From: "vvor" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <1wwA5.195$RX2.5970@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <20000928123430.28167.00000016@ng-mg1.news.gateway.net> Subject: Gandalf's Spellbook/ was: Re: The Bridge of Khazad-Dum Lines: 79 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:50:41 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.193.177.92 X-Complaints-To: news@globix.net X-Trace: news.nyc.globix.net 970159767 208.193.177.92 (Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:49:27 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 12:49:27 EDT Organization: Globix Corp. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.nyc.globix.net!news.nyc.globix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27758 "Mnkohrz" wrote in message news:20000928123430.28167.00000016@ng-mg1.news.gateway.net... > >Subject: Re: The Bridge of Khazad-Dum > >From: "voravor" voravor@subdimension.com > >Date: 9/27/00 7:44 PM Central Daylight Time > >Message-id: <1wwA5.195$RX2.5970@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net> > > > > > >First of all, their primary responsibility was the Ringbearer. Second, the > Bridge was single file only, so what could they hope to accomplish? It's not > like Corwin and Bleys fencing their way up to Castle Amber one enemy at a time. > > Hey! Another Zelazny fan! And I thought I was the only one :) No way! I am a HUGE Zelazny fan. Corwin is alive!What if it's been a shadow of Corwin all along? > > There was nothing to hold on to. And, Gandalf commanded them to "fly". > >Obviously, he intended to unleash some of the Secret Fire or something and had > no time to explain. > > I've always interpreted "servant of the Secret Fire" as a reference to > Iluvatar, the wielder of the Imperishable Flame. > Me, too. It is kind of an ideological reference, isn't it? Kind of like saying, "i'm an American!" in a crowded room of mean foreign prison guards. > >How (physically, not ethically) could Aragorn and Boromir stand together and > >help Gandalf? > > > >vora > > Other interesting questions: How could Aragorn and Boromir see well enough > to run back to the stairs? ("The fires went out and blank darkness fell") If > the bridge was so narrow and dangerous, then it was a miracle that they didn't > fall in after all. Why didn't Legolas use his bow to put a few arrows in the > Balrog before it jumped on the Bridge? (It probably wouldn't have killed it, > of course, but it might have served as something of a distraction.) I never thought of that. Did the fires go out in the Hall, or just the fires that were wound around the Balrog? They threw down a big slab 'o stone and that spread the fire out. The Balrog rushed over the gangway and the fire seemed to rush up around it/him/her. When Gandalf issued his challenge, the fires went out. I think this was a Spell, actually. A spell of challenge. People say that Gandalf only knew spells of ventriloquoy and opening/locking doors, but in fact, he cast many, many spells in TH/LotR. Many of them are not "spells" in the classic, cantrip sense, but rather issuances of "forces" or "cohersions" or "compulsions". For example, when he is patrolling the battlements at Minas Tirith, he was able to lift the morale and dispel the per capita despair of the draftees. Has anyone done a serious cataloging of Gandalf's magic? vora > > Mnkohrz > Mnkohrz - "The true mystery of human nature is how we can demand that others > respect us for who we are while simultaneously expecting them to conform to our > own standards." ###### Lines: 45 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mnkohrz@gateway.net (Mnkohrz) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 29 Sep 2000 18:38:14 GMT References: Organization: http://www.compuserve.com Subject: Re: Gandalf's Spellbook/ was: Re: The Bridge of Khazad-Dum Message-ID: <20000929143814.10479.00000278@ng-cb1.news.gateway.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27794 >Subject: Re: Gandalf's Spellbook/ was: Re: The Bridge of Khazad-Dum >From: "Jim" james.dale2@ntlworld.com >Date: 9/29/00 8:58 PM Central Daylight Time [snip] A good list, but... >Fireworks - probably magical rather than gunpoweder based (long expected party). Why? Recall that the orcs had a "blasting fire" at Helm's Deep. It's unlikely that Saruman would bother teaching orcs a few minor spells, so it had to be gunpowder or some explosive variant. Why should Gandalf resort to magic when there is a suitable substitute available to him. It's not as though he needed to use the fireworks as a weapon. >Kill fire - vs the Balrog Read the text! The fires in the chasm went out * after * the Balrog and Gandalf fell into the abyss. My hunch is that the fire had been kindled by the Balrog through the use of sorcery and disappeared when his spell was broken along with his concentration. >Drop weapon spell - In The White Rider when Gandalf meets the 3 hunters.....Gimli and Legolas drop thier weapons from a spell...its interesting that either Anduril or Aragorn resisted