From: "Morgil" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Reincarnation of elves II Lines: 39 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 14:04:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.197.13.215 X-Trace: read2.inet.fi 969285860 194.197.13.215 (Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:04:20 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 17:04:20 EET DST Organization: Sonera corp Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!nntp.inet.fi!central.inet.fi!inet.fi!read2.inet.fi.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27385 Last time we somewhat came to conclusion that Eru gave instructions of reincarnation to Valar, after the first deaths occurred in Valinor. It remained unclear, what was the faith of those Elves, who never came to Valinor, when they died. On one hand, they had immortal souls like all Elves, but on the other hand, there is no mention of them reincarnating at least into Valinor. IMO itīs possible that they were located in some far corner of Aman, where they could live their life in their own way. Also it was agreed that Elves did in deed *reincarnate* as they were before death, and they were not *reborn* as childs. They had the same shape and same memories and feelings as before. In this case... Part Three (8) Was the number of Elves somehow limited? Did the Elves in Aman at some point cease giving birth?(If not, it was bound to be crowded...) (9) Were there any cases of couples rejoining after one or both had died and then returned? How about Thingol and Melian? Elenwe and Turgon? Finrod and Amarie? Part four (10) How were the Noldor located in Aman after 1st age? Did those who returned from exile ever meet their reincarnated relatives? (11) How long did it take for kinslayed Teleri to reincarnate? Did it happen before or after the War of the Wrath? I wonder if there was some kind of restriction for Elves killed by other Elves to reincarnate before the diffrences that got them killed were settled. (12) If an Elf commited a suicide, would he/she be allowed to reincarnate? (For exemple a prisoner of Morgoth, to escape torture.) Morgil ###### From: jabbakie@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of elves II Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 08:15:36 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 85 Message-ID: <8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.230.233.1 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Sep 20 08:15:36 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 LS, 1.0 main.datagroup.ro:1080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE4), 1.0 x64.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 10.0.1.2, 193.230.233.1 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDjabbakie Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!feeder.qis.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27445 In article , "Morgil" wrote: The following are of course my opinions based on my personal impressions after I finished reading as much Tolkien literature as I could get.I also deny the conclusion with total reincarnation of Elves so be advised! > Part Three > (8) Was the number of Elves somehow limited? No, it was not limited in anyway.I have found no reference to such thing.On the other hand , strange enough,(and here I expect to be contradicted) I could not find many references to Elvish race kids or teenagers - how they play or what their education was -how did they learn to fight, to behave "now eat like an elf,my dear boy, and not like an orc, please stay with your back straight" :-) and the culture of their peoples.They only appear as young people (in the Silm)and world-worn old-minded young-at-body mature people in the LOTR >Did the Elves in Aman > at some point cease giving birth?(If not, it was bound to be crowded...) There might be a posibility for this thing to be true:remember how Feanor's mother declare that the strength that could have nourished many other kids was all gone in this single one (=Feanor) - so there may be something like a life force that the older ones shared to youngsters and sonon until the younger generations will have to choose between not gaving birth anymore - or to conceive kids that may be "decayed" in mind terms if not in body terms. > > (9) Were there any cases of couples rejoining after one or both had died > and then returned? How about Thingol and Melian? Elenwe and Turgon? > Finrod and Amarie? I remained firmly in my belief that the reincarnation was an exception for exceptional individuals rather then a rule but I will not start the debate over again.Of course no one will answer this question because there are no Tolkien references on the matter - I could not find any one.My personal assumption is that they never met again - that wil be in the sadness spirit that appear in the books when talking about the halls of Mandos.Even souls in these halls my not met each others, rather deeming alone in grief and regrets - or in peace.Please avoid the trap of falling in a parallelism with the Christian after death notions - in the Christian dogme the souls do met and recognize each other after death. > > Part four > (10) How were the Noldor located in Aman after 1st age? Most of them in hospitals and mental sanatoriums :-).They were on the front line for some good hundreds of years :-). Again I could find no reference on that.My assumption is that they dissipated themselves (themselves -got it?) amongst the other for curative\reunion\enforcing of relationships purposes >Did those who > returned from exile ever meet their reincarnated relatives? > > (11) How long did it take for kinslayed Teleri to reincarnate? Did it happen > before or after the War of the Wrath? They didn't were reincarnated.The sin of the Noldor would have been quite reduced as importance then - something like an Irish broking the front two teeth of his cousin for not leting him have the boat one day and next day settling all together at the pub with a mug of beer. > I wonder if there was some kind of restriction for Elves killed by other > Elves to reincarnate before the diffrences that got them killed were > settled. Again I stick with my theory. > > (12) If an Elf commited a suicide, would he/she be allowed to reincarnate? > (For exemple a prisoner of Morgoth, to escape torture.) Definitely no.If an Elf would have had the certitude of reincarnating, their way of life would have been very different - think abot how the Indian life philosophy differs from the Western Christian one.But again I will rather not start that debate . Best regards, Jabbakie. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of elves II Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 22:42:45 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 55 Message-ID: <8qb42j$ai2$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-a034.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 969479059 10818 212.205.240.34 (20 Sep 2000 19:44:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 20 Sep 2000 19:44:19 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27479 wrote in message news:8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article , > "Morgil" wrote: > The following are of course my opinions based on my personal > impressions after I finished reading as much Tolkien literature as I > could get. I also deny the conclusion with total reincarnation of Elves > so be advised! > > > Part Three > > (8) Was the number of Elves somehow limited? > No, it was not limited in anyway.I have found no reference to such > thing.On the other hand , strange enough,(and here I expect to be > contradicted) I could not find many references to Elvish race kids or > teenagers - how they play or what their education was -how did they > learn to fight, to behave "now eat like an elf,my dear boy, and not > like an orc, please stay with your back straight" :-) and the culture > of their peoples. There are many references in "Morgoth's Ring" to how they grow, etc. > > (9) Were there any cases of couples rejoining after one or both had > died > > and then returned? How about Thingol and Melian? Elenwe and Turgon? > > Finrod and Amarie? > I remained firmly in my belief that the reincarnation was an > exception for exceptional individuals rather then a rule but I will not > start the debate over again.Of course no one will answer this question > because there are no Tolkien references on the matter - I could not > find any one.My personal assumption is that they never met again - that > wil be in the sadness spirit that appear in the books when talking > about the halls of Mandos. If dead elves never met again then how the hell is the separation of Luthien and her parents any more sad than any other separation of dead elves? Your theory makes the whole of Luthien's story meaningless. > >Did those who > > returned from exile ever meet their reincarnated relatives? > > > > (11) How long did it take for kinslayed Teleri to reincarnate? Did it > happen > > before or after the War of the Wrath? > They didn't were reincarnated.The sin of the Noldor would have been > quite reduced as importance then - something like an Irish broking the > front two teeth of his cousin for not leting him have the boat one day > and next day settling all together at the pub with a mug of beer. Death, pain, anguish, violence is by itself villainous and significant. Else we wouldn't consider rape to be a crime, since the victim isn't disembodied for all time. Aris Katsaris ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of elves II Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 21:49:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.25.246 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 969745750 12.79.25.246 (Sat, 23 Sep 2000 21:49:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 21:49:10 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.19!wnmasters2!bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27541 wrote in message news:8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > I remained firmly in my belief that the reincarnation was an > exception for exceptional individuals rather then a rule but I > will not start the debate over again. As has been noted previously, there are direct statements by Tolkien indicating that the Elves in general WOULD be re-embodied. It is certainly possible that he could have changed his mind about this decision, but I'm not aware of any evidence that he did. >> (12) If an Elf commited a suicide, would he/she be allowed to >> reincarnate? > Definitely no. We have very few examples of suicides in Tolkien's stories. The most notable is Turin (a human) who, in a rather remarkable coincidence, does in fact reincarnate according to various texts. Given that a human suicide was accorded exceptional honor (even being elevated to 'godhood' in some versions) I'd suspect that Tolkien would not have considered it an automatic disqualification for re-embodiment / inherently evil. ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of elves II Lines: 77 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 12:03:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.62.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.mi.home.com 969797007 24.0.62.34 (Sun, 24 Sep 2000 05:03:27 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 05:03:27 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.mi.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27557 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:qz9z5.4362$tl2.330031@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > wrote in message > news:8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > I remained firmly in my belief that the reincarnation was an > > exception for exceptional individuals rather then a rule but I > > will not start the debate over again. > > As has been noted previously, there are direct statements by > Tolkien indicating that the Elves in general WOULD be re-embodied. > It is certainly possible that he could have changed his mind about > this decision, but I'm not aware of any evidence that he did. Tolkien's most direct remarks about elvish re-embodiment are in the _Quenta Silmarillion_ Immortal were the Elves, and their wisdom waxed from age to age, and no sickness nor pestilence brought death to them. Yet their bodies were of the stuff of earth and could be destroyed, and in those days they were more like to the bodies of Men, and to the earth, since they had not so long been inhabited by the fire of the spirit, which consumeth them from within in the courses of time. Therefore they could perish in the tumults of the world, and stone and water had power over them, and they could be slain with weapons in those days, even by mortal Men. And outside Valinor they tasted bitter grief, and some wasted and waned with sorrow, until they faded from the earth. Such was the measure of their mortality foretold in the Doom of Mandos spoken in Araman. But if they were slain or wasted with grief, they died not from the earth, and their spirits went back to the halls of Mandos, and there waited, days or years, even a thousand, according to the will of Mandos and their deserts. Thence they are recalled at length to freedom, either as spirits, taking form according to their own thought, as the lesser folk of the divine race; or else, it is said, they are at times re-born into their own children, and the ancient wisdom of their folk does not perish or grow less. - Of Men (The Lost Road & The War of the Jewels) In Tolkien's later philosophizing on the metaphysics of Elvish immortality the idea that they could live as un-housed spirits was modified, and the concept of re-birth in their children was abandoned altogether. But the central thesis remained the same: after death Elves are "recalled" to physical life. > > >> (12) If an Elf commited a suicide, would he/she be allowed to > >> reincarnate? > > > Definitely no. > > We have very few examples of suicides in Tolkien's stories. The > most notable is Turin (a human) who, in a rather remarkable > coincidence, does in fact reincarnate according to various texts. > Given that a human suicide was accorded exceptional honor (even > being elevated to 'godhood' in some versions) I'd suspect that > Tolkien would not have considered it an automatic disqualification > for re-embodiment / inherently evil. The other example of suicide that you are thinking of is probably Neinor/Niniel. Both cases, Turin and his sister, are extreme examples of the mechanizations of Morgoth and are referred to as his "most evil works". They can therefore, I think, be pardoned for their behavior _in extremis_. Why do you assume Turin will return incarnate? You may be right but the texts that I've read don't say or imply it. They say only that Turin comes from Mandos (or alternately, he returns from the fate of Men) to fight Melkor (who is by nature an *un-carnate* spirit). ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of elves II Lines: 20 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 19:08:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.25.12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 969822504 12.79.25.12 (Sun, 24 Sep 2000 19:08:24 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 19:08:24 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!fr.clara.net!fr.clara.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters2!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27539 "Dave Lind" wrote in message news:j4mz5.9309$hD4.1858565@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > Why do you assume Turin will return incarnate? You may be right > but the texts that I've read don't say or imply it. They say only > that Turin comes from Mandos (or alternately, he returns from the > fate of Men) to fight Melkor (who is by nature an *un-carnate* > spirit). Prior to being banished to the Void Morgoth had become permanently bound in an incarnate form. He might have been able to somehow reverse that situation prior to Dagor Dagorath, but the texts definitely seem to describe the confrontation in physical terms; Turin wields a sword and 'gives the death stroke'. It is possible that he was an incorporeal spirit wielding a sword crafted of 'spiritual ephemera' or somesuch, but on the face of it he seems to be quite physically present. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of elves II Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:55:43 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.50 X-Server-Date: 24 Sep 2000 19:55:07 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!gip.net.MISMATCH!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net.MISMATCH!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27562 Dave Lind wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Why do you assume Turin will return incarnate? You may be right but the >texts that I've read don't say or imply it. They say only that Turin comes >from Mandos (or alternately, he returns from the fate of Men) to fight >Melkor (who is by nature an *un-carnate* spirit). Interesting article, Dave, but did you make a thinko in the above paragraph? Morgoth was incarnate, or otherwise how could Fingolfin have wounded him during their single combat? "Morgoth went ever halt of one foot after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not be healed; and in his face was the scar that Thorondor made." I thought the whole deal was that, like Sauron after him, Morgoth had used up his ability to put bodies on and off and was stuck with the one he had picked. It's kind of like when we made faces as kids and our mothers warned us we could "freeze like that". -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of elves II Lines: 41 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 22:03:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.62.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.mi.home.com 969832981 24.0.62.34 (Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:03:01 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:03:01 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.mi.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27612 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.1438264f135ff87898b806@news.mindspring.com... > Dave Lind wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Why do you assume Turin will return incarnate? You may be right but the > >texts that I've read don't say or imply it. They say only that Turin comes > >from Mandos (or alternately, he returns from the fate of Men) to fight > >Melkor (who is by nature an *un-carnate* spirit). > > Interesting article, Dave, but did you make a thinko in the above > paragraph? No, I said "by nature" - Melkor was a spirit who like the other great Valar could assume flesh if he wanted to. > > Morgoth was incarnate, or otherwise how could Fingolfin have wounded > him during their single combat? "Morgoth went ever halt of one foot > after that day, and the pain of his wounds could not be healed; and > in his face was the scar that Thorondor made." What does this have to do with Melkor when he returns at the end of Time? > I thought the whole deal was that, like Sauron after him, Morgoth > had used up his ability to put bodies on and off and was stuck with > the one he had picked. Can't he choose to come back without a body? After all his body was slain at the end of the First Age. The mode of his return (corporeal or incorporeal) is not explained. So my question still stands: why do you assume Turin will be incarnate when he returns to fight Melkor? I could now also expand the original question to include Melkor: why do you assume Melkor will return to Arda in a physical body? Dave ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of elves II Lines: 29 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 22:19:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.62.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.mi.home.com 969833973 24.0.62.34 (Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:19:33 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:19:33 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.mi.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27608 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:Iisz5.2357$s76.208322@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > "Dave Lind" wrote in message > news:j4mz5.9309$hD4.1858565@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > > > Why do you assume Turin will return incarnate? You may be right > > but the texts that I've read don't say or imply it. They say only > > that Turin comes from Mandos (or alternately, he returns from the > > fate of Men) to fight Melkor (who is by nature an *un-carnate* > > spirit). > > Prior to being banished to the Void Morgoth had become permanently > bound in an incarnate form. He might have been able to somehow > reverse that situation prior to Dagor Dagorath, but the texts > definitely seem to describe the confrontation in physical terms; > Turin wields a sword and 'gives the death stroke'. It is possible > that he was an incorporeal spirit wielding a sword crafted of > 'spiritual ephemera' or somesuch, but on the face of it he seems > to be quite physically present. Tolkien said that the mind should not boggle at the idea of Sauron's disembodied spirit carring off the One Ring from Numenor - so why should it boggle because Turin's spirit could wield a sword? Dave ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of elves II Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 00:21:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.28.