From: zero4ever25 <zero_ont@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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    Where is the proof in the books that Saruon held the 9 Nazgul rings
in the Dark Tower? I always though that they were on the fingers of the
Nine! It seems way too odd for them not to have the Rings themselves,
since they were "Ringwraths"...


--
"And I knew the Silence of the World"
-------zero4ever25
(a.k.a. tony bower)


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
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######

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/     Where is the proof in the books that Saruon held the 9 Nazgul rings
/ in the Dark Tower? I always though that they were on the fingers of the
/ Nine! It seems way too odd for them not to have the Rings themselves,
/ since they were "Ringwraths"...

All proofs either way depend the loudness of one's voice.

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######

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Quoth zero4ever25 <zero_ont@hotmail.com>:
>     Where is the proof in the books that Saruon held the 9 Nazgul
> rings in the Dark Tower?

I can't produce all of the arguments off the top of my head, but (as I
think others have already pointed out) I can say that the issue is far
from settled: there is no uncontested "proof" either way.

The firmest evidence that I know of for the Nazgul holding the Nine
themselves is Gandalf's comment "The Nine the Nazgul keep" (made while
he was accounting for the Great Rings in discussion at the Council of
Elrond).  The usual counter-argument points out that this could be a
highly formal way of saying "The Nine Rings keep control of the
Nazgul".  This is certainly valid grammatically, but it's just as
certainly not _normal_ usage, even for Gandalf in my opinion.
Together with the fact that Gandalf said this as part of a list of
where the Rings physically were, I _lean_ toward the notion that
Tolkien at least intended this comment to mean that the Nazgul held
their Rings (at least, as far as Gandalf knew).

That doesn't settle the question, however.  To present the other side
of the issue, I can do no better than to quote a post by Conrad
Dunkerson from about a year ago: [More comments of mine follow.]

  From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
  Subject: Re: The Nine Rings of Men
  Date: 14 Nov 1999 00:00:00 GMT
  Message-ID: <80n0o7$f7q$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
  Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien

  Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote in message
  news:80mq1s$2sk_006@news.uswest.net...

  > I'm of the position that Tolkien was inconsistent on the issue,
  > since there are texts which say Sauron had the Rings and which say
  > the Nazgul had them.

  Some quotations;

  "Yet it is a ring.  What then?  The Nine the Nazgul keep.  The Seven
  are taken or destroyed."
  Gandalf - FotR, The Council of Elrond

  "So it is now; the Nine he [Sauron] has gathered to himself; the
  Seven also, or else they are destroyed."
  Gandalf - FotR, The Shadow of the Past

  "You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine."
  Galadriel - FotR, The Mirror of Galadriel

  "At length he resolved that no others would serve him in this case
  but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his
  own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved
  him, which Sauron held."
  UT, The Hunt for the Ring

  "They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most
  suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to
  their Nine Rings, which he now himself held..."
  UT, The Hunt for the Ring

  "I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid
  hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or
  feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere
  with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through
  their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their
  wills."
  JRRT - Letters #246

  There are other references in earlier drafts of LotR, but as these
  references were edited out of the final texts they can't be a sure
  guide but overall they seem to indicate that the Nazgul did not have
  the Rings or that Sauron would hold them and give them out to the
  Nazgul at times to enhance their power.  Overall, only the first
  quotation above supports the Nazgul having the Rings themselves, and
  that one can also be read another way which removes the apparent
  inconsistency.  As such I'm heavily of the 'Sauron had the Rings'
  view, but allow that the one passage does allow for a view that JRRT
  was inconsistent on the issue.

I would point out that the second quote provided above could also be
interpreted to mean "gathered into his control" rather than "gathered
to him physically" (or to refer to older history, before the Rings
were given to the proto-Nazgul).  The third quote could similarly mean
"hold" as "holds sway over".  However, I view these readings as little
more natural than the alternate reading of the first quote (which I've
already discussed).  The quotes from UT and from _Letters_ seem far
less ambiguous, but they come from less canonical sources (though both
sources rank quite high on my scale of trustworthiness).

At any rate, I tend to be of much the same opinion as Conrad on this
issue.  I think I give less weight to the alternate reading of the
first quote than he does, and thus I see a greater degree of
inconsistency in Tolkien's intent.  However, in cases where we find
apparent inconsistencies in the texts, I tend to take much the same
approach that Tolkien himself apparently did: I look for the best
resolution that I can find that is consistent with the available
evidence.  In this case, I believe that the alternate reading of the
first quote is the best resolution of the problem, despite my
suspicion that it was not Tolkien's intent when he wrote it.

						Steuard Jensen

######

From: Tamim <tamim.khawaja@helsinki.fi>
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Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Steuard Jensen wrote:
> 
> Quoth zero4ever25 <zero_ont@hotmail.com>:
> >     Where is the proof in the books that Saruon held the 9 Nazgul
> > rings in the Dark Tower?
> 
> I can't produce all of the arguments off the top of my head, but (as I
> think others have already pointed out) I can say that the issue is far
> from settled: there is no uncontested "proof" either way.
> 
> The firmest evidence that I know of for the Nazgul holding the Nine
> themselves is Gandalf's comment "The Nine the Nazgul keep" (made while
> he was accounting for the Great Rings in discussion at the Council of
> Elrond).  The usual counter-argument points out that this could be a
> highly formal way of saying "The Nine Rings keep control of the
> Nazgul".  This is certainly valid grammatically, but it's just as
> certainly not _normal_ usage, even for Gandalf in my opinion.
> Together with the fact that Gandalf said this as part of a list of
> where the Rings physically were, I _lean_ toward the notion that
> Tolkien at least intended this comment to mean that the Nazgul held
> their Rings (at least, as far as Gandalf knew).
snip

I  am for the notion that Sauron had the Nine in the third age. The
argument is that he had to keep them in order to control the Nazgul, who
were enslaved by their rings. This is also implicated in the UT as your
quotes show.

When Sauron held the One he could obviously control the bearers of all
the rings (dwarves not included) through the power of the ring. So at
that time the rinwraiths had their rings. I think we agree on this.

But when he did not have the ring he couldn't control the bearers of the
Three. I know that the Nine were different because he had a part in
their making. So I can understand that he could have put somekind of a
curse on the rings so that he could control their bearers even when he
didn't have the ring. 

Somehow it is more consistant with the rest of the story that he needed
the one to control the ringwraiths. It was the ruling ring after all,
and had to have some purpose. Also it is more poetic to think that the
nazgul really didn't 'want' to serve him, but did it only because he had
power over them through their rings, which they were slaves of. And to
thus control the slaves of the nine, he either had to have the nine or
have direct control over the nine through his ruling ring. So the Nazgul
were not his slaves, but slaves of the nine. Had they gotten hold of
their own rings while he didn't have the one they could have turned
against him.

The witch king of Angmar seems to be a quite independent chap with a
mind will and desires of his own, though I know that he still was a
slave. 

I am sorry if I am not being very clear now, but I have slept but an
hour last night.

hallarilz

######

From: zero4ever25 <zero_ont@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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In article <DWQV5.156$x3.2582@uchinews>,
  sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote:
> Quoth zero4ever25 <zero_ont@hotmail.com>:
> >     Where is the proof in the books that Saruon held the 9 Nazgul
> > rings in the Dark Tower?
>
> I can't produce all of the arguments off the top of my head, but (as I
> think others have already pointed out) I can say that the issue is far
> from settled: there is no uncontested "proof" either way.
>
> The firmest evidence that I know of for the Nazgul holding the Nine
> themselves is Gandalf's comment "The Nine the Nazgul keep" (made while
> he was accounting for the Great Rings in discussion at the Council of
> Elrond).  The usual counter-argument points out that this could be a
> highly formal way of saying "The Nine Rings keep control of the
> Nazgul".  This is certainly valid grammatically, but it's just as
> certainly not _normal_ usage, even for Gandalf in my opinion.
> Together with the fact that Gandalf said this as part of a list of
> where the Rings physically were, I _lean_ toward the notion that
> Tolkien at least intended this comment to mean that the Nazgul held
> their Rings (at least, as far as Gandalf knew).
>
> That doesn't settle the question, however.  To present the other side
> of the issue, I can do no better than to quote a post by Conrad
> Dunkerson from about a year ago: [More comments of mine follow.]
>
>   From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
>   Subject: Re: The Nine Rings of Men
>   Date: 14 Nov 1999 00:00:00 GMT
>   Message-ID: <80n0o7$f7q$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
>   Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
>
>   Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote in message
>   news:80mq1s$2sk_006@news.uswest.net...
>
>   > I'm of the position that Tolkien was inconsistent on the issue,
>   > since there are texts which say Sauron had the Rings and which say
>   > the Nazgul had them.
>
>   Some quotations;
>
>   "Yet it is a ring.  What then?  The Nine the Nazgul keep.  The Seven
>   are taken or destroyed."
>   Gandalf - FotR, The Council of Elrond
>
>   "So it is now; the Nine he [Sauron] has gathered to himself; the
>   Seven also, or else they are destroyed."
>   Gandalf - FotR, The Shadow of the Past
>
>   "You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine."
>   Galadriel - FotR, The Mirror of Galadriel
>
>   "At length he resolved that no others would serve him in this case
>   but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his
>   own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved
>   him, which Sauron held."
>   UT, The Hunt for the Ring
>
>   "They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most
>   suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to
>   their Nine Rings, which he now himself held..."
>   UT, The Hunt for the Ring
>
>   "I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid
>   hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or
>   feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere
>   with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through
>   their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their
>   wills."
>   JRRT - Letters #246
>
>   There are other references in earlier drafts of LotR, but as these
>   references were edited out of the final texts they can't be a sure
>   guide but overall they seem to indicate that the Nazgul did not have
>   the Rings or that Sauron would hold them and give them out to the
>   Nazgul at times to enhance their power.  Overall, only the first
>   quotation above supports the Nazgul having the Rings themselves, and
>   that one can also be read another way which removes the apparent
>   inconsistency.  As such I'm heavily of the 'Sauron had the Rings'
>   view, but allow that the one passage does allow for a view that JRRT
>   was inconsistent on the issue.
>
> I would point out that the second quote provided above could also be
> interpreted to mean "gathered into his control" rather than "gathered
> to him physically" (or to refer to older history, before the Rings
> were given to the proto-Nazgul).  The third quote could similarly mean
> "hold" as "holds sway over".  However, I view these readings as little
> more natural than the alternate reading of the first quote (which I've
> already discussed).  The quotes from UT and from _Letters_ seem far
> less ambiguous, but they come from less canonical sources (though both
> sources rank quite high on my scale of trustworthiness).
>
> At any rate, I tend to be of much the same opinion as Conrad on this
> issue.  I think I give less weight to the alternate reading of the
> first quote than he does, and thus I see a greater degree of
> inconsistency in Tolkien's intent.  However, in cases where we find
> apparent inconsistencies in the texts, I tend to take much the same
> approach that Tolkien himself apparently did: I look for the best
> resolution that I can find that is consistent with the available
> evidence.  In this case, I believe that the alternate reading of the
> first quote is the best resolution of the problem, despite my
> suspicion that it was not Tolkien's intent when he wrote it.
>
> 						Steuard Jensen
>
>
Very interesting Steuard. I always just assumed that the Nazgul
actually wore the Rings all the time, but it seems that Sauron "held"
them. Thanks for your help!


--
"And I knew the Silence of the World"
-------zero4ever25
(a.k.a. tony bower)


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: kemosabe@skyenet.net (Masked Man)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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On Thu, 30 Nov 2000 21:13:30 GMT, zero4ever25 <zero_ont@hotmail.com>
wrote:

|   Where is the proof in the books that Saruon held the 9 Nazgul rings
|in the Dark Tower? I always though that they were on the fingers of the
|Nine! It seems way too odd for them not to have the Rings themselves,
|since they were "Ringwraths"...

Masked Man------>The only question  then is how does a wraith where a
ring?  You're right, though.  I always thought the Nazgul were like
Gollum in that respect:  couldnt bear to part with their rings to
their everlasting doom.

-- 




Who was that masked man?

######

From: skylar@attglobal.net (Skylar Thompson)
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Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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In <3A27EBBB.256C8C51@helsinki.fi>, Tamim <tamim.khawaja@helsinki.fi> writes:

>But when he did not have the ring he couldn't control the bearers of the
>Three. I know that the Nine were different because he had a part in
>their making. So I can understand that he could have put somekind of a
>curse on the rings so that he could control their bearers even when he
>didn't have the ring. 

I thought the Nine (and the Seven, for that matter) were made
by the Elves, and were gathered by Sauron in his attack on Eregion.

--Skylar Thompson (skylar@attglobal.net)

`All that is gold does not glitter/Not all who wander are lost
The old that is strong does not wither/Deep roots are not reached by the frost
From the ashes a fire shall be woken/A light from the shadows shall spring
Renewed shall be blade that was broken/The crownless again shall be king.'

######

From: jce@seasip.demon.co.uk (John Elliott)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2000 23:30:42 
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kemosabe@skyenet.net (Masked Man) wrote:
>Masked Man------>The only question  then is how does a wraith where a
>ring?

  The wraiths were invisible, but not intangible (they could break down the
door of the cottage in Crickhollow without any trouble) so wearing a ring 
wouldn't be a problem.

------------- http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/index.html --------------------
John Elliott           |BLOODNOK: "But why have you got such a long face?"
                       |SEAGOON: "Heavy dentures, Sir!"    - The Goon Show 
:-------------------------------------------------------------------------)

######

From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Steuard Jensen <sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in 
rec.arts.books.tolkien:

[a number of quotes, most saying that Sauron had the rings but some 
saying that the Nazgûl still bore them]

I think the story-external explanation is that JRRT started with one 
idea and revised it to the other, but missed some references.

A story-internal explanation is either that Gandalf made a slip in 
speaking at that particular time, or that he was simply mistaken.

-- 
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
                                     http://oakroadsystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm

######

From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Masked Man <kemosabe@skyenet.net> wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>Masked Man------>The only question  then is how does a wraith where a
>ring?  

The same way it wears clothes and a helm, and wields a sword.

-- 
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
                                     http://oakroadsystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm

######

From: Hallaril <hallaril@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Skylar Thompson <skylar@attglobal.net> wrote:
> In <3A27EBBB.256C8C51@helsinki.fi>, Tamim <tamim.khawaja@helsinki.fi> writes:

>>But when he did not have the ring he couldn't control the bearers of the
>>Three. I know that the Nine were different because he had a part in
>>their making. So I can understand that he could have put somekind of a
>>curse on the rings so that he could control their bearers even when he
>>didn't have the ring. 

> I thought the Nine (and the Seven, for that matter) were made
> by the Elves, and were gathered by Sauron in his attack on Eregion.

They were, but S helped as annatar-- 

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
References: <906ftj$nq7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <DWQV5.156$x3.2582@uchinews>
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"Steuard Jensen" <sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:DWQV5.156$x3.2582@uchinews...

> At any rate, I tend to be of much the same opinion as Conrad on
> this issue.  I think I give less weight to the alternate reading
> of the first quote than he does, and thus I see a greater degree
> of inconsistency in Tolkien's intent.

Heh, not surprising as the 'Rings keep the Nazgul' view was (to
the best of my recollection) originally my idea.  I concede
readily that it is a strained reading.  It is entirely possible
that Tolkien wrote the passage intending to say that the Nazgul had
the Rings.  He flipped back and forth on this issue or at precisely
which point the Nazgul should get the rings back several times in
the drafts.  It seems more likely that the one stray reference was
an oversight than a flowery turn of phrase.

>  However, in cases where we find apparent inconsistencies in the
> texts, I tend to take much the same approach that Tolkien himself
> apparently did: I look for the best resolution that I can find
> that is consistent with the available evidence.  In this case, I
> believe that the alternate reading of the first quote is the best
> resolution of the problem, despite my suspicion that it was not
> Tolkien's intent when he wrote it.

Precisely.  Tolkien's final intent seems fairly clear - the Nazgul
did not have their Rings during the time covered by LotR.  However,
we know that in earlier drafts they DID have the Rings at some
period or another during that time.  Most likely the one reference
at the Council is a 'leftover' from one of those earlier drafts,
but for consistency it is convenient to explain it as a flowery way
of saying that the Nine Rings keep the Nazgul under control... or
that Gandalf simply made a mistake.  The problem with the 'mistake'
view being that Gandalf himself had previously stated that Sauron
had 'gathered the Nine Rings to himself'.

######

From: skylar@attglobal.net (Skylar Thompson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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In <90am7o$914$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, Hallaril <hallaril@hotmail.com> writes:
>Skylar Thompson <skylar@attglobal.net> wrote:
>> In <3A27EBBB.256C8C51@helsinki.fi>, Tamim <tamim.khawaja@helsinki.fi> writes:
>
>>>But when he did not have the ring he couldn't control the bearers of the
>>>Three. I know that the Nine were different because he had a part in
>>>their making. So I can understand that he could have put somekind of a
>>>curse on the rings so that he could control their bearers even when he
>>>didn't have the ring. 
>
>> I thought the Nine (and the Seven, for that matter) were made
>> by the Elves, and were gathered by Sauron in his attack on Eregion.
>
>They were, but S helped as annatar-- 

But Annatar only gave the Elven-smiths the information they needed
to forge the Rings. Surely the Elves would have directions which
would put a curse on the Rings.

--Skylar Thompson (skylar@attglobal.net)

`All that is gold does not glitter/Not all who wander are lost
The old that is strong does not wither/Deep roots are not reached by the frost
From the ashes a fire shall be woken/A light from the shadows shall spring
Renewed shall be blade that was broken/The crownless again shall be king.'

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 09:23:54 -0700
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I may be able to shed some light:

In the view of Sauron, the nazgul were "possessions."  With the rings
on, Sauron was capable of controlling them.  Thus when they say that he
has gathered the "nine" to himself, they are saying that he has gathered
the nine rings on the nine fingers of the nazgul to himself...

There is plenty more support for the idea that the nazgul held the
rings.  Instead of looking for evidence of ownership, it is valuable to
know the interrelationship of the rings:
 - Galadriel had a ring.  She did not want its whereabouts known because
Sauron could control it.  Recall that when Sauron made the One, the
other elves removed their rings.  Without those rings, he couldn't
control them.  Thus, the rings must be a tool for control (meaning that
Sauron couldn't hold them, but that they had to be on fingers to be
effective)
 - Recall that after Gollum lost the ring he aged and that he had an
incredible lust for the ring (the same goes for Frodo or Bilbo when they
were separated from it).  Would not the same apply to the nine? 
Wouldn't the Nazgul eventually die after not wearing the ring (the ring
imparts everlasting life to the wearer, but there is ample evidence to
suggest that without the ring, the nine would have died).  While I grant
that the lust for the ring could have been used to influence the Nazgul,
such influence would have had to be general as Sauron would have been
unable to directly communicate with the nine.  

Seems like this issue would have been resolved already.  Also, BTY, have
you guys ever found a resolution to the great Balrog bunny slippers
debate?  I personally go in for the idea that they do indeed wear bunny
slippers...

Steuard Jensen wrote:
> 
> Quoth zero4ever25 <zero_ont@hotmail.com>:
> >     Where is the proof in the books that Saruon held the 9 Nazgul
> > rings in the Dark Tower?
> 
> I can't produce all of the arguments off the top of my head, but (as I
> think others have already pointed out) I can say that the issue is far
> from settled: there is no uncontested "proof" either way.
> 
> The firmest evidence that I know of for the Nazgul holding the Nine
> themselves is Gandalf's comment "The Nine the Nazgul keep" (made while
> he was accounting for the Great Rings in discussion at the Council of
> Elrond).  The usual counter-argument points out that this could be a
> highly formal way of saying "The Nine Rings keep control of the
> Nazgul".  This is certainly valid grammatically, but it's just as
> certainly not _normal_ usage, even for Gandalf in my opinion.
> Together with the fact that Gandalf said this as part of a list of
> where the Rings physically were, I _lean_ toward the notion that
> Tolkien at least intended this comment to mean that the Nazgul held
> their Rings (at least, as far as Gandalf knew).
> 
> That doesn't settle the question, however.  To present the other side
> of the issue, I can do no better than to quote a post by Conrad
> Dunkerson from about a year ago: [More comments of mine follow.]
> 
>   From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
>   Subject: Re: The Nine Rings of Men
>   Date: 14 Nov 1999 00:00:00 GMT
>   Message-ID: <80n0o7$f7q$1@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
>   Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
> 
>   Michael Martinez <Michael@xenite.org> wrote in message
>   news:80mq1s$2sk_006@news.uswest.net...
> 
>   > I'm of the position that Tolkien was inconsistent on the issue,
>   > since there are texts which say Sauron had the Rings and which say
>   > the Nazgul had them.
> 
>   Some quotations;
> 
>   "Yet it is a ring.  What then?  The Nine the Nazgul keep.  The Seven
>   are taken or destroyed."
>   Gandalf - FotR, The Council of Elrond
> 
>   "So it is now; the Nine he [Sauron] has gathered to himself; the
>   Seven also, or else they are destroyed."
>   Gandalf - FotR, The Shadow of the Past
> 
>   "You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine."
>   Galadriel - FotR, The Mirror of Galadriel
> 
>   "At length he resolved that no others would serve him in this case
>   but his mightiest servants, the Ringwraiths, who had no will but his
>   own, being each utterly subservient to the ring that had enslaved
>   him, which Sauron held."
>   UT, The Hunt for the Ring
> 
>   "They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most
>   suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to
>   their Nine Rings, which he now himself held..."
>   UT, The Hunt for the Ring
> 
>   "I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid
>   hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or
>   feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere
>   with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through
>   their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their
>   wills."
>   JRRT - Letters #246
> 
>   There are other references in earlier drafts of LotR, but as these
>   references were edited out of the final texts they can't be a sure
>   guide but overall they seem to indicate that the Nazgul did not have
>   the Rings or that Sauron would hold them and give them out to the
>   Nazgul at times to enhance their power.  Overall, only the first
>   quotation above supports the Nazgul having the Rings themselves, and
>   that one can also be read another way which removes the apparent
>   inconsistency.  As such I'm heavily of the 'Sauron had the Rings'
>   view, but allow that the one passage does allow for a view that JRRT
>   was inconsistent on the issue.
> 
> I would point out that the second quote provided above could also be
> interpreted to mean "gathered into his control" rather than "gathered
> to him physically" (or to refer to older history, before the Rings
> were given to the proto-Nazgul).  The third quote could similarly mean
> "hold" as "holds sway over".  However, I view these readings as little
> more natural than the alternate reading of the first quote (which I've
> already discussed).  The quotes from UT and from _Letters_ seem far
> less ambiguous, but they come from less canonical sources (though both
> sources rank quite high on my scale of trustworthiness).
> 
> At any rate, I tend to be of much the same opinion as Conrad on this
> issue.  I think I give less weight to the alternate reading of the
> first quote than he does, and thus I see a greater degree of
> inconsistency in Tolkien's intent.  However, in cases where we find
> apparent inconsistencies in the texts, I tend to take much the same
> approach that Tolkien himself apparently did: I look for the best
> resolution that I can find that is consistent with the available
> evidence.  In this case, I believe that the alternate reading of the
> first quote is the best resolution of the problem, despite my
> suspicion that it was not Tolkien's intent when he wrote it.
> 
>                                                 Steuard Jensen

######

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First, just a little stylistic note: you may want to take a look at
the Tolkien Newsgroups FAQ for discussions of "proper" posting style,
particularly the bits about quoting only important portions of
previous posts and about putting your response below the quoted
material on the page.  On to actual relevant stuff...

Quoth Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> in article
<3A2D169A.5EEE3F0D@dana.ucc.nau.edu>: 
> Instead of looking for evidence of ownership, it is valuable to
> know the interrelationship of the rings:

The trouble is that we don't really know how the Rings worked.  Most
of what we _do_ know has to be inferred from the ways we see them used
in the books.  That means, among other things, that we should probably
draw conclusions about the way the Nine affected the Nazgul from who
physically held them, rather than the reverse.  More details below...

> Recall that when Sauron made the One, the other elves removed their
> rings.  Without those rings, he couldn't control them.

Very true.  And as I recall, the Nazgul arose in the Second Age, while
Sauron still held the One and they were subject to his will through
its domination of their Rings.  However, I would contend that it's
likely that the bond between each Nazgul and its Ring became even
stronger than the bond between their Rings and the One.  If Sauron
_could_ possess the Nine Rings, then it's quite possible that he could
dominate the Nazgul through them directly.  I'm not saying we know
this a priori, but it certainly seems to be the implication of the
quotes by Tolkien that suggest Sauron physically held the Nine.

>  - Recall that after Gollum lost the ring he aged...

He aged?  He didn't seem particularly old and decrepit when we saw him
in LotR, at least.  In fact, we know that he lived without the Ring
all the time between Bilbo's fifty-first birthday (roughly) his
hundred and twenty-eighth: an amazing total of 77 years!  Even if
Gollum had been just thirteen years old when he murdered Deagol, and
even if he didn't age at all in the interim, this is still a 90 year
old hobbit we're talking about (and that's being generous in quite a
few ways).  Hobbits do live to be 100 as often as not (as I recall),
but it would take quite a 90 year old hobbit to climb down cliff faces
or to fight so successfully with Sam on the two occasions when he
did.  I think that somehow, the Ring continued to slow Gollum's aging
process even from a distance.  For all we know, that effect would be a
great deal stronger for a Ring bearer who actually became a wraith
from frequent use.

