From: cbstewart@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Whither the Avari? Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 03:45:30 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: cstewart@chcf.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.88.66.141 To: colin@anet.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Sep 28 03:45:30 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x54.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 199.88.66.141 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDcbstewart Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27718 1. By the 4th Age, did Avari have the right to sail to Aman? 2. If not, when exactly was it lost? 3. If not, what happened to their spirits when their bodies were killed? 4. If not, what would be the fate of an Avari/Sindar or Avari/Calaquendi offspring? 5. If so, what happened to the apparently thousands left in Middle-earth when Cirdan returned into the West? 6. If they "faded," what, exactly, happened to them? 7. If Avari and Men reproduced, were the descendants Peredhil? 8. Is there any reason to doubt that there were Avari/human matings? Thanks for pondering my questions. Charles B. Stewart cstewart@chcf.org Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 04:37:46 -0400 Organization: =?iso-8859-1?Q?And=FAril?= Associates Lines: 13 Message-ID: <39D3035A.47806224@erols.com> References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: BkQk6I3DVkMvGyKep86xHzy+oTdLpFhs6PPWWD0WiHE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Sep 2000 08:40:02 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27800 cbstewart@my-deja.com wrote: > 8. Is there any reason to doubt that there were Avari/human matings? None, since Prince Imrahil's Elvish blood came from such a mating. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 04:37:46 -0400 Organization: =?iso-8859-1?Q?And=FAril?= Associates Lines: 13 Message-ID: <39D3035A.47806224@erols.com> References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: BkQk6I3DVkMvGyKep86xHzy+oTdLpFhs6PPWWD0WiHE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Sep 2000 08:40:02 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27822 cbstewart@my-deja.com wrote: > 8. Is there any reason to doubt that there were Avari/human matings? None, since Prince Imrahil's Elvish blood came from such a mating. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39D3035A.47806224@erols.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 22 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 970159065 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:37:45 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:37:45 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 16:37:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!unlisys!news.snafu.de!news.tele.dk!171.64.14.106!newsfeed.stanford.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27699 cbstewart@my-deja.com wrote: > > 8. Is there any reason to doubt that there were Avari/human matings? Quoth jsolinas@erols.com: > None, since Prince Imrahil's Elvish blood came from such a mating. Not so! Remember, technically the Avari were Elves who refused the Great Journey from the beginning. They were distinct from the various groups of Elves who split off from the Journey along the way, such as the Sindar and the Silvan elves. Imrahil's Elvish blood was fairly certainly Silvan (or at least, not Avari: there were no Avari in Lorien, as far as I know). This raises an interesting question, though: the Avari are to my knowledge _never_ seen in the stories after the start of the Great Journey. They're often treated almost as "evil", or at least unpleasant. However, considering the debate among the Valar themselves about whether or not to bring the Elves to Valinor, I don't know why those Elves who had doubts should have been so looked down upon. What makes them worse than, say, Ulmo? Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39D3035A.47806224@erols.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 22 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 970159065 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:37:45 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:37:45 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 16:37:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!unlisys!news.snafu.de!news.tele.dk!171.64.14.106!newsfeed.stanford.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27809 cbstewart@my-deja.com wrote: > > 8. Is there any reason to doubt that there were Avari/human matings? Quoth jsolinas@erols.com: > None, since Prince Imrahil's Elvish blood came from such a mating. Not so! Remember, technically the Avari were Elves who refused the Great Journey from the beginning. They were distinct from the various groups of Elves who split off from the Journey along the way, such as the Sindar and the Silvan elves. Imrahil's Elvish blood was fairly certainly Silvan (or at least, not Avari: there were no Avari in Lorien, as far as I know). This raises an interesting question, though: the Avari are to my knowledge _never_ seen in the stories after the start of the Great Journey. They're often treated almost as "evil", or at least unpleasant. However, considering the debate among the Valar themselves about whether or not to bring the Elves to Valinor, I don't know why those Elves who had doubts should have been so looked down upon. What makes them worse than, say, Ulmo? Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39D3035A.47806224@erols.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 22 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 970159065 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:37:45 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:37:45 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 16:37:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!unlisys!news.snafu.de!news.tele.dk!171.64.14.106!newsfeed.stanford.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27833 cbstewart@my-deja.com wrote: > > 8. Is there any reason to doubt that there were Avari/human matings? Quoth jsolinas@erols.com: > None, since Prince Imrahil's Elvish blood came from such a mating. Not so! Remember, technically the Avari were Elves who refused the Great Journey from the beginning. They were distinct from the various groups of Elves who split off from the Journey along the way, such as the Sindar and the Silvan elves. Imrahil's Elvish blood was fairly certainly Silvan (or at least, not Avari: there were no Avari in Lorien, as far as I know). This raises an interesting question, though: the Avari are to my knowledge _never_ seen in the stories after the start of the Great Journey. They're often treated almost as "evil", or at least unpleasant. However, considering the debate among the Valar themselves about whether or not to bring the Elves to Valinor, I don't know why those Elves who had doubts should have been so looked down upon. What makes them worse than, say, Ulmo? Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 79 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 970160327 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:58:47 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:58:47 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 16:58:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27823 Quoth cstewart@chcf.org: > 1. By the 4th Age, did Avari have the right to sail to Aman? > 2. If not, when exactly was it lost? I feel like I've seen it somewhere, but I'm really not sure: is it ever stated that they didn't have it in general? (Also, see my other post in this thread: I don't know that the Avari deserved their bad reputation.) My vague recollection or impression is more that if they didn't want to go in the first place (when they were accompanying all their kindred, and when it was either Aman or constant fear of Melkor and his servants), they would be far less likely to choose to go in later ages. In short, it was a moot point: the Avari never _wanted_ to go to Aman. > 3. If not, what happened to their spirits when their bodies were > killed? I'm pretty sure that I've seen references to Avari in Mandos, but they may have continued to segregate themselves from the Elves of the Journey while they were there. Also, at least one essay suggests that Elves could refuse the summons of Mandos, and that many such would then heed a "countersummons" by Morgoth or his minions (quite possibly giving rise to some of the "spiritual" creatures of evil, such as Barrow Wights... but that's my own theory). > 4. If not, what would be the fate of an Avari/Sindar or > Avari/Calaquendi offspring? Again, my feeling is that the divisions of Elves in Middle-earth were more a matter of attitude than of nature. I think the children would make their own choices as to which parent's attitude to take. (I also suspect that such marriages would be unlikely, for "social" reasons if nothing else.) > 5. If so, what happened to the apparently thousands left in > Middle-earth when Cirdan returned into the West? See above: I think they simply stayed around of their own accord, and eventually faded. > 6. If they "faded," what, exactly, happened to them? We've discussed this before, I think, but it's been a while and I don't think the texts are particularly clear. My own feeling is that their bodies moved more and more into the "world of the Unseen" over time, and that eventually their capacity to physically interact with the world was diminished almost to nothing. This may, however, have made their innate "telepathic" abilities easier to use (as the physical form was one of the largest barriers to them)... which fits reasonably well with some of Tolkien's comments about interactions between mortals and faded Elves. > 7. If Avari and Men reproduced, were the descendants Peredhil? As "Peredhil" means "half elf" or something of the sort, then yes by definition. :) If you mean, "in the same situation as Elrond and Elros", then I'd say no: Imrahil and his ancestors weren't in that situation, apparently, and it seems that the famous Peredhil of the First Age were given special rights of choice by the Valar (or Eru) in thanks for their valor. > 8. Is there any reason to doubt that there were Avari/human matings? I would doubt it as a _common_ occurrence for the same reason that I doubt that there were many Silvan- or Sindarin-human matings that we aren't told about. Elves and humans had many great differences in their societies and in their attitudes to marriage (and mating), many of which can be seen in "Laws and Customs Among the Eldar" in _Morgoth's Ring_ and in the "Athrabeth" in _The Peoples of Middle-earth_. I would imagine that among the Avari, those cultural differences would be even larger, and moreover that the Avari may have had a very secret society to begin with (due to their long years of avoiding Melkor's creatures, among other things): humans may not have encountered them often at all. I would not be surprised to learn that no Avari/human matings ever occurred, at least, which is quite a strong statement given the circumstances. Steuard Jensen ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 16:55:17 -0400 Organization: =?iso-8859-1?Q?And=FAril?= Associates Lines: 24 Message-ID: <39D3B035.BDBCE942@erols.com> References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39D3035A.47806224@erols.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: +2VPMg+kJCb+hCx5YOTxtLVN5r30gzNy3lqTElgmmLA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Sep 2000 22:06:00 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!stueberl.r-kom.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27698 Steuard Jensen wrote: > > None, since Prince Imrahil's Elvish blood came from such a mating. > > Not so! Remember, technically the Avari were Elves who refused the > Great Journey from the beginning. They were distinct from the various > groups of Elves who split off from the Journey along the way, such as > the Sindar and the Silvan elves. Imrahil's Elvish blood was fairly > certainly Silvan (or at least, not Avari: there were no Avari in > Lorien, as far as I know). But I read somewhere (maybe here) that there were only 3 marriages of Eldar and Edain, namely Beren-Lúthien, Tuor-Idril, and Aragorn-Arwen. And I also recall reading that the Silvan Elves were a mixture of Sindar and Avari. That is why I have assumed that Imrahil's ancestry was Avari. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 16:55:17 -0400 Organization: =?iso-8859-1?Q?And=FAril?= Associates Lines: 24 Message-ID: <39D3B035.BDBCE942@erols.com> References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39D3035A.47806224@erols.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: +2VPMg+kJCb+hCx5YOTxtLVN5r30gzNy3lqTElgmmLA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Sep 2000 22:06:00 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!stueberl.r-kom.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27808 Steuard Jensen wrote: > > None, since Prince Imrahil's Elvish blood came from such a mating. > > Not so! Remember, technically the Avari were Elves who refused the > Great Journey from the beginning. They were distinct from the various > groups of Elves who split off from the Journey along the way, such as > the Sindar and the Silvan elves. Imrahil's Elvish blood was fairly > certainly Silvan (or at least, not Avari: there were no Avari in > Lorien, as far as I know). But I read somewhere (maybe here) that there were only 3 marriages of Eldar and Edain, namely Beren-Lúthien, Tuor-Idril, and Aragorn-Arwen. And I also recall reading that the Silvan Elves were a mixture of Sindar and Avari. That is why I have assumed that Imrahil's ancestry was Avari. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 16:55:17 -0400 Organization: =?iso-8859-1?Q?And=FAril?= Associates Lines: 24 Message-ID: <39D3B035.BDBCE942@erols.com> References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39D3035A.47806224@erols.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: +2VPMg+kJCb+hCx5YOTxtLVN5r30gzNy3lqTElgmmLA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Sep 2000 22:06:00 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!stueberl.r-kom.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27832 Steuard Jensen wrote: > > None, since Prince Imrahil's Elvish blood came from such a mating. > > Not so! Remember, technically the Avari were Elves who refused the > Great Journey from the beginning. They were distinct from the various > groups of Elves who split off from the Journey along the way, such as > the Sindar and the Silvan elves. Imrahil's Elvish blood was fairly > certainly Silvan (or at least, not Avari: there were no Avari in > Lorien, as far as I know). But I read somewhere (maybe here) that there were only 3 marriages of Eldar and Edain, namely Beren-Lúthien, Tuor-Idril, and Aragorn-Arwen. And I also recall reading that the Silvan Elves were a mixture of Sindar and Avari. That is why I have assumed that Imrahil's ancestry was Avari. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Lines: 48 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 02:21:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.62.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.mi.home.com 970194073 24.0.62.34 (Thu, 28 Sep 2000 19:21:13 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 19:21:13 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.mi.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27770 "Steuard Jensen" wrote in message news:bNKA5.86$v3.1764@uchinews... > Quoth cstewart@chcf.org: > > 6. If they "faded," what, exactly, happened to them? > > We've discussed this before, I think, but it's been a while and I > don't think the texts are particularly clear. My own feeling is that > their bodies moved more and more into the "world of the Unseen" over > time, and that eventually their capacity to physically interact with > the world was diminished almost to nothing. This may, however, have > made their innate "telepathic" abilities easier to use (as the > physical form was one of the largest barriers to them)... which fits > reasonably well with some of Tolkien's comments about interactions > between mortals and faded Elves. IIRC Finrod noticed that "fading" had begun in the Noldor after only four and a half centuries after their return to Middle-earth. I think that any Elf that had lived in Middle-earth for over six thousand years, sixty centuries, like Cirdan, Galadriel, Elrond, and Celeborn would have already faded. That's not a shocking as it sounds. Tolkien wrote that an Elf who had faded could appear as substantial as a "real" person, if he/she wished. There is evidence of this in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. In The Hobbit the Woodland-elves "vanished" when the Dwarves crashed their party. They might have just turned out the Feanorian Lamps and slipped silently behind the trees, but the Dwarves saw no evidence that the Elves had ever been there. In LotR Legolas walked on snow without leaving foot-prints. This can't wholly be explained by Legolas' light shoes. > > > 7. If Avari and Men reproduced, were the descendants Peredhil? > > As "Peredhil" means "half elf" or something of the sort, then yes by > definition. :) If you mean, "in the same situation as Elrond and > Elros", then I'd say no: Imrahil and his ancestors weren't in that > situation, apparently, and it seems that the famous Peredhil of the > First Age were given special rights of choice by the Valar (or Eru) in > thanks for their valor. The term Peredhel (Q. Perelda "half-Elda") wouldn't apply to progeny of the union of Avar and Adan, since neither parent was an Edhel. Dave ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:29:34 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39D3035A.47806224@erols.com> <39D3B035.BDBCE942@erols.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27696 On Thu, 28 Sep 2000 16:55:17 -0400, Flame of the West wrote: >Steuard Jensen wrote: >>Sumbuddy wroted: >> > None, since Prince Imrahil's Elvish blood came from such a mating. >> Not so! Remember, technically the Avari were Elves who refused the >> Great Journey from the beginning. They were distinct from the various >> groups of Elves who split off from the Journey along the way, such as >> the Sindar and the Silvan elves. Imrahil's Elvish blood was fairly >> certainly Silvan (or at least, not Avari: there were no Avari in >> Lorien, as far as I know). > >But I read somewhere (maybe here) that there were only 3 marriages >of Eldar and Edain, namely Beren-Lúthien, Tuor-Idril, and Aragorn-Arwen. >And I also recall reading that the Silvan Elves were a mixture of >Sindar and Avari. That is why I have assumed that Imrahil's ancestry >was Avari. As far as I can tell, there is a textual ambiguity here. Apparently Tolkien meant 'High Elves' or 'Noldor' here and/or he got vague on whether the elves who were (in the end) neither Sindar nor returned from Aman were Eldar or Avari or 'something else'. In any case there were elves who began the Great Journey but did not finish it nor did they come to Beleriand. Are these elves Eldar? Are these elves Sindar? I would say yes to the first and no to the second question. To me it is vague whether the elves of Lorien and Mirkwood, the Silvan Elves, are wholly these elves or Avari or a mixture of the two. In any case, whatever they are, they are Imrahil's ancestors (in part). the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- I don't get even, I get odder. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:29:34 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39D3035A.47806224@erols.com> <39D3B035.BDBCE942@erols.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27806 On Thu, 28 Sep 2000 16:55:17 -0400, Flame of the West wrote: >Steuard Jensen wrote: >>Sumbuddy wroted: >> > None, since Prince Imrahil's Elvish blood came from such a mating. >> Not so! Remember, technically the Avari were Elves who refused the >> Great Journey from the beginning. They were distinct from the various >> groups of Elves who split off from the Journey along the way, such as >> the Sindar and the Silvan elves. Imrahil's Elvish blood was fairly >> certainly Silvan (or at least, not Avari: there were no Avari in >> Lorien, as far as I know). > >But I read somewhere (maybe here) that there were only 3 marriages >of Eldar and Edain, namely Beren-Lúthien, Tuor-Idril, and Aragorn-Arwen. >And I also recall reading that the Silvan Elves were a mixture of >Sindar and Avari. That is why I have assumed that Imrahil's ancestry >was Avari. As far as I can tell, there is a textual ambiguity here. Apparently Tolkien meant 'High Elves' or 'Noldor' here and/or he got vague on whether the elves who were (in the end) neither Sindar nor returned from Aman were Eldar or Avari or 'something else'. In any case there were elves who began the Great Journey but did not finish it nor did they come to Beleriand. Are these elves Eldar? Are these elves Sindar? I would say yes to the first and no to the second question. To me it is vague whether the elves of Lorien and Mirkwood, the Silvan Elves, are wholly these elves or Avari or a mixture of the two. In any case, whatever they are, they are Imrahil's ancestors (in part). the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- I don't get even, I get odder. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:29:34 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39D3035A.47806224@erols.com> <39D3B035.BDBCE942@erols.