From: Tom Sherlock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Wizard's Staff: Tool or Prop? Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 05:45:56 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 41 Message-ID: <8ppomh$mir$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.247.30.2 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Sep 14 05:45:56 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.72 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x71.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 165.247.30.2 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtomsherlock Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27264 Once again I have noticed something in LOTR that I did not notice the first 6 or 7 times. Has got to be the scholarly influence of this ng. To wit: I never really thought about the role the wizard's staff plays in determining the power or magic of the Istari, I figured it was just a prop because wizards are supposed to have staffs, or some silly logic lit that. However, after reading a couple of passages from LOTR III am starting to realize that the staff plays some important role in providing the wizard with power. When Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli seek an audience with Théoden, they are required to surrender all weapons before entering the kings chamber. After everyone has surrendered their weapon, Háma the Doorward of Théoden says to Gandalf: "Your staff. . . forgive me, but that too must be left at the doors." But Gandalf baulks: Foolishness!. . . prudence is one thing, but discourtesy is another. I am old. If I may not lean on my stick as I got then I will sit out here. . ." A few chapters later in "The Voice of Saruman" Gandalf says to Saruman "You will first surrender to me the Key of Orthanc, and your staff" [before you are allowed to go free]". "Saruman's face grew livid, twisted with rage, and a red light kindled in his eyes . . 'Yes, you will also have . . . the rods of the Five Wizards. . ." And then because Saruman refuse to cooperate, Gandalf is forced to remove Saruman source of power/magic in middle-earth: "'Saruman, your staff is broken.' There was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Saruman's hand. . ." In the FAQ it is said that the Istari are maiar,"incarnate angels"; and it is by being incarnated, clothed in human form that their power is naturally limited. I wonder if their power is so limited that, in order to maintain the status of wizards, they require some device to channel their power from the Void into their incarnate forms, this device being the staff. Tom Sherlock A disciple of the Blue Wizards Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Mika-Petri.Lauronen@oulu.fi (Mika-Petri Lauronen) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Wizard's Staff: Tool or Prop? Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 09:24:21 GMT Organization: University of Oulu Lines: 35 Message-ID: <39c097e3.10114628@news.oulu.fi> References: <8ppomh$mir$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pcc38252.oulu.fi X-Trace: ousrvr3.oulu.fi 968923422 21328 193.166.38.252 (14 Sep 2000 09:23:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@news.oulu.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2000 09:23:42 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.online.be!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!ousrvr3.oulu.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27260 On Thu, 14 Sep 2000 05:45:56 GMT, Tom Sherlock wrote: >A few chapters later in "The Voice of Saruman" Gandalf says to Saruman >"You will first surrender to me the Key of Orthanc, and your staff" >[before you are allowed to go free]". "Saruman's face grew livid, >twisted with rage, and a red light kindled in his eyes . . 'Yes, you will >also have . . . the rods of the Five Wizards. . ." And then because >Saruman refuse to cooperate, Gandalf is forced to remove Saruman source >of power/magic in middle-earth: "'Saruman, your staff is broken.' There >was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Saruman's hand. . ." > Yes, some of the power of Istari actually is stored in the staff. To be more exact, it is their sexual energy - thus the staff works as kind of phallic symbol, too... The scene above is - quite clearly - a symbolic castration. It is commonly believed (among the magic-using folks) that people's magical potential is greatest at two occations: death and orgasm. Sexual energy is quite a potent form of mental (=magic) energy. Although the (known) wizards assume male shape, they are quite asexual - they store their sexual energy in their staffs instead of using it. I think all this was unintentional, though. JRR's subconscious did a nasty thing to him. My article about the phallic implications of the wizard's staffs is being translated to English. It will be put in the net. I'll let you know when it is done. And yes, I am quite serious on this. Not entirely, but quite. "To see a World in a Grain of Sand / And a Heaven in a Wild Flower, Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand / And Eternity in an hour" -- William Blake -- ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Wizard's Staff: Tool or Prop? Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 17:10:10 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 26 Message-ID: <8pqmb3$d59$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8ppomh$mir$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39c097e3.10114628@news.oulu.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-a165.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 968940707 13481 212.205.240.165 (14 Sep 2000 14:11:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2000 14:11:47 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27268 Mika-Petri Lauronen wrote in message news:39c097e3.10114628@news.oulu.fi... > On Thu, 14 Sep 2000 05:45:56 GMT, Tom Sherlock > wrote: > > >A few chapters later in "The Voice of Saruman" Gandalf says to Saruman > >"You will first surrender to me the Key of Orthanc, and your staff" > >[before you are allowed to go free]". "Saruman's face grew livid, > >twisted with rage, and a red light kindled in his eyes . . 