silly that the First Kindred should be so short (at least in relation to Men). Plus, I've never been a big fan of pointy ears (Star Trek blew it for me). -- the_mendicant [gregbenedicto@hotmail.com] Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: Hallaril Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Physiology Date: 2 Jan 2001 01:45:49 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 14 Message-ID: <92rbsd$q9f$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> References: <92r8vp$quf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 978399949 26927 128.214.205.14 (2 Jan 2001 01:45:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jan 2001 01:45:49 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!lmu.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!news1.global-one.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30848 the_mendicant wrote: > looked like? In art the Elves are depicted as > having the (by now familiar) pointy ears and > angular eyebrows, beardless faces, and thin and > graceful bodies. You haven't seen pictures of Celebimbor or Feanor? They are somewhat shorter than > Men but taller than Dwarves. The tallest of all children of eru was Thingol (an elf) 8'0. Galadriel was 6'4. ###### From: the_mendicant Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Physiology Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 13:08:44 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 21 Message-ID: <92sjsp$pql$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <92r8vp$quf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92rbsd$q9f$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.150.251.15 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Jan 02 13:08:44 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x53.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.150.251.15 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDthe_mendicant Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30860 Hallaril wrote: > You haven't seen pictures of Celebimbor or Feanor? No. I have Houghton Mifflin's PICTURES BY J. R. R. TOLKIEN, but I do not recall seing either of them. > The tallest of all children of eru was Thingol (an > elf) 8'0. Galadriel was 6'4. This makes much more sense. Elvenkind towers over Man in all other respects -- why not height? -- the_mendicant [gregbenedicto@hotmail.com] Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Physiology Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 08:25:05 -0500 Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3A51D6B0.53F94FF8@erols.com> References: <92r8vp$quf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: UmFuZG9tSVbfyie/3pT5+7kDm0soj/77Ijojt4XutPJZPkAAsnELjzKWh/wk+pRi X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jan 2001 19:36:51 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.news.rcn.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30855 the_mendicant wrote: > Plus, I've > never been a big fan of pointy ears (Star Trek > blew it for me). What? The Vulcans are one of my favorite races! > -- > the_mendicant > [gregbenedicto@hotmail.com] Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight Elbereth Gilthoniel! ###### From: Hallaril Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Physiology Date: 2 Jan 2001 15:42:35 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 9 Message-ID: <92sstb$8k9$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> References: <92r8vp$quf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92rbsd$q9f$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <92sjsp$pql$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 978450155 8841 128.214.205.14 (2 Jan 2001 15:42:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jan 2001 15:42:35 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30865 the_mendicant wrote: > Hallaril wrote: >> You haven't seen pictures of Celebimbor or Feanor? > No. I have Houghton Mifflin's PICTURES BY J. R. R. > TOLKIEN, but I do not recall seing either of them. ftp://ftp.sunet.se/pub/pictures/fantasy/Tolkien/angus011.gif ###### From: d_ketchum Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Physiology Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 20:33:48 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 28 Message-ID: <92tdvc$gj0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <92r8vp$quf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92rbsd$q9f$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <92sjsp$pql$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.216.16.155 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Jan 02 20:33:48 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x51.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 150.216.16.155 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDd_ketchum Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!opentransit.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30872 In article <92sjsp$pql$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, the_mendicant wrote: > Hallaril wrote: > > > You haven't seen pictures of Celebimbor or Feanor? > > No. I have Houghton Mifflin's PICTURES BY J. R. R. > TOLKIEN, but I do not recall seing either of them. > > > The tallest of all children of eru was Thingol (an > > elf) 8'0. Galadriel was 6'4. > > This makes much more sense. Elvenkind towers over > Man in all other respects -- why not height? > > Come on. Elves don't even have free will. They are just pathetic little puppets in the hands of fate. Man, with all his blundering, blind sillyness, can still do as he pleases and say to hell with everybody. "Oh yeah!" he said, with the Ride of the Valkyries booming in the background. