From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Tengwar in Unicode Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 04:23:09 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 17 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.82 X-Server-Date: 1 Oct 2000 08:22:05 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27876 Over on comp.lang.c++.moderated, someone mistyped "elven characters" for "eleven characters", and others picked up on it. The thread is 'Re: "hello world" prog compiles to 111k!!!' and the two messages (so far) of Tolkien interest are archived at http://x52.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=675705045 and http://x52.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=675944268 -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Drulúk the Half-Orc Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tengwar in Unicode Organization: University of Mordor, College of Military Sciences Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lines: 57 Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 09:18:19 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.55.38.214 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 970823975 210.55.38.214 (Fri, 06 Oct 2000 22:19:35 NZDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 22:19:35 NZDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ihug.co.nz!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28174 Stan Brown charged onto the battlefield, raised his/her lance, and shouted this battle cry: > Over on comp.lang.c++.moderated, someone mistyped "elven characters" > for "eleven characters", and others picked up on it. The thread is > 'Re: "hello world" prog compiles to 111k!!!' and the two messages > (so far) of Tolkien interest are archived at > > http://x52.deja.com/=3Ddnc/getdoc.xp?AN=3D675705045 > > and > > http://x52.deja.com/=3Ddnc/getdoc.xp?AN=3D675944268 Yep. Your links refer to the following proposal to add Tengwar to plane 1 of of ISO/IEC 10646-2. http://anubis.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC2/WG2/docs/n1641/n1641.htm My sig below uses this proposed encoding. I recommend you check the links at http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/4948/tenghall.htm and in particular the paragraph >' Michael Everson's proposal to add Tengwar to the ConScript Unicode >' Registry (Private Use Area). >' This was followed by the Second proposal. Which was then followed by >' a Third proposal and a discussion of vowel representation and modes >' (You will need to download: Adobe Acrobat to read some of these >' documents.) Drul=C3=BAk the Half-Orc --=20 =F0=9C=B0=AA=F0=9C=B1=80=F0=9C=B0=90=F0=9C=B0=9F=F0=9C=B1=80=F0=9C=B0=87= =F0=9C=B0=84=F0=9C=B0=94=F0=9C=B1=88=F0=9C=B0=85=F0=9C=B0=80=F0=9C=B1=80= =F0=9C=B0=9A=F0=9C=B1=88=F0=9C=B0=83=F0=9C=B1=89 =F0=9C=B0=AA=F0=9C=B1=80=F0=9C=B0=90=F0=9C=B0=9F=F0=9C=B1=80=F0=9C=B0=87= =F0=9C=B0=87=F0=9C=B0=85=F0=9C=B1=84=F0=9C=B1=8C=F0=9C=B0=80=F0=9C=B1=80= =F0=9C=B0=9A=F0=9C=B1=88 =F0=9C=B0=AA=F0=9C=B1=80=F0=9C=B0=90=F0=9C=B0=9F=F0=9C=B1=80=F0=9C=B0=87= =F0=9C=B0=88=F0=9C=B0=98=F0=9C=B0=83=F0=9C=B1=80=F0=9C=B0=80=F0=9C=B1=80= =F0=9C=B0=9A=F0=9C=B1=88=F0=9C=B0=83=F0=9C=B1=89 =F0=9C=B0=AF=F0=9C=B1=80=F0=9C=B0=85=F0=9C=B0=94=F0=9C=B1=88=F0=9C=B0=9E= =F0=9C=B0=91=F0=9C=B1=88=F0=9C=B0=AA=F0=9C=B1=84=F0=9C=B0=A5=F0=9C=B1=84= =F0=9C=B0=83=F0=9C=B0=98=F0=9C=B0=81=F0=9C=B1=84=F0=9C=B1=8C=F0=9C=B0=80= =F0=9C=B1=80=F0=9C=B0=9A=F0=9C=B1=88 ###### From: "Bart Coppens" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tengwar in Unicode Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 11:13:08 +0200 Organization: Planet Internet NV Lines: 9 Message-ID: <8rpe5d$7qu$1@news.planetinternet.be> References: <8rn2k4$ena$1@news.planetinternet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: u212-239-145-248.dialup.planetinternet.be X-Trace: news.planetinternet.be 970996717 8030 212.239.145.248 (8 Oct 2000 09:18:37 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@planetinternet.be NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Oct 2000 09:18:37 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!128.39.3.166!uninett.no!newsfeed1.enitel.no!masternews.telia.net!news-sto.telia.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.kpnbelgium.be!planetinternet.be!