> Wouldn't the Nazgul eventually die after not wearing the ring (the
> ring imparts everlasting life to the wearer, but there is ample
> evidence to suggest that without the ring, the nine would have
> died).

Again, I ask what evidence you're citing here?  I would claim that
_if_ the quotes that suggest that the Nazgul did _not_ hold their
Rings are correct, this is evidence against your claim here.

						Steuard Jensen

######

From: Hallaril <hallaril@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> I may be able to shed some light:

> In the view of Sauron, the nazgul were "possessions."  With the rings
> on, Sauron was capable of controlling them.  Thus when they say that he
> has gathered the "nine" to himself, they are saying that he has gathered
> the nine rings on the nine fingers of the nazgul to himself...

> There is plenty more support for the idea that the nazgul held the
> rings.  Instead of looking for evidence of ownership, it is valuable to
> know the interrelationship of the rings:
>  - Galadriel had a ring.  She did not want its whereabouts known because
> Sauron could control it.  Recall that when Sauron made the One, the
> other elves removed their rings.  Without those rings, he couldn't
> control them.  Thus, the rings must be a tool for control (meaning that
> Sauron couldn't hold them, but that they had to be on fingers to be
> effective)k

Very nice. But you just used the one evidence that proves against Nazgul
wearing their rings. He could not control Galadriel without the one.
Remember the text on the one. It is not Sauron who controls the wearers
of the other rings. No, it him, but only through the one ring.

Hallaril

######

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From: gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax)
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Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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>Very true.  And as I recall, the Nazgul arose in the Second Age, while
>Sauron still held the One and they were subject to his will through
>its domination of their Rings.  However, I would contend that it's
>likely that the bond between each Nazgul and its Ring became even
>stronger than the bond between their Rings and the One.  If Sauron
>_could_ possess the Nine Rings, then it's quite possible that he could
>dominate the Nazgul through them directly.  I'm not saying we know
>this a priori, but it certainly seems to be the implication of the
>quotes by Tolkien that suggest Sauron physically held the Nine.

Just for clarification, are you suggesting that Sauron could control the Nazgul
simply by possessing their Rings?  It doesn't quite seem logical to me that the
Nazgul would be under such complete control if the Rings were locked up in a
chest in the Barad-dur somewhere.  Or are you suggesting that he actually wore
the Rings, and controlled them that way.  I suppose this is possible, but it
also seems a bit strange to me.  

Gaius Maximus

######

From: Skylar Thompson <skylar@attglobal.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 15:43:35 GMT
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

On 12-05-00, 18:33:08, Hallaril <hallaril@hotmail.com> wrote regarding=20=

Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?:


> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> > I may be able to shed some light:

> > In the view of Sauron, the nazgul were "possessions."  With the ring=
s
> > on, Sauron was capable of controlling them.  Thus when they say that=
=20
he
> > has gathered the "nine" to himself, they are saying that he has=20
gathered
> > the nine rings on the nine fingers of the nazgul to himself...

> > There is plenty more support for the idea that the nazgul held the
> > rings.  Instead of looking for evidence of ownership, it is valuable=
=20
to
> > know the interrelationship of the rings:
> >  - Galadriel had a ring.  She did not want its whereabouts known=20=

because
> > Sauron could control it.  Recall that when Sauron made the One, the=

> > other elves removed their rings.  Without those rings, he couldn't
> > control them.  Thus, the rings must be a tool for control (meaning=20=

that
> > Sauron couldn't hold them, but that they had to be on fingers to be=

> > effective)k

> Very nice. But you just used the one evidence that proves against=20
Nazgul
> wearing their rings. He could not control Galadriel without the one.
> Remember the text on the one. It is not Sauron who controls the=20
wearers
> of the other rings. No, it him, but only through the one ring.

Could Frodo control the Nine with the One? If not, perhaps the Nazgul=20=

know their true master (after all, they know the true mastery of the=20=

Ring).

--=20
Skylar Thompson,
eMail: skylar@attglobal.net

`All that is gold does not glitter/Not all who wander are lost
The old that is strong does not wither/Deep roots are not reached by=20=

the frost
From the ashes a fire shall be woken/A light from the shadows shall=20
spring
Renewed shall be blade that was broken/The crownless again shall be=20
king.'

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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[I said:]
> >If Sauron _could_ possess the Nine Rings, then it's quite possible
> >that he could dominate the Nazgul through them directly.

Quoth gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) in article
<20001205133804.17413.00004361@ng-cg1.aol.com>: 
> Just for clarification, are you suggesting that Sauron could control
> the Nazgul simply by possessing their Rings?

I was actually not making any definite claim as to _how_ Sauron would
use the Nine Rings to control the Nazgul.  He could have worn the
Rings and exerted some direct domination over the Nazgul, or he could
have simply kept the Rings somewhere and traded access to them for
loyalty (I have no idea whether or how often the Nazgul had to come in
physical contact with their Rings).  This is also an interesting
question, but in some sense it arises only _after_ we've decided that
Sauron physically held the Nine Rings (or after we agree to take that
as a postulate, at least).
						Steuard Jensen

######

From: "Durin VII" <a_fred_B@hotmail.com>
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"GaiusMax" <gaiusmax@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001205133804.17413.00004361@ng-cg1.aol.com...
<snip>
> Just for clarification, are you suggesting that Sauron could control the
Nazgul
> simply by possessing their Rings?  It doesn't quite seem logical to me
that the
> Nazgul would be under such complete control if the Rings were locked up in
a
> chest in the Barad-dur somewhere.  Or are you suggesting that he actually
wore
> the Rings, and controlled them that way.  I suppose this is possible, but
it
> also seems a bit strange to me.
>
> Gaius Maximus

I don't think either scenario is that strange.  It may not have even have
been direct 'magical' control but Sauron just saying 'do as I say or I won't
let you even look at you rings again'.  But I think it likely that he did
actually wear the 9. He was without his one ring and at a deficit of power
because of it, not to mention he was weakened by being defeated a couple of
times. He probably wanted as much 'personal' strength as possible.

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 16:07:21 -0700
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Steuard Jensen wrote:
> 
> First, just a little stylistic note: you may want to take a look at
> the Tolkien Newsgroups FAQ for discussions of "proper" posting style,
> particularly the bits about quoting only important portions of
> previous posts and about putting your response below the quoted
> material on the page.  On to actual relevant stuff...
> 

I'm too lazy, kick me off...

> Quoth Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> in article
> <3A2D169A.5EEE3F0D@dana.ucc.nau.edu>:
> > Instead of looking for evidence of ownership, it is valuable to
> > know the interrelationship of the rings:
> 
> The trouble is that we don't really know how the Rings worked.  Most
> of what we _do_ know has to be inferred from the ways we see them used
> in the books.  That means, among other things, that we should probably
> draw conclusions about the way the Nine affected the Nazgul from who
> physically held them, rather than the reverse.  More details below...
> 
> > Recall that when Sauron made the One, the other elves removed their
> > rings.  Without those rings, he couldn't control them.
> 
> Very true.  And as I recall, the Nazgul arose in the Second Age, while
> Sauron still held the One and they were subject to his will through
> its domination of their Rings.  However, I would contend that it's
> likely that the bond between each Nazgul and its Ring became even
> stronger than the bond between their Rings and the One.  If Sauron
> _could_ possess the Nine Rings, then it's quite possible that he could
> dominate the Nazgul through them directly.  I'm not saying we know
> this a priori, but it certainly seems to be the implication of the
> quotes by Tolkien that suggest Sauron physically held the Nine.
> 
> >  - Recall that after Gollum lost the ring he aged...
> 
> He aged?  He didn't seem particularly old and decrepit when we saw him
> in LotR, at least.  In fact, we know that he lived without the Ring
> all the time between Bilbo's fifty-first birthday (roughly) his
> hundred and twenty-eighth: an amazing total of 77 years!  Even if
> Gollum had been just thirteen years old when he murdered Deagol, and
> even if he didn't age at all in the interim, this is still a 90 year
> old hobbit we're talking about (and that's being generous in quite a
> few ways).  Hobbits do live to be 100 as often as not (as I recall),
> but it would take quite a 90 year old hobbit to climb down cliff faces
> or to fight so successfully with Sam on the two occasions when he
> did.  I think that somehow, the Ring continued to slow Gollum's aging
> process even from a distance.  For all we know, that effect would be a
> great deal stronger for a Ring bearer who actually became a wraith
> from frequent use.

That is actually not true.  Gandalf says in one of the books that Gollum
looked and acted older, evidence that the ring was losing its hold on
him (one of two pieces of evidence, actually).  

> 
> > Wouldn't the Nazgul eventually die after not wearing the ring (the
> > ring imparts everlasting life to the wearer, but there is ample
> > evidence to suggest that without the ring, the nine would have
> > died).
> 
> Again, I ask what evidence you're citing here?  I would claim that
> _if_ the quotes that suggest that the Nazgul did _not_ hold their
> Rings are correct, this is evidence against your claim here.

??  To refute that you would actually need direct quotes, not the vague
ones already presented.  Plus logical analysis...

> 
>                                                 Steuard Jensen

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Yes, that is actually exactly what they are suggesting.  

GaiusMax wrote:
> 
> >Very true.  And as I recall, the Nazgul arose in the Second Age, while
> >Sauron still held the One and they were subject to his will through
> >its domination of their Rings.  However, I would contend that it's
> >likely that the bond between each Nazgul and its Ring became even
> >stronger than the bond between their Rings and the One.  If Sauron
> >_could_ possess the Nine Rings, then it's quite possible that he could
> >dominate the Nazgul through them directly.  I'm not saying we know
> >this a priori, but it certainly seems to be the implication of the
> >quotes by Tolkien that suggest Sauron physically held the Nine.
> 
> Just for clarification, are you suggesting that Sauron could control the Nazgul
> simply by possessing their Rings?  It doesn't quite seem logical to me that the
> Nazgul would be under such complete control if the Rings were locked up in a
> chest in the Barad-dur somewhere.  Or are you suggesting that he actually wore
> the Rings, and controlled them that way.  I suppose this is possible, but it
> also seems a bit strange to me.
> 
> Gaius Maximus

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 16:09:26 -0700
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Durin VII wrote:
> 
> "GaiusMax" <gaiusmax@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20001205133804.17413.00004361@ng-cg1.aol.com...
> <snip>
> > Just for clarification, are you suggesting that Sauron could control the
> Nazgul
> > simply by possessing their Rings?  It doesn't quite seem logical to me
> that the
> > Nazgul would be under such complete control if the Rings were locked up in
> a
> > chest in the Barad-dur somewhere.  Or are you suggesting that he actually
> wore
> > the Rings, and controlled them that way.  I suppose this is possible, but
> it
> > also seems a bit strange to me.
> >
> > Gaius Maximus
> 
> I don't think either scenario is that strange.  It may not have even have
> been direct 'magical' control but Sauron just saying 'do as I say or I won't
> let you even look at you rings again'.  But I think it likely that he did
> actually wear the 9. He was without his one ring and at a deficit of power
> because of it, not to mention he was weakened by being defeated a couple of
> times. He probably wanted as much 'personal' strength as possible.

??  In any event, with or without the ring, Sauron was much more
powerful than Gandalf or the nine...  That would disconfirm your claim.

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 16:13:27 -0700
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Hallaril wrote:
> 
> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> > I may be able to shed some light:
> 
> > In the view of Sauron, the nazgul were "possessions."  With the rings
> > on, Sauron was capable of controlling them.  Thus when they say that he
> > has gathered the "nine" to himself, they are saying that he has gathered
> > the nine rings on the nine fingers of the nazgul to himself...
> 
> > There is plenty more support for the idea that the nazgul held the
> > rings.  Instead of looking for evidence of ownership, it is valuable to
> > know the interrelationship of the rings:
> >  - Galadriel had a ring.  She did not want its whereabouts known because
> > Sauron could control it.  Recall that when Sauron made the One, the
> > other elves removed their rings.  Without those rings, he couldn't
> > control them.  Thus, the rings must be a tool for control (meaning that
> > Sauron couldn't hold them, but that they had to be on fingers to be
> > effective)k
> 
> Very nice. But you just used the one evidence that proves against Nazgul
> wearing their rings. He could not control Galadriel without the one.
> Remember the text on the one. It is not Sauron who controls the wearers
> of the other rings. No, it him, but only through the one ring.
> 

??  What?  That paragraph is completely illogical, especially in light
of my statement.  I am saying that the Nazgul held the rings that Sauron
gave to them.  Of course Sauron could only control the wearers of the
other rings while wearing the one.  That is a priori.  What you just
said is basically a restatement of what I just said above.  

> Hallaril

######

From: Hallaril <hallaril@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:



>> 

> ??  What?  That paragraph is completely illogical, especially in light
> of my statement.  I am saying that the Nazgul held the rings that Sauron
> gave to them.  Of course Sauron could only control the wearers of the
> other rings while wearing the one.  That is a priori.  What you just
> said is basically a restatement of what I just said above.  

No, it was not illogical. The fact that Sauron could not control
Galadriel without the one ring, does implicate that he could not control
the Nazgul either. The nine were made by elves, not by sauron, although
he helped. They were not made to be controlled by Sauron.
On the other hand they were not made to be worn by mortals, so that is
why the Nazgul were so greatly affected by them. Sauron made the One
ring for mainly one reason: to be able to control the wearers of the
other rings. He wanted it back for this reason. 

So what I am trying to say is that the only way Sauron could control the
Nazgul without the one was to posses the nine personally.

Hallaril


-- 

######

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   Has anyone considered the case of Frodo and Gollum as a possible parallel
here?  Through his possession of the Ring, Frodo was able to command Gollum
pretty effectively, which could serve as a parallel to Sauron holding the Nine
Rings and using them to control the Nazgul.  True, Gollum retained a will of
his own, and was even able to betray Frodo, but this could be explained by the
fact that a) Gollum was less under the control of the Ring then the Nazgul were
of theirs, both due to being a Hobbit and not having possessed it as long, and
b) Frodo was inherently far less powerful and commanding than Sauron, even
after Sauron lost the Ring.  It should also be noted that Gollum was unable to
violate the letter of his promise to Frodo.  He was only able to betray him by
exploiting a loophole, a mistake which I'm sure Sauron would not have made.  I
had thought previously that the Nazgul held the Nine themselves, but this
parallel has convinced me that Sauron could hold the Nine and still control the
Nazgul effectively.

Gaius Maximus

######

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Quoth Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> in article
<3A2D7529.5AF2A4BA@dana.ucc.nau.edu>: 
> Steuard Jensen wrote:

> > >  - Recall that after Gollum lost the ring he aged...
> > 
> > He aged?  He didn't seem particularly old and decrepit when we saw him
> > in LotR, at least.  In fact, we know that he lived without the Ring
> > all the time between Bilbo's fifty-first birthday (roughly) his
> > hundred and twenty-eighth: an amazing total of 77 years!
[snip discussion of Gollum not seeming to have aged]

> That is actually not true.  Gandalf says in one of the books that
> Gollum looked and acted older, evidence that the ring was losing its
> hold on him (one of two pieces of evidence, actually).

Really?  My mistake, then; I'd forgotten that.  I'm not saying that I
disbelieve you, but I do want to look at the quote for myself.  Where
can I find it?

On another note, even if Gollum did age in the 77 years that he lived
without the Ring, I still suspect that he didn't age as quickly as he
would have otherwise (let me know if the Gandalf quote you've referred
to above says otherwise!).  Given that, I don't think it's beyond the
realm of plausibility that the Nazgul (after fading into wraiths)
would age even more slowly when separated from their Rings.  It's even
possible that all they needed to hold off aging altogether was to hold
their Rings on an occasional basis... which would provide one indirect
method for Sauron to control the Nazgul by having possession of their
Rings (though in this case, it seems likely that one of them _could_
potentially have rebelled if he got his hands on the One).

[You said:]
> > > ...there is ample evidence to suggest that without the ring, the
> > > nine would have died).

> > Again, I ask what evidence you're citing here?  I would claim that
> > _if_ the quotes that suggest that the Nazgul did _not_ hold their
> > Rings are correct, this is evidence against your claim here.

> ??  To refute that you would actually need direct quotes, not the
> vague ones already presented.  Plus logical analysis...

In fact, direct quotes were precisely what I was asking for.  I may be
misreading your statement, though: whe you say "without the ring", do
you mean "without physically holding their own Rings" or do you mean
"in the event that the One Ring was destroyed"?  I thought you meant
the former; I certainly won't argue with the latter.

According to my current belief, when the One was destroyed all of the
Great Rings (at least) immediately lost their powers.  In particular,
whatever ability the Nine had to sustain the Nazgul would be broken.
Now, I tend to take Gollum's statement that "when Precious goes we'll
die, yes, die into the dust" quite literally: I think that he would
die immediately due to centuries of withheld aging catching up with
him all at once.  I wouldn't be surprised, in fact, if he _did_ decay
a good bit of the way to dust all in one fell swoop.  For the Nazgul,
I would expect an end just as swift and just as extreme.  On the other
hand, I don't see how this whole story is particularly relevant to the
question of _where_ the Nine Rings were.

If, on the other hand, you _did_ mean that each Nazgul had to
physically hold his own Ring to avoid dying of old age, I stand by my
claim.  We know that the Nazgul had not died of old age by the time of
LotR, so _if_ Sauron physically held the Nine Rings, then it's clear
that the Nazgul did not need to hold the Rings to avoid aging.  If
you're asking for direct quotes showing that Sauron physically held
the Nine Rings, I refer you to the extensive list that I presented in
my first post to this thread.

My point was simply that we have to figure out how the Rings worked
indirectly.  There simply isn't enough direct evidence about the
Rings' operation and powers for us to draw conclusions about other
issues based on details of the Rings' properties.

						Steuard Jensen

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
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"GaiusMax" <gaiusmax@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001205200610.09486.00002604@ng-cg1.aol.com...

> Has anyone considered the case of Frodo and Gollum as a possible
> parallel here?

My personal favorite theory actually.  Don't get me started.  :)

> Through his possession of the Ring, Frodo was able to command
> Gollum pretty effectively, which could serve as a parallel to
> Sauron holding the Nine Rings and using them to control the
> Nazgul.

"If I, wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it
were to leap from a precipice or to cast yourself into the fire.
And such would be my command.  So have a care, Smeagol!"
Frodo to Gollum, TT - The Black Gate is Closed

"Begone, and trouble me no more!  If you touch me ever again, you
shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom."
Voice out of the fire to Gollum, RotK - Mount Doom

"But Gollum, dancing like a mad thing, held aloft the ring, a
finger still thrust within its circle.  It shone now as if verily
it was wrought of living fire.
   'Precious, precious, precious!' Gollum cried.  'My Precious!  O
my Precious!'  And with that, even as his eyes were lifted up to
gloat on his prize, he stepped too far, toppled, wavered for a
moment on the brink, and then with a shriek he fell."
Narrative, RotK - Mount Doom

> True, Gollum retained a will of his own, and was even able to
> betray Frodo, but this could be explained by the fact that a)
> Gollum was less under the control of the Ring then the Nazgul
> were of theirs, both due to being a Hobbit and not having
> possessed it as long, and b) Frodo was inherently far less
> powerful and commanding than Sauron, even after Sauron lost the
> Ring.

I think the fact that Gollum never faded allowed him a greater
degree of self-will than the Nazgul enjoyed, but even they retained
enough sense of self that Tolkien described them as having fear,
amusement, and other emotions.  Sauron's control was so great that
they could not act against him, but they still existed as
individual entities.

> I had thought previously that the Nazgul held the Nine
> themselves, but this parallel has convinced me that Sauron could
> hold the Nine and still control the Nazgul effectively.

To state it directly;
Gollum's will was enslaved to the One
Frodo could therefor command Gollum while he held the One

The Nazguls' wills were enslaved to the Nine
Sauron could therefor command them while he held the Nine
The One controlled the Nine
Sauron could therefor also command the Nazgul while he held the One


All seems reasonable to me and consistent with JRRT's statements
on the matter.

######

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"Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
news:3A2D169A.5EEE3F0D@dana.ucc.nau.edu...

> Thus when they say that he has gathered the "nine" to himself,
> they are saying that he has gathered the nine rings on the nine
> fingers of the nazgul to himself...

A possible interpretation, but it is actually stated that Sauron
has gathered the Seven AND the Nine to himself (or such of the
Seven as still exist).  Since we know that the Seven are not still
on the fingers of Dwarves and that one of them was taken in Dol
Guldur it seems unlikely that two different things were meant by
the term 'gathered'... if the Seven were actually physically
retrieved (as we know they were) then it seems the same is being
claimed of the Nine.

> Instead of looking for evidence of ownership, it is valuable to
> know the interrelationship of the rings:
>  - Galadriel had a ring.  She did not want its whereabouts known
> because Sauron could control it.

This doesn't follow.  Sauron could not control Galadriel's Ring
without the One... and she stated that if he regained the One he
would instantly know about her Ring.  As such, Galadriel's Ring had
nothing to do with Sauron being able to control it... I'd suspect
the actual reason might have more to do with fear that he might
attempt to capture it by physical force.

> Recall that when Sauron made the One, the other elves removed
> their rings.  Without those rings, he couldn't control them.
> Thus, the rings must be a tool for control (meaning that Sauron
> couldn't hold them, but that they had to be on fingers to be
> effective)

IF Sauron had the One.  He could control the other Rings IF he had
the One... which at the time in question he did not.  He was thus
unable to control the other Rings... unless he actually had them.

> - Recall that after Gollum lost the ring he aged and that he had
> an incredible lust for the ring (the same goes for Frodo or Bilbo
> when they were separated from it).  Would not the same apply to
> the nine?  Wouldn't the Nazgul eventually die after not wearing
> the ring (the ring imparts everlasting life to the wearer, but
> there is ample evidence to suggest that without the ring, the
> nine would have died).

Actually, the texts indicate that after sufficient exposure a
human would fade and become a wraith forever - even if not wearing
the Ring.  I don't think there is any indication that the Nazgul
would die without their Rings... and there are clear statements in
the draft materials for LotR that Tolkien considered having Sauron
return the Nine rings to the Nazgul at various times - implicitly
showing that he (when he wrote that) did not consider the Nazgul
to have been wearing them / to have needed them for survival.

> While I grant that the lust for the ring could have been used to
> influence the Nazgul, such influence would have had to be general
> as Sauron would have been unable to directly communicate with the
> nine.

We see various examples of the Nazgul needing to confer with each
other or using messengers to communicate with each other or Sauron
himself.  If (as is sometimes speculated) the Rings allowed
'communication' this would not be necessary if the Nazgul were
wearing the Nine.

> Seems like this issue would have been resolved already.

There are people who are 'convinced' on either side... you seem
convinced that they must have been wearing them.  I am convinced
that Tolkien's final intent was that they were not (for the reasons
cited above and many others).

> Also, BTY, have you guys ever found a resolution to the great
> Balrog bunny slippers debate?  I personally go in for the idea
> that they do indeed wear bunny slippers...

An oft debated point.  Personally I believe that the slippers were
a 'visual metaphor' that the Fellowship perceived due to the great
powers of suggestion of the Balrog.

######

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Conrad Dunkerson <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:Z8hX5.8115$Ei1.577249@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> Actually, the texts indicate that after sufficient exposure a
> human would fade and become a wraith forever - even if not wearing
> the Ring.

No, they don't:

"A mortal, Frodo, who keeps on of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does
not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every
minute is a weariness."

Then:

"And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he /fades/: he
becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under
the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings."

Just "keeping" the ring will prevent a human from dying, but one has to
*wear* the ring often in order to become permanently invisible. cf. what
Gandalf says about Gollum a bit later:

"For it was long since he had worn it much: in the black darkness it was
seldom needed. Certainly he had never 'faded'. He is thin and tough still."

--
Androg

"Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncuthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescene land,
eardgeard elfa, and esa bliss."

######

From: the softrat <softrat@pobox.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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On 05 Dec 2000 18:38:04 GMT, gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) wrote:

>Just for clarification, are you suggesting that Sauron could control the Nazgul
>simply by possessing their Rings?  It doesn't quite seem logical to me that the
>Nazgul would be under such complete control if the Rings were locked up in a
>chest in the Barad-dur somewhere.  Or are you suggesting that he actually wore
>the Rings, and controlled them that way.  I suppose this is possible, but it
>also seems a bit strange to me.  
>
It is amazing tht you think that you know how the magic worked in
Middle-earth better than JRR Tolkien. Isn't that just a tad arrogant?
Or are you normally so omniscient that you expect to understand
everything according to *your* rules of logic?

Give us and our banwidth a break. Shut up!

the softrat
mailto:softrat@pobox.com
--
If somebody's gonna stab me in the back, I wanna be there.

