Message-ID: <39D7B4DD.284FBB3@gofree.indigo.ie> From: Jones & McAuley X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Strange cloud seen in Hollin at night Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 23:04:13 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.205.234 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 970437898 194.125.205.234 (Sun, 01 Oct 2000 23:04:58 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 23:04:58 BST Organization: Indigo Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27931 In the Lord of the Rings, the party of nine walkers were going through the country of Hollin. They encountered flocks of crows in the sky. That night, they saw a strange cloud that blotted out the stars. Aragorn mentioned that it was traveling against the wind, so it could not be a proper cloud. What was it? This was never explained to my satisfaction. If it was just another flock of crows, why did it deserve a special mention? It could not have been a ringwraith on a flying steed, because they hadn't even crossed the river yet, never mind the mountains. Has anybody any ideas? Eoin ###### From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <39D7B4DD.284FBB3@gofree.indigo.ie> Subject: Re: Strange cloud seen in Hollin at night Lines: 23 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 01:07:37 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.200.55 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 970443291 195.82.200.55 (Mon, 02 Oct 2000 01:34:51 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 01:34:51 MET DST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!news.net.uni-c.dk!neel.uni2.net!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27940 Jones & McAuley skrev i en news:39D7B4DD.284FBB3@gofree.indigo.ie... > In the Lord of the Rings, the party of nine walkers were going > through the country of Hollin. They encountered flocks of crows > in the sky. That night, they saw a strange cloud that blotted > out the stars. Aragorn mentioned that it was traveling against > the wind, so it could not be a proper cloud. > What was it? This was never explained to my satisfaction. If it was > just another flock of crows, why did it deserve a special mention? > It could not have been a ringwraith on a flying steed, because they > hadn't even crossed the river yet, never mind the mountains. Has > anybody any ideas? I would guess that it was never supposed to be explained, that Tolkien himself would have been at a loss for an answer if someone asked him directly. Rather, it was meant as another of those enigmas, unexplained like the origins of Tom Bombadil, Goldberry and the Watcher in the water. I suppose it was added to show the reader that Sinister Things were around, and the Company was in peril. Corch. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <39D7B4DD.284FBB3@gofree.indigo.ie> Subject: Re: Strange cloud seen in Hollin at night Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 23:22:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.73.210 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 970442542 12.78.73.210 (Sun, 01 Oct 2000 23:22:22 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 23:22:22 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters2!bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27938 "Jones & McAuley" wrote in message news:39D7B4DD.284FBB3@gofree.indigo.ie... > It could not have been a ringwraith on a flying steed, because > they hadn't even crossed the river yet, never mind the mountains. That section of the story (most of 'The Ring Goes South') and the specific mention of the 'cloud' dates back to the earliest drafts of the story... long before the restriction against the Nazgul crossing the river was conceived. As such it seems likely that it was in origin one of the Nazgul and overlooked in later revisions. As to what it might then be considered... I'd still go with a Nazgul, sent on some specific mission (scouting out the Ringbearer) before the ban on crossing the river was imposed. The point seems to have been to avoid 'tipping their hand' and letting Mordor's enemies know about the winged Nazgul before they could be used to best effect. Thus, one secretive mission might be contemplated as an exception. ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <39D7B4DD.284FBB3@gofree.indigo.ie> Subject: Re: Strange cloud seen in Hollin at night Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 01:37:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.110 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: news.bahnhof.se 970450659 195.178.166.110 (Mon, 02 Oct 2000 03:37:39 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 03:37:39 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!news.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27932 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > That section of the story (most of 'The Ring Goes South') and the > specific mention of the 'cloud' dates back to the earliest drafts > of the story... long before the restriction against the Nazgul > crossing the river was conceived. As such it seems likely that > it was in origin one of the Nazgul and overlooked in later > revisions. Maybe but how far was it from Rivendell to Mordor anyway? I mean, had the Nazgul had time to get back to Mordor and their winged beasts and still be able to get back to the neighbourhood of Moria during the time-span between their misadventure at the ford and the cloud? I don't know how they got back to Mordor in the first place but it sure wasn't by horse. I find it very unlikely that they would have managed the above mentioned thing on foot... /Jonas ###### From: jce@seasip.demon.co.uk (John Elliott) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange cloud seen in Hollin at night Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 21:41:43 Message-ID: <970523102.22310.0.nnrp-10.c2de7091@news.demon.co.uk> References: <39D7B4DD.284FBB3@gofree.indigo.