From: jaaguke@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Finnish influence on Tolkien languages. Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:00:58 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <8vgjim$kpd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.40.133.134 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Nov 22 14:00:58 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14 i686) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 cache.eenet.ee:3128 (Squid/2.3.STABLE4-hno), 1.0 x56.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 193.40.253.97, 193.40.133.134 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDjaaguke Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:29590 The biographies of Tolkien claim that his linguistic thinking was greatly influenced by Finnish language. I have met incidental mentions here that many posters here are Finns and I've noted that there is a (presumably) Finnish language NG on Tolkien. How far did Tolkien ever understand Finnish language? For example, an Elven word that sounds fairly Finnish as well as fairly Estonian is the proper name Iluvatar. But the ending -tar indicates females both in Estonian and Finnish, while Iluvatar seems to have been (sorry - He is still around, and shall ever be) a male being. Is there any indication Tolkien realized this fact? Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Hallaril Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Finnish influence on Tolkien languages. Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 18:30:37 +0200 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 13 Message-ID: <3A1BF4AD.3FACF34E@hotmail.com> References: <8vgjim$kpd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: majuri.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 974910584 5287 128.214.204.67 (22 Nov 2000 16:29:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Nov 2000 16:29:44 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:29583 jaaguke@my-deja.com wrote: > snip For example, an > Elven word that sounds fairly Finnish as well as fairly Estonian is the > proper name Iluvatar. But the ending -tar indicates females both in > Estonian and Finnish, while Iluvatar seems to have been (sorry - He is > still around, and shall ever be) a male being. Is there any indication > Tolkien realized this fact? this is quite interesting. I read Silmarillion the first time in Finnish. And I always, in my mind, pictured Iluvatar as a female. i was quite dismayed when I read the book in English and noticed that Tolkien referred to _her_ with the masculine pronoun. How have you others who first read the book in finnish pictured her? ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue Wïzards Cult) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Finnish influence on Tolkien languages. Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 08:48:51 -0800 Organization: Will pointlessly annoy people for food. Message-ID: References: <8vgjim$kpd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A1BF4AD.3FACF34E@hotmail.com> X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!c167.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:29612 / > Elven word that sounds fairly Finnish as well as fairly Estonian is the / > proper name Iluvatar. But the ending -tar indicates females both in / > Estonian and Finnish, while Iluvatar seems to have been (sorry - He is / > still around, and shall ever be) a male being. Is there any indication / > Tolkien realized this fact? vatar seems similar to the IE *pet@r. =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Sign up for WASHINGTON MUTUAL BANK's special We Rob You While You Sleep Service TODAY! =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 pretty pretty http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/ All new and improved web pages! Bookmark yours today! :)-free zone. Elect LUM World Dictator! ###### From: Nicolas Masson Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Finnish influence on Tolkien languages. Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 21:01:52 +0100 Organization: Ecole Centrale Paris : Grde Voie des Vignes, 92295 Chatenay-Malabry Cdx Lines: 13 Message-ID: <3A1C2630.F1DF4FFC@cti.ecp.fr> References: <8vgjim$kpd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A1BF4AD.3FACF34E@hotmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: masson.via.ecp.fr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: smilodon.ecp.fr 974923187 21056 138.195.137.240 (22 Nov 2000 19:59:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: ingesys@cti.ecp.fr NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Nov 2000 19:59:47 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!freenix!jussieu.fr!news.ecp.fr!smilodon.ecp.fr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:29633 Hallaril wrote: > I read Silmarillion the first time in > Finnish. And I always, in my mind, pictured Iluvatar as a female. i was > quite dismayed when I read the book in English and noticed that Tolkien > referred to _her_ with the masculine pronoun. How have you others who > first read the book in finnish pictured her? Are there no masculine/feminine pronoums in Finnish ? -- Nicolas Masson "Signature en travaux" ###### From: Hallaril Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Finnish influence on Tolkien languages. Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 22:31:35 +0200 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 13 Message-ID: <3A1C2D27.8CECC0A6@hotmail.com> References: <8vgjim$kpd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A1BF4AD.3FACF34E@hotmail.com> <3A1C2630.F1DF4FFC@cti.ecp.fr> NNTP-Posting-Host: vaakuna.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 974925042 19296 128.214.182.236 (22 Nov 2000 20:30:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Nov 2000 20:30:42 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!209.249.123.233.MISMATCH!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!newspharm.inet.tele.dk.MISMATCH!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!news.wineasy.se!newsfeed.wineasy.se!news.clinet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:29644 Nicolas Masson wrote: > > Hallaril wrote: > > I read Silmarillion the first time in > > Finnish. And I always, in my mind, pictured Iluvatar as a female. i was > > quite dismayed when I read the book in English and noticed that Tolkien > > referred to _her_ with the masculine pronoun. How have you others who > > first read the book in finnish pictured her? > > Are there no masculine/feminine pronoums in Finnish ? No ###### From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8vgjim$kpd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Finnish influence on Tolkien languages. Lines: 12 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 21:10:49 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.196.78 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 975011155 195.82.196.78 (Thu, 23 Nov 2000 21:25:55 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 21:25:55 MET Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news-hub.siol.net!newscore.univie.ac.at!130.227.3.83.MISMATCH!neel.uni2.net!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:29660 skrev i en meddelelse news:8vgjim$kpd$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > But the ending -tar indicates females both in Estonian and Finnish, [...] So our Alatar being female chimes well with the Estonian and Finnish language senses, although Tolkien's character Alatar was an Ista, a Maia in male form. :-) Korppi. ###### From: "Alatar" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Finnish influence on Tolkien languages. Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 13:25:11 -0000 Organization: Customer of Energis Squared Lines: 29 Message-ID: <8vog02$r4f$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <8vgjim$kpd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-38.fluvoxamine.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news5.svr.pol.co.uk 975160130 27791 62.136.207.38 (25 Nov 2000 13:48:50 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 2000 13:48:50 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!news.vas-net.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:29701 Raven wrote: > skrev i en meddelelse > news:8vgjim$kpd$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > But the ending -tar indicates females both in Estonian and Finnish, > [...] > So our Alatar being female chimes well with the Estonian and Finnish > language senses, Generally, people often assume I'm male from that name, but I'll start paying attention to if the Fins I talk to tend to assume I'm female (or at least, tend to not be so quick to assume I'm male). >although Tolkien's character Alatar was an Ista, a Maia > in male form. :-) In male form and in human form. But we know Alatar wasn't really a human, and was unlikely to be known by the name 'Alatar' as an istar. We can't assume much just from which form it was decided would be the most appropriate to do the job. -- Alatar I just got lost in thought, it was unfamiliar territory. Find that Tolkien site in The Cave of Lost Scrolls: http://www.istari.f9.co.uk/tolkien/ ###### From: Hallaril Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Finnish influence on Tolkien languages. Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 16:42:29 +0200 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3A1FCFD5.C8FE9773@hotmail.com> References: <8vgjim$kpd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8vog02$r4f$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: kapteeni.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 975163295 17324 128.214.204.75 (25 Nov 2000 14:41:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 2000 14:41:35 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!news.wineasy.se!newsfeed.wineasy.se!news.clinet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:29698 Alatar wrote: > > In male form and in human form. But we know Alatar wasn't really a human, > and was unlikely to be known by the name 'Alatar' as an istar. We can't > assume much just from which form it was decided would be the most > appropriate to do the job. I can't think of anything better to say than to quote directly from the Silmarillion: "But when they desire to clothe themselves the Valar take upon them forms some as of male and some as of female; for that difference of temper they had even from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in the choice of each, not made by the choice, even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment but is not made thereby." I would suppose the same applies to maiar also. ###### From: "Alatar" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Finnish influence on Tolkien languages. Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 15:26:17 -0000 Organization: Customer of Energis Squared Lines: 42 Message-ID: <8voleq$vm8$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <8vgjim$kpd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8vog02$r4f$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <3A1FCFD5.C8FE9773@hotmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-38.fluvoxamine.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news8.svr.pol.co.uk 975165722 32456 62.136.207.38 (25 Nov 2000 15:22:02 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 2000 15:22:02 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:29702 Hallaril wrote: > Alatar wrote: > > > > > In male form and in human form. But we know Alatar wasn't really a human, > > and was unlikely to be known by the name 'Alatar' as an istar. We can't > > assume much just from which form it was decided would be the most > > appropriate to do the job. > > I can't think of anything better to say than to quote directly from the > Silmarillion: > > > "But when they desire to clothe themselves the Valar take upon them > forms some as of male and some as of female; for that difference of > temper they had even from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in > the choice of each, not made by the choice, even as with us male and > female may be shown by the raiment but is not made thereby." > > > I would suppose the same applies to maiar also. And? How are you interpreting this? "even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment but is not made thereby." This sounds like you don't change your gender just because you make yourself look like the opposite gender. Alatar is in the raiment of and old human male, but this has no bearing on Alatar's true temperment/gender.. a Valar (and probably Maia) can choose any raiment, that of a male or of a female, but _internally_ they don't (and can't) change. -- Alatar I just got lost in thought, it was unfamiliar territory. Find that Tolkien site in The Cave of Lost Scrolls: http://www.istari.f9.co.uk/tolkien/ ###### From: Hallaril Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Finnish influence on Tolkien languages. Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 18:34:53 +0200 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 36 Message-ID: <3A1FEA2D.C4C246E6@hotmail.com> References: <8vgjim$kpd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8vog02$r4f$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <3A1FCFD5.C8FE9773@hotmail.com> <8voleq$vm8$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: suunta.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 975170040 23692 128.214.182.54 (25 Nov 2000 16:34:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Nov 2000 16:34:00 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!129.240.148.23!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!news1.global-one.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:29697 Alatar wrote: > > Hallaril wrote: > > Alatar wrote: snip > > I can't think of anything better to say than to quote directly from the > > Silmarillion: > > > > > > "But when they desire to clothe themselves the Valar take upon them > > forms some as of male and some as of female; for that difference of > > temper they had even from their beginning, and it is but bodied forth in > > the choice of each, not made by the choice, even as with us male and > > female may be shown by the raiment but is not made thereby." > > > > > > I would suppose the same applies to maiar also. > > And? How are you interpreting this? > > "even as with us male and female may be shown by the raiment but is not made > thereby." > This sounds like you don't change your gender just because you make yourself > look like the opposite gender. Alatar is in the raiment of and old human > male, but this has no bearing on Alatar's true temperment/gender.. a Valar > (and probably Maia) can choose any raiment, that of a male or of a female, > but _internally_ they don't (and can't) change. My English, as has been said before, is far from perfect, but: Some take the form of male and some of female; because that difference of character they had from the beginning. I would suppose that the latter clause explains why the Valar take the form of either male or female. ###### From: Anne Meriluoto Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Finnish influence on Tolkien languages. Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 18:36:56 +0200 Organization: Helsinki Television Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3A1FEAA8.6C5BD11B@pp.htv.fi> References: <8vgjim$kpd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.90.65.187 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!news1.pp.htv.fi!news Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:29692 jaaguke@my-deja.com wrote: > > The biographies of Tolkien claim that his linguistic thinking was > greatly influenced by Finnish language. > I have met incidental mentions here that many posters here are Finns and > I've noted that there is a (presumably) Finnish language NG on Tolkien. > How far did Tolkien ever understand Finnish language? J.R.R. Tolkien quotes lines of Kalevala in his essay "A Secret Vice" (published in "The Monsters and Critics") and he says that he specially enjoys the phonetic tune of Finnish. The quote is in fact a little wrong, but it seems that he has read Kalevala in Finnish. Of how much he understood and how much he just enjoyed the sense of the words, I am not sure. The are some similarities between Finnish and Quenya both in the vocabulary and grammar. For example: Rauta (Q.)