Lines: 42 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: earlofw@aol.com (Earlofw) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 08 Dec 2000 12:26:42 GMT Organization: AOL, http://www.aol.co.uk Subject: Astronomy of Middle-earth Message-ID: <20001208072642.01862.00001685@ng-fk1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30362 An intriguing subject! Has much been written on it? Somewhat in response to a previous post: "Away high in the East swung Remmirath, the Netted Stars, and slowly above the mists red Borgil rose, glowing like a jewel of fire. Then by some shift of airs all the mist was drawn away like a veil, and there leaned up, as he climbed over the rim of the world, the Swordsman of the Sky, Menelvagor with his shining belt." The speculation that Borgil is definitely Mars, might in my opinion not be so well-founded when cited from this quote because if we identify the Netted Stars with the Pleiades, as seems reasonable, and Menelvagor with Orion as seems equally reasonable, we have between them a good alternative candidate, the bright (1st magnitude) and visually reddish star Aldebaran. It is in fact the 14th brightest in apparent terms in the whole sky, and has a spectral type of K5, which is orange-red. On the other hand, Aldebaran is Alpha Tauri, and Taurus is of course a zodiacal constellation, which means it sits on the eclipic, which is the belt along which the planets appear to travel. At present (12/09/00) Jupiter and Saturn occupy approximately the same position, and should prove unmissable to anyone who goes out on a clear and moonless night and simply looks for the brightest object. That will be Jupiter, and you will see the Pleiades and Aldebaran close by. Mars, and all the planets, vary in apparent brightness and it waxes considerably brighter than Aldebaran, reaching at its brightest at closest opposition a magnitue of -2.8, which is extremel conspicuous. But it will spend by far the majority of its time in other parts of the sky, and come to opposition in those parts. What might be an interesting exercise would be to plot the positions of Mars at the time Tolkien is thought to have written the above passage. If you can provide me with a date I can make the necessary calculations. Prof. S.J. Lean ###### From: jsavard@ecn.ab.SBLOK.ca.nowhere (John Savard) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Astronomy of Middle-earth Message-ID: <3a47d6ae.1315311@news.powersurfr.com> References: <20001208072642.01862.00001685@ng-fk1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 43 Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 23:43:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.108.206.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@powersurfr.com X-Trace: news-rep.ab.videon.ca 977787799 24.108.206.34 (Mon, 25 Dec 2000 16:43:19 MST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 16:43:19 MST Organization: Videon CableSystems Alberta Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news-rep.ab.videon.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30684 On 08 Dec 2000 12:26:42 GMT, earlofw@aol.com (Earlofw) wrote, in part: >What might be an interesting exercise would be to >plot the positions of Mars at the time Tolkien is thought to have written the >above passage. Ah, I was going to say that one can't really give a date for when the events in the passage were supposed to have *taken place*. However, with a spectral class of K5, I would think that Aldebaran wouldn't look red to the naked eye, any more than an incandescent light bulb does. (However, being south of Orion, it would have risen after Orion, so it can be eliminated.) In addition to the Pleiades and Orion, there was a clear reference to Ursa Minor in LotR; since Tolkien was at pains to make the other astronomical references obvious, the identity of Borgil should not be something hard to discover. But that might tend to favor Aldebaran, as it has a known, constant location in the sky. Apparently some fans of LotR have considered Betelgeuse as a candidate for Borgil, although others say that Aldebaran is more reasonable. Since Betelgeuse has a spectral class of M2, at least it is more likely to be _noticeably_ reddish. But not only is Betelgeuse _in_ Orion, it's on the side of Orion that rises last over the horizon, and the text has Orion still rising when the mists cleared. Sirius, in the same stretch of the sky, is of spectral class A1, which makes it blue-white; however, the ancients referred to Sirius as 'red' for some reason as yet unknown. One site claims that "Borgil" is a compound, meaning "War Star". If so, that would tend to favor Mars. But that is apparently incorrect; in letter 427, Tolkien states that Borgil is Sindarin, and a compound meaning hot/red star. I would tend to think that deciding the question of whether Borgil is Aldebaran or Mars would, therefore, hang on the question of whether Aldebaran can be fairly claimed to be strikingly red. To me, the stars all look like tiny white points of light. John Savard http://home.ecn.ab.ca/~jsavard/crypto.htm ###### From: barbara29@mindspring.com (Barbara Mason) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Astronomy of Middle-earth Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 02:52:40 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 56 Message-ID: <3a4955dd.968139@news.mindspring.com> References: <20001208072642.01862.00001685@ng-fk1.aol.com> <3a47d6ae.1315311@news.powersurfr.com> Reply-To: barbara29@mindspring.com NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.70.b0 X-Server-Date: 27 Dec 2000 18:59:29 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.tele.dk!64.152.100.70!cyclone-sjo1.