Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Mysterious Beings
X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999)
From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen)
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7
X-Trace: uchinews 968448429 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 08 Sep 2000 16:27:09 CDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 16:27:09 CDT
Organization: The University of Chicago
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 21:27:09 GMT
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26977

There's been a fair bit of discussion on the groups in the past month
or two (or three?) about various beings in Middle-earth and their
natures (the question "What are Dragons?" comes to mind).  When you
come right down to it, there are a _lot_ of things in Middle-earth
whose nature remains in question.  I thought, well, perhaps by making
a list we'll be able to group them into categories and look for
patterns.  Maybe we'll even learn something. :)  Without further ado,
here are the unknowns that I can think of (with vague
categorization).  Please feel free to add items to the list, to
discuss what we _do_ know about the nature of any of these, and to
make brilliant connections between them. :)

Dragons

Ents
Huorns
Old Man Willow

Eagles (talking kind)
Other sentient birds (e.g. the ravens and thrush in TH)
Random sentient animals (the <gulp> thinking fox, for example)

Ungoliant
Shelob
Other giant (talking) spiders

Tom Bombadil
Goldberry

Giants

Trolls
Orcs (hey, if Tolkien couldn't make up his mind...)


At any rate, I'm sure there are others but this is a fairly complete
list.  Some are connected to each other explicitly already (I'm fairly
sure that Ents and Eagles are both explicitly connected to Yavanna's
plea to Iluvatar in response to Aule's creation of the Dwarves, for
example), and others bear greater or lesser similarity to each other.
Another related question is the possibility of children of the Ainur.
Tolkien pretty much abandoned this notion, or so we've been led to
believe, but some examples persist throughout his writings: Luthien's
heritage was _never_ in doubt, as far as I know, and even in the
Osanwe-kenta (a very late essay) Tolkien refers to Ainur taking part
in the act of "begetting" (perhaps he just means "sex", but he chose a
word with definite implications of conception and childbirth; on
another note, that essay provides a strong motive for Ainur _not_ to
beget children even if they could).  I'll try to say a bit in this
discussion myself as time goes by, but I can't promise too much at
this point. :)  I'll read it, though!
						Steuard Jensen

######

From: Tamim <tamin.khawaja@helsinki.fi>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 00:50:02 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi>
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews>
NNTP-Posting-Host: latvabeekakkonen.in.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 968449785 13267 128.214.204.118 (8 Sep 2000 21:49:45 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Sep 2000 21:49:45 GMT
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!skynet.be!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26978

Steuard Jensen wrote:

> snip

The beings in Moria, even older than Sauron. In general about this issue:
people are going to say that let mysteries be mysteries and that every
sentient being doesn't have to have a precise origin. However, as far as I
can understand the only sentient beings were those created by eru and
those that came to eru before Arda (the ainur), so I can't just accept
that Tom was an anomaly and that his existance doesn't need an
explanation. To me he will always be some mysterious Ainu that came to ME
before others. The same applies to Ungoliant, she is a mystery sure. But
she is an Ainu and that doesn't make her less interesting. To me she is an
Ainu that represents ultimate Chaos, Hunger, and Selfishness. ( kind of
Kali Ma or Shiva but without the constructive properties)

Tamim the ultimate reductionist

######

From: "Jonas Thorell" <jonasth@bahnhof.se>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews>
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Lines: 9
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Message-ID: <ywdu5.272$pz5.140059@news.bahnhof.se>
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 22:13:50 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.237
X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se
X-Trace: news.bahnhof.se 968451230 195.178.166.237 (Sat, 09 Sep 2000 00:13:50 MET DST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 00:13:50 MET DST
Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!news.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27003

Steuard Jensen wrote:

> Dragons

Possibly related to the winged steads of the Nazgul.

/Jonas

######

From: "Aris Katsaris" <katsaris@otenet.gr>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 04:04:17 +0300
Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <8pc2e2$m9r$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi>
NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-q120.otenet.gr
X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 968461570 22843 212.205.254.120 (9 Sep 2000 01:06:10 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Sep 2000 01:06:10 GMT
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!128.39.3.166!uninett.no!news.ost.eltele.no!newsfeed1.enitel.no!masternews.telia.net!news-sto.telia.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26991


Tamim <tamin.khawaja@helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi...
> Steuard Jensen wrote:
>
> > snip
>
>The same applies to Ungoliant, she is a mystery sure. But
> she is an Ainu and that doesn't make her less interesting. To me she is an
> Ainu that represents ultimate Chaos, Hunger, and Selfishness.

Why Chaos?

Aris Katsaris

######

From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue Shift)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 20:54:16 -0700
Organization: Collective against Consensual Sanity
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <mlindanne-0809002054240001@c179.ppp.tsoft.com>
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews>
X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com
X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow.
X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields.
X-Should-not: You're not allowed.
X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back.
X-Ray-Specs: Off.
X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo
X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!c179.ppp.tsoft.com!user
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27008

/ Dragons
/ 
/ Ents
/ Huorns
/ Old Man Willow
/ 
/ Eagles (talking kind)
/ Other sentient birds (e.g. the ravens and thrush in TH)
/ Random sentient animals (the <gulp> thinking fox, for example)
/ 
/ Ungoliant
/ Shelob
/ Other giant (talking) spiders
/ 
/ Tom Bombadil
/ Goldberry
/ 
/ Giants
/ 
/ Trolls
/ Orcs (hey, if Tolkien couldn't make up his mind...)

Hobbits.

Watchers. (Statues? Maiar? Calcified Orcs?)

=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
Sign up for WASHINGTON MUTUAL BANK's special
We Rob You While You Sleep Service TODAY!
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity       v0.123
pretty pretty <blink>    http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/
All new and improved web pages!   Bookmark yours today!
:)-free zone. </blink>        Elect LUM World Dictator!

######

From: "Morgil" <rimlos@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <ywdu5.272$pz5.140059@news.bahnhof.se>
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Lines: 14
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Message-ID: <hHmu5.65$Ku1.5003@read2.inet.fi>
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 08:39:41 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.142.0.19
X-Trace: read2.inet.fi 968488781 194.142.0.19 (Sat, 09 Sep 2000 11:39:41 EET DST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 11:39:41 EET DST
Organization: Sonera corp
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!nntp.inet.fi!central.inet.fi!inet.fi!read2.inet.fi.POSTED!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26985


Jonas Thorell kirjoitti viestissä ...
>Steuard Jensen wrote:
>
>> Dragons
>
>Possibly related to the winged steads of the Nazgul.


What would be their official name? Winged Steads or Winged Beasts.

Morgil

######

From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue Shift)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 04:47:05 -0700
Organization: Collective against Consensual Sanity
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <mlindanne-0909000447050001@c157.ppp.tsoft.com>
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <ywdu5.272$pz5.140059@news.bahnhof.se> <hHmu5.65$Ku1.5003@read2.inet.fi>
X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com
X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow.
X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields.
X-Should-not: You're not allowed.
X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back.
X-Ray-Specs: Off.
X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo
X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!feeder.via.net!news.he.net!sn-xit-09!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!c157.ppp.tsoft.com!user
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27088

/ >Possibly related to the winged steads of the Nazgul.
/ 
/ What would be their official name? Winged Steads or Winged Beasts.

While I don't do spelling flames (really) I should point this is giving me
visions of houses flying through the air. Is this Middle Earth or Oz?

=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
Sign up for WASHINGTON MUTUAL BANK's special
We Rob You While You Sleep Service TODAY!
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity       v0.123
pretty pretty <blink>    http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/
All new and improved web pages!   Bookmark yours today!
:)-free zone. </blink>        Elect LUM World Dictator!

######

From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 08:31:10 -0400
Organization: Oak Road Systems
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <MPG.1423f796b48ffd4498b767@news.mindspring.com>
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews>
NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.cf.42
X-Server-Date: 9 Sep 2000 12:29:44 GMT
X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!news-in.nibble.net!feed.newsfeeds.com!newsfeeds.com!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27099

Steuard Jensen <sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in 
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
> When you
>come right down to it, there are a _lot_ of things in Middle-earth
>whose nature remains in question. 
>
>Ents
>Huorns
>Old Man Willow

I'm surprised to see you include the first two of these. Granted 
that they are not precisely described in /The Silmarillion/, but 
surely the Ents are the answer to Yavanna's prayer that something 
protect "her" plants from the ravages of walking creatures?

And Merry tells us about the Huorns:

"'It was the Huorns, or so the Ents call them in "short language". 
Treebeard won't say much about them, but I think they are Ents that 
have become almost like trees, at least to look at. They stand here 
and there in the wood or under its eaves, silent, watching endlessly 
over the trees; but deep in the darkest dales there are hundreds and 
hundreds of them, I believe.

