From: m_nikula@hotmail.com (Miika Nikula) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Details of the awakening of the Elves Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 16:55:41 GMT Organization: Clinet Internet Services Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3a4f64f9.25301413@nntp.clinet.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: jaba.pp.clinet.fi X-Trace: news.clinet.fi 978281678 3967 194.100.36.136 (31 Dec 2000 16:54:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@clinet.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 Dec 2000 16:54:38 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.tele.dk!194.255.56.67!newsfeed101.telia.com!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30781 I just finished reading the legend of the Awakening of the Quendi found in the War of the Jewels. At first it seemed reasonable for me to assume that the clan leaders Imin, Tata and Enel were later named Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe, but then I noticed that Enel couldn't have been Elwe as Elwe didn't have a spouse (How is this possible anyway? Or did he leave his previous spouse in favor of Melian?) but a brother. This led me to an interesting question: The two other clan leaders went to Valinor as ambassadors, so why did Enel let Elwe go instead of going himself? It's interesting to note that the original leader of the third clan became an Avar, although most of his clan became Eldar (I don't think that he'd give away his leadership to Elwe or Olwe or Lenwe). This all is ofcourse assuming that the Elven "children's story" of their awakening is accurate. Did Tolkien write more about the details of the awakening? -- Miika ###### From: tar_elenion@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Details of the awakening of the Elves Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 18:42:53 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 34 Message-ID: <92nunc$gvv$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <3a4f64f9.25301413@nntp.clinet.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.197 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Dec 31 18:42:53 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 ptlum1.sfba.home.com[1809EFD3] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x59.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.197 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30780 In article <3a4f64f9.25301413@nntp.clinet.fi>, m_nikula@hotmail.com (Miika Nikula) wrote: > I just finished reading the legend of the Awakening of the Quendi > found in the War of the Jewels. > > At first it seemed reasonable for me to assume that the clan leaders > Imin, Tata and Enel were later named Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe, but then I > noticed that Enel couldn't have been Elwe as Elwe didn't have a spouse > (How is this possible anyway? Or did he leave his previous spouse in > favor of Melian?) but a brother. This led me to an interesting > question: The two other clan leaders went to Valinor as ambassadors, > so why did Enel let Elwe go instead of going himself? > Ingwe and Finwe went to Aman as ambassadors. Imin and Tata did not. Ingwe is not Imin. Finwe is not Tata. > It's interesting to note that the original leader of the third clan > became an Avar, although most of his clan became Eldar (I don't think > that he'd give away his leadership to Elwe or Olwe or Lenwe). This all > is ofcourse assuming that the Elven "children's story" of their > awakening is accurate. > We do not know what happened to the original 'clan leaders'. They could be the forefathers of Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe. They could have all been slain or captured by the Enemy. They could have all remained as Avari or could have gone on the Great Journey. Tar-Elenion Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: Meneldil Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Details of the awakening of the Elves Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 13:15:47 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 49 Message-ID: <92pvu2$t4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <3a4f64f9.25301413@nntp.clinet.fi> <92nunc$gvv$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.82.103.37 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Jan 01 13:15:47 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT; University of East Anglia) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 wwwcache1.uea.ac.uk:8080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE4), 1.0 tomato.ulcc.wwwcache.ja.net:8080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE5-hno.20000103), 1.0 x67.