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 33 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27830 On Thu, 28 Sep 2000 16:55:17 -0400, Flame of the West wrote: >Steuard Jensen wrote: >>Sumbuddy wroted: >> > None, since Prince Imrahil's Elvish blood came from such a mating. >> Not so! Remember, technically the Avari were Elves who refused the >> Great Journey from the beginning. They were distinct from the various >> groups of Elves who split off from the Journey along the way, such as >> the Sindar and the Silvan elves. Imrahil's Elvish blood was fairly >> certainly Silvan (or at least, not Avari: there were no Avari in >> Lorien, as far as I know). > >But I read somewhere (maybe here) that there were only 3 marriages >of Eldar and Edain, namely Beren-Lúthien, Tuor-Idril, and Aragorn-Arwen. >And I also recall reading that the Silvan Elves were a mixture of >Sindar and Avari. That is why I have assumed that Imrahil's ancestry >was Avari. As far as I can tell, there is a textual ambiguity here. Apparently Tolkien meant 'High Elves' or 'Noldor' here and/or he got vague on whether the elves who were (in the end) neither Sindar nor returned from Aman were Eldar or Avari or 'something else'. In any case there were elves who began the Great Journey but did not finish it nor did they come to Beleriand. Are these elves Eldar? Are these elves Sindar? I would say yes to the first and no to the second question. To me it is vague whether the elves of Lorien and Mirkwood, the Silvan Elves, are wholly these elves or Avari or a mixture of the two. In any case, whatever they are, they are Imrahil's ancestors (in part). the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- I don't get even, I get odder. ###### Lines: 69 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 29 Sep 2000 14:28:20 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000929102820.19935.00000323@nso-fi.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27750 In article , the softrat writes: >>> > None, since Prince Imrahil's Elvish blood came from such a mating. >>> Not so! Remember, technically the Avari were Elves who refused the >>> Great Journey from the beginning. They were distinct from the various >>> groups of Elves who split off from the Journey along the way, such as >>> the Sindar and the Silvan elves. Imrahil's Elvish blood was fairly >>> certainly Silvan (or at least, not Avari: there were no Avari in >>> Lorien, as far as I know). >> >>But I read somewhere (maybe here) that there were only 3 marriages >>of Eldar and Edain, namely Beren-Lúthien, Tuor-Idril, and Aragorn-Arwen. >>And I also recall reading that the Silvan Elves were a mixture of >>Sindar and Avari. That is why I have assumed that Imrahil's ancestry >>was Avari. > >As far as I can tell, there is a textual ambiguity here. Apparently >Tolkien meant 'High Elves' or 'Noldor' here and/or he got vague on >whether the elves who were (in the end) neither Sindar nor returned >from Aman were Eldar or Avari or 'something else'. In any case there >were elves who began the Great Journey but did not finish it nor did >they come to Beleriand. Are these elves Eldar? Are these elves Sindar? >I would say yes to the first and no to the second question. To me it >is vague whether the elves of Lorien and Mirkwood, the Silvan Elves, >are wholly these elves or Avari or a mixture of the two. In any case, >whatever they are, they are Imrahil's ancestors (in part). There's the line from App. F of LOTR: "The Elves far back in the Eldar Days became divided into two main branches: the West-elves (the Eldar) and the East-elves. Of the latter kind were most of the elven folk of Mirkwood and Lorien..." Later writings place Avari and Nandor in the same areas, so it stands to reason that the both Nandor and Avari comingled to form the Silvan culture. The quote above shows that the East-elves (Avari) were the majority of the Mirkwood and Lorien populations. The problem of the Nandor, I think, is that Tolkien did not have a clear conception of them at the time of the LOTR. I'm operating from memory here but I think pre-LOTR writings mentioned Teleri who commenced the Great Journey but turned aside east of the Misty Mountains. However, I think in these early writings he characterized them as *neither* Eldar nor Avari. This actually works with a definition of Eldar found later in App F: "...Eldar, the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of Days (save the Sindar only). The Nandor are never mentioned - by name or by implication - in the LOTR, so the issue only arises because in his later Silmarillion texts, Tolkien fleshes out the Nandor and places them firmly in the Eldar camp. It seems that the LOTR and post-LOTR definitions of Eldar are not entirely consistent on the Nandor. A last point. If we also take into account the population percentages Tolkien gave us in Quendi and Eldar (?) it becomes pretty unlikely that the Nandor would have been a significant population. Of the original 144, I think the Nandor only had a proportion of 8 (I'll have to check to be sure of the number but it was quite low). Of those 8, most eventually ended up in Beleriand where they were decimated in the Wars. Certainly some Nandorin communities who didn't enter Beleriand would have survived in Eriador and east of the Misty's but they would have been overwhelmed by the numbers of Avari Tolkien said moved west from Cuivienen over the ages. In other words the Nandor who didn't enter Beleraind and might have provided the Nandorin component of the Silvan elves were a minority of an already small minority. Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? References: <20000929102820.19935.00000323@nso-fi.aol.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 48 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 970240470 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:14:30 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:14:30 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 15:14:30 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27701 Quoth mcresq@aol.com (Russ): > There's the line from App. F of LOTR: "The Elves far back in the > Eldar Days became divided into two main branches: the West-elves > (the Eldar) and the East-elves. Of the latter kind were most of the > elven folk of Mirkwood and Lorien..." > Later writings place Avari and Nandor in the same areas, so it > stands to reason that the both Nandor and Avari comingled to form > the Silvan culture. The quote above shows that the East-elves > (Avari) were the majority of the Mirkwood and Lorien populations. Now that's interesting. When I read the quote from App. F, I thought that "West-elves" referred to those who actually went across the sea to the West, or at least those who crossed into Beleriand, and correspondingly that "East-elves" included the Silvan folk. Now that I see it, I'll admit that your interpretation of "East-elves = Avari" could be right, but for the moment I'm sticking with my original interpretation. > This actually works with a definition of Eldar found later in App F: > "...Eldar, the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the > Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of Days (save the > Sindar only). It looks here as if Tolkien was limiting "Eldar" to mean "Calaquendi plus Sindar", or at least that's my reading. (That is, I think the final comment means "those who came there AND the Sindar, but nobody else.") The distinction he's making at this point seems to be whether or not the given population dropped out of the Great Journey east Beleriand (or perhaps east of the Misty Mountains... did any groups of Elves abandon the march in Eriador?) In _The Silmarillion_, there is certainly a substantial apparent difference in cultural sophistication between the Sindar and, say, the Green Elves of Ossirriand (sp?); under my reading, the former would be classified as Eldar and the latter not. I think that this interpretation is consistent, anyway. And now of course I don't have Silm. handy to check how well it agrees with the little chart of Elvish groups there. Hmph. On another note, don't we have explicit information somewhere on the ancestry of Thranduil and his followers? I'm fairly sure that they were said to be descended from Elves of the Journey rather than Avari, but of course that doesn't necessarily exclude the possibility of Avari joining them once they'd settled. I _really_ have to hold off from posting until I can check my references in the future, I think. :) Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? References: <20000929102820.19935.00000323@nso-fi.aol.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 48 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 970240470 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:14:30 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:14:30 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 15:14:30 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27811 Quoth mcresq@aol.com (Russ): > There's the line from App. F of LOTR: "The Elves far back in the > Eldar Days became divided into two main branches: the West-elves > (the Eldar) and the East-elves. Of the latter kind were most of the > elven folk of Mirkwood and Lorien..." > Later writings place Avari and Nandor in the same areas, so it > stands to reason that the both Nandor and Avari comingled to form > the Silvan culture. The quote above shows that the East-elves > (Avari) were the majority of the Mirkwood and Lorien populations. Now that's interesting. When I read the quote from App. F, I thought that "West-elves" referred to those who actually went across the sea to the West, or at least those who crossed into Beleriand, and correspondingly that "East-elves" included the Silvan folk. Now that I see it, I'll admit that your interpretation of "East-elves = Avari" could be right, but for the moment I'm sticking with my original interpretation. > This actually works with a definition of Eldar found later in App F: > "...Eldar, the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the > Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of Days (save the > Sindar only). It looks here as if Tolkien was limiting "Eldar" to mean "Calaquendi plus Sindar", or at least that's my reading. (That is, I think the final comment means "those who came there AND the Sindar, but nobody else.") The distinction he's making at this point seems to be whether or not the given population dropped out of the Great Journey east Beleriand (or perhaps east of the Misty Mountains... did any groups of Elves abandon the march in Eriador?) In _The Silmarillion_, there is certainly a substantial apparent difference in cultural sophistication between the Sindar and, say, the Green Elves of Ossirriand (sp?); under my reading, the former would be classified as Eldar and the latter not. I think that this interpretation is consistent, anyway. And now of course I don't have Silm. handy to check how well it agrees with the little chart of Elvish groups there. Hmph. On another note, don't we have explicit information somewhere on the ancestry of Thranduil and his followers? I'm fairly sure that they were said to be descended from Elves of the Journey rather than Avari, but of course that doesn't necessarily exclude the possibility of Avari joining them once they'd settled. I _really_ have to hold off from posting until I can check my references in the future, I think. :) Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? References: <20000929102820.19935.00000323@nso-fi.aol.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 48 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 970240470 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:14:30 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:14:30 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 15:14:30 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27835 Quoth mcresq@aol.com (Russ): > There's the line from App. F of LOTR: "The Elves far back in the > Eldar Days became divided into two main branches: the West-elves > (the Eldar) and the East-elves. Of the latter kind were most of the > elven folk of Mirkwood and Lorien..." > Later writings place Avari and Nandor in the same areas, so it > stands to reason that the both Nandor and Avari comingled to form > the Silvan culture. The quote above shows that the East-elves > (Avari) were the majority of the Mirkwood and Lorien populations. Now that's interesting. When I read the quote from App. F, I thought that "West-elves" referred to those who actually went across the sea to the West, or at least those who crossed into Beleriand, and correspondingly that "East-elves" included the Silvan folk. Now that I see it, I'll admit that your interpretation of "East-elves = Avari" could be right, but for the moment I'm sticking with my original interpretation. > This actually works with a definition of Eldar found later in App F: > "...Eldar, the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the > Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of Days (save the > Sindar only). It looks here as if Tolkien was limiting "Eldar" to mean "Calaquendi plus Sindar", or at least that's my reading. (That is, I think the final comment means "those who came there AND the Sindar, but nobody else.") The distinction he's making at this point seems to be whether or not the given population dropped out of the Great Journey east Beleriand (or perhaps east of the Misty Mountains... did any groups of Elves abandon the march in Eriador?) In _The Silmarillion_, there is certainly a substantial apparent difference in cultural sophistication between the Sindar and, say, the Green Elves of Ossirriand (sp?); under my reading, the former would be classified as Eldar and the latter not. I think that this interpretation is consistent, anyway. And now of course I don't have Silm. handy to check how well it agrees with the little chart of Elvish groups there. Hmph. On another note, don't we have explicit information somewhere on the ancestry of Thranduil and his followers? I'm fairly sure that they were said to be descended from Elves of the Journey rather than Avari, but of course that doesn't necessarily exclude the possibility of Avari joining them once they'd settled. I _really_ have to hold off from posting until I can check my references in the future, I think. :) Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 11 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 970240615 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:16:55 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:16:55 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 15:16:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27692 "Steuard Jensen" wrote: > > As "Peredhil" means "half elf" or something of the sort, then yes > > by definition. :) Quoth "Dave Lind" : > The term Peredhel (Q. Perelda "half-Elda") wouldn't apply to progeny > of the union of Avar and Adan, since neither parent was an Edhel. Eek. Point taken. I need to be more careful with these things. Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 11 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 970240615 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:16:55 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:16:55 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 15:16:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27802 "Steuard Jensen" wrote: > > As "Peredhil" means "half elf" or something of the sort, then yes > > by definition. :) Quoth "Dave Lind" : > The term Peredhel (Q. Perelda "half-Elda") wouldn't apply to progeny > of the union of Avar and Adan, since neither parent was an Edhel. Eek. Point taken. I need to be more careful with these things. Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 11 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 970240615 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:16:55 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:16:55 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 15:16:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27826 "Steuard Jensen" wrote: > > As "Peredhil" means "half elf" or something of the sort, then yes > > by definition. :) Quoth "Dave Lind" : > The term Peredhel (Q. Perelda "half-Elda") wouldn't apply to progeny > of the union of Avar and Adan, since neither parent was an Edhel. Eek. Point taken. I need to be more careful with these things. Steuard Jensen ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 11:31:21 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.7f.3f X-Server-Date: 29 Sep 2000 15:30:46 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!63.211.125.72!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27798 Steuard Jensen wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Imrahil and his ancestors weren't in that >situation, apparently, and it seems that the famous Peredhil of the >First Age were given special rights of choice by the Valar (or Eru) in >thanks for their valor. I thought it was not so much in thanks for their valor as because the Valar had no right to judge. They could not take the Gift of Men from someone who was half human, yet that mortal half also could not have lived long in Valinor. Do we know canonically that Imrahil's Elvish ancestry was other than the three great matings of Elf and Human? Perhaps he was simply descended from a cadet branch of the royal house of Numenor, in which case he would have been constrained by the choice of Elros and would not need to be considered a special case. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Lines: 81 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 29 Sep 2000 18:15:36 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Message-ID: <20000929141536.19935.00000447@nso-fi.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27753 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: >> There's the line from App. F of LOTR: "The Elves far back in the >> Eldar Days became divided into two main branches: the West-elves >> (the Eldar) and the East-elves. Of the latter kind were most of the >> elven folk of Mirkwood and Lorien..." > >> Later writings place Avari and Nandor in the same areas, so it >> stands to reason that the both Nandor and Avari comingled to form >> the Silvan culture. The quote above shows that the East-elves >> (Avari) were the majority of the Mirkwood and Lorien populations. > >Now that's interesting. When I read the quote from App. F, I thought >that "West-elves" referred to those who actually went across the sea >to the West, or at least those who crossed into Beleriand, and >correspondingly that "East-elves" included the Silvan folk. Now that >I see it, I'll admit that your interpretation of "East-elves = Avari" >could be right, but for the moment I'm sticking with my original >interpretation. Well, you have to put the two definitions from App F together. The first definiton implies West-elves is a eynonym for Eldar. The later definition tells you what Eldar are (i.e. Elves of the Great Jounrey who went to Aman plus the Sindar) > >> This actually works with a definition of Eldar found later in App F: >> "...Eldar, the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the >> Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of Days (save the >> Sindar only). > >It looks here as if Tolkien was limiting "Eldar" to mean "Calaquendi >plus Sindar", or at least that's my reading. (That is, I think the >final comment means "those who came there AND the Sindar, but nobody >else.") Right. > The distinction he's making at this point seems to be whether >or not the given population dropped out of the Great Journey east >Beleriand (or perhaps east of the Misty Mountains... did any groups of >Elves abandon the march in Eriador?). Well, that's the issue. There's no way that I see to correlate the Nandor of the post-Silmarillion writings with the defintions in Appendix F of the LOTR. The Nandor would be clearly exluded from his definition of Eldar in Appendix F. On the other hand, his later writings clearly state Nandor are Eldar. There's no internal way to deal with this that I can see. The external reason is simple enough - pre-LOTR writings place the Nandor as neither Eldar nor Avari and Tolkien was still thinking in the pre-LOTR terms when writing App F. The first quote from App F merely states that the Elves divided into "two main branches" - West-elves (Eldar) and East-elves. This could be read to imply that there were small non-main, or minor, branches that we could shoehorn the Nandor into. > In _The Silmarillion_, there is >certainly a substantial apparent difference in cultural sophistication >between the Sindar and, say, the Green Elves of Ossirriand (sp?); >under my reading, the former would be classified as Eldar and the >latter not. I think that this interpretation is consistent, anyway. >And now of course I don't have Silm. handy to check how well it agrees >with the little chart of Elvish groups there. Hmph. Post LOTR writings are pretty clear, I think, that Nandor, which include the Laiquendi, are Eldar. Under the pre-LOTR writings App F of LOTR they would not be Eldar. Oh well. >On another note, don't we have explicit information somewhere on the >ancestry of Thranduil and his followers? I'm fairly sure that they >were said to be descended from Elves of the Journey rather than Avari, >but of course that doesn't necessarily exclude the possibility of >Avari joining them once they'd settled. Thranduil and his followers were said to be from Doriath, so they were Sindar. I think this appears in Unfinished Tales. Basically, after the Great Battle and the founding of Lindon, some Sindar - particularly those from Doriath - wanted to get as far away from the Noldor as possible to the headed east (and took over the Silvan realms of Greenwood and Lorien) and south (and founded Edellhond). Russ ###### Lines: 18 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 29 Sep 2000 18:15:36 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Message-ID: <20000929141536.19935.00000448@nso-fi.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27754 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >Do we know canonically that Imrahil's Elvish ancestry was other than >the three great matings of Elf and Human? Perhaps he was simply >descended from a cadet branch of the royal house of Numenor, in >which case he would have been constrained by the choice of Elros and >would not need to be considered a special case. > Cannonically? No. There is the story of one of Nimrodel's maid's having a go with on the the early lords of Dol Amroth - but that's only in Unfinished Tales or HOME. Since amaid of Nimrodel would in all liklihood be an Avari Silvan elf, it's outside the three Elda-edain thingy anyway. Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? References: <20000929141536.19935.00000447@nso-fi.aol.