"'There is a great power in them, and they seem able to wrap 
themselves in shadow: it is difficult to see them moving. But they 
do. They can move very quickly, if they are angry. You stand still 
looking at the weather, maybe, or listening to the rustling of the 
wind, and then suddenly you find that you are in the middle of a 
wood with great groping trees all around you. They still have 
voices, and can speak with the Ents - that is why they are called 
Huorns, Treebeard says - but they have become queer and wild. 
Dangerous. I should be terrified of meeting them, if there were no 
true Ents about to look after them.'"

Surely both of these explanations will already have occurred to you, 
so you must have some reason for rejecting them. Could you tell us 
about it?

We're not told explicitly about Old Man Willow, s far as I can 
recall, but I assume he's one of the Huorns gone bad.

-- 
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA
                                     http://oakroadsystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm

######

From: Tamim <tamin.khawaja@helsinki.fi>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Date: 9 Sep 2000 13:50:59 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <8pdf83$1m9$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi> <8pc2e2$m9r$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sirppi.helsinki.fi
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 968507459 1737 128.214.205.27 (9 Sep 2000 13:50:59 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Sep 2000 13:50:59 GMT
User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha))
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27074

Aris Katsaris <katsaris@otenet.gr> wrote:

> Tamim <tamin.khawaja@helsinki.fi> wrote in message
> news:39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi...
>> Steuard Jensen wrote:
>>
>> > snip
>>
>>The same applies to Ungoliant, she is a mystery sure. But
>> she is an Ainu and that doesn't make her less interesting. To me she is an
>> Ainu that represents ultimate Chaos, Hunger, and Selfishness.

> Why Chaos?

Well she had the possibility to side up with either the Valar or
Morgoth, but she did the unexpected and turned against her master. How
many of Morgoth's servants have done that? 
She does not try to build just destroy (morgoth did build also).

Tamim



-- 

######

From: David Sulger <orius@webtv.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 15:53:07 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <8pdmcu$s2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.72.250.71
X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Sep 09 15:53:07 2000 GMT
X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98)
X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x52.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 166.72.250.71
X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDorius
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27034

In article <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi>,
  Tamim <tamin.khawaja@helsinki.fi> wrote:

> In general about this issue: people are going to say that let
> mysteries be mysteries and that every sentient being doesn't have to
> have a precise origin.

While I generally agree with this, I suspect that Steuart is probably
trying to put the list together for the FAQ.  He just seemed to be
looking for a list of being whose origin weren't explicitly explained,
not for a full explaination.

> However, as far as I can understand the only sentient beings were
> those created by eru and those that came to eru before Arda (the
> ainur),

Well, that's only one point of view.  Even though I tend to side with
the "it's a Maia" view in most of these cases, there's little or no
writings from Tolkien himself that sets things straight.  Also, in some
cases, he changed his mind on how his internal mythology worked as
well.  So all we really can do is speculate on what he intended.

--Dave


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: "Aris Katsaris" <katsaris@otenet.gr>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 19:57:57 +0300
Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <8pdq9k$ku6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi> <8pc2e2$m9r$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8pdf83$1m9$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>
NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-a178.otenet.gr
X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 968518772 21446 212.205.240.178 (9 Sep 2000 16:59:32 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr
NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Sep 2000 16:59:32 GMT
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27059


Tamim <tamin.khawaja@helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:8pdf83$1m9$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
> Aris Katsaris <katsaris@otenet.gr> wrote:
>
> > Tamim <tamin.khawaja@helsinki.fi> wrote in message
> > news:39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi...
> >> Steuard Jensen wrote:
> >>
> >> > snip
> >>
> >>The same applies to Ungoliant, she is a mystery sure. But
> >> she is an Ainu and that doesn't make her less interesting. To me she is
an
> >> Ainu that represents ultimate Chaos, Hunger, and Selfishness.
>
> > Why Chaos?
>
> Well she had the possibility to side up with either the Valar or
> Morgoth, but she did the unexpected and turned against her master. How
> many of Morgoth's servants have done that?

We don't know. Orcs often made minor rebellion, disobeyed their masters.
Osse served Morgoth at a time but repented and turned to the side of the
Valar
once again...

> She does not try to build just destroy (morgoth did build also).

I'd say she doesn't try to destroy, she simply tries to eat. Destruction by
itself
doesn't seem to be a goal of hers...

I just don't see her as signifying Chaos in any meaningful way - not unless
we
equate narcissism and selfishness with Chaos.

Aris Katsaris

######

From: "Morgil" <rimlos@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <ywdu5.272$pz5.140059@news.bahnhof.se> <hHmu5.65$Ku1.5003@read2.inet.fi> <mlindanne-0909000447050001@c157.ppp.tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Lines: 17
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Message-ID: <h1zu5.614$Ku1.14092@read2.inet.fi>
Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 22:42:21 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.213.244.194
X-Trace: read2.inet.fi 968539341 212.213.244.194 (Sun, 10 Sep 2000 01:42:21 EET DST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 01:42:21 EET DST
Organization: Sonera corp Internet services
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!nntp.inet.fi!central.inet.fi!inet.fi!read2.inet.fi.POSTED!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27037


China Blue Shift kirjoitti viestissä ...
>/ >Possibly related to the winged steads of the Nazgul.
>/
>/ What would be their official name? Winged Steads or Winged Beasts.
>
>While I don't do spelling flames (really) I should point this is giving me
>visions of houses flying through the air. Is this Middle Earth or Oz?


And Nazgul came on their Winged Bungalows?

Steeds or Beasts then...

Morgil

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <MPG.1423f796b48ffd4498b767@news.mindspring.com>
X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999)
From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen)
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <dkBu5.444$v3.4166@uchinews>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7
X-Trace: uchinews 968548745 128.135.12.7 (Sat, 09 Sep 2000 20:19:05 CDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 20:19:05 CDT
Organization: The University of Chicago
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 01:19:05 GMT
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!uchinews!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27028

Quoth brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown):
> Steuard Jensen <sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
> > When you come right down to it, there are a _lot_ of things in
> >Middle-earth whose nature remains in question.

> >Ents
> >Huorns
> >Old Man Willow
> 
> I'm surprised to see you include the first two of these. Granted 
> that they are not precisely described in /The Silmarillion/, but 
> surely the Ents are the answer to Yavanna's prayer that something 
> protect "her" plants from the ravages of walking creatures?

I _think_ I mentioned the Yavanna connection in my post (after the
list) as "explaining" both Ents and Eagles (with some uncertainty
about the latter)... though that section might have been cut from the
final posted draft.  My reason for including the Ents, at any rate, is
that they clearly do _not_ fit within the usual "Ainu/Eruhini/Dwarves"
list that people often assume (those who assume without much thought
that Bombadil is a Maia, for example).  They're either yet another set
of Eruhini (and for that matter, do Dwarves fit in that class?), or
some fundamentally different type of spirit.

> And Merry tells us about the Huorns:
> 
> "'It was the Huorns, or so the Ents call them in "short language". 
> Treebeard won't say much about them, but I think they are Ents that 
> have become almost like trees, at least to look at.

I was thinking of Treebeard's comment that Ents become tree-ish and
trees become Entish over the long years.  Perhaps it's just Ents
becoming Huorns and trees becoming slightly more limb-lithe, but I'm
not convinced (yet) that some Huorns didn't originate as trees rather
than as Ents.  If they did, then we've got "spontaneous generation of
souls"... or something like that.  At any rate, I figured it was worth
exploring, so it's on the list.

> We're not told explicitly about Old Man Willow, s far as I can 
> recall, but I assume he's one of the Huorns gone bad.

I'm fairly close to the same opinion, though he's clearly got a
powerful personality... and may be almost Entish in his ability to
influence the other trees (Huorns?) near him.

						Steuard Jensen

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <8pe29n$ckod4$1@ID-23037.news.cis.dfn.de>
X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999)
From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen)
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <tpBu5.445$v3.4191@uchinews>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7
X-Trace: uchinews 968549081 128.135.12.7 (Sat, 09 Sep 2000 20:24:41 CDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 20:24:41 CDT
Organization: The University of Chicago
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 01:24:41 GMT
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!uchinews!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27029

Quoth "Andrew Wells" <nospam@wellinghall.force9.co.uk>:
> Arguably:
> 
> Elves

Ok, here you've lost me. :) What's the argument about their nature?
I'm basically asking, just to clarify, the nature of the _spirit_ (or
_fea_) of each creature; I figured that the Eruhini were pretty well
understood.

> Dwarves

I'll grant you this one... I probably should have included it.  Any
votes and arguments for or against Dwarves as "adopted Eruhini" (at
least in terms of the nature of their spirits)?

> Hobbits

It seems pretty much definite that Hobbits are a branch of the human
race, so I was again simply including them as Eruhini without worrying
about it.  (I once posted an interesting theory on the origin of their
physical form... I'm pretty sure it's linked among my old articles on
my web page.  But that's not really what I'm asking in this thread.)