######

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On Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:34:12 +1100, "Androg" <androg at mail dot com>
wrote:

>Just "keeping" the ring will prevent a human from dying, but one has to
>*wear* the ring often in order to become permanently invisible. cf. what
>Gandalf says about Gollum a bit later:

Sheer sophistical nonsense! Did mommy and daddy want you to be a
lawyer when you grew up? When are you gonna grow up anyway?

the softrat
mailto:softrat@pobox.com
--
"If you ever reach total enlightenment while you're drinking a beer,
I bet it makes beer shoot out your nose."
--Jack Handy

######

From: Hallaril <hallaril@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: 6 Dec 2000 11:59:45 GMT
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30169

Conrad Dunkerson <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

snip
> To state it directly;
> Gollum's will was enslaved to the One
> Frodo could therefor command Gollum while he held the One

> The Nazguls' wills were enslaved to the Nine
> Sauron could therefor command them while he held the Nine
> The One controlled the Nine
> Sauron could therefor also command the Nazgul while he held the One


> All seems reasonable to me and consistent with JRRT's statements
> on the matter.

I could't agree with you more. But how did Sauron get the nine?
Nazguk were probably wearing them at the end of the second age.
If they were all killed, it must have been a hard job to find and fetch
them personally. And as you said he could not have given that task to
anybody else, because he did not have the one and therefore could not
prevent anybody using them and stealing them. And for the same reason,
if the Nazgul survived they might not have willingly given their
preciouses to Sauron. 

Now there is one other thing. Would the elves have used the nine 
had they gotten hold of them? And had they used the rings, would the
rings have had ill effects on them. To this my answer is: yes they would
have used them and no harm would have followed, as long as the one ring
was lost to all. What do you think?

Hallaril


-- 

######

From: Hallaril <hallaril@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: 6 Dec 2000 12:06:50 GMT
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Androg <androg at mail dot com> wrote:
> Conrad Dunkerson <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:Z8hX5.8115$Ei1.577249@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>>
>> Actually, the texts indicate that after sufficient exposure a
>> human would fade and become a wraith forever - even if not wearing
>> the Ring.

> No, they don't:

> "A mortal, Frodo, who keeps on of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does
> not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every
> minute is a weariness."

> Then:

> "And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he /fades/: he
> becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under
> the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings."

> Just "keeping" the ring will prevent a human from dying, but one has to
> *wear* the ring often in order to become permanently invisible. cf. what
> Gandalf says about Gollum a bit later:

But they did wear the nine rings for almost 2000 years in the second
age. At that time there would have been no need for Sauron to personally
posses them, as he already had the one through which to exert 100%
control.

Hallaril

######

From: "Androg" <androg at mail dot com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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the softrat <softrat@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:2cjr2t4u2j8eb3ngrfc7irq48r8jabnh91@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 6 Dec 2000 15:34:12 +1100, "Androg" <androg at mail dot com>
> wrote:
>
> >Just "keeping" the ring will prevent a human from dying, but one has to
> >*wear* the ring often in order to become permanently invisible. cf. what
> >Gandalf says about Gollum a bit later:
>
> Sheer sophistical nonsense! Did mommy and daddy want you to be a
> lawyer when you grew up? When are you gonna grow up anyway?
>
> the softrat

???? I am befuddled.

--
Andróg

"Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncúthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescéne land,
eardgeard elfa, and ésa bliss."

######

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Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Quoth "Androg" <androg at mail dot com> in article
<3a2e2fd9$1@casper.southcom.com.au>: 
> the softrat <softrat@pobox.com> wrote:
> > Sheer sophistical nonsense!

> ???? I am befuddled.

At the risk of causing trouble myself, don't be.  It looks to me like
softrat is having a bit of a bad day.
						Steuard Jensen

######

From: jaaguke@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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In article <c1.2c.2YRmVn$21n@rhino_house.attglobal.net>,
  skylar@attglobal.net (Skylar Thompson) wrote:
> In <90am7o$914$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, Hallaril
<hallaril@hotmail.com> writes:
> >Skylar Thompson <skylar@attglobal.net> wrote:
> >> In <3A27EBBB.256C8C51@helsinki.fi>, Tamim
<tamim.khawaja@helsinki.fi> writes:
> >
> >>>But when he did not have the ring he couldn't control the bearers
of the
> >>>Three. I know that the Nine were different because he had a part in
> >>>their making. So I can understand that he could have put somekind
of a
> >>>curse on the rings so that he could control their bearers even when
he
> >>>didn't have the ring.
> >
> >> I thought the Nine (and the Seven, for that matter) were made
> >> by the Elves, and were gathered by Sauron in his attack on Eregion.
> >
> >They were, but S helped as annatar--
>
> But Annatar only gave the Elven-smiths the information they needed
> to forge the Rings. Surely the Elves would have directions which
> would put a curse on the Rings.

Thus after taking Eriador, Sauron had powerful Rings that controlled
none.
He had to get someone to wear them to get any slaves.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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I agree with you that there is not enough on which to assess how the
rings worked.  However, I am too lazy to go looking for snippets of
Tolkien to support my claims either (it is finals time after all).  

Now, I may be mistaken that Gandalf or anyone else ever said that, but I
am pretty sure that they did or something like it.  I think that it was
in reference to Gollum's appearance...

I guess what it boils down to is this: why would Sauron want to hold the
nine rings?  Certainly not to add power to himself, these rings were far
weaker than the one.

Also, why is it that Frodo could have controlled the nine if Sauron held
the nine rings?  There is a quandary for you...

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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m, but only through the one ring.
> 
> Could Frodo control the Nine with the One? If not, perhaps the Nazgul
> know their true master (after all, they know the true mastery of the
> Ring).
>


Yes, if he had the will to do so.  The Nazgul responded to whoever
controlled the One.  Frodo never controlled the One, however (nor did
anyone else for that matter)
 
> --
> Skylar Thompson,
> eMail: skylar@attglobal.net
> 
> `All that is gold does not glitter/Not all who wander are lost
> The old that is strong does not wither/Deep roots are not reached by
> the frost
> From the ashes a fire shall be woken/A light from the shadows shall
> spring
> Renewed shall be blade that was broken/The crownless again shall be
> king.'

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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Hallaril wrote:
> 
> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> 
> >>
> 
> > ??  What?  That paragraph is completely illogical, especially in light
> > of my statement.  I am saying that the Nazgul held the rings that Sauron
> > gave to them.  Of course Sauron could only control the wearers of the
> > other rings while wearing the one.  That is a priori.  What you just
> > said is basically a restatement of what I just said above.
> 
> No, it was not illogical. The fact that Sauron could not control
> Galadriel without the one ring, does implicate that he could not control
> the Nazgul either. The nine were made by elves, not by sauron, although
> he helped. They were not made to be controlled by Sauron.
> On the other hand they were not made to be worn by mortals, so that is
> why the Nazgul were so greatly affected by them. Sauron made the One
> ring for mainly one reason: to be able to control the wearers of the
> other rings. He wanted it back for this reason.
> 
> So what I am trying to say is that the only way Sauron could control the
> Nazgul without the one was to posses the nine personally.

Okay.  I think that it was his strength in personality and the fact that
he was the only one who could control the One that led the Nine to
follow him, not his wearing their rings...

> 
> Hallaril
> 
> --

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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??  The One left an indelible imprint upon Gollum's being.  That was why
Frodo could control Gollum: they were joined by the bonds that only the
ring wearers had (remember that only Frodo could see the ring on
Galadriel's finger...).  Also, Gollum retained a will of his own because
he WASN'T wearing a ring and because Frodo had far less commanding power
than Sauron.  If Sauron had put on the one, then I would put good money
on it that Frodo and Gollum would have been the first ones on their
knees simply because they would be bound to him by the power of the
One.  

GaiusMax wrote:
> 
>    Has anyone considered the case of Frodo and Gollum as a possible parallel
> here?  Through his possession of the Ring, Frodo was able to command Gollum
> pretty effectively, which could serve as a parallel to Sauron holding the Nine
> Rings and using them to control the Nazgul.  True, Gollum retained a will of
> his own, and was even able to betray Frodo, but this could be explained by the
> fact that a) Gollum was less under the control of the Ring then the Nazgul were
> of theirs, both due to being a Hobbit and not having possessed it as long, and
> b) Frodo was inherently far less powerful and commanding than Sauron, even
> after Sauron lost the Ring.  It should also be noted that Gollum was unable to
> violate the letter of his promise to Frodo.  He was only able to betray him by
> exploiting a loophole, a mistake which I'm sure Sauron would not have made.  I
> had thought previously that the Nazgul held the Nine themselves, but this
> parallel has convinced me that Sauron could hold the Nine and still control the
> Nazgul effectively.
> 
> Gaius Maximus

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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> > True, Gollum retained a will of his own, and was even able to
> > betray Frodo, but this could be explained by the fact that a)
> > Gollum was less under the control of the Ring then the Nazgul
> > were of theirs, both due to being a Hobbit and not having
> > possessed it as long, and b) Frodo was inherently far less
> > powerful and commanding than Sauron, even after Sauron lost the
> > Ring.
> 
> I think the fact that Gollum never faded allowed him a greater
> degree of self-will than the Nazgul enjoyed, but even they retained
> enough sense of self that Tolkien described them as having fear,
> amusement, and other emotions.  Sauron's control was so great that
> they could not act against him, but they still existed as
> individual entities.

Or, as seems far more likely, what allowed them personalities was the
fact that Sauron didn't have the One to control them with.  He could
control them, but not completely until he had the One.

> 
> > I had thought previously that the Nazgul held the Nine
> > themselves, but this parallel has convinced me that Sauron could
> > hold the Nine and still control the Nazgul effectively.
> 
> To state it directly;
> Gollum's will was enslaved to the One
> Frodo could therefor command Gollum while he held the One
> 
> The Nazguls' wills were enslaved to the Nine
> Sauron could therefor command them while he held the Nine
> The One controlled the Nine
> Sauron could therefor also command the Nazgul while he held the One

Then why not ditch the Nine, needless duplication of a perfectly good
Ring?

######

From: Hallaril <hallaril@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: 6 Dec 2000 21:12:16 GMT
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Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> I agree with you that there is not enough on which to assess how the
> rings worked.  However, I am too lazy to go looking for snippets of
> Tolkien to support my claims either (it is finals time after all).  

It is the independance day of Finladn O You ignorant.

snip
> I guess what it boils down to is this: why would Sauron want to hold the
> nine rings?  Certainly not to add power to himself, these rings were far
> weaker than the one.

I have explained my view on this several times. 
Simply to control the Nazgul, who were slaves to their own rings only.

> Also, why is it that Frodo could have controlled the nine if Sauron held
> the nine rings?  There is a quandary for you...

He could not have, unless he mastered the One, that he never did.
And why could he control them if he had mastered the one?
Simply because the Nine rings were totally under the one and the Nazgul
were slaves t the nine.
Similarly he could control gollum, and gollum did not wear any ring.

I think we have missed one crusial point here:
The witch king was a mighty sorcerer and quite independant apparently.
He could run a kingdom without the presence of his master after all.
Now, we all know that Sauron trusted the Nazgul completely.
He trusted that when they found the one, they would bring it to him
without hesitation. 

The queestion is, why would The witch King bring the One to Sauron.
He could have brobably mastered the ring quite soon and as a sorcerer of
quite much power he could have claimed it as his own and become the new
dark lord. 

I thik the only plausible explanation is that Sauron held the witch
king's ring, who being totally enslaved by his own ring would have
obeyed even if he had the one ring.

If he had his own ring he could have simply put the One to another
finger. 

I don't think Sauron would have been able to stop him.

And another thing.

Sauron made the One ring. It was his and its power came from his
essence. And it was evil. The nine were made by elves.
If Sauron could not control the wearer of the one, how could he control
the wearer of any of the nine? The answer is he couldn't, not without
the one ring. It was made for this purpose. So the only way he could
control the Nazgul was by holding their rings as hostiges.

Hallaril

######

From: "Durin VII" <a_fred_B@hotmail.com>
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"Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
news:3A2D75A6.31A6A9B5@dana.ucc.nau.edu...
>
>
> ??  In any event, with or without the ring, Sauron was much more
> powerful than Gandalf or the nine...  That would disconfirm your claim.

Not so. Sauron wasn't just fighting Gandalf, but the entire free world (at
least eventually). He wanted his ring back to help him and It was more
powerful than the 9. I think until he got the one back, he would utilize all
the rings he had.

######

From: Hallaril <hallaril@hotmail.com>
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Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:



> Then why not ditch the Nine, needless duplication of a perfectly good
> Ring?

Becouse the Nazgul were enslaved by the nine. He could not control the
Nazgul even with the one unless they had the nine. Or unless he had the
nine. If the nine were destroyed the Nazgul would also die.

Hallaril 

######

From: "Durin VII" <a_fred_B@hotmail.com>
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"Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
news:3A2EA0A4.D7D3D03F@dana.ucc.nau.edu...
> I agree with you that there is not enough on which to assess how the
> rings worked.  However, I am too lazy to go looking for snippets of
> Tolkien to support my claims either (it is finals time after all).
>
> Now, I may be mistaken that Gandalf or anyone else ever said that, but I
> am pretty sure that they did or something like it.  I think that it was
> in reference to Gollum's appearance...
>
> I guess what it boils down to is this: why would Sauron want to hold the
> nine rings?  Certainly not to add power to himself, these rings were far
> weaker than the one.

Since he didn't have the one I think he would want to have the 9. If I was
going to was and I had a gun, I'd still want a knife, especially if I lost
the gun.
>
> Also, why is it that Frodo could have controlled the nine if Sauron held
> the nine rings?  There is a quandary for you...

Good question. IMHO, with the one, Frodo could controll the nine rings, no
matter who's posession the were in. If the nine rings controlled the nazgul,
Frodo controlled the nazgul. Although you question would seem to rule out
the idea that Sauron was just using threats withholding the 9.

######

From: "Durin VII" <a_fred_B@hotmail.com>
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"Androg" <androg at mail dot com> wrote in message
news:3a2dc23a@casper.southcom.com.au...
<snip>
> "And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he /fades/: he
> becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under
> the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings."

I take this As JRRT's opinion of what happened to the Nazgul.

> Just "keeping" the ring will prevent a human from dying, but one has to
> *wear* the ring often in order to become permanently invisible. cf. what
> Gandalf says about Gollum a bit later:
>
> "For it was long since he had worn it much: in the black darkness it was
> seldom needed. Certainly he had never 'faded'. He is thin and tough
still."
>
> --
> Androg
>
> "Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncuthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescene land,
> eardgeard elfa, and esa bliss."
>
>
>
>

######

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From: gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax)
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>
>Good question. IMHO, with the one, Frodo could controll the nine rings, no
>matter who's posession the were in. If the nine rings controlled the nazgul,
>Frodo controlled the nazgul. Although you question would seem to rule out
>the idea that Sauron was just using threats withholding the 9.

If he controlled the Nazgul, why didn't he order them to back off at
Weathertop, and why didn't they listen to him when he told them to go back to
Mordor at the Fords?

Gaius Maximus

######

From: Hallaril <hallaril@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Hallaril <hallaril@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:



>> Then why not ditch the Nine, needless duplication of a perfectly good
>> Ring?

> Becouse the Nazgul were enslaved by the nine. He could not control the
> Nazgul even with the one unless they had the nine. Or unless he had the
> nine. If the nine were destroyed the Nazgul would also die.

> Hallaril 

Sorry I was in a bit of a hurry. Hope you got the meaning, though ;)

-- 

######

From: Hallaril <hallaril@hotmail.com>
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Durin VII <a_fred_B@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
> news:3A2D75A6.31A6A9B5@dana.ucc.nau.edu...
>>
>>
>> ??  In any event, with or without the ring, Sauron was much more
>> powerful than Gandalf or the nine...  That would disconfirm your claim.

> Not so. Sauron wasn't just fighting Gandalf, but the entire free world (at
> least eventually). He wanted his ring back to help him and It was more
> powerful than the 9. I think until he got the one back, he would utilize all
> the rings he had.

Are you seriously saying that he wore the nine? And the remaining
'dwarven' rings? I mean that would even look rediculous.
I think he kept them in a drawer.
Hallaril

-- 

######

From: Hallaril <hallaril@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: 6 Dec 2000 22:15:20 GMT
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GaiusMax <gaiusmax@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>Good question. IMHO, with the one, Frodo could controll the nine rings, no
>>matter who's posession the were in. If the nine rings controlled the nazgul,
>>Frodo controlled the nazgul. Although you question would seem to rule out
>>the idea that Sauron was just using threats withholding the 9.

> If he controlled the Nazgul, why didn't he order them to back off at
> Weathertop, and why didn't they listen to him when he told them to go back to
> Mordor at the Fords?

Because he didn't know how to use the One. It needed a more powerful
person like Gandal or Galadriel and even they needed time to master it.
Not that they ever could totally control the one. Only Gorthaur could do
that.

Hallaril

-- 

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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So then: what benefit would the nine have for Sauron?  They weren't made
for him.

Durin VII wrote:
> 
> "Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
> news:3A2D75A6.31A6A9B5@dana.ucc.nau.edu...
> >
> >
> > ??  In any event, with or without the ring, Sauron was much more
> > powerful than Gandalf or the nine...  That would disconfirm your claim.
> 
> Not so. Sauron wasn't just fighting Gandalf, but the entire free world (at
> least eventually). He wanted his ring back to help him and It was more
> powerful than the 9. I think until he got the one back, he would utilize all
> the rings he had.

######

From: "Durin VII" <a_fred_B@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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"GaiusMax" <gaiusmax@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001206165409.18180.00009093@ng-fi1.aol.com...
> >
> >Good question. IMHO, with the one, Frodo could controll the nine rings,
no
> >matter who's posession the were in. If the nine rings controlled the
nazgul,
> >Frodo controlled the nazgul. Although you question would seem to rule out
> >the idea that Sauron was just using threats withholding the 9.
>
> If he controlled the Nazgul, why didn't he order them to back off at
> Weathertop, and why didn't they listen to him when he told them to go back
to
> Mordor at the Fords?

When I said Frodo could control the Nazgul I ment that he could if he knew
how to use the ring in full, which he did not. I was speaking
hypothetically.

>
> Gaius Maximus

######

From: stephen@nomail.msu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Hallaril <hallaril@hotmail.com> wrote:
: Durin VII <a_fred_B@hotmail.com> wrote:
:> "Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
:> news:3A2D75A6.31A6A9B5@dana.ucc.nau.edu...
:>>
:>>
:>> ??  In any event, with or without the ring, Sauron was much more
:>> powerful than Gandalf or the nine...  That would disconfirm your claim.

:> Not so. Sauron wasn't just fighting Gandalf, but the entire free world (at
:> least eventually). He wanted his ring back to help him and It was more
:> powerful than the 9. I think until he got the one back, he would utilize all
:> the rings he had.

: Are you seriously saying that he wore the nine? And the remaining
: 'dwarven' rings? I mean that would even look rediculous.
: I think he kept them in a drawer.
: Hallaril

I doubt Sauron worried about looking ridiculous. :)  Even if he
did, who was going to tell him he looked ridiculous?  I have visions
of "Evil" from Time Bandits discussing things with his minions.

Stephen

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Hallaril wrote:
> 
> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> > I agree with you that there is not enough on which to assess how the
> > rings worked.  However, I am too lazy to go looking for snippets of
> > Tolkien to support my claims either (it is finals time after all).
> 
> It is the independance day of Finladn O You ignorant.
At least I spell properly...

> He could not have, unless he mastered the One, that he never did.
> And why could he control them if he had mastered the one?
> Simply because the Nine rings were totally under the one and the Nazgul
> were slaves t the nine.
> Similarly he could control gollum, and gollum did not wear any ring.

And, as stated earlier, he controlled Gollum because of Gollum's lust
for the ring and because of its imprint on him, which could go either
way.

> 
> I think we have missed one crusial point here:
> The witch king was a mighty sorcerer and quite independant apparently.
> He could run a kingdom without the presence of his master after all.
> Now, we all know that Sauron trusted the Nazgul completely.
> He trusted that when they found the one, they would bring it to him
> without hesitation.

He trusted them??  There is no evidence for this.  I would actually tend
to think that he ordered them to and because his strength of will was so
much stronger than theirs, they would have no choice but to obey.  The
Witch King was clearly less powerful than Sauron (or he would have
overthrown him long ago, ring or no: which raises an interesting point.
You are arguing that their lust for their own rings kept them in
Sauron's thrawl. Yet isn't it true that Gollum worked to overthrow
Frodo? Given that, doesn't that mean that the Witch King would have
worked to overthrow Sauron CONSTANTLY RING OR NO? Moreover, since the
lust of the rings would have kept the Nine in thrawl, doesn't that mean
that they ALL would have worked to overthrow Sauron? Methinks your
argument just fell completely apart because of an internal
contradiction)

> 
> The queestion is, why would The witch King bring the One to Sauron.
> He could have brobably mastered the ring quite soon and as a sorcerer of
> quite much power he could have claimed it as his own and become the new
> dark lord.
> 
> I thik the only plausible explanation is that Sauron held the witch
> king's ring, who being totally enslaved by his own ring would have
> obeyed even if he had the one ring.

See note above regarding this point...Your position is internally
contradictory.

> 
> If he had his own ring he could have simply put the One to another
> finger.
> 
> I don't think Sauron would have been able to stop him.
> 
> And another thing.
> 
> Sauron made the One ring. It was his and its power came from his
> essence. And it was evil. The nine were made by elves.
> If Sauron could not control the wearer of the one, how could he control
> the wearer of any of the nine? The answer is he couldn't, not without
> the one ring. It was made for this purpose. So the only way he could
> control the Nazgul was by holding their rings as hostiges.

And for anyone else to control the One required that they MASTER the
ring, which was only done by Sauron.

> 
> Hallaril

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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Durin VII wrote:
> 
> "Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
> news:3A2EA0A4.D7D3D03F@dana.ucc.nau.edu...
> > I agree with you that there is not enough on which to assess how the
> > rings worked.  However, I am too lazy to go looking for snippets of
> > Tolkien to support my claims either (it is finals time after all).
> >
> > Now, I may be mistaken that Gandalf or anyone else ever said that, but I
> > am pretty sure that they did or something like it.  I think that it was
> > in reference to Gollum's appearance...
> >
> > I guess what it boils down to is this: why would Sauron want to hold the
> > nine rings?  Certainly not to add power to himself, these rings were far
> > weaker than the one.
> 
> Since he didn't have the one I think he would want to have the 9. If I was
> going to was and I had a gun, I'd still want a knife, especially if I lost
> the gun.

The analogy isn't the same.  Sauron already had the power of the nine
rings (whatever they were) so why would he need to duplicate it?  It
isn't guns and knives.  It is like having a 20 oz can of mace and a 5 oz
can of mace...

> >
> > Also, why is it that Frodo could have controlled the nine if Sauron held
> > the nine rings?  There is a quandary for you...
> 
> Good question. IMHO, with the one, Frodo could controll the nine rings, no
> matter who's posession the were in. If the nine rings controlled the nazgul,
> Frodo controlled the nazgul. Although you question would seem to rule out
> the idea that Sauron was just using threats withholding the 9.

Yes, but if Sauron was wearing the nine rings??  How could Frodo
conceivably control the Nazgul??  Not through Sauron surely...

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Off your current rebuttal: I am assuming that you concede that
personality existed because no one had control of the One?

So which are you arguing here: the nazgul have the Nine or Sauron has
the nine?  Sounds like you are arguing the former.

Hallaril wrote:
> 
> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> 
> > Then why not ditch the Nine, needless duplication of a perfectly good
> > Ring?
> 
> Becouse the Nazgul were enslaved by the nine. He could not control the
> Nazgul even with the one unless they had the nine. Or unless he had the
> nine. If the nine were destroyed the Nazgul would also die.
> 
> Hallaril

######

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>Because he didn't know how to use the One. It needed a more powerful
>person like Gandal or Galadriel and even they needed time to master it.
>Not that they ever could totally control the one. Only Gorthaur could do
>that.

I know.    I was looking for clarification by trying to see if something
different was being suggested, which it apparently was not.

Gaius Maximus

######

From: Hallaril <hallaril@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> Off your current rebuttal: I am assuming that you concede that
> personality existed because no one had control of the One?

I am not so sure about that. Let us say that if Sauron had the one 
and if the Nazgul at the same time wore their rings, Sauron could if
willing to do so, totally control their every action.

> So which are you arguing here: the nazgul have the Nine or Sauron has
> the nine?  Sounds like you are arguing the former.
I was not arguing anything. Just mentioning few points.
Sauron had the nine in the third age but the Nazgul had the during the
second age. You might want to see my other posts for reasons why this is
my view.

hallaril

######

From: Hallaril <hallaril@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> So then: what benefit would the nine have for Sauron?  They weren't made
> for him.

My say on the subject is that the only benefit would be their value as
hostages. But one has to remeber that they were not made for men either.

hallaril

######

From: Hallaril <hallaril@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:


> Hallaril wrote:
>> 
>> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
>> > I agree with you that there is not enough on which to assess how the
>> > rings worked.  However, I am too lazy to go looking for snippets of
>> > Tolkien to support my claims either (it is finals time after all).
>> 
>> It is the independance day of Finladn O You ignorant.

> At least I spell properly...

You are not a Finn. We can't spell. This was a typo but I have for a long
time spelled 'Finnish' as Finish.