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 17 Message-ID: <4j5B5.170$v3.2982@uchinews> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 970252608 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:36:48 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:36:48 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:36:48 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27824 Quoth mcresq@aol.com (Russ): > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: > >On another note, don't we have explicit information somewhere on the > >ancestry of Thranduil and his followers? > Thranduil and his followers were said to be from Doriath, so they > were Sindar. I think this appears in Unfinished Tales. Good point... that's in "The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves", I think. I believe that I was thinking of something else (and thus probably not relating to Thranduil at all)... probably in one of the various accounts of the Great Journey. I seem to recall something about the settlement of Mirkwood and Lorien (or maybe just generally lands in that area) in that context. Hmm. I'll drop out of this discussion until I've got a chance to check references, I think. Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 12 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 970252845 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:40:45 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:40:45 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:40:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27693 Quoth brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown): > Do we know canonically that Imrahil's Elvish ancestry was other than > the three great matings of Elf and Human? Perhaps he was simply > descended from a cadet branch of the royal house of Numenor... Well, I think it's fairly clear in LotR that the prevailing belief was of a connection with the Elves of Lorien. Doesn't Legolas say something about it being clear that not all of Nimrodel's people passed over the sea? If the Elvish connection _was_ through Elros, I would think the development of an untrue alternate explanation unlikely. Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 12 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 970252845 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:40:45 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:40:45 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:40:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27803 Quoth brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown): > Do we know canonically that Imrahil's Elvish ancestry was other than > the three great matings of Elf and Human? Perhaps he was simply > descended from a cadet branch of the royal house of Numenor... Well, I think it's fairly clear in LotR that the prevailing belief was of a connection with the Elves of Lorien. Doesn't Legolas say something about it being clear that not all of Nimrodel's people passed over the sea? If the Elvish connection _was_ through Elros, I would think the development of an untrue alternate explanation unlikely. Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 12 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 970252845 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:40:45 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 13:40:45 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:40:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27827 Quoth brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown): > Do we know canonically that Imrahil's Elvish ancestry was other than > the three great matings of Elf and Human? Perhaps he was simply > descended from a cadet branch of the royal house of Numenor... Well, I think it's fairly clear in LotR that the prevailing belief was of a connection with the Elves of Lorien. Doesn't Legolas say something about it being clear that not all of Nimrodel's people passed over the sea? If the Elvish connection _was_ through Elros, I would think the development of an untrue alternate explanation unlikely. Steuard Jensen ###### From: cbstewart@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 23:13:19 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 63 Message-ID: <8r37mc$o2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: cstewart@chcf.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.88.66.141 To: colin@anet.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Sep 29 23:13:19 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x52.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 199.88.66.141 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDcbstewart Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27713 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > Quoth brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown): > > Do we know canonically that Imrahil's Elvish ancestry was other than > > the three great matings of Elf and Human? Yes. > > Perhaps he was simply > > descended from a cadet branch of the royal house of Numenor... That is also likely, since the ancestors of Imrahil were among the Faithful of Numenor and were kin to Elendil, who raised one of them to the rank of feudal Prince of Dol Amroth. But probably they were descended from Elros through a female line or cadet male branch. But that is not the source of the "Elvishness" that Legolas detected in them. > Well, I think it's fairly clear in LotR that the prevailing belief was > of a connection with the Elves of Lorien. Doesn't Legolas say > something about it being clear that not all of Nimrodel's people > passed over the sea? Precisely. Imrazor the Numenorean wed Mithrellas of Lorien, one of the companions of Nimrodel who had migrated from Lorien to Gondor. From that union descend the Princes of Dol Amroth. Although it is indisputable that Nimrodel and Amroth were Eldar, it is unclear if Mithrellas was Sindarin, Nandorin, Avari or some mixture of these kindreds, since all could be found in Lorien. But Legolas's remark suggests that she was Eldarin. Otherwise, the Elvish blood he bowed to in Prince Imrahil would have had to be via Elros or an Avar. But it was well-known that Elros chose to be of mankind and that his descendants could not have gone to Aman. And we know of no Avari who ever chose to go to Aman (assuming that they retained the choice of sailing over Sea after Aman was removed from the circles of the world). Yet Legolas clearly saw in Imrahil descent from an elf who, but for marriage to a mortal, would have gone into the West, probably from the elf-haven at Amroth. Since this contradicts Tolkien's statement that there were only three unions of the Eldar and the Edain, I conclude that Mithrellas was probably Nandorin or of mixed Nandor and Avari blood. This is still somewhat problematic, since the Nandor were originally a branch of the Eldar. But the Nandor had become wood-elves, unlike the other sea-summoned Teleri, and were among the first elves to give up the trek westward to Aman. Perhaps Tolkien did not, when writing LotR, think of the Nandor as Eldar: remember, in the original, published version of LotR, the "only three unions" were not said to be between "Eldar and Edain" but between "High-elves and Men". Although many of the High-elves were Teleri (e.g. Thingol), none of the Nandor became High-elves so far as we know; it appears that none of them left Middle-earth prior to the Second Age and none returned to Middle-earth to Middle-Earth as Calaquendi (High-elves). Charles B. Stewart cstewart@chcf.org Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8r37mc$o2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 71 Message-ID: <5MoB5.225$v3.3913@uchinews> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 970332289 128.135.12.7 (Sat, 30 Sep 2000 11:44:49 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 11:44:49 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:44:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27694 Quoth cstewart@chcf.org: > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > > Quoth brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown): > > > Do we know canonically that Imrahil's Elvish ancestry was other > > > than the three great matings of Elf and Human? > Yes. What's your source on this? My impression is that Stan was asking for truly canonical information on Imrahil's ancestry: specifically, information from LotR (and possibly from _The Hobbit_ and a handfull of other minor sources). For a bit of discussion of my thoughts on the various levels of "canon" in Tolkien's works, take a look at my Tolkien Booklist at http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/, linked near the top of the page. There are useful tidbits in the Tolkien Newsgroups FAQ and in the old draft "Great Debates FAQ" in the same place, so take a look. > > Well, I think it's fairly clear in LotR that the prevailing belief > > was of a connection with the Elves of Lorien. Doesn't Legolas say > > something about it being clear that not all of Nimrodel's people > > passed over the sea? > Precisely. Imrazor the Numenorean wed Mithrellas of Lorien, one of the > companions of Nimrodel who had migrated from Lorien to Gondor. Right... but as far as I know our only source for that information is _Unfinished Tales_. I personally take most of UT very seriously, but it's always nice to see confirmation of its stories in LotR or other more canonical texts. Now that I'm at home, I can cite the relevant passage: Legolas says, "Hail, lord! It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lorien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water." Imrahil confirms that this is the "lore of [his] land". As I said earlier, I think that Legolas's observation proves that there _was_ Elvish blood in the line of Dol Amroth. (It isn't clear whether or not Legolas would have been able to recognize Imrahil's Elvish blood as being specifically of the people of Nimrodel, or specifically Silvan.) I doubt that descendants of Elros who clearly showed their Elvish ancestry would make up a different explanation for their Elvishness, so I think we can accept the "people of Nimrodel" story even without relying on _Unfinished Tales_. > And we know of no Avari who ever chose to go to Aman (assuming that > they retained the choice of sailing over Sea after Aman was removed > from the circles of the world). Ah, but this is an interesting point: if the Silvan populations of Lorien and Mirkwood came from a mixture of Eldarin and Avari stock, then we have fairly concrete evidence that some (at least partial) Avari _did_ sail West. After all, UT tells us (in the section "Amroth and Nimrodel") that "The Silvan Elves (it is remarked here) 'were never wholly free of an unquiet and a yearning for the Sea which at times drove some of them to wander from their homes.'" On the other hand, if we assume that the Avari were free from such longings, this quote provides evidence that the Silvan Elves did not have Avari ancestors. Aha! The index of UT defines "Silvan Elves" as "Nandorin Elves who never passed west of the Misty Mountains but remained in the Vale of Anduin and in Greenwood the Great." We later read "The Silvan Elves hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and became small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from Avari; 'but they still remembered that they were in origin Eldar, members of the Third Clan...'" I think that UT makes it quite clear that the Silvan Elves did _not_ have Avari forebears. Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8r37mc$o2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 71 Message-ID: <5MoB5.225$v3.3913@uchinews> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 970332289 128.135.12.7 (Sat, 30 Sep 2000 11:44:49 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 11:44:49 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:44:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27804 Quoth cstewart@chcf.org: > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > > Quoth brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown): > > > Do we know canonically that Imrahil's Elvish ancestry was other > > > than the three great matings of Elf and Human? > Yes. What's your source on this? My impression is that Stan was asking for truly canonical information on Imrahil's ancestry: specifically, information from LotR (and possibly from _The Hobbit_ and a handfull of other minor sources). For a bit of discussion of my thoughts on the various levels of "canon" in Tolkien's works, take a look at my Tolkien Booklist at http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/, linked near the top of the page. There are useful tidbits in the Tolkien Newsgroups FAQ and in the old draft "Great Debates FAQ" in the same place, so take a look. > > Well, I think it's fairly clear in LotR that the prevailing belief > > was of a connection with the Elves of Lorien. Doesn't Legolas say > > something about it being clear that not all of Nimrodel's people > > passed over the sea? > Precisely. Imrazor the Numenorean wed Mithrellas of Lorien, one of the > companions of Nimrodel who had migrated from Lorien to Gondor. Right... but as far as I know our only source for that information is _Unfinished Tales_. I personally take most of UT very seriously, but it's always nice to see confirmation of its stories in LotR or other more canonical texts. Now that I'm at home, I can cite the relevant passage: Legolas says, "Hail, lord! It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lorien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water." Imrahil confirms that this is the "lore of [his] land". As I said earlier, I think that Legolas's observation proves that there _was_ Elvish blood in the line of Dol Amroth. (It isn't clear whether or not Legolas would have been able to recognize Imrahil's Elvish blood as being specifically of the people of Nimrodel, or specifically Silvan.) I doubt that descendants of Elros who clearly showed their Elvish ancestry would make up a different explanation for their Elvishness, so I think we can accept the "people of Nimrodel" story even without relying on _Unfinished Tales_. > And we know of no Avari who ever chose to go to Aman (assuming that > they retained the choice of sailing over Sea after Aman was removed > from the circles of the world). Ah, but this is an interesting point: if the Silvan populations of Lorien and Mirkwood came from a mixture of Eldarin and Avari stock, then we have fairly concrete evidence that some (at least partial) Avari _did_ sail West. After all, UT tells us (in the section "Amroth and Nimrodel") that "The Silvan Elves (it is remarked here) 'were never wholly free of an unquiet and a yearning for the Sea which at times drove some of them to wander from their homes.'" On the other hand, if we assume that the Avari were free from such longings, this quote provides evidence that the Silvan Elves did not have Avari ancestors. Aha! The index of UT defines "Silvan Elves" as "Nandorin Elves who never passed west of the Misty Mountains but remained in the Vale of Anduin and in Greenwood the Great." We later read "The Silvan Elves hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and became small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from Avari; 'but they still remembered that they were in origin Eldar, members of the Third Clan...'" I think that UT makes it quite clear that the Silvan Elves did _not_ have Avari forebears. Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8r37mc$o2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 71 Message-ID: <5MoB5.225$v3.3913@uchinews> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 970332289 128.135.12.7 (Sat, 30 Sep 2000 11:44:49 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 11:44:49 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:44:49 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27828 Quoth cstewart@chcf.org: > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > > Quoth brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown): > > > Do we know canonically that Imrahil's Elvish ancestry was other > > > than the three great matings of Elf and Human? > Yes. What's your source on this? My impression is that Stan was asking for truly canonical information on Imrahil's ancestry: specifically, information from LotR (and possibly from _The Hobbit_ and a handfull of other minor sources). For a bit of discussion of my thoughts on the various levels of "canon" in Tolkien's works, take a look at my Tolkien Booklist at http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/, linked near the top of the page. There are useful tidbits in the Tolkien Newsgroups FAQ and in the old draft "Great Debates FAQ" in the same place, so take a look. > > Well, I think it's fairly clear in LotR that the prevailing belief > > was of a connection with the Elves of Lorien. Doesn't Legolas say > > something about it being clear that not all of Nimrodel's people > > passed over the sea? > Precisely. Imrazor the Numenorean wed Mithrellas of Lorien, one of the > companions of Nimrodel who had migrated from Lorien to Gondor. Right... but as far as I know our only source for that information is _Unfinished Tales_. I personally take most of UT very seriously, but it's always nice to see confirmation of its stories in LotR or other more canonical texts. Now that I'm at home, I can cite the relevant passage: Legolas says, "Hail, lord! It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lorien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water." Imrahil confirms that this is the "lore of [his] land". As I said earlier, I think that Legolas's observation proves that there _was_ Elvish blood in the line of Dol Amroth. (It isn't clear whether or not Legolas would have been able to recognize Imrahil's Elvish blood as being specifically of the people of Nimrodel, or specifically Silvan.) I doubt that descendants of Elros who clearly showed their Elvish ancestry would make up a different explanation for their Elvishness, so I think we can accept the "people of Nimrodel" story even without relying on _Unfinished Tales_. > And we know of no Avari who ever chose to go to Aman (assuming that > they retained the choice of sailing over Sea after Aman was removed > from the circles of the world). Ah, but this is an interesting point: if the Silvan populations of Lorien and Mirkwood came from a mixture of Eldarin and Avari stock, then we have fairly concrete evidence that some (at least partial) Avari _did_ sail West. After all, UT tells us (in the section "Amroth and Nimrodel") that "The Silvan Elves (it is remarked here) 'were never wholly free of an unquiet and a yearning for the Sea which at times drove some of them to wander from their homes.'" On the other hand, if we assume that the Avari were free from such longings, this quote provides evidence that the Silvan Elves did not have Avari ancestors. Aha! The index of UT defines "Silvan Elves" as "Nandorin Elves who never passed west of the Misty Mountains but remained in the Vale of Anduin and in Greenwood the Great." We later read "The Silvan Elves hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and became small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from Avari; 'but they still remembered that they were in origin Eldar, members of the Third Clan...'" I think that UT makes it quite clear that the Silvan Elves did _not_ have Avari forebears. Steuard Jensen ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Lines: 54 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:34:13 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.73.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 970335253 12.78.73.107 (Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:34:13 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:34:13 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters2!bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27728 wrote in message news:8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > 1. By the 4th Age, did Avari have the right to sail to Aman? There are contradictory texts. > 2. If not, when exactly was it lost? In some texts they lost it when they did not set out on the Great March. In others if they refused the summons at the end of the First Age. In yet others the right extended to all Elves in perpetuity. > 3. If not, what happened to their spirits when their bodies were > killed? The available texts indicate that those spirits either went to separate Halls in Mandos or lingered in Middle Earth as 'houseless' entities. > 4. If not, what would be the fate of an Avari/Sindar or > Avari/Calaquendi offspring? There is a bit about this in some of the texts. Generally to the view that Elves came to be part of the people they dwelt with. Thus, if raised amongst the Sindar they would be Sindar. > 5. If so, what happened to the apparently thousands left in > Middle-earth when Cirdan returned into the West? Actually, I don't think there were all that many left. However, some would still sail from time to time on their own (Legolas made his own ship) and some remained in M-E and faded away. > 6. If they "faded," what, exactly, happened to them? They became invisible and bodiless, unable to effect the physical world. > 7. If Avari and Men reproduced, were the descendants Peredhil? Yes, in the sense that 'peredhil' means simply 'half elven'. No, in the sense that the term was usually applied only to the descendants of Luthien and Idril. > 8. Is there any reason to doubt that there were Avari/human > matings? Not particularly. In the older texts there are several examples of children of mixed parentage outside the lines of Luthien and Idril. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39D3035A.47806224@erols.com> Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:34:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.73.