'Yes, you will > >also have . . . the rods of the Five Wizards. . ." And then because > >Saruman refuse to cooperate, Gandalf is forced to remove Saruman source > >of power/magic in middle-earth: "'Saruman, your staff is broken.' There > >was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Saruman's hand. . ." > > > > Yes, some of the power of Istari actually is stored in the staff. To > be more exact, it is their sexual energy - thus the staff works as > kind of phallic symbol, too... The scene above is - quite clearly - a > symbolic castration. Now why don't we all sing "A wizard's staff has a knob on the end" ? Aris Katsaris ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Wizard's Staff: Tool or Prop? Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 12:41:05 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <8ppomh$mir$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.cf.38 X-Server-Date: 14 Sep 2000 16:39:08 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newscore.gigabell.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!Quza.UK.peer!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27283 Tom Sherlock wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >When Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli seek an audience with Théoden, >they are required to surrender all weapons before entering the kings >chamber. After everyone has surrendered their weapon, Háma the Doorward >of Théoden says to Gandalf: "Your staff. . . forgive me, but that too >must be left at the doors." But Gandalf baulks: Foolishness!. . . >prudence is one thing, but discourtesy is another. I am old. If I may >not lean on my stick as I got then I will sit out here. . ." This has been discussed here, but AFAIR no definitive conclusion was reached. Other examples can be given as well -- Gandalf lighting wood on the way up Caradhras, for example. I don't think we know whether Gandalf made the staff himself, or brought it with him. However, it is not necessary to endow the staff with supernatural power to explain what G does with it. Think of it as a tool that Gandalf uses, as a man might use a screwdriver. With the screwdriver a man can drive and remove screws, a he could not with his bare fingers, but all the power is in the man and not in the tool. The tool simply focuses the man's own effort effectively on the task at hand. In the same way, I conceive of G's staff as a tool that he uses to focus his own innate energies. >Gandalf is forced to remove Saruman source >of power/magic in middle-earth: "'Saruman, your staff is broken.' There >was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Saruman's hand. . ." This always has seemed to me more a symbolic act, like ripping off the epaulets of a cashiered officer. Saruman had already been losing power, except for the power of his voice which he retained to the end. I don't believe G could have unilaterally stripped another Maia of power, just as Eönwë at the end of the War of Wrath could not pass final judgement on his fellow Maia Sauron. [end serious answers, begin whimsy] >In the FAQ it is said that the Istari are maiar,"incarnate angels"; and >it is by being incarnated, clothed in human form that their power is >naturally limited. I wonder if their power is so limited that, in order >to maintain the status of wizards, they require some device to channel >their power from the Void into their incarnate forms, this device being >the staff. Probably so. After all, Melian the Maia protected the realm of Doriath by stretching her girdle all the way around it. :-) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Lines: 47 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: pbachjson@aol.compart (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 14 Sep 2000 18:19:07 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Wizard's Staff: Tool or Prop? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000914141907.18852.00001656@nso-fw.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27277 Tom Sherlock wrote: >>Gandalf is forced to remove Saruman source >>of power/magic in middle-earth: "'Saruman, your staff is broken.' There >>was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Saruman's hand. . ." Stan Brown wrote: >This always has seemed to me more a symbolic act, like ripping off >the epaulets of a cashiered officer. Saruman had already been losing >power, except for the power of his voice which he retained to the >end. I respond to this and to comments made it the thread in general: Since the Istari came to Middle-earth with their power restricted in some way, maybe the staff was a repository for that portion of their power which they were unable to use. IMHO, I don't think the Valar would want to give the impression of holding a portion of each istar's power as hostage, so this would give the the istari posession of their own power with out the ability to use it. It would hold in it that power reserved but inaccesable. When Gandalf breaks Saruman's staff that power went not back to Saruman's incarnate body, but "home" to Aman (maybe as a result of the binding magic?) The theory amongst those contructing the staff being that in the case of the Isart being killed his staff would break and the individual portions of the spirit would meet in Mandos to be re-integrated. Saruman's staff was broken first though, so that portion went to Mandos but did not meet up with it's other half. Later Saruman's physical form was killed and blown Eastward, away from Aman and Mandos dooming both half to never being reintegrated. This wholly speculative scenario would also explain the significance of Saruman's claim that Gandalf would not be happy until he held all five of the wizard's rods, essentially claiming that Gandalf wanted to hold portions of the other four Istari hostage in order to make them do his bidding, just as I suppose the Valar were unwilling to do