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: Meneldil Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Physiology Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 23:20:14 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 21 Message-ID: <92tnn6$pjs$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <92r8vp$quf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A51D6B0.53F94FF8@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.82.103.37 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Jan 02 23:20:14 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT; University of East Anglia) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 wwwcache1.uea.ac.uk:8080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE4), 1.0 tomato.ulcc.wwwcache.ja.net:8080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE5-hno.20000103), 1.0 x61.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 139.222.126.114, 139.222.128.2, 194.82.103.37 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDmeneldil Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30875 In article <3A51D6B0.53F94FF8@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: > > > the_mendicant wrote: > > > Plus, I've > > never been a big fan of pointy ears (Star Trek > > blew it for me). > > What? The Vulcans are one of my favorite races! > To extend a heated discussion of some months ago... since Vulcans and humans can interbreed, they're one race ;-) Meneldil Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <92r8vp$quf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A51D6B0.53F94FF8@erols.com> <92tnn6$pjs$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Elven Physiology Lines: 11 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 23:33:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.122 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 978478422 12.79.22.122 (Tue, 02 Jan 2001 23:33:42 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 23:33:42 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30886 "Meneldil" wrote in message news:92tnn6$pjs$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > To extend a heated discussion of some months ago... since Vulcans > and humans can interbreed, they're one race ;-) Which was actually established as truth during the 'Next Generation' series. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <92r8vp$quf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92rbsd$q9f$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <92sjsp$pql$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92sstb$8k9$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> Subject: Re: Elven Physiology Lines: 15 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 23:35:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.122 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 978478535 12.79.22.122 (Tue, 02 Jan 2001 23:35:35 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 23:35:35 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30878 "Hallaril" wrote in message news:92sstb$8k9$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi... > > Hallaril wrote: > >> You haven't seen pictures of Celebimbor or Feanor? > ftp://ftp.sunet.se/pub/pictures/fantasy/Tolkien/angus011.gif An ICE cover if I recall correctly. In any case, not Tolkien's own representation of elves. The best we have for that is a rather tiny image of Beleg that may or may not have a beard and pointy ears. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <92r8vp$quf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Elven Physiology Lines: 30 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 23:43:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.122 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 978478993 12.79.22.122 (Tue, 02 Jan 2001 23:43:13 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 23:43:13 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!merapi!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30879 "the_mendicant" wrote in message news:92r8vp$quf$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In art the Elves are depicted as having the (by now familiar) > pointy ears and angular eyebrows, beardless faces, and thin and > graceful bodies. They are somewhat shorter than Men but taller > than Dwarves. Is any of this backed up by Tolkien? In Tolkien's texts there are indications that the Elves were as tall or taller than Men (though this changed over time) and that they were thin and graceful. There is some evidence in favor of pointed ears (most notably, "Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped"), but this is disputed by many who dislike them. I can't think of any text relating to elven eyebrows. > I recall that Cirdan the Shipwright had a long beard, which > rather contradicts the clean- shaven (or peach-fuzzed) > stereotype. Cirdan is actually something of an exception, having also been said to have been AGED. There are other indications in the texts pointing towards beardlessness in Elves and an explicit but esoteric statement indicating that they could only grow beards at a later 'cycle of life' - without sufficient (that is, ANY) information as to just what these 'cycles of life' were. Thus, showing most Elves without beards is not an unreasonable interpretation. ###### From: Hallaril Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Physiology Date: 3 Jan 2001 10:40:33 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 19 Message-ID: <92uvj1$5ps$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> References: <92r8vp$quf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92rbsd$q9f$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <92sjsp$pql$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92sstb$8k9$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 978518433 5948 128.214.205.14 (3 Jan 2001 10:40:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 Jan 2001 10:40:33 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30892 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > "Hallaril" wrote in message > news:92sstb$8k9$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi... >> > Hallaril