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 970335254 12.78.73.107 (Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:34:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:34:14 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters2!bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27732 "Steuard Jensen" wrote in message news:ttKA5.83$v3.1685@uchinews... > Imrahil's Elvish blood was fairly certainly Silvan (or at least, > not Avari: there were no Avari in Lorien, as far as I know). Actually, we had this debate a while back... I took the same part you are now professing, but there ARE contradictory texts on the matter which indicate that the Silvan elves WERE Avari. > This raises an interesting question, though: the Avari are to my > knowledge _never_ seen in the stories after the start of the > Great Journey. Oh, they are there but only in bits and pieces. Even in the texts where the Silvan elves are Teleri who left the Great March they became later mixed with the remnants of the Avari. Eol is an Avar in some variants, and in others the vast majority of the Elves seen in TH and LotR were. All depends on which version you go with. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:34:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.73.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 970335255 12.78.73.107 (Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:34:15 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:34:15 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters2!bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27736 "Dave Lind" wrote in message news:t0TA5.13848$hD4.3679216@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > I think that any Elf that had lived in Middle-earth for over six > thousand years, sixty centuries, like Cirdan, Galadriel, Elrond, > and Celeborn would have already faded. > In LotR Legolas walked on snow without leaving foot-prints. This > can't wholly be explained by Legolas' light shoes. An interesting theory, but how then to explain their ability to physically interact with the world? Legolas was quite solid enough to wield bow and knife apparently. Perhaps 'partial fading'? > The term Peredhel (Q. Perelda "half-Elda") wouldn't apply to > progeny of the union of Avar and Adan, since neither parent was > an Edhel. Edhel was frequently used as a term for any sort of elf... it means literally 'people of the stars', which applies to all elves. 'Edhellond' the 'Elf haven' was a home and sailing point for the Elves of Lorien. ###### Lines: 26 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 30 Sep 2000 21:24:37 GMT References: <5MoB5.225$v3.3913@uchinews> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Message-ID: <20000930172437.19935.00000766@nso-fi.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27860 In article <5MoB5.225$v3.3913@uchinews>, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: >Aha! The index of UT defines "Silvan Elves" as "Nandorin Elves who >never passed west of the Misty Mountains but remained in the Vale of >Anduin and in Greenwood the Great." We later read "The Silvan Elves >hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and >became small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from >Avari; 'but they still remembered that they were in origin Eldar, >members of the Third Clan...'" I think that UT makes it quite clear >that the Silvan Elves did _not_ have Avari forebears. How do you factor in the LOTR App F passages we were discussing that states that East-elves (which were specifically not Eldar) made up most of the population of Lorien and Greenwood? I'm not all that comforable choosing UT as a source over an Appendix to LOTR. I think we're in that "Tolkien forgot but would have felt bound by his published works" area. The whole Silvan/Avari/Nandor area seemed to be in a state of flux in his later years and in the end I think it's best to rely on the published texts. Russ ###### Lines: 15 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 30 Sep 2000 21:24:37 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Message-ID: <20000930172437.19935.00000767@nso-fi.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!small.fr.clara.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27861 In article , "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: >> 3. If not, what happened to their spirits when their bodies were >> killed? > >The available texts indicate that those spirits either went to >separate Halls in Mandos or lingered in Middle Earth as 'houseless' >entities. Not really separate Halls. In Laws and Customs (?) it says that the reembodied report that there are Avari in the Halls but they keep to themselves, or something like that. Russ ###### From: cbstewart@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 22:12:18 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 177 Message-ID: <8r5ofv$gfi$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8r37mc$o2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <5MoB5.225$v3.3913@uchinews> Reply-To: cstewart@chcf.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.209.86.251 To: colin@anet.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Sep 30 22:12:18 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.01; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x65.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 63.209.86.251 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDcbstewart Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27846 In article <5MoB5.225$v3.3913@uchinews>, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > Quoth cstewart@chcf.org: > > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > > > Quoth brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown): > > > > Do we know canonically that Imrahil's Elvish ancestry was other > > > > than the three great matings of Elf and Human? > > > Yes. > > What's your source on this Legolas, upon first meeting Imrahil. > (It isn't clear > whether or not Legolas would have been able to recognize Imrahil's > Elvish blood as being specifically of the people of Nimrodel, or > specifically Silvan.) Legolas seems clear about what he senses in Imrahil. He might have attributed the Prince's Elven blood to 1. descent from Elros 2. some other Eldarin strain or 3. some elf ethnicity that is not associated with immigration West over sea. But he does not. For Legolas, the long unknown fate of the elves who migrated from Lorien to Amroth is now partially solved: at least one of *that* particular tribe of Elves is now perceived to have remained in Middle-earth, while the majority are presumed to have departed from the Amroth havens. We have no reason to doubt Legolas's impressions, for they are confirmed by the lore of Imrahil's people. > > And we know of no Avari who ever chose to go to Aman (assuming that > > they retained the choice of sailing over Sea after Aman was removed > > from the circles of the world). > > Ah, but this is an interesting point: if the Silvan populations of > Lorien and Mirkwood came from a mixture of Eldarin and Avari stock, > then we have fairly concrete evidence that some (at least partial) > Avari _did_ sail West. Not necessarily. It depends upon what "mixture" means: Avari and Nandor may have lived side-by-side in realms ruled by Sindar, Noldor or Peredhel, but they may seldom have inter-married. Or some distinct lines of Avari and Nandor descent may have continued unmixed, even if the majority of the population amalgamated. We have no information about inter-tribal trends in general, nor about the ancestry of Mithrellas in particular. If she had been of pure Avari stock, then what? > After all, UT tells us (in the section "Amroth > and Nimrodel") that "The Silvan Elves (it is remarked here) 'were > never wholly free of an unquiet and a yearning for the Sea which at > times drove some of them to wander from their homes.'" On the other > hand, if we assume that the Avari were free from such longings, this > quote provides evidence that the Silvan Elves did not have Avari > ancestors. Again, it's a matter of degree. The Nandor and the Sindar lords of the Silvan Avari may have aroused some remote longing among them for Aman (rather like my own wistfulness about one day pilgrimaging to the Holy Land:-) after all, they accepted the Sindarin lords as their natural chieftains, including and perhaps especially Calaquendi. But if that interest did not develop into the determination to immigrate to Aman, they were true to their Avari roots. The above passage suggests that only a minority of Silvan Elves actually sought the Sea. In fact, according to UT, the entire romance of Amroth and Nimrodel is about the culture war in Lorien between the Sindar and the Silvans: "Though Sindarin in descent he lived after the manner of the Silvan Elves and housed in the tall trees of a great green mound, ever after called Cerin Amroth. this he did because of his love for Nimrodel. For long years he had loved her, and taken no wife, since she would not wed with him. She loved him indeed, for he was beautiful even for one of the Eldar, and valiant and wise; but she was of the Silvan Elves, and regretted the incoming of the Elves from the West, who (as she said) brought wars and destroyed the peace of old. She would speak only the Silvan tongue, even after it had fallen into disuse among the folk of Lorien...and at the last they plighted their troth. 'To this I will be true,' she said, 'and we shall be wedded when you bring me to a land of peace.'...'But there is none now in Middle-earth,' he said, 'and will not be for the Elven-fok ever again. We must seek for a passage over the Great Sea to the ancient West.' Then he told her of the haven in the south, where many of his own people had come long ago. 'They are now diminshed, for most have set sail into the West; but the remnant of them still build ships and offer passage to any of their kin that come to them, weary of Middle-earth. It is said that the grace that the Valar gave to us to pass over the Sea is granted also now to any of those who made the Great Journey, even if they did not come in ages past to the shores and have not yet beheld the Blessed Land.'" This, at least, answers one of my questions: The Avari never wished and had no right to sail West over Sea, whether they later lived apart from or mingled among the Green-elves of Lorien, Mirkwood and Amroth. > Aha! The index of UT defines "Silvan Elves" as "Nandorin Elves who > never passed west of the Misty Mountains but remained in the Vale of > Anduin and in Greenwood the Great." We later read "The Silvan Elves > hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and > became small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from > Avari; 'but they still remembered that they were in origin Eldar, > members of the Third Clan...'" I think that UT makes it quite clear > that the Silvan Elves did _not_ have Avari forebears. Your finding is persuasive. But where,then, did we get the notion that Lorien, Mirkwood and Amroth were at least partially peopled by Avari? Is it the confusing overlap among Silvan, Wood, Dark, Green and East Elves? One possible source of the mix-up is this passage from the Silmarillion: "Others of the Eldar there were who crossed the mountains of Ered Luin in that age and passed into the inner lands. Many of these were Teleri, survivors of Doriath and Ossiriand; and they established realms among the Silvan Elves in woods and mountains far from the sea, for which nonetheless they ever yearned in their hearts." If both the Silvan and Ossiriand (Green-) Elves were entirely Nandorin, this passage awkwardly suggests that one branch of the Nandor "took over" the lands of another branch. It sounds more plausible if the Silvan Elves had become a blended culture of Nandor and Avari who might naturally accept other Nandor as their leaders whose culture had been that of Sindarin Doriath. But it is also possible that the few Nandor left after Denethor led most of them into Ossiriand had propagated into tribes large enough to support a Green-elven elite. Another confusing passage is in the appendices of LotR: "...and hence it [Sindarin] was the tongue of all those Elves and Elf-lords that appear in this history. For these were all of Eldarin race, even where the folk that they ruled were of the lesser kindreds." If the Silvan Elves were Nandor who were, in turn, Eldarin, clearly some Eldar ruled over elves who were non-Eldar. By definition this means Avari. This does not of course, prove that Lorien had an Avari population, nor that the Amroth emigrants did, nor that Mithrellas was. But we are led full round: If Mithrellas was a Lorien elf, therefore a Silvan, therefore a Nandor, therefore a Teleri, how can Tolkien's statement in LotR be true, "There were three unions of the Eldar and the Edain: Luthien and Beren; Idril and Tuor; Arwen and Aragorn." Two ways out suggest themselves: One, Tolkien's correction needs correcting: the "three unions" were between "High-elves and Men" as originally stated (High-elves being defined as those who saw, or were descended from those who saw, the Light of the Two Trees). Two: Somewhere along the way, Tolkien re-defined the Nandor (Wood- elves) from Avari to Eldar. This latter option presents itself because it alone explains why Tolkien would leave out Imrahil, a conspicuous if not a significant character in LotR, when counting up Eldar/Edain matings: It is Tolkien who has Legolas identify in Imrahil descent from an Elf who would otherwise have answered the summons to Aman, i.e. who must have been of Eldarin race. This makes sense only if, at LotR's second publishing, Tolkien perceived the Nandor-Green-elves-Silvans as a branch of Teleri who were not accounted among the Eldar, although they retained the right to complete the Great Journey. This would jibe with the tragedy of Amroth and Nimrodel, in which the latter rejects association with and cultural domination by the Eldar. Yet Amroth tells Mithrellas that the one way the two star-crossed lovers can find peace together is in Aman, and he has to remind her that she is eligible to go thither -- apparently she felt no of the yearning for the Sea and in the end she does not show up for Amroth's ship to Eldamar, prompting him to fatally abandon the voyage. Later, it seems Tolkien changed his mind and counted the Nandor openly among the Eldar. Yet we are left with a contradiction: either there were at least four Peredhil unions and Tolkien miscounted, or Mithrellas, at least, was a Silvan Elf who was not an Elda. LotR implies that the latter is true, but UT implies that the former is true. Which canon do we accept? Charles B. Stewart cstewart@chcf.org Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Lines: 54 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 22:51:11 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.62.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.mi.home.com 970354271 24.0.62.34 (Sat, 30 Sep 2000 15:51:11 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 15:51:11 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.mi.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27869 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:rupB5.12358$tl2.883566@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > "Dave Lind" wrote in message > news:t0TA5.13848$hD4.3679216@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > > > I think that any Elf that had lived in Middle-earth for over six > > thousand years, sixty centuries, like Cirdan, Galadriel, Elrond, > > and Celeborn would have already faded. > > > In LotR Legolas walked on snow without leaving foot-prints. This > > can't wholly be explained by Legolas' light shoes. > > An interesting theory, but how then to explain their ability to > physically interact with the world? Legolas was quite solid enough > to wield bow and knife apparently. Perhaps 'partial fading'? One of the rejected "modes" of Elvish reincarnation was "self-incarnation", whereby the fea (which retains a complete blueprint of the body) could by its own volition take up matter and reconstitute its hroa. Like I said, this idea was rejected but you can't through out the baby with the bath water. I content that even after the rejection of "self-incarnation" the fea still retains a complete blueprint and a faded-elf could use it to "appear" visible and tangible. Through "Art" (karme) the Elves had the ability to make constructions of the mind (olori) visible and tangible. I think that what Tolkien wrote regarding self-incarnation could later be applied to the faded elves - except that the hroar that they made were not "real". > > > The term Peredhel (Q. Perelda "half-Elda") wouldn't apply to > > progeny of the union of Avar and Adan, since neither parent was > > an Edhel. > > Edhel was frequently used as a term for any sort of elf... it > means literally 'people of the stars', which applies to all elves. The name was given by Orome to all the Elves at Cuivienen, but it was later applied to and used by only those who followed him. > 'Edhellond' the 'Elf haven' was a home and sailing point for the > Elves of Lorien. Yes, but which Elves? The Avari, as far as I recall do not sail West but their Nandorin neighbors do. The Elves that used Edhellond must have been the Beleriandic ruling-class of Lorien and Mirkwood (i.e. the Noldor and Sindar) and the remnants of the Nandor that never went West, not the Avari-commoners. Dave ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000929141536.19935.00000448@nso-fi.aol.com> Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 22:58:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.62.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.mi.home.com 970354702 24.0.62.34 (Sat, 30 Sep 2000 15:58:22 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 15:58:22 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.mi.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27872 "Russ" wrote in message news:20000929141536.19935.00000448@nso-fi.aol.com... > In article , > brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > > >Do we know canonically that Imrahil's Elvish ancestry was other than > >the three great matings of Elf and Human? Perhaps he was simply > >descended from a cadet branch of the royal house of Numenor, in > >which case he would have been constrained by the choice of Elros and > >would not need to be considered a special case. > > > > Cannonically? No. There is the story of one of Nimrodel's maid's having a go > with on the the early lords of Dol Amroth - but that's only in Unfinished Tales > or HOME. > > Since amaid of Nimrodel would in all liklihood be an Avari Silvan elf, it's > outside the three Elda-edain thingy anyway. "Silvan" does not equal Avari. The "Woodland-elves" were appearently a mixture of both Nandorin and Avarin elements. Nimrodel could have been among the Sindarin ruling class, or she might have been one of the Nandor who were native to the region, or she might have been an Avari. Dave ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <5MoB5.225$v3.3913@uchinews> <20000930172437.19935.00000766@nso-fi.aol.com> Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Lines: 13 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 23:09:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.62.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.mi.home.com 970355364 24.0.62.34 (Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:09:24 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 16:09:24 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.mi.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27871 "Russ" wrote in message news:20000930172437.19935.00000766@nso-fi.aol.com... > The whole Silvan/Avari/Nandor area seemed to be in a state of flux in his later > years and in the end I think it's best to rely on the published texts. So which unpublished texts are we to believe? :) Dave ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? References: <5MoB5.225$v3.3913@uchinews> <20000930172437.19935.00000766@nso-fi.aol.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 40 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 970369798 128.135.12.7 (Sat, 30 Sep 2000 22:09:58 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 22:09:58 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 03:09:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27838 Quoth mcresq@aol.com (Russ): > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: > >I think that UT makes it quite clear that the Silvan Elves did > >_not_ have Avari forebears. > How do you factor in the LOTR App F passages we were discussing that > states that East-elves (which were specifically not Eldar) made up > most of the population of Lorien and Greenwood? My reading is that the definition of "Eldar" probably changed between the time Tolkien wrote LotR and the time he worked out his thoughts on the Nandor (of course, he probably would have changed the definition back once he realized the contradiction with published texts). However, I do not think that the identification of "Avari" and "East-elves" is a necessary reading of the line in Appendix F. Instead, I would suggest that the West-elves/East-elves distinction could easily be one of cultural sophistication. To summarize what I suspect would be the "correct" labels for various groups, I'll make a little list: Eldar: Calaquendi and Sindar (usual definitions) West-elves = Eldar (as stated in App. F) East-elves: Nandor and Avari Nandor = Elves of the Great Journey who (initially) dropped out before crossing the Misty Mountains Silvan = Probably synonymous with "Nandor", or perhaps only referring to those who settled in actual "silvan" areas such as Greenwood and Lorien Avari = Elves who refused the Journey altogether > I'm not all that comforable choosing UT as a source over an Appendix > to LOTR. I think we're in that "Tolkien forgot but would have felt > bound by his published works" area. Absolutely... but I think that there's room for more agreement between published and unpublished works than you've suggested. I could, of course, be quite wrong, but I don't see any serious problems with my conclusions above. Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2000 12:36:53 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 20 Message-ID: <8r70m3$nso$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8r37mc$o2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p015.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 970393091 24472 212.205.253.15 (1 Oct 2000 09:38:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Oct 2000 09:38:11 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!128.39.3.166!uninett.no!newsfeed1.enitel.no!masternews.telia.net!news-sto.telia.