						Steuard Jensen

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi> <8pdmcu$s2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999)
From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen)
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <uwBu5.447$v3.4326@uchinews>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7
X-Trace: uchinews 968549530 128.135.12.7 (Sat, 09 Sep 2000 20:32:10 CDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 20:32:10 CDT
Organization: The University of Chicago
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 01:32:10 GMT
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27030

Quoth David Sulger <orius@webtv.net>:
> While I generally agree with this, I suspect that Steuart is
> probably trying to put the list together for the FAQ.  He just
> seemed to be looking for a list of being whose origin weren't
> explicitly explained, not for a full explaination.

Actually, I'm not really aiming for FAQ updates with this at all. :)
I'm just quite curious about Bombadil, and about other being in
Middle-earth in general.  I, unlike Tamim, am reasonably convinced
that there _are_ sentient beings in Middle-earth which are neither
Ainur nor Eruhini.  I'd nominate Ents as the most likely example, but,
well, this thread is intended to clarify the question. :)

> > However, as far as I can understand the only sentient beings were
> > those created by eru and those that came to eru before Arda (the
> > ainur),
> 
> Well, that's only one point of view.  Even though I tend to side with
> the "it's a Maia" view in most of these cases

Again, I suggest the Ents as an exception to that.  Also, I'm pretty
sure that Tolkien himself didn't even manage to hold on to the "Eagles
as Maiar" position for the full length of the essay that mentions it
(I'd need to check).

> So all we really can do is speculate on what he intended.

Yup. :)  But we can build up arguments for and against the various
possibilities, anyway.  It's fun! :)
						Steuard Jensen

######

From: Tamim <tamin.khawaja@helsinki.fi>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 14:09:56 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <39BB6C03.502100FC@helsinki.fi>
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi> <8pdmcu$s2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <uwBu5.447$v3.4326@uchinews>
NNTP-Posting-Host: prikaatikenraali.in.helsinki.fi
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 968584180 7069 128.214.204.119 (10 Sep 2000 11:09:40 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Sep 2000 11:09:40 GMT
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27031

Steuard Jensen wrote:

> Quoth David Sulger <orius@webtv.net>:
> > While I generally agree with this, I suspect that Steuart is
> > probably trying to put the list together for the FAQ.  He just
> > seemed to be looking for a list of being whose origin weren't
> > explicitly explained, not for a full explaination.
>
> Actually, I'm not really aiming for FAQ updates with this at all. :)
> I'm just quite curious about Bombadil, and about other being in
> Middle-earth in general.  I, unlike Tamim, am reasonably convinced
> that there _are_ sentient beings in Middle-earth which are neither
> Ainur nor Eruhini.  I'd nominate Ents as the most likely example, but,
> well, this thread is intended to clarify the question. :)
>

I didn't exactly say that the classes were eruhini and Aninur, did I. Ents
are not maiar sure, neither are they eruhini in the conventional sense.
They are beings to whom eru has given human like intelligence (even a dog
is a sentient being). Eru gave those trees that kind of abilities because
yavanna asked him to. Now the interesting part is that the Ents are not
only sentient, they have also "free will" and the "power" of abstract
thinking. What I would like to know is that do the ents and the eagles and
the few other animals and plants that are intelligent and free will  have a
soul. I would suppose so considering Tolkien's religious world-view.

I totally accept that ents and eagles are not maiar. What I meant was that
there are no "extra-ardan" creatures except the ainur.
Ungoliant, Tom Bombadil, the creatures below moria etc. which are clearly
"supernatural" ( or, well you know what I mean,  I hope, because I can't
come up with the right word) are Ainur, because I don't think they were
created by eru after arda.

Tamim

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi>
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Lines: 21
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Message-ID: <7SKu5.1976$6i1.176586@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:09:39 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.27.104
X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net
X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 968587779 12.79.27.104 (Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:09:39 GMT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:09:39 GMT
Organization: AT&T Worldnet
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.19!wnmasters2!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27044

"Tamim" <tamin.khawaja@helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi...

> However, as far as I can understand the only sentient beings were
> those created by eru and those that came to eru before Arda (the
> ainur)

The Ainur were >also< created by Eru.

> so I can't just accept that Tom was an anomaly and that his
> existance doesn't need an explanation.

Can you point to a statement anywhere which indicates that the
Ainur and the Eruhini (including Dwarves) were the only sentient
beings Eru created?  If such a statement existed you might take it
as a basis for assuming that everything which is sentient but not
one of the Eruhini MUST be an Ainu... but in the absence of such a
statement the possibility of other entities is very real.

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi> <8pdmcu$s2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <uwBu5.447$v3.4326@uchinews>
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Lines: 20
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Message-ID: <SYKu5.1977$6i1.175858@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:16:50 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.27.104
X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net
X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 968588210 12.79.27.104 (Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:16:50 GMT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:16:50 GMT
Organization: AT&T Worldnet
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27047

"Steuard Jensen" <sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:uwBu5.447$v3.4326@uchinews...

> Also, I'm pretty sure that Tolkien himself didn't even manage to
> hold on to the "Eagles as Maiar" position for the full length of
> the essay that mentions it (I'd need to check).

Depends on which one you are talking about.  In the essay he
objects to the idea on the grounds that Thorondor had descendants
and he had by then decided that the Ainur could not.  However, in
another (narrative) note it is simply stated as a given that they
were Maiar;

"Manwe however sent Maia spirits in Eagle form to dwell near
Thangorodrim and keep watch on all that Melkor did and assist the
Noldor in extreme cases."
MR, The Annals of Aman - Notes on Section 6 ~169

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi> <8pdmcu$s2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <uwBu5.447$v3.4326@uchinews> <39BB6C03.502100FC@helsinki.fi>
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Lines: 31
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Message-ID: <W0Lu5.1979$6i1.177241@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:21:10 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.27.104
X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net
X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 968588470 12.79.27.104 (Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:21:10 GMT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:21:10 GMT
Organization: AT&T Worldnet
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters2!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27042

"Tamim" <tamin.khawaja@helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:39BB6C03.502100FC@helsinki.fi...

> I didn't exactly say that the classes were eruhini and Aninur,
> did I. Ents are not maiar sure, neither are they eruhini in the
> conventional sense.

> What I meant was that there are no "extra-ardan" creatures except
> the ainur.

Hmmm.... so you seem to be splitting things into;

Ainur = Beings created by Eru outside of Ea
Everything else = Beings created by Eru within Arda

> Ungoliant, Tom Bombadil, the creatures below moria etc. which are
> clearly "supernatural" ( or, well you know what I mean,  I hope,
> because I can't come up with the right word) are Ainur, because I
> don't think they were created by eru after arda.

Yet in the case of Tom and the beings below Moria there is no
indication of them having existed outside of Arda.  Thus, we must
assume that is either left unmentioned or (by your definitions)
they are perforce NOT Ainur.

In Tom's case it seems to me unlikely that he came from outside of
M-E.  We actually hear rather alot about his background, but that
rather significant element is never mentioned.

######

From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 08:41:53 -0400
Organization: Oak Road Systems
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <MPG.14254b9ffacb8cfc98b77a@news.mindspring.com>
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi> <8pdmcu$s2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <uwBu5.447$v3.4326@uchinews> <SYKu5.1977$6i1.175858@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.cc.c4
X-Server-Date: 10 Sep 2000 12:40:35 GMT
X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27102

Conrad Dunkerson <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net> wrote in 
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
>
>However, in
>another (narrative) note it is simply stated as a given that they
>were Maiar;
>
>"Manwe however sent Maia spirits in Eagle form to dwell near
>Thangorodrim and keep watch on all that Melkor did and assist the
>Noldor in extreme cases."
>MR, The Annals of Aman - Notes on Section 6 ~169

I don't think your interpretation is quite logical. All the passage 
means is that *some* of the Eagles might have been Maiar. It does 
not mean that all the Eagles were Maiar. Manwë's messengers might 
well have joined existing eyries of Eagles in those mountains.

It's like saying that because the Wizards appeared to be Men, all 
Men were Wizards. In fact the vast majority of creatures that seemed 
to be Men, were Men. Similarly, the passage you quote would allow 
for the vast majority of Eagles to be "jes' plain birds". In any 
event, would not those Maiar in shape of Eagles have returned to 
Valinor at the end of the First Age, when their task was done -- 
just as Gandalf returned at the end of the Third Age?

My own view is that, in the Third Age, some (or maybe even all) of 
Tolkien's Eagles were far more intelligent than real-world Eagles, 
and hence they spoke and understood language. I don't think there's 
any need for Bilbo's or Gandalf's Eagles to be any sort of 
supernatural spirit. Everything that the Eagles did in H and LotR 
could be explained as the result of friendship of very intelligent 
animals for humans (or one who seemed to be human).

