From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Aelfwine Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 12:33:44 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 24 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.70 X-Server-Date: 15 Dec 2000 17:32:23 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!209.249.123.233.MISMATCH!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30586 I'm currently reading the excellent book /Tolkien's Legendarium/, and enjoying the essay about Aelfwine. The author makes the point that Aelfwine means, literally Elf- friend, and mentioned aelf as cognate to old Norse "alf", meaning elf. My Danish ordbog tells me that "alf" still means elf, and I know that in Scandinavian languages, "ven" = friend. So I believe Elf-friend in Danish, and possibly Swedish as well, would be Alfven. (Corrections from our Scandinavian friends are solicited.) As it happens, there _is_ a moderately famous Elf-friend by name, Hannes Alfvén (1908-1995), Nobel-prize-winning physicist. I thought there was a composer, Hugh (or Hugo) Alfven, but my Britannica doesn't mention him. A question: how is Aelfwine pronounced, -WIN, -WINE, -WIN-EH, or something else? -- Stan (Alfven) Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, NY, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Aelfwine Lines: 35 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 19:42:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.167.31 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: news.bahnhof.se 976909324 195.178.167.31 (Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:42:04 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:42:04 MET Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!news.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30566 Stan Brown wrote: > The author makes the point that Aelfwine means, literally Elf- > friend, and mentioned aelf as cognate to old Norse "alf", meaning > elf. My Danish ordbog tells me that "alf" still means elf, and I > know that in Scandinavian languages, "ven" = friend. So I believe > Elf-friend in Danish, and possibly Swedish as well, would be Alfven. > (Corrections from our Scandinavian friends are solicited.) Well, in modern Swedish it would be spellt Alvvän. Still same word, just the spelling that has changed and yes, it does mean elf-friend (your spelling of "vän" is part of your body...the blood runs through it). > As it happens, there _is_ a moderately famous Elf-friend by name, > Hannes Alfvén (1908-1995), Nobel-prize-winning physicist. I thought > there was a composer, Hugh (or Hugo) Alfven, but my Britannica > doesn't mention him. There's one Hugo Alfven that I know of but can't for the life of me remember what he is known for. For the moment my memory just lets me remember the name... > A question: how is Aelfwine pronounced, -WIN, -WINE, -WIN-EH, or > something else? I'd go for -WINE. /Jonas ###### From: Robert Brady Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Aelfwine Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:54:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: bradymill.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: bradymill.demon.co.uk:212.229.42.173 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 976914124 nnrp-02:24540 NO-IDENT bradymill.demon.co.uk:212.229.42.173 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.16-1 (i586)) Lines: 8 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!bradymill.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30550 Stan Brown wrote: > A question: how is Aelfwine pronounced, -WIN, -WINE, -WIN-EH, or > something else? I'd say -win, based on modern day "Godwin". -- Robert ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Aelfwine Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2000 18:01:20 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30585 On Fri, 15 Dec 2000 20:54:17 +0000, Robert Brady wrote: >Stan Brown wrote: >> A question: how is Aelfwine pronounced, -WIN, -WINE, -WIN-EH, or >> something else? > >I'd say -win, based on modern day "Godwin". As Old English, 'Aelfwine' would be pronounced '-WEEN-EH'. (And 'Aelf' would be pronounced like modern English 'ALF' with a slight 'u' sound, as in 'put', between the 'a' and the 'l' [okay, it's really a 'shwa'] all run together [as in any true diphthong]). the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- No analogy serves. There is nothing "like" the net." (Doktor DynaSoar Iridium) ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Aelfwine Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 11:16:20 -0800 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!207.126.101.73.MISMATCH!sn-xit-03!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30584 On Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:47:34 -0800, "Jim" wrote: > >the softrat wrote in message >news:fkel3tsg4aig3u68hel8to1be5jaodu6pm@4ax.com... >> As Old English, 'Aelfwine' would be pronounced '-WEEN-EH'. (And 'Aelf' >> would be pronounced like modern English 'ALF' with a slight 'u' sound, >> as in 'put', between the 'a' and the 'l' [okay, it's really a 'shwa'] >> all run together [as in any true diphthong]). >> >> the softrat >> mailto:softrat@pobox.com > >If the Ae is pronounced as in Welsh (Maes) then Ael would sound like isle >(as in Island...silent S) > Okay. But since it is *not* Welsh ... (Gee, what would it be pronounced like in Xhosa?) the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- If at first you DO succeed, try not to look astonished! ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue Wïzards Cult) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Aelfwine Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 15:59:19 -0800 Organization: Will pointlessly annoy people for food. Message-ID: References: X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 25 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c17.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30582 / > As Old English, 'Aelfwine' would be pronounced '-WEEN-EH'. (And 'Aelf' / > would be pronounced like modern English 'ALF' with a slight 'u' sound, / > as in 'put', between the 'a' and the 'l' [okay, it's really a 'shwa'] / > all run together [as in any true diphthong]). / If the Ae is pronounced as in Welsh (Maes) then Ael would sound like isle / (as in Island...silent S) ae: low front spread vowel l: voiced aveolar lateral f: labiodental fricative, voiced allophone when in the same word between voiced l and w. w: voiced bilabial semivowel i: high front spread vowel n: voiced aveolar nasal e: mid front spread vowel =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Sign up for WASHINGTON MUTUAL BANK's special We Rob You While You Sleep Service TODAY! =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 pretty pretty http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/ All new and improved web pages! Bookmark yours today! :)-free zone. Elect LUM World Dictator! ###### From: "Jim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Aelfwine Lines: 17 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:47:34 -0800 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.104.136.31 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 976988587 213.104.136.31 (Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:43:07 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 17:43:07 GMT Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!server3.netnews.ja.net!server4.netnews.ja.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30546 the softrat wrote in message news:fkel3tsg4aig3u68hel8to1be5jaodu6pm@4ax.com... > As Old English, 'Aelfwine' would be pronounced '-WEEN-EH'. (And 'Aelf' > would be pronounced like modern English 'ALF' with a slight 'u' sound, > as in 'put', between the 'a' and the 'l' [okay, it's really a 'shwa'] > all run together [as in any true diphthong]). > > the softrat > mailto:softrat@pobox.com If the Ae is pronounced as in Welsh (Maes) then Ael would sound like isle (as in Island...silent S) Jim D ###### From: Robert Brady Subject: Re: Aelfwine Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Reply-To: rwb197@ecs.soton.ac.uk X-URL: http://www.aber.mud.org/ X-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.16-spr (i686)) NNTP-Posting-Host: ugdirector.ecs.soton.ac.uk Message-ID: <3a3c294a@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Date: 17 Dec 2000 02:47:38 GMT X-Trace: 17 Dec 2000 02:47:38 GMT, ugdirector.ecs.soton.ac.uk Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!193.190.198.17.MISMATCH!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news-spool.soton.ac.uk!news.ecs.soton.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30562 the softrat wrote: >As Old English, 'Aelfwine' would be pronounced '-WEEN-EH'. (And 'Aelf' >would be pronounced like modern English 'ALF' with a slight 'u' sound, >as in 'put', between the 'a' and the 'l' [okay, it's really a 'shwa'] >all run together [as in any true diphthong]). Problem is, that sounds a bit jarring in modern English. I'd suggest just anglicising it to "alfwin". -- Robert ###### From: urban@panix.com (Michael Urban) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Aelfwine Date: 17 Dec 2000 11:36:07 -0500 Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 13 Message-ID: <91iq1n$o1$1@panix3.panix.com> References: <3a3c294a@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 977070967 18197 166.84.0.228 (17 Dec 2000 16:36:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 2000 16:36:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!panix!news.panix.com!panix3.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30552 In article <3a3c294a@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk>, Robert Brady wrote: >the softrat wrote: >>As Old English, 'Aelfwine' would be pronounced '-WEEN-EH'. (And 'Aelf' >>would be pronounced like modern English 'ALF' with a slight 'u' sound, >>as in 'put', between the 'a' and the 'l' [okay, it's really a 'shwa'] >>all run together [as in any true diphthong]). > >Problem is, that sounds a bit jarring in modern English. I'd suggest >just anglicising it to "alfwin". > Aw heck, just call him Alvin! ###### From: Matthias Koch-Schirrmeister Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Aelfwine Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 23:11:33 +0100 Organization: TellTaleHard - Rock In Progression Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3A3D3A15.3E7FC6F@telltalehard.de> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin-194-29-41-47.frankfurt.gigabell.