dropping. Actually Gimli's ax was seemingly yanked right out of his hands by an invisible force. Anduril either blazed with fire or else appeared to and Legolas loosed an arrow which which was instantly destroyed in a flash of flame. That's 3 spells at once - an interesting glimpse of how much more powerful Gandalf the White was than Gandalf the Grey. >Aura of Fear - scaring the orcs at Helm's Deep. Gandalf denied that he used any wizardry at Helm's Deep. The implication is that the orcs were terrified by the unexpected appearance of the Ents (or Huorns) and the Westfold reinforcements, plus, of course, Gandalf doubtless could be a fearsome spectacle wielding Glamdring atop Shadowfax. Mnkohrz - "The true mystery of human nature is how we can demand that others respect us for who we are while simultaneously expecting them to conform to our own standards." ###### Lines: 5 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: gaiusmax@aol.com (GaiusMax) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 29 Sep 2000 19:46:44 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Gandalf's Spellbook/ was: Re: The Bridge of Khazad-Dum Message-ID: <20000929154644.01347.00000423@ng-md1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!small.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27739 >Fear of Fire - this sounds like a spell...he used it on gollum to get >information from him (shadow of the past). It seems more likely to me that he threatened him with physical fire. We see elsewhere that this is not exactly one of Gollum's favorite things. ###### From: "Jim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <1wwA5.195$RX2.5970@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <20000928123430.28167.00000016@ng-mg1.news.gateway.net> Subject: Re: Gandalf's Spellbook/ was: Re: The Bridge of Khazad-Dum Lines: 90 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:58:41 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.104.137.177 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 970250058 213.104.137.177 (Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:54:18 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 18:54:18 BST Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27705 vvor wrote in message news:rEKA5.5$aB4.1015@news.nyc.globix.net... > I never thought of that. Did the fires go out in the Hall, or just the fires > that were wound around the Balrog? They threw down a big slab 'o stone and > that spread the fire out. The Balrog rushed over the gangway and the fire > seemed to rush up around it/him/her. When Gandalf issued his challenge, the > fires went out. > I think this was a Spell, actually. A spell of challenge. Possibly a power of Narya the ring of fire which he wielded. >People say that > Gandalf only knew spells of ventriloquoy and opening/locking doors, but in > fact, he cast many, many spells in TH/LotR. Many of them are not "spells" in > the classic, cantrip sense, but rather issuances of "forces" or "cohersions" > or "compulsions". For example, when he is patrolling the battlements at > Minas Tirith, he was able to lift the morale and dispel the per capita > despair of the draftees. I would again put that down to narya to some extent, which helped him kindle the flame of hope in the hearts of men. It could also be part of his powers as a Maia. > Has anyone done a serious cataloging of Gandalf's magic? Not to my knowledge, but these are ones I can remember: IIRC he put a mark on Bilbo's door, which he later removed...possibly 'magical'. Smoke ring spells - changing thier colour and influencing thier movement. Ventiloquism and impersonating (saving the party from the trolls in TH). Fatal flash - killing goblins at the 'front door' in TH. (this flash was probably the lightning bolts he uses later) Voice of command - I don't think he was merely shouting when he called the attention of everyon in the battle of five armies. Fireworks - probably magical rather than gunpoweder based (long expected party). Non-Lethal flash - used when bilbo puts on the ring at his party. Fear of Fire - this sounds like a spell...he used it on gollum to get information from him (shadow of the past). Lightning bolt - used in his battle with the Ringwraiths on Weathertop (A knife in the dark IIRC) White horses spell - at the Ford of Bruinen to scare (or harm) the ringwraiths even more (flight to the ford / many meetings). Kindle Fire spell - making a fire upon Caradhras (Ring goes South) Kindle Fire level 2 (hehe) - Making all the trees burst into flame when attacked by wolves (Ring goes South). Various failed open door spells at moria gate. Create light - used at a couple of potencies in Moria. Lock door spell - Closing the back door of the Chamber of Mazarbul Word of command - appears to move objects without physical interaction (Mazarbul door again). Incidentally the Witch King uses a word of command in the siege of gondor...perhaps this spell is related to rings of power, although general sorcery is possible as the witch king is said to be one. Kill fire - vs the Balrog Voice of command - telling the Balrog 'you cannot pass' (its perhaps notable that the Balrog does not manage to pass Gandalf) More lightning in the battle of the peak with the Balrog. Some kind of spell when Frodo was on Amon Hen - possibly related to rings of power. Drop weapon spell - In The White Rider when Gandalf meets the 3 hunters.....Gimli and Legolas drop thier weapons from a spell...its interesting that either Anduril or Aragorn resisted dropping. Kindle hope spell - Best example is the healing of Theoden...this appears to be more potent than merely giving him hope though. Aura of Fear - scaring the orcs at Helm's Deep. Voice of command - used on Saruman to call him back and break his staff. Read mind - detecting if Pipin is lying after using the palantir. Lightning bolts and aura of fear - Saving Faramir from the Ringwraiths. Kindle hope - cheering up the men of Minas Tirith. Voice of Command - Telling the Witch King 'you cannot pass' again, the recipient fails to pass. Sight beyond Sight - He sees what has happened to the Witch king from the walls of Minas Tirith. And again before the black gate seeing that the ring is about to be destroyed. Voice of Command - in the battle before the Black Gate, he stops everyone to wait for the Earthquake that signals the rings destruction. Quite a lot of stuff really. I might make a web page with them all, and supporting quotes if there is interest. Jim D ###### From: "Jim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000929143814.10479.00000278@ng-cb1.news.gateway.net> Subject: Re: Gandalf's Spellbook/ was: Re: The Bridge of Khazad-Dum Lines: 148 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: <1z6B5.1402$uq5.26008@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com> Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:06:28 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.104.140.229 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 970257725 213.104.140.229 (Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:02:05 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:02:05 BST Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27704 Mnkohrz wrote in message news:20000929143814.10479.00000278@ng-cb1.news.gateway.net... > A good list, but... Thanks. >Fireworks - probably magical rather than gunpoweder based (long expected > party). > > Why? Recall that the orcs had a "blasting fire" at Helm's Deep. It's > unlikely that Saruman would bother teaching orcs a few minor spells, so it had > to be gunpowder or some explosive variant. Why should Gandalf resort to magic > when there is a suitable substitute available to him. It's not as though he > needed to use the fireworks as a weapon. The blasting fire is referred to as a "devilry of Saruman". "'But the Orcs have brought a devilry from Orthanc,' said Aragorn. 'They have a blasting fire, and with it they took the Wall. If they cannot come in the caves, they may seal up those that are inside. But now we must turn all our thoughts to our own defence.'" (Helms Deep, TT) I took this to mean that it was an invention by Saruman related to his machines and industralisation (kinda thing) and that he probably kept it secret from Gandalf. This, I admit is my own speculation about Sarumans character, I could be wrong and Gandalfs fireworks could have used gunpowder. I had not forgotten about it when I claimed fireworks as magical. > >Kill fire - vs the Balrog > > Read the text! The fires in the chasm went out * after * the Balrog and > Gandalf fell into the abyss. My hunch is that the fire had been kindled by the > Balrog through the use of sorcery and disappeared when his spell was broken > along with his concentration. Which text ought I to read? I was refering to the LOTR : "`You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. `I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.' The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. " (The Bridge of Khazad-Dum, FotR) I was refering to the fire in the Balrog, which Gandalf appears to quench by saying 'The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn' You do make a good point about the Balrogs possible power over fire outside of himself, this could be used in a list of other creatures spells :) > >Drop weapon spell - In The White Rider when Gandalf meets the 3 > hunters.....Gimli and Legolas drop thier weapons from a spell...its interesting > that either Anduril or Aragorn resisted dropping. > > Actually Gimli's ax was seemingly yanked right out of his hands by an > invisible force. Anduril either blazed with fire or else appeared to and > Legolas loosed an arrow which which was instantly destroyed in a flash of > flame. That's 3 spells at once - an interesting glimpse of how much more > powerful Gandalf the White was than Gandalf the Grey. Yes, interesting scene which I could have done with re-reading before making the list. I thought Legolas had dropped his bow rather than merley lost control of it, missed, and the arrow got destroyed. What I was remembering was him dropping it before picking it back up again (see quotes) There also seems to be a spell that stopped them from acting used just prior to this...I'll call this Freeze Foes :) Here is the passage : "'Now!' said Gimli. 