From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Killing an Ainu (Re: Reincarnation of elves II) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:10:54 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <1%Rz5.4276$s76.325265@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.7e.d9 X-Server-Date: 26 Sep 2000 20:10:30 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net.MISMATCH!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27673 We've wandered rather far from the original topic, so in taking yet another turn I've altered the subject line. Conrad Dunkerson wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Frequent issue: define "kill". > >Whenever this sort of thing comes up there is alot of confusion on >intents. I don't think Melkor's spirit COULD be 'killed' - in the >sense of utterly and permanently destroyed. agree this is a very thorny issue. Even without worrying about Melkor, what happened when Saruman was stabbed to death? "To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing." I've always interpreted that as visible sign that his spirit had ceased to exist, but then I also think JRRT intended his pure spirits to be immortal, whatever might happen to their bodies. Can we reconcile these two viewpoints, or does Tolkien tell us elsewhere just what did happen to Saruman's spirit -- and Sauron's too, for that matter? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <1%Rz5.4276$s76.325265@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Killing an Ainu (Re: Reincarnation of elves II) Lines: 39 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:57:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.50 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: news.bahnhof.se 970005454 195.178.166.50 (Tue, 26 Sep 2000 23:57:34 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 23:57:34 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!londen1-snf1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!news.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27642 Stan Brown wrote: > from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For > a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a > cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into > nothing." > I've always interpreted that as visible sign that his spirit had > ceased to exist, but then I also think JRRT intended his pure > spirits to be immortal, whatever might happen to their bodies. Well, the part regarding Saruman - I've always interpreted that as that he was denied going back to Valinor. He was made an exile if you will because of his abandoning the quest he was sent out to fullfill. It's described much the same way of Sauron's spirit - a wind that ripped a cloud apart. > Can we reconcile these two viewpoints, or does Tolkien tell us > elsewhere just what did happen to Saruman's spirit -- and Sauron's > too, for that matter? The way I figured it works is that Sauron and Saruman weren't killed. They were made powerless and unable to make new bodies for themselves. Their spirits were in other words immortal but almost all of their powers were used up. And I suspect that the same thing would have happened to Gandalf hadn't Eru intervened. They are still here but unable to cause mischief. I don't have my copy of Silmarillion anywhere near but if I recall correctly, all the Ainur that entered Ea were bound to it until the end of Ea. The only way to really kill Sauron, Manwe, Melkor, Olorin or anyone of the Ainur would then be to destroy Ea. A rather drastic solution.... /Jonas ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <1%Rz5.4276$s76.325265@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Killing an Ainu (Re: Reincarnation of elves II) Lines: 39 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:52:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.27.177 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 970008725 12.79.27.177 (Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:52:05 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:52:05 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.19!wnmasters2!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27641 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.143accddbc06107998b81b@news.mindspring.com... > Can we reconcile these two viewpoints, or does Tolkien tell us > elsewhere just what did happen to Saruman's spirit -- and > Sauron's too, for that matter? "If it [the Ring] is destroyed, then he [Sauron] will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape." Gandalf, RotK - The Last Debate "It [Sauron's body] was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil Sauron took a long while to re-build... The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book." Letters #200 "That Sauron was not himself destroyed in the anger of the One is not my fault: the problem of evil, and its apparent toleration, is a permanent one for all who concern themselves with our world. The indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them, is also an inevitable feature, if one either believes in their existence, or feigns it in a story." Letters #211 Saruman isn't as clear cut, but given the above I'd suggest that he suffered a similar fate... diminished to the point of impotence. ###### From: "voravor" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <1%Rz5.4276$s76.325265@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Killing an Ainu (Re: Reincarnation of elves II) Lines: 20 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 22:57:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.168.44.120 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 970009053 24.168.44.120 (Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:57:33 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 15:57:33 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27631 "Jonas Thorell" wrote in message news:iZ8A5.110$En6.101131@news.bahnhof.se... > Stan Brown wrote: > > Well, the part regarding Saruman - I've always interpreted that as > that he was denied going back to Valinor. He was made an exile > if you will because of his abandoning the quest he was sent > out to fullfill. > not even a place in the halls of Mandos? even morgoth got room and board. > > /Jonas > > > ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Killing an Ainu (Re: Reincarnation of elves II) Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 21:04:19 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <1%Rz5.4276$s76.325265@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.24 X-Server-Date: 27 Sep 2000 01:04:34 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.online.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!novia!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27671 I like both Jonas' and Conrad's answers. Conrad's quotes from /Letters/ seem conclusive to me: Sauron and Saruman could not have been "killed" in spirit. I like Jonas' analysis of the "Saruman-mist" it was blows away (from the West) because his spirit was denied any return to Valinor. In among the frequent flamage and silliness of this group, answers like Jonas' and Conrad's are what keep me coming back. (Not to slight other people who post thoughtful answers on various topics; it's just that those two are the most immediate.) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: LESDL Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Killing an Ainu (Re: Reincarnation of elves II) Organization: Tertiary Adjunct Of Unimatrix Zero One Message-ID: References: <8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <1%Rz5.4276$s76.325265@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 67 Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 09:09:33 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.58.158.13 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shore.net X-Trace: news.shore.net 970059595 209.58.158.13 (Wed, 27 Sep 2000 08:59:55 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 08:59:55 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.shore.