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 139.222.126.107, 139.222.128.2, 194.82.103.37 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDmeneldil Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30807 In article <92nunc$gvv$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, tar_elenion@my-deja.com wrote: > Ingwe and Finwe went to Aman as ambassadors. Imin and Tata did not. > Ingwe is not Imin. Finwe is not Tata. An interesting interpretation. Do you have a source for that? Ingwe and Finwe could be later names for Imin and Tata. The Sil. is indeterminate "Therefore Orome was sent again to them, and he chose from among them ambassadors who should go to Valinor and speak for their people; and these were Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe, who afterwards were kings". The word "afterwards" _could_ be read to mean that they were not kings as yet then. But would Orome have chosen ambassadors who _weren't_ the chiefs of the Elves? The chiefs would probably have interpreted that as a slight to them, wouldn't they? > > It's interesting to note that the original leader of the third clan > > became an Avar, although most of his clan became Eldar (I don't > > think > > that he'd give away his leadership to Elwe or Olwe or Lenwe). This > > all > > is ofcourse assuming that the Elven "children's story" of their > > awakening is accurate. > > > > We do not know what happened to the original 'clan leaders'. They > could > be the forefathers of Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe. Not a "forefather" of Elwe, I'd say - Thingol appears to have been one of those who originally awoke: cf. his words to the dwarves in Sil. Ch. 22 : 'How do ye of uncouth race dare to demand aught of me, Elu Thingol, Lord of Beleriand, whose life began by the waters of Cuivinnen years uncounted ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke?' Of course, this could also be interpreted to mean that he was born to an Elven mother by the waters, but that seems a bit strained IMHO - he seems to be saying he "awoke" there. Again, the Q arises re whether the tale of the awakening of the Elves is canonical re the Sil. Cheers, Meneldil Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: tar_elenion@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Details of the awakening of the Elves Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2001 18:51:25 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 94 Message-ID: <92qjjc$an9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <3a4f64f9.25301413@nntp.clinet.fi> <92nunc$gvv$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92pvu2$t4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.197 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Jan 01 18:51:25 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 ptlum1.sfba.home.com[1809EFD3] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.197 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30828 In article <92pvu2$t4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Meneldil wrote: > In article <92nunc$gvv$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > tar_elenion@my-deja.com wrote: > > > Ingwe and Finwe went to Aman as ambassadors. Imin and Tata did not. > > Ingwe is not Imin. Finwe is not Tata. > > An interesting interpretation. Do you have a source for that? Ingwe > and Finwe could be later names for Imin and Tata. The Sil. is > indeterminate "Therefore Orome was sent again to them, and he chose > from among them ambassadors who should go to Valinor and speak for > their people; and these were Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe, who afterwards were > kings". The word "afterwards" _could_ be read to mean that they were > not kings as yet then. But would Orome have chosen ambassadors who > _weren't_ the chiefs of the Elves? The chiefs would probably have > interpreted that as a slight to them, wouldn't they? > The 'Awakening' story has 144 Quendi as 'Unbegotten' (those who 'Awoke', and were not 'Born'). Now these 144 were 72 pairs. Each Quendi awoke next to his or her 'destined spouse' (see WotJ, 'Of Quendi and Eldar'). Elwe had to wife Melian, who he met later in Beleriand. Melian was a Maia did not Awake at Cuivienen. Hence Elwe did not Awake at Cuivienen. Elwe is attested to as having (at least) 2 siblings (Olwe and Elmo). Elwe, Olwe and Elmo being brothers need parents. Hence Elwe was born. Miriel Serinde was the wife of Finwe. Serinde is attested to as a 'mother-name' (see PoME, 'Shibboleth of Feanor'). A 'mother-name' is given to an Elda by their mother (op. cit.). Thus by definition Miriel Serinde had a mother. Thus she did not Awaken at Cuivienen beside her 'destined spouse'. Thus Finwe did not Awaken at Cuivienen. Ingwe had a sister (Indis or Indis' mother depending on version. Thus they had parents. Thus Ingwe did not 'Awake' but was born. > > > It's interesting to note that the original leader of the third clan > > > became an Avar, although most of his clan became Eldar (I don't > > > think > > > that he'd give away his leadership to Elwe or Olwe or Lenwe). This > > > all > > > is ofcourse assuming that the Elven "children's story" of their > > > awakening is accurate. > > > > > > > We do not know what happened to the original 'clan leaders'. They > > could > > be the forefathers of Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe. > > Not a "forefather" of Elwe, I'd say - Thingol appears to have been one > of those who originally awoke: cf. his words to the dwarves in Sil. Ch. > 22 : 'How do ye of uncouth race dare to demand aught of me, Elu > Thingol, Lord of Beleriand, whose life began by the waters of Cuivinnen > years uncounted ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke?' > > Of course, this could also be interpreted to mean that he was born to > an Elven mother by the waters, but that seems a bit strained IMHO - he > seems to be saying he "awoke" there. > He does not