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27849 wrote in message news:8r37mc$o2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article , > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > > Quoth brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown): > > > > Perhaps he was simply > > > descended from a cadet branch of the royal house of Numenor... > > That is also likely, since the ancestors of Imrahil were among the > Faithful of Numenor and were kin to Elendil, who raised one of them to > the rank of feudal Prince of Dol Amroth. But probably they were > descended from Elros through a female line or cadet male branch. Elendil also descended from Elros through a female line (through Silmarien). Aris Katsaris ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Lines: 43 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 01 Oct 2000 15:02:53 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20001001110253.27230.00000100@nso-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27853 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: >> How do you factor in the LOTR App F passages we were discussing that >> states that East-elves (which were specifically not Eldar) made up >> most of the population of Lorien and Greenwood? > >My reading is that the definition of "Eldar" probably changed between >the time Tolkien wrote LotR and the time he worked out his thoughts on >the Nandor (of course, he probably would have changed the definition >back once he realized the contradiction with published texts). >However, I do not think that the identification of "Avari" and >"East-elves" is a necessary reading of the line in Appendix F. >Instead, I would suggest that the West-elves/East-elves distinction >could easily be one of cultural sophistication. Except that "Eldar" was placed in parentheses right after the word "West-elves," and "Eldar" was defined later in App. F, a definition that excludes the Nandor. >To summarize what I suspect would be the "correct" labels for various >groups, I'll make a little list: > >Eldar: Calaquendi and Sindar (usual definitions) >West-elves = Eldar (as stated in App. F) >East-elves: Nandor and Avari >Nandor = Elves of the Great Journey who (initially) dropped out before > crossing the Misty Mountains >Silvan = Probably synonymous with "Nandor", or perhaps only referring > to those who settled in actual "silvan" areas such as > Greenwood and Lorien >Avari = Elves who refused the Journey altogether My problem is with your definition of Silvan. AFAIK, there's no real definition of Silvan other than they are the elves that populated Greenwood and Lorien. But App F tells us that the population of Greenwood and Lorien were mostly non-Eldarin East-elves. I think its a mistake to use UT as the only non-canon text. There are other texts in HOME, such as Quendi and Eldar that specifically place Avari in these areas. Russ ###### Lines: 12 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 01 Oct 2000 15:02:53 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Message-ID: <20001001110253.27230.00000101@nso-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27854 In article , "Dave Lind" writes: >> The whole Silvan/Avari/Nandor area seemed to be in a state of flux in his >later >> years and in the end I think it's best to rely on the published texts. > >So which unpublished texts are we to believe? :) The ones that support my position, of course. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 01 Oct 2000 15:02:53 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20001001110253.27230.00000102@nso-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27855 In article , "Dave Lind" writes: >> Since amaid of Nimrodel would in all liklihood be an Avari Silvan elf, >it's >> outside the three Elda-edain thingy anyway. > >"Silvan" does not equal Avari. The "Woodland-elves" were appearently a >mixture of both Nandorin and Avarin elements. Nimrodel could have been among >the Sindarin ruling class, or she might have been one of the Nandor who were >native to the region, or she might have been an Avari. > I agree but was going by the odds. The Avari would probably have greatly outnumbered the Nandor among the Silvans. Thus my statement that Mithrellas would likely have been Avari. And her being Avari is consistent with the three eldar-edain union thingy. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Lines: 95 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 01 Oct 2000 15:02:54 GMT References: <8r5ofv$gfi$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20001001110254.27230.00000103@nso-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27856 In article <8r5ofv$gfi$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, cbstewart@my-deja.com writes: > >This, at least, answers one of my questions: The Avari never wished and >had no right to sail West over Sea, whether they later lived apart from >or mingled among the Green-elves of Lorien, Mirkwood and Amroth. This view is confirmed in Letters where Tolkien refers to the Avari's choice as irrevocable. >> Aha! The index of UT defines "Silvan Elves" as "Nandorin Elves who >> never passed west of the Misty Mountains but remained in the Vale of >> Anduin and in Greenwood the Great." We later read "The Silvan Elves >> hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and >> became small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from >> Avari; 'but they still remembered that they were in origin Eldar, >> members of the Third Clan...'" I think that UT makes it quite clear >> that the Silvan Elves did _not_ have Avari forebears. > >Your finding is persuasive. But where,then, did we get the notion that >Lorien, Mirkwood and Amroth were at least partially peopled by Avari? >Is it the confusing overlap among Silvan, Wood, Dark, Green and East >Elves? That's App F of LOTR which states that Lorien and Mirkwood were populated by explicitly non-Eldarin East-elves. East-elves are the Avari (and could include the Nandor depending on which writing period we're talking about) >One possible source of the mix-up is this passage from the >Silmarillion: "Others of the Eldar there were who crossed the mountains >of Ered Luin in that age and passed into the inner lands. Many of these >were Teleri, survivors of Doriath and Ossiriand; and they established >realms among the Silvan Elves in woods and mountains far from the sea, >for which nonetheless they ever yearned in their hearts." > >If both the Silvan and Ossiriand (Green-) Elves were entirely Nandorin, >this passage awkwardly suggests that one branch of the Nandor "took >over" the lands of another branch. It sounds more plausible if the >Silvan Elves had become a blended culture of Nandor and Avari who might >naturally accept other Nandor as their leaders whose culture had been >that of Sindarin Doriath. But it is also possible that the few Nandor >left after Denethor led most of them into Ossiriand had propagated into >tribes large enough to support a Green-elven elite. > >Another confusing passage is in the appendices of LotR: "...and hence >it [Sindarin] was the tongue of all those Elves and Elf-lords that >appear in this history. For these were all of Eldarin race, even where >the folk that they ruled were of the lesser kindreds." > >If the Silvan Elves were Nandor who were, in turn, Eldarin, clearly >some Eldar ruled over elves who were non-Eldar. By definition this >means Avari. This does not of course, prove that Lorien had an Avari >population, nor that the Amroth emigrants did, nor that Mithrellas was. > > >Later, it seems Tolkien changed his mind and counted the Nandor openly >among the Eldar. Yet we are left with a contradiction: either there >were at least four Peredhil unions and Tolkien miscounted, or >Mithrellas, at least, was a Silvan Elf who was not an Elda. LotR >implies that the latter is true, but UT implies that the former is >true. Which canon do we accept? > There are texts we're ignoring - specifically Quendi and Eldar in Home. UT is not the only non-canon source on this issue. Some pre-LOTR drafts place the Nandor in a third category - neither Eldar nor Avari. However *some* post LOTR writings do, as you say, place them in the Eldar camp. The problem is that the post-LOTR writings that imply the Silvans were exclusively Eldarin Nandor directly contradict App F of LOTR. It also contradicts other post-LOTR texts (mostly Quendi and Eldar, I think) that explicitly state that Avari migrated into Eriador, the Vale of Anduin and Greenwood, right alongside the Nandor. Silvan as exclusively Eldarin Nandor doesn't appear logical to me. First, it contradicts the LOTR App F. Second, there is other late writing that contradicts it and secifically place Avari in the the Silvan realms. Third, if we accept the 144 proportions given in HOME, the non-Beleriandic Nandor were not a sufficient enough population to support the Second Age Silvan civilizations we know about. What seems to make the most sense to me and has support in later writings as well as definitionally in LOTR App F is that most Nandor followed Denethor into Beleriand and became the Laiquendi and were decimated in the Wars. The remaining Nandor lived in small communities in Eriador, the Vale of Anduin and Greenwood throughout the First Age. During this time there was a significant migration of Avari into these same areas and the Avari and Nandor combined into the Silvan culture that the Beleriandic refugees eventually met early in the Second Age. Russ ###### From: tar_elenion@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 17:39:34 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 47 Message-ID: <8r7ssl$vga$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20001001110253.27230.00000102@nso-ch.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.197 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Oct 01 17:39:34 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 ptlum1.sfba.home.com[1809EFD3] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.197 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!codeine.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27882 In article <20001001110253.27230.00000102@nso-ch.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > In article , "Dave Lind" > writes: > > >> Since amaid of Nimrodel would in all liklihood be an Avari Silvan elf, > >it's > >> outside the three Elda-edain thingy anyway. > > > >"Silvan" does not equal Avari. The "Woodland-elves" were appearently a > >mixture of both Nandorin and Avarin elements. Nimrodel could have been among > >the Sindarin ruling class, or she might have been one of the Nandor who were > >native to the region, or she might have been an Avari. > > > > I agree but was going by the odds. The Avari would probably have greatly > outnumbered the Nandor among the Silvans. Thus my statement that Mithrellas > would likely have been Avari. And her being Avari is consistent with the three > eldar-edain union thingy. > > Russ > In Quendi and Eldar: "the Lindarin elements in the western Avari were friendly to the Eldar, and willing to learn from them; and so close was the feeling of kinship between the remnants of the Sindar, the Nandor, and the Lindarin Avari, that later in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin they often became merged together". So (as far as population goes) we have Sindarin 'remnants', Lindarin 'elements' and the Nandor with no modifier indicating possible population. UT has the Silvan folk (Tawarwaith) as a small and scattered people until the Sindar come and cause them to be 'ordered' again. Tar-Elenion Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Lines: 52 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:03:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.72.182 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 970423380 12.78.72.182 (Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:03:00 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:03:00 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27885 "Dave Lind" wrote in message news:z7uB5.16621$hD4.4377325@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > I content that even after the rejection of "self-incarnation" the > fea still retains a complete blueprint and a faded-elf could use > it to "appear" visible and tangible. Through "Art" (karme) the > Elves had the ability to make constructions of the mind (olori) > visible and tangible. I agree with the 'visible' part. It's the 'tangible' that I can't reconcile... after all, if that were the case then the 'fading' would be no great drawback at all - in fact, rather an advantage. "This the Eldar mean when they speak of their spirits consuming them; and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldalie on earth will have become as spirits invisible to mortal eyes, unless they will to be seen by some among Men into whose minds the may enter directly." MR, Laws and Customs of the Eldar > The Avari, as far as I recall do not sail West but their Nandorin > neighbors do. After a bit of digging I'd have to agree that there is no specific indication of Avari sailing West. There ARE statements saying that 'elves' would do so with no limitations mentioned for what SORT of elves. Also, there are a few references indicating that Avari could 'become' Sindar (and 'Calben') by joining them or that Avari and other groups (Sindar & Nandor) mingled together to become a common people. As such I'd say that while no "Avari" would sail West (and there are at least two passages which state as much) many of the 'Avari' ceased being so... becoming part of other groups and eventually passing into the West with them. > The Elves that used Edhellond must have been the Beleriandic > ruling-class of Lorien and Mirkwood (i.e. the Noldor and Sindar) > and the remnants of the Nandor that never went West, not the > Avari-commoners. The Sindar and Nandor were just as much 'commoners' as the Avari... and all three groups in later texts became one - the 'Silvan' Elves. "For in contrast the Lindarin elements in the western Avari were friendly to the Eldar, and willing to learn from them; and so close was the feeling of kinship between the remnants of the Sindar, the Nandor, and the Lindarin Avari, that later in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin they often became merged together." WotJ, Quendi and Eldar - C (Clan Names) ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20001001110253.27230.00000102@nso-ch.aol.com> <8r7ssl$vga$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:05:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.72.182 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 970423501 12.78.72.182 (Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:05:01 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:05:01 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.72!wnfilter2!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27887 wrote in message news:8r7ssl$vga$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In Quendi and Eldar: "the Lindarin elements in the western Avari > were friendly to the Eldar, and willing to learn from them; and > so close was the feeling of kinship between the remnants of the > Sindar, the Nandor, and the Lindarin Avari, that later in Eriador > and the Vale of Anduin they often became merged together". Heh. Great minds think alike. Us too apparently. :) ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20001001110253.27230.00000101@nso-ch.aol.com> Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:08:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.62.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.mi.home.com 970423695 24.0.62.34 (Sun, 01 Oct 2000 11:08:15 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 11:08:15 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.mi.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27895 "Russ" wrote in message news:20001001110253.27230.00000101@nso-ch.aol.com... > In article , "Dave Lind" > writes: > > >> The whole Silvan/Avari/Nandor area seemed to be in a state of flux in his > >later > >> years and in the end I think it's best to rely on the published texts. > > > >So which unpublished texts are we to believe? :) > > The ones that support my position, of course. I thought so. Dave ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000930172437.19935.00000767@nso-fi.aol.com> Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:19:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.72.182 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 970424341 12.78.72.182 (Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:19:01 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:19:01 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.72!wnfilter2!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27889 "Russ" wrote in message news:20000930172437.19935.00000767@nso-fi.aol.com... > Not really separate Halls. Right... there are indications of separate Halls for Men and Dwarves, but the text we both recall says; "Concerning the fate of other elves, especially of the Dark-elves who refused the summons to Aman, the Eldar know little. The Re- born report that in Mandos there are many elves, and among them many of the Alamanyar, but that there is in the Halls of Waiting little mingling or communing of kind with kind, or indeed of any one fea with another. For the houseless fea is solitary by nature, and turns only towards those with whom, maybe, it formed strong bonds of love in life." MR, Laws and Customs - Of Rebirth However, 'Alamanyar' is a term for all the Moriquendi EXCEPT the Avari. As such, this passage does not necessarily tell us anything about their fate after all. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8r5ofv$gfi$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20001001110254.27230.00000103@nso-ch.aol.com> Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Lines: 17 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:30:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.72.182 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 970425004 12.78.72.182 (Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:30:04 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:30:04 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!europa.netcrusader.net!204.127.161.3!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters2!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27888 "Russ" wrote in message news:20001001110254.27230.00000103@nso-ch.aol.com... > The problem is that the post-LOTR writings that imply the Silvans > were exclusively Eldarin Nandor directly contradict App F of > LOTR. Only if we assume that 'East elves' in Appendix F is synonymous with 'Avari'. Which is possible, but not certain. And given that Tolkien did not define the term (East elves) in LotR he could later have given it any reasonable definition he chose... such as 'Elves who never reached Beleriand', which would then be entirely consistent with his later direct statements about the Silvan and Nandor elves. ###### From: tar_elenion@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:44:18 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 97 Message-ID: <8r80m1$26o$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20001001110253.27230.00000100@nso-ch.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.197 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Oct 01 18:44:18 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 ptlum1.sfba.home.com[1809EFD3] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x61.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.197 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27879 In article <20001001110253.27230.00000100@nso-ch.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard > Jensen) writes: > > >> How do you factor in the LOTR App F passages we were discussing that > >> states that East-elves (which were specifically not Eldar) made up > >> most of the population of Lorien and Greenwood? > > > >My reading is that the definition of "Eldar" probably changed between > >the time Tolkien wrote LotR and the time he worked out his thoughts on > >the Nandor (of course, he probably would have changed the definition > >back once he realized the contradiction with published texts). (Please note my following commentary is not an attempt to dispute the facts presented but more an attempt to reconcile an apparent contradiction.) Tar-Elenion Yes the definition seems to have changed. One of the later versions of 'F' has 'Noblest of these were languages of the Western Elves (Eldar) of which two are met: Quenya and Sindarin'. This seems to imply that there are other languages of the Eldar (though I suppose it could be taken as a reference to dialects). It also has 'For there were other Elves [besides the Noldor and Sindar that were mentioned just prior] of various kinds in the world; and many were Eastern Elves that had harkened to no summons to the Sea... Of that kind were the Elves of Greenwood the Great; yet among them were also were...'