earlier. It may also perform the function of focusing the power the wizard retained in himself although for this I don't think it would be absolutely necessary. But this second use would not have to exclude the first purpose of the staff. Indeed, if one supposed that, despite being separated, the connection between hand and staff would allow the whole being's will to present although only the power within the embodied portion could be used, the staff would be precisely an aid in focusing, beyond what might have been in Steuard's thought's when he brought it up. PaulB "Everything and anything about a culture can be inferred fom the shape of its language..." — Jubal Harshaw ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8ppomh$mir$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Wizard's Staff: Tool or Prop? Lines: 22 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:36:29 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.110.159 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 968960040 212.151.110.159 (Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:34:00 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:34:00 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27332 Stan Brown hath written: >Tom Sherlock wrote: [snip] > >>In the FAQ it is said that the Istari are maiar,"incarnate angels"; and >>it is by being incarnated, clothed in human form that their power is >>naturally limited. I wonder if their power is so limited that, in order >>to maintain the status of wizards, they require some device to channel >>their power from the Void into their incarnate forms, this device being >>the staff. > >Probably so. After all, Melian the Maia protected the realm of >Doriath by stretching her girdle all the way around it. :-) She must have been one fat lady. Öjevind ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Wizard's Staff: Tool or Prop? References: <8ppomh$mir$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: coren@spdcc.com Organization: Pigs in Blankets From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Lines: 16 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:22:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.237.113 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 968966555 24.128.237.113 (Thu, 14 Sep 2000 17:22:35 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 17:22:35 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27345 In article , Öjevind Lång wrote: >Stan Brown hath written: >> >>Probably so. After all, Melian the Maia protected the realm of >>Doriath by stretching her girdle all the way around it. :-) > > >She must have been one fat lady. And the First Age couldn't end until she had sung. -- ---Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)------- Greg: Andy's missing a glove. James: Yeah, that accounts for his piss-poor attitude. Greg: That, and he don't like most people. --_NYPD Blue_, 1/28/97 ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Wizard's Staff: Tool or Prop? Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 19:01:56 -0400 Lines: 21 Message-ID: <39C158E3.DBCD4A4@erols.com> References: <8ppomh$mir$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: 6hSX7tRCvvYijop0vFDDImZ8wGlZmeMDDdy4e2B0z7E= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Sep 2000 01:40:39 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27348 Tom Sherlock wrote: > they require some device to channel > their power from the Void Shame on you! As a Wizard disciple you should know that the Void is empty! Of everything! Eru gave them their power! Is Alatar still here? > Tom Sherlock > A disciple of the Blue Wizards Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight "Protect your individuality by joining with those of like mind!" The Great Race, Tom Clancy's Net Force ###### From: Tom Sherlock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Wizard's Staff: Tool or Prop? Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 04:23:24 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 39 Message-ID: <8ps87d$li9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8ppomh$mir$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.247.44.67 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Sep 15 04:23:24 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.72 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x73.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 165.247.44.67 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtomsherlock Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27293 brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote: > Tom Sherlock wrote: > >[quote about Gandalf refusing to momentarily relinquish his staff.] > [snip] > However, it is not necessary to endow the staff with supernatural > power to explain what G does with it. Think of it as a tool that > Gandalf uses, as a man might use a screwdriver. With the screwdriver > a man can drive and remove screws, a he could not with his bare > fingers, but all the power is in the man and not in the tool. The > tool simply focuses the man's own effort effectively on the task at > hand. In the same way, I conceive of G's staff as a tool that he > uses to focus his own innate energies. I agree. Gandalf's staff is a tool to focus his own innate energies, which in my view supernatural since he is a Maia. However w/o his staff i believe Gandalf wd either have little power or unfocused, uncontrolable power. I'll continue to research the issue as time allows. I don't have any of the HoME books, but maybe there is something there. > > > [end serious answers, begin whimsy] > > After all, Melian the Maia protected the realm of > Doriath by stretching her girdle all the way around it. :-) > Gee, Stan, you're talking about Melian's girdle, and Mika-Petri is talking about phallic staffs, where is this thread going? ;) BTW, Stan, your sigline was very helpful. I dutifully searched the FAQ and lessFAQ for anything about the wizard's staff before posting the question. Tom Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "Androg" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8ppomh$mir$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Wizard's Staff: Tool or Prop? Date: Sat, 16 Sep 2000 17:19:22 +1000 Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com Message-ID: <39c311e9@casper.southcom.com.au> X-Trace: 16 Sep 2000 06:23:37 GMT, delta.tavultesoft.