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28272 Stan Brown schreef in berichtnieuws MPG.144961a13077291f98b8b1@news.mindspring.com... > Bart Coppens wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > Did you miss the word "proposed" in what you quoted? Oh, sorry. I thought when he used the encoding, it was already there. Bart ###### From: =?utf-8?Q?Drul=C3=BAk_the_Half=2DOrc?= Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tengwar in Unicode Organization: University of Mordor, College of Military Sciences Message-ID: References: <8rn2k4$ena$1@news.planetinternet.be> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 50 Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 19:08:52 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.55.151.44 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 971032133 210.55.151.44 (Mon, 09 Oct 2000 08:08:53 NZDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 08:08:53 NZDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28290 Bart Coppens charged onto the battlefield, raised his/her lance, and shouted this battle cry: > >My sig below uses this proposed encoding. > Sorry, but I only get rectangles and no tengwar. Why? Firstly, the font you use does not contain Tengwar characters -- or at least not in the Unicode positions specified in this proposed standard. When your font does not contain certain characters, you get rectangles instead. I could also add that this encoding is only a proposal, and not an accepted standard. Even if the above problems are overcome in future, there is yet another problem. Much Unicode-compatible software only handles 16-bit Unicode. This means that it only handles Unicode characters from #0 to #65535. This proposed encoding is in the range #117760 to #117887. which means that much Unicode-compatible software will not handle it. In particular, the Microsoft software which you are using will not handle these Unicode characters. Drulúk the Half-Orc -- This sig uses a different encoding,in the 16-bit Unicode "private use area". This encoding can be found at http://www.egt.ie/standards/csur/tengwar.html Software that only handles 16-bit Unicode will be able to handle this, providing the font you use contains Tengwar characters in the required Unicode positions. Your font probably does not contain characters in the required Unicode positions, which means you will still only get rectangles and no Tengwar. î€î€î€Ÿî€î€‡î€„îˆî€…î€î€šîˆî€ƒî‰ î€î€î€Ÿî€î€‡î€‡î€…î„îŒî€€î€î€šîˆ î€î€î€Ÿî€î€‡î€ˆî€˜î€ƒî€î€€î€î€šîˆî€ƒî‰ î€î€…îˆî€žî€‘îˆî€ªî„î„î€î„îŒî€€î€î€šîˆ ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tengwar in Unicode Date: 11 Oct 2000 01:15:15 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 43 Message-ID: <6ur95offuk.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <8rn2k4$ena$1@news.planetinternet.be> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 971219715 1262 10.0.3.2 (10 Oct 2000 23:15:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Oct 2000 23:15:15 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28298 =?utf-8?Q?Drul=C3=BAk_the_Half=2DOrc?= writes: > > >My sig below uses this proposed encoding. > > > Sorry, but I only get rectangles and no tengwar. Why? > > Firstly, the font you use does not contain Tengwar characters -- or at > least not in the Unicode positions specified in this proposed standard. > When your font does not contain certain characters, you get rectangles > instead. OK on that. > I could also add that this encoding is only a proposal, and not an > accepted standard. And apparently not the only one. > This proposed encoding is in the range #117760 to #117887. > which means that much Unicode-compatible software will not handle it. http://anubis.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC2/WG2/docs/n1641/n1641.htm demands: U+0001 CC00 - U+0001 CC7F but there also exists: http://locke.ccil.org/~cowan/csur/tengwar.html that demands: U+E000 - U+E07F That is still in the 16 bit part. Now does anyone have info on if any of these have been accepted as standard? -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: tc31@cornell.edu (Thomas Chan) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tengwar in Unicode Date: 11 Oct 2000 23:57:07 GMT Organization: Ohio State University Lines: 29 Message-ID: <8s2uoj$qsp$1@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> References: <8rn2k4$ena$1@news.planetinternet.be> <6ur95offuk.