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30706 jsavard@ecn.ab.SBLOK.ca.nowhere (John Savard) wrote: >On 08 Dec 2000 12:26:42 GMT, earlofw@aol.com (Earlofw) wrote, in part: > >>What might be an interesting exercise would be to >>plot the positions of Mars at the time Tolkien is thought to have written the >>above passage. > >Ah, I was going to say that one can't really give a date for when the >events in the passage were supposed to have *taken place*. > >However, with a spectral class of K5, I would think that Aldebaran >wouldn't look red to the naked eye, any more than an incandescent >light bulb does. (However, being south of Orion, it would have risen >after Orion, so it can be eliminated.) The passage where the reference to Borgil occurs in "Three is Company" discusses the appearance as objects being gradually revealed by lifting mists towards the horizon. First we have the Remmirath (which, to the best of my knowledge has always been the Pleiades), then Borgil and finally, Menelvagor (which is undeniably Orion). The appearance then will more or less confirm to the stellar position in the sky. As you view them in the sky, Betelgeuse is the top left star in Orion, and it is hard to imagine a circumstance where Betelgeuse would be seen and THEN mists would lift to reveal Orion climbing over "the rim of the world." However, with a position in the sky in between the Pleiades and Orion, Aldebaran is ideally placed to be Borgil. It's not as bright or as red as Betelgeuse (but it is close), but amid the relatively fainter stars of the Hyades it is more striking. >Sirius, in the same stretch of the sky, is of spectral class A1, which >makes it blue-white; however, the ancients referred to Sirius as 'red' >for some reason as yet unknown. There was an article in Sky & Telescope a few years back about the "Red Sirius" myth. See the June 1992 issue. Another possilbe-astronomical reference I missed before is the following. I was reading the LotR the other day, and came upon the following passage (from "Many Partings"): "... and the falling Sun shone upon them and made all their harness to gleam like red gold, and the white mantle of Aragorn was turned to a flame. The Aragorn took the green stone and held it up, and there came a green fire from his hand." Sounds like the Green Flash to me. Brian Mason ###### From: "Androg" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20001208072642.01862.00001685@ng-fk1.aol.com> <3a47d6ae.1315311@news.powersurfr.com> Subject: Re: Astronomy of Middle-earth Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 23:09:42 +1100 Lines: 35 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com Message-ID: <3a4c7fa8@casper.southcom.com.au> X-Trace: 29 Dec 2000 12:12:24 GMT, delta.tavultesoft.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.labyrinth.net.au!casper.southcom.com.au!delta.tavultesoft.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30729 John Savard wrote in message news:3a47d6ae.1315311@news.powersurfr.com... > On 08 Dec 2000 12:26:42 GMT, earlofw@aol.com (Earlofw) wrote, in part: > > >What might be an interesting exercise would be to > >plot the positions of Mars at the time Tolkien is thought to have written the > >above passage. > > Ah, I was going to say that one can't really give a date for when the > events in the passage were supposed to have *taken place*. Well, as JRRT based the phases of the moon in LotR on the time when he was writing it (or revising it, I forget which), it is logical to assume that he did the same for the other astronomical bits. > I would tend to think that deciding the question of whether Borgil is > Aldebaran or Mars would, therefore, hang on the question of whether > Aldebaran can be fairly claimed to be strikingly red. To me, the stars > all look like tiny white points of light. I gather that Mars can be extremely bright in the sky (depending on time of year and whatever) -- that's why the phrase "Glowing like a jewel of fire" made me think Borgil referred to Mars. However, my knowledge of astronomy is not that great (despite the fact that my father was a professional astronomer :) -- Androg "Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncuthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescene land, eardgeard elfa, and esa bliss." ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Astronomy of Middle-earth Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 09:31:42 -0500 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <20001208072642.01862.00001685@ng-fk1.aol.com> <3a47d6ae.1315311@news.powersurfr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.7f.1c X-Server-Date: 29 Dec 2000 14:31:38 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30743 John Savard wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >In addition to the Pleiades and Orion, there was a clear reference to >Ursa Minor in LotR; since Tolkien was at pains to make the other >astronomical references obvious, the identity of Borgil should not be >something hard to discover. But that might tend to favor Aldebaran, as >it has a known, constant location in the sky. Constant over one little lifetime of Men, perhaps. But the "fixed stars" are not truly fixed; they have proper motions that mean the constellations of today are different from those many thousands of years ago. suggests that two thousand years is not enough to make an appreciable difference, but I think six thousand might. Barnard's Star would have moved 18 degrees, a tenth of the way across the sky. Other stars would move much less. But consider that half a degree is the width of the full moon. (In 6000 years this is 1/36 the motion of Barnard's Star.) If you take any constellation and move each of its stars even half a degree in random directions, the constellation will be distorted beyond recognition. As I say, I don't have figures to know the actual magnitude of the effect. A separate, larger, effect, is that the earth's axis does not always point at the same place, so Polaris was not the north star in Caesar's time. Since the Third Age was 3000 years long, we can be certain that for much or all of it there was no bright north star. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Androg" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20001208072642.01862.00001685@ng-fk1.aol.com> <3a47d6ae.1315311@news.powersurfr.com> <3a4955dd.968139@news.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Astronomy of Middle-earth Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 09:38:27 +1100 Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com Message-ID: <3a4d1305$1@casper.southcom.com.au> X-Trace: 29 Dec 2000 22:41:09 GMT, delta.tavultesoft.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!tungurahua!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.labyrinth.net.au!casper.southcom.com.au!delta.tavultesoft.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30761 Barbara Mason wrote in message news:3a4955dd.968139@news.mindspring.com... > > Another possilbe-astronomical reference I missed before is the > following. I was reading the LotR the other day, and came upon the > following passage (from "Many Partings"): > > "... and the falling Sun shone upon them and made all their > harness to gleam like red gold, and the white mantle of Aragorn > was turned to a flame. The Aragorn took the green stone and held it > up, and there came a green fire from his hand." Sounds just like the sunlight shining through and being focussed by the gemstone. -- Androg "Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncuthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescene land, eardgeard elfa, and esa bliss."