. We seem to have here that there are West Elves (Noldor and Sindar), East Elves (Avari for they refused the summons) and other kinds that are in between the two. This is actually a case where I do think that JRRT would not have changed his mind back due to an apparent contradiction. He would have 'corrected' the text or perhaps attributed it to some faulty conception of the compiler. The use of Eldar as _all_ those who go on the Great Journey is too consistant. > >However, I do not think that the identification of "Avari" and > >"East-elves" is a necessary reading of the line in Appendix F. > >Instead, I would suggest that the West-elves/East-elves distinction > >could easily be one of cultural sophistication. > > Except that "Eldar" was placed in parentheses right after the word > "West-elves," and "Eldar" was defined later in App. F, a definition that > excludes the Nandor. > Problem being that there is no definition or use of 'Avari' in LotR. > >To summarize what I suspect would be the "correct" labels for various > >groups, I'll make a little list: > > > >Eldar: Calaquendi and Sindar (usual definitions) > >West-elves = Eldar (as stated in App. F) > >East-elves: Nandor and Avari > >Nandor = Elves of the Great Journey who (initially) dropped out before > > crossing the Misty Mountains > >Silvan = Probably synonymous with "Nandor", or perhaps only referring > > to those who settled in actual "silvan" areas such as > > Greenwood and Lorien > >Avari = Elves who refused the Journey altogether > > My problem is with your definition of Silvan. AFAIK, there's no real > definition of Silvan other than they are the elves that populated Greenwood and > Lorien. But App F tells us that the population of Greenwood and Lorien were > mostly non-Eldarin East-elves. > Another thought to resolve any apparent contradictions: Perhaps it could be taken as accurate at the (internal) time the work was compiled. That is by the end of the Third Age and into the Fourth the major portion of the population was 'Avarin', though earlier the population was more mixed including Eldarin Nandor (and Sindar) and (non-Eldarin) Lindarin Avari. > I think its a mistake to use UT as the only non-canon text. There are other > texts in HOME, such as Quendi and Eldar that specifically place Avari in these > areas. > > Russ > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20001001110253.27230.00000100@nso-ch.aol.com> Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Lines: 45 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <1ELB5.2123$0n.187928@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:46:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.72.182 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 970425981 12.78.72.182 (Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:46:21 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:46:21 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!204.127.161.3!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters2!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27884 "Russ" wrote in message news:20001001110253.27230.00000100@nso-ch.aol.com... > Except that "Eldar" was placed in parentheses right after the > word "West-elves," and "Eldar" was defined later in App. F, a > definition that excludes the Nandor. You are presumably referring to; "_Elves_ has been used to translate both _Quendi_, 'the speakers', the high-elven name for all their kind, and Eldar, the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm and came there at the beginning of days (save the SIndar only)." However, doesn't that rather argue AGAINST East-elves being synonymous with Avari? If Elves are split into West and East groups, West-elves = Eldar, and Eldar excludes the Nandor... then the Nandor are East-elves. > My problem is with your definition of Silvan. AFAIK, there's no > real definition of Silvan other than they are the elves that > populated Greenwood and Lorien. But App F tells us that the > population of Greenwood and Lorien were mostly non-Eldarin East- > elves. Which is consistent with the definitions of 'Silvan' we do have; "The Silvan Elves (Tawarwaith) were in origin Teleri, and so remoter kin of the Sindar, though even longer separated from them than the Teleri of Valinor. They were descended from those of the Teleri who, on the Great Journey, were daunted by the Misty Mountains and lingered in the Vale of Anduin..." History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Appendix A: The Silvan Elves and their Speech Further down the same section is another notable bit; "The Silvan Elves hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and became small and scattered peoples, hardly to be distinguished from Avari..." The Silvan Elves were thus Nandorin and (judging by other texts) Avari in origin. ###### From: tar_elenion@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:57:18 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8r81ec$2nk$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8r5ofv$gfi$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20001001110254.27230.00000103@nso-ch.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.196 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Oct 01 18:57:18 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 ptlum1.sfba.home.com[1809EFD2] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x54.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.196 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27880 In article , "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: > "Russ" wrote in message > news:20001001110254.27230.00000103@nso-ch.aol.com... > > > The problem is that the post-LOTR writings that imply the Silvans > > were exclusively Eldarin Nandor directly contradict App F of > > LOTR. > > Only if we assume that 'East elves' in Appendix F is synonymous > with 'Avari'. Which is possible, but not certain. And given that > Tolkien did not define the term (East elves) in LotR he could later > have given it any reasonable definition he chose... such as 'Elves > who never reached Beleriand', which would then be entirely > consistent with his later direct statements about the Silvan and > Nandor elves. > Perhaps an even better way to reconcile an 'apparent' contradiction than what I suggested above. Tar-Elenion Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Lines: 66 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 01 Oct 2000 21:31:33 GMT References: <1ELB5.2123$0n.187928@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20001001173133.09413.00000234@nso-md.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27951 In article <1ELB5.2123$0n.187928@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: >> Except that "Eldar" was placed in parentheses right after the >> word "West-elves," and "Eldar" was defined later in App. F, a >> definition that excludes the Nandor. > >You are presumably referring to; > >"_Elves_ has been used to translate both _Quendi_, 'the >speakers', the high-elven name for all their kind, and Eldar, >the name of the Three Kindreds that sought for the Undying Realm >and came there at the beginning of days (save the SIndar only)." > >However, doesn't that rather argue AGAINST East-elves being >synonymous with Avari? If Elves are split into West and East >groups, West-elves = Eldar, and Eldar excludes the Nandor... then >the Nandor are East-elves. No, I'm referring to a passage earlier in App F: "The Elves far back in the Eldar Days became divided into two main branches: the West-elves (Eldar) and the East-elves. Of the latter kind were most the of the elven folk of Mirkwood and Lorien." Thus the Silvan folk of Mirkwood and Lorien were mostly East-elven which were *not* Eldar. >> My problem is with your definition of Silvan. AFAIK, there's no >> real definition of Silvan other than they are the elves that >> populated Greenwood and Lorien. But App F tells us that the >> population of Greenwood and Lorien were mostly non-Eldarin East- >> elves. > >Which is consistent with the definitions of 'Silvan' we do have; > >"The Silvan Elves (Tawarwaith) were in origin Teleri, and so remoter >kin of the Sindar, though even longer separated from them than the >Teleri of Valinor. They were descended from those of the Teleri who, >on the Great Journey, were daunted by the Misty >Mountains and lingered in the Vale of Anduin..." >History of Galadriel and Celeborn, Appendix A: The Silvan Elves and >their Speech > >Further down the same section is another notable bit; >"The Silvan Elves hid themselves in woodland fastnesses beyond the >Misty Mountains, and became small and scattered peoples, hardly to be >distinguished from Avari..." > >The Silvan Elves were thus Nandorin and (judging by other texts) >Avari in origin. Equating the East-elves with the Nandor doesn't work. The text states that the East-elves were a "main branch" However, we know the Nandor were a minor branch at best and the ones who didn't follow Denethor were a minority of an already minor branch. I don't think simply quoting that UT material is sufficient because there are other post-LOTR texts that would contradict the Nandor=Silvan position. The probem with the texts that make the Nandor=Silvan is that they are also the texts that make the Nandor=Eldar, which is contradictory to the latter App F quote. Russ ###### Lines: 29 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 01 Oct 2000 21:31:33 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Message-ID: <20001001173133.09413.00000235@nso-md.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27952 In article , "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: >> The problem is that the post-LOTR writings that imply the Silvans >> were exclusively Eldarin Nandor directly contradict App F of >> LOTR. > >Only if we assume that 'East elves' in Appendix F is synonymous >with 'Avari'. Which is possible, but not certain. And given that >Tolkien did not define the term (East elves) in LotR he could later >have given it any reasonable definition he chose... such as 'Elves >who never reached Beleriand', which would then be entirely >consistent with his later direct statements about the Silvan and >Nandor elves. He could do that except he defined Eldar later in App F. Since he previously equated West-elves with Eldar it stands to reason that East-elves are not Eldar. I agree that there was a Nandoran element in the Silvans. I rely on the "two main branches" wording which can imply there might have been minor branch(es) such as the Nandor not defined with West-elves and East-elves. This would be consistent with his earlier statements that Nandor were neither Eldar not Avari. I've found no way to correlate his definition of Eldar in App F with statements in certain post LOTR writings that the Nandor were Eldar. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 01 Oct 2000 21:31:33 GMT References: <8r7ssl$vga$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20001001173133.09413.00000236@nso-md.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27953 In article <8r7ssl$vga$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, tar_elenion@my-deja.com writes: >In Quendi and Eldar: "the Lindarin elements in the western Avari were >friendly to the Eldar, and willing to learn from them; and so close was >the feeling of kinship between the remnants of the Sindar, the Nandor, >and the Lindarin Avari, that later in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin >they often became merged together". >So (as far as population goes) we have Sindarin 'remnants', >Lindarin 'elements' and the Nandor with no modifier indicating possible >population. >UT has the Silvan folk (Tawarwaith) as a small and scattered people >until the Sindar come and cause them to be 'ordered' again. > But we do have the 144 proportions and the knowledge that of what little population the Nandor had most were decimated in Beleriand. The Eriadorian, Greenwood and Lorien Nandor were a minorty of a small minority to begin with. Russ ###### From: T.Arvind@uea.ac.uk (T. T. Arvind) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: 1 Oct 2000 22:39:35 GMT Organization: University of East Anglia Lines: 33 Message-ID: <8r8ef7$mci$5@cpca14.uea.ac.uk> References: <20000930172437.19935.00000767@nso-fi.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lib_0200_6145.cpc.uea.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: cpca14.uea.ac.uk 970439975 22930 139.222.126.145 (1 Oct 2000 22:39:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uea.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Oct 2000 22:39:35 GMT X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.9 (Released Version) (x86 32bit) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!fu-berlin.de!server1.netnews.ja.net!news.uea.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27919 In article , conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net says... > >"Russ" wrote in message >news:20000930172437.19935.00000767@nso-fi.aol.com... > >> Not really separate Halls. > >Right... there are indications of separate Halls for Men and >Dwarves, but the text we both recall says; > >"Concerning the fate of other elves, especially of the Dark-elves >who refused the summons to Aman, the Eldar know little. The Re- >born report that in Mandos there are many elves, and among them >many of the Alamanyar, but that there is in the Halls of Waiting >little mingling or communing of kind with kind, or indeed of any >one fea with another. For the houseless fea is solitary by nature, >and turns only towards those with whom, maybe, it formed strong >bonds of love in life." >MR, Laws and Customs - Of Rebirth > >However, 'Alamanyar' is a term for all the Moriquendi EXCEPT the >Avari. As such, this passage does not necessarily tell us anything >about their fate after all. I seem to remember reading in one of the HOME books that when each elf died, its fea received a messenger from Mandos summoning it to the Halls of Mandos, which it was free to accept or refuse. If it refused, it remained in Middle Earth, and the indications were that it would lead a pretty miserable life. On another point, could such a fea make its way back to Mandos if it repented of its decision? ###### From: tar_elenion@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 22:56:53 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 70 Message-ID: <8r8ffk$cqc$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20001001173133.09413.00000235@nso-md.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.197 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Oct 01 22:56:53 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 ptlum1.sfba.home.com[1809EFD3] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.197 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27914 In article <20001001173133.09413.00000235@nso-md.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > In article , "Conrad > Dunkerson" writes: > > >> The problem is that the post-LOTR writings that imply the Silvans > >> were exclusively Eldarin Nandor directly contradict App F of > >> LOTR. > > > >Only if we assume that 'East elves' in Appendix F is synonymous > >with 'Avari'. Which is possible, but not certain. And given that > >Tolkien did not define the term (East elves) in LotR he could later > >have given it any reasonable definition he chose... such as 'Elves > >who never reached Beleriand', which would then be entirely > >consistent with his later direct statements about the Silvan and > >Nandor elves. > > He could do that except he defined Eldar later in App F. Since he previously > equated West-elves with Eldar it stands to reason that East-elves are not > Eldar. > > I agree that there was a Nandoran element in the Silvans. I rely on the "two > main branches" wording which can imply there might have been minor branch(es) > such as the Nandor not defined with West-elves and East-elves. This would be > consistent with his earlier statements that Nandor were neither Eldar not > Avari. > > I've found no way to correlate his definition of Eldar in App F with statements > in certain post LOTR writings that the Nandor were Eldar. > > Russ > Try this: JRRT defines the 'West-Elves' (ie the Noldor and Sindar, those who went at least as far West as Beleriand before returning east) as Eldar. However he does not define the 'East-elves' as specifically not Eldar. He only defines the 'West-elves' as specifically Eldar. Hence the Nandor could be East-elves and Eldar (they heeded the Summons and thus by definition must be Eldar). In similar circumstance the Sindar are Eldar but are not Kalaquendi (who by definition are Eldar). The Avari are Moriquendi as are the Sindar (who are Eldar). So we have Eldar who are Calaquendi and Eldar who are Moriquendi. We have Moriquendi who are Eldar and Moriquendi who are Avari. Similarly we could have 'West-elves' who are Kalaquendi and 'West- elves' who are Moriquendi. Why not 'East-elves' who are Eldar and 'East- elves' who are Avari? Or on a similar note, we have it in Q&E that during the period of the Exile the term Kalaquendi went out of common use and Moriquendi was used for all Elves that were not Noldor or Sindar, 'that is the Avari OR to ANY KIND of Elves that had not long dwelt in Beleriand ans were not subjects of Elwe. So we could here have 'West-elves' (those of Beleriandic origin, all of whom are Eldar) and 'East-elves' (those Eldar and the Avari who are not of Beleriandic origin). Tar-Elenion Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: tar_elenion@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 23:24:12 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 54 Message-ID: <8r8h2o$e11$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8r7ssl$vga$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20001001173133.09413.00000236@nso-md.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.197 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Oct 01 23:24:12 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 ptlum1.sfba.home.com[1809EFD3] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.197 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!stueberl.r-kom.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!news-out.digex.net.MISMATCH!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27901 In article <20001001173133.09413.00000236@nso-md.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > In article <8r7ssl$vga$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, tar_elenion@my-deja.com writes: > > >In Quendi and Eldar: "the Lindarin elements in the western Avari were > >friendly to the Eldar, and willing to learn from them; and so close was > >the feeling of kinship between the remnants of the Sindar, the Nandor, > >and the Lindarin Avari, that later in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin > >they often became merged together". > >So (as far as population goes) we have Sindarin 'remnants', > >Lindarin 'elements' and the Nandor with no modifier indicating possible > >population. > >UT has the Silvan folk (Tawarwaith) as a small and scattered people > >until the Sindar come and cause them to be 'ordered' again. > > > > But we do have the 144 proportions and the knowledge that of what little > population the Nandor had most were decimated in Beleriand. The Eriadorian, > Greenwood and Lorien Nandor were a minorty of a small minority to begin with. > > Russ > Do you have a citation for the non-Beleriandic Nandor being a minority of the Nandor? Quendi and Eldar implies differently: 'it was applied to the large following of Lenwe, who refused to cross the Hithaeglir... Many remained and settled in lands they had reached... some turned aside and wandered southwards. There was... a slow drift westward of the Moriquendi during the captivity of Melkor, and eventually groups of the Nando... spread widely in Eriador. Some of these finally entered Beleriand...'. Only 'some' of the Nandor from those 'groups' that spread into Eriador came into Beleriand. It seems to me that only a minority of the Nandor entered into Beleriand. The Nandor were a 'small minority' of the overall population of the Quendi. But they were nearly a third of the Lindarin Eldar that remained in Middle-earth. Tar-Elenion Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20001001173133.09413.00000235@nso-md.aol.com> Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 23:37:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.73.210 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 970443439 12.78.73.210 (Sun, 01 Oct 2000 23:37:19 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2000 23:37:19 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters2!bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27942 "Russ" wrote in message news:20001001173133.09413.00000235@nso-md.aol.com... > I've found no way to correlate his definition of Eldar in App F > with statements in certain post LOTR writings that the Nandor > were Eldar. The contradiction then is in the definition of 'Eldar', which went through considerable fluctuations. The definition given in the Appendices of RotK clearly contradicts that used elsewhere. At that, the term was not infrequently used in different ways even within a single text.... as the meaning of it evolved over time WITHIN the story. However, the definition used in LotR is clear enough and the conclusions as to the possible nature of the Silvan elves based on this are consistent with later conclusions (Nandor and/or Avar) despite the different definitions of 'Eldar'. ###### Lines: 67 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 02 Oct 2000 00:54:50 GMT References: <8r8h2o$e11$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Message-ID: <20001001205450.21621.00000230@nso-fi.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27948 In article <8r8h2o$e11$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, tar_elenion@my-deja.com writes: >> But we do have the 144 proportions and the knowledge that of what >little >> population the Nandor had most were decimated in Beleriand. The >Eriadorian, >> Greenwood and Lorien Nandor were a minorty of a small minority to >begin with. >> >> Russ >> > >Do you have a citation for the non-Beleriandic Nandor being a minority >of the Nandor? >Quendi and Eldar implies differently: >'it was applied to the large following of Lenwe, who refused to cross >the Hithaeglir... Many remained and settled in lands they had >reached... some turned aside and wandered southwards. There was... a >slow drift westward of the Moriquendi during the captivity of Melkor, >and eventually groups of the Nando... spread widely in Eriador. Some of >these finally entered Beleriand...'