>> He could not have, unless he mastered the One, that he never did.
>> And why could he control them if he had mastered the one?
>> Simply because the Nine rings were totally under the one and the Nazgul
>> were slaves t the nine.
>> Similarly he could control gollum, and gollum did not wear any ring.

> And, as stated earlier, he controlled Gollum because of Gollum's lust
> for the ring and because of its imprint on him, which could go either
> way.

But when Gollum had the One, nobody could control him.
Same situation with the Nazgul and their rings.

>> 
>> I think we have missed one crusial point here:
>> The witch king was a mighty sorcerer and quite independant apparently.
>> He could run a kingdom without the presence of his master after all.
>> Now, we all know that Sauron trusted the Nazgul completely.
>> He trusted that when they found the one, they would bring it to him
>> without hesitation.

> He trusted them??  There is no evidence for this.

Yes. They were seeking for the ring for him. That is trusting.

>  I would actually tend
> to think that he ordered them to and because his strength of will was so
> much stronger than theirs, they would have no choice but to obey.

With the one ring on his hand and the nine on theirs I would agree.
But without that kind of a special situation, NO.
He could not even control Gollum when the latter had the ring.
Morgoth could not control Hurin....
He could not control any being he wanted, not Gandalf not Galadriel not
even Saruman. And not Frodo.  He could control the Nazgul because he had
their rings. If Gollum could use the ring without being controlled by
Sauron, why couldn't the ultimately more powerful WK do so?

>  The
> Witch King was clearly less powerful than Sauron 

Yes but so was Galadriel also. Yet she might have risen against him if
she had the ring. 

(or he would have
> overthrown him long ago, ring or no

No, not while Sauron had either the One to control all the others or
while Sauron had WK's ring.


: which raises an interesting point.
> You are arguing that their lust for their own rings kept them in
> Sauron's thrawl. Yet isn't it true that Gollum worked to overthrow
> Frodo? 

Gollum could have physically overthrown Frodo. WK could not have done
the Same to Sauron. at least not without the ONE.


Given that, doesn't that mean that the Witch King would have
> worked to overthrow Sauron CONSTANTLY RING OR NO? Moreover, since the
> lust of the rings would have kept the Nine in thrawl, doesn't that mean
> that they ALL would have worked to overthrow Sauron? Methinks your
> argument just fell completely apart because of an internal
> contradiction)

He would have probably stabbed Sauron with his knife, if given
reasonable chances that it might actually work. There were none.
You will kill a person who has your child as a hostige if you can thus
save your child. This I don't think Sauron would have let happen.

>> The queestion is, why would The witch King bring the One to Sauron.
>> He could have brobably mastered the ring quite soon and as a sorcerer of
>> quite much power he could have claimed it as his own and become the new
>> dark lord.
>> 
>> I thik the only plausible explanation is that Sauron held the witch
>> king's ring, who being totally enslaved by his own ring would have
>> obeyed even if he had the one ring.

> See note above regarding this point...Your position is internally
> contradictory.

See how I cleared that apparent contradiction. now answer to this question.

>> 
>> If he had his own ring he could have simply put the One to another
>> finger.
>> 
>> I don't think Sauron would have been able to stop him.
>> 
>> And another thing.
>> 
>> Sauron made the One ring. It was his and its power came from his
>> essence. And it was evil. The nine were made by elves.
>> If Sauron could not control the wearer of the one, how could he control
>> the wearer of any of the nine? The answer is he couldn't, not without
>> the one ring. It was made for this purpose. So the only way he could
>> control the Nazgul was by holding their rings as hostiges.

> And for anyone else to control the One required that they MASTER the
> ring, which was only done by Sauron.

That is not what I meant, though gandalf or Galadriel or the WK would
have been able to use the ring against Sauron. True mastering could be
done by sauron alone.
What I meant was that if Sauron could not control the person wearing the
one (ie. Gollum) how could he control the persons wearing the nine?

After all he had much closer connection to the one than to the others,
for that alone was made by him.

Hallaril

######

From: "Androg" <androg at mail dot com>
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the softrat <softrat@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:d2jr2tsjdf42g09cqdico9rq3dbimdduhm@4ax.com...
>
> It is amazing tht you think that you know how the magic worked in
> Middle-earth better than JRR Tolkien. Isn't that just a tad arrogant?
> Or are you normally so omniscient that you expect to understand
> everything according to *your* rules of logic?
>
> Give us and our banwidth a break. Shut up!

If you're not interested in the discussion, don't read it.

And if you want to save bandwidth, switch off your modem.

--
Andróg

"Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncúthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescéne land,
eardgeard elfa, and ésa bliss."

######

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Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
news:3A2EBD7F.5F4AE4A@dana.ucc.nau.edu...
>
> You are arguing that their lust for their own rings kept them in
> Sauron's thrawl. Yet isn't it true that Gollum worked to overthrow
> Frodo? Given that, doesn't that mean that the Witch King would have
> worked to overthrow Sauron CONSTANTLY RING OR NO? Moreover, since the
> lust of the rings would have kept the Nine in thrawl, doesn't that mean
> that they ALL would have worked to overthrow Sauron? Methinks your
> argument just fell completely apart because of an internal
> contradiction)

Well, for one thing the Nazgul were far more enslaved to their own rings
than Gollum was to the One. I think the Nazgul were completely enslaved to
their rings:

"A mortal, Frodo, who keeps on of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does
not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every
minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself
invisible, he /fades/: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and
walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings.
Yes, sooner or later--later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with,
but neither strength nor good purpose will last--sooner or later the dark
power will devour him."

Which quote seems to imply that by the time one has faded, one will no
longer have a will of one's own.

--
Andróg

"Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncúthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescéne land,
eardgeard elfa, and ésa bliss."

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Hallaril wrote:
> 
> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> > So then: what benefit would the nine have for Sauron?  They weren't made
> > for him.
> 
> My say on the subject is that the only benefit would be their value as
> hostages. But one has to remeber that they were not made for men either.
> 

Which is in doubt...

> hallaril

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
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"Androg" <androg at mail dot com> wrote in message
news:3a2dc23a@casper.southcom.com.au...

> Just "keeping" the ring will prevent a human from dying, but one
> has to *wear* the ring often in order to become permanently
> invisible.

Hmmm... interesting.  I had thought of the 'life stretching' and
'fading' as related activities, but you seem to suggest that they
were two separate effects caused by two different sorts of usage of
the Rings.  The phrasing of the passages you note is certainly
supportive of this, but it seems strange given Dwarven resistance
to the 'life stretching', 'invisibility' and 'wraith-becoming'
effects of the Rings.  I'd assumed they were resistant to all of
these effects because they were all tied together... and indeed,
there is a passage stating as much;

"For the Dwarves had proved hard to tame.  They were too tough,
being made of a purpose to resist such onslaughts of evil will and
power, and though they could be slain or broken they could not be
made into shadows or slaves of any other will; and for like reason
their lives were little affected, to live either longer or shorter
because of the Ring."
PoME, The Making of Appendix A

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Hallaril wrote:
> 
> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> 
> > Hallaril wrote:
> >>
> >> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> >> > I agree with you that there is not enough on which to assess how the
> >> > rings worked.  However, I am too lazy to go looking for snippets of
> >> > Tolkien to support my claims either (it is finals time after all).
> >>
> >> It is the independance day of Finladn O You ignorant.
> 
> > At least I spell properly...
> 
> You are not a Finn. We can't spell. This was a typo but I have for a long
> time spelled 'Finnish' as Finish.
> 
> >> He could not have, unless he mastered the One, that he never did.
> >> And why could he control them if he had mastered the one?
> >> Simply because the Nine rings were totally under the one and the Nazgul
> >> were slaves t the nine.
> >> Similarly he could control gollum, and gollum did not wear any ring.
> 
> > And, as stated earlier, he controlled Gollum because of Gollum's lust
> > for the ring and because of its imprint on him, which could go either
> > way.
> 
> But when Gollum had the One, nobody could control him.
> Same situation with the Nazgul and their rings.

??  How do we know that?  Frodo could not control Sauron when he wore
the ring, but Sauron (and even the Nine) could control him.

> 
> >>
> >> I think we have missed one crusial point here:
> >> The witch king was a mighty sorcerer and quite independant apparently.
> >> He could run a kingdom without the presence of his master after all.
> >> Now, we all know that Sauron trusted the Nazgul completely.
> >> He trusted that when they found the one, they would bring it to him
> >> without hesitation.
> 
> > He trusted them??  There is no evidence for this.
> 
> Yes. They were seeking for the ring for him. That is trusting.

??  I would tend to say that was because they were ordered to, not out
of a sense of kindness...

> 
> >  I would actually tend
> > to think that he ordered them to and because his strength of will was so
> > much stronger than theirs, they would have no choice but to obey.
> 
> With the one ring on his hand and the nine on theirs I would agree.
> But without that kind of a special situation, NO.
> He could not even control Gollum when the latter had the ring.
> Morgoth could not control Hurin....
> He could not control any being he wanted, not Gandalf not Galadriel not
> even Saruman. And not Frodo.  He could control the Nazgul because he had
> their rings. If Gollum could use the ring without being controlled by
> Sauron, why couldn't the ultimately more powerful WK do so?

As stated above (and shown in the first book) it was possible for the
Nine to control one who wore the One.  That is because no one really
knew how to use the One...

> 
> >  The
> > Witch King was clearly less powerful than Sauron
> 
> Yes but so was Galadriel also. Yet she might have risen against him if
> she had the ring.

If she had the ring, if...

> 
> (or he would have
> > overthrown him long ago, ring or no
> 
> No, not while Sauron had either the One to control all the others or
> while Sauron had WK's ring.
> 
> : which raises an interesting point.
> > You are arguing that their lust for their own rings kept them in
> > Sauron's thrawl. Yet isn't it true that Gollum worked to overthrow
> > Frodo?
> 
> Gollum could have physically overthrown Frodo. WK could not have done
> the Same to Sauron. at least not without the ONE.

??  You just got through saying that the WK was very powerful. Then it
was said earlier that Sauron was not as powerful without the ring.  I am
sorry, but until someone attaches some sort of objective measure of
power we are both correct.  There is no evidence to suggest, that if we
buy your idea, that the WK could not have overthrown Sauron.  At least
with my position there is the clear distinction between them: there
would have been no inherent desire on the part of the Nine to overthrow
Sauron...

> 
> Given that, doesn't that mean that the Witch King would have
> > worked to overthrow Sauron CONSTANTLY RING OR NO? Moreover, since the
> > lust of the rings would have kept the Nine in thrawl, doesn't that mean
> > that they ALL would have worked to overthrow Sauron? Methinks your
> > argument just fell completely apart because of an internal
> > contradiction)
> 
> He would have probably stabbed Sauron with his knife, if given
> reasonable chances that it might actually work. There were none.
> You will kill a person who has your child as a hostige if you can thus
> save your child. This I don't think Sauron would have let happen.
> 
> >> The queestion is, why would The witch King bring the One to Sauron.
> >> He could have brobably mastered the ring quite soon and as a sorcerer of
> >> quite much power he could have claimed it as his own and become the new
> >> dark lord.
> >>
> >> I thik the only plausible explanation is that Sauron held the witch
> >> king's ring, who being totally enslaved by his own ring would have
> >> obeyed even if he had the one ring.
> 
> > See note above regarding this point...Your position is internally
> > contradictory.
> 
> See how I cleared that apparent contradiction. now answer to this question.

You didn't clear it up at all.  All you said was that the Nine would
lose.  That was answering my analysis with an assertion, hardly
effective in turning my point...

> 
> >>
> >> If he had his own ring he could have simply put the One to another
> >> finger.
> >>
> >> I don't think Sauron would have been able to stop him.
> >>
> >> And another thing.
> >>
> >> Sauron made the One ring. It was his and its power came from his
> >> essence. And it was evil. The nine were made by elves.
> >> If Sauron could not control the wearer of the one, how could he control
> >> the wearer of any of the nine? The answer is he couldn't, not without
> >> the one ring. It was made for this purpose. So the only way he could
> >> control the Nazgul was by holding their rings as hostiges.
> 
> > And for anyone else to control the One required that they MASTER the
> > ring, which was only done by Sauron.
> 
> That is not what I meant, though gandalf or Galadriel or the WK would
> have been able to use the ring against Sauron. True mastering could be
> done by sauron alone.
> What I meant was that if Sauron could not control the person wearing the
> one (ie. Gollum) how could he control the persons wearing the nine?

He could control the persons wearing the One, the Nazgul could too...

> 
> After all he had much closer connection to the one than to the others,
> for that alone was made by him.
> 
> Hallaril

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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Androg wrote:
> 
> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
> news:3A2EBD7F.5F4AE4A@dana.ucc.nau.edu...
> >
> > You are arguing that their lust for their own rings kept them in
> > Sauron's thrawl. Yet isn't it true that Gollum worked to overthrow
> > Frodo? Given that, doesn't that mean that the Witch King would have
> > worked to overthrow Sauron CONSTANTLY RING OR NO? Moreover, since the
> > lust of the rings would have kept the Nine in thrawl, doesn't that mean
> > that they ALL would have worked to overthrow Sauron? Methinks your
> > argument just fell completely apart because of an internal
> > contradiction)
> 
> Well, for one thing the Nazgul were far more enslaved to their own rings
> than Gollum was to the One. I think the Nazgul were completely enslaved to
> their rings:
> 
> "A mortal, Frodo, who keeps on of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does
> not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every
> minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself
> invisible, he /fades/: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and
> walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings.
> Yes, sooner or later--later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with,
> but neither strength nor good purpose will last--sooner or later the dark
> power will devour him."
> 
> Which quote seems to imply that by the time one has faded, one will no
> longer have a will of one's own.

Ah, but we do not know if what the status of their wills was...

> 
> --
> Andróg
> 
> "Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncúthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescéne land,
> eardgeard elfa, and ésa bliss."

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 18:02:54 -0700
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Hallaril wrote:
> 
> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> > Off your current rebuttal: I am assuming that you concede that
> > personality existed because no one had control of the One?
> 
> I am not so sure about that. Let us say that if Sauron had the one
> and if the Nazgul at the same time wore their rings, Sauron could if
> willing to do so, totally control their every action.
> 
> > So which are you arguing here: the nazgul have the Nine or Sauron has
> > the nine?  Sounds like you are arguing the former.
> I was not arguing anything. Just mentioning few points.
> Sauron had the nine in the third age but the Nazgul had the during the
> second age. You might want to see my other posts for reasons why this is
> my view.

Yes, and as I noted earlier I think that this position is internally
contradictory...

> 
> hallaril

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
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"Hallaril" <hallaril@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:90l9nh$hrr$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...

> But how did Sauron get the nine?

An oft pondered question.  There is a text indicating that the
Nazgul fled into the East when Sauron fell at the end of the Second
Age.  However, this could have been in an 'embodied' or 'ghostly'
state... we don't know enough about them to be sure.  It is
possible that they were unable to take the Rings with them or that
Sauron had already recovered the Rings and had them somewhere in
safe keeping.  Alternatively he could have overpowered the Nazgul
and taken the Rings from them by force or possibly even tracked
them down and forced them to surrender the Rings to him by power of
Will.

> Now there is one other thing. Would the elves have used the nine
> had they gotten hold of them? And had they used the rings, would
> the rings have had ill effects on them. To this my answer is: yes
> they would have used them and no harm would have followed, as
> long as the one ring was lost to all. What do you think?

I think the Elves would have refrained from using the Nine because
they had become perilous;

"And all those rings that he [Sauron] governed he perverted, the
more easily since he had a part in their making, and they were
accursed, and they betrayed in the end all those that used them."
Silm, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

In similar vein there are various passages relating to the 'curse'
of the Ring of the house of Durin... which continued to operate
even though Sauron had lost the One.  As such I think that when
Sauron captured the Sixteen he was able to 'corrupt' them so that
they would always be dangerous to use.

######

From: tar_elenion@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 01:47:24 GMT
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30197

In article <3A2EDF33.5DB3AE01@dana.ucc.nau.edu>,
  Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
>
>
> Hallaril wrote:
> >
> > Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> > > So then: what benefit would the nine have for Sauron?  They
weren't made
> > > for him.
> >
> > My say on the subject is that the only benefit would be their value
as
> > hostages. But one has to remeber that they were not made for men
either.
> >
>
> Which is in doubt...
>
> > hallaril
>

I doubt how? The Eldar made the Rings for themselves for their own
motives (attempting to slow down or stop the effects of change and
decay). Sauron's aid in this was an attempt to be able to control the
Elves through those Rings. The Elves did not intend on giving them to
others (possible exception for Durin's Ring, though that is a tradition
of Durin's Folk). They in fact kept the Rings very secret.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: tar_elenion@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 01:47:40 GMT
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30199

In article <3A2EDF33.5DB3AE01@dana.ucc.nau.edu>,
  Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
>
>
> Hallaril wrote:
> >
> > Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> > > So then: what benefit would the nine have for Sauron?  They
weren't made
> > > for him.
> >
> > My say on the subject is that the only benefit would be their value
as
> > hostages. But one has to remeber that they were not made for men
either.
> >
>
> Which is in doubt...
>
> > hallaril
>

I doubt how? The Eldar made the Rings for themselves for their own
motives (attempting to slow down or stop the effects of change and
decay). Sauron's aid in this was an attempt to be able to control the
Elves through those Rings. The Elves did not intend on giving them to
others (possible exception for Durin's Ring, though that is a tradition
of Durin's Folk). They in fact kept the Rings very secret.

Tar-Elenion


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
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"Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
news:3A2EA0A4.D7D3D03F@dana.ucc.nau.edu...

> I guess what it boils down to is this: why would Sauron want to
> hold the nine rings?  Certainly not to add power to himself,
> these rings were far weaker than the one.

Which... he didn't have.

> Also, why is it that Frodo could have controlled the nine if
> Sauron held the nine rings?  There is a quandary for you...

He couldn't.  Indeed, the letter which addresses this issue
explicitly says that Sauron retained control of the Nazgul;

"...they [the Nazgul] would have obeyed or feigned to obey any
minor commands of his [Frodo's] that did not interfere with their
errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine
rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills."
Letters #246

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
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"Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
news:3A2EBB5C.C55788BE@dana.ucc.nau.edu...

> So then: what benefit would the nine have for Sauron?  They
> weren't made for him.

Weren't they?  So Sauron's motives in teaching the Elves to make
the Rings really WERE altruistic?

The Elves may not have thought the Rings were made for Sauron, but
Middle-Earth history proved them wrong.

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
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"Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
news:3A2EBE15.9701C7E2@dana.ucc.nau.edu...

> The analogy isn't the same.  Sauron already had the power of the
> nine rings (whatever they were) so why would he need to duplicate
> it?  It isn't guns and knives.  It is like having a 20 oz can of
> mace and a 5 oz can of mace...

And what you seem to be suggesting is that the 5 oz can is
worthless once you have held the 20 oz can... even if you don't
happen to have it at the moment.  Which plainly makes no more sense
than Sauron not using the Nine because the One (which he didn't
have) was more powerful.

> Yes, but if Sauron was wearing the nine rings??  How could Frodo
> conceivably control the Nazgul??  Not through Sauron surely...

He couldn't.  That's the point.  If he had been able to master the
One (effectively taking ownership of it away from Sauron) then he
could indeed have controlled Sauron through the Nine and the Nazgul
through Sauron... but obviously Frodo was nowhere near that
powerful.

######

From: "Androg" <androg at mail dot com>
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Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
news:3A2EE141.80EC6168@dana.ucc.nau.edu...
>
> As stated above (and shown in the first book) it was possible for the
> Nine to control one who wore the One.  That is because no one really
> knew how to use the One...

The Nazgul could not control the wearer of the One. They could influence
him, but so could others (see Frodo's feeling about putting on the ring in
the Inn)

--
Andróg

"Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncúthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescéne land,
eardgeard elfa, and ésa bliss."

######

From: "Androg" <androg at mail dot com>
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Conrad Dunkerson <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:dICX5.9391$Ei1.645549@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
>
> He couldn't.  Indeed, the letter which addresses this issue
> explicitly says that Sauron retained control of the Nazgul;
>
> "...they [the Nazgul] would have obeyed or feigned to obey any
> minor commands of his [Frodo's] that did not interfere with their
> errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine
> rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills."
> Letters #246

I was just waiting for someone to quote that letter.

--
Androg

"Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncuthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescene land,
eardgeard elfa, and esa bliss."

######

From: "Androg" <androg at mail dot com>
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Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Conrad Dunkerson <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:KbBX5.9253$Ei1.637179@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> "Androg" <androg at mail dot com> wrote in message
> news:3a2dc23a@casper.southcom.com.au...
>
> > Just "keeping" the ring will prevent a human from dying, but one
> > has to *wear* the ring often in order to become permanently
> > invisible.
>
> Hmmm... interesting.  I had thought of the 'life stretching' and
> 'fading' as related activities, but you seem to suggest that they
> were two separate effects caused by two different sorts of usage of
> the Rings.  The phrasing of the passages you note is certainly
> supportive of this, but it seems strange given Dwarven resistance
> to the 'life stretching', 'invisibility' and 'wraith-becoming'
> effects of the Rings.  I'd assumed they were resistant to all of
> these effects because they were all tied together... and indeed,
> there is a passage stating as much;
>
> "For the Dwarves had proved hard to tame.  They were too tough,
> being made of a purpose to resist such onslaughts of evil will and
> power, and though they could be slain or broken they could not be
> made into shadows or slaves of any other will; and for like reason
> their lives were little affected, to live either longer or shorter
> because of the Ring."
> PoME, The Making of Appendix A

Well, the two effects can not be tied together: the Elven-ring would also
have conferred long life on a mortal, but not invisibility: the invisibility
was a property only of the Rings of which Sauron had a part in the making.

--
Androg

"Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncuthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescene land,
eardgeard elfa, and esa bliss."

######

From: Hallaril <hallaril@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:


> Hallaril wrote:
>> > way.
>> 
>> But when Gollum had the One, nobody could control him.
>> Same situation with the Nazgul and their rings.

> ??  How do we know that?  Frodo could not control Sauron when he wore
> the ring, but Sauron (and even the Nine) could control him.

we know it because Gollum did not bring the one ring to Sauron.
The one had the ability to corrupt everybody who wore it and all 
of them wanted it for themselves.


>> 
>> Yes. They were seeking for the ring for him. That is trusting.

> ??  I would tend to say that was because they were ordered to, not out
> of a sense of kindness...

Sauron Trusted them follow his orders, nobody else would have willingly
brought the One back if they understood what it was. Not even the good
guys parted with it willingly. And the more powerful or evil you were
the faster the Ring became precious to you. Even the hobbits had
difficulties with parting with the One.



>> 
>> With the one ring on his hand and the nine on theirs I would agree.
>> But without that kind of a special situation, NO.
>> He could not even control Gollum when the latter had the ring.
>> Morgoth could not control Hurin....
>> He could not control any being he wanted, not Gandalf not Galadriel not
>> even Saruman. And not Frodo.  He could control the Nazgul because he had
>> their rings. If Gollum could use the ring without being controlled by
>> Sauron, why couldn't the ultimately more powerful WK do so?

> As stated above (and shown in the first book) it was possible for the
> Nine to control one who wore the One.  That is because no one really
> knew how to use the One...

They saw him. He was weak. And it was not because he had the one but
inspite of it, for he had not yet learned to use it nor declared it as
his own. They could influence him because he had the shard of the morgul
knife in him, not because of the ring.


>> 
>> >  The
>> > Witch King was clearly less powerful than Sauron
>> 
>> Yes but so was Galadriel also. Yet she might have risen against him if
>> she had the ring.

> If she had the ring, if...

Yes we are Now discussing about the possibilyty of the WK finding the
ring. If Galadriel might have succumbed to the prospect of becoming the
new dark lord, why not him.

>> > Frodo?
>> 
>> Gollum could have physically overthrown Frodo. WK could not have done
>> the Same to Sauron. at least not without the ONE.

> ??  You just got through saying that the WK was very powerful. Then it
> was said earlier that Sauron was not as powerful without the ring.  I am
> sorry, but until someone attaches some sort of objective measure of
> power we are both correct.  There is no evidence to suggest, that if we
> buy your idea, that the WK could not have overthrown Sauron.


No there is no direct evidence. It seems clear to me that Sauron 
was much more powerful than the WK even with the ring.
And going back to the hostige theme, if somebody had that Woodo puppet
on you, you would kill him if he was unaware. On the other hand you
would not openly go against him. Gollum didn't openly go against Frodo
either. But Frodo could exercise considerable power on Gollum when they 
were opnly facing eachother. I don't think Sauron ever let WK behind his back.

  At least
> with my position there is the clear distinction between them: there
> would have been no inherent desire on the part of the Nine to overthrow
> Sauron...

Yes the big question is why? Why would they be controlled by Sauron to
the extent that they would bring the One back if they found it?
Because Sauron was mentally more powerful than the Nazgul?
to add to your knowledge, Sauron was more powerful than everybody else
in ME except maybe Tom and Maglor. Yet nobody other could be trusted to
bring the One to Sauron, or to give it to anybody. Everybody wanted it
for themselves.


>> > See note above regarding this point...Your position is internally
>> > contradictory.
>> 
>> See how I cleared that apparent contradiction. now answer to this question.