say he 'awoke'. He says his 'life began'. As proven above, Elwe can not have Awoken, thus 'life began' must mean 'born'. > Again, the Q arises re whether the tale of the awakening of the Elves > is canonical re the Sil. > Considering that the 'Ruin of Doriath' chapter was in many parts written by CT and Guy Kay and CT himself says that the account in the published Sil. "...is fudamentally changed, to a form for which in certain essential features there is no authority whatever in my father's own writings." JRRT never got around to rewriting this portion of the tale and CT had to draw on very old accounts (such as Lost Tales) and some very brief later notes. On the other hand the 'Awakening' story is completely JRRT. It is however put in the form of a 'childs tale' or Elvish 'fairytale'. Tar-Elenion > Cheers, > > Meneldil > > Sent via Deja.com > http://www.deja.com/ > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: meneldil@my-deja.com (Meneldil) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Details of the awakening of the Elves Date: 1 Jan 2001 23:54:52 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia, Norwich, Norfolk, NR47TJ, UK Lines: 29 Message-ID: <92r5cc$ghb$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> References: <3a4f64f9.25301413@nntp.clinet.fi> <92nunc$gvv$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92pvu2$t4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92qjjc$an9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lib_0200_6107.cpc.uea.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: cpca14.uea.ac.uk 978393292 16939 139.222.126.107 (1 Jan 2001 23:54:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uea.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jan 2001 23:54:52 GMT X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!fu-berlin.de!server1.netnews.ja.net!news.uea.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30844 In article <92qjjc$an9$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, tar_elenion@my-deja.com says... >Hence Elwe did not Awake >Thus Finwe did not Awaken at Cuivienen. >Thus Ingwe did not 'Awake' but was born. Thank you - that is very helpful. I'd missed the bit about being born beside one's partner entirely in my reading. It's passing strange that Orome chose rank and file, and not the chiefs, as his ambassadors. > >Considering that the 'Ruin of Doriath' chapter was in many parts >written by CT and Guy Kay and CT himself says that the account in the >published Sil. "...is fudamentally changed, to a form for which in >certain essential features there is no authority whatever in my >father's own writings." JRRT never got around to rewriting this portion >of the tale and CT had to draw on very old accounts (such as Lost >Tales) and some very brief later notes. On the other hand >the 'Awakening' story is completely JRRT. It is however put in the form >of a 'childs tale' or Elvish 'fairytale'. > True - the point I was trying to ask was to what extent can we use JRRT's later works in interpreting the Sil.? Cheers, Meneldil ###### From: tar_elenion@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Details of the awakening of the Elves Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 02:29:23 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 60 Message-ID: <92redt$uvo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <3a4f64f9.25301413@nntp.clinet.fi> <92nunc$gvv$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92pvu2$t4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92qjjc$an9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92r5cc$ghb$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.197 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Jan 02 02:29:23 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 ptlum1.sfba.home.com[1809EFD3] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.197 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30845 In article <92r5cc$ghb$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk>, meneldil@my-deja.com (Meneldil) wrote: > In article <92qjjc$an9$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, tar_elenion@my-deja.com says... > > >Hence Elwe did not Awake > >Thus Finwe did not Awaken at Cuivienen. > >Thus Ingwe did not 'Awake' but was born. > > Thank you - that is very helpful. I'd missed the bit about being born beside > one's partner entirely in my reading. It's passing strange that Orome chose > rank and file, and not the chiefs, as his ambassadors. > Well perhaps they were they were less afraid than the others. It is possible that they were not simply 'rank and file'. Perhaps they were scions of the 'original' chieftains. But thats all guesswork. > > > >Considering that the 'Ruin of Doriath' chapter was in many parts > >written by CT and Guy Kay and CT himself says that the account in the > >published Sil. "...is fudamentally changed, to a form for which in > >certain essential features there is no authority whatever in my > >father's own writings." JRRT never got around to rewriting this portion > >of the tale and CT had to draw on very old accounts (such as Lost > >Tales) and some very brief later notes. On the other hand > >the 'Awakening' story is completely JRRT. It is however put in the form > >of a 'childs tale' or Elvish 'fairytale'. > > > > True - the point I was