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: seasip.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: seasip.demon.co.uk:194.222.112.145 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 970523102 nnrp-10:22310 NO-IDENT seasip.demon.co.uk:194.222.112.145 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: skim 0.8.4 Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!seasip.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27983 Jones & McAuley wrote: >What was it? This was never explained to my satisfaction. If it was just >another flock of crows, why did it deserve a special mention? It could >not have been a ringwraith on a flying steed, because they hadn't even >crossed the river yet, never mind the mountains. Has anybody any ideas? I'm surprised no-one's mentioned flying Balrogs yet. -- John Elliott ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <39D7B4DD.284FBB3@gofree.indigo.ie> Subject: Re: Strange cloud seen in Hollin at night Lines: 29 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 00:48:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.73.148 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 970534135 12.78.73.148 (Tue, 03 Oct 2000 00:48:55 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 00:48:55 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters2!bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28005 "Jonas Thorell" wrote in message news:DFRB5.35$YF6.66023@news.bahnhof.se... > Maybe but how far was it from Rivendell to Mordor anyway? About 750 miles straight line. > I mean, had the Nazgul had time to get back to Mordor > and their winged beasts and still be able to get back to the > neighbourhood of Moria during the time-span between their > misadventure at the ford and the cloud? Given that the timespan was over two months? I'd say yes. That's only 12.5 miles a day (one way, return trip on winged beast would be much faster obviously). > I don't know how they got back to Mordor in the first place but > it sure wasn't by horse. I find it very unlikely that they would > have managed the above mentioned thing on foot... My take is that most of them were 'broken and disembodied' and made their way back in a 'spiritual' form... floating. However, they only found eight dead horses, not nine. If one of them survived the flood (the WK most likely) he could have ridden back to Mordor and switched steeds to spy around for anyone leaving Rivendell while the other Nazgul were getting back on their feet. ###### Message-ID: <39D97EB8.C13224C7@home.com> From: Jude Thomas Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-AtHome0405 (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange cloud seen in Hollin at night References: <39D7B4DD.284FBB3@gofree.indigo.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 06:42:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.9.245.58 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com 970555368 24.9.245.58 (Mon, 02 Oct 2000 23:42:48 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 23:42:48 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28023 It said that Frodo "...saw or felt a shadow pass over the high stars, as if for a moment they faded and then flashed out again." Gandalf felt it also, and as you said Aragorn said it moved against the wind. Possibly as a ringbearer he felt Sauron using the Palantir and looking in that direction, perhaps trying to contact the Palantir that was in White Towers on Eymn Beraid. Jones & McAuley wrote: > > In the Lord of the Rings, the party of nine walkers were going through > the country of Hollin. They encountered flocks of crows in the sky. That > night, they saw a strange cloud that blotted out the stars. Aragorn > mentioned that it was traveling against the wind, so it could not be a > proper cloud. > > What was it? This was never explained to my satisfaction. If it was just > another flock of crows, why did it deserve a special mention? It could > not have been a ringwraith on a flying steed, because they hadn't even > crossed the river yet, never mind the mountains. Has anybody any ideas? > > Eoin ###### From: johnnybravo58@hotmail.com (Johnny Firic) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange cloud seen in Hollin at night Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 01:12:45 GMT Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: <39da83ef.47469817@news.colby-sawyer.edu> References: <39D7B4DD.284FBB3@gofree.indigo.ie> <970523102.22310.0.nnrp-10.c2de7091@news.demon.co.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28047 >Jones & McAuley wrote: >>What was it? This was never explained to my satisfaction. If it was just >>another flock of crows, why did it deserve a special mention? It could >>not have been a ringwraith on a flying steed, because they hadn't even >>crossed the river yet, never mind the mountains. Has anybody any ideas? > > I'm surprised no-one's mentioned flying Balrogs yet. > >-- >John Elliott lol ... that's because EVERYONE KNOWS Balrogs couldn't fly! Johnny ###### From: David Sulger Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange cloud seen in Hollin at night Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 15:46:01 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8ri7nm$8ka$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <39D7B4DD.284FBB3@gofree.indigo.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.72.250.97 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Oct 05 15:46:01 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x54.