> You didn't clear it up at all.  All you said was that the Nine would
> lose.  That was answering my analysis with an assertion, hardly
> effective in turning my point...

Well how about now. 




> He could control the persons wearing the One, the Nazgul could too...


NONONONO. If that were the case Sauron would have had nothing to fear.
The Nazgul could control only those stabbed by their knives.

######

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Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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> "Androg" <androg at mail dot com> wrote:
> > Just "keeping" the ring will prevent a human from dying, but one
> > has to *wear* the ring often in order to become permanently
> > invisible.

Quoth "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net> in article
<KbBX5.9253$Ei1.637179@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>: 
> I had thought of the 'life stretching' and 'fading' as related
> activities, but you seem to suggest that they were two separate
> effects caused by two different sorts of usage of the Rings.

I've held a very similar opinion on this, but as you say, the evidence
cited here does point toward a distinction.  The life-lengthening and
fading processes may be related, but the evidence cited here suggests
that they were in the end independent effects.  I don't think that
this is impossible to explain or understand, and in my brief thoughts
on the question so far it doesn't seem terribly inconsistent with my
earlier notions of how the Rings work... but it will certainly take
some time to resolve the issue. :)

> ...it seems strange given Dwarven resistance to the 'life
> stretching', 'invisibility' and 'wraith-becoming' effects of the
> Rings.  I'd assumed they were resistant to all of these effects
> because they were all tied together...

[Your PoME quote:]
> "For the Dwarves... were too tough, being made of a purpose to
> resist such onslaughts of evil will and power... they could not be
> made into shadows or slaves of any other will; and for like reason
> their lives were little affected..."

I don't think this is such a strong constraint: all that we can really
conclude is that the mechanisms or sources of these effects were
similar, not necessarily that they were different aspects or degrees
of the same process.  In fact, it could be argued that the Dwarves'
resistance was to all effects of the "Morgoth element" in Middle-earth
("evil will and power"), and that the Rings operated by using that
power.  I'm not sure that this is the interpretation that I favor, but
it certainly makes the independence of the fading and life-lengthening
processes more reasonable.
						Steuard Jensen

######

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> Conrad Dunkerson <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > ...it seems strange given Dwarven resistance to the 'life
> > stretching', 'invisibility' and 'wraith-becoming' effects of the
> > Rings.  I'd assumed they were resistant to all of these effects
> > because they were all tied together...

> > "...they could not be made into shadows or slaves of any other
> > will" [From PoME]

First, one more comment on Conrad's article that I forgot about in my
previous post: is there any direct evidence that the Dwarves would not
become invisible when wearing the Rings?  As I see it, the "shadows"
reference in the above quote from PoME could in principle refer only
to the process of becoming a wraith, rather than to temoprary
invisibility.

Quoth "Androg" <androg at mail dot com> in article
<3a2f33b5$1@casper.southcom.com.au>:
> ...the Elven-ring would also have conferred long life on a mortal,
> but not invisibility: the invisibility was a property only of the
> Rings of which Sauron had a part in the making.

What's your source on this?  I've certainly heard it argued before,
but I don't know of any clear evidence supporting the claim.  At the
very least, I'm quite sure that we never see or hear about a mortal
actually wearing one of the Elven Rings.  The fact that Galadriel
remained visible while wearing hers might reflect a difference between
Elves and humans, or it might reflect some greater control that she
had over the effects of her Ring.  (Before this exchange, when I did
tend to see a close connection between invisibility and
life-lengthening, I wondered if the wearers of the Three used their
mastery of their Rings to "spread out" the invisibility that would
naturally focus only on them, and in so doing slow decay for everyone
and everything around them... in particular, throughout Lorien and
Rivendell.  I think there may still be a way to make this connection
work... but I still haven't had time to research and write that essay
on the Rings that I've been planning for years. :) )

						Steuard Jensen

######

From: "O. Sharp" <ohh@speakeasy.org>
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Uhm... Steuard Jensen <sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote...:

: [...] wearing one of the Elven Rings.  The fact that Galadriel
: remained visible while wearing hers might reflect a difference between
: Elves and humans, or it might reflect some greater control that she
: had over the effects of her Ring.

Uhm... her remaining visible might have had a much simpler reason, though. 
_Letters_, #131:

"The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings,
almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation
of beauty: they did not confer invisibility."

The invisibility aspect was only given to those Rings that Sauron tinkered
with, it seems; the paragraph before the one quoted notes that some powers
of the other Rings were "more directly derived from Sauron . . . such as
rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible
world visible." Since Sauron never got to sully the Three, however, they
didn't get Annatar's Free Invisibility Bonus Powers (tm).

It's interesting to note that the same letter states that the chief power
of _all_ the Rings was the prevention of decay and preservation of what is
desired or loved - "or its _semblance_", the letter specifies (emphasis
mine). Which makes the life-stretching aspects of the Ring make a certain
ironic, Sauron-cruel sense: if a mortal who loves life wears one, the
Ring might preserve his long and happy life for many years... or the
_semblance_ of a long and happy life(!), which might seem nice to
outsiders but in fact make one feel "all thin, sort of _stretched_... like
butter that has been scraped over too much bread" (Bilbo, _Fellowship_ p.
41 hardback - and he ought to know!).

But does this mean that "fading" is brought on by the life-stretching
aspect of the Rings, or is it a different mechanism at work? Sadly, I
don't think there's enough evidence to tell. Dammit, if Gandalf hadn't
burned that brochure we might have all been able to tell.  :)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
ohh@speakeasy.org   Rereading that last sentence, I realize the E-Text is
                    going to add yet _another_ level of complications to
                    choosing canonical sources.  :)

######

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>They saw him. He was weak. And it was not because he had the one but
>inspite of it, for he had not yet learned to use it nor declared it as
>his own. They could influence him because he had the shard of the morgul
>knife in him, not because of the ring.

But Frodo was influenced to put on the Ring three times when he did not have
the knife-shard in him.  In the Shire, on Weathertop, (where he actually
succumbs), and at the Crossroads in Ithilien.  In this last case, it is
explicitly stated that his hand is moving not of his own volition, but because
of an outside influence.

Gaius Maximus

######

From: Tamim <tamim.khawaja@helsinki.fi>
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GaiusMax wrote:
> 
> >They saw him. He was weak. And it was not because he had the one but
> >inspite of it, for he had not yet learned to use it nor declared it as
> >his own. They could influence him because he had the shard of the morgul
> >knife in him, not because of the ring.
> 
> But Frodo was influenced to put on the Ring three times when he did not have
> the knife-shard in him.  In the Shire, on Weathertop, (where he actually
> succumbs), and at the Crossroads in Ithilien.  In this last case, it is
> explicitly stated that his hand is moving not of his own volition, but because
> of an outside influence.

It was not the Nazgul commanding. It was his own dependance and lust
towards the ring. That is it was the semi-sentient ring Giving
suggestions.

hallaril

######

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Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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>
>It was not the Nazgul commanding. It was his own dependance and lust
>towards the ring. That is it was the semi-sentient ring Giving
>suggestions.

Perhaps so, but it is obviously triggered by the presence of the Nazgul in some
way.

Gaius Maximus

######

From: Tamim <tamim.khawaja@helsinki.fi>
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Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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GaiusMax wrote:
> 
> >
> >It was not the Nazgul commanding. It was his own dependance and lust
> >towards the ring. That is it was the semi-sentient ring Giving
> >suggestions.
> 
> Perhaps so, but it is obviously triggered by the presence of the Nazgul in some
> way.


Obviously. Frodo wanted to hide or fight back, he was scared. So he was
more vulnerable to the power of the ring. The ring could protect him he
thought. Also the ring wanted to go back to Sauron. But the last power
of the ring was never stronger than the will of the current keeper. His
will to keep the ring for himself.

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 13:11:51 -0700
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30342

No, the idea that the rings are used to keep hostages...

tar_elenion@my-deja.com wrote:
> 
> In article <3A2EDF33.5DB3AE01@dana.ucc.nau.edu>,
>   Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hallaril wrote:
> > >
> > > Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> > > > So then: what benefit would the nine have for Sauron?  They
> weren't made
> > > > for him.
> > >
> > > My say on the subject is that the only benefit would be their value
> as
> > > hostages. But one has to remeber that they were not made for men
> either.
> > >
> >
> > Which is in doubt...
> >
> > > hallaril
> >
> 
> I doubt how? The Eldar made the Rings for themselves for their own
> motives (attempting to slow down or stop the effects of change and
> decay). Sauron's aid in this was an attempt to be able to control the
> Elves through those Rings. The Elves did not intend on giving them to
> others (possible exception for Durin's Ring, though that is a tradition
> of Durin's Folk). They in fact kept the Rings very secret.
> 
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 13:12:22 -0700
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Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
> 
> "Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
> news:3A2EBB5C.C55788BE@dana.ucc.nau.edu...
> 
> > So then: what benefit would the nine have for Sauron?  They
> > weren't made for him.
> 
> Weren't they?  So Sauron's motives in teaching the Elves to make
> the Rings really WERE altruistic?
> 
> The Elves may not have thought the Rings were made for Sauron, but
> Middle-Earth history proved them wrong.

The elves taught Sauron how to make the rings, not vice versa.

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Androg wrote:
> 
> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
> news:3A2EE141.80EC6168@dana.ucc.nau.edu...
> >
> > As stated above (and shown in the first book) it was possible for the
> > Nine to control one who wore the One.  That is because no one really
> > knew how to use the One...
> 
> The Nazgul could not control the wearer of the One. They could influence
> him, but so could others (see Frodo's feeling about putting on the ring in
> the Inn)

Okay, I will go ahead and concede that.  However, that means that for
those of you who are arguing that Sauron held the Nine, the same applies
there: Sauron could only INFLUENCE the Nazgul.  Unfortunately, if you
consider that, then that pretty much means that the Nine could (and
would) have revolted against Sauron for the Nine.  Thus, Sauron either
would have had to destroy them (too unruly) or be destroyed himself.  I
am sorry, but this position that is being forwarded on Sauron holding
the Nine is just too contradictory for me to buy into.

> 
> --
> Andróg
> 
> "Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncúthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescéne land,
> eardgeard elfa, and ésa bliss."

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Hallaril wrote:
> 
> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> 
> > Hallaril wrote:
> >> > way.
> >>
> >> But when Gollum had the One, nobody could control him.
> >> Same situation with the Nazgul and their rings.
> 
> > ??  How do we know that?  Frodo could not control Sauron when he wore
> > the ring, but Sauron (and even the Nine) could control him.
> 
> we know it because Gollum did not bring the one ring to Sauron.
> The one had the ability to corrupt everybody who wore it and all
> of them wanted it for themselves.

Show me where the WK wanted the ring for himself...Also, when Gollum had
the ring, Sauron was not yet exerting his full will to have them bring
the ring to him.  Also, Frodo was influenced by Sauron and the Nine to
wear the ring...

> 
> >>
> >> Yes. They were seeking for the ring for him. That is trusting.
> 
> > ??  I would tend to say that was because they were ordered to, not out
> > of a sense of kindness...
> 
> Sauron Trusted them follow his orders, nobody else would have willingly
> brought the One back if they understood what it was. Not even the good
> guys parted with it willingly. And the more powerful or evil you were
> the faster the Ring became precious to you. Even the hobbits had
> difficulties with parting with the One.

??  So you want me to believe that nine really evil guys under Sauron's
dominion were worthy of Sauron's trust to return the ring to him?  Come
on, Sauron wouldn't have been that stupid...I can't believe that you are
actually believing your own argument.  Especially since trust is based
on something akin to friendship?  That is like saying that Stalin
trusted people to not kill him...I am not going to argue this further,
your point is ludicrous.

> 
> >>
> >> With the one ring on his hand and the nine on theirs I would agree.
> >> But without that kind of a special situation, NO.
> >> He could not even control Gollum when the latter had the ring.
> >> Morgoth could not control Hurin....
> >> He could not control any being he wanted, not Gandalf not Galadriel not
> >> even Saruman. And not Frodo.  He could control the Nazgul because he had
> >> their rings. If Gollum could use the ring without being controlled by
> >> Sauron, why couldn't the ultimately more powerful WK do so?
> 
> > As stated above (and shown in the first book) it was possible for the
> > Nine to control one who wore the One.  That is because no one really
> > knew how to use the One...
> 
> They saw him. He was weak. And it was not because he had the one but
> inspite of it, for he had not yet learned to use it nor declared it as
> his own. They could influence him because he had the shard of the morgul
> knife in him, not because of the ring.

Pre-knife they could.  Also, Frodo was not as great in power as they
were, so it wouldn't have mattered if he had claimed it.

> 
> >>
> >> >  The
> >> > Witch King was clearly less powerful than Sauron
> >>
> >> Yes but so was Galadriel also. Yet she might have risen against him if
> >> she had the ring.
> 
> > If she had the ring, if...
> 
> Yes we are Now discussing about the possibilyty of the WK finding the
> ring. If Galadriel might have succumbed to the prospect of becoming the
> new dark lord, why not him.

No, we are not, because the WK would not have risen against Sauron
because he had his own ring.  

> 
> >> > Frodo?
> >>
> >> Gollum could have physically overthrown Frodo. WK could not have done
> >> the Same to Sauron. at least not without the ONE.
> 
> > ??  You just got through saying that the WK was very powerful. Then it
> > was said earlier that Sauron was not as powerful without the ring.  I am
> > sorry, but until someone attaches some sort of objective measure of
> > power we are both correct.  There is no evidence to suggest, that if we
> > buy your idea, that the WK could not have overthrown Sauron.
> 
> No there is no direct evidence. It seems clear to me that Sauron
> was much more powerful than the WK even with the ring.
> And going back to the hostige theme, if somebody had that Woodo puppet
> on you, you would kill him if he was unaware. On the other hand you
> would not openly go against him. Gollum didn't openly go against Frodo
> either. But Frodo could exercise considerable power on Gollum when they
> were opnly facing eachother. I don't think Sauron ever let WK behind his back.

There goes the internally contradictory part of your case again!!  If
Sauron didn't "trust" the WK, then why would he trust him to bring back
the ring?  And don't give me that line about how the WK couldn't
overthrow Sauron: because he presumably knows Sauron's strength, then he
would also know that that would be the most advantageous time to do it. 
He would want his own ring back, right?  I'm sorry again, but at least
my position is internally consistent...

> 
>   At least
> > with my position there is the clear distinction between them: there
> > would have been no inherent desire on the part of the Nine to overthrow
> > Sauron...
> 
> Yes the big question is why? Why would they be controlled by Sauron to
> the extent that they would bring the One back if they found it?

Why not?

> Because Sauron was mentally more powerful than the Nazgul?
> to add to your knowledge, Sauron was more powerful than everybody else
> in ME except maybe Tom and Maglor. Yet nobody other could be trusted to
> bring the One to Sauron, or to give it to anybody. Everybody wanted it
> for themselves.

Not if they were ordered to bring it to him...You are presuming that
there was an element of trust in their relationship, I am recognizing
that there wasn't any.  Again, my position on this issue is consistent,
yours is internally contradictory...

> 
> >> > See note above regarding this point...Your position is internally
> >> > contradictory.
> >>
> >> See how I cleared that apparent contradiction. now answer to this question.
> 
> > You didn't clear it up at all.  All you said was that the Nine would
> > lose.  That was answering my analysis with an assertion, hardly
> > effective in turning my point...
> 
> Well how about now.

:) You just reinforced that it is internally contradictory...

> 
> > He could control the persons wearing the One, the Nazgul could too...
> 
> NONONONO. If that were the case Sauron would have had nothing to fear.
> The Nazgul could control only those stabbed by their knives.

Sauron didn't have anything to fear from his servants or the Nazgul. 
Again, your position is internally contradicotry.  You are assuming that
Sauron had something to fear from his servants.  That begs the question
of why would he trust them then?  Yet, you maintain that he trusted his
own servants.  That is completely illogical...

######

From: Tamim <tamim.khawaja@helsinki.fi>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 22:49:47 +0200
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Michael Keith Vogler wrote:

> The elves taught Sauron how to make the rings, not vice versa.



It was a two way thing, he taught them and they taught him.
Why do you think he was called Annatar?     

"Therefore they hearkened to Sauron, and they learned of him many
things, for his knowledge was great. In those days the smiths of
Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took
thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labours,
and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond
upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance."


"But he, finding that he was betrayed and that the Elves were not
deceived, was filled with wrath; and he came against them with open war,
demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him, since the
Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore
and counsel. But the Elves fled from him; and three of their rings they
saved, and bore them away, and hid them."

######

From: Skylar Thompson <skylar@attglobal.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

On 12-08-00, 00:11:47, "Conrad Dunkerson"=20
<conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net> wrote regarding Re: Nazgul didn't=20=

have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?:


> "Androg" <androg at mail dot com> wrote in message
> news:3a2f33b5$1@casper.southcom.com.au...

> > Well, the two effects can not be tied together: the Elven-ring
> > would also have conferred long life on a mortal, but not
> > invisibility: the invisibility was a property only of the Rings
> > of which Sauron had a part in the making.

> I agree on the invisibility, but actually I had assumed that the
> Elven-rings in fact would likely NOT have extended the lifespan of
> a mortal.  The argument against this which comes to mind is the
> 'process of elimination' in determining which Ring Bilbo's was...
> if the Three did not extend lifespan that should have disqualified
> Bilbo's from being one of those immediately.  However, the same is
> equally true of invisibility (Bilbo's Ring did it... the Three did
> not) yet the Three were always ruled out because their locations
> were known.

> It is possible that the 'life extending' was just a side effect of
> the 'preservation' aspect which was the central purpose of all the
> Rings, but I'd always thought of it as a deliberate 'curse' put in
> place by Sauron.

The Elvish Rings of Power also had a gemstone set in it (Narya of=20
Ruby, Vilya of Saphire, and Narya of Adamant, IIRC), whereas the=20
Ruling Ring was just a gold ring (in appearance, of course).

######

From: "Durin VII" <a_fred_B@hotmail.com>
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"Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
news:3A2EBB5C.C55788BE@dana.ucc.nau.edu...
> So then: what benefit would the nine have for Sauron?  They weren't made
> for him.

Who were they made for? They worked for anyone who know how to use them.
Sauron made them, I think he could use them pretty effectively, atleast as
effectively as for men.

######

From: stephen@nomail.msu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
: So then: what benefit would the nine have for Sauron?  They weren't made
: for him.

The Nine, like the Seven and the Three, were Rings of Power.  I think
it is safe to assume that the Nine would give Sauron Power.

Stephen

######

From: Tamim <tamim.khawaja@helsinki.fi>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Michael Keith Vogler wrote:
> 
giant snip
> 
> Sauron didn't have anything to fear from his servants or the Nazgul.
> Again, your position is internally contradicotry.  You are assuming that
> Sauron had something to fear from his servants.  That begs the question
> of why would he trust them then?  Yet, you maintain that he trusted his
> own servants.  That is completely illogical...

I am getting a bit tired of saying the same thing over and over again.
You are apparently not paying any attention.

Sauron trusted the WK and others to bring back the ring for one reason
only:
because Sauron had their rings.

If he didn't I simply can see no reason why they would bring the ring
back.
You are saying that this was because he could control them because of
his greater mental power.
As I have said before he was more powerful than anybody else in ME
(except for TOM)
yet he could not hope that somebody else would willingly part with the
ring.

Hallaril

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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reference?

Tamim wrote:
> 
> Michael Keith Vogler wrote:
> 
> > The elves taught Sauron how to make the rings, not vice versa.
> 
> It was a two way thing, he taught them and they taught him.
> Why do you think he was called Annatar?
> 
> "Therefore they hearkened to Sauron, and they learned of him many
> things, for his knowledge was great. In those days the smiths of
> Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took
> thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labours,
> and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond
> upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance."
> 
> "But he, finding that he was betrayed and that the Elves were not
> deceived, was filled with wrath; and he came against them with open war,
> demanding that all the rings should be delivered to him, since the
> Elven-smiths could not have attained to their making without his lore
> and counsel. But the Elves fled from him; and three of their rings they
> saved, and bore them away, and hid them."

######

From: Tamim <tamim.khawaja@helsinki.fi>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Durin VII wrote:

> 
> Who were they made for?

The elves.

 They worked for anyone who know how to use them.
> Sauron made them,

No he didn't. Elves made them, Sauron helped.
snip

Halaril

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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It is safe to assume?  How would they give Sauron power?  This needs to
be enumerated.

stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote:
> 
> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> : So then: what benefit would the nine have for Sauron?  They weren't made
> : for him.
> 
> The Nine, like the Seven and the Three, were Rings of Power.  I think
> it is safe to assume that the Nine would give Sauron Power.
> 
> Stephen

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Tamim wrote:
> 
> GaiusMax wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >It was not the Nazgul commanding. It was his own dependance and lust
> > >towards the ring. That is it was the semi-sentient ring Giving
> > >suggestions.
> >
> > Perhaps so, but it is obviously triggered by the presence of the Nazgul in some
> > way.
> 
> Obviously. Frodo wanted to hide or fight back, he was scared. So he was
> more vulnerable to the power of the ring. 

And proof of this is where?

The ring could protect him he
> thought. Also the ring wanted to go back to Sauron. But the last power
> of the ring was never stronger than the will of the current keeper. 

Gandalf can be quoted several times as saying that one of the reasons
why Frodo was able to resist the ring was because he was a hobbit, which
makes your assertion only applicable to specific circumstances...

His
> will to keep the ring for himself.

Did he?  Could it not have been his own fear of being discovered that
overrode the desire to put on the ring?  It sounded to me like fear and
logic overrode desire for the ring.  I would tend to think that if he
wanted the ring for himself he would have put it on and commanded the
Nazgul to obey him.  He never did that or considered that, thus I think
your position is discounted.

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
> 
> "Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
> news:3A2EBE15.9701C7E2@dana.ucc.nau.edu...
> 
> > The analogy isn't the same.  Sauron already had the power of the
> > nine rings (whatever they were) so why would he need to duplicate
> > it?  It isn't guns and knives.  It is like having a 20 oz can of
> > mace and a 5 oz can of mace...
> 
> And what you seem to be suggesting is that the 5 oz can is
> worthless once you have held the 20 oz can... even if you don't
> happen to have it at the moment.  Which plainly makes no more sense
> than Sauron not using the Nine because the One (which he didn't
> have) was more powerful.
> 

Whatever, my point still stands.

> > Yes, but if Sauron was wearing the nine rings??  How could Frodo
> > conceivably control the Nazgul??  Not through Sauron surely...
> 
> He couldn't.  That's the point.  If he had been able to master the
> One (effectively taking ownership of it away from Sauron) then he
> could indeed have controlled Sauron through the Nine and the Nazgul
> through Sauron... but obviously Frodo was nowhere near that
> powerful.

I am talking about a hypothetical.  And you are giving a very round
about way for control to be done.  I tend to think that the simpler
explanation (and the more intuitive, based on LOTR) is far superior.  If
you care to challenge this, please read below on my posts regarding the
internal inconsistency regarding your position.

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
> 
> "Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
> news:3A2EA0A4.D7D3D03F@dana.ucc.nau.edu...
> 
> > I guess what it boils down to is this: why would Sauron want to
> > hold the nine rings?  Certainly not to add power to himself,
> > these rings were far weaker than the one.
> 
> Which... he didn't have.
> 
> > Also, why is it that Frodo could have controlled the nine if
> > Sauron held the nine rings?  There is a quandary for you...
> 
> He couldn't.  Indeed, the letter which addresses this issue
> explicitly says that Sauron retained control of the Nazgul;
> 
> "...they [the Nazgul] would have obeyed or feigned to obey any
> minor commands of his [Frodo's] that did not interfere with their
> errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine
> rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills."
> Letters #246

Two questions:
1) Do you realize that I am saying that Frodo has mastery of the ring?
2) Are you adding in the part "which he held" or was that included in
the original document?

######

From: "Aris Katsaris" <katsaris@otenet.gr>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 01:22:11 +0200
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Hallaril <hallaril@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:90k23j$evd$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
>
> > ??  What?  That paragraph is completely illogical, especially in light
> > of my statement.  I am saying that the Nazgul held the rings that Sauron
> > gave to them.  Of course Sauron could only control the wearers of the
> > other rings while wearing the one.  That is a priori.  What you just
> > said is basically a restatement of what I just said above.
>
> No, it was not illogical. The fact that Sauron could not control
> Galadriel without the one ring, does implicate that he could not control
> the Nazgul either.

The Nazgul had become wraiths. I always got the feelings that once you
become a wraith it doesn't matter if Sauron had the One Ring or not, you
are under his eternal command.

(if Frodo had become a wraith due to the Morgul-knife he'd likewise have
been under the wraiths command)

> The nine were made by elves, not by sauron, although
> he helped. They were not made to be controlled by Sauron.

Sauron corrupted them further after he took them back from the elves. That's
why it's important that he never touched the Three.

Aris Katsaris

######

From: Tamim <tamim.khawaja@helsinki.fi>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Michael Keith Vogler wrote:
> 
> reference?
>
sorry. Silmarillion, Of the rings of power and third age.

