From: "Roberto Ullfig" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Oathbreakers? Lines: 10 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 22:56:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.69.121.229 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: ord-read.news.verio.net 978216979 206.69.121.229 (Sat, 30 Dec 2000 22:56:19 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 22:56:19 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!ord-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30771 Is there an accurate reference stating where The Oathbreakers are equated with the Men of Dunharrow. I've seen this stated in Days' inaccurate book and in the BBC radio production. I always pictured The Oathbreakers as being from south of the mountains. --- Roberto Ullfig - robo@suba.com http://www.suba.com/~robo ###### From: "O. Sharp" Subject: Re: Oathbreakers? Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Organization: "But They Buried My Wallet With Me," The King Answered User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.17 (i686)) Lines: 37 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 14:56:41 CST X-Trace: sv2-LCuQTkjXDcprAr+1M8NhSIc1YIEp5q/KI45WadpTGMjmy8SWOwUzxcYME2wTOv4Ji5etxKM3iBFiWnw!qQjMFWZtt+PoFas1avoPD8IOhsg= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 20:56:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!nntp.flash.net!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!news1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30815 Roberto Ullfig asks: : Is there an accurate reference stating where The Oathbreakers are equated : with the Men of Dunharrow. I've seen this stated in Days' inaccurate book : and in the BBC radio production. I always pictured The Oathbreakers as being : from south of the mountains. I'm finding it unexpectedly difficult to provide a clean, clear, unambiguous reference. But I would note that Appendix F, in the section "Of Men" (_RotK_ pp. 407-8 hardback) says that the Dead of Dunharrow were of the people of the White Mountains: [The Dunlendings] were a remnant of the peoples that had dwelt in the vales of the White Mountains in ages past. The Dead Men of Dunharrow were of their kin. Since the King of the Mountains was the one Isildur put the curse upon (_RotK_ p. 55 hb), I'd certainly think that the Dead of Dunharrow of the White Mountains at the end of the Second Age are likely to be the same as the dead Oathbreakers who are loitering around the White Mountains at the end of the Third Age. But the textual evidence is decidedly not certain, at least not from _my_ quick-and-dirty little research. :) Anyone else out there have something more concrete?... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ohh@speakeasy.org "Then Aragorn said: 'The hour is come at last. Now I go to Pelargir upon Anduin, and ye shall come after me. And when all this land is clean of the servants of Sauron, I will hold the oath fulfilled, and ye shall have peace and depart for ever. But first, if you don't mind, I'd like to see some identification. Proof of residence as well. Oh, and if you have some complete genealogical records handy it'd be helpful. You have to know these things when you're a King, you know.'" -_RotK_ p. 63 hardback ###### From: "Morgil" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Oathbreakers? Lines: 21 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 21:29:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.197.67.209 X-Trace: read2.inet.fi 978298144 194.197.67.209 (Sun, 31 Dec 2000 23:29:04 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 23:29:04 EET Organization: Sonera corp Internet services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!nntp.teliafi.net!nntp.inet.fi!central.inet.fi!inet.fi!read2.inet.fi.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30808 O. Sharp kirjoitti viestissä ... >ohh@speakeasy.org "Then Aragorn said: 'The hour is come at last. > Now I go to Pelargir upon Anduin, and ye shall come > after me. And when all this land is clean of the > servants of Sauron, I will hold the oath fulfilled, > and ye shall have peace and depart for ever. But > first, if you don't mind, I'd like to see some > identification. Proof of residence as well. Oh, > and if you have some complete genealogical records > handy it'd be helpful. You have to know these > things when you're a King, you know.'" > -_RotK_ p. 63 hardback LOL Morgil (So, I´ve had a couple...) ###### From: "Roberto Ullfig" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Oathbreakers? Lines: 52 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 23:59:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.69.121.230 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: ord-read.news.verio.net 978307167 206.69.121.230 (Sun, 31 Dec 2000 23:59:27 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2000 23:59:27 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!ord-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30822 "O. Sharp" wrote in message news:d4N36.153518$IP1.5252201@news1.giganews.com... : Roberto Ullfig asks: : : Is there an accurate reference stating where The Oathbreakers are equated : : with the Men of Dunharrow. I've seen this stated in Days' inaccurate book : : and in the BBC radio production. I always pictured The Oathbreakers as being : : from south of the mountains. : : I'm finding it unexpectedly difficult to provide a clean, clear, : unambiguous