From: Jonathan White Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Telepathic Communication... a possible inconsistency Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 13:23:36 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 45 Message-ID: <92knkk$8ab$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.7.235.206 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Dec 30 13:23:36 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98; Win 9x 4.90) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x52.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 195.7.235.206 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDwhitejj999 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!Quza.UK.peer!nntp.gblx.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30751 First of all, a very happy New Year to you all... Anyway, back to the important Tolkien stuff. I'm doing my regular re- read of LotR, and something has struck me for the first time. I don't remember seeing it referred to here before, so here goes.... I think its pretty much agreed, at least by most of the regulars here, that some form of Telepathic communication exists between "the Wise". However, if this is the case, I wonder why Saruman needs to send Radagast to Gandalf in order to "summon" him to Orthanc - surely he could just have got in touch telepathically and asked him to drop in. I thought about it for a while and came up with several possible explanations - I was wondering if anyone had any insights as to which is more likely, or any other ideas if you think mine are all wrong. i) Tolkien made an mistake - he forgot (or perhaps hadn't yet come to the conclusion) that Telepathic communication existed, so wrote in the Radagast scene, then forgot to revise it out later. This is most unsatisfactory in that it is a story external explanation, but somehow seems the most likely to me. ii) Telepathic communication was only possible between the Ring- wearers - ie Elrond, Gandalf and Galadriel. This seems quite reasonable (and seems to fit with the examples in LotR), is reasonably satisfying as a story internal reason, but I have no idea how this ties in with evidence from HoME etc. where Telepathy is discussed in greater depth. iii) Telepathy made it difficult to conceal his real intentions, thus Saruman was unable to use it to talk to Gandalf for fear of revealing what he really wanted. The problem with this is that, if it were so Gandalf really should have realised that Saruman was up to no good, and, JRRT should have at least tried to write an explanation for the lack of Telepathy into the Radagast scene... As I said, I'd welcome comments, criticisms of these ideas, and any alternate theories which might help to explain what appears to be an oversight on the part of the great Professor! Jon Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: d_ketchum Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Telepathic Communication... a possible inconsistency Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 13:43:14 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 48 Message-ID: <92koq6$bbo$1@nnrp2.deja.com> References: <92knkk$8ab$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ix61.deja.com X-Trace: nnrp2.deja.com 978183814 11640 10.12.1.231 (30 Dec 2000 13:43:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@deja.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Dec 2000 13:43:34 GMT X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Dec 30 13:43:14 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x53.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 150.216.16.155 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDd_ketchum Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.imp.ch!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp2.deja.com!nnrp2.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30752 In article <92knkk$8ab$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Jonathan White wrote: > First of all, a very happy New Year to you all... > > Anyway, back to the important Tolkien stuff. I'm doing my regular re- > read of LotR, and something has struck me for the first time. I don't > remember seeing it referred to here before, so here goes.... > > I think its pretty much agreed, at least by most of the regulars here, > that some form of Telepathic communication exists between "the Wise". > However, if this is the case, I wonder why Saruman needs to send > Radagast to Gandalf in order to "summon" him to Orthanc - surely he > could just have got in touch telepathically and asked him to drop in. > > I thought about it for a while and came up with several possible > explanations - I was wondering if anyone had any insights as to which > is more likely, or any other ideas if you think mine are all wrong. > > i) Tolkien made an mistake - he forgot (or perhaps hadn't yet come to > the conclusion) that Telepathic communication existed, so wrote in the > Radagast scene, then forgot to revise it out later. This is most > unsatisfactory in that it is a story external explanation, but somehow > seems the most likely to me. > > ii) Telepathic communication was only possible between the Ring- > wearers - ie Elrond, Gandalf and Galadriel. This seems quite reasonable > (and seems to fit with the examples in LotR), is reasonably satisfying > as a story internal reason, but I have no idea how this ties in with > evidence from HoME etc. where Telepathy is discussed in greater depth. > > iii) Telepathy made it difficult to conceal his real intentions, thus > Saruman was unable to use it to talk to Gandalf for fear of revealing > what he really wanted. The problem with this is that, if it were so > Gandalf really should have realised that Saruman was up to no good, > and, JRRT should have at least tried to write an explanation for the > lack of Telepathy into the Radagast scene... > > I'll take door number iii, Monty. And we already know that Gandalf thought Saraman hid his thoughts because of his pride. Gandalf only found out later there was more to it than that. And clearly, it isn't just ring bearers, since Celeborn has no ring. And neither do Denethor or Farimir, though they also demonstrate mind-reading abilites. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <92knkk$8ab$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Telepathic Communication... a possible inconsistency Lines: 37 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 14:02:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.71.235 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 978184946 12.78.71.235 (Sat, 30 Dec 2000 14:02:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 14:02:26 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30757 "Jonathan White" wrote in message news:92knkk$8ab$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > However, if this is the case, I wonder why Saruman needs to send > Radagast to Gandalf in order to "summon" him to Orthanc - surely > he could just have got in touch telepathically and asked him to > drop in. In addition to the ideas you suggested I might add; Telepathy could only be performed over short distances without considerable power or 'props' such as Rings or Palantiri. To communicate with someone telepathically you have to know WHERE they are. Hence on the journey home the Elves could sit around having a nice mental chat face to face... but Sauron could only attempt to reach Frodo AFTER he became aware of his presence in the region near Amon Hen. I don't think we know enough to be certain, but the above seem likely to me. I know there is some indication that distance was NOT a factor in terms of ability to communicate... but perhaps it was a factor in ability to locate your target. Hence Elrond and Galadriel would usually be easy to contact... they stayed in Rivendell and Caras Galadon. Gandalf moved around and thus would be difficult to reach. Of course, this might still be problematic since Saruman was certainly fairly stationary in and around Orthanc, and Gandalf could have contacted him telepathically there. So... another possible problem; eavesdroppers. A 'mental shout' hundreds of miles away might be apparent to other aware entities; either allowing the communicators to be located/identified or even allowing the message to be overheard. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Telepathic Communication... a possible inconsistency Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 12:22:01 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 94 Message-ID: References: <92knkk$8ab$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.9b X-Server-Date: 30 Dec 2000 17:22:57 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30774 Jonathan White wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >I think its pretty much agreed, at least by most of the regulars here, >that some form of Telepathic communication exists between "the Wise". You may be interested to read the last half of number 29 of /Vinyar Tengwar/. The essay is "Enquiry into the Communication of Thought", previously unpublished work of JRRT. Back issues of /Vinyar Tengwar/ can be ordered from . >However, if this is the case, I wonder why Saruman needs to send >Radagast to Gandalf in order to "summon" him to Orthanc - surely he >could just have got in touch telepathically and asked him to drop in. An interesting point. While we have talked about Tolkienian telepathy from time to time, I don't recall this specific issue being raised. >I thought about it for a while and came up with several possible >explanations - I was wondering if anyone had any insights as to which >is more likely, or any other ideas if you think mine are all wrong. >i) Tolkien made an mistake - he forgot (or perhaps hadn't yet come to >the conclusion) that Telepathic communication existed, so wrote in the >Radagast scene, then forgot to revise it out later. This is most >unsatisfactory in that it is a story external explanation, but somehow >seems the most likely to me. I agree, it's always more satisfying to find a story internal explanation if possible. >ii) Telepathic communication was only possible between the Ring- >wearers - ie Elrond, Gandalf and Galadriel. This seems quite reasonable >(and seems to fit with the examples in LotR), is reasonably satisfying >as a story internal reason, but I have no idea how this ties in with >evidence from HoME etc. where Telepathy is discussed in greater depth. I'm afraid this won't work, based on evidence outside LotR. In the "Enquiry" cited above, Tolkien says explicitly that every mind is capable of telepathy, but the more tied to the use of the body, the less capable the mind is at telepathy. We might try to make a case that Saruman had lost his telepathic abilities through being bound to his body and falling into evil. But JRRT tells us in "Enquiry" that Morgoth had not lost this ability, so I don't see how we can think Saruman did. There's also an objection _inside_ LotR. Look back at the chapter "Many Partings": the "mind to mind" talk involved Celeborn also, not just the bearers of the Three. >iii) Telepathy made it difficult to conceal his real intentions, thus >Saruman was unable to use it to talk to Gandalf for fear of revealing >what he really wanted. This I think is the most likely explanation. But there's a second explanation, somewhat related. Gandalf