######

From: "O. Sharp" <ohh@speakeasy.org>
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote this amongst many
recent thread-entries:

: The elves taught Sauron how to make the rings, not vice versa.

Uhm... that's stated in the _Bakshi_ version, but certainly not in
anything Tolkien wrote, surely? Indeed, from _RotK_ Appendix B, p. 364
hardback, emphasis mine:

   c. 1500 The Elven-smiths _instructed by Sauron_ reach the height of
           their skill. They begin the forging of the Rings of Power.

Or _Sil._ p. 287, "Of The Rings Of Power", emphasis mine:

   [The smiths of Ost-in-Edhil] took thought, and they made Rings of
   Power. But Sauron guided their labours, and was aware of all they
   did...     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

In another article, sir, you indicated that you weren't of a nature to go
looking around for quotes to back up your positions. That's regrettable,
since quotes from Tolkien are the very backbone and currency of ideas in
this newsgroup. :)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
ohh@speakeasy.org   "Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were
                  naturally fully instructed, and in no way deceived as to
                  the real lordship of the Ring.... Would they have been
                  immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument
                  of command and domination?
                    "Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked
                  him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him
                  captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any
                  minor commands of his that did not interfere with their
                  errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through
                  their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of
                  their wills. That errand was to remove Frodo from the
                  Crack. Once he lost the power or opportunity to
                  _destroy_ the Ring, the end could not be in doubt..."
                     -J.R.R. Tolkien, _Letters_ #246 (emphasis his),
                      describing the situation at the Crack of Doom.
                      A reasonably strong indication, I think, that
                      Sauron could control the Nazgul, and also that
                      Sauron held the Nine Rings. I tell you, a
                      little bit of research can go a long way.  :)

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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"Androg" <androg at mail dot com> wrote in message
news:3a2f33b5$1@casper.southcom.com.au...

> Well, the two effects can not be tied together: the Elven-ring
> would also have conferred long life on a mortal, but not
> invisibility: the invisibility was a property only of the Rings
> of which Sauron had a part in the making.

I agree on the invisibility, but actually I had assumed that the
Elven-rings in fact would likely NOT have extended the lifespan of
a mortal.  The argument against this which comes to mind is the
'process of elimination' in determining which Ring Bilbo's was...
if the Three did not extend lifespan that should have disqualified
Bilbo's from being one of those immediately.  However, the same is
equally true of invisibility (Bilbo's Ring did it... the Three did
not) yet the Three were always ruled out because their locations
were known.

It is possible that the 'life extending' was just a side effect of
the 'preservation' aspect which was the central purpose of all the
Rings, but I'd always thought of it as a deliberate 'curse' put in
place by Sauron.

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
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References: <8F9X5.139$x3.2388@uchinews> <20001205133804.17413.00004361@ng-cg1.aol.com> <G%bX5.4014$Sl.206989@iad-read.news.verio.net> <3A2D75A6.31A6A9B5@dana.ucc.nau.edu> <9WxX5.4139$Sl.216470@iad-read.news.verio.net> <3A2EBB5C.C55788BE@dana.ucc.nau.edu> <6OCX5.9399$Ei1.646361@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3A2FEF26.A1A0E41C@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
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"Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
news:3A2FEF26.A1A0E41C@dana.ucc.nau.edu...

> The elves taught Sauron how to make the rings, not vice versa.

As others have noted, there are texts to the contrary... even in
LotR itself Sauron's instruction of the Elves is noted.  The Elves
made the Rings based on information they got from Sauron... which
is why even the Three which Sauron was not directly involved in the
creation of were subject to the control of the One.

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
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"Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
news:3A2FF2E5.3DC69672@dana.ucc.nau.edu...

> Okay, I will go ahead and concede that.  However, that means that
> for those of you who are arguing that Sauron held the Nine, the
> same applies there: Sauron could only INFLUENCE the Nazgul.

Because, as we all know, Sauron wasn't any more powerful / skilled
in controlling others than Frodo was.

######

From: "Androg" <androg at mail dot com>
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Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
news:3A301AB2.3B08BC91@dana.ucc.nau.edu...
>
> Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
> >
> >
> > "...they [the Nazgul] would have obeyed or feigned to obey any
> > minor commands of his [Frodo's] that did not interfere with their
> > errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine
> > rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills."
> > Letters #246
>
> 2) Are you adding in the part "which he held" or was that included in
> the original document?

That was in the original letter.

--
Andróg

"Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncúthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescéne land,
eardgeard elfa, and ésa bliss."

######

From: "Androg" <androg at mail dot com>
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O. Sharp <ohh@speakeasy.org> wrote in message
news:zgQX5.43737$%j3.474334@news6.giganews.com...
>
> But does this mean that "fading" is brought on by the life-stretching
> aspect of the Rings, or is it a different mechanism at work? Sadly, I
> don't think there's enough evidence to tell. Dammit, if Gandalf hadn't
> burned that brochure we might have all been able to tell.  :)

Gandalf was of the opinion that the "fading" was brought about by repeated
usage of the ring to become invisible:

"And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he /fades/: he
becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under
the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings."

I think that the fading is an artefact of Sauron's influence in the rings,
and separate from the life-stretching aspect. Remember that the fragment of
the Morgul-knife that Frodo got in his shoulder also had the tendency to
make him fade:

"They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the
wound. If they had succeeded, you would have becmoe like they are, only
weaker and under their command. You would have become a wraith under the
dominion of the Dark Lord", and "But to the wizard's eye there was a faint
change, just a hint as it were of transparency, about [Frodo]".

Also the fact that by the time he reached the ford, Frodo could see the Nine
clearly, as he could when he was wearing the Ring: obviously by then he was
already partially in the wraith world, or "faded", due to the effects of the
knife.

--
Androg

"Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncuthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescene land,
eardgeard elfa, and esa bliss."

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
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"Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
news:3A301AB2.3B08BC91@dana.ucc.nau.edu...

> Two questions:
> 1) Do you realize that I am saying that Frodo has mastery of the
> ring?

No, I hadn't... and if you are, I disagree, and can quote Tolkien
explicitly stating that Frodo did not.  :)

> 2) Are you adding in the part "which he held" or was that
> included in the original document?

It is in the original.  Since you've now questioned my method of
quotation three times I'll explain that when I place things within
quotation marks (") it is always a direct reproduction of the
original words.  The only things I will 'insert' into quotation
marks are ellipses (...) to show that part of the text has been
omitted, single quotes (') replacing double (") to avoid confusion
on where the quotation ends, or bracketed comments ([])- generally
to provide a clarification of the thing being described by a
pronoun.  Any other text, including anything in parenthesis (()),
comes from the original.  On the rare occasions I've run into
bracketed text within the quotation itself (most commonly when
Christopher has followed the same convention I use and inserted a
comment into his father's text) I have usually quoted it as is or
replaced it with an ellipse if it was not relevant to the issue.
Further note that when I use single quotes independent of a
quotation it is most commonly to delineate a single word or short
phrase and is intended to portray that this is a 'paraphrasing' of
another person's terms and/or that the so punctuated material is
somehow slightly inaccurate though perhaps close enough in
application.

Aren't you glad you asked?  :)

######

From: "Androg" <androg at mail dot com>
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Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Steuard Jensen <sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:2UOX5.79$E3.1561@uchinews...
>
> Quoth "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net> in article
> <KbBX5.9253$Ei1.637179@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>:
>
> > ...it seems strange given Dwarven resistance to the 'life
> > stretching', 'invisibility' and 'wraith-becoming' effects of the
> > Rings.  I'd assumed they were resistant to all of these effects
> > because they were all tied together...
>
> [Your PoME quote:]
> > "For the Dwarves... were too tough, being made of a purpose to
> > resist such onslaughts of evil will and power... they could not be
> > made into shadows or slaves of any other will; and for like reason
> > their lives were little affected..."
>
> I don't think this is such a strong constraint: all that we can really
> conclude is that the mechanisms or sources of these effects were
> similar, not necessarily that they were different aspects or degrees
> of the same process.  In fact, it could be argued that the Dwarves'
> resistance was to all effects of the "Morgoth element" in Middle-earth
> ("evil will and power"), and that the Rings operated by using that
> power.  I'm not sure that this is the interpretation that I favor, but
> it certainly makes the independence of the fading and life-lengthening
> processes more reasonable.
> Steuard Jensen

"The Dwarves indeed proved tough and hard to tame; they ill endure the
domination of others, and the thoughts of their hearts are hard to fathom,
nor can they be turned to shadows. They used their rings only for the
getting of wealth; but wrath and an overmastering greed of gold were kindled
in their hearts, of which evil enough after came to the profit of
Sauron." -- "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age"

"They were made from their beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly
any domination." -- Appendix A

I believe that the "Morgoth element" or whatever you like to call the 'evil
power' of the ring was responsible for the kindling of the "overmastering
greed of gold" -- but the Dwarves' resistance to domination prevented them
from fading and having longer life. One possibility that just came to mind
is that the Dwarves did not gain longer life from their rings not for this
reason, but because they, although mortal, were not the same as Men and
Hobbits as far as the interaction between their fear and hroar went. I think
the reincarnation/rebirth of the Dwarves also indicates some sort of
difference in this regard -- possibly there is some link between the two
points.

--
Androg

"Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncuthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescene land,
eardgeard elfa, and esa bliss."

######

From: stephen@nomail.msu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
: It is safe to assume?  How would they give Sauron power?  This needs to
: be enumerated.

They would give Sauron power the same way they gave anyone else power.
The exact nature of the rings is never described, but they were not
just fancy bits of jewelry.  They possessed real power over the world.

Stephen

######

From: tar_elenion@my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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In article <90pl46$1u99$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
  stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote:
> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> : It is safe to assume?  How would they give Sauron power?  This
needs to
> : be enumerated.
>
> They would give Sauron power the same way they gave anyone else power.
> The exact nature of the rings is never described, but they were not
> just fancy bits of jewelry.  They possessed real power over the world.
>
> Stephen
>

Letter 131 describes the powers of the Rings. The chief power is to
prevent or slow down decay (change), and preserve that which is
desired. All the Rings alike could also enhance the natural powers of
its' possessor. They also had other powers such as 'invisibilty (save
the 3).
Tar-Elenion


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you

######

From: Ermanna <jsolinas@erols.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Androg wrote:
<shnip>
> I think
> the reincarnation/rebirth of the Dwarves also indicates some sort of
> difference in this regard -- possibly there is some link between the two
> points.

Um, wasn't the only Dwarf to be reborn Durin? I thought the others were
gathered in a special hall in Mandos by Aule.

> --
> Androg
> 
> "Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncuthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescene land,
> eardgeard elfa, and esa bliss."

Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight

Elbereth Gilthoniel!

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
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"Steuard Jensen" <sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:F2PX5.80$E3.1607@uchinews...

> First, one more comment on Conrad's article that I forgot about
> in my previous post: is there any direct evidence that the
> Dwarves would not become invisible when wearing the Rings?  As I
> see it, the "shadows" reference in the above quote from PoME
> could in principle refer only to the process of becoming a
> wraith, rather than to temoprary invisibility.

"The dwarves it is said had seven, but nothing could make them
invisible."
RotS, Of Gollum and the Ring

As it comes from a LotR draft this is subject to the standard
'discarded' objections, but, as is often the case, subsequent texts
seem consistent with this passage.  Actually, there is quite alot
about the Rings and their powers in the earlier drafts which can
shed some light on possible reasons for the final conception.  I'll
have to look into putting together a summary (after I finish the
Balrog info I am currently working on again).

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
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"Ermanna" <jsolinas@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3A30E6D5.BC11C268@erols.com...

> Um, wasn't the only Dwarf to be reborn Durin? I thought the
> others were gathered in a special hall in Mandos by Aule.

Most of the texts give the reincarnation effect to each of the
'Seven Fathers' rather than Durin alone.  There isn't anything I
can think of about it being a general dwarvish characteristic
though.  I've speculated in the past that this might be reasonable
and the more common Dwarves just weren't 'recognized' when they
returned, but JRRT never seems to have settled on the details of
even Durin's reincarnation enough to make much of a guess at how
it worked.

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 13:50:16 -0700
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That is what I thought.  Okay, you are right.

Tamim wrote:
> 
> Michael Keith Vogler wrote:
> >
> > reference?
> >
> sorry. Silmarillion, Of the rings of power and third age.

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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True, but when one is an academic who spends all of his time doing that
anyway...Well you get the idea.  

"O. Sharp" wrote:
> 
> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote this amongst many
> recent thread-entries:
> 
> : The elves taught Sauron how to make the rings, not vice versa.
> 
> Uhm... that's stated in the _Bakshi_ version, but certainly not in
> anything Tolkien wrote, surely? Indeed, from _RotK_ Appendix B, p. 364
> hardback, emphasis mine:
> 
>    c. 1500 The Elven-smiths _instructed by Sauron_ reach the height of
>            their skill. They begin the forging of the Rings of Power.
> 
> Or _Sil._ p. 287, "Of The Rings Of Power", emphasis mine:
> 
>    [The smiths of Ost-in-Edhil] took thought, and they made Rings of
>    Power. But Sauron guided their labours, and was aware of all they
>    did...     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> In another article, sir, you indicated that you weren't of a nature to go
> looking around for quotes to back up your positions. That's regrettable,
> since quotes from Tolkien are the very backbone and currency of ideas in
> this newsgroup. :)
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ohh@speakeasy.org   "Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were
>                   naturally fully instructed, and in no way deceived as to
>                   the real lordship of the Ring.... Would they have been
>                   immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument
>                   of command and domination?
>                     "Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked
>                   him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him
>                   captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any
>                   minor commands of his that did not interfere with their
>                   errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through
>                   their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of
>                   their wills. That errand was to remove Frodo from the
>                   Crack. Once he lost the power or opportunity to
>                   _destroy_ the Ring, the end could not be in doubt..."
>                      -J.R.R. Tolkien, _Letters_ #246 (emphasis his),
>                       describing the situation at the Crack of Doom.
>                       A reasonably strong indication, I think, that
>                       Sauron could control the Nazgul, and also that
>                       Sauron held the Nine Rings. I tell you, a
>                       little bit of research can go a long way.  :)

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 13:52:17 -0700
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tar_elenion@my-deja.com wrote:
> 
> In article <90pl46$1u99$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
>   stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote:
> > Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> > : It is safe to assume?  How would they give Sauron power?  This
> needs to
> > : be enumerated.
> >
> > They would give Sauron power the same way they gave anyone else power.
> > The exact nature of the rings is never described, but they were not
> > just fancy bits of jewelry.  They possessed real power over the world.
> >
> > Stephen
> >
> 
> Letter 131 describes the powers of the Rings. The chief power is to
> prevent or slow down decay (change), and preserve that which is
> desired. All the Rings alike could also enhance the natural powers of
> its' possessor. They also had other powers such as 'invisibilty (save
> the 3).
> Tar-Elenion

Thus, it would have been unlikely to make much a difference for
Sauron...

> 
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 13:53:09 -0700
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Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
> 
> "Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
> news:3A2FF2E5.3DC69672@dana.ucc.nau.edu...
> 
> > Okay, I will go ahead and concede that.  However, that means that
> > for those of you who are arguing that Sauron held the Nine, the
> > same applies there: Sauron could only INFLUENCE the Nazgul.
> 
> Because, as we all know, Sauron wasn't any more powerful / skilled
> in controlling others than Frodo was.

Show this then...

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 13:57:12 -0700
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Tamim wrote:
> 
> Michael Keith Vogler wrote:
> >
> giant snip
> >
> > Sauron didn't have anything to fear from his servants or the Nazgul.
> > Again, your position is internally contradicotry.  You are assuming that
> > Sauron had something to fear from his servants.  That begs the question
> > of why would he trust them then?  Yet, you maintain that he trusted his
> > own servants.  That is completely illogical...
> 
> I am getting a bit tired of saying the same thing over and over again.
> You are apparently not paying any attention.
> 
> Sauron trusted the WK and others to bring back the ring for one reason
> only:
> because Sauron had their rings.
> 
> If he didn't I simply can see no reason why they would bring the ring
> back.
> You are saying that this was because he could control them because of
> his greater mental power.
> As I have said before he was more powerful than anybody else in ME
> (except for TOM)
> yet he could not hope that somebody else would willingly part with the
> ring.

And I am getting a bit tired of pointing how your position is internally
contradictory (which you have never addressed).  It seems pretty clear
that if Sauron, the rightful owner of the One, ordered them to bring it
back they would because otherwise he would destroy them.  It is pretty
cut and dried.  You are alleging that they would be unable to part from
it.  That is possibly true, however, Sauron could have forced Gollum or
Frodo to hand it over, why couldn't he do that with the WK?  Again, at
least my position is not internally contradictory.

> 
> Hallaril

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 13:58:53 -0700
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Then if that statement was in the original, then there isn't a debate. 
Sauron held the nine rings and that is that...  

Why didn't anyone say that to begin with (or was it so long ago that no
one remembers?)?

Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
> 
> "Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
> news:3A301AB2.3B08BC91@dana.ucc.nau.edu...
> 
> > Two questions:
> > 1) Do you realize that I am saying that Frodo has mastery of the
> > ring?
> 
> No, I hadn't... and if you are, I disagree, and can quote Tolkien
> explicitly stating that Frodo did not.  :)
> 
> > 2) Are you adding in the part "which he held" or was that
> > included in the original document?
> 
> It is in the original.  Since you've now questioned my method of
> quotation three times I'll explain that when I place things within
> quotation marks (") it is always a direct reproduction of the
> original words.  The only things I will 'insert' into quotation
> marks are ellipses (...) to show that part of the text has been
> omitted, single quotes (') replacing double (") to avoid confusion
> on where the quotation ends, or bracketed comments ([])- generally
> to provide a clarification of the thing being described by a
> pronoun.  Any other text, including anything in parenthesis (()),
> comes from the original.  On the rare occasions I've run into
> bracketed text within the quotation itself (most commonly when
> Christopher has followed the same convention I use and inserted a
> comment into his father's text) I have usually quoted it as is or
> replaced it with an ellipse if it was not relevant to the issue.
> Further note that when I use single quotes independent of a
> quotation it is most commonly to delineate a single word or short
> phrase and is intended to portray that this is a 'paraphrasing' of
> another person's terms and/or that the so punctuated material is
> somehow slightly inaccurate though perhaps close enough in
> application.
> 
> Aren't you glad you asked?  :)

######

From: stephen@nomail.msu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:


: tar_elenion@my-deja.com wrote:
:> 
:> In article <90pl46$1u99$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
:>   stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote:
:> > Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
:> > : It is safe to assume?  How would they give Sauron power?  This
:> needs to
:> > : be enumerated.
:> >
:> > They would give Sauron power the same way they gave anyone else power.
:> > The exact nature of the rings is never described, but they were not
:> > just fancy bits of jewelry.  They possessed real power over the world.
:> >
:> > Stephen
:> >
:> 
:> Letter 131 describes the powers of the Rings. The chief power is to
:> prevent or slow down decay (change), and preserve that which is
:> desired. All the Rings alike could also enhance the natural powers of
:> its' possessor. They also had other powers such as 'invisibilty (save
:> the 3).
:> Tar-Elenion

: Thus, it would have been unlikely to make much a difference for
: Sauron...

Why do you conclude that?  The rings granted their users power.
Each ring enhances the natural powers of its possessor, Sauron
included.  Why would they not enhance Sauron powers?  Or why assume
that those enhancements would not have been significant to Sauron?

Stephen

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
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"Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
news:3A314A35.DDAF864F@dana.ucc.nau.edu...

> Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
>> "Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
>> news:3A2FF2E5.3DC69672@dana.ucc.nau.edu...

>>> Okay, I will go ahead and concede that.  However, that means
>>> that for those of you who are arguing that Sauron held the
>>> Nine, the same applies there: Sauron could only INFLUENCE the
>>> Nazgul.

>> Because, as we all know, Sauron wasn't any more powerful /
>> skilled in controlling others than Frodo was.

> Show this then...

Sorry, I thought it would be clear that I was kidding.  My point
was that there could be a different situation between Frodo's
ability to control others and Sauron's because Sauron was clearly
more powerful than Frodo.

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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"Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
news:3A314B8D.7EF891E5@dana.ucc.nau.edu...

> Then if that statement was in the original, then there isn't a
> debate. Sauron held the nine rings and that is that...

Actually, some have argued that the term 'held' might be figurative
rather than literal... that Sauron 'had control' rather than that
he physically possessed the Rings.  I think it's a stretch, but
the argument has been made.

> Why didn't anyone say that to begin with (or was it so long ago
> that no one remembers?)?

Steuard Jensen quoted the same passage back on December 1st.

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Quoth "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net> in article
<7HVX5.9736$2P3.690861@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>: 
> I agree on the invisibility, but actually I had assumed that the
> Elven-rings in fact would likely NOT have extended the lifespan of a
> mortal.

I don't have the text in front of me, but I know that Gandalf tells
Frodo that 'a mortal who holds one of the Great Rings does not die'
(note, by the way, my use of single quotes, to denote close but
paraphrased text... that's one convention of yours I hadn't used
before).  As the Three were certainly among the Great Rings, I took
this quote to indicate that they would have life-extending effects on
mortals.  Of course, if I have the quote wrong in my memory, then that
could explain any false conclusions that I've drawn...

> The argument against this which comes to mind is the 'process of
> elimination' in determining which Ring Bilbo's was...  if the Three
> did not extend lifespan that should have disqualified Bilbo's from
> being one of those immediately.

As you point out, there were a great many factors that excluded the
any of the Three from being Bilbo's Ring, not the least of which was
the fact that Gandalf was one of maybe four people who knew exactly
where all of the Three were (I'm assuming the owners of the Three were
aware of each other).  I like the conclusion of this argument, mind
you, but I don't think it's a particularly good one.

At any rate, I think that tying "life extending" to "preservation
against decay" is extremely natural... it's very much what I would
expect to happen to a mortal at the center of the full decay-stopping
power of a Great Ring (particularly if the effect was _supposed_ to be
spread out over a broad area, like Rivendell or Lorien, but the mortal
bearer didn't know how to do so or that it was important).

						Steuard Jensen

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 15:11:07 -0700
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30332



stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote:
> 
> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> 
> : tar_elenion@my-deja.com wrote:
> :>
> :> In article <90pl46$1u99$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
> :>   stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote:
> :> > Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> :> > : It is safe to assume?  How would they give Sauron power?  This
> :> needs to
> :> > : be enumerated.
> :> >
> :> > They would give Sauron power the same way they gave anyone else power.
> :> > The exact nature of the rings is never described, but they were not
> :> > just fancy bits of jewelry.  They possessed real power over the world.
> :> >
> :> > Stephen
> :> >
> :>
> :> Letter 131 describes the powers of the Rings. The chief power is to
> :> prevent or slow down decay (change), and preserve that which is
> :> desired. All the Rings alike could also enhance the natural powers of
> :> its' possessor. They also had other powers such as 'invisibilty (save
> :> the 3).
> :> Tar-Elenion
> 
> : Thus, it would have been unlikely to make much a difference for
> : Sauron...
> 
> Why do you conclude that?  The rings granted their users power.
> Each ring enhances the natural powers of its possessor, Sauron
> included.  Why would they not enhance Sauron powers?  Or why assume
> that those enhancements would not have been significant to Sauron?
> 

I am not saying that they would not enhance Sauron's power, merely that
there would have been no significant impact.  I assume this for two
reasons:

1) The rings were not made for Sauron and were the least of all of the
rings.  Thus, their impact would have been minimal.
2) In statistical analysis, one always assumes that the status quo does
not allow significant changes.  Granted, this is hardly the area to be
talking about statistics, I do think that there is not enough evidence
to suggest that the rings would have had a significant impact.  Because
of this lack of evidence, I assume the status quo to be right.

> Stephen

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 15:12:30 -0700
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30327



Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
> 
> "Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
> news:3A314A35.DDAF864F@dana.ucc.nau.edu...
> 
> > Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
> >> "Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
> >> news:3A2FF2E5.3DC69672@dana.ucc.nau.edu...
> 
> >>> Okay, I will go ahead and concede that.  However, that means
> >>> that for those of you who are arguing that Sauron held the
> >>> Nine, the same applies there: Sauron could only INFLUENCE the
> >>> Nazgul.
> 
> >> Because, as we all know, Sauron wasn't any more powerful /
> >> skilled in controlling others than Frodo was.
> 
> > Show this then...
> 
> Sorry, I thought it would be clear that I was kidding.  My point
> was that there could be a different situation between Frodo's
> ability to control others and Sauron's because Sauron was clearly
> more powerful than Frodo.

Oh, okay.  :0 I get it.  That is a good point.  Unfortunately, I don't
remember what we were talking about :)

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 15:14:48 -0700
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30317



Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
> 
> "Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
> news:3A314B8D.7EF891E5@dana.ucc.nau.edu...
> 
> > Then if that statement was in the original, then there isn't a
> > debate. Sauron held the nine rings and that is that...
> 
> Actually, some have argued that the term 'held' might be figurative
> rather than literal... that Sauron 'had control' rather than that
> he physically possessed the Rings.  I think it's a stretch, but
> the argument has been made.
> 
> > Why didn't anyone say that to begin with (or was it so long ago
> > that no one remembers?)?
> 
> Steuard Jensen quoted the same passage back on December 1st.

