From: everett_thiele@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: help pronouncing Galadriel Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 06:27:23 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <8s3lk7$p4p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.17.73.38 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Oct 12 06:27:23 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.5; Mac_PowerPC) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x53.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 195.17.73.38 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDeverett_thiele Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28350 Where should the stress go in the name Galadriel? My normal English habits lead me to want to place it on the antepenultimate (treating -dri- and -el as separate syllables) thus ga-LA-dri-el, with a secondary stress on -dri-. (or even worse, the 'frenchified' ga-la-dri-EL, like michelle and mirabelle) But if the language was modeled on Finnish then perhaps the stress should all fall on the first syllable: GA-la-dri-el. (with european vowel qualities and 'rolled' r of course). Anyone know the right answer? For some reason this problem is really bugging me. Help! regards, --Rett ... Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Message-ID: <39E5C788.30BD49F9@hotmail.com> From: Crypthanatopsis Organization: Elvish Linguistic Fellowship X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: help pronouncing Galadriel References: <8s3lk7$p4p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:15:36 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.234.152.176 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 971359118 199.234.152.176 (Thu, 12 Oct 2000 08:58:38 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 08:58:38 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28345 > Where should the stress go in the name Galadriel? My normal English > habits lead me to want to place it on the antepenultimate (treating > -dri- and -el as separate syllables) thus ga-LA-dri-el, with a secondary > stress on -dri-. (or even worse, the 'frenchified' ga-la-dri-EL, like > michelle and mirabelle) But if the language was modeled on Finnish then > perhaps the stress should all fall on the first syllable: GA-la-dri-el. > (with european vowel qualities and 'rolled' r of course). > > Anyone know the right answer? For some reason this problem is really > bugging me. Help! > The Qenya [sic] System There was an interchange between the (Cor-Elda) chief stress and secondary stress. The secondary stress appears to have been strong in Cor-eldarin, and able to stand on a syllable adjacent to that of the main stress. The practical results were a throwing frward of the accent, so that: (1) It could not be placed further back than the antepenult. (2) If favoured the penult if that syllable contained a long vowel either by quantity or position. (3) No adjacent syllables could hold a stress of any strength. In such words as _kandora a slight secondary initial accent does exist. (4) Vowels still preserved long which were by this change unaccented between two accents were shortened. (5) The accent might never be on the final syllable save in monosyllables and a final vowel bore no secondary stress though a slight beat is observed on final vowel + consonant in so-called dactylic words. _The Qenya Lexicon_ page 5 Hence, the true pronunciation is the one you didn't suggest: ga-la-DRI-el (see rule 2), with a secondary stress on "ga". -Crypthanatopsis ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: help pronouncing Galadriel References: <8s3lk7$p4p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39E5C788.30BD49F9@hotmail.com> Reply-To: coren@spdcc.com Organization: Pigs in Blankets From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Lines: 31 Message-ID: <1nkF5.48328$tn.887741@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 15:01:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.237.113 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 971362877 24.128.237.113 (Thu, 12 Oct 2000 11:01:17 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 11:01:17 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28367 In article <39E5C788.30BD49F9@hotmail.com>, Crypthanatopsis wrote: >> Where should the stress go in the name Galadriel? My normal English >> habits lead me to want to place it on the antepenultimate (treating >> -dri- and -el as separate syllables) thus ga-LA-dri-el, with a secondary >> stress on -dri-. (or even worse, the 'frenchified' ga-la-dri-EL, like >> michelle and mirabelle) But if the language was modeled on Finnish then >> perhaps the stress should all fall on the first syllable: GA-la-dri-el. >> (with european vowel qualities and 'rolled' r of course). >> >> Anyone know the right answer? For some reason this problem is really >> bugging me. Help! >> > >The Qenya [sic] System [citation snipped] >Hence, the true pronunciation is the one you didn't suggest: ga-la-DRI-el >(see rule 2), with a secondary stress on "ga". I've always said "ga-LAD-ri-el". If there's any secondary stress, it's very slight, and I would put it on the "el". This seems consistent with the rules for pronunciation of Elvish names given in the appendices of LotR. Is the name Quenya? I always thought it was Sindarin. -- ---Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)------- "Life is easy to chronicle, but bewildering to practice." --E. M. Forster, _A Room With a View_ ###### From: urban@panix.com (Michael Urban) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: help pronouncing Galadriel Date: 12 Oct 2000 12:10:16 -0400 Organization: PANIX -- Public Access Networks Corp. Lines: 46 Message-ID: <8s4np8$a9n$1@panix3.panix.com> References: <8s3lk7$p4p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39E5C788.30BD49F9@hotmail.com> <1nkF5.48328$tn.887741@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix3.panix.com X-Trace: news.panix.com 971367016 20693 166.84.0.228 (12 Oct 2000 16:10:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@panix.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Oct 2000 16:10:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!fu-berlin.de!howland.erols.net!panix!news.panix.com!panix3.panix.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28356 In article <1nkF5.48328$tn.887741@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, Robert S. Coren wrote: >In article <39E5C788.30BD49F9@hotmail.com>, >Crypthanatopsis wrote: >>> Anyone know the right answer? For some reason this problem is really >>> bugging me. Help! >> >>The Qenya [sic] System > >[citation snipped] > >>Hence, the true pronunciation is the one you didn't suggest: ga-la-DRI-el >>(see rule 2), with a secondary stress on "ga". > >I've always said "ga-LAD-ri-el". If there's any secondary stress, it's >very slight, and I would put it on the "el". This seems consistent >with the rules for pronunciation of Elvish names given in the >appendices of LotR. > >Is the name Quenya? I always thought it was Sindarin. Of course it is (there is no initial "G" in Quenya, for the most obvious give-away). And in any case, Qenya is not Quenya, and its rules should not be relied upon for resolving Quenya matters. I believe that your pronunciation is correct, but perhaps one of Tolkien's readings can resolve the issue definitively? I forget whether he ever spoke her name. One caution is that the natural American pronunciation of the name will tend to reduce the first syllable's "a" to a schwa, and use an "ash" vowel in the second syllable (and also, perhaps, to soften the "d" in the "dr" cluster to a "j"-like sound), so that we may end up hearing guh-LADGE-ree-el. Remember that the "a" is always as in "father", and the "d" is a "d". More like "gah-LAHD-ree-el", I imagine. The full pronunciation of the vowels will make the matter of stress less important in any case (I have heard that when a Japanese person wants to do a comical American accent, he will place exaggerated stress on the penult as in "K'r'SAwuh" for "Kurisawa" or whatever. I have not confirmed this). I expect that in the forthcoming motion picture, the actors will fail to observe such niceties. Appropriate for the Hobbits (except for Frodo's "great skill with foreign sounds"), but not the others. I also expect that none but the purists will care. Mike ###### From: Olli Pettay Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: help pronouncing Galadriel Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 19:18:44 +0300 Organization: SAUNALAHDEN asiakas Lines: 17 Message-ID: <39E5E464.37C2D944@helsinki.fi> References: <8s3lk7$p4p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39E5C788.30BD49F9@hotmail.com> <1nkF5.48328$tn.887741@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cmxviii.rdyn.saunalahti.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: tron.sci.fi 971367990 29590 195.197.136.18 (12 Oct 2000 16:26:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@saunalahti.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Oct 2000 16:26:30 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!uutiset.saunalahti.