wrote: >> >> You haven't seen pictures of Celebimbor or Feanor? >> ftp://ftp.sunet.se/pub/pictures/fantasy/Tolkien/angus011.gif > An ICE cover if I recall correctly. In any case, not Tolkien's > own representation of elves. The best we have for that is a rather > tiny image of Beleg that may or may not have a beard and pointy > ears. Correct. -- ###### From: Meneldil Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Physiology Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 21:39:43 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 26 Message-ID: <93066t$qdm$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <92r8vp$quf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92rbsd$q9f$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <92sjsp$pql$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92sstb$8k9$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <92uvj1$5ps$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.82.103.45 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Jan 03 21:39:43 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT; University of East Anglia) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 wwwcache1.uea.ac.uk:8080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE4), 1.0 fides.ulcc.wwwcache.ja.net:8080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE5-hno.20000202), 1.0 x56.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 139.222.126.110, 139.222.128.2, 194.82.103.45 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDmeneldil Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30918 In article <92uvj1$5ps$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, Hallaril wrote: > Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > "Hallaril" wrote in message > > news:92sstb$8k9$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi... > > >> > Hallaril wrote: > > >> >> You haven't seen pictures of Celebimbor or Feanor? > >> ftp://ftp.sunet.se/pub/pictures/fantasy/Tolkien/angus011.gif > > > An ICE cover if I recall correctly. In any case, not Tolkien's > > own representation of elves. The best we have for that is a rather > > tiny image of Beleg that may or may not have a beard and pointy > > ears. > > Correct. > And an even tinier image of Gwindor in the same picture, IIRC. Meneldil Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Physiology Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 00:28:47 +0200 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 26 Message-ID: <93096i$rhh$1@usenet.otenet.gr> References: <92r8vp$quf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92rbsd$q9f$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <92sjsp$pql$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92tdvc$gj0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p171.otenet.gr X-Trace: usenet.otenet.gr 978561045 28209 212.205.253.171 (3 Jan 2001 22:30:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 22:30:45 +0000 (UTC) X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!merapi!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!feeder.qis.net!btnet-peer!btnet!news-hub.cableinet.net!uunet!ash.uu.net!dfw.uu.net!arb.uu.net!nyc.uu.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30933 d_ketchum wrote in message news:92tdvc$gj0$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <92sjsp$pql$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > the_mendicant wrote: > > Hallaril wrote: > > > > > You haven't seen pictures of Celebimbor or Feanor? > > > > No. I have Houghton Mifflin's PICTURES BY J. R. R. > > TOLKIEN, but I do not recall seing either of them. > > > > > The tallest of all children of eru was Thingol (an > > > elf) 8'0. Galadriel was 6'4. > > > > This makes much more sense. Elvenkind towers over > > Man in all other respects -- why not height? > > Come on. Elves don't even have free will. Yes they do. Fate doesn't preclude free will. Aris Katsaris ###### From: Meneldil Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Physiology Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 10:23:07 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 32 Message-ID: <931iu8$ukv$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <92r8vp$quf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92rbsd$q9f$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <92sjsp$pql$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92tdvc$gj0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93096i$rhh$1@usenet.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.82.103.45 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Jan 04 10:23:07 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT; University of East Anglia) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 wwwcache1.uea.ac.uk:8080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE4), 1.0 fides.ulcc.wwwcache.ja.net:8080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE5-hno.20000202), 1.0 x51.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 139.222.126.107, 139.222.128.2, 194.82.103.45 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDmeneldil Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30921 In article <93096i$rhh$1@usenet.otenet.gr>, "Aris Katsaris" wrote: > > d_ketchum wrote in message > news:92tdvc$gj0$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > Come on. Elves don't even have free will. > > Yes they do. Fate doesn't preclude free will. > However, the Athrabeth does seem to indicate that their extent of free will is lesser than that of men. Andreth complains that the 'Valar do not trouble us either with care or with instruction. They sent no summons to us.' Finrod replies by asking Andreth if she'd ever considerd: 'that ye, the Children of Men, were not a matter that they could govern? For ye were too great. Yea, I mean this, and do not only flatter your pride: too great. Sole masters of yourselves within Arda, under the hand of the One.' Since the Valar _did_ send a summons to the Elves, and _did not_ send a summons to Men, it follows IMEHO that Finrod, at least, thought that Men could be masters of themselves in a way that Elves could not, which to me indicates a freer will. - Meneldil Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: Hallaril Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Physiology Date: 4 Jan 2001 11:16:26 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 14 Message-ID: <931m2a$mdl$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> References: <92r8vp$quf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92rbsd$q9f$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <92sjsp$pql$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92tdvc$gj0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93096i$rhh$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <931iu8$ukv$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 978606986 22965 128.214.205.14 (4 Jan 2001 11:16:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jan 2001 11:16:26 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30944 Meneldil wrote: > Since the Valar _did_ send a summons to the Elves, and _did not_ send a > summons to Men, it follows IMEHO that Finrod, at least, thought that > Men could be masters of themselves in a way that Elves could not, which > to me indicates a freer will. This is different thing than free will. They had freer governance the Valar didn't try to rule them as they did to the elves. Fëanor was sentenced for 12 years of exile but he still had the free will to come back to Tuna without the consent of Valar. Men were not ordered the same way. Hallaril ###### From: Meneldil Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Physiology Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 19:18:37 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 46 Message-ID: <932ia2$q10$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <92r8vp$quf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92rbsd$q9f$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <92sjsp$pql$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92tdvc$gj0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93096i$rhh$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <931iu8$ukv$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <931m2a$mdl$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.82.103.45 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Jan 04 19:18:37 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT; University of East Anglia) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 wwwcache1.uea.ac.uk:8080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE4), 1.0 fides.ulcc.wwwcache.ja.net:8080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE5-hno.20000202), 1.0 x59.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 139.222.126.107, 139.222.128.2, 194.82.103.45 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDmeneldil Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30912 In article <931m2a$mdl$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, Hallaril wrote: > Meneldil wrote: > > > Since the Valar _did_ send a summons to the Elves, and _did not_ > > send a > > summons to Men, it follows IMEHO that Finrod, at least, thought that > > Men could be masters of themselves in a way that Elves could not, > > which > > to me indicates a freer will. > > This is different thing than free will. They had freer governance the > Valar didn't try to rule them as they did to the elves. Fëanor was > sentenced for 12 years of exile but he still had the free will to come > back to Tuna without the consent of Valar. Men were not ordered the > same > way. > Let me rephrase the idea that I was, in my own clumsy way, trying to convey: Men could be masters of themselves in a way Elves could not, because the Valar did not (and could not have) governed Men the way they governed Elves. This fundamental difference in the extent of the power the Valar had over Elves and Men gave Men a freer rein in handling their own affairs. Though Elves and Men may have had similar decisional capabilities, Men were in practise therefore freer to exercise that choice without being subject to Valarin influence; they were only subject to Eru's direct governance (at least, that's what Finrod seems to be saying). For instance, Feanor did exercise his choice to rebel, but look where it got him. He was sentenced to perpetually remain in Mandos (in addition to accidentally killing his own son, though that wasn't the Valar's doing). The Valar couldn't do that to Men - their "punishment" for their fall (the severance of their hroar from their fear after death) came direct from Eru. Cheers, Meneldil Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: Hallaril Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Physiology Date: 4 Jan 2001 22:02:49 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 6 Message-ID: <932ru9$p2b$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> References: <92r8vp$quf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92rbsd$q9f$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <92sjsp$pql$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92tdvc$gj0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <93096i$rhh$1@usenet.otenet.gr> <931iu8$ukv$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <931m2a$mdl$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <932ia2$q10$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kruuna.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 978645769 25675 128.214.205.14 (4 Jan 2001 22:02:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jan 2001 22:02:49 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.8 (sun4u)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!130.227.3.83.MISMATCH!neel.uni2.net!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30943 Meneldil wrote: snip everything Now I agree with you fully.