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.okay.net 977090953 15789 194.29.41.47 (17 Dec 2000 22:09:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: Okay.Net Abuse Team NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Dec 2000 22:09:13 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [de] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.16 i586) X-Accept-Language: de-DE, en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!lmu.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!news.okay.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30590 Stan Brown wrote: > > A question: how is Aelfwine pronounced, -WIN, -WINE, -WIN-EH, or > something else? "wein" is a part of several german names and is pronounced like english "wine". It is obviously of scandinavian origin and through the normans made it´s way even into romanic names in France and Belgium (see Baudouin/Balduin = bald-wyn, "reliable friend"). Greetings Matthias -- TellTaleHard - Rock In Progression http://www.telltalehard.de ###### Message-ID: <3A3E27E6.600AB09E@po-box.mcgill.ca> From: Carl Blondin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Aelfwine References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 27 Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 15:03:29 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.168.182.9 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mcgill.ca X-Trace: carnaval.risq.qc.ca 977151809 198.168.182.9 (Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:03:29 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:03:29 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!carnaval.risq.qc.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30591 "China Blue Wïzards Cult" wrote: > > / > As Old English, 'Aelfwine' would be pronounced '-WEEN-EH'. (And 'Aelf' > / > would be pronounced like modern English 'ALF' with a slight 'u' sound, > / > as in 'put', between the 'a' and the 'l' [okay, it's really a 'shwa'] > / > all run together [as in any true diphthong]). > > / If the Ae is pronounced as in Welsh (Maes) then Ael would sound like isle > / (as in Island...silent S) > > ae: low front spread vowel > l: voiced aveolar lateral > f: labiodental fricative, voiced allophone when in the same word between > voiced l and w. > w: voiced bilabial semivowel > i: high front spread vowel > n: voiced aveolar nasal > e: mid front spread vowel But with that you're considering that the way in which it was spelled is meant to represent the phonetic value. Do you have any information that allows to make this assumption? And if you do, which phonetic system was used? That last one will affect the vowel pronunciation a lot. Carl ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue Wïzards Cult) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Aelfwine Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:26:44 -0800 Organization: Will pointlessly annoy people for food. Message-ID: References: <3A3E27E6.600AB09E@po-box.mcgill.ca> X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!do.de.uu.net!newsfeed.esat.net!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c174.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30600 / But with that you're considering that the way in which it was spelled is / meant to represent the phonetic value. Do you have any information that / allows to make this assumption? And if you do, which phonetic system / was used? That last one will affect the vowel pronunciation a lot. Pick up Bright's or anybody else's Old English Grammar. =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Sign up for WASHINGTON MUTUAL BANK's special We Rob You While You Sleep Service TODAY! =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 pretty pretty http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/ All new and improved web pages! Bookmark yours today! :)-free zone. Elect LUM World Dictator! ###### Message-ID: <3A3F6F6B.7B4D30A4@po-box.mcgill.ca> From: Carl Blondin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Aelfwine References: <3A3E27E6.600AB09E@po-box.mcgill.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 15 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 14:20:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.168.182.41 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mcgill.ca X-Trace: carnaval.risq.qc.ca 977235643 198.168.182.41 (Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:20:43 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 09:20:43 EST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!carnaval.risq.qc.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30596 "China Blue Wïzards Cult" wrote: > > / But with that you're considering that the way in which it was spelled is > / meant to represent the phonetic value. Do you have any information that > / allows to make this assumption? And if you do, which phonetic system > / was used? That last one will affect the vowel pronunciation a lot. > > Pick up Bright's or anybody else's Old English Grammar. True, I just remembered that CT says that it's completely OE in Lost Tales I and II. Carl