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27669 On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 16:10:54 -0400, brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) squinted and tapped out: snip > >Even without worrying about Melkor, what happened when Saruman was >stabbed to death? > >"To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a >grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke >from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For >a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a >cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into >nothing." With the ongoing thread about the battle at Orodruin and the ring being cut off of Sauron's hand, I've been wondering if Sauron's body underwent that change above, as well as the change described in the paragraph immediately following the one above: "Frodo looked down at the body with pity and horror, for as he looked it seemed that long years of death were suddenly revealed in it, and it shrank, and the shrivelled face became rags of skin upon a hideous skull. Lifting up the skirt of the dirty cloak that sprawled beside it, he covered it over, and turned away." Did the ring's existence change that for Sauron in some way? Wouldn't you think that if either or both had happened, someone would have taken note of it, or mentioned it at one point? Maybe Tolkien wanted to save that for the end, dramatic effect if you would, in both cases. Jonas writes: > >The way I figured it works is that Sauron and Saruman weren't >killed. They were made powerless and unable to make new >bodies for themselves. Their spirits were in other words immortal >but almost all of their powers were used up. And I suspect that >the same thing would have happened to Gandalf hadn't Eru >intervened. They are still here but unable to cause mischief. I think that in Sauron's case, this is especially true. This was the third time his corporeal form had been "killed", this time the essence of the ring being taken from him whereas before it held some of his power and made it easier for him to return and gain power. In Saruman's case, I think the factor that makes his return to form unlikely is the fact that there was no ring, no essence to hold part of his spirit's power. Otherwise, this was only the first time his form would have been "killed", not the third time as was the case with Sauron. Sauron had also been in the "world" for far longer than any other Maian entity, the Istari only having been sent about a thousand years prior. Maybe Sauron's long ties to the world itself, as opposed to being outside of it but still in Ea, made it easier for him to return to it, over and above the ring's existence playing a part. -- LESDL 74" Asshole(tm) 24 lb BS SENS http://eddiekieger.com ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <1%Rz5.4276$s76.325265@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Killing an Ainu (Re: Reincarnation of elves II) Lines: 48 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:29:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.167.79 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: news.bahnhof.se 970064983 195.178.167.79 (Wed, 27 Sep 2000 16:29:43 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 16:29:43 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!bignews.mediaways.net!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!news.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27649 LESDL wrote: > With the ongoing thread about the battle at Orodruin and the ring > being cut off of Sauron's hand, I've been wondering if Sauron's body > underwent that change above, as well as the change described in the > paragraph immediately following the one above: > "Frodo looked down at the body with pity and horror, for as he looked > it seemed that long years of death were suddenly revealed in it, and > it shrank, and the shrivelled face became rags of skin upon a hideous > skull. Lifting up the skirt of the dirty cloak that sprawled beside > it, he covered it over, and turned away." > Did the ring's existence change that for Sauron in some way? I would venture a guess and say that that thing would only happen at the "death" of an Istar. Sauron had full access to his maia-powers, the Istari hadn't. They were more like men than Sauron. "For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die; and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years". As far as I can see that does not apply to Sauron. > I think that in Sauron's case, this is especially true. This was the > third time his corporeal form had been "killed", this time the essence > of the ring being taken from him whereas before it held some of his > power and made it easier for him to return and gain power. Ah, everyone that's read the X-men knows Sauron is still around...;) > In Saruman's case, I think the factor that makes his return to form > unlikely is the fact that there was no ring, no essence to hold part > of his spirit's power. Otherwise, this was only the first time his > form would have been "killed", not the third time as was the case with > Sauron. I think it's more likely that the fact that Saruman was an Istar plays a larger role in that. The Istari were intentionally weakened before being sent out as emissaries after all. /Jonas From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <1%Rz5.4276$s76.325265@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Killing an Ainu (Re: Reincarnation of elves II) Lines: 48 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 14:29:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.167.79 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: news.bahnhof.se 970064983 195.178.167.79 (Wed, 27 Sep 2000 16:29:43 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 16:29:43 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!bignews.mediaways.net!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!news.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27649 LESDL wrote: > With the ongoing thread about the battle at Orodruin and the ring > being cut off of Sauron's hand, I've been wondering if Sauron's body > underwent that change above, as well as the change described in the > paragraph immediately following the one above: > "Frodo looked down at the body with pity and horror, for as he looked > it seemed that long years of death were suddenly revealed in it, and > it shrank, and the shrivelled face became rags of skin upon a hideous > skull. Lifting up the skirt of the dirty cloak that sprawled beside > it, he covered it over, and turned away." > Did the ring's existence change that for Sauron in some way? I would venture a guess and say that that thing would only happen at the "death" of an Istar. Sauron had full access to his maia-powers, the Istari hadn't. They were more like men than Sauron. "For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die; and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years". As far as I can see that does not apply to Sauron. > I think that in Sauron's case, this is especially true. This was the > third time his corporeal form had been "killed", this time the essence > of the ring being taken from him whereas before it held some of his > power and made it easier for him to return and gain power. Ah, everyone that's read the X-men knows Sauron is still around...;) > In Saruman's case, I think the factor that makes his return to form > unlikely is the fact that there was no ring, no essence to hold part > of his spirit's power. Otherwise, this was only the first time his > form would have been "killed", not the third time as was the case with > Sauron. I think it's more likely that the fact that Saruman was an Istar plays a larger role in that. The Istari were intentionally weakened before being sent out as emissaries after all. /Jonas