-- 
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA
                                     http://oakroadsystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <MPG.1423f796b48ffd4498b767@news.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Lines: 25
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Message-ID: <VtLu5.1997$6i1.178786@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:52:05 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.27.104
X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net
X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 968590325 12.79.27.104 (Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:52:05 GMT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:52:05 GMT
Organization: AT&T Worldnet
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.19!wnmasters2!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27051

"Stan Brown" <brahms@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1423f796b48ffd4498b767@news.mindspring.com...

> We're not told explicitly about Old Man Willow, s far as I can
> recall, but I assume he's one of the Huorns gone bad.

"There used to be some very dangerous parts in this country.  There
are still some very black patches.'
   'Like the Old Forest away to the north, do you mean?' asked
Merry.
   'Aye, aye, something like that, but much worse.  I do not doubt
there is some shadow of the Great Darkness lying there still away
north; and bad memories are handed down.  But there are hollow
dales in this land where the Darkness has never been lifted, and
the trees are older than I am."
TT, Treebeard

Treebeard seems to attribute the 'Darkness' to trees directly.
Possibly 'trees which have gotten Entish', but trees all the same.
I'd guess Old Man Willow was likewise somewhere on the sliding
scale from Tree > Huorn > Ent - with a more immobile 'treeish'
grounding.

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <MPG.1423f796b48ffd4498b767@news.mindspring.com> <dkBu5.444$v3.4166@uchinews>
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Lines: 15
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Message-ID: <ewLu5.1999$6i1.178800@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:54:34 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.27.104
X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net
X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 968590474 12.79.27.104 (Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:54:34 GMT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:54:34 GMT
Organization: AT&T Worldnet
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.19!wnmasters2!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27052

"Steuard Jensen" <sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:dkBu5.444$v3.4166@uchinews...

> Perhaps it's just Ents becoming Huorns and trees becoming
> slightly more limb-lithe, but I'm not convinced (yet) that some
> Huorns didn't originate as trees rather than as Ents.  If they
> did, then we've got "spontaneous generation of souls"... or
> something like that.

Hmm... 'spontaneous generation of souls' IF we assume that the
trees themselves did not have souls; which I do not think is at all
a safe assumption.  :)

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi> <8pdmcu$s2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <uwBu5.447$v3.4326@uchinews> <SYKu5.1977$6i1.175858@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <MPG.14254b9ffacb8cfc98b77a@news.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Lines: 41
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Message-ID: <6TLu5.2014$6i1.179935@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:18:58 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.27.104
X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net
X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 968591938 12.79.27.104 (Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:18:58 GMT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:18:58 GMT
Organization: AT&T Worldnet
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.19!wnmasters2!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27041

"Stan Brown" <brahms@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.14254b9ffacb8cfc98b77a@news.mindspring.com...

> I don't think your interpretation is quite logical. All the
> passage  means is that *some* of the Eagles might have been
> Maiar.

If we accept the passage at face value it would mean that some
Eagles WERE Maiar.  In that it does not mention there being any
other Eagles dwelling there, and that the Eagles as a whole acted
just as these Maiar in Eagle form were directed to, it suggests
that the Eagles of the First Age were in fact ALL Maiar.

> It's like saying that because the Wizards appeared to be Men, all >
Men were Wizards.

Except that we have explicit statements of there being Men and
Wizards as separate beings.  No such statements exist for the
Eagles/Maiar formed Eagles.  If Manwe sent Maiar to dwell near
Thangorodrim, keep watch of Melkor, and aid the Noldor in extreme
circumstances... is there any question that this precisely
describes Thorondor and his followers?

> My own view is that, in the Third Age, some (or maybe even all)
> of Tolkien's Eagles were far more intelligent than real-world
> Eagles, and hence they spoke and understood language. I don't
> think there's any need for Bilbo's or Gandalf's Eagles to be any
> sort of supernatural spirit.

Actually, the view I favor is that THOSE Eagles were in fact NOT
spirits.... being instead a physical incarnate race DESCENDED from
embodied spirits.  The original Maiar in Eagle form might well have
returned to Aman, leaving their less powerful descendants to dwell
in Middle Earth and make their own fates.

Of course that goes against the 'Ainur cannot have children'
principle... but then that principle already runs aground on the
rock that is Luthien.

######

From: "Aris Katsaris" <katsaris@otenet.gr>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 18:03:05 +0300
Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <8pg7u7$i2e$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <8pe29n$ckod4$1@ID-23037.news.cis.dfn.de> <tpBu5.445$v3.4191@uchinews> <8pfbsc$crfaa$1@ID-23037.news.cis.dfn.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o146.otenet.gr
X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 968598279 18510 212.205.252.146 (10 Sep 2000 15:04:39 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Sep 2000 15:04:39 GMT
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!uninett.no!newsfeed1.enitel.no!masternews.telia.net!news-sto.telia.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27055


Andrew Wells <nospam@wellinghall.force9.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8pfbsc$crfaa$1@ID-23037.news.cis.dfn.de...
> Steuard Jensen wrote in message ...
> >
> >It seems pretty much definite that Hobbits are a branch of the human
> >race, so I was again simply including them as Eruhini without worrying
> >about it.  (I once posted an interesting theory on the origin of their
> >physical form... I'm pretty sure it's linked among my old articles on
> >my web page.  But that's not really what I'm asking in this thread.)
>
> What I would like to do is take some time t o consider my thoughts on each
> of these races, then set them down more fully.  *If* I can arrange a week
> off between jobs, I'll try to fit it in then.
>
> I will, though, say that I have never been wholly happy by the "Hobbits
are
> men" theory.

How about the "Druedain are men" theory?

Aris Katsaris

######

From: "Morgil" <rimlos@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi> <8pdmcu$s2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <uwBu5.447$v3.4326@uchinews> <SYKu5.1977$6i1.175858@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <MPG.14254b9ffacb8cfc98b77a@news.mindspring.com> <6TLu5.2014$6i1.179935@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Lines: 16
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Message-ID: <5oTu5.297$vN2.39651@read2.inet.fi>
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 21:52:01 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.213.246.127
X-Trace: read2.inet.fi 968622721 212.213.246.127 (Mon, 11 Sep 2000 00:52:01 EET DST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 00:52:01 EET DST
Organization: Sonera corp Internet services
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!nntp.inet.fi!central.inet.fi!inet.fi!read2.inet.fi.POSTED!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27135


Conrad Dunkerson kirjoitti viestissä
<6TLu5.2014$6i1.179935@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

>Of course that goes against the 'Ainur cannot have children'
>principle... but then that principle already runs aground on the
>rock that is Luthien.


I wouldn´t call it a rock. If love makes Luthien a Mortal, it would be
probable that the love to an Elf made her mother a little bit Elvish.
(Just a thought...)

Morgil

######

From: "Aris Katsaris" <katsaris@otenet.gr>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 01:31:56 +0300
Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <8ph27p$skj$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi> <8pdmcu$s2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <uwBu5.447$v3.4326@uchinews> <SYKu5.1977$6i1.175858@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <MPG.14254b9ffacb8cfc98b77a@news.mindspring.com> <6TLu5.2014$6i1.179935@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <5oTu5.297$vN2.39651@read2.inet.fi>
NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o103.otenet.gr
X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 968625209 29331 212.205.252.103 (10 Sep 2000 22:33:29 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr
NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Sep 2000 22:33:29 GMT
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.pop.de!schlund.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!news.uni-ulm.de!news.belwue.de!news.tesion.net!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27153


Morgil <rimlos@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5oTu5.297$vN2.39651@read2.inet.fi...
>
> Conrad Dunkerson kirjoitti viestissä
> <6TLu5.2014$6i1.179935@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>
> >Of course that goes against the 'Ainur cannot have children'
> >principle... but then that principle already runs aground on the
> >rock that is Luthien.
>
> I wouldn´t call it a rock. If love makes Luthien a Mortal, it would be
> probable that the love to an Elf made her mother a little bit Elvish.
> (Just a thought...)

Tolkien himself said that the children of god are not machines that breed
other machines and that to each a unique fate is given - each may be an
exception to what is law for others. (The Lost Road) That can quite easily
be applied to Melian as well.

As for Melian in particular, Tolkien said that her taking elven form (not
just
as 'raiment', but a real elven form with all the strengths and weaknesses
thereof) due to her love for Thingol, was undoubtedly allowed because it
had been foresung/foretold/foreseen in the beginning, and woven into
the Destiny of the World.

In short, Melian *has* to be unique. It's not a rock. It's a plot point.