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 969841299 12.79.28.107 (Mon, 25 Sep 2000 00:21:39 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 00:21:39 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.19!wnmasters2!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27587 "Dave Lind" wrote in message news:V5vz5.9472$hD4.2073838@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > Tolkien said that the mind should not boggle at the idea of > Sauron's disembodied spirit carring off the One Ring from Numenor > - so why should it boggle because Turin's spirit could wield a > sword? Even supposing this to be the case... why is this sword then dealing a 'death blow' to the supposedly incorporeal Morgoth? Granted, in one of the early versions of the story it was 'the spirit of Turin' that took part in the Last Battle but that wouldn't preclude the spirit being physically incarnated for that version of the story. In the end I assume that Turin and Morgoth were corporeal for the Last Battle for the same reason that I assume Aragorn had toes... Tolkien never specifically said so, but his descriptions are consistent with that view and these conclusions proceed naturally from what we know - without need of extra assumptions. Aragorn was human... therefor chances are he had toes. Turin killed Morgoth with a sword... therefor chances are they were both corporeal. These are certainly 'assumptions', but they are about as well grounded as we can get barring a direct statement by JRRT. ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of elves II Lines: 44 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 01:20:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.62.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.mi.home.com 969844851 24.0.62.34 (Sun, 24 Sep 2000 18:20:51 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 18:20:51 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!oleane.net!oleane!news-raspail.gip.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.mi.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27609 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:nUwz5.4749$6T.406519@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > "Dave Lind" wrote in message > news:V5vz5.9472$hD4.2073838@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > > > Tolkien said that the mind should not boggle at the idea of > > Sauron's disembodied spirit carring off the One Ring from Numenor > > - so why should it boggle because Turin's spirit could wield a > > sword? > > Even supposing this to be the case... why is this sword then > dealing a 'death blow' to the supposedly incorporeal Morgoth? As I've said before Melkor was primarily a spirit-being. Whatever killed him had to kill his spirit too. > > Granted, in one of the early versions of the story it was 'the > spirit of Turin' that took part in the Last Battle but that > wouldn't preclude the spirit being physically incarnated for that > version of the story. > > In the end I assume that Turin and Morgoth were corporeal for the > Last Battle for the same reason that I assume Aragorn had toes... > Tolkien never specifically said so, but his descriptions are > consistent with that view and these conclusions proceed naturally > from what we know - without need of extra assumptions. Aragorn > was human... therefor chances are he had toes. Turin killed > Morgoth with a sword... therefor chances are they were both > corporeal. These are certainly 'assumptions', but they are about > as well grounded as we can get barring a direct statement by JRRT. In later outlines the Valar executed Morgoth after his trial. Are we then to assume that the deed was done with a material sword (or hatchet or noose, whatever the case may be)? Dave Dave ###### From: tar_elenion@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of elves II Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 03:13:02 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 55 Message-ID: <8qmfrg$6p4$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.196 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Sep 25 03:13:02 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 ptlum1.sfba.home.com[1809EFD2] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.196 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!fr.clara.net!fr.clara.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27572 In article , "Dave Lind" wrote: > > > "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message > news:nUwz5.4749$6T.406519@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > > "Dave Lind" wrote in message > > news:V5vz5.9472$hD4.2073838@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > > > > > Tolkien said that the mind should not boggle at the idea of > > > Sauron's disembodied spirit carring off the One Ring from Numenor > > > - so why should it boggle because Turin's spirit could wield a > > > sword? > > > > Even supposing this to be the case... why is this sword then > > dealing a 'death blow' to the supposedly incorporeal Morgoth? > > As I've said before Melkor was primarily a spirit-being. Whatever killed him > had to kill his spirit too. > > > > Granted, in one of the early versions of the story it was 'the > > spirit of Turin' that took part in the Last Battle but that > > wouldn't preclude the spirit being physically incarnated for that > > version of the story. > > > > In the end I assume that Turin and Morgoth were corporeal for the > > Last Battle for the same reason that I assume Aragorn had toes... > > Tolkien never specifically