=metal; rauta (F.)= iron. Or lapse(Q.)=a baby; lapsi (F.)= a child. It seems that Tolkien has understood the meaning of these Finnish words and used them while creating his own vocabulary. Quenya has a bit of Finnish in it, with something else...Latin? And yes, it took me 15 years to notice that Iluvatar is not a female being! Namaarie! Anne ###### From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8vgjim$kpd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8vog02$r4f$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> <3A1FCFD5.C8FE9773@hotmail.com> <8voleq$vm8$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <3A1FEA2D.C4C246E6@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Finnish influence on Tolkien languages. Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 21:14:12 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.223.68 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 975183500 195.82.223.68 (Sat, 25 Nov 2000 21:18:20 MET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 21:18:20 MET Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!neel.uni2.net!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:29719 "Hallaril" skrev i en meddelelse news:3A1FEA2D.C4C246E6@hotmail.com... > Some take the form of male and some of female; because that difference > of character they had from the beginning. > I would suppose that the latter clause explains why the Valar take the > form of either male or female. But it does not preclude a form of advanced cross-dressing. Remember that the Istari were basically undercover Maiar. There is nothing to prevent the Maia Alatar from being of female character, yet putting shirt and tie on for her mission in Middle-earth. Nor is there anything to prevent an etext author from revealing Aruman as a woman dressed up as a *male* headmaster, or Manwë from going to a party in the "raiment" of a very seductive woman, causing great embarrassment among the straight male guests who made passes at "her" --- Korppi. ###### From: "Androg" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8vgjim$kpd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A1FEAA8.6C5BD11B@pp.htv.fi> Subject: Re: Finnish influence on Tolkien languages. Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 17:12:25 +1100 Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com Message-ID: <3a20aa04@casper.southcom.com.au> X-Trace: 26 Nov 2000 06:13:24 GMT, delta.tavultesoft.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.labyrinth.net.au!casper.southcom.com.au!delta.tavultesoft.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:29721 Anne Meriluoto wrote in message news:3A1FEAA8.6C5BD11B@pp.htv.fi... > > And yes, it took me 15 years to notice that Iluvatar is not a female > being! I suppose the people who translated it into Finnish should have paid more attention to it. -- Andróg "Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncúthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescéne land, eardgeard elfa, and ésa bliss." ###### From: "Morgil" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8vgjim$kpd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A1FEAA8.6C5BD11B@pp.htv.fi> <3a20aa04@casper.southcom.com.au> Subject: Re: Finnish influence on Tolkien languages. Lines: 24 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 20:56:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.197.65.189 X-Trace: read2.inet.fi 975272177 194.197.65.189 (Sun, 26 Nov 2000 22:56:17 EET) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 22:56:17 EET Organization: Sonera corp Internet services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!news.wineasy.se!newsfeed.wineasy.se!news.clinet.fi!levitin.saunalahti.fi!nntp.teliafi.net!nntp.inet.fi!central.inet.fi!inet.fi!read2.inet.fi.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:29748 Androg > kirjoitti viestissä <3a20aa04@casper.southcom.com.au>... >Anne Meriluoto wrote in message >news:3A1FEAA8.6C5BD11B@pp.htv.fi... >> >> And yes, it took me 15 years to notice that Iluvatar is not a female >> being! > >I suppose the people who translated it into Finnish should have paid more >attention to it. I think translator did all she could do. There really shouldn´t be any reason to think "tar" in the name Iluvatar would mean Eru was a female. I´ll show you. If Iluvatar would mean she is a female, a possessive case would be "Iluva-/ttaren". But since it is only a name, it is translated "Iluvatar-/in". Morgil ###### From: Hallaril Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Finnish influence on Tolkien languages. Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 00:14:31 +0200 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 14 Message-ID: <3A218B47.7F9E48B3@hotmail.com> References: <8vgjim$kpd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A1FEAA8.6C5BD11B@pp.htv.fi> <3a20aa04@casper.southcom.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: snau.