Aris Katsaris

######

From: bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:37:09 -0700
Organization: UCLA Chemistry
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <bnh-1009001737090001@ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu>
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <MPG.1423f796b48ffd4498b767@news.mindspring.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!awabi.library.ucla.edu!164.67.43.25!news.ucla.edu!ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu!user
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27176

In article <MPG.1423f796b48ffd4498b767@news.mindspring.com>, 



> 
> We're not told explicitly about Old Man Willow, s far as I can 
> recall, but I assume he's one of the Huorns gone bad.

I'm not so sure if he's "gone bad."  What if he's just
an ent who has a rather extreme interpretation of his 
original mission to protect the plants against the 
ravages of others*?  He certainly has a reason to oppose 
Hobbits--Merry tells in the chapter "The Old Forest" how 
"hobbits came and cut down hundreds of trees, and made a 
greatbonfire in the Forest."  Perhaps Old Man Willow 
interprets any hobbit walking around in the forest as
a threat to the trees there.

Bruce 

*Sort of like that one episode of the original Star Trek
where a space probe's original programming got messed up
and it reinterpreted it's mission to destroy all inferior
life forms.

######

From: "Androg" <androg at mail dot com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <8pe29n$ckod4$1@ID-23037.news.cis.dfn.de> <tpBu5.445$v3.4191@uchinews>
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:42:28 +1000
Lines: 21
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200
NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com
X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com
Message-ID: <39bc1cd6$1@casper.southcom.com.au>
X-Trace: 10 Sep 2000 23:44:22 GMT, delta.tavultesoft.com
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.labyrinth.net.au!casper.southcom.com.au!delta.tavultesoft.com
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27166

Steuard Jensen <sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:tpBu5.445$v3.4191@uchinews...
>
> Any
> votes and arguments for or against Dwarves as "adopted Eruhini" (at
> least in terms of the nature of their spirits)?

I'd vote for them being "adopted Eruhini": In a letter written in '58 JRRT
wrote about the origins of the dwarves, and Iluvatar says to Aule: "Behold!
thy creatures [dwarves] now live, free from thy will! For I have seen thy
humility, and taken pity on your impatience. Thy making I have taken up into
my design."

--
Andróg

"Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncúthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescéne land,
eardgeard elfa, and ésa bliss."

######

From: bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 18:57:27 -0700
Organization: UCLA Chemistry
Lines: 137
Message-ID: <bnh-1009001857270001@ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu>
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi> <8pdmcu$s2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <uwBu5.447$v3.4326@uchinews> <39BB6C03.502100FC@helsinki.fi>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!awabi.library.ucla.edu!164.67.43.25!news.ucla.edu!ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu!user
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27178

Letter #153 is particularly pertinent to this thread.
Some quotes:
"Trebeard does not say that the Dark Lord 'created' Trolls
and Orcs.  He says he 'made' them in counterfeit of certain
creatures pre-existing.  There is, to me, a wide gulf between 
the two statements, so wide that Treebeard's statement could (in my 
world) have possibly been true.  It is not true actually of the
Orcs - who are fundamentally a race of 'rational incarnate'
creatures, though horribly corrupted, if no more so than many
Men to be met today. . . . [Frodo was closer, saying] 'The 
Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make real new
things of its own.  I don't think it gave life to the Orcs, it only
ruined them and twisted them.'  In the legends of the Eldar Days
it is suggested that the Diabolus subjugated and corrupted some
of the earliest Elves, before they had ever heard of the 'gods',
let alone of God."

Of course, it is a fairly old idea that the devil cannot 
make anything of his own power, but only twist things made
by God.  Lewis uses this idea a lot in his writings as well.
For instance, see how he describes being evil as being "bent"
in the Space Trilogy--God made things one way, but evil bent
them away from the original plan.  The idea of evil as not a
thing in itself but as the lack (much like darkness is not
a real thing but just the lack of light) goes back to Augustine
(at least).  Of course, in the Genesis creation story, each
thing created is declared "good" before the fall.  Tolkien (and 
Lewis) would surely be thinking of this tradition.

Anyway, back to letter 153.

"I am not sure about Trolls.  I think they are mere 'counterfeits',
and hence . . . they return to mere stone images when not in the
dark.  But there are other sorts of Trolls beside these rather
ridiculous, if brutal, Stone-trolls [the ones from the Hobbit],
for which other origins are suggested.  Of course . . . when you
make Trolls speak you are giving them a power which in our world
(probably) connotes the possession of a 'soul'."

One could, of course, argue that Tolkien's caveat "in our world"
means that speech in Middle Earth does not neccessarily connote
the possession of a soul, or consciousness.  While this would get
us out of the bind of the fox and the thrush, I don't think this
works.

Tolkien goes on in this letter to talk about Tom Bombadil, but 
doesn't really help nail down what he is.  He notes that Tom
is "Eldest in Time," but rejects the notion that Tom is God.
I'd take this to mean that Tom was the first being in Arda,
before the Valar entered it.  Either he could be some other ainu
who went to Arda, or perhaps some sort of personified spirit
of Arda.

Further in this letter, Tolkien writes:
"So in this myth, it is 'feigned' that He [Eru] gave special
'sub-creative' powers to certain of His highest created beings:
that is a guarantee that what they devised and made should be 
given the reality of Creation.  Of course within limits, and
of course subject to certain commands or prohibitions.  But if
they 'fell', as the Diabolus Morgoth did, and started making
things 'for himself, to be their Lord', these would then 'be', even
if Morgoth broke the supreme ban against making other 'rational'
creatures like Elves or Men.  They would at least 'be' real
physical realities in the physical world, however evil they
might prove, even 'mocking' the Children of God.  They would 
be Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would
be creatures begotten of Sin, and natually bad. (I nearly wrote
'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far.  Because by
accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual
existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God's 
and ultimately good.)  But whether they could have 'souls' or 'spirits'
seems a different question; and since in my myth at any rate I do not
conceive of the making of souls or spirits, things of an equal order
if not an equal power to the Valar, as a possible 'delegation', I
have represented at least the Orcs as pre-existing real beings on
whom the Dark Lord has exerted the fullness of his power in remodelling
and corrupting them, not making them.  That God would 'tolerate' that,
seems no worse theology than the toleration of the calculated 
dehumanizing of Men by tyrants that goes on today.  There might
be other 'makings' all the same which were more like puppets filled
(only at a distance) with their maker's mind and will, or ant-like
operating under direction of a queen-centre."

This last idea is interesting.  It is possible that the dragons
had wills that came from Morgoth putting some of his will (soul?)
into them.  We know that Sauron somehow put some of his power
into the Ring, and it sometimes exerts a will that is perhaps ultimately
derived from Sauron.

BTW, we probably should add the Ring and Turin's sword to
the list of mysterious beings as semi-conscious inanimate objects.
I won't even get into whether the Ring spoke on Mt. Doom.  :)

Oh, one other note, Treebeard's conversation with Merry and Pippen
has many interesting things (though in the letter above Tolkien
warns us against taking Treebeard's voice as absolutely authoritative:
"Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has
a great memory and some earthy wisdome, he is not one of the Wise,
and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand.").
"Some of us are still true Ents, and lively enough in our fashion,
but many are growing sleepy, going tree-ish, as you might say.  Most
of the trees are just trees, of course; but many are half-awake.  Some
are quite wide awake, and a few are, well, ah, well, getting Entish.
. . . When that happens to a tree, you find that some have bad hearts."
"Like the Old Forest away to the north, do you mean?" asked Merry.
"Aye, aye, something like, but much worse.  I do not doubt there is
some shadow of the Great Darkness lying there still away north; and bad
memories are handed down."
"But some of my trees are limb-lithe, and many can talk to me.  Elves
began it, of course, waking trees up and teaching them to speak and
learning their tree-talk."

This is kind of interesting--that conscious beings can impart some
consciousness to unconscous beings.  Lewis has somewhat of a similar
idea.  In _Perelandra_ he has the Green Lady tell Ransom that she
makes the beasts "older" each day, i.e. wiser.  Elsewhere he speculates
about the eternal fate of animals and says that "as we are raised in
Christ, so at least some animals are raised in us.  Who knows, indeed,
but that a great deal even of the inanimate creation is raised in the
redeemed souls who have, during this life, taken its beauty into
themselves."(Letters to an American Lady, 26 Nov 1962).  He also
speculates on this in _The Problem of Pain_.

Later in TT, Treebeard says "[Trolls] are mighty strong.  But Trolls
are only conterfeits, made by the Enemy in the Great Darkness, in 
mockery of Ents, as Orcs were of Elves"

This is the passage Tolkien was commenting on in the above letter.

Later, at Isengard, Merry explains: "It was the Huorns, or so the 
Ents call them in 'short language".  Treebeard won't say much about 
them, but I think they are Ents that have become almost like trees, at least
to look at. . . . They still have voices, and can speak with the Ents . . . 
but have become queer and wild."