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feeder.via.net!205.158.27.239.MISMATCH!sjc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.labyrinth.net.au!casper.southcom.com.au!delta.tavultesoft.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27319 Tom Sherlock wrote in message news:8ppomh$mir$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > I never really thought about the role the wizard's staff plays in > determining the power or magic of the Istari, I figured it was just a > prop because wizards are supposed to have staffs, or some silly logic lit > that. However, after reading a couple of passages from LOTR III am > starting to realize that the staff plays some important role in providing > the wizard with power. Tolkien never explained the use of 'magic' in his stories: though he did emphasize that it was not the same as the "magic" of human traditions... I believe (though I'm not sure: I'll look it up and confirm it if possible) that Tolkien wrote that the significance of the breaking of Saruman's staff was that the staff was a symbol of Saruman's authority: and that breaking the staff was symbolic of the removal of Saruman's authority (and ability) to use the power of 'magic', but did not of itself cause the removal. I'll scout around and see what references I can come up with about this... -- Andróg "Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncúthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescéne land, eardgeard elfa, and ésa bliss." ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8ppomh$mir$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Wizard's Staff: Tool or Prop? Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 22:50:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.25.160 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 969231003 12.79.25.160 (Sun, 17 Sep 2000 22:50:03 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 22:50:03 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27390 "Tom Sherlock" wrote in message news:8ppomh$mir$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > I wonder if their power is so limited that, in order to maintain > the status of wizards, they require some device to channel their > power from the Void into their incarnate forms, this device being > the staff. In general I'd say... 'yes'. The strongest argument >against< this view is that Gandalf's staff is destroyed on the bridge, but he still managed to destroy the Balrog after that - and showed up later with a new staff. There are any number of explanations for that of course... I favor the idea that he managed to defeat the Balrog without whatever aid he got from the staff (Narya no doubt helped in that) and got a new staff from Eru when he was sent back. ###### From: Tom Sherlock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Wizard's Staff: Tool or Prop? Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2000 02:45:40 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8q3vkg$2a1$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8ppomh$mir$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.247.49.24 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Sep 18 02:45:40 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.72 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x55.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 165.247.49.24 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtomsherlock Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!fu-berlin.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27375 In article , "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: > "Tom Sherlock" wrote in message > news:8ppomh$mir$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > I wonder if their power is so limited that, in order to maintain > > the status of wizards, they require some device to channel their > > power from the Void into their incarnate forms, this device being > > the staff. > > In general I'd say... 'yes'. The strongest argument >against< > this view is that Gandalf's staff is destroyed on the bridge, but > he still managed to destroy the Balrog after that - and showed up > later with a new staff. There are any number of explanations for > that of course... I favor the idea that he managed to defeat the > Balrog without whatever aid he got from the staff (Narya no > doubt helped in that) and got a new staff from Eru when he was > sent back. > I missed that. I'll reread that passage. The role of the staff is a lot less obvious than it wd first appear. I'll have to reasses my earlier conclusion. Tom Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before ###### From: "Brian Grassie" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8ppomh$mir$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8q3vkg$2a1$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Wizard's Staff: Tool or Prop? Lines: 30 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-NNTP-Posting-Host: isdn-222.niagara.com Message-ID: Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 17:28:00 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.5.56.6 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sprint.ca X-Trace: newscontent-01.sprint.ca 969657974 209.5.56.6 (Fri, 22 Sep 2000 17:26:14 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2000 17:26:14 EDT Organization: Sprint Canada Inc. Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.lhr.globix.net!newsfeed.nyc.globix.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!east1.newsfeed.sprint-canada.net!HME1-2.newsfeed.sprint.ca!newscontent-01.sprint.