had already begun to have suspicions of Saruman, and therefore Gandalf would have been keeping his own mind closed against Saruman, since G knew where the One Ring was and would not want S to know that. Tolkien says in "Enquiry" that any mind can absolutely shut itself against outside telepathic communication. >The problem with this is that, if it were so >Gandalf really should have realised that Saruman was up to no good, I think he did. He didn't _know_ Saruman was a traitor until the outbreak of the War of the Ring 3018, when he was imprisoned in Orthanc; but he had not fully trusted S for some time before that. >and, JRRT should have at least tried to write an explanation for the >lack of Telepathy into the Radagast scene... This is an artistic judgment, I think. Remember that it is not until late in RotK that the reader sees clearly identified telepathy for the first time, in that "Many Partings" chapter. If JRRT had tried to explain the ins and outs of telepathy in "The Council of Elrond", all the way back in Book II, it would have made a very long and "talky" chapter even more so. One might argue that this should have been described in an appendix to LotR. I personally wish it could have been in UT, along "The Palantíri" and "The Istari". -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Telepathic Communication... a possible inconsistency Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 12:25:53 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <92knkk$8ab$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.9b X-Server-Date: 30 Dec 2000 17:26:56 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30772 Conrad Dunkerson wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Telepathy could only be performed over short distances without >considerable power or 'props' such as Rings or Palantiri. "Distance in itself offers no impediment whatever to ósanwe." --bottom of page 24 of /Vinyar Tengwar/ number 39, in "Enquiry into the Communication of Thought" by JRRT. It's a fascinating essay, well worth the $2 price of the issue. Order at . -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <92knkk$8ab$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Telepathic Communication... a possible inconsistency Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 19:02:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.25.6 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 978289323 12.79.25.6 (Sun, 31 Dec 2000 19:02:03 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 19:02:03 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!204.127.161.3!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30783 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.14b7e4af4f8152c898bc39@news.mindspring.com... > Conrad Dunkerson wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>Telepathy could only be performed over short distances without >>considerable power or 'props' such as Rings or Palantiri. > "Distance in itself offers no impediment whatever to ósanwe." > --bottom of page 24 of /Vinyar Tengwar/ number 39, in "Enquiry > into the Communication of Thought" by JRRT. Yes, I know. I noted the existence of that issue later in my post. However, that 'in itself' leaves open that distance CAN be an impediment... just not directly so. My suggestion was that if the target were far away they might be more difficult to 'locate' to begin communication. Once you know where they are distance is no problem, but if you don't know where they are you can't talk to them and it is difficult to locate them over great distances. ###### From: "Jonathan White" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Telepathic Communication... a possible inconsistency Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 20:52:59 -0000 Message-ID: <978468550.21448.0.nnrp-07.c2de803c@news.demon.co.uk> References: <92knkk$8ab$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92mtfm$7go9b$1@ID-23037.news.dfncis.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: rebeccaj.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: rebeccaj.demon.co.uk:194.222.128.60 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 978468550 nnrp-07:21448 NO-IDENT rebeccaj.demon.co.uk:194.222.128.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Lines: 20 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!grolier!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!rebeccaj.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30899 "Andrew Wells" wrote in message news:92mtfm$7go9b$1@ID-23037.news.dfncis.de... (snip) > Thanks for posting this info, Stan. > > Andrew > -- > Andrew Wells I usually don't do "me too" postings, but, as I started this thread I too would like to thank Stan in particular for his contribution - I'm very pleased to see some decent story internal explanations which don't lead to an inconsistency... Jon ###### From: "Jim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <92knkk$8ab$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Telepathic Communication... a possible inconsistency Lines: 119 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 17:19:59 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.104.144.123 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 978542027 213.104.144.123 (Wed, 03 Jan 2001 17:13:47 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 17:13:47 GMT Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!grolier!btnet-peer0!btnet!