said so, but his descriptions are > > consistent with that view and these conclusions proceed naturally > > from what we know - without need of extra assumptions. Aragorn > > was human... therefor chances are he had toes. Turin killed > > Morgoth with a sword... therefor chances are they were both > > corporeal. These are certainly 'assumptions', but they are about > > as well grounded as we can get barring a direct statement by JRRT. > > In later outlines the Valar executed Morgoth after his trial. Are we then to > assume that the deed was done with a material sword (or hatchet or noose, > whatever the case may be)? > > Dave > > Dave > > Morgoth's physical body was executed. His spirit was then cast out of Arda. Tar-Elenion Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of elves II Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 17:11:21 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 3f.35.6f.5d X-Server-Date: 25 Sep 2000 21:11:17 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27620 Dave Lind wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Can't he choose to come back without a body? After all his body was slain at >the end of the First Age. Was it? "His feet were hewn from under him", but that is not quite the same thing. The same passage continues "Then he was bound with the chain Angainor which he had worn aforetime, and his iron crown they beat into a collar for his neck, and his head was bowed upon his knees." If his body was dead, how could they do those things to it? And if he still had the power to leave it, why would he have stayed in it under those circumstances? No, it seems to me that while Melkor's original nature was pure spirit, by the end of the First Age he had become bound to a body. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of elves II Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <1%Rz5.4276$s76.325265@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 00:22:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.56.68 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 969927741 12.79.56.68 (Tue, 26 Sep 2000 00:22:21 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 00:22:21 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.72!wnfilter2!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27582 "Dave Lind" wrote in message news:TLxz5.9537$hD4.2134258@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > As I've said before Melkor was primarily a spirit-being. Whatever > killed him had to kill his spirit too. Frequent issue: define "kill". Whenever this sort of thing comes up there is alot of confusion on intents. I don't think Melkor's spirit COULD be 'killed' - in the sense of utterly and permanently destroyed. Tolkien wrote that spirits were indestructible. He could possibly be driven out or reduced to impotence, but he would still exist. An exception for Melkor might seem appropriate, but is nowhere suggested that I can think of. > In later outlines the Valar executed Morgoth after his trial. Are > we then to assume that the deed was done with a material sword > (or hatchet or noose, whatever the case may be)? Most definitely yes. The texts specifically state that by then Morgoth had become permanently bound in a physical form and describe his execution or banishment (depending on the version) in very clearly and specifically physical terms - as noted by another respondent. ###### From: raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of elves II References: <8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <1%Rz5.4276$s76.325265@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 32 Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 07:47:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.215.42.138 X-Complaints-To: abuse@asiaonline.net X-Trace: news.interact.net.au 969954476 210.215.42.138 (Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:47:56 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:47:56 EST Organization: an Asia Online client - http://www.asiaonline.net/ X-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 18:47:56 EST (news.interact.net.au) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!news.interact.net.au!raka Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27622 On Tue, 26 Sep 2000 00:22:21 GMT, Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >"Dave Lind" wrote in message >news:TLxz5.9537$hD4.2134258@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > >> As I've said before Melkor was primarily a spirit-being. Whatever >> killed him had to kill his spirit too. > >Frequent issue: define "kill". > >Whenever this sort of thing comes up there is alot of confusion on >intents. I don't think Melkor's spirit COULD be 'killed' - in the >sense of utterly and permanently destroyed. Tolkien wrote that >spirits were indestructible. He could possibly be driven out or >reduced to impotence, but he would still exist. An exception for >Melkor might seem appropriate, but is nowhere suggested that I can >think of. You bring up an intersting issue. I agree that Tolkien thought of spirits as indistrcutible, if only because it seems like one of the bits of Christian doctrine which would feen necassary to import to ME. However, in what sense then was Arda to be the life of the Ainur who chose to go there? "But this condition Iluvatar made, or[sic?] it is the neccesity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and boudned in the World, to be within it forever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs". This passage does not actually say that the Ainur are extinguished after the end of Arda, but it does not explain how Arda is their life. ###### From: pbachjson@aol.compart (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of elves II Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 26 Sep 2000 16:11:38 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000926121138.29845.00000750@nso-fw.