I suppose I can see the logic behind saying that Sauron had control of
the rings.  However, the statement, in its context, appears to imply
that the rings held the wills of their owners and thus whoever held the
rings, held their wills.  Interesting...That statement appears pretty
clear.

######

From: stephen@nomail.msu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: 8 Dec 2000 22:58:52 GMT
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30360

Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:


: stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote:
:> 
:> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
:> 
:> : tar_elenion@my-deja.com wrote:
:> :>
:> :> In article <90pl46$1u99$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
:> :>   stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote:
:> :> > Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
:> :> > : It is safe to assume?  How would they give Sauron power?  This
:> :> needs to
:> :> > : be enumerated.
:> :> >
:> :> > They would give Sauron power the same way they gave anyone else power.
:> :> > The exact nature of the rings is never described, but they were not
:> :> > just fancy bits of jewelry.  They possessed real power over the world.
:> :> >
:> :> > Stephen
:> :> >
:> :>
:> :> Letter 131 describes the powers of the Rings. The chief power is to
:> :> prevent or slow down decay (change), and preserve that which is
:> :> desired. All the Rings alike could also enhance the natural powers of
:> :> its' possessor. They also had other powers such as 'invisibilty (save
:> :> the 3).
:> :> Tar-Elenion
:> 
:> : Thus, it would have been unlikely to make much a difference for
:> : Sauron...
:> 
:> Why do you conclude that?  The rings granted their users power.
:> Each ring enhances the natural powers of its possessor, Sauron
:> included.  Why would they not enhance Sauron powers?  Or why assume
:> that those enhancements would not have been significant to Sauron?
:> 

: I am not saying that they would not enhance Sauron's power, merely that
: there would have been no significant impact.  I assume this for two
: reasons:

: 1) The rings were not made for Sauron and were the least of all of the
: rings.  Thus, their impact would have been minimal.

They were Rings of Power, made by Elves, for Elves, under Sauron's guidance.
The fact that they were not made for Sauron (although in a sense they
were) does not matter.  The Nine were not made for Men, yet they
granted Men power.  The One was made for Sauron, yet it would grant 
anyone power.  Narya, made for Elves, granted Gandalf, a Maia, power.   
And the Nine were not the least of all the rings.  They were not the 
trifles mentioned by Gandalf that were still dangerous to mortals.  

: 2) In statistical analysis, one always assumes that the status quo does
: not allow significant changes.  Granted, this is hardly the area to be
: talking about statistics, I do think that there is not enough evidence
: to suggest that the rings would have had a significant impact.  Because
: of this lack of evidence, I assume the status quo to be right.

What status quo?  The rings grant their user powers, according to the
measure of the user.  The more powerful you are, the more power the
rings give you.  That is the status quo.  There is plenty of evidence for 
this in the texts.  Why do you assume that this does not apply to Sauron 
and the Nine?

Stephen

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2000 16:49:07 -0700
Organization: Northern Arizona University
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30328



stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote:
> 
> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> 
> : stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote:
> :>
> :> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> :>
> :> : tar_elenion@my-deja.com wrote:
> :> :>
> :> :> In article <90pl46$1u99$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
> :> :>   stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote:
> :> :> > Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> :> :> > : It is safe to assume?  How would they give Sauron power?  This
> :> :> needs to
> :> :> > : be enumerated.
> :> :> >
> :> :> > They would give Sauron power the same way they gave anyone else power.
> :> :> > The exact nature of the rings is never described, but they were not
> :> :> > just fancy bits of jewelry.  They possessed real power over the world.
> :> :> >
> :> :> > Stephen
> :> :> >
> :> :>
> :> :> Letter 131 describes the powers of the Rings. The chief power is to
> :> :> prevent or slow down decay (change), and preserve that which is
> :> :> desired. All the Rings alike could also enhance the natural powers of
> :> :> its' possessor. They also had other powers such as 'invisibilty (save
> :> :> the 3).
> :> :> Tar-Elenion
> :>
> :> : Thus, it would have been unlikely to make much a difference for
> :> : Sauron...
> :>
> :> Why do you conclude that?  The rings granted their users power.
> :> Each ring enhances the natural powers of its possessor, Sauron
> :> included.  Why would they not enhance Sauron powers?  Or why assume
> :> that those enhancements would not have been significant to Sauron?
> :>
> 
> : I am not saying that they would not enhance Sauron's power, merely that
> : there would have been no significant impact.  I assume this for two
> : reasons:
> 
> : 1) The rings were not made for Sauron and were the least of all of the
> : rings.  Thus, their impact would have been minimal.
> 
> They were Rings of Power, made by Elves, for Elves, under Sauron's guidance.
> The fact that they were not made for Sauron (although in a sense they
> were) does not matter.  The Nine were not made for Men, yet they
> granted Men power.  The One was made for Sauron, yet it would grant
> anyone power.  Narya, made for Elves, granted Gandalf, a Maia, power.
> And the Nine were not the least of all the rings.  They were not the
> trifles mentioned by Gandalf that were still dangerous to mortals.

Where does it say that the Nine were not the least of the rings?

> 
> : 2) In statistical analysis, one always assumes that the status quo does
> : not allow significant changes.  Granted, this is hardly the area to be
> : talking about statistics, I do think that there is not enough evidence
> : to suggest that the rings would have had a significant impact.  Because
> : of this lack of evidence, I assume the status quo to be right.
> 
> What status quo?  The rings grant their user powers, according to the
> measure of the user.  The more powerful you are, the more power the
> rings give you.  That is the status quo.  There is plenty of evidence for
> this in the texts.  Why do you assume that this does not apply to Sauron
> and the Nine?

Ummm...That is what I just said.  The rings would not grant a
significant amount of power to Sauron.  Just because the more power one
has means that the more power the rings give does not mean that there is
a significant change.  There is no evidence to suggest that this
increase would be significant (I am using the statistical definition of
significant, not the lay).

> 
> Stephen

######

From: "Androg" <androg at mail dot com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Conrad Dunkerson <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:1s9Y5.1821$d62.118170@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> "Ermanna" <jsolinas@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:3A30E6D5.BC11C268@erols.com...
>
> > Um, wasn't the only Dwarf to be reborn Durin? I thought the
> > others were gathered in a special hall in Mandos by Aule.
>
> Most of the texts give the reincarnation effect to each of the
> 'Seven Fathers' rather than Durin alone.  There isn't anything I
> can think of about it being a general dwarvish characteristic
> though.  I've speculated in the past that this might be reasonable
> and the more common Dwarves just weren't 'recognized' when they
> returned, but JRRT never seems to have settled on the details of
> even Durin's reincarnation enough to make much of a guess at how
> it worked.

Unfortunately the Dwarves liked to keep all their knowledge on these things
secret.

--
Androg

"Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncuthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescene land,
eardgeard elfa, and esa bliss."

######

From: Hallaril <hallaril@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: 9 Dec 2000 14:08:22 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki
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Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:


> Tamim wrote:
>> 
>> ring.

> And I am getting a bit tired of pointing how your position is internally
> contradictory (which you have never addressed).

I have.

  It seems pretty clear
> that if Sauron, the rightful owner of the One, ordered them to bring it
> back they would because otherwise he would destroy them.

How? How Sauron could destroy WK who gets the ring in shire while
sitting himself in BD? He couldn't destroy Frodo who was on Orodruin
with the ring. Frodo was much closer and much less powerful than the WK.

  It is pretty
> cut and dried.  You are alleging that they would be unable to part from
> it.  That is possibly true, however, Sauron could have forced Gollum or
> Frodo to hand it over, why couldn't he do that with the WK?

He couldn't force Gollum to part with it. Or Frodo for that matter.
I am not saying he could not do it if the keeper of the ring was sitting
in front of him. But would the Nazgul have just brought the ring To
Mordor if Sauron didn't have their rings.


  Again, at
> least my position is not internally contradictory.

You have taken no position. just tried to find a non-existant
contradiction in my position.

Hallaril
>> Hallaril

-- 

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
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Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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"Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
news:3A317373.F3FEDAA0@dana.ucc.nau.edu...

> Where does it say that the Nine were not the least of the rings?

In addition to the 20 Great Rings (9+7+3+1 = 20) there were other
lesser rings which, like the One, had no gemstone.  The lack of
gemstone meant that the One could be mistaken for one of the lesser
Rings until various tests / evidences to the contrary were observed.

"'In Eregion long ago many Elvin-rings were made, magic rings as
you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some
more potent and some less.  The lesser rings were only essays in
the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they
were but trifles - yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals.  But
the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous.'"
FotR, The Shadow of the Past

"'The Nine, the Seven, and the Three,' he said, 'had each their
proper gem.  Not so the One.  It was round and unadorned, as it
were one of the lesser rings...'"
FotR, The Council of Elrond


In this second quotation there is a clear separation between the
gemstone adorned Nine and unadorned "lesser" rings... and so, the
Nine were not the least.

######

From: stephen@nomail.msu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: 9 Dec 2000 18:14:48 GMT
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Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:


: stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote:
:> 
:> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
:> 
:> : I am not saying that they would not enhance Sauron's power, merely that
:> : there would have been no significant impact.  I assume this for two
:> : reasons:
:> 
:> : 1) The rings were not made for Sauron and were the least of all of the
:> : rings.  Thus, their impact would have been minimal.
:> 
:> They were Rings of Power, made by Elves, for Elves, under Sauron's guidance.
:> The fact that they were not made for Sauron (although in a sense they
:> were) does not matter.  The Nine were not made for Men, yet they
:> granted Men power.  The One was made for Sauron, yet it would grant
:> anyone power.  Narya, made for Elves, granted Gandalf, a Maia, power.
:> And the Nine were not the least of all the rings.  They were not the
:> trifles mentioned by Gandalf that were still dangerous to mortals.

: Where does it say that the Nine were not the least of the rings?

Where does it say that they are?  The three were the greatest, 
made with "a different power and purpose" according to UT, but
I do not know of any text that compares the seven and the Nine.
Anyone?  In UT Sauron retrieves the Nine before the Seven, but
that is not proof that the seven were "stronger".  In any case,
there were lesser rings according to Gandalf, that were not Rings
of Power.

:> 
:> : 2) In statistical analysis, one always assumes that the status quo does
:> : not allow significant changes.  Granted, this is hardly the area to be
:> : talking about statistics, I do think that there is not enough evidence
:> : to suggest that the rings would have had a significant impact.  Because
:> : of this lack of evidence, I assume the status quo to be right.
:> 
:> What status quo?  The rings grant their user powers, according to the
:> measure of the user.  The more powerful you are, the more power the
:> rings give you.  That is the status quo.  There is plenty of evidence for
:> this in the texts.  Why do you assume that this does not apply to Sauron
:> and the Nine?

: Ummm...That is what I just said.  The rings would not grant a
: significant amount of power to Sauron.  Just because the more power one
: has means that the more power the rings give does not mean that there is
: a significant change.  There is no evidence to suggest that this
: increase would be significant (I am using the statistical definition of
: significant, not the lay).

If you are going to use statistical definitions then of course there
is no evidence, for or against your position, because there are no numbers.
Did the Ring's double their user's power, did they increase it by 5%?
Who knows?   In Tolkien's world magic is not so simple.  I am arguing that
any of the Rings would increase Sauron's power, and for that reason
Sauron had a reason to retrieve and use the Rings of Power, including
the Nine.  After all, why did Sauron bother retrieving the Seven?  
In "Of the Rings of Power" Gandalf says something to the affect 
that Sauron has been retrieving the Rings and his power is growing.  
If the Seven increased his power, why not the Nine?

Stephen

######

From: stephen@nomail.msu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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tar_elenion@my-deja.com wrote:
: In article <90pl46$1u99$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>,
:   stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote:
:> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
:> : It is safe to assume?  How would they give Sauron power?  This
: needs to
:> : be enumerated.
:>
:> They would give Sauron power the same way they gave anyone else power.
:> The exact nature of the rings is never described, but they were not
:> just fancy bits of jewelry.  They possessed real power over the world.
:>
:> Stephen
:>

: Letter 131 describes the powers of the Rings. The chief power is to
: prevent or slow down decay (change), and preserve that which is
: desired. All the Rings alike could also enhance the natural powers of
: its' possessor. They also had other powers such as 'invisibilty (save
: the 3).
: Tar-Elenion

Curious.  One of these days I need to read the Letters.  In
Unfinished Tales it is said that the Three were made with "a different
power and purpose", and in "The Rings of Power" it is said Sauron
especially desired the Three because they had the power to preserve and 
ward off world weariness.  Both of these imply that the other 16 rings
lacked this power. 

Stephen

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
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"Steuard Jensen" <sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:UYcY5.156$E3.3127@uchinews...

> I don't have the text in front of me, but I know that Gandalf
> tells Frodo that 'a mortal who holds one of the Great Rings does
> not die' (note, by the way, my use of single quotes, to denote
> close but paraphrased text... that's one convention of yours I
> hadn't used before).

Heh, I'm flattered.  Word of warning, both JRRT and CT use '' quite
frequently as well.  I tend to think that they do so in a manner
similar to my convention (which indeed I adopted from my perception
of usage in other sources), but that is far from an accepted
reality and can lead to making perhaps unwarranted assumptions (as
when I took Christopher's reference to Balrog "'wings'" as
indicative of a belief on his part that the term was not entirely
appropriate... I remembered it as CT questioning the validity of
wings, but that was based solely on my own view of the meaning of
'').

> As the Three were certainly among the Great Rings, I took this
> quote to indicate that they would have life-extending effects on
> mortals.

Reasonable.  However, the passage continues to state that if the
person in question often uses the Ring to become invisible badness
may ensue... and we are told in other sources the Three could not
make one invisible.  Further it speaks to the dangers of the Rings,
which elsewhere are indicated to have come from Sauron 'cursing'
those he captured... again, excluding the Three.  So, as some of
the other conditions of that passage do not apply to the Three I
don't think we can assume the life extending would.  Gandalf may
have been speaking solely of those Great Rings which Bilbo's could
theoretically be... and again that would exclude the Three, whose
locations were known.

> Of course, if I have the quote wrong in my memory, then that
> could explain any false conclusions that I've drawn...

Heh.  We've both seen that quotation so many times that there is
little doubt of any error beyond the exact wording... FotR, Shadow
of the Past.

> As you point out, there were a great many factors that excluded
> the any of the Three from being Bilbo's Ring, not the least of
> which was the fact that Gandalf was one of maybe four people who
> knew exactly where all of the Three were (I'm assuming the owners
> of the Three were aware of each other).

I believe this is stated, and that Saruman had guessed at the
locations... which would make a fifth as you are presumably
including Cirdan as the 4th above.

> At any rate, I think that tying "life extending" to "preservation
> against decay" is extremely natural... it's very much what I
> would expect to happen to a mortal at the center of the full
> decay-stopping power of a Great Ring (particularly if the effect
> was _supposed_ to be spread out over a broad area, like Rivendell
> or Lorien, but the mortal bearer didn't know how to do so or that
> it was important).

Yeah, there is a reasonable basis for the idea.  Overall I like
'life extending tied to fading' (and thus not present in the Three)
but the supports for 'life extending tied to preservation' are at
least equally 'solid'.

BTW, on the 'spreading out' idea for the preservation power... the
connection to Rivendell and (even moreso) Lothlorien are obvious,
and something similar might be assumed for the Havens while Cirdan
held Narya - but what about Gandalf?  Did he 'spread out' the
effect?  I note that in the siege of Minas Tirith he had to
actually pass along the walls to rekindle courage in the defenders
and it faded after he had passed.

######

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Quoth stephen@nomail.msu.edu in article <90tt4l$1sti$2@msunews.cl.msu.edu>:
> ...in "The Rings of Power" it is said Sauron especially desired the
> Three because they had the power to preserve and ward off world
> weariness.  Both of these imply that the other 16 rings lacked this
> power.

I'm not sure what quote it is you're thinking of here, but your
conclusion is certainly at odds with my understanding of the Great
Rings.  Could you post the source of your interpretation?  My
impression has been that the Great Rings were all created specifically
in response to the Elvish desire to slow the swift decay and change in
the world, thereby making the immortal Elves more comfortable.  You
may be right, but it will take an awfully clear quote to convince me
(and a discussion of the other evidence as well).

						Steuard Jensen

######

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Quoth "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net> in article
<VTuY5.11798$Ei1.818403@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>: 
> "Steuard Jensen" <sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
> news:UYcY5.156$E3.3127@uchinews...
> > Gandalf was one of maybe four people who knew exactly where all of
> > the Three were

> I believe this is stated, and that Saruman had guessed at the
> locations... which would make a fifth as you are presumably
> including Cirdan as the 4th above.

Sauron probably had a pretty good idea, too. :) I wouldn't be
surprised if he and Saruman were both in the 'he suspects, but he is
not sure' category.

> > ...if the effect was _supposed_ to be spread out over a broad
> > area, like Rivendell or Lorien

> BTW, on the 'spreading out' idea for the preservation power... the
> connection to Rivendell and (even moreso) Lothlorien are obvious,
> and something similar might be assumed for the Havens while Cirdan
> held Narya - but what about Gandalf?  Did he 'spread out' the
> effect?  I note that in the siege of Minas Tirith he had to
> actually pass along the walls to rekindle courage in the defenders
> and it faded after he had passed.

That's an important point, and one that I've wondered about for a
while.  I have two responses.  First of all, I don't think there's any
particularly strong evidence for Gandalf being surrounded by an
"anti-decay field", though I'm not quite sure how that would manifest
itself.  There's no particular reason that Gandalf would want to
create such an "area effect", though.

Second, I haven't figured out the exact relation between "anti-decay"
effects of the Rings and Gandalf's "heart kindling" abilities (which
were explicitly linked to Narya).  I don't think that they are exactly
the same effect: the slowing of decay seems like more of a long-term
effect than something that would immediately lift the spirit.  (Also,
I don't know that humans would get as much of a morale boost from
reduced decay as Elves would: humans, I think, tend to thrive when
faced with change.)  I wouldn't be surprised if the heart-kindling
that he did required a more targeted use of the Ring's effects, at any
rate, which would go a long way toward explaining his need to make
rounds along the walls of Minas Tirith.

						Steuard Jensen

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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"Steuard Jensen" wrote;

> Quoth stephen@nomail.msu.edu:

>> ...in "The Rings of Power" it is said Sauron especially desired
>> the Three because they had the power to preserve and ward off
>> world weariness.  Both of these imply that the other 16 rings
>> lacked this power.

> I'm not sure what quote it is you're thinking of here, but your
> conclusion is certainly at odds with my understanding of the
> Great Rings.  Could you post the source of your interpretation?

Almost certainly;

"Narya, Nenya, and Vilya, they were named, the Rings of Fire, and
of Water, and of Air, set with ruby and adamant and sapphire; and
of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for
those who had them in their keeping could ward of the decays of
time and postpone the weariness of the world."
Silm, Of the Rings of Power

The question then is how we can reconcile the above with;

"The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or
slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the
preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance..."
Letters #131

Another passage again refers to the Elven desire to arrest change
and specifically speaks to the THREE Rings in this regard as
opposed to all of them;

"But the Elvish weakness is in these terms naturally to regret the
past, and to become unwilling to face change...  Hence they fell in
a measure to Sauron's deceits: they desired some 'power' over
things as they are (which is quite distinct from art), and to make
their particular will to preservation effective: to arrest change,
and keep things always fresh and fair.  The 'Three Rings' were
'unsullied', because this object was in a limited way good, it
included the healing of the real damages of malice, as well as the
mere arrest of change..."
Letters #181


So which is it... all or just the Three?  In my view the most
likely answer is that while this was the purpose the Elves were
striving towards in their creation of ALL the Rings (even the
lesser), only the Three really fully >achieved< this goal.  The
other Rings might SLOW decay and world weariness but not really
stop it.

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
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"Steuard Jensen" <sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:iHvY5.229$E3.3929@uchinews...

> Second, I haven't figured out the exact relation between "anti-
> decay" effects of the Rings and Gandalf's "heart kindling"
> abilities (which were explicitly linked to Narya).

Actually, I think there is a closer link there to the 'anti
world-weariness' objectives.  I wonder if the Three Rings might
have each obtained different aspects of the elvish objectives or
obtained them in different measure?  Something like;

Narya = Best no World-Weariness, Worst no Decay
Nenya = Worst no World-Weariness, Best no Decay
Vilya = Middling no World-Weariness & no Decay

Obviously no such conception is put forward by JRRT, but this seems
consistent with the presentation in the texts.  Narya is 'the
kindler' of hearts and minds, Lothlorien exists in a timeless
state, and Rivendell is apparent home of timeless cheer.

> I wouldn't be surprised if the heart-kindling that he did
> required a more targeted use of the Ring's effects, at any rate,
> which would go a long way toward explaining his need to make
> rounds along the walls of Minas Tirith.

This seems likely.  I wonder if the 'cheer' as I call it of
Rivendell would have held under an attack by the Nazgul.  Lifting
people out of the depression caused by the Black Breath could very
reasonably require a much more direct application of power than
merely keeping an area generally free of 'world weariness'.

######

From: stephen@nomail.msu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Conrad Dunkerson <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
: "Steuard Jensen" wrote;

:> Quoth stephen@nomail.msu.edu:

:>> ...in "The Rings of Power" it is said Sauron especially desired
:>> the Three because they had the power to preserve and ward off
:>> world weariness.  Both of these imply that the other 16 rings
:>> lacked this power.

:> I'm not sure what quote it is you're thinking of here, but your
:> conclusion is certainly at odds with my understanding of the
:> Great Rings.  Could you post the source of your interpretation?

: Almost certainly;

: "Narya, Nenya, and Vilya, they were named, the Rings of Fire, and
: of Water, and of Air, set with ruby and adamant and sapphire; and
: of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for
: those who had them in their keeping could ward of the decays of
: time and postpone the weariness of the world."
: Silm, Of the Rings of Power

That was the quote.  There is also this from the History of Galadriel
and Celeborn.

"Then Celebrimbor was put to torment, and Sauron learned from him
where the Seven were bestowed.  This Celebrimbor revealed, because
neither the Seven or the Nine did he value as he valued the Three;
the Seven and the Nine were made with Sauron's aid, whereas the
Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, with a different power
and purpose."

To me, "a different power and purpose" implies that the Three Rings
were quite different than the others.

<SNIP>

: So which is it... all or just the Three?  In my view the most
: likely answer is that while this was the purpose the Elves were
: striving towards in their creation of ALL the Rings (even the
: lesser), only the Three really fully >achieved< this goal.  The
: other Rings might SLOW decay and world weariness but not really
: stop it.

I don't know.  The texts do seem somewhat inconsistent.

Stephen

######

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Quoth "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net> in article
<foyY5.11478$2P3.823240@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>: 
> "Steuard Jensen" <sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> > Second, I haven't figured out the exact relation between "anti-
> > decay" effects of the Rings and Gandalf's "heart kindling"
> > abilities (which were explicitly linked to Narya).

> Actually, I think there is a closer link there to the 'anti
> world-weariness' objectives.  I wonder if the Three Rings might have
> each obtained different aspects of the elvish objectives or obtained
> them in different measure?  Something like;
> 
> Narya = Best no World-Weariness, Worst no Decay
> Nenya = Worst no World-Weariness, Best no Decay
> Vilya = Middling no World-Weariness & no Decay


Interesting.  I'll admit that I hadn't thought of the objectives quite
so independently before, but that it does make some sense.  I'd
thought (up to now, at least) that the Elves' world-weariness was
caused more or less directly by the decay and change in the world
around them.  After all, even as humans we have seen that the elderly
often have at least some trouble dealing with all the changes in the
world since they were young; how much more pronounced must that
feeling have been for the Eldar?  On the other hand, for human beings
there are some things which are seemingly eternal, that can last
throughout our lives with little evidence of decay.  (I'm thinking of
things like trees, for example: people can often go back to their
childhood homes and recall good times they had in or under the trees
in the yard.  Also, things like buildings: my parents have taken me to
see the apartment they lived in right after they were married, and
I've even seen the homes where my grandparents grew up.)  For Elves,
there really wouldn't be anything so permanent.  Over the course of a
few thousand years I think that even mountains would show signs of
wear, while most buildings and living things would be transient at
best.

At any rate, my point is that I've seen the world-weariness of the
Elves as a reaction to the gradual loss of everything around them that
they care for... except other Elves.  Even then, we know that the
Elves eventually began to fade themselves, which could for many have
been a first step on the road to despair.  If they knew that there was
a place that they could go where decay and change were not so swift or
so complete, I wouldn't be surprised to find most of them eventually
becoming weary of the world.  I would also think that in just such
cases, the ability to preserve a little corner of the world they loved
from decay would be tremendously attractive, and that living in such a
place would go a long way to curing their world-weariness... at least
until they stepped foot outside of their enclave and were forced to
confront the great changes that had occurred everywhere else in the
meantime.  (At the least, the Elves of Rivendell and Lorien were
forced to do this when the Three failed; at the worst, the accumulated
weight of years actually fell upon Lorien and Rivendell themselves all
at once at that point (just as they would have fallen upon Gollum),
which would have been a truly crushing blow to the inhabitants there.)