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28344 I agree with you. And the name Galadriel is Sindarin. Quenya-version is Altáriel, and Teleri-version is Alatáriel. O.P. > I've always said "ga-LAD-ri-el". If there's any secondary stress, it's > very slight, and I would put it on the "el". This seems consistent > with the rules for pronunciation of Elvish names given in the > appendices of LotR. > > Is the name Quenya? I always thought it was Sindarin. > -- > ---Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)------- > "Life is easy to chronicle, but bewildering to practice." > --E. M. Forster, _A Room With a View_ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: help pronouncing Galadriel References: <8s3lk7$p4p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39E5C788.30BD49F9@hotmail.com> <1nkF5.48328$tn.887741@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <8s4np8$a9n$1@panix3.panix.com> Reply-To: coren@spdcc.com Organization: Pigs in Blankets From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Lines: 23 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 19:55:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.237.113 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 971380550 24.128.237.113 (Thu, 12 Oct 2000 15:55:50 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 15:55:50 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28368 In article <8s4np8$a9n$1@panix3.panix.com>, Michael Urban wrote: >In article <1nkF5.48328$tn.887741@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, >Robert S. Coren wrote: >> >>I've always said "ga-LAD-ri-el". If there's any secondary stress, it's >>very slight, and I would put it on the "el". This seems consistent >>with the rules for pronunciation of Elvish names given in the >>appendices of LotR. >I believe that your pronunciation is correct, but perhaps one of >Tolkien's readings can resolve the issue definitively? I forget >whether he ever spoke her name. Well, a small caveat: I've never heard any of his readings, but I've been told (maybe I read it here) that on at least one recording he said SAW-ron, in direct contradiction to what he wrote in the Appendix. -- ---Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)------- "Pass a moose through a fine sieve, add 3 beaten egg whites and a cup of light cream. Stir thoroughly and put into individual ramekins. Serves 53, more or less." -- Robert Gilbert, _Moose Mousse_ ###### Message-ID: <39E6FB01.21D29637@hotmail.com> From: Crypthanatopsis Organization: Elvish Linguistic Fellowship X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: help pronouncing Galadriel References: <8s3lk7$p4p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39E5C788.30BD49F9@hotmail.com> <1nkF5.48328$tn.887741@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <39E5E464.37C2D944@helsinki.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 7 Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 08:07:29 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.234.152.186 X-Trace: newsfeed.slurp.net 971437792 199.234.152.186 (Fri, 13 Oct 2000 06:49:52 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 06:49:52 CDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.slurp.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28343 > I agree with you. And the name Galadriel is Sindarin. Quenya-version is > Altáriel, and Teleri-version is Alatáriel. Oh yes, that's true. I had forgotten about that. What a silly bunt. -Brypthanatopsis ###### From: everett_thiele@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: help pronouncing Galadriel Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 08:45:11 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 33 Message-ID: <8sbqqm$312$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8s3lk7$p4p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39E5C788.30BD49F9@hotmail.com> <1nkF5.48328$tn.887741@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> <39E5E464.37C2D944@helsinki.fi> <39E6FB01.21D29637@hotmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.17.73.65 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Oct 15 08:45:11 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.5; Mac_PowerPC) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x63.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 195.17.73.65 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDeverett_thiele Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28385 In article <39E6FB01.21D29637@hotmail.com>, Crypthanatopsis wrote: > > I agree with you. And the name Galadriel is Sindarin. Quenya-version is > > Altáriel, and Teleri-version is Alatáriel. > > Oh yes, that's true. I had forgotten about that. What a silly bunt. > -Brypthanatopsis > > In any case, your stab at it provoked very helpful discussion. Thanks to everyone who replied. Here's one further followup question, in case there are any takers. I have a faint memory that Sindarin was initially modelled on the Welsh language. Could this provide any clues to where the stress should lie in 'Galadriel'? Is the name a phonemically viable Welsh word, and how would it be pronounced in that case? Also, proper names are notorious for breaking the ordinary rules of their languages. This could perhaps be used as an explanation if a Tolkien recording used an idiosyncratic pronounciation. After all, the names might have just 'come' to him first, and then he'd construct a justification after the fact. Is there a recording out there where T. uses the word? thx again, --Rett ..... Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.