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30902 Conrad Dunkerson wrote in message news:LoL36.13363$bU.899018@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > "Stan Brown" wrote in message > news:MPG.14b7e4af4f8152c898bc39@news.mindspring.com... > > > Conrad Dunkerson wrote in > > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >>Telepathy could only be performed over short distances without > >>considerable power or 'props' such as Rings or Palantiri. > > > "Distance in itself offers no impediment whatever to ósanwe." > > --bottom of page 24 of /Vinyar Tengwar/ number 39, in "Enquiry > > into the Communication of Thought" by JRRT. > > Yes, I know. I noted the existence of that issue later in my post. > However, that 'in itself' leaves open that distance CAN be an > impediment... just not directly so. My suggestion was that if the > target were far away they might be more difficult to 'locate' to > begin communication. Once you know where they are distance is no > problem, but if you don't know where they are you can't talk to > them and it is difficult to locate them over great distances. > I agree with this, but would like to add another idea for a possible nessecity : eye contact. Galadriel read the minds of the company whilst looking them in the eye....even the very unmagical hobbits were recieving thoughts and were aware that thiers were being read, although I have to note that only Aragorn and Legolas could return her gaze for long. Frodo could see the dark tower from Amon Hen (although the perimiter mountains of Mordor would have blocked this I would have thought) indicating line of sight, and Gandalf was also 'in a high place' during the struggle. I think the 'Mental shout' would be, I think, more like a 'Mental laser beam' i.e. directed and not emanating circularly, so that it would only be intercepted if the eavesdropper was lucky enough to be looked at. Hmmm, anyway some relevant quotes: "And with that word she held them with her eyes, and in silence looked searchingly at each of them in turn. None save Legolas and Aragorn could long endure her glance. Sam quickly blushed and hung his head. ....... `I never thought no such thing,' answered Sam, in no mood for jest. 'If you want to know, I felt as if I hadn't got nothing on, and I didn't like it. She seemed to be looking inside me and asking me what I would do if she gave me the chance of flying back home to the Shire to a nice little hole with-with a bit of garden of my own.' `That's funny,' said Merry. 'Almost exactly what I felt myself; only, only well, I don't think I'll say any more,' he ended lamely. All of them, it seemed, had fared alike: each had felt that he was offered a choice between a shadow full of fear that lay ahead, and something that he greatly desired: clear before his mind it lay, and to get it he had only to turn aside from the road and leave the Quest and the war against Sauron to others." The Mirror of Galadriel "Thither, eastward, unwilling his eye was drawn. It passed the ruined bridges of Osgiliath, the grinning gates of Minas Morgul. and the haunted Mountains, and it looked upon Gorgoroth, the valley of terror in the Land of Mordor. Darkness lay there under the Sun. Fire glowed amid the smoke. Mount Doom was burning, and a great reek rising. Then at last his gaze was held: wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant, he saw it: Barad-dûr, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left him. And suddenly he felt the Eye. There was an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was. Amon Lhaw it touched. It glanced upon Tol Brandir he threw himself from the seat, crouching, covering his head with his grey hood. He heard himself crying out: Never, never! Or was it: Verily I come, I come to you? He could not tell. Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring! The two powers strove in him. For a moment, perfectly balanced between their piercing points, he writhed, tormented. Suddenly he was aware of himself again. Frodo, neither the Voice nor the Eye: free to choose, and with one remaining instant in which to do so. He took the Ring off his finger. He was kneeling in clear sunlight before the high seat. A black shadow seemed to pass like an arm above him; it missed Amon Hen and groped out west, and faded. Then all the sky was clean and blue and birds sang in every tree." The Breaking of the Fellowship "'Yes,' said Gandalf, 'that was Gwaihir the Windlord, who rescued me from Orthanc. I sent him before me to watch the River and gather tidings. His sight is keen, but he cannot see all that passes under hill and tree. Some things he has seen, and others I have seen myself. The Ring now has passed beyond my help, or the help of any of the Company that set out from Rivendell. Very nearly it was revealed to the Enemy, but it escaped. I had some part in that: for I sat in a high place, and I strove with the Dark Tower; and the Shadow passed. Then I was weary, very weary; and I walked long in dark thought.'" The White Rider "They had journeyed thus far by the west-ways, for they had much to speak of with Elrond and with Gandalf, and here they lingered still in converse with their friends. Often long after the hobbits were wrapped in sleep they would sit together under the stars, recalling the ages that were gone and all their joys and labours in the world, or holding council, concerning the days to come. If any wanderer had chanced to pass, little would he have seen or heard, and it would have seemed to him only that he saw grey figures, carved in stone, memorials of forgotten things now lost in unpeopled lands. For they did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro." Many Partings The above passages provides a lot to speculate on. ###### From: skylar@starfleet (Skylar Thompson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Telepathic Communication... a possible inconsistency Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 22:36:41 GMT Organization: Starfleet Lines: 96 Sender: skylar@utumno.attglobal.net Distribution: World Message-ID: References: <92knkk$8ab$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: skylar@attglobal.net (Skylar Thompson) X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.9d - NLS NNTP-Posting-Host: 32.100.182.90 X-Trace: 4 Jan 2001 11:37:35 GMT, 32.100.182.90 X-Complaints-To: abuse@prserv.