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 166.72.250.97 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDorius Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!feeder.qis.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28080 Quoth the Raven: > I would guess that it was never supposed to be explained, that > Tolkien himself would have been at a loss for an answer if someone > asked him directly. Rather, it was meant as another of those enigmas, > unexplained like the origins of Tom Bombadil Ah, in other words it was a Maia floating around up there. :) --Dave Send e-mail to ds50.geo at yahoo.com Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: David Sulger Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange cloud seen in Hollin at night Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 15:50:53 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <8ri80q$90g$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <39D7B4DD.284FBB3@gofree.indigo.ie> <39D97EB8.C13224C7@home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.72.250.97 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Oct 05 15:50:53 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x54.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 166.72.250.97 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDorius Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!news3.bellglobal.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28072 In article <39D97EB8.C13224C7@home.com>, Jude Thomas wrote: > Possibly as a ringbearer he felt Sauron using the Palantir and > looking in that direction, perhaps trying to contact the Palantir > that was in White Towers on Eymn Beraid. Why would he do that? The palantír in Elostirion did nothing but look over the sea to Tol Erresea (IIRC). Why would Sauron waste his time trying to corrupt that one while he could further corrupt Saruman, or send Denethor further over the edge? --Dave Send e-mail to ds50.geo at yahoo.com Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <39D7B4DD.284FBB3@gofree.indigo.ie> <8ri7nm$8ka$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Strange cloud seen in Hollin at night Lines: 24 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: <687D5.605$Oc3.10580@news.get2net.dk> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 00:18:02 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.223.75 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 970784386 195.82.223.75 (Fri, 06 Oct 2000 00:19:46 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 00:19:46 MET DST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.bredband.net!bredband!neel.uni2.net!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28151 David Sulger skrev i en news:8ri7nm$8ka$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > I would guess that it was never supposed to be explained, that > > Tolkien himself would have been at a loss for an answer if someone > > asked him directly. Rather, it was meant as another of those > > enigmas, unexplained like the origins of Tom Bombadil > Ah, in other words it was a Maia floating around up there. :) Of course. When we see something flying in the air in our world and we don't know what it is, then it is by definition a UFO - an Unidentified Flying Object. And we all know that a UFO is a spaceship from another planet, manned by some aliens that don't have green visa waivers, though they may be that colour themselves. Similarly, when we read about something in the LotR and we don't understand what it is, then it is a Maia. Gollum's parents are never alluded to, although his grandmother is. We don't know who his Mum and Dad were. Therefore it stands to reason that they were Maiar. Of course. Anyone disagreeing is just part of the Great Big Conspiracy to keep the world in the dark so that they may take it over. Corvus. ###### Message-ID: <39DD00F0.3671DD64@gofree.indigo.ie> From: Jones & McAuley X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-CCK-MCD NSCPCD47 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Strange cloud seen in Hollin at night References: <39D7B4DD.284FBB3@gofree.indigo.ie> <39D97EB8.C13224C7@home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 27 Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 23:30:08 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.148.69 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 970785075 194.125.148.69 (Thu, 05 Oct 2000 23:31:15 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 23:31:15 BST Organization: Indigo Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed1.news.nl.uu.net!sun4nl!iol.ie!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28152 I doubt Aragorn would have been able to detect Sauron using the Palantir, even if the blood of kings flowed in his veins. Jude Thomas wrote: > It said that Frodo "...saw or felt a shadow pass over the high stars, as > if for a moment they faded and then flashed out again." Gandalf felt it > also, and as you said Aragorn said it moved against the wind. Possibly > as a ringbearer he felt Sauron using the Palantir and looking in that > direction, perhaps trying to contact the Palantir that was in White > Towers on Eymn Beraid. > > Jones & McAuley wrote: > > > > In the Lord of the Rings, the party of nine walkers were going through > > the country of Hollin. They encountered flocks of crows in the sky. That > > night, they saw a strange cloud that blotted out the stars. Aragorn > > mentioned that it was traveling against the wind, so it could not be a > > proper cloud. > > > > What was it? This was never explained to my satisfaction. If it was just > > another flock of crows, why did it deserve a special mention? It could > > not have been a ringwraith on a flying steed, because they hadn't even > > crossed the river yet, never mind the mountains. Has anybody any ideas? > > > > Eoin