reference. But I would note that Appendix F, in the section : "Of Men" (_RotK_ pp. 407-8 hardback) says that the Dead of Dunharrow were : of the people of the White Mountains: : : [The Dunlendings] were a remnant of the peoples that had dwelt in the : vales of the White Mountains in ages past. The Dead Men of Dunharrow : were of their kin. : : Since the King of the Mountains was the one Isildur put the curse upon : (_RotK_ p. 55 hb), I'd certainly think that the Dead of Dunharrow of the : White Mountains at the end of the Second Age are likely to be the same : as the dead Oathbreakers who are loitering around the White Mountains : at the end of the Third Age. Oh, I agree that the "Dead of Dunharrow" are the Oathbreakers. What I was questioning was whether any of the Oathbreakers had actually lived in Dunharrow (being instead from South of the mountains). I had thought that only two people had ever lived in Dunharrow: Druedain (Pukel) and Rohirrim, but after reading a passage in the Druedain section of UT I see that "tall men from the East" drove out the Druedain from the area of Dunharrow (most likely sometime in the 2nd Age). It was then these Men that broke their oath to Isildur at the end of the 2nd Age - they are also the ancestors of the Dunlendings. Any possibility to the idea that Isildur, after the defeat of Sauron, went to Erech and cursed the Oathbreakers with the aid of the Ring. That curse sure was strong;) : : But the textual evidence is decidedly not certain, at least not from _my_ : quick-and-dirty little research. :) Anyone else out there have something : more concrete?... --- Roberto Ullfig - robo@suba.com http://www.suba.com/~robo ###### From: colinr@toliman.uio.no (Colin Rosenthal) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Oathbreakers? Date: 3 Jan 2001 13:40:37 GMT Organization: University of Oslo, Norway Lines: 35 Message-ID: <92va4l$mgk$1@readme.uio.no> References: Reply-To: colin.rosenthal@astro.uio.no NNTP-Posting-Host: toliman.uio.no User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (OSF1) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!merapi!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!colinr Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30871 On Sun, 31 Dec 2000 20:56:41 GMT, O. Sharp wrote: >Roberto Ullfig asks: >: Is there an accurate reference stating where The Oathbreakers are equated >: with the Men of Dunharrow. I've seen this stated in Days' inaccurate book >: and in the BBC radio production. I always pictured The Oathbreakers as being >: from south of the mountains. > >I'm finding it unexpectedly difficult to provide a clean, clear, >unambiguous reference. But I would note that Appendix F, in the section >"Of Men" (_RotK_ pp. 407-8 hardback) says that the Dead of Dunharrow were >of the people of the White Mountains: > > [The Dunlendings] were a remnant of the peoples that had dwelt in the > vales of the White Mountains in ages past. The Dead Men of Dunharrow > were of their kin. > >Since the King of the Mountains was the one Isildur put the curse upon >(_RotK_ p. 55 hb), I'd certainly think that the Dead of Dunharrow of the >White Mountains at the end of the Second Age are likely to be the same >as the dead Oathbreakers who are loitering around the White Mountains >at the end of the Third Age. > >But the textual evidence is decidedly not certain, at least not from _my_ >quick-and-dirty little research. :) Anyone else out there have something >more concrete?... Not really, but if they originally swore their Oath at the Stone of Erech that would suggest that they were a people from the southern side of the White Mountains, and therefore not originally from Dunharrow. -- Colin Rosenthal Astrophysics Institute University of Oslo ###### From: "Androg" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <92va4l$mgk$1@readme.uio.no> Subject: Re: Oathbreakers? Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 14:58:34 +1100 Lines: 29 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com Message-ID: <3a53f5a6$1@casper.southcom.com.au> X-Trace: 4 Jan 2001 04:01:42 GMT, delta.tavultesoft.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!merapi!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.labyrinth.net.au!casper.southcom.com.au!delta.tavultesoft.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30936 Colin Rosenthal wrote in message news:92va4l$mgk$1@readme.uio.no... > On Sun, 31 Dec 2000 20:56:41 GMT, > O. Sharp wrote: > > > >But the textual evidence is decidedly not certain, at least not from _my_ > >quick-and-dirty little research. :) Anyone else out there have something > >more concrete?... > > Not really, but if they originally swore their Oath at the Stone of Erech > that would suggest that they were a people from the southern side of the > White Mountains, and therefore not originally from Dunharrow. Well, there was a delving in the mountains there (which I assume they did) which led right through from Dunharrow to the root of Morthond, not far from Erech -- and after the curse became the "Paths of the Dead". I would imagine that this place was their habitation or fortress, and that using it they moved about on both sides of the White Mountains -- thus they could be from both Dunharrow and the Erech area, as it were. -- Androg "Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncuthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescene land, eardgeard elfa, and esa bliss."