. >Only 'some' of the Nandor from those 'groups' that spread into Eriador >came into Beleriand. It seems to me that only a minority of the Nandor >entered into Beleriand. I think the Silmarillion texts gives a different spin that Denethor gathered up a fair chunk. >The Nandor were a 'small minority' of the overall population of the >Quendi. But they were nearly a third of the Lindarin Eldar that >remained in Middle-earth. The issue when looking at the Silvan population is not the Nandor's proportion to the Sindar but their proportion to the Avari. Let's look at the proportions (for the sake of clarity I use Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri and not the original tribe names): Of the 144, 62 made it to Aman (14 Vanyar, 28 Noldor and 20 Teleri) Of the 82 who remained in Middle-earth, 56 were Avari (evenly split between Noldor and Teleri) and 26 were Telerin Eldar (18 Sindar and 8 Nandor). Thus, even before the Beleriandic wars the Avari outnumbered the Nandor 56-8 or 7-1. In Quendi and Eldar Tolkien writes that the Avari migrated even into Beleriand and settled in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin. "But the Loremasters of later days, when more friendly relations had been established with Avari of various kinds in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin..." (Note 9) In a linguistic point, Tolkien wrote of the various Avarin forms of the word Quendi: "The Avarin forms cited by the Loremaster were: kindi, cuid, hwenti, windan, kinn-lai, penni...The form penni is cited as coming from the 'Wood-elven' speech of the Vale of Anduin, and these Elves were among the most friendly to the fugitives from Beleriand, and held themselves akin to the remnants of the Sindar." Thus the Avarin forms are specifically cited as coming from the wood-elves. It was cited elsewhere a passage that the Nandor who remained east of Blue Mountains because scarcly different than the Avari. All these quotes point to the conclusion that as the great mass of Avari migrated west, they absorbed the Nandor who remained east of the Blue Mountains. Russ ###### From: tar_elenion@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 02:38:48 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 91 Message-ID: <8r8sfn$mm1$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8r8h2o$e11$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20001001205450.21621.00000230@nso-fi.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.197 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Oct 02 02:38:48 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 ptlum1.sfba.home.com[1809EFD3] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.197 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!205.231.236.10!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27908 In article <20001001205450.21621.00000230@nso-fi.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > In article <8r8h2o$e11$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, tar_elenion@my-deja.com writes: > >Quendi and Eldar implies differently: > >'it was applied to the large following of Lenwe, who refused to cross > >the Hithaeglir... Many remained and settled in lands they had > >reached... some turned aside and wandered southwards. There was... a > >slow drift westward of the Moriquendi during the captivity of Melkor, > >and eventually groups of the Nando... spread widely in Eriador. Some of > >these finally entered Beleriand...'. > >Only 'some' of the Nandor from those 'groups' that spread into Eriador > >came into Beleriand. It seems to me that only a minority of the Nandor > >entered into Beleriand. > > I think the Silmarillion texts gives a different spin that Denethor gathered up > a fair chunk. > G.A. 1350: "[Dan] led away a numerous people and went south down the river... Some... dwelt age-long in the woods of the Vale... some came to the mouths of the Anduin... and others passing by the White Mountains came north again and entered the wilderness of Eriador... Denethor...gathered such host of his scattered folk as he could and led them...into Beleriand." I think it implies that a minority went into Beleriand ('gathered such of his scaterred folk as he could') and this is reinforced by Q&E. [Snip of population breakdowns] I do not disagree. > In Quendi and Eldar Tolkien writes that the Avari migrated even into Beleriand Well they "crept" onto Beleriand; and only in 'small and secret groups' (Q&E 'Sindarin'). > and settled in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin. "But the Loremasters of later > days, when more friendly relations had been established with Avari of various > kinds in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin..." (Note 9) > > In a linguistic point, Tolkien wrote of the various Avarin forms of the word > Quendi: "The Avarin forms cited by the Loremaster were: kindi, cuid, hwenti, > windan, kinn-lai, penni...The form penni is cited as coming from the > 'Wood-elven' speech of the Vale of Anduin, and these Elves were among the most > friendly to the fugitives from Beleriand, and held themselves akin to the > remnants of the Sindar." > > Thus the Avarin forms are specifically cited as coming from the wood- elves. One Avarin form not all of them. It > was cited elsewhere a passage that the Nandor who remained east of Blue > Mountains because scarcly different than the Avari. All these quotes point to > the conclusion that as the great mass of Avari migrated west, they absorbed the > Nandor who remained east of the Blue Mountains. > > Russ > > Only the Lindarin elements of the western Avari merged with the Nandor and the remnants of the Sindar (Q&E 'Clan Names'). The Tatyarin elements tend to be less friendly and even hostile (Q&E). I think the key is 'elements in the western Avari'. This implies that there are other (non-western Avari) and these were only a portion of the Avari not necesarily a 'great mass' Tar-Elenion Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: cbstewart@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 17:46:57 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 67 Message-ID: <8rahmf$ur9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: cstewart@chcf.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.88.66.141 To: colin@anet.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Oct 02 17:46:57 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x71.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 199.88.66.141 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDcbstewart Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-hub.siol.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27918 In article , "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: > "Dave Lind" wrote in message > news:z7uB5.16621$hD4.4377325@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > "This the Eldar mean when they speak of their spirits consuming > them; and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldalie on earth will > have become as spirits invisible to mortal eyes, unless they will > to be seen by some among Men into whose minds the may enter > directly." > MR, Laws and Customs of the Eldar Is this work regarded as canonical? > > The Avari, as far as I recall do not sail West but their Nandorin > > neighbors do. > > After a bit of digging I'd have to agree that there is no specific > indication of Avari sailing West. There ARE statements saying that > 'elves' would do so with no limitations mentioned for what SORT of > elves. Amroth is quoted in UT saying that Nimrodel and he could sail West to find peace together only because they were Eldar, i.e. descendants of kindreds that had begun the Great Journey. > Also, there are a few references indicating that Avari > could 'become' Sindar (and 'Calben') by joining them or that Avari > and other groups (Sindar & Nandor) mingled together to become a > common people. As such I'd say that while no "Avari" would sail > West (and there are at least two passages which state as much) many > of the 'Avari' ceased being so... becoming part of other groups and > eventually passing into the West with them. The references you cite above don't seem to support your use of the adjective "many." In fact, the circumstances suggest that it was more likely to have been few. "Mingling" and "merging" into one people does not, to me, mean blending as much as mixing, i.e. it doesn't imply that Avari inter-married with Eldar to a significant degree. It means that they lived as one community in Middle-earth for as long as the Eldar chose to remain. Again, the tale of Amroth and Nimrodel suggests that even in such merged communities, sub-ethnicity persisted as did intra-cultural alienation and isolation among the Silvan Elves. > > The Elves that used Edhellond must have been the Beleriandic > > ruling-class of Lorien and Mirkwood (i.e. the Noldor and Sindar) > > and the remnants of the Nandor that never went West, not the > > Avari-commoners. > > The Sindar and Nandor were just as much 'commoners' as the Avari... > and all three groups in later texts became one - the 'Silvan' > Elves. Tolkien is clear that all of the Woodland realms inhabited by mixtures of Eldar and non-Eldar were ruled by Eldar, whether Calaquendi or not. Nothing suggests that these realms lacked social hierarchy any more than did the Shire. If all of the Woodland sovereigns were Eldar, it seems likely that their kinsmen and companions would have constituted a Silvan aristocracy grouped in a descending order of Calaquendi, Sindar, Nandor and Avari. Charles B. Stewart cstewart@chcf.org Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Lines: 90 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Oct 2000 18:42:01 GMT References: <8rahmf$ur9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20001002144201.09413.00000472@nso-md.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!fr.clara.net!small.fr.clara.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27950 In article <8rahmf$ur9$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, cbstewart@my-deja.com writes: >In article , > "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: >> "Dave Lind" wrote in message >> news:z7uB5.16621$hD4.4377325@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... >> > The Avari, as far as I recall do not sail West but their Nandorin >> > neighbors do. >> >> After a bit of digging I'd have to agree that there is no specific >> indication of Avari sailing West. There ARE statements saying that >> 'elves' would do so with no limitations mentioned for what SORT of >> elves. > >Amroth is quoted in UT saying that Nimrodel and he could sail West to >find peace together only because they were Eldar, i.e. descendants of >kindreds that had begun the Great Journey. One of Tolkien's letters refers to the Avarin choice as irrevocable. > >> Also, there are a few references indicating that Avari >> could 'become' Sindar (and 'Calben') by joining them or that Avari >> and other groups (Sindar & Nandor) mingled together to become a >> common people. As such I'd say that while no "Avari" would sail >> West (and there are at least two passages which state as much) many >> of the 'Avari' ceased being so... becoming part of other groups and >> eventually passing into the West with them. > >The references you cite above don't seem to support your use of the >adjective "many." I also think it's a leap to suppose that those Avari who were accepted into Sindarin society lost their Avarin status. Tolkien referred to the Avars choice as irrevocable and I don't think that could be changed by a decision on the ground in Middle-earth. > In fact, the circumstances suggest that it was more >likely to have been few. "Mingling" and "merging" into one people does >not, to me, mean blending as much as mixing, i.e. it doesn't imply that >Avari inter-married with Eldar to a significant degree. It means that >they lived as one community in Middle-earth for as long as the Eldar >chose to remain. Again, the tale of Amroth and Nimrodel suggests that >even in such merged communities, sub-ethnicity persisted as did >intra-cultural alienation and isolation among the Silvan Elves. I agree that Avarin merging in Eldarin society rare. But I think the above compares apples and oranges. We're dealing with three different "mergers" here. Rare Avarin mergers into Sindarin culture in First Age Beleriand is quite different than Sindarin merging into Silvan culture in Second Age. And both of those are entirely different that the Avari/Nandor merger that formed the Silvan Elves in the first place. That appeared to be a full merger of the two societies into something new - Silvan. In certain ways however, the mergers operated similarly - in all three, the smaller culture was subsumed within the larger culture. Avari (or Nandor) who were accepted into Doriath became more Sindar-like. Nandor who joined the larger Avarin populations became "scarcely" different from the Avari. And Sindar who joined the Silvan cultures were purposefully on a "back to our roots" sort of thing. In the latter case, while Sindarin rule perhaps elevated those Silvan cultures to a certain extent, I think the net effect was that the Sindar who moved into those societies became more Silvan than the other way around. >> > The Elves that used Edhellond must have been the Beleriandic >> > ruling-class of Lorien and Mirkwood (i.e. the Noldor and Sindar) >> > and the remnants of the Nandor that never went West, not the >> > Avari-commoners. >> >> The Sindar and Nandor were just as much 'commoners' as the Avari... >> and all three groups in later texts became one - the 'Silvan' >> Elves. > >Tolkien is clear that all of the Woodland realms inhabited by mixtures >of Eldar and non-Eldar were ruled by Eldar, whether Calaquendi or not. >Nothing suggests that these realms lacked social hierarchy any more than >did the Shire. If all of the Woodland sovereigns were Eldar, it seems >likely that their kinsmen and companions would have constituted a Silvan > aristocracy grouped in a descending order of Calaquendi, Sindar, Nandor >and Avari. The only calaquendi, indeed the only high elf, I recall living in a Silvan realm was Galadriel. They arrived only after the "failure" of the original Sindarin royal house of Lorien. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Lines: 86 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Oct 2000 23:16:26 GMT References: <8r8sfn$mm1$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20001002191626.10724.00000011@nso-md.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28010 In article <8r8sfn$mm1$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, tar_elenion@my-deja.com writes: >> In Quendi and Eldar Tolkien writes that the Avari migrated even into >Beleriand > >Well they "crept" onto Beleriand; and only in 'small and secret groups' >(Q&E 'Sindarin'). > >> and settled in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin. "But the Loremasters >of later >> days, when more friendly relations had been established with Avari of >various >> kinds in Eriador and the Vale of Anduin..." (Note 9) >> >> In a linguistic point, Tolkien wrote of the various Avarin forms of >the word >> Quendi: "The Avarin forms cited by the Loremaster were: kindi, cuid, >hwenti, >> windan, kinn-lai, penni...The form penni is cited as coming from the >> 'Wood-elven' speech of the Vale of Anduin, and these Elves were among >the most >> friendly to the fugitives from Beleriand, and held themselves akin to >the >> remnants of the Sindar." >> >> Thus the Avarin forms are specifically cited as coming from the wood- >elves. > >One Avarin form not all of them. Right, but the point is that the text explicitly states that a wood-elven linguistic form is Avarin. And not just any form - its their form of Quendi, the name they call their race. > It >> was cited elsewhere a passage that the Nandor who remained east of >Blue >> Mountains because scarcly different than the Avari. All these quotes >point to >> the conclusion that as the great mass of Avari migrated west, they >absorbed the >> Nandor who remained east of the Blue Mountains. >Only the Lindarin elements of the western Avari merged with the Nandor >and the remnants of the Sindar (Q&E 'Clan Names'). >The Tatyarin elements tend to be less friendly and even hostile (Q&E). >I think the key is 'elements in the western Avari'. This implies that >there are other (non-western Avari) and these were only a portion of >the Avari not necesarily a 'great mass' It implies (and says explicitly) several things. The first clause you're referring to is talking about the Lindarin Avari who migrated to Beleriand in the First Age. It was comparing them to the Tatyaran (Noldorin) Avari that first made it to Beleriand. I agree that the clause you are citing appears to limit the later "merging" Avari to the Lindarin branch. However, the word "elements" is in the phrase talking about the First Age migration, not the Second Age merging. Even if we limit the Avari element of the Silvans to the Lindarin branch, we are still looking at a *minimum* of 3.5 to 1. After taking into account the near annihiliation of the Laiquendi, the proportion is probably 4 or 5 to 1. One thing we're all forgetting however, at least in terms of the Third Age, is that much of the Avari were killed in the mid-Second Age during the War of the Elves and Sauron. We all often assume that Greenwood and Lorien were the only Silvan (or otherwise non-Eldarin) realms, but that is not the case. There were non-Eldarin Elves throughout Eriador and the Vale of Anduin in the First and Second Ages but Sauron's scorch and burn war did a pretty good job of wiping out those populations - Greenwood and Lorien were the exceptions. But the merging of Avari and Nandor was occuring long before the Sindarin refugees arrived on the scene. There was already an existing merged Silvan culture that Amdir and Oropher found when they migrated east. One problem we have is that the only Silvans we actually meet in LOTR are clearly, as you point out, those of Greenwood and Lorien who are products of the Sindar/Nandor/Lindarin Avari merging. But as I argue above, this is only a remnant of greater Avari or Avari-influenced societies that existed before the War of the Elves and Sauron. So this point occurred to me as I'm writing this: clearly the wood-elves of Lorien and Greenwood are Silvan, but they are not necessarily the only sort of elf that could be called Silvan. Russ ###### From: tar_elenion@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 23:26:44 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 52 Message-ID: <8rb5jd$h7r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8rahmf$ur9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20001002144201.09413.00000472@nso-md.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.197 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Oct 02 23:26:44 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 ptlum1.sfba.home.com[1809EFD3] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.197 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!codeine.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27992 > > > >> Also, there are a few references indicating that Avari > >> could 'become' Sindar (and 'Calben') by joining them or that Avari > >> and other groups (Sindar & Nandor) mingled together to become a > >> common people. As such I'd say that while no "Avari" would sail > >> West (and there are at least two passages which state as much) many > >> of the 'Avari' ceased being so... becoming part of other groups and > >> eventually passing into the West with them. > > > >The references you cite above don't seem to support your use of the > >adjective "many." > > I also think it's a leap to suppose that those Avari who were accepted into > Sindarin society lost their Avarin status. Tolkien referred to the Avars > choice as irrevocable and I don't think that could be changed by a decision on > the ground in Middle-earth. > Q&E, at the very least, _implies_ differently. > >Tolkien is clear that all of the Woodland realms inhabited by mixtures > >of Eldar and non-Eldar were ruled by Eldar, whether Calaquendi or not. > >Nothing suggests that these realms lacked social hierarchy any more than > >did the Shire. If all of the Woodland sovereigns were Eldar, it seems > >likely that their kinsmen and companions would have constituted a Silvan > > aristocracy grouped in a descending order of Calaquendi, Sindar, Nandor > >and Avari. > > The only calaquendi, indeed the only high elf, I recall living in a Silvan > realm was Galadriel. They arrived only after the "failure" of the original > Sindarin royal house of Lorien. > > Russ > Either UT or Q&E has it that some Noldo survivors from Eregion dwelt in Lorien. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: cbstewart@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 01:31:46 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 61 Message-ID: <8rbcu3$n7b$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8rahmf$ur9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20001002144201.09413.00000472@nso-md.aol.com> Reply-To: cstewart@chcf.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.88.66.141 To: colin@anet.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Oct 03 01:31:46 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x57.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 199.88.66.141 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDcbstewart Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!fu-berlin.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27991 In article <20001002144201.09413.00000472@nso-md.