trying to ask was to what extent can we use JRRT's > later works in interpreting the Sil.? > I guess that depends on how you veiw the published Sil. If you veiw it as completely JRRT's own work then you might find it difficult. If you consider it an (CT's) 'interprtation' of JRRT's (often unfinished) writings then it becomes necessary to use his (later) original writings to interpret it. But in any event the published Sil. does not state that Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe are Unbegotten, nor does it really even suggest that (IMO), re. your earlier cite, that Orome went among the Quendi and chose 3 who _after_ became kings. Tar-Elenion > Cheers, > > Meneldil > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Details of the awakening of the Elves Date: 02 Jan 2001 15:53:48 +0100 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 25 Message-ID: <6uu27i80oz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3a4f64f9.25301413@nntp.clinet.fi> <92nunc$gvv$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92pvu2$t4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92qjjc$an9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92r5cc$ghb$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 978447235 1365 10.0.3.2 (2 Jan 2001 14:53:55 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jan 2001 14:53:55 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30854 meneldil@my-deja.com (Meneldil) writes: > In article <92qjjc$an9$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, tar_elenion@my-deja.com says... > > >Hence Elwe did not Awake > >Thus Finwe did not Awaken at Cuivienen. > >Thus Ingwe did not 'Awake' but was born. > > Thank you - that is very helpful. I'd missed the bit about being born beside > one's partner entirely in my reading. It's passing strange that Orome chose > rank and file, and not the chiefs, as his ambassadors. Not at all strange. Kings have obligations towards their people. They can't simply go off for unknown time on some possible dangerous quest. In LotR alone at the council of Elrond we have: - Legolas, not Thranduil - Gloin and Gimli, not Dain - Boromir, not Denethor -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Hacker, Unix Guru, El Eng FH/BSc, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: jaaguke@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Details of the awakening of the Elves Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 17:26:05 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 35 Message-ID: <92t2v4$6d4$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <3a4f64f9.25301413@nntp.clinet.fi> <92nunc$gvv$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92pvu2$t4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92qjjc$an9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92r5cc$ghb$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> <6uu27i80oz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.40.133.134 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Jan 02 17:26:05 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.75 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.17 i686) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 cache.eenet.ee:3128 (Squid/2.3.STABLE4-hno), 1.0 x54.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 193.40.253.97, 193.40.133.134 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDjaaguke Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30856 In article <6uu27i80oz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: > meneldil@my-deja.com (Meneldil) writes: > > > In article <92qjjc$an9$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, tar_elenion@my-deja.com > > says... > > > > >Hence Elwe did not Awake > > >Thus Finwe did not Awaken at Cuivienen. > > >Thus Ingwe did not 'Awake' but was born. > > > > Thank you - that is very helpful. I'd missed the bit about being > > born beside one's partner entirely in my reading. It's passing > > strange that Orome chose rank and file, and not the chiefs, as his > > ambassadors. > > Not at all strange. Kings have obligations towards their people. They > can't simply go off for unknown time on some possible dangerous quest. > > In LotR alone at the council of Elrond we have: > > - Legolas, not Thranduil > - Gloin and Gimli, not Dain > - Boromir, not Denethor > Which makes me wonder how the original chiefs of the Quendi were disposed of. Another possibility might be that before the migrations the Elves didn't need chiefs as their barbarous lifestyle didn't require them. The Green-elves are a specific example of later Elves doing without chiefs. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: m_nikula@hotmail.com (Miika Nikula) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Details of the awakening of the Elves Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 18:44:39 GMT Organization: Clinet Internet Services Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3a522143.22724832@nntp.clinet.fi> References: <3a4f64f9.25301413@nntp.clinet.fi> <92nunc$gvv$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92pvu2$t4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92qjjc$an9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jaba.pp.clinet.fi X-Trace: news.clinet.fi 978461016 29215 194.100.36.136 (2 Jan 2001 18:43:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@clinet.