From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gildor's home Lines: 96 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 15 Sep 2000 21:03:26 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000915170326.20965.00004462@nso-cg.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27326 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: >> Aris Katsaris wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >> >With the removal of the name of "Inglor" however, Gildor can no >> >longer be the grandson of Finarfin. So he probably means that his >> >family followed the people of Finarfin (led by Finrod). > >> But this makes no sense, as I tried to say earlier. Finrod died >> years before the end of the First Age, and his realm of Nargothrond >> was also destroyed before the end of the First Age. So any of his >> followers who escaped the sack would surely cease describing >> themselves as being of his house, after 6000+ years. In all that >> time they would form new loyalties to new lords. > >But the question is, who were these new lords to whom they would form >new loyalties? The only strong leader of the Noldor in Middle-earth >that I can think of after the First Age is Gil-Galad. Now, I can't >imagine that every noble Noldo left in Middle-earth found a place in >the House of Gil-galad, or wanted to. (Gil-galad may well have >already had his own House largely established before the end of the >First Age and the rearrangements that followed.) Not only that, but I >could imagine that saying, "I was a high chieftain under Finrod" would >earn more respect than saying, "I was a high chieftan under >Gil-galad." > >I've thought of a possible reason for Gildor's continued use of the >title "of the House of Finrod". After the fall of Nargothrond, its >few (free) survivors were presumably scattered about the countryside. >The surviving leaders would probably do what they could to gather the >others together, both for their own defense and to have some small >hope of continuing the fight against Morgoth (much as Barahir did >after his land fell to the Enemy). Now, assuming that Gildor was one >of those leaders, he could either tell the scatterred refugees, >"Follow me, I'm Gildor", or, "Follow me, I was trusted by our founding >king". I could well imagine that in a time of disaster, many of the >refugees would be comforted by any reminder of the former structure of >their lives. > >Once the group was established, Gildor could probably communicate his >position and his authority most concisely with precisely the statement >"I am Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod": other Elves might not >know him, but they would immediately understand that he was a >chieftain of Nargothrond and might readily guess more of his history >(and that of his followers). Over the years, "of the House of Finrod" >may have become almost a "lordly" title in its own right, particularly >if his group of refugees remained together as a community under his >lead over the long years. I dunno. Whoever survived the fall of Nargothrond pretty much made their way to the Havens at the mouth of Sirion. Anyway, I think there are several explanations. Several Noldorin titles and crowns converged on Gil-galad. He was high king as surviving heir of Turgon. He was also heir to Finrod who was not only King of the defunct realm of Nargothrond but also had a grant directly from Thingol over the Sindarin population in that area. I've argued in different contexts that Thingol's grant survivied the fall of the physical realm of Nargothrond and the refugee Sindarin population of the former Nargothrond would still have the scion of the House of Finrod as their liegelord. Anyway, I think as you say, that Gildor was essentially using this moniker to identify himself as part of an older noble tradition than the johnny come lately's of the Second and Third Ages. Only those who rose to prominence under Gil-galad might identify themselves as being of the House of Gil-galad. What Gildor was saying is that he earned his strip[es under Finrod. > >I'm pretty sure that this is accepted as the "real", story-external >explanation. However, Tolkien did often feel himself to be bound by >published names and details (Glorfindel being a prime example), and >many of my favorite discussions on these groups have followed from the >same principles that he used to resolve such difficulties: trying to >work out a reasonable solution based on the constraints of the >published texts. We can often "learn more about Middle-earth" in the >process, and depending on the uniqueness of the solution to the >problem, somewhat "canonically" as well. In this case, if my >explanation above is a good one, we've learned something about the >aftermath of the fall of Nargothrond and the fate of its refugees. It >opens more questions, too: did other members of the House of Finrod >escape and form similar bands? Did similar leaders organize the >refugees from other fallen Elven nations? Did those groups play any >significant role in later events in the First Age or later? At any >rate, it's more interesting than just writing it off as an authorial >mistake. :) AFAIK, there were only three post-fall of Gondolin refugee groups: Balar, Mouth of Sirion and the Feanoreans in south Ossiriand. I recall some vague reference to some scattered bands surviving hidden up north but I don't think they were anything of significance. Russ ###### Lines: 25 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: pbachjson@aol.compart (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 18 Sep 2000 03:14:49 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Gildor's home Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000917231449.01044.00001747@nso-fh.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!psiuk-p4!uknet!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27401 In article , "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: >Fingolfin was dead. His realm of Hithlum had been destroyed. >Granted, it hadn't been 6000+ years, but the situation at least >suggests that the Eldar could indeed have continued to make >reference to the 'House' of a dead leader. > > And another point to be taken into account is that he is not _dead_ but just currently disembodied. Elves might have a stronger sense of loyalty than men in this matter because the heads of their houses are unavailable at the moment, whereas Men died in truth and leave Arda and so new loyalties can be forged and old ones set aside or even reneged upon without upsetting someone who sooner or latter may come back to lead them again. (Or at least not upset them in the same way, I suppose they might hold a grudge in the great beyond, and the loyalty to a house might be held to be a thing of honor, but its still not _quite_ the same thing. PaulB "Everything and anything about a culture can be inferred fom the shape of its language..." — Jubal Harshaw