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > In article <8rahmf$ur9$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, cbstewart@my-deja.com writes: > > >In article , > > "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: > >> "Dave Lind" wrote in message >> > I also think it's a leap to suppose that those Avari who were accepted into > Sindarin society lost their Avarin status. Tolkien referred to the Avars > choice as irrevocable and I don't think that could be changed by a decision on > the ground in Middle-earth. I agree. My impression was that those who felt no temptation to leave Middle-earth when the Summons was issued were, by their nature, different from Elves who did, and that subsequent differences between Avari and Eldar compounded this fundamental difference. Whereas with the Eldar it was more of a mixed bag; all felt the Summons, but were not sufficiently drawn by it to commence immigration, doing so out of love and/or loyalty for others of their kindred who were completely enraptured by the Summons. > And both of those are entirely different that the Avari/Nandor merger that > formed the Silvan Elves in the first place. That appeared to be a full merger > of the two societies into something new - Silvan. I take Silvan to be another word for "woodland"; Silvan elves, of whatever original tribal affiliations, were defined by their lifestyle. Of those who shared that lifestyle, at least one (Galadriel) was Calaquendi but probably so were a few other escapees from Beleriand. More were Sindar from Doriath, including nearly all of their rulers. Still more were Nandor from Ossiriand and probably the greatest number, based upon the allocation of the 144 original Elves, were Avari. I presume some inter-marriage among them (although I am curious about the post-Middle-earth fate of Eldar/Avari miscegenation) but I also presume that the tribes of Lorien and Mirkwood remained as distinct from one another, culturally, physically and spiritually as were Galadriel, Celeborn and Haldir. Perhaps in other, more isolated communities whose names aren't mentioned, the smaller groups were absorbed into the larger without a trace, like Angles and Saxons in modern Britain. But in the Lorien of the Galadrim and Mirkwood, where the ruling Sindar probably brought significant emigrants in their wake, I imagine the relationship to have been more like that of the Dutch Flemish and French Walloons in Belgium; very mingled at court, relatively segregated in outlying areas. Charles B. Stewart cstewart@chcf.org Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: tar_elenion@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 01:32:21 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 110 Message-ID: <8rbcv6$n7i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8r8sfn$mm1$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20001002191626.10724.00000011@nso-md.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.197 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Oct 03 01:32:21 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 ptlum1.sfba.home.com[1809EFD3] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.197 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27996 > > > It > >> was cited elsewhere a passage that the Nandor who remained east of > >Blue > >> Mountains because scarcly different than the Avari. All these quotes > >point to > >> the conclusion that as the great mass of Avari migrated west, they > >absorbed the > >> Nandor who remained east of the Blue Mountains. > > > > >Only the Lindarin elements of the western Avari merged with the Nandor > >and the remnants of the Sindar (Q&E 'Clan Names'). > >The Tatyarin elements tend to be less friendly and even hostile (Q&E). > >I think the key is 'elements in the western Avari'. This implies that > >there are other (non-western Avari) and these were only a portion of > >the Avari not necesarily a 'great mass' > > It implies (and says explicitly) several things. The first clause you're > referring to is talking about the Lindarin Avari who migrated to Beleriand in > the First Age. It was comparing them to the Tatyaran (Noldorin) Avari that > first made it to Beleriand. I agree that the clause you are citing appears to > limit the later "merging" Avari to the Lindarin branch. However, the word > "elements" is in the phrase talking about the First Age migration, not the > Second Age merging. > The first portion 'Lindarin elements of the western Avari' is not refering to Beleriand it is speaking of them merging in Eriador and the Vales. We already know that only 'small and secret groups' of Avari went to Beleriand and only rare individual Avari joined with the Sindar in Beleriand. > Even if we limit the Avari element of the Silvans to the Lindarin branch, we > are still looking at a *minimum* of 3.5 to 1. After taking into account the > near annihiliation of the Laiquendi, the proportion is probably 4 or 5 to 1. > Only if you think that ALL (26) of the Lindarin Avari migrated to Rhovanion and Eriador. However I do not believe this to be the case. I cite again the 'Lindarin elements of the western Avari'. This implies that there are other non-western Avari and the Lindar are only a portion in the western Avari. > One thing we're all forgetting however, at least in terms of the Third Age, is > that much of the Avari were killed in the mid-Second Age during the War of the > Elves and Sauron. We all often assume that Greenwood and Lorien were the only > Silvan (or otherwise non-Eldarin) realms, but that is not the case. There were > non-Eldarin Elves throughout Eriador and the Vale of Anduin in the First and > Second Ages Hey, I was not forgetting, I've provded cites pointing that out.;) but Sauron's scorch and burn war did a pretty good job of wiping > out those populations - Greenwood and Lorien were the exceptions. > > But the merging of Avari and Nandor was occuring long before the Sindarin > refugees arrived on the scene. There was already an existing merged Silvan > culture that Amdir and Oropher found when they migrated east. > "The Silvan Elves hid themselves... and became a small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from the Avari... under the leadership of these [Sinda lords] they became again an ordered folk..." (UT, Hist. of G&C, Appendix A). > One problem we have is that the only Silvans we actually meet in LOTR are > clearly, as you point out, those of Greenwood and Lorien who are products of > the Sindar/Nandor/Lindarin Avari merging. But as I argue above, this is only a > remnant of greater Avari or Avari-influenced societies that existed before the > War of the Elves and Sauron. So this point occurred to me as I'm writing this: > clearly the wood-elves of Lorien and Greenwood are Silvan, but they are not > necessarily the only sort of elf that could be called Silvan. :( You've lost me here. I am not seeing what this has to do with the discussion, clarify please. Or is this leading to another tangent? Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: tar_elenion@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 02:02:05 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 127 Message-ID: <8re32r$t3g$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8rbcv6$n7i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20001003145836.23109.00000012@nso-fi.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.197 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Oct 04 02:02:05 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 ptlum1.sfba.home.com[1809EFD3] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x54.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.197 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!small.fr.clara.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28030 > >Tar-Elenion: > >The first portion 'Lindarin elements of the western Avari' is not > >refering to Beleriand it is speaking of them merging in Eriador and the > >Vales. We already know that only 'small and secret groups' of Avari > >went to Beleriand and only rare individual Avari joined with the Sindar > >in Beleriand. > Russ: > I'll double check but that's not how I remember it. The first part (the part > with "Lindarin elements" is contrasting their generally good relationship with > that of the Tatyarian Avari. It then goes on to explain that this also led to > continued good relations between the various Lindarin elves later in the Second > Age. > You *can* read it that way. Yes the good relations the Lindarin elements had does apply to the Beleriand (and later time-frame), but I read it as connected to the next part of the sentence (no full stop; just a semicolon keeping it all as one sentence). Hence, as I read it, the western Avari were made up of Lindar (friendly) and Tatyar (unfriendly). But there were other (eastern, nothern, southern or what have you) Avari. The Lindar were only one portion of the western Avari and other Lindarin Avari dwelt elsewhere. > >> Russ: > >> But the merging of Avari and Nandor was occuring long before the > >Sindarin > >> refugees arrived on the scene. There was already an existing merged > >Silvan > >> culture that Amdir and Oropher found when they migrated east. > >> > > Tar-Elenion: > >"The Silvan Elves hid themselves... and became a small and scattered > >people, hardly to be distinguished from the Avari... under the > >leadership of these [Sinda lords] they became again an ordered folk..." > >(UT, Hist. of G&C, Appendix A). > > As I've been arguing, there are problems with that entire essay and related UT > texts from a "canon" point of view, not the least of which is that they > contradict the definition of "Eldar" in LOTR. They also contradict Letter 176 > which confirms the LOTR definition. And they contradict late writings such as > Quendi and Eldar, which place Avari in the woodland realms. > My quote from 'G&C' was to point out that there was no Silvan 'culture' (to any great extent) when the Sindarin princes stepped in. The 'Silvan' Elves were scattered into small groups. Only when the princes came in did they start to unite. I presume you are refering again to 'App. F': west-Elves (Eldar) and east-Elves. As I posted previously, I would prefer to reconcile any '_apparent_ contradiction' before veiwing it as a contradiction. The passage does not define 'Eldar' it defines 'west-Elves'. That is it says the 'west-Elves are Eldar. It does not say that the 'east-Elves' are not Eldar (it does imply that I agree).However there are numerous attested examples of 'dual-classification'. Hence resolve the 'contradiction by allowing the possibility that 'east-Elves' have Avarin and Eldarin elements. Letter 176 is about Gimli, Gloin, Celtic studies and calendars. I think you mean Letter 144, page 176. I don't think that it contradicts UT. It defines the 'Eldar' as those who heard the summons, the 'Lesser Elves' as those who did not answer it. It does not define 'east-Elves' or Nandor or Silvan Elves. It does say that the "lesser Elves hardly appear, except as PART of the people" of Lorien and Mirkwood [emp. mine]. > >> One problem we have is that the only Silvans we actually meet in LOTR > >are > >> clearly, as you point out, those of Greenwood and Lorien who are > >products of > >> the Sindar/Nandor/Lindarin Avari merging. But as I argue above, this > >is only a > >> remnant of greater Avari or Avari-influenced societies that existed > >before the > >> War of the Elves and Sauron. So this point occurred to me as I'm > >writing this: > >> clearly the wood-elves of Lorien and Greenwood are Silvan, but they > >are not > >> necessarily the only sort of elf that could be called Silvan. > > > >:( You've lost me here. I am not seeing what this has to do with the > >discussion, clarify please. Or is this leading to another tangent? > > I'm opining that the Lindarin Avari/Nandor merger might not have been the only > Sindar. Tatyaran Avari could also have been Silvan or there could be mixed > Lindar/Tatyar Avari communities with andy Nandor that sill come under the > Silvan rubric. However, by the end of the Third Age, the only surviving > Silvan communities appear to be those headed by Eldar in Greenwood and Lorien. > > Russ > Possible, but as the Tatyarin Avari were 'unfriendly, treacherous, and even hostile', it might be unlikely that they would readily merge with the others. Tar-Elenion Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Lines: 66 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 03 Oct 2000 18:58:35 GMT References: <8rbcu3$n7b$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Message-ID: <20001003145835.23109.00000011@nso-fi.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28130 In article <8rbcu3$n7b$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, cbstewart@my-deja.com writes: >> I also think it's a leap to suppose that those Avari who were accepted >into >> Sindarin society lost their Avarin status. Tolkien referred to the >Avars >> choice as irrevocable and I don't think that could be changed by a >decision on >> the ground in Middle-earth. > >I agree. My impression was that those who felt no temptation to leave >Middle-earth when the Summons was issued were, by their nature, >different from Elves who did, and that subsequent differences between >Avari and Eldar compounded this fundamental difference. > >Whereas with the Eldar it was more of a mixed bag; all felt the Summons, >but were not sufficiently drawn by it to commence immigration, doing so >out of love and/or loyalty for others of their kindred who were >completely enraptured by the Summons. > >> And both of those are entirely different that the Avari/Nandor merger >that >> formed the Silvan Elves in the first place. That appeared to be a >full merger >> of the two societies into something new - Silvan. > >I take Silvan to be another word for "woodland"; Silvan elves, of >whatever original tribal affiliations, were defined by their lifestyle. >Of those who shared that lifestyle, at least one (Galadriel) was >Calaquendi but probably so were a few other escapees from Beleriand. >More were Sindar from Doriath, including nearly all of their rulers. >Still more were Nandor from Ossiriand and probably the greatest number, >based upon the allocation of the 144 original Elves, were Avari. > >I presume some inter-marriage among them (although I am curious about >the post-Middle-earth fate of Eldar/Avari miscegenation) but I also >presume that the tribes of Lorien and Mirkwood remained as distinct from >one another, culturally, physically and spiritually as were Galadriel, >Celeborn and Haldir. > >Perhaps in other, more isolated communities whose names aren't >mentioned, the smaller groups were absorbed into the larger without a >trace, like Angles and Saxons in modern Britain. But in the Lorien of >the Galadrim and Mirkwood, where the ruling Sindar probably brought >significant emigrants in their wake, I imagine the relationship to have >been more like that of the Dutch Flemish and French Walloons in Belgium; >very mingled at court, relatively segregated in outlying areas. > I agree with pretty much everything you said except I don't think the Sindarin component was that "significant" The Sindar who migrated east of the Misty's were specifcally said to be Doriath Sindar who basically couldn't stand the Noldor and wanted to get as far away from them as possible (by contrast, the western and northern Sindar had much better experiences with the House of Finarfin). However, there were exceedingly few Doriath Sindar that even survived the First Age. We have the sacking by the dwarves, the sacking by the Feanoreans and then another slaughter of the refugees again by the Feanoreans at the Mouth of Sirion. Then we have to exclude any survivors that took ship at the end of the First Age. In short, I think we're talking about a very few Doriath Sindar who founded Edellhond and moved into the Silvan realms east of the Misty's. My guess is that most of the Sindar who remained in Middle-earth in the Second Age were Sindar originally from northern and western Beleriand who lived under the House of Finarfin - and they stayed in Lindon and Eriador for the most part. Russ ###### Lines: 115 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 03 Oct 2000 18:58:36 GMT References: <8rbcv6$n7i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Message-ID: <20001003145836.23109.00000012@nso-fi.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28132 In article <8rbcv6$n7i$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, tar_elenion@my-deja.com writes: >> >Only the Lindarin elements of the western Avari merged with the >Nandor >> >and the remnants of the Sindar (Q&E 'Clan Names'). >> >The Tatyarin elements tend to be less friendly and even hostile >(Q&E). >> >I think the key is 'elements in the western Avari'. This implies that >> >there are other (non-western Avari) and these were only a portion of >> >the Avari not necesarily a 'great mass' >> >> It implies (and says explicitly) several things. The first clause >you're >> referring to is talking about the Lindarin Avari who migrated to >Beleriand in >> the First Age. It was comparing them to the Tatyaran (Noldorin) >Avari that >> first made it to Beleriand. I agree that the clause you are citing >appears to >> limit the later "merging" Avari to the Lindarin branch. However, the >word >> "elements" is in the phrase talking about the First Age migration, >not the >> Second Age merging. >> > >The first portion 'Lindarin elements of the western Avari' is not >refering to Beleriand it is speaking of them merging in Eriador and the >Vales. We already know that only 'small and secret groups' of Avari >went to Beleriand and only rare individual Avari joined with the Sindar >in Beleriand. I'll double check but that's not how I remember it. The first part (the part with "Lindarin elements" is contrasting their generally good relationship with that of the Tatyarian Avari. It then goes on to explain that this also led to continued good relations between the various Lindarin elves later in the Second Age. >> Even if we limit the Avari element of the Silvans to the Lindarin >branch, we >> are still looking at a *minimum* of 3.5 to 1. After taking into >account the >> near annihiliation of the Laiquendi, the proportion is probably 4 or >5 to 1. >> > >Only if you think that ALL (26) of the Lindarin Avari migrated to >Rhovanion and Eriador. However I do not believe this to be the case. I >cite again the 'Lindarin elements of the western Avari'. This implies >that there are other non-western Avari and the Lindar are only a >portion in the western Avari. >> One thing we're all forgetting however, at least in terms of the >Third Age, is >> that much of the Avari were killed in the mid-Second Age during the >War of the >> Elves and Sauron. We all often assume that Greenwood and Lorien were >the only >> Silvan (or otherwise non-Eldarin) realms, but that is not the case. >There were >> non-Eldarin Elves throughout Eriador and the Vale of Anduin in the >First and >> Second Ages > >Hey, I was not forgetting, I've provded cites pointing that out.;) OK, I'll exclude you from the forgetters! >but Sauron's scorch and burn war did a pretty good job of wiping >> out those populations - Greenwood and Lorien were the exceptions. >> >> But the merging of Avari and Nandor was occuring long before the >Sindarin >> refugees arrived on the scene. There was already an existing merged >Silvan >> culture that Amdir and Oropher found when they migrated east. >> > >"The Silvan Elves hid themselves... and became a small and scattered >people, hardly to be distinguished from the Avari... under the >leadership of these [Sinda lords] they became again an ordered folk..." >(UT, Hist. of G&C, Appendix A). As I've been arguing, there are problems with that entire essay and related UT texts from a "canon" point of view, not the least of which is that they contradict the definition of "Eldar" in LOTR. They also contradict Letter 176 which confirms the LOTR definition. And they contradict late writings such as Quendi and Eldar, which place Avari in the woodland realms. >> One problem we have is that the only Silvans we actually meet in LOTR >are >> clearly, as you point out, those of Greenwood and Lorien who are >products of >> the Sindar/Nandor/Lindarin Avari merging. But as I argue above, this >is only a >> remnant of greater Avari or Avari-influenced societies that existed >before the >> War of the Elves and Sauron. So this point occurred to me as I'm >writing this: >> clearly the wood-elves of Lorien and Greenwood are Silvan, but they >are not >> necessarily the only sort of elf that could be called Silvan. > >:( You've lost me here. I am not seeing what this has to do with the >discussion, clarify please. Or is this leading to another tangent? I'm opining that the Lindarin Avari/Nandor merger might not have been the only Sindar. Tatyaran Avari could also have been Silvan or there could be mixed Lindar/Tatyar Avari communities with andy Nandor that sill come under the Silvan rubric. However, by the end of the Third Age, the only surviving Silvan communities appear to be those headed by Eldar in Greenwood and Lorien. Russ ###### Lines: 26 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 03 Oct 2000 23:06:47 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Message-ID: <20001003190647.11361.00000040@nso-md.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28131 In article , "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: >> Not really separate Halls. > >Right... there are indications of separate Halls for Men and >Dwarves, but the text we both recall says; > >"Concerning the fate of other elves, especially of the Dark-elves >who refused the summons to Aman, the Eldar know little. The Re- >born report that in Mandos there are many elves, and among them >many of the Alamanyar, but that there is in the Halls of Waiting >little mingling or communing of kind with kind, or indeed of any >one fea with another. For the houseless fea is solitary by nature, >and turns only towards those with whom, maybe, it formed strong >bonds of love in life." >MR, Laws and Customs - Of Rebirth > >However, 'Alamanyar' is a term for all the Moriquendi EXCEPT the >Avari. As such, this passage does not necessarily tell us anything >about their fate after all. > Good point! Russ ###### From: cbstewart@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Whither the Avari? Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 02:13:46 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <8rjcgm$8kq$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: cstewart@chcf.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.88.66.141 To: colin@anet.net X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Oct 06 02:13:46 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x57.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 199.88.66.141 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDcbstewart Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:28148 In article , "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: > wrote in message > news:8quesp$6fp$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > 1. By the 4th Age, did Avari have the right to sail to Aman? (Snip responses to the other seven questions) Thank you for addressing all of the questions I asked in the original post, many of which have been on my mind for decades. Such comprehensive and focused responsiveness is more than rare; it's downright unique. And much appreciated! Charles B. Stewart cstewart@chcf.org Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.