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!merapi!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.us.ibm.net!ibm.net!news3.prserv.net!rhino_house.attglobal.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30954 In , "Jim" writes: > >Conrad Dunkerson wrote in message >news:LoL36.13363$bU.899018@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... >> "Stan Brown" wrote in message >> news:MPG.14b7e4af4f8152c898bc39@news.mindspring.com... >> >> > Conrad Dunkerson wrote in >> > rec.arts.books.tolkien: >> >>Telepathy could only be performed over short distances without >> >>considerable power or 'props' such as Rings or Palantiri. >> >> > "Distance in itself offers no impediment whatever to ósanwe." >> > --bottom of page 24 of /Vinyar Tengwar/ number 39, in "Enquiry >> > into the Communication of Thought" by JRRT. >> >> Yes, I know. I noted the existence of that issue later in my post. >> However, that 'in itself' leaves open that distance CAN be an >> impediment... just not directly so. My suggestion was that if the >> target were far away they might be more difficult to 'locate' to >> begin communication. Once you know where they are distance is no >> problem, but if you don't know where they are you can't talk to >> them and it is difficult to locate them over great distances. >> > >I agree with this, but would like to add another idea for a possible >nessecity : eye contact. [snipped various examples of telepathic communication via eye contact] There is also the example of Fëanor realising the plots of Melkor in Valinor: ------ Now Fëanor's heart was still bitter with humiliation before Mandos, and he looked at Melkor in silence, pondering if indeed he might yet trust him so far as to aid him in his flight. And Melkor, seeing that Fëanor waverd, and knowing that the Silmarils held his heart in thrall, said at the last: `Here is a strong place, and well guarded; but think not that the Silarmils will lie safe in any treasury within the realm of the Valar!' But his cunning overreached his aim; his words touched too deep, and awoke a fire more fierce than he designed; and Fëanor looked upon Melkor with eyes that burned through his fair semblance and pierced the cloaks of his mind, perceiving there his fierce lust for the Silmarils. (five paragraphs before the end of Chapter 8, Silmarillion) ------ There is also the dragon-gaze: ----- Then Túrin sprang about, and strode against him, and the edges of Gurthang shone as with flame; but Glaurung withheld his blast, and opened wide his serpent-eyes and gazed upon Túrin. Without fear Túrin looked into them as he raised his sword; and straightway he fell under the binding spell of the lidless eyes of the dragon, and was halted moveless. (Eighty paragraphs after the beginning of Chapter 21, Silmarillion) ------- And in _The Hobbit_: ------- Bilbo was now beginning to feel really uncomfort- able. Whenever Smaug's roving eye, seeking for him in the shadows, flashed across him, he trembled, and an unaccountable desire seized hold of him to rush out and reveal himself and tell all the truth to Smaug. In fact he was in grievous danger of coming under the dragon- spell. ... (First paragraph of the seventh paragraph break in Chapter 12, _The Hobbit_) ------- I would agree that this is conclusive evidence of the effect of the eyes in magical creatures, and even their ability to control others with that power. --Skylar Thompson (skylar@attglobal.net) `All that is gold does not glitter/Not all who wander are lost The old that is strong does not wither/Deep roots are not reached by the frost From the ashes a fire shall be woken/A light from the shadows shall spring Renewed shall be blade that was broken/The crownless again shall be king.' ###### From: Aelfwine Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Telepathic Communication... a possible inconsistency Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 22:43:18 GMT Organization: Deja.com Lines: 34 Message-ID: <9309u6$u0l$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <92knkk$8ab$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.9.51.64 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Jan 03 22:43:18 2001 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.76 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x56.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 65.9.51.64 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDaelfwine2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!opentransit.