Bruce

######

From: LESDL <LESDLrem@ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Organization: Tertiary Adjunct Of Unimatrix Zero One
Message-ID: <0mrprs06uhtjncfmnub1a8g4h7urgn9fds@4ax.com>
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi>
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548
X-No-Archive: yes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 17
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:45:14 -0400
NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.58.158.13
X-Complaints-To: abuse@shore.net
X-Trace: news.shore.net 968683024 209.58.158.13 (Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:37:04 EDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:37:04 EDT
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.shore.net!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27219

On Sat, 09 Sep 2000 00:50:02 +0300, Tamim <tamin.khawaja@helsinki.fi>
squinted and tapped out:

>Steuard Jensen wrote:
>
>> snip
>
>The beings in Moria, even older than Sauron.

I don't think anyone's mentioned the many-tentacled creature in the
pool of water by the Doors Of Durin, the moria-gate. 
--

LESDL   
74" Asshole(tm) 24 lb BS
         SENS
http://eddiekieger.com

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <6TLu5.2014$6i1.179935@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <5oTu5.297$vN2.39651@read2.inet.fi> <8ph27p$skj$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>
X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999)
From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen)
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <hq6v5.521$v3.5077@uchinews>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7
X-Trace: uchinews 968684301 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 11 Sep 2000 09:58:21 CDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 09:58:21 CDT
Organization: The University of Chicago
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:58:21 GMT
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27108

Quoth "Aris Katsaris" <katsaris@otenet.gr>:
> > Conrad Dunkerson kirjoitti viestissä
> > >Of course that goes against the 'Ainur cannot have children'
> > >principle... but then that principle already runs aground on the
> > >rock that is Luthien.

> As for Melian in particular, Tolkien said that her taking elven form
> (not just as 'raiment', but a real elven form with all the strengths
> and weaknesses thereof) due to her love for Thingol, was undoubtedly
> allowed because it had been foresung/foretold/foreseen in the
> beginning, and woven into the Destiny of the World.

> In short, Melian *has* to be unique. It's not a rock. It's a plot point.

I don't really see why this implies that Melian is _unique_.  In fact,
I'd almost go to the opposite extreme: if Melian could become "fully
Elven" and have "Elven" children because of a deep love established in
the Music (or wherever), then why couldn't other Maiar who formed
strong attachments to one part of the music or other do the same
thing?  It feels like the main requirement--weaving into the Destiny
of the World--would be met by quite a few Ainur who had little
personal ambition and great love for parts of Middle-earth.  Whether
other emotions would also suffice is open to question (could deep hate
or lust for domination enable "Orc-Maiar" to father children on
helpless humans?)

Personally, I've become fairly open to the idea of Ainur having
children (perhaps necessarily in conjunction with some other spirit or
some other thing with the ability to reproduce, but perhaps not).  As
I've mentioned before, the _Osanwe-kenta_ provides a strong motivation
for them _not_ to beget offspring: "begetting" more than anything else
tended to bind the Ainur to the incarnate form that they held while
begetting, and such binding would be a strong disincentive to any
Maiar who did not wish to effectively relinquish many of their
"birthright" abilities.  We really don't know what incarnation did to
them, but Morgoth was extraordinarily limited by being in that form,
and Sauron suffered greatly because of those limitations as well.  At
any rate, I could easily imagine that none of the Valar and most of
the Maiar would avoid the powerful binding influence of procreation at
all costs, even if the option were open to them.  Thus, we have room
for Luthien (and very possibly many others) but we also have an
explanation for the lack of offspring of most of the Ainur that we
hear about.

I could say rather a lot more, but my point is that both the "able to
reproduce" and "only unique exceptions able to reproduce" ideas seem
to me quite tenable.  I lean toward the former at the moment, but I'm
willing to reverse that on a moment's notice if convincing arguments
the other way can be made. :)
						Steuard Jensen

######

From: David Sulger <orius@webtv.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:13:04 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <8pjard$2k1$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi> <8pdmcu$s2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <uwBu5.447$v3.4326@uchinews>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.72.250.131
X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Sep 11 19:13:04 2000 GMT
X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98)
X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x72.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 166.72.250.131
X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDorius
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27116

In article <uwBu5.447$v3.4326@uchinews>,
  sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote:
> Quoth David Sulger <orius@webtv.net>:

> > Even though I tend to side with the "it's a Maia" view in most of
> >these cases
>
> Again, I suggest the Ents as an exception to that.  Also, I'm pretty
> sure that Tolkien himself didn't even manage to hold on to the "Eagles
> as Maiar" position for the full length of the essay that mentions it
> (I'd need to check).
>
Well, remember I did say "most" of these cases .  The Ents are
definitely IMO one of the exceptions.  I would say, considering the
story of their origin in the Silmarillion, that they are somewhat akin
to the Eruhini, though not quite the same.  The same would go for the
Eagles.

> > So all we really can do is speculate on what he intended.
>
> Yup. :)  But we can build up arguments for and against the various
> possibilities, anyway.  It's fun! :)

Not when the arguments devolve into flame wars.  I cannot for the life
of me understand how some people could get so worked up over stuff like
Balrog Wings, talking rings and multiple Thrains.
>
--Dave


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: David Sulger <orius@webtv.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:28:51 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <8pjbop$3o5$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi> <8pdmcu$s2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <uwBu5.447$v3.4326@uchinews> <SYKu5.1977$6i1.175858@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <MPG.14254b9ffacb8cfc98b77a@news.mindspring.com> <6TLu5.2014$6i1.179935@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.72.250.131
X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Sep 11 19:28:51 2000 GMT
X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98)
X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 166.72.250.131
X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDorius
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27121

In article <6TLu5.2014$6i1.179935@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
  "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net> wrote:
>
> Of course that goes against the 'Ainur cannot have children'
> principle... but then that principle already runs aground on the
> rock that is Luthien.
>
The only thing I can think of there is that if an Ainu actually becomes
a different being, then it can function fully as a similar being,
including sexually, while it can't if it just takes the form as a
disguise.  IOW, Melian may have chosen to become an elf because of her
love for Thingol (what the hell did she see in him? :) ).  THe same
could be true of Thorondor and his followers; they may have been Maiar,
but they actually incarnated as eagles, and may have been able to
reproduce like them.  If this is the case, then Gwaihir may very well
be descended from Thorondor.

This leaves an interesting question: could the Istari have fathered
children?

--Dave


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <8pdmcu$s2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <uwBu5.447$v3.4326@uchinews> <8pjard$2k1$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
Reply-To: coren@spdcc.com
Organization: Pigs in Blankets
From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren)
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <Bsav5.82938$_s1.996790@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:33:53 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.237.113
X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net
X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 968700833 24.128.237.113 (Mon, 11 Sep 2000 15:33:53 EDT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 15:33:53 EDT
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone-east.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-east.rr.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27211

In article <8pjard$2k1$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
David Sulger  <orius@webtv.net> wrote:
>In article <uwBu5.447$v3.4326@uchinews>,
>  sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote:
>> Quoth David Sulger <orius@webtv.net>:
>
>> > Even though I tend to side with the "it's a Maia" view in most of
>> >these cases
>>
>> Again, I suggest the Ents as an exception to that.  Also, I'm pretty
>> sure that Tolkien himself didn't even manage to hold on to the "Eagles
>> as Maiar" position for the full length of the essay that mentions it
>> (I'd need to check).
>>
>Well, remember I did say "most" of these cases .  The Ents are
>definitely IMO one of the exceptions.  I would say, considering the
>story of their origin in the Silmarillion, that they are somewhat akin
>to the Eruhini, though not quite the same.  The same would go for the
>Eagles.
>
>> > So all we really can do is speculate on what he intended.
>>
>> Yup. :)  But we can build up arguments for and against the various
>> possibilities, anyway.  It's fun! :)
>
>Not when the arguments devolve into flame wars.  I cannot for the life
>of me understand how some people could get so worked up over stuff like
>Balrog Wings, talking rings and multiple Thrains.

Some People haven't posted here in several months.

My first reaction to this list was "Oh, no, not this again!"[1]  But
then I'm an old curmudgeon.

Actually, partly because of the way it was set out, this round looks
like it has the possibility of being interesting. I'll just throw in
my usual caveats, which everyone can ignore as usual :-) :

(1) The "Of Aulë and Yavanna" chapter is based on something very late
and (I suspect) hastily written, and seems like an attempt to fit the
otherwise anomalous Ents and Eagles into what had turned into a rather
rigid structure. Think of it as an early stage of the kind of thing we
do here.

(2) Often I feel the same way about remarks made in Letters, which
often seem like attempts to provide consistent explanations for
inconsistencies in the narrative, and/or what Tolkien decided on later
reflection must have been "what was really going on" even if it
doesn't reflect his state of mind at the time he wrote the story.