Well... at any rate, that's why I've seen the direct connection
between the two effects of the Rings: I assumed that the Rings
themselves only slowed decay, and that the reduction in the Elves'
world-weariness was purely a consequence of that.  You bring up some
significant points in the apparently different effects of each of the
Rings, though, and I think that I should probably reexamine my
thoughts.

On the other hand, I think that to some degree the differences between
Lorien and Rivendell and, well, Gandalf's use of Narya could have been
the result of choices on the part of the Ring weilders and of the
populations of those communities.  My impression, for example, is that
the people of Rivendell may have interacted more with the outside
world than the people of Lorien.  That may have contributed to the
greater sense of change there (as compared to Lorien).  On the other
hand, I'm not sure that Rivendell was particularly less world-weary
than Lorien: the Elves we see in Lorien seem happy enough, if quite
isolated from the world outside.  (Look at how Gandalf's death
affected them: yes, it was very significant and tragic, but I think
that they might not have gone in to such a "national mourning period"
if they had not blocked out every hint of change from their day to day
lives so effectively.)

Hmm.  I could probably go on saying the same thing a few more times at
equally great length, but instead I think that I'll sit back and
contemplate the other side of the issue for a while.  There is at the
very least _room_ for a difference in the action of the Rings of the
sort that you've outlined... I'm just not sure if it's necessary.
I'll think about it. :)
						Steuard Jensen

######

From: "No Spam" <nospam@nospam.org>
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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Re: "they were not made for men either"   

I was rereading the chapter of "The Shadow of the Past" and I found this
passage:

     "Nine he gave too Mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared them.
      Long ago they fell under the dominion of the One, and they became 
      Ringwraiths, shadows under hs great Shadow, his most terrible
servants."

I think this passage says word for word that the Nine were made for men. 
Why else would a mortal man dressed all in black be searching for one ring
of gold??

      

Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in article
<3A2EDF33.5DB3AE01@dana.ucc.nau.edu>...
> 
> 
> Hallaril wrote:
> > 
> > Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> > > So then: what benefit would the nine have for Sauron?  They weren't
made
> > > for him.
> > 
> > My say on the subject is that the only benefit would be their value as
> > hostages. But one has to remeber that they were not made for men
either.
> > 
> 
> Which is in doubt...
> 
> > hallaril
> 

######

From: tar_elenion@my-deja.com
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Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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In article <01c062d1$45fa6aa0$4d8e1442@davidste>,
  "No Spam" <nospam@nospam.org> wrote:
> Re: "they were not made for men either"
>
> I was rereading the chapter of "The Shadow of the Past" and I found
this
> passage:
>
>      "Nine he gave too Mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared
them.
>       Long ago they fell under the dominion of the One, and they
became
>       Ringwraiths, shadows under hs great Shadow, his most terrible
> servants."
>
> I think this passage says word for word that the Nine were made for
men.
> Why else would a mortal man dressed all in black be searching for one
ring
> of gold??
>

No, the passsage says that Sauron _gave_ the Nine to Men. It does not
say the Elves _made_ the Nine for Men. Sauron only gave the Nine to Men
some time after taking them from the Elves when his plan to use them to
control and enslave the Elves failed.

Tar-Elenion


> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in article
> <3A2EDF33.5DB3AE01@dana.ucc.nau.edu>...
> >
> >
> > Hallaril wrote:
> > >
> > > Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> > > > So then: what benefit would the nine have for Sauron?  They
weren't
> made
> > > > for him.
> > >
> > > My say on the subject is that the only benefit would be their
value as
> > > hostages. But one has to remeber that they were not made for men
> either.
> > >
> >
> > Which is in doubt...
> >
> > > hallaril
> >
>


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: Skylar Thompson <skylar@attglobal.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

On 12-10-00, 16:48:56, "No Spam" <nospam@nospam.org> wrote regarding Re:=
=20
Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?:


> Re: "they were not made for men either"

> I was rereading the chapter of "The Shadow of the Past" and I found=20=

this
> passage:

>      "Nine he gave too Mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared=20=

them.
>       Long ago they fell under the dominion of the One, and they=20
became
>       Ringwraiths, shadows under hs great Shadow, his most terrible
> servants."

> I think this passage says word for word that the Nine were made for=20=

men.
> Why else would a mortal man dressed all in black be searching for one =

ring
> of gold??

Sauron created them to corrupt anyone, of any race, not knowing that=20=

certain races (Elves, Dwarves, and Hobbits) were not affected (Elves),=20=

or were not affected in the way he intended (Dwarves and Hobbits). The=20=

distribution of the non-Elven Rings (Seven, and Nine) was determined=20=

by Sauron after He reclaimed some of the Rings in the assault on=20
Eregion. Along these lines, what affect would a Ring (or the One Ring,=20=

for that matter) have on an Ent?

--=20
Skylar Thompson,
eMail: skylar@attglobal.net

`All that is gold does not glitter/Not all who wander are lost
The old that is strong does not wither/Deep roots are not reached by=20=

the frost
From the ashes a fire shall be woken/A light from the shadows shall=20
spring
Renewed shall be blade that was broken/The crownless again shall be=20
king.'

######

From: Robert Brady <rwb197@zepler.org>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2000 22:35:22 +0000
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30430

Steuard Jensen <sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> Sauron probably had a pretty good idea, too. :) I wouldn't be
> surprised if he and Saruman were both in the 'he suspects, but he is
> not sure' category.

By the time of the war, Saruman was probably in "certainly not, as I read
his mind and he didn't have it".

-- 
Robert

######

From: Hallaril <hallaril@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: 11 Dec 2000 14:17:49 GMT
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30460

Skylar Thompson <skylar@attglobal.net> wrote:


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

> On 12-10-00, 16:48:56, "No Spam" <nospam@nospam.org> wrote regarding Re: 
> Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?:


>> Re: "they were not made for men either"

>> I was rereading the chapter of "The Shadow of the Past" and I found 
> this
>> passage:

>>      "Nine he gave too Mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared 
> them.
>>       Long ago they fell under the dominion of the One, and they 
> became
>>       Ringwraiths, shadows under hs great Shadow, his most terrible
>> servants."

>> I think this passage says word for word that the Nine were made for 
> men.
>> Why else would a mortal man dressed all in black be searching for one 
> ring
>> of gold??

> Sauron created them to corrupt anyone, of any race, not knowing that 
> certain races (Elves, Dwarves, and Hobbits) were not affected (Elves),


for the last time sauron did notr make them. Celebimbor did, sauron did
adevice thouh. In fact he did touch them. but Celebimbor made them and
he did not make them with the intention that they should enslave elves.

Hallaril

######

From: Skylar Thompson <skylar@attglobal.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

On 12-11-00, 14:17:49, Hallaril <hallaril@hotmail.com> wrote regarding=20=

Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?:


> Skylar Thompson <skylar@attglobal.net> wrote:


> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

> > On 12-10-00, 16:48:56, "No Spam" <nospam@nospam.org> wrote regarding=
 Re:
> > Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?:


> >> Re: "they were not made for men either"

> >> I was rereading the chapter of "The Shadow of the Past" and I found=

> > this
> >> passage:

> >>      "Nine he gave too Mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared=

> > them.
> >>       Long ago they fell under the dominion of the One, and they
> > became
> >>       Ringwraiths, shadows under hs great Shadow, his most terrible=

> >> servants."

> >> I think this passage says word for word that the Nine were made for=

> > men.
> >> Why else would a mortal man dressed all in black be searching for o=
ne
> > ring
> >> of gold??

> > Sauron created them to corrupt anyone, of any race, not knowing that=

> > certain races (Elves, Dwarves, and Hobbits) were not affected (Elves=
),


> for the last time sauron did notr make them. Celebimbor did, sauron=20=

did
> adevice thouh. In fact he did touch them. but Celebimbor made them and=

> he did not make them with the intention that they should enslave=20
elves.

Sorry. Should have had `helped create them'.

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:30436

Yes, I knew that.  WHat I meant was the least of the great rings...

Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
> 
> "Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
> news:3A317373.F3FEDAA0@dana.ucc.nau.edu...
> 
> > Where does it say that the Nine were not the least of the rings?
> 
> In addition to the 20 Great Rings (9+7+3+1 = 20) there were other
> lesser rings which, like the One, had no gemstone.  The lack of
> gemstone meant that the One could be mistaken for one of the lesser
> Rings until various tests / evidences to the contrary were observed.
> 
> "'In Eregion long ago many Elvin-rings were made, magic rings as
> you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some
> more potent and some less.  The lesser rings were only essays in
> the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they
> were but trifles - yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals.  But
> the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous.'"
> FotR, The Shadow of the Past
> 
> "'The Nine, the Seven, and the Three,' he said, 'had each their
> proper gem.  Not so the One.  It was round and unadorned, as it
> were one of the lesser rings...'"
> FotR, The Council of Elrond
> 
> In this second quotation there is a clear separation between the
> gemstone adorned Nine and unadorned "lesser" rings... and so, the
> Nine were not the least.

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote:
> 
> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> 
> : stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote:
> :>
> :> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> :>
> :> : I am not saying that they would not enhance Sauron's power, merely that
> :> : there would have been no significant impact.  I assume this for two
> :> : reasons:
> :>
> :> : 1) The rings were not made for Sauron and were the least of all of the
> :> : rings.  Thus, their impact would have been minimal.
> :>
> :> They were Rings of Power, made by Elves, for Elves, under Sauron's guidance.
> :> The fact that they were not made for Sauron (although in a sense they
> :> were) does not matter.  The Nine were not made for Men, yet they
> :> granted Men power.  The One was made for Sauron, yet it would grant
> :> anyone power.  Narya, made for Elves, granted Gandalf, a Maia, power.
> :> And the Nine were not the least of all the rings.  They were not the
> :> trifles mentioned by Gandalf that were still dangerous to mortals.
> 
> : Where does it say that the Nine were not the least of the rings?
> 
> Where does it say that they are?  The three were the greatest,
> made with "a different power and purpose" according to UT, but
> I do not know of any text that compares the seven and the Nine.
> Anyone?  In UT Sauron retrieves the Nine before the Seven, but
> that is not proof that the seven were "stronger".  In any case,
> there were lesser rings according to Gandalf, that were not Rings
> of Power.
> 
> :>
> :> : 2) In statistical analysis, one always assumes that the status quo does
> :> : not allow significant changes.  Granted, this is hardly the area to be
> :> : talking about statistics, I do think that there is not enough evidence
> :> : to suggest that the rings would have had a significant impact.  Because
> :> : of this lack of evidence, I assume the status quo to be right.
> :>
> :> What status quo?  The rings grant their user powers, according to the
> :> measure of the user.  The more powerful you are, the more power the
> :> rings give you.  That is the status quo.  There is plenty of evidence for
> :> this in the texts.  Why do you assume that this does not apply to Sauron
> :> and the Nine?
> 
> : Ummm...That is what I just said.  The rings would not grant a
> : significant amount of power to Sauron.  Just because the more power one
> : has means that the more power the rings give does not mean that there is
> : a significant change.  There is no evidence to suggest that this
> : increase would be significant (I am using the statistical definition of
> : significant, not the lay).
> 
> If you are going to use statistical definitions then of course there
> is no evidence, for or against your position, because there are no numbers.
> Did the Ring's double their user's power, did they increase it by 5%?
> Who knows?   In Tolkien's world magic is not so simple.  I am arguing that
> any of the Rings would increase Sauron's power, and for that reason
> Sauron had a reason to retrieve and use the Rings of Power, including
> the Nine.  After all, why did Sauron bother retrieving the Seven?
> In "Of the Rings of Power" Gandalf says something to the affect
> that Sauron has been retrieving the Rings and his power is growing.
> If the Seven increased his power, why not the Nine?

And I am not disputing this, I am just saying that I think such changes
would not be of consequence...

> 
> Stephen

######

From: "Durin VII" <a_fred_B@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
References: <8F9X5.139$x3.2388@uchinews> <20001205133804.17413.00004361@ng-cg1.aol.com> <G%bX5.4014$Sl.206989@iad-read.news.verio.net> <3A2D75A6.31A6A9B5@dana.ucc.nau.edu> <9WxX5.4139$Sl.216470@iad-read.news.verio.net> <3A2EBB5C.C55788BE@dana.ucc.nau.edu> <NzTX5.4267$Sl.223145@iad-read.news.verio.net> <3A30184F.6A452371@helsinki.fi>
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"Tamim" <tamim.khawaja@helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:3A30184F.6A452371@helsinki.fi...
> Durin VII wrote:
>
> >
> > Who were they made for?
>
> The elves.
>
>  They worked for anyone who know how to use them.
> > Sauron made them,
>
> No he didn't. Elves made them, Sauron helped.
> snip

Sorry, I was refering to Saurons help. I tend to think some of the
instruction included his eventual control.  I was refering to made for
Sauron as made for his purpose and will. I think he could control them if he
had them and not the one.
>
> Halaril

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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Quoth "No Spam" <nospam@nospam.org> in article
<01c062d1$45fa6aa0$4d8e1442@davidste>: 
> Re: "they were not made for men either"   

>   "Nine he gave too Mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared them.

> I think this passage says word for word that the Nine were made for
> men.

As I think someone else has already pointed out, this passage only
says that the Nine were _given_ to Men.  The Nine were _made_ by the
Elves in Eregion (with Sauron's help), and the Elves at least were
making them for the Elves. :)  It is less clear what Sauron's motives
were in making them, but we do read (in "Of the Rings of Power and the
Third Age") that "his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to
bring them under his vigilance."  Further evidence comes from the fact
that Sauron only made war upon the Elves to seize the Rings after the
Elves stopped using them to avoid his control.

As a final argument, we must conclude that if the Nine were made for
men, then the Seven were made for dwarves.  However, we know that
Sauron's attempts to enslave the dwarves through their Rings failed:
if the Seven were made for dwarves, they certainly weren't made very
well. :)
						Steuard Jensen

######

From: stephen@nomail.msu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: 12 Dec 2000 05:24:08 GMT
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: Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
:> 
:> "Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
:> news:3A317373.F3FEDAA0@dana.ucc.nau.edu...
:> 
:> > Where does it say that the Nine were not the least of the rings?
:> 
:> In addition to the 20 Great Rings (9+7+3+1 = 20) there were other
:> lesser rings which, like the One, had no gemstone.  The lack of
:> gemstone meant that the One could be mistaken for one of the lesser
:> Rings until various tests / evidences to the contrary were observed.
:> 

Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
: Yes, I knew that.  WHat I meant was the least of the great rings...

Is there any evidence of that in the texts?  As far as I now,
there is no statement relating the Nine and the Seven.  I suppose
one could argue that Sauron gave the more potent rings to the Dwarves
realizing that Dwarves would be harder to subdue, and also the Seven
were apparently hidden better than the Nine were, but that is
not all that much of an argument. 

Stephen

######

From: Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 10:58:38 -0700
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The Nazgul would have been the least powerful of Dwarvish and elvish
wraiths...

stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote:
> 
> : Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
> :>
> :> "Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
> :> news:3A317373.F3FEDAA0@dana.ucc.nau.edu...
> :>
> :> > Where does it say that the Nine were not the least of the rings?
> :>
> :> In addition to the 20 Great Rings (9+7+3+1 = 20) there were other
> :> lesser rings which, like the One, had no gemstone.  The lack of
> :> gemstone meant that the One could be mistaken for one of the lesser
> :> Rings until various tests / evidences to the contrary were observed.
> :>
> 
> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> : Yes, I knew that.  WHat I meant was the least of the great rings...
> 
> Is there any evidence of that in the texts?  As far as I now,
> there is no statement relating the Nine and the Seven.  I suppose
> one could argue that Sauron gave the more potent rings to the Dwarves
> realizing that Dwarves would be harder to subdue, and also the Seven
> were apparently hidden better than the Nine were, but that is
> not all that much of an argument.
> 
> Stephen

######

From: stephen@nomail.msu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: 12 Dec 2000 18:11:43 GMT
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Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
: The Nazgul would have been the least powerful of Dwarvish and elvish
: wraiths...

Why do you say that?  There were no Dwarvish or Elvish wraiths, so
there is no basis for a comparison.  In any case, that says nothing
about the relative power of the Seven and the Nine.

Stephen

: stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote:
:> Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
:> : Yes, I knew that.  WHat I meant was the least of the great rings...
:> 
:> Is there any evidence of that in the texts?  As far as I now,
:> there is no statement relating the Nine and the Seven.  I suppose
:> one could argue that Sauron gave the more potent rings to the Dwarves
:> realizing that Dwarves would be harder to subdue, and also the Seven
:> were apparently hidden better than the Nine were, but that is
:> not all that much of an argument.
:> 
:> Stephen

######

From: Skylar Thompson <skylar@attglobal.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:16:11 GMT
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

On 12-12-00, 17:58:38, Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote=
=20
regarding Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?:



> stephen@nomail.msu.edu wrote:
> >
> > : Conrad Dunkerson wrote:
> > :>
> > :> "Michael Keith Vogler" <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote in message
> > :> news:3A317373.F3FEDAA0@dana.ucc.nau.edu...
> > :>
> > :> > Where does it say that the Nine were not the least of the rings=
?
> > :>
> > :> In addition to the 20 Great Rings (9+7+3+1 =3D 20) there were oth=
er
> > :> lesser rings which, like the One, had no gemstone.  The lack of
> > :> gemstone meant that the One could be mistaken for one of the less=
er
> > :> Rings until various tests / evidences to the contrary were observ=
ed.
> > :>
> >
> > Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> > : Yes, I knew that.  WHat I meant was the least of the great rings..=
.
> >
> > Is there any evidence of that in the texts?  As far as I now,
> > there is no statement relating the Nine and the Seven.  I suppose
> > one could argue that Sauron gave the more potent rings to the Dwarve=
s
> > realizing that Dwarves would be harder to subdue, and also the Seven=

> > were apparently hidden better than the Nine were, but that is
> > not all that much of an argument.
> >
> > Stephen
> The Nazgul would have been the least powerful of Dwarvish and elvish
> wraiths...

How can you justify this?

--=20
Skylar Thompson,
eMail: skylar@attglobal.net

`All that is gold does not glitter/Not all who wander are lost
The old that is strong does not wither/Deep roots are not reached by=20=

the frost
From the ashes a fire shall be woken/A light from the shadows shall=20
spring
Renewed shall be blade that was broken/The crownless again shall be=20
king.'

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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<stephen@nomail.msu.edu> wrote in message
news:90ud0j$2nl$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu...

> To me, "a different power and purpose" implies that the Three
> Rings were quite different than the others.

It does... at which I might suppose that Tolkien originally
intended only the Three to have the whole 'hold back time' purpose
and the other Rings were crafted with different aims.  This is not
so far-fetched as it might seem... originally all the Rings were
crafted personally by Sauron and handed out to the various races.
The idea of the Elves having made them under Sauron's instruction
came later, and started out with Sauron having made some and the
Elves having made some.  So it is possible that some of the texts
hearken back to the original conception, but that when Tolkien
settled on the Elves having made all the Rings he eventually had
to give them a common purpose.

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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"Steuard Jensen" <sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:P1GY5.247$E3.4222@uchinews...

> I'd thought (up to now, at least) that the Elves' world-weariness
> was caused more or less directly by the decay and change in the
> world around them.

I think of it as being very closely related to the fading and world
weariness that even the Valar eventually felt... and in Aman at
that.  Since Aman changes slowly if at all I'd think this was more
a factor of their 'spirits aging' and slowly growing wearied with
endless existence within the world.  A direct spiritual
diminishment rather than a perceptual weariness with everchanging
surroundings.

> Well... at any rate, that's why I've seen the direct connection
> between the two effects of the Rings: I assumed that the Rings
> themselves only slowed decay, and that the reduction in the
> Elves' world-weariness was purely a consequence of that.

As noted I've always considered it more of a 'spiritual
preservation' effect... something which counteracted the 'fading'.

> On the other hand, I think that to some degree the differences
> between Lorien and Rivendell and, well, Gandalf's use of Narya
> could have been the result of choices on the part of the Ring
> weilders and of the populations of those communities.

Certainly.  My breakdown of 'balance of effects' from the different
Elven Rings is entirely speculative... there could be any number
of reasons for apparent differences of effect (and we are assuming
many of those effects in any case).

######

From: Skylar Thompson <skylar@attglobal.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

On 12-13-00, 07:16:47, "Androg" <androg at mail dot com> wrote regarding=
=20
Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?:


> Skylar Thompson <skylar@attglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:20001212.16161105@mis.configured.host...
> >On 12-12-00, 17:58:38, Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu>=20=

wrote
> >>
> >> The Nazgul would have been the least powerful of Dwarvish and elvis=
h
> >> wraiths...
> >
> >How can you justify this?

> Simple. The Dwarves and Elves would not have become wraiths; only men =

would
> (including hobbits in the category of men, because for all intents and=

> purposes they were men, with a few genetic differences). Therefore the=

> Nazgul, the wraiths of men, would have been the least powerful. Of=20=

course,
> they would have been the most powerful also. In a set with one member=

> comparatives mean nothing.

I see. I thought you were stating the existence of Dwarven and Elven=20=

wraiths. I'm not sure if the Dwarven and Elven wraiths would have been=20=

more powerful; certainly the elves would be less willing to work evil,=20=

so wouldn't they have held back more than the human wraiths?

--=20
Skylar Thompson,
eMail: skylar@attglobal.net

`All that is gold does not glitter/Not all who wander are lost
The old that is strong does not wither/Deep roots are not reached by=20=

the frost
From the ashes a fire shall be woken/A light from the shadows shall=20
spring
Renewed shall be blade that was broken/The crownless again shall be=20
king.'

######

From: "Androg" <androg at mail dot com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
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Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 18:16:47 +1100
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Skylar Thompson <skylar@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:20001212.16161105@mis.configured.host...
>On 12-12-00, 17:58:38, Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote
>>
>> The Nazgul would have been the least powerful of Dwarvish and elvish
>> wraiths...
>
>How can you justify this?

Simple. The Dwarves and Elves would not have become wraiths; only men would
(including hobbits in the category of men, because for all intents and
purposes they were men, with a few genetic differences). Therefore the
Nazgul, the wraiths of men, would have been the least powerful. Of course,
they would have been the most powerful also. In a set with one member
comparatives mean nothing.

--
Andróg

"Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncúthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescéne land,
eardgeard elfa, and ésa bliss."

######

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Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen)
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Michael Keith Vogler <mkv@dana.ucc.nau.edu> wrote:
> > >> The Nazgul would have been the least powerful of Dwarvish and elvish
> > >> wraiths...

Skylar Thompson <skylar@attglobal.net> wrote:
> > >How can you justify this?
 
On 12-13-00, 07:16:47, "Androg" <androg at mail dot com> wrote:
> > Simple. The Dwarves and Elves would not have become wraiths...

Quoth Skylar Thompson <skylar@attglobal.net> in article
<20001213.6294639@mis.configured.host>: 
> I see. I thought you were stating the existence of Dwarven and Elven 
> wraiths.

I would point out, just for the record, that Androg was probably
speaking tongue in cheek: as you can see from the attributions above,
Androg was _not_ the one who made the original claim that you objected
to. :)  For the record, I agree with both your objection and Androg's
response.  I certainly got the impression that Michael Keith Vogler
was arguing that Dwarven and Elven wraiths somehow existed (or could
have).

Interestingly, it seems that the Elves did eventually fade and enter a
wraithlike state.  However, _those_ wraiths seem to lack direct power,
even that of fear.
						Steuard Jensen

######

From: "Roberto Ullfig" <robo@suba.com>
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Subject: Re: Nazgul didn't have the Rings!?!?! Where's proof?
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I didn't read this entire thread so someone else may have brought it up but
there is some proof in the Letters that the Nazgul did NOT wear the rings:

from Letter 246:

(In a section of this letter Tolkien discusses a possible confrontation
between Frodo and the Nazgul on Mount Doom)

    "Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence,
nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or
feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their
errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which
he held) had primary control of their wills...."

"which he held" in the above paragraph would make little literary sense
unless it was actually referring to Sauron physically holding the rings.

---
Roberto Ullfig - robo@suba.com
http://www.suba.com/~robo

"zero4ever25" <zero_ont@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:906ftj$nq7$1@nnrp1.deja.com...
:
:
:     Where is the proof in the books that Saruon held the 9 Nazgul rings
: in the Dark Tower? I always though that they were on the fingers of the
: Nine! It seems way too odd for them not to have the Rings themselves,
: since they were "Ringwraths"...
:
:
: --
: "And I knew the Silence of the World"
: -------zero4ever25
: (a.k.a. tony bower)
:
:
: Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
: Before you buy.

######

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"Steuard Jensen" <sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:FtOZ5.13$v3.196@uchinews...
> For the record, I agree with both your objection and Androg's
> response.  I certainly got the impression that Michael Keith
> Vogler was arguing that Dwarven and Elven wraiths somehow existed
> (or could have).

Well... they 'could have' in the sense that Tolkien did once
consider the idea at least of "elf-wraiths".  The idea appeared in
the earliest drafts of LotR, but was fairly explicitly rejected (in
a discussion on the Rings allowing Elves to choose to appear in
either world rather than being forced permanently into the unseen
as with humans) early on and obviously did not appear in the final
version.