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 975276815 6001 128.214.189.3 (26 Nov 2000 22:13:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Nov 2000 22:13:35 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!news.wineasy.se!newsfeed.wineasy.se!news.clinet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:29746 Androg wrote: > > Anne Meriluoto wrote in message > news:3A1FEAA8.6C5BD11B@pp.htv.fi... > > > > And yes, it took me 15 years to notice that Iluvatar is not a female > > being! > > I suppose the people who translated it into Finnish should have paid more > attention to it. HOW, there are no gender specific pronouns in Finnish. hallaril ###### From: "Androg" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8vgjim$kpd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A1FEAA8.6C5BD11B@pp.htv.fi> <3a20aa04@casper.southcom.com.au> <3A218B47.7F9E48B3@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Finnish influence on Tolkien languages. Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 02:09:46 +1100 Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com Message-ID: <3a22797e@casper.southcom.com.au> X-Trace: 27 Nov 2000 15:10:54 GMT, delta.tavultesoft.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.labyrinth.net.au!casper.southcom.com.au!delta.tavultesoft.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:29765 Hallaril wrote in message news:3A218B47.7F9E48B3@hotmail.com... > Androg wrote: > > > > Anne Meriluoto wrote in message > > news:3A1FEAA8.6C5BD11B@pp.htv.fi... > > > > > > And yes, it took me 15 years to notice that Iluvatar is not a female > > > being! > > > > I suppose the people who translated it into Finnish should have paid more > > attention to it. > > HOW, there are no gender specific pronouns in Finnish. Perhaps changing the name to remove the feminine ending? -- Andróg "Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncúthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescéne land, eardgeard elfa, and ésa bliss." ###### From: Hallaril Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Finnish influence on Tolkien languages. Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 03:17:07 +0200 Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 29 Message-ID: <3A230793.22ECBD5E@hotmail.com> References: <8vgjim$kpd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A1FEAA8.6C5BD11B@pp.htv.fi> <3a20aa04@casper.southcom.com.au> <3A218B47.7F9E48B3@hotmail.com> <3a22797e@casper.southcom.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: kakku.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 975374172 16177 128.214.182.130 (28 Nov 2000 01:16:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Nov 2000 01:16:12 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!news.wineasy.se!newsfeed.wineasy.se!news.clinet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:29773 Androg wrote: > > Hallaril wrote in message > news:3A218B47.7F9E48B3@hotmail.com... > > Androg wrote: > > > > > > Anne Meriluoto wrote in message > > > news:3A1FEAA8.6C5BD11B@pp.htv.fi... > > > > > > > > And yes, it took me 15 years to notice that Iluvatar is not a female > > > > being! > > > > > > I suppose the people who translated it into Finnish should have paid > more > > > attention to it. > > > > HOW, there are no gender specific pronouns in Finnish. > > Perhaps changing the name to remove the feminine ending? Changing the proper name is, I think, not considered good among the translators. And there is more. Ilúvatar is in Quenya (Finnish) not in English, and she (the translator) translated from English to Finnish. Usually in these cases the other languages are not translated. A big (and to some the biggest) part of Tolkien's subcreation are his invented languages, would have never forgiven the tranlator had she tranlated Ilúvatar to Ilmari and Feanor to Seoppo and God forbid Luthien to Liisa. Hallaril ###### From: Matthew T Curtis Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Finnish influence on Tolkien languages. Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 08:56:21 +0000 Message-ID: <0fs62t0opas8kmhbqj4fi03i1502cnibkp@4ax.com> References: <8vgjim$kpd$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3A1FEAA8.6C5BD11B@pp.htv.fi> <3a20aa04@casper.southcom.com.au> <3A218B47.7F9E48B3@hotmail.com> <3a22797e@casper.southcom.com.au> <3A230793.22ECBD5E@hotmail.com> Reply-To: little.bleeder@mtcurtis.demon.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: mtcurtis.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: mtcurtis.demon.co.uk:193.237.215.90 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 975401814 nnrp-02:1676 NO-IDENT mtcurtis.demon.co.uk:193.237.215.90 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!mtcurtis.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:29807 On Tue, 28 Nov 2000 03:17:07 +0200, Hallaril wrote: >Androg wrote: >> >> Hallaril wrote in message >> news:3A218B47.7F9E48B3@hotmail.com... >> > Androg wrote: >> > > >> > > Anne Meriluoto wrote in message >> > > news:3A1FEAA8.6C5BD11B@pp.htv.fi... >> > > > >> > > > And yes, it took me 15 years to notice that Iluvatar is not a female >> > > > being! >> > > >> > > I suppose the people who translated it into Finnish should have paid >> more >> > > attention to it. >> > >> > HOW, there are no gender specific pronouns in Finnish. >> >> Perhaps changing the name to remove the feminine ending? > >Changing the proper name is, I think, not considered good among the >translators. > Heretic! Tolkien did it all the time in translating the Red Book of Westmarch: Bilba Labinzi > Bilbo Baggins, Maura Labinzi > Frodo Baggins, Banazir Galpsi> Samwise Gamgee, et cetera. -- Matthew T Curtis little.bleeder[at]mtcurtis.demon.co.uk HIV+ for 20 Glorious Years! The most scandalous charges were suppressed; the vicar of Christ was only accused of piracy, murder, rape, sodomy, and incest. - Edward Gibbon