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Reply-To: tc31@cornell.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: rjot-85-117.resnet.ohio-state.edu X-Trace: charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu 971308627 27545 164.107.85.117 (11 Oct 2000 23:57:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@osu.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Oct 2000 23:57:07 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-out.uswest.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu!nntp.service.ohio-state.edu!tc31 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28335 On 11 Oct 2000 01:15:15 +0200, Neil Franklin wrote: >=?utf-8?Q?Drul=C3=BAk_the_Half=2DOrc?= writes: >> This proposed encoding is in the range #117760 to #117887. >> which means that much Unicode-compatible software will not handle it. > >http://anubis.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC2/WG2/docs/n1641/n1641.htm >demands: U+0001 CC00 - U+0001 CC7F > >but there also exists: >http://locke.ccil.org/~cowan/csur/tengwar.html >that demands: U+E000 - U+E07F >That is still in the 16 bit part. > >Now does anyone have info on if any of these have been accepted as >standard? Anything in the "Private Use Area" (PUA) (U+E000 to U+F8FF) is by definition not standard. Apple, Adobe, Microsoft, and other vendors put their own characters there (like the Apple logo, or the stuff in Microsoft "Symbol" fonts), while the various legacy East Asian character sets map "user defined characters" (UDC) to the PUA. Even the divergences between Cowan's and Everson's versions of the "Conscript Unicode Registry" are an example of the "use it as you wish" nature of the PUA. Thomas Chan tc31@cornell.edu ###### From: Drulúk the Half-Orc Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Tengwar in Unicode Organization: University of Mordor, College of Military Sciences Message-ID: References: <8rn2k4$ena$1@news.planetinternet.be> <6ur95offuk.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 60 Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:36:00 +0000 NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.54.204.198 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@xtra.co.nz X-Trace: news.xtra.co.nz 971343402 210.54.204.198 (Thu, 12 Oct 2000 22:36:42 NZDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 22:36:42 NZDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!Quza.UK.peer!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!enews.sgi.com!news.xtra.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28366 Neil Franklin charged onto the battlefield, raised his/her lance, and shouted this battle cry: > Drul+APo-k the Half-Orc writes: > > > This proposed encoding is in the range #117760 to #117887. > > which means that much Unicode-compatible software will not handle it. > > http://anubis.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC2/WG2/docs/n1641/n1641.htm > > demands: U+-0001 CC00 - U+-0001 CC7F > > but there also exists: > > http://locke.ccil.org/+AH4-cowan/csur/tengwar.html ...which is _exactly_ the same as http://www.egt.ie/standards/csur/tengwar.html and is the encoding quoted and used in the sig of my last message. > that demands: U+-E000 - U+-E07F > > That is still in the 16 bit part. That is also in the 16-bit Unicode "Private Use Area". Like Thomas Chan explained, anything in the private use area is _not_ standard. > Now does anyone have info on if any of these have been accepted as > standard? Check the following web pages on the Unicode web site: http://www.unicode.org/pending/pending.html (Tengwar is near the bottom of the page) http://www.unicode.org/unicode/alloc/Pipeline.html (look in the table "Characters and Scripts Under Investigation") The 16-bit proposed encoding will _not_ be accepted as a Unicode standard, because it is in the private use area. Drul+APo-k the Half-Orc -- +4CrgQOAQ4B/gQOAH4ATgFOBI4AXgAOBA4BrgSOAD4Ek- +4CrgQOAQ4B/gQOAH4AfgBeBE4EzgAOBA4BrgSA- +4CrgQOAQ4B/gQOAH4AjgGOAD4EDgAOBA4BrgSOAD4Ek- +4C/gQOAF4BTgSOAe4BHgSOAq4ETgJeBE4APgGOAB4ETgTOAA4EDgGuBI- [Sig in Tengwar script, using the Unicode "private use area" encoding from http://www.egt.ie/standards/csur/tengwar.html]