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27526 *Lurker de-lurking* I got the impression that Saruman had been putting his power into imitating Barad-Dur; that he sacrificed his innate abilities in order to gather armies, control spy-birds, and breed half-orcs. While this may have increased his total power, it was not without cost. Perhaps he could have refocused his energies back into himself, in time, if Gandalf had let him retain his staff? Similarly, Morgoth put his own power into his creations (orcs, dragons, etc) and was unable to effectively fight the Valar personally when they came against him in the (his) end, although he had been mightier than Manwe when they first came to Arda. Sauron put his own power into the One Ring, diminishing his stature without it. Gandalf decided to keep his power within himself, using the power of Narya to give heart to others and not his own. Thus, even without his staff, he was able to continue fighting the Balrog. I also noted that he retained a formidable sword, Glamdring, which perhaps served as an alternative focus for his energies. I don't know how he got a replacement. The breaking of his staff can be explained if the staff serves (among other things?) as a focus for his energies- enough energy to break the bridge was too much for the staff to handle, and it too broke under the stress. -- Brian Grassie http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/thegreendragon/index.html Secretary-General, United Nations On-Line (www.unol.org) Suravye ninto manshima taishite ###### From: "Alatar" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Wizard's Staff: Tool or Prop? Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 13:00:03 +0100 Organization: Customer of Energis Squared Lines: 47 Message-ID: <8qi5u7$9q1$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <8ppomh$mir$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39C158E3.DBCD4A4@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-65.gadolinium.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news7.svr.pol.co.uk 969710343 10049 62.136.51.193 (23 Sep 2000 11:59:03 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Sep 2000 11:59:03 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27515 Ermanna wrote: > > Tom Sherlock wrote: > > > they require some device to channel > > their power from the Void > > Shame on you! As a Wizard > disciple you should know that the Void is empty! Of everything! Eru > gave them their power! Is Alatar still here? Yes, I'm still lurking. I think a better way of saying it would be 'a device to channel the power within them that is hard to reach while in human form.. like a poor memory.' In fact, I think the change in the istari's power (or use of it) in human form always reminds me of the way their memories are affected too. From Unfinished Tales: "..though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off.." If we view their power as also being 'far off' when in human form, either though it becoming hard to reach while in human form or because they chose to 'put it at the back of their minds' in a sense, then the staff's can be seen as a kind of power-memory aid that helps them channel the power, but are not entirely necessary to reach that power. When Gandalf was fighting the balrog, for example, he became concerned only with defeating the balrog and could give most of his attention to using his power, which would make his power easier to access/use without the aid of a staff... like concentrating on a event makes you remember lots of things about that event that you didn't realise you still knew. > > Tom Sherlock > > A disciple of the Blue Wizards Don't you have something better to do? ;-) -- Alatar "teunce norn" Find that Tolkien site in The Cave of Lost Scrolls: http://www.istari.f9.co.uk/tolkien/ ###### From: Tom Sherlock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Wizard's Staff: Tool or Prop? Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 00:17:52 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <8qm5j3$r2s$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8ppomh$mir$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39c097e3.10114628@news.oulu.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.247.28.30 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Sep 25 00:17:52 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.72 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x71.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 165.247.28.30 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtomsherlock Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.tele.dk!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!howland.erols.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27571 In article <39c097e3.10114628@news.oulu.fi>, Mika-Petri.Lauronen@oulu.fi (Mika-Petri Lauronen) wrote: > On Thu, 14 Sep 2000 05:45:56 GMT, Tom Sherlock > wrote: > > > Gandalf is forced to remove Saruman source > >of power/magic in middle-earth: "'Saruman, your staff is broken.' > >There was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Saruman's hand. . ." > > Yes, some of the power of Istari actually is stored in the staff. To > be more exact, it is their sexual energy - thus the staff works as > kind of phallic symbol, too... The scene above is - quite clearly - a > symbolic castration. > > It is commonly believed (among the magic-using folks) that people's > magical potential is greatest at two occations: death and orgasm. > Sexual energy is quite a potent form of mental (=magic) energy. > Although the (known) wizards assume male shape, they are quite asexual > - they store their sexual energy in their staffs instead of using it. > > I think all this was unintentional, though. JRR's subconscious did a > nasty thing to him. My article about the phallic implications of the > wizard's staffs is being translated to English. It will be put in the > net. I'll let you know when it is done. > As a linguistic, I wd be very interested in seeing the article in the original language. And, here's a challenge: how about translating the article in Sindarin or Quenya? Tom Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.