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jan 2001 18:43:36 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!194.255.56.67!newsfeed101.telia.com!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30859 [snip] > >The 'Awakening' story has 144 Quendi as 'Unbegotten' (those >who 'Awoke', and were not 'Born'). Now these 144 were 72 pairs. Each >Quendi awoke next to his or her 'destined spouse' (see WotJ, 'Of Quendi >and Eldar'). Elwe had to wife Melian, who he met later in Beleriand. >Melian was a Maia did not Awake at Cuivienen. Hence Elwe did not Awake >at Cuivienen. Elwe is attested to as having (at least) 2 siblings (Olwe >and Elmo). Elwe, Olwe and Elmo being brothers need parents. Hence Elwe >was born. Miriel Serinde was the wife of Finwe. Serinde is attested to >as a 'mother-name' (see PoME, 'Shibboleth of Feanor'). A 'mother-name' >is given to an Elda by their mother (op. cit.). Thus by definition >Miriel Serinde had a mother. Thus she did not Awaken at Cuivienen >beside her 'destined spouse'. Thus Finwe did not Awaken at Cuivienen. >Ingwe had a sister (Indis or Indis' mother depending on version. Thus >they had parents. Thus Ingwe did not 'Awake' but was born. > Very convincing... I was perhaps too hasty to assume things. Thanks For clearing it out to me. -- Miika ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3a4f64f9.25301413@nntp.clinet.fi> <92nunc$gvv$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92pvu2$t4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92qjjc$an9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92r5cc$ghb$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Details of the awakening of the Elves Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <0Ds46.246$fj6.22306@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 22:29:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.122 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 978474556 12.79.22.122 (Tue, 02 Jan 2001 22:29:16 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 22:29:16 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30877 "Meneldil" wrote in message news:92r5cc$ghb$1@cpca14.uea.ac.uk... > Thank you - that is very helpful. I'd missed the bit about being > born beside one's partner entirely in my reading. It's passing > strange that Orome chose rank and file, and not the chiefs, as > his ambassadors. Unless of course the original leaders were dead (nasty Morgoth creatures creeping about) OR the two origin myths were unconnected. There is after all no indication in the 'Elwe/Finwe/Ingwe' origin story that there had ever been the other three original chiefs or the whole 144 thing. Given that there isn't a single individual named in common between the two stories I tend to suspect that they were two different ideas about the earliest days of the Elves. ###### From: "Jonathan White" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Details of the awakening of the Elves Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 20:53:07 -0000 Message-ID: <978727753.17711.0.nnrp-14.c2de803c@news.demon.co.uk> References: <3a4f64f9.25301413@nntp.clinet.fi> <92nunc$gvv$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92pvu2$t4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92qjjc$an9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3a522143.22724832@nntp.clinet.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: rebeccaj.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: rebeccaj.demon.co.uk:194.222.128.60 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 978727753 nnrp-14:17711 NO-IDENT rebeccaj.demon.co.uk:194.222.128.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Lines: 31 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!212.74.64.35!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!rebeccaj.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30957 "Miika Nikula" wrote in message news:3a522143.22724832@nntp.clinet.fi... > [snip] > > > >The 'Awakening' story has 144 Quendi as 'Unbegotten' (those > >who 'Awoke', and were not 'Born'). Now these 144 were 72 pairs. Each > >Quendi awoke next to his or her 'destined spouse' (see WotJ, 'Of Quendi > >and Eldar'). Elwe had to wife Melian, who he met later in Beleriand. > >Melian was a Maia did not Awake at Cuivienen. Hence Elwe did not Awake > >at Cuivienen. Elwe is attested to as having (at least) 2 siblings (Olwe > >and Elmo). Elwe, Olwe and Elmo being brothers need parents. Hence Elwe > >was born. Miriel Serinde was the wife of Finwe. Serinde is attested to > >as a 'mother-name' (see PoME, 'Shibboleth of Feanor'). A 'mother-name' > >is given to an Elda by their mother (op. cit.). Thus by definition > >Miriel Serinde had a mother. Thus she did not Awaken at Cuivienen > >beside her 'destined spouse'. Thus Finwe did not Awaken at Cuivienen. > >Ingwe had a sister (Indis or Indis' mother depending on version. Thus > >they had parents. Thus Ingwe did not 'Awake' but was born. > > > > Very convincing... I was perhaps too hasty to assume things. Thanks > For clearing it out to me. Very convincing, *assuming* that the two stories are connected. If the "144 Unbegotten" tale is an abandoned text, then who awoke next to who is totally irrelevant as to the question of whether or not Elwe was born or awoke. Jon