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30913 > "Distance in itself offers no impediment whatever to ósanwe." > --bottom of page 24 of /Vinyar Tengwar/ number 39, in "Enquiry > into the Communication of Thought" by JRRT. True, but as the essay makes plain, and as this statement implies, there were a number of factors that could, in themselves or in conjunction, serve as impediments to _ósanwe_. One of these was incarnation, either permanent or habitual. The Istari, though Maiar, were by the end of the Third Age habitually incarnate. Elves were by their nature permanently incarnate (until slain). These facts alone would, I think, make it reasonable to suppose that, under normal circumstances, _ósanwe_ over appreciable distances was difficult or impossible, even among the Istari and the other members of the White Council. However, note that the essay also allows that great urgency or need could be an aid to _ósanwe_. This may explain how Gandalf was able to communicate with Frodo on Amon Hen from great distance (if this was in fact an instance of _ósanwe_). -- |======================================================================| | Carl F. Hostetter Aelfwine@elvish.org http://www.elvish.org | | | | ho bios brachys, he de techne makre. | | Ars longa, vita brevis. | | The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne. | | "I wish life was not so short," he thought. "Languages take | | such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about." | |======================================================================| Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Telepathic Communication... a possible inconsistency Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 00:33:31 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 58 Message-ID: References: <92knkk$8ab$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <9309u6$u0l$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.8e X-Server-Date: 4 Jan 2001 05:33:05 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!merapi!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!europa.netcrusader.net!64.152.100.70!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30958 In the early days of the millennium, I see that Aelfwine wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >> "Distance in itself offers no impediment whatever to ósanwe." > > --bottom of page 24 of /Vinyar Tengwar/ number 39, in "Enquiry > > into the Communication of Thought" by JRRT. > >True, but as the essay makes plain, and as this statement implies, there >were a number of factors that could, in themselves or in conjunction, >serve as impediments to _ósanwe_. One of these was incarnation, either >permanent or habitual. The Istari, though Maiar, were by the end of the >Third Age habitually incarnate. Elves were by their nature permanently >incarnate (until slain). These facts alone would, I think, make it >reasonable to suppose that, under normal circumstances, _ósanwe_ over >appreciable distances was difficult or impossible, even among the Istari >and the other members of the White Council. I agree with the other factors you name. The essay does indeed make them plain. (I am not sure whether 2000 years is enough to make the Istari "habitually" incarnate. Remember that Sauron had little difficulty re-embodying at the end of the Second Age, after 3500 years or so incarnate and after losing his body at least twice. And none of the Maiar except Melian ever bred, which IIRC Tolkien says is the single factor that ties the fea to the body and interferes with ósanwe, more than any other.) As for the quoted passage, I respect your greater level of scholarship than mine(*), but I just don't read it the same way. If he says "distance in itself offers no impediment WHATEVER" (emphasis added), that says to me that all else being equal, communication will be just as easy (or hard) at a remove of 1000 miles as when the two are in adjoining rooms. You seem to be saying that when other factors of difficulty are present, then distance adds yet more difficulty. (*) Since you can't see my facial expression, let me say that I mean the statement sincerely, with no sarcasm. (For those who may not know, Carl is the editor of /Vinyar Tengwar/.) >However, note that the essay also allows that great urgency or need could >be an aid to _ósanwe_. This may explain how Gandalf was able to >communicate with Frodo on Amon Hen from great distance (if this was in >fact an instance of _ósanwe_). I've been thinking about this incident too. I wonder if, because he was consciously looking out over wide stretches of the world and trying to find guidance, he unconsciously made his mind unusually open and receptive? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Jim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <92knkk$8ab$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Telepathic Communication... a possible inconsistency Lines: 39 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: <8P256.38030$Yy.870016@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com> Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 18:02:38 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.104.137.52 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news2-win.server.ntlworld.com 978630980 213.104.137.52 (Thu, 04 Jan 2001 17:56:20 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 17:56:20 GMT Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!213.56.195.71!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!proxad.net!grolier!btnet-peer0!btnet!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news2-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30910 Stan Brown wrote in message news:MPG.14bd4ac6a13eee6898bc7a@news.mindspring.com... > In the early days of the millennium, I see that Jim > wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >> "Stan Brown" wrote in message > >> news:MPG.14b7e4af4f8152c898bc39@news.mindspring.com... > >> > "Distance in itself offers no impediment whatever to ósanwe." > >> > --bottom of page 24 of /Vinyar Tengwar/ number 39, in "Enquiry > >> > into the Communication of Thought" by JRRT. > > > >I agree with this, but would like to add another idea for a possible > >nessecity : eye contact. > > I've snipped out the intermediate bits. > > If you want to say eye contact is a necessity, then you have to > reject Tolkien's own statement that distance was no