[1] I find myself thinking this so often that I begin to wonder if
it's time to take a break from the group.
-- 
---Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)-------
  "Then roll in confectioner's sugar." -- Last instruction in the
_Settlement Cookbook_'s recipe for Rum Balls

######

From: David Sulger <orius@webtv.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:50:43 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <8pjd29$59h$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <MPG.1423f796b48ffd4498b767@news.mindspring.com> <bnh-1009001737090001@ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.72.250.131
X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Sep 11 19:50:43 2000 GMT
X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98)
X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x51.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 166.72.250.131
X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDorius
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news.tele.dk!205.231.236.10!newspeer.monmouth.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27110

In article <bnh-1009001737090001@ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu>,
  bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink) wrote:
> In article <MPG.1423f796b48ffd4498b767@news.mindspring.com>,
>
> >
> > We're not told explicitly about Old Man Willow, s far as I can
> > recall, but I assume he's one of the Huorns gone bad.
>
> I'm not so sure if he's "gone bad."  What if he's just
> an ent who has a rather extreme interpretation of his
> original mission to protect the plants against the
> ravages of others*?  He certainly has a reason to oppose
> Hobbits--Merry tells in the chapter "The Old Forest" how
> "hobbits came and cut down hundreds of trees, and made a
> greatbonfire in the Forest."  >

I don't think Old Man Willow is an Ent, actually.  Tom Bombadil's words
seem to indicate a more Huornish nature.

Of course the hostility is understandable.  First, Numenoeans chop down
that huge forest stretching from Eriador to Enedwaith and beyond.  All
that's left is the Old Forst and Fangorn.  Then the eventual
descendants of these tree killers come and permanently seetle part of
this land, forming part of the kingdom of Arnor, and then later
Cardolan.  I don't think Old Man Willow was too sad about the Witch-
king wiping out Cardolan.  Then the Hobbits move in on the other side.
The Hobbits are into agriculture, and that pretty much requires the
removal of trees.    So a bit of paranoia on Old Man Willow's part is
understandable.  However, it's also a bit unnecessary, since I don't
think Tom Bombadil would like it too much if the Hobbits decided to
raze the Old Forest for a new shopping mall or something like that.  :)

Though it doesn't seem like the Hobbits went out of their way simply to
chop down trees and have a big bonfire for the hell of it.  My
impression was that the Old Forest went out of its way to threaten the
Hobbits, and they were just trying to put the forest in its place.

--Dave


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: kmarek@cybercash.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 20:39:08 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <8pjft8$91a$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi> <8pdmcu$s2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <uwBu5.447$v3.4326@uchinews> <SYKu5.1977$6i1.175858@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <MPG.14254b9ffacb8cfc98b77a@news.mindspring.com> <6TLu5.2014$6i1.179935@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.178.186.6
X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Sep 11 20:39:08 2000 GMT
X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.7 [en] (WinNT; I)
X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x70.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 204.178.186.6
X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDcroaker69
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27112

In article <6TLu5.2014$6i1.179935@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
  "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net> wrote:
> "Stan Brown" <brahms@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.14254b9ffacb8cfc98b77a@news.mindspring.com...
>
> > I don't think your interpretation is quite logical. All the
> > passage  means is that *some* of the Eagles might have been
> > Maiar.
>
> If we accept the passage at face value it would mean that some
> Eagles WERE Maiar.  In that it does not mention there being any
> other Eagles dwelling there, and that the Eagles as a whole acted
> just as these Maiar in Eagle form were directed to, it suggests
> that the Eagles of the First Age were in fact ALL Maiar.
>
> > It's like saying that because the Wizards appeared to be Men, all >
> Men were Wizards.
>
> Except that we have explicit statements of there being Men and
> Wizards as separate beings.  No such statements exist for the
> Eagles/Maiar formed Eagles.  If Manwe sent Maiar to dwell near
> Thangorodrim, keep watch of Melkor, and aid the Noldor in extreme
> circumstances... is there any question that this precisely
> describes Thorondor and his followers?
>
> > My own view is that, in the Third Age, some (or maybe even all)
> > of Tolkien's Eagles were far more intelligent than real-world
> > Eagles, and hence they spoke and understood language. I don't
> > think there's any need for Bilbo's or Gandalf's Eagles to be any
> > sort of supernatural spirit.
>
> Actually, the view I favor is that THOSE Eagles were in fact NOT
> spirits.... being instead a physical incarnate race DESCENDED from
> embodied spirits.  The original Maiar in Eagle form might well have
> returned to Aman, leaving their less powerful descendants to dwell
> in Middle Earth and make their own fates.
>
> Of course that goes against the 'Ainur cannot have children'
> principle... but then that principle already runs aground on the
> rock that is Luthien.
>
>

And Shelob if you accept Ungoliant as an Ainur

croaker


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
From: tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie)
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: dvp.cs.toronto.edu
Message-ID: <2000Sep11.175600.26525@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu>
Organization: CSLab, University of Toronto
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <uwBu5.447$v3.4326@uchinews> <39BB6C03.502100FC@helsinki.fi> <bnh-1009001857270001@ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu>
Date: 11 Sep 2000 21:56:00 GMT
Lines: 11
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!utnut!utcsri!cs.toronto.edu!tbarrie
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27194

In article <bnh-1009001857270001@ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu>,
Bruce N. Hietbrink <bnh@chem.ucla.edu> wrote:
>BTW, we probably should add the Ring and Turin's sword to
>the list of mysterious beings as semi-conscious inanimate objects.

Now I have this image of a groggy sword and ring trying to drag
themselves out of bed.

Regarding Turin's sword, isn't it entirely likely that Turin had
simply gone mad by the point he hears his sword talking to him?

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi> <8pdmcu$s2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <uwBu5.447$v3.4326@uchinews> <SYKu5.1977$6i1.175858@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <MPG.14254b9ffacb8cfc98b77a@news.mindspring.com> <6TLu5.2014$6i1.179935@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <5oTu5.297$vN2.39651@read2.inet.fi> <8ph27p$skj$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Lines: 19
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Message-ID: <xyev5.4252$M37.324928@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 00:13:17 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.223
X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net
X-Trace: bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 968717597 12.79.22.223 (Tue, 12 Sep 2000 00:13:17 GMT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 00:13:17 GMT
Organization: AT&T Worldnet
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.19!wnmasters2!bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27147

"Aris Katsaris" <katsaris@otenet.gr> wrote in message
news:8ph27p$skj$1@newssrv.otenet.gr...

> In short, Melian *has* to be unique. It's not a rock. It's a plot
> point.

Well, I agree with everything but this.  Why does she HAVE to be
unique?  Note that at the time JRRT was first creating Luthien's
ancestry he was also putting various other 'children of the gods'
into the mythology.  While he changed his mind about these and
explicitly wrote most of them out that was rather difficult to do
with the story of Luthien.

If Melian WERE uniquely gifted in this regard that would at least
tell us that Ungoliant was not of the Ainur... which then rather
opens the whole can of worms all over again.  :)

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <MPG.1423f796b48ffd4498b767@news.mindspring.com> <bnh-1009001737090001@ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu>
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Lines: 14
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Message-ID: <WAev5.4254$M37.326709@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 00:15:50 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.223
X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net
X-Trace: bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 968717750 12.79.22.223 (Tue, 12 Sep 2000 00:15:50 GMT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 00:15:50 GMT
Organization: AT&T Worldnet
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!feeder.qis.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.19!wnmasters2!bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27141

"Bruce N. Hietbrink" <bnh@chem.ucla.edu> wrote in message
news:bnh-1009001737090001@ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu...

> I'm not so sure if he's "gone bad."  What if he's just
> an ent who has a rather extreme interpretation of his
> original mission to protect the plants against the
> ravages of others*?

Treebeard attributes a 'darkness' to the Old Forest, and Old Man
Willow went after Tom Bombadil once too... who would seem unlikely
a threat to the trees.

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi> <8pdmcu$s2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <uwBu5.447$v3.4326@uchinews> <8pjard$2k1$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Lines: 24
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Message-ID: <hIev5.4260$M37.326881@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 00:23:41 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.223
X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net
X-Trace: bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 968718221 12.79.22.223 (Tue, 12 Sep 2000 00:23:41 GMT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 00:23:41 GMT
Organization: AT&T Worldnet
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.19!wnmasters2!bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27144

"David Sulger" <orius@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:8pjard$2k1$1@nnrp1.deja.com...

> I cannot for the life of me understand how some people could get
> so worked up over stuff like Balrog Wings, talking rings and
> multiple Thrains.

Heh.... having been involved in EACH of those issues I'd say that
people got 'worked up' not so much over the topics as the claims
of 'idiocy', 'the one True Word of Tolkien' and suchlike which in
some cases accompanied them.  They'd get equally 'worked up' by
such abuse when it had nothing to do with Tolkien, and on several
occasions have politely discussed the above topics when there were
no Orcs participating.