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27598 In article , raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) writes: >This passage does not actually say that the Ainur are extinguished >after the end of Arda, but it does not explain how Arda is their >life. > > Its probably something similar to the Elves situation. While Arda exists they are bound to it, but there is no mention of what happens when Arda ends. If it did end presumably they would be unfettered again and be able to return in essence to the timeless halls. I'm just not sure if it does end or not. Is Arda remade a _new_ Arda made from the old parts and as long as the parts are in existence does the binding to the whole still stand or not?. Arda Healed certainly sounds like the same old Arda, but better. I can't think of any reference to a brand new from scratch Arda II or of a nothingness that is to follow after the time in which Arda is expires. Breathe Peace PaulB "The greatest compliment that was ever paid to me was when someone asked me what I thought, and attended to my answer." Henry David Thoreau ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <1%Rz5.4276$s76.325265@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of elves II Lines: 36 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 12:35:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.62.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.mi.home.com 970058119 24.0.62.34 (Wed, 27 Sep 2000 05:35:19 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 05:35:19 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.mi.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27664 "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote in message news:1%Rz5.4276$s76.325265@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > "Dave Lind" wrote in message > news:TLxz5.9537$hD4.2134258@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > > > As I've said before Melkor was primarily a spirit-being. Whatever > > killed him had to kill his spirit too. > > Frequent issue: define "kill". I could try to define it as banished to the Void, or banished from the presence of God (i.e. the Christian doctrine of the second Death or eternal damnation), but I won't. Tolkien's intent in this regard is purposely vague. We don't know for certain if Melkor was banished to the void (little v) outside Arda or if he was banished to The Void (capital V) outside Creation. > > Whenever this sort of thing comes up there is alot of confusion on > intents. I don't think Melkor's spirit COULD be 'killed' - in the > sense of utterly and permanently destroyed. Tolkien wrote that > spirits were indestructible. He could possibly be driven out or > reduced to impotence, but he would still exist. An exception for > Melkor might seem appropriate, but is nowhere suggested that I can > think of. I reread the passage last night in "Myths Transformed" #7 where Morgoth was executed. Somehow in previous readings I got the mistaken idea that Tolkien wrote that Morgoth was killed and his spirit destroyed. I withdraw the argument. Dave ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8q9rmt$u4f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <1%Rz5.4276$s76.325265@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of elves II Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:34:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.73.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 970335250 12.78.73.107 (Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:34:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:34:10 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!204.127.161.3!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters2!bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27725 "Adrian Ratnapala" wrote in message news:slrn8t0kei.e56.raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au... > However, in what sense then was Arda to be the life of the Ainur > who chose to go there? > "But this condition Iluvatar made, or[sic?] it is the neccesity > of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained > and boudned in the World, to be within it forever, until it is > complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs". > This passage does not actually say that the Ainur are > extinguished after the end of Arda, but it does not explain how > Arda is their life. Manwe Sang of the airs, Ulmo the waters, Yavanna the living things, Aule the earth, and so forth. Likewise they held power in these things and put out their power into these things... they gave these things existence and put their own existence into them. That is one possible meaning of 'so that they are its life and it is theirs'. As to the end of Arda... well, if after the end there is an 'Arda Renewed' then Arda does not in fact 'end' at all... only 'Arda as it has been'. Perhaps the final 'Arda Unmarred' would be open and at one with the Void and the Timeless Halls.