impediment. > True, the quoted writing of Tolkien's was not published during his > lifetime so one can argue that it's not canonical. But if do you > accept it, then I don't think "eye contact" can stand. Well I don't think the two ideas are mutually exclusive....if you take eye contact to mean 'line of sight' then distance doesn't cause a problem, its just more likely over a long distance there is an obstruction to that line of sight. The fact that Gandalf was in 'a high place', Frodo was on the seat of seeing on Amon Hen, and Sauron was in the top of Barad-Dur just seems significant to me. Frodo puts the ring on again soon after leaving the seat with seemingly no risk of detection (although this could be because he wasn't looking around rather than just not being in a high vantage spot). I don't like to dismiss things as uncanonical when that leads to having a less complete picture. What else apart from the essay is in Vinyar Tengwar? Jim D ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <92knkk$8ab$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8P256.38030$Yy.870016@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com> Subject: Re: Telepathic Communication... a possible inconsistency Lines: 56 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Message-ID: <_2N56.190746$hD4.49892942@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com> Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 22:33:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.62.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.mi.home.com 978820410 24.0.62.34 (Sat, 06 Jan 2001 14:33:30 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 14:33:30 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!merapi!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.mi.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30967 "Jim" wrote in message news:8P256.38030$Yy.870016@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com... > > Stan Brown wrote in message > news:MPG.14bd4ac6a13eee6898bc7a@news.mindspring.com... > > In the early days of the millennium, I see that Jim > > wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > > >> "Stan Brown" wrote in message > > >> news:MPG.14b7e4af4f8152c898bc39@news.mindspring.com... > > >> > "Distance in itself offers no impediment whatever to ósanwe." > > >> > --bottom of page 24 of /Vinyar Tengwar/ number 39, in "Enquiry > > >> > into the Communication of Thought" by JRRT. > > > > > >I agree with this, but would like to add another idea for a possible > > >nessecity : eye contact. > > > > I've snipped out the intermediate bits. > > > > If you want to say eye contact is a necessity, then you have to > > reject Tolkien's own statement that distance was no impediment. > > True, the quoted writing of Tolkien's was not published during his > > lifetime so one can argue that it's not canonical. But if do you > > accept it, then I don't think "eye contact" can stand. > > Well I don't think the two ideas are mutually exclusive....if you take eye > contact to mean 'line of sight' then distance doesn't cause a problem, its > just more likely over a long distance there is an obstruction to that > line of sight. The fact that Gandalf was in 'a high place', Frodo was on the > seat of seeing on Amon Hen, and Sauron was in the top of Barad-Dur just > seems significant to me. Frodo puts the ring on again soon after leaving the > seat with seemingly no risk of detection (although this could be because he > wasn't looking around rather than just not being in a high vantage spot). I > don't like to dismiss things as uncanonical when > that leads to having a less complete picture. What else apart from the > essay is in Vinyar Tengwar? It seems to me you are confusing two simular but distinct things. _ósanwe_ is the "communication of THOUGHT". Amon Hen on the other hand was the Hill of Sight which required by definition "line of sight", thus Frodo actually looked north, west, south, and east. Frodo did not "hear" Sauron during his vision of Barad-dur. However he did hear the thoughts of Gandalf (though he did not see him) warning him to take off the Ring because, it seems to me, Sauron was about to SEE Frodo if he didn't. Both Gandalf and Sauron were Maiar who could "see" things further off (in space or time) than Men (or hobbits) could unaided. Dave ###### From: "Andrew B. Reeves" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Telepathic Communication... a possible inconsistency Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 11:15:38 -0600 Organization: University of Texas at Austin Lines: 13 Message-ID: <3A5B473A.42FF5649@mail.utexas.edu> References: <92knkk$8ab$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <92koq6$bbo$1@nnrp2.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial-122-47.ots.utexas.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: geraldo.cc.utexas.edu 979060410 10001 128.83.221.95 (9 Jan 2001 17:13:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@cc.utexas.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Jan 2001 17:13:30 GMT To: d_ketchum X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30994 > And clearly, it isn't just ring bearers, since Celeborn has no ring. And > neither do Denethoror Farimir, though they also demonstrate mind-reading > abilites. > It's been a bit since my last re-read of LOTR, but as far as I know, most of the "telepathy" of Denethor and Faramir was that they were astute judges of character, rather than any "power" as such. (Palantir use excepted.) I think in many dealings, Denethor and Faramir were no more telepathic than my girlfriend when she can tell by my face and tone of voice what I'm thinking. Andrew