As such... the topics themselves are not the problem at all.  It
has sometimes been mistakenly reported that the 'War of the Wings'
began in 1997.... in fact it goes back years earlier, to the
first days of these NGs.  The late 1997 episode was just the first
time it really turned bloody.  Before that it was like any other
topic of disagreement, and I'd suggest that it has become so again.

######

Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net>
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi> <8pdmcu$s2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <uwBu5.447$v3.4326@uchinews> <SYKu5.1977$6i1.175858@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <MPG.14254b9ffacb8cfc98b77a@news.mindspring.com> <6TLu5.2014$6i1.179935@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <8pjbop$3o5$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Lines: 21
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400
Message-ID: <3Oev5.4264$M37.327565@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 00:29:51 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.223
X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net
X-Trace: bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 968718591 12.79.22.223 (Tue, 12 Sep 2000 00:29:51 GMT)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 00:29:51 GMT
Organization: AT&T Worldnet
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.19!wnmasters2!bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27137

"David Sulger" <orius@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:8pjbop$3o5$1@nnrp1.deja.com...

> The only thing I can think of there is that if an Ainu actually
> becomes a different being, then it can function fully as a
> similar being, including sexually, while it can't if it just
> takes the form as a disguise.

This is the resolution I prefer as well.... some of the Ainur
took 'full' physical incarnations and were thus able to produce
offspring - which were themselves incarnate creatures incapable of
assuming a spiritual form.

> This leaves an interesting question: could the Istari have
> fathered children?

I'd speculate yes... except perhaps for their advanced physical
age.

######

From: "Androg" <androg at mail dot com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <MPG.1423f796b48ffd4498b767@news.mindspring.com> <bnh-1009001737090001@ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu> <8pjd29$59h$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 12:09:39 +1000
Lines: 31
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200
NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com
X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com
Message-ID: <39bd82ca$1@casper.southcom.com.au>
X-Trace: 12 Sep 2000 01:11:38 GMT, delta.tavultesoft.com
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news-in.nibble.net!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.labyrinth.net.au!casper.southcom.com.au!delta.tavultesoft.com
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27167

David Sulger <orius@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:8pjd29$59h$1@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> Though it doesn't seem like the Hobbits went out of their way simply to
> chop down trees and have a big bonfire for the hell of it.  My
> impression was that the Old Forest went out of its way to threaten the
> Hobbits, and they were just trying to put the forest in its place.

In its place according to *their* view of things.

"As they listened, they began to understand the lives of the Forest, apart
from themselves, indeed to feel themselves as the strangers where all other
things were at home. Moving constantly in and out of his talk was Old Man
Willow, and Frodo learned now enough to content him, indeed more than
enough, for it was not comfortable lore. Tom's words laid bare the hearts of
trees and their thoughts, which were often dark and strange, and filled with
a hatred of things that go free upon the earth, gnawing, biting, breaking,
hacking, burning: destroyers and usurpers. It was not called the Old Forest
without reason, for it was indeed ancient, a survivor of vast forgotten
woods; and in it there lived yet, ageing no quicker than the hills, the
fathers of the fathers of trees, remembering the times when they were
lords."

--
Andróg

"Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncúthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescéne land,
eardgeard elfa, and ésa bliss."

######

From: "Henrik Larsen" <mycroft@get2net.dk>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 12:24:28 +0200
Organization: Tele Danmark Internet Cyberspace Launchpad
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <8pl07g$ag6$1@news.inet.tele.dk>
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi> <0mrprs06uhtjncfmnub1a8g4h7urgn9fds@4ax.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: krakintgw.krak.dk
X-Trace: news.inet.tele.dk 968754224 10758 193.89.85.252
X-Complaints-To: Department of Written Abuse <abuse@news.inet.tele.dk>
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!news.tele.dk!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27142

"LESDL" <LESDLrem@ix.netcom.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:0mrprs06uhtjncfmnub1a8g4h7urgn9fds@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 09 Sep 2000 00:50:02 +0300, Tamim <tamin.khawaja@helsinki.fi>
> squinted and tapped out:

>>Steuard Jensen wrote:

>>The beings in Moria, even older than Sauron.

> I don't think anyone's mentioned the many-tentacled
>creature in the pool of water by the Doors Of Durin, the
>moria-gate.

Ah yes, the Great Old One.
--
Henrik Larsen
I'm no son of Hercules but
you can visit my peplum site at
http://hjem.get2net.dk/henriklarsen/

######

From: David Sulger <orius@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:35:35 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <8plt1m$45d$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi> <8pdmcu$s2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <uwBu5.447$v3.4326@uchinews> <SYKu5.1977$6i1.175858@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <MPG.14254b9ffacb8cfc98b77a@news.mindspring.com> <6TLu5.2014$6i1.179935@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <8pjbop$3o5$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3Oev5.4264$M37.327565@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.72.250.9
X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Sep 12 18:35:35 2000 GMT
X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98)
X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x52.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 166.72.250.9
X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDorius
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.online.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27113

In article <3Oev5.4264$M37.327565@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
  "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net> wrote:
> "David Sulger" <orius@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:8pjbop$3o5$1@nnrp1.deja.com...
>

> > This leaves an interesting question: could the Istari have
> > fathered children?
>
> I'd speculate yes... except perhaps for their advanced physical
> age.
>
What if they were on Viagra?   :)

--Dave

Send e-mail to ds50.geo at yahoo.com


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: David Sulger <orius@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:52:22 GMT
Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy.
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <8plu0s$5hl$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi> <8pdmcu$s2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <uwBu5.447$v3.4326@uchinews> <8pjard$2k1$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <hIev5.4260$M37.326881@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.72.250.9
X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Sep 12 18:52:22 2000 GMT
X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98)
X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x54.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 166.72.250.9
X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDorius
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!ams-newsfeed.speedport.net!newsfeed.speedport.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27122

In article <hIev5.4260$M37.326881@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
  "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad@interactive.net> wrote:

> I'd say that people got 'worked up' not so much over the topics as
> the claims of 'idiocy', 'the one True Word of Tolkien' and suchlike
> which in some cases accompanied them.  They'd get equally 'worked up'
> by such abuse when it had nothing to do with Tolkien, and on several
> occasions have politely discussed the above topics when there were no
> Orcs participating.

Yes, I suppose I forgot to take that into account.  I find arguments
about "the Obe True Word" and "interpretation" to be very wearying
myself (and when a topic devolves into that, I usually bow out because
I don't feel like spending the next week or so reading the same posts
ad nauseam).  In most cases, I would say there _is_ no definitive text,
considering the amount of unfinished writings at Tolkien's death.
Canonicity really depends on which version of Tolkien's mythology on is
relying upon, and I've noticed in some of the flame wars that _this_
too can change depending on the topic being argued.  Also, I don't
automatically go by the most recent writings Tolkien made before he
died, because they may or may not reflect what he had in mind.  I doubt
that anyone can ever truly say they knew what Tolkien's intent was.

The only real exceptions to that I can think of are the Balrog Wing and
talking ring debates.  Those seem to be more of a question of whether
or not the relevant passages in LotR are meant to be read literally or
metaphorically.  Of course the problem there is once again
the "interpretation" argument.  From what I've read here about it,
there were also insulting passages about the reading comprehension of
those who were in disagreement.

--Dave

Send e-mail to ds50.geo at yahoo.com


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

######

From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue Shift)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien
Subject: Re: Mysterious Beings
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:28:13 -0700
Organization: Collective against Consensual Sanity
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <mlindanne-1209001828140001@c166.ppp.tsoft.com>
References: <NQcu5.372$v3.3539@uchinews> <39B95F0A.B0A52478@helsinki.fi> <8pdmcu$s2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <uwBu5.447$v3.4326@uchinews> <SYKu5.1977$6i1.175858@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <MPG.14254b9ffacb8cfc98b77a@news.mindspring.com> <6TLu5.2014$6i1.179935@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <8pjbop$3o5$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3Oev5.4264$M37.327565@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <8plt1m$45d$1@nnrp1.deja.com>
X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com
X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow.
X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields.
X-Should-not: You're not allowed.
X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back.
X-Ray-Specs: Off.
X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo
X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des
Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!c166.ppp.tsoft.com!user
Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27249

/ > > This leaves an interesting question: could the Istari have
/ > > fathered children?
/ >
/ > I'd speculate yes... except perhaps for their advanced physical
/ > age.
/ >
/ What if they were on Viagra?   :)

I was going to mention the staffs of the wizards and try to tie that in to
"was Saruman a pansy," but then I thought better of it.

=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
Sign up for WASHINGTON MUTUAL BANK's special
We Rob You While You Sleep Service TODAY!
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity       v0.123
pretty pretty <blink>    http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/
All new and improved web pages!   Bookmark yours today!
:)-free zone. </blink>        Elect LUM World Dictator!