'Stop him, Legolas!' 'Did I not say that I wished to speak to you?' said the old man. 'Put away that bow, Master Elf!' The bow and arrow fell from Legolas' hands, and his arms hung loose at his sides." .... "The old man turned away and went towards a heap of fallen stones and rock at the foot of the cliff behind. Immediately, as if a spell had been removed, the others relaxed and stirred. Gimli's hand went at once to his axe-haft. Aragorn drew his sword. Legolas picked up his bow. The old man took no notice, but stooped and sat himself on a low flat stone. Then his grey cloak drew apart, and they saw, beyond doubt, that he was clothed beneath all in white. 'Saruman!' cried Gimli, springing towards him with axe in hand. 'speak! Tell us where you have hidden our friends! What have you done with them? Speak, or I will make a dint in your hat that even a wizard will find it hard to deal with!' The old man was too quick for him. He sprang to his feet and leaped to the top of a large rock. There he stood, grown suddenly tall, towering above them. His hood and his grey rags were flung away. His white garments shone. He lifted up his staff, and Gimli's axe leaped from his grasp and fell ringing on the ground. The sword of Aragorn, stiff in his motionless hand, blazed with a sudden fire. Legolas gave a great shout and shot an arrow high into the air: it vanished in a flash of flame." (The White Rider, TT) > >Aura of Fear - scaring the orcs at Helm's Deep. > > Gandalf denied that he used any wizardry at Helm's Deep. The implication > is that the orcs were terrified by the unexpected appearance of the Ents (or > Huorns) and the Westfold reinforcements, plus, of course, Gandalf doubtless > could be a fearsome spectacle wielding Glamdring atop Shadowfax. No, he does not deny that he used *any* just that he hadn't proved himself to be *mighty* at it. "'But you did not name the hour, nor foretell the manner of your coming. Strange help you bring. You are mighty in wizardry, Gandalf the White!' 'That may be. But if so, I have not shown it yet. I have but given good counsel in peril, and made use of the speed of Shadowfax. Your own valour has done more, and the stout legs of the Westfold-men marching through the night.'" (The Road to Isengard, TT) Also it seems clear to me that the Orcs were terrified of Gandalf especially as well as Huorns and Rohirrim: "The hosts of Isengard roared, swaying this way and that, turning from fear to fear. Again the horn sounded from the tower. Down through the breach of the Dike charged the king's company. Down from the hills leaped Erkenbrand, lord of Westfold. Down leaped Shadowfax, like a deer that runs surefooted in the mountains. The White Rider was upon them, and the terror of his coming filled the enemy with madness. The wild men fell on their faces before him. The Orcs reeled and screamed and cast aside both sword and spear. Like a black smoke driven by a mounting wind they fled. Wailing they passed under the waiting shadow of the trees; and from that shadow none ever came again." If they ran into the trees they must have been more scared of the other two factors....and orcs aren't usually especially scared of men. I imagine Gandalf (mainly the White) has a similar yet much stronger ability to induce terror in enemies like the Black Riders. Jim D ###### From: "Jim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000929154644.01347.00000423@ng-md1.aol.com> Subject: Re: Gandalf's Spellbook/ was: Re: The Bridge of Khazad-Dum Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:17:19 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.104.140.229 X-Complaints-To: abuse@ntlworld.com X-Trace: news6-win.server.ntlworld.com 970258385 213.104.140.229 (Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:13:05 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 21:13:05 BST Organization: ntlworld News Service Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!psiuk-p4!uknet!news.gradwell.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!news5-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!news6-win.server.ntlworld.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27706 GaiusMax wrote in message news:20000929154644.01347.00000423@ng-md1.aol.com... > >Fear of Fire - this sounds like a spell...he used it on gollum to get > >information from him (shadow of the past). > > It seems more likely to me that he threatened him with physical fire. We see > elsewhere that this is not exactly one of Gollum's favorite things. In 'Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit' Gollum objects to the fire on the grounds that it will bring enemies...although he does call it 'the nasty red tongues' It's possible that Gandalf held him above a fire to get information, but it seems rather un-Gandalf like to me...I prefer to imagine a spell. Jim D