From: shadowwalker8015@aol.com (Shadowwalker8015) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 08 Sep 2000 19:09:12 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26995 Hi, I am new to this group, so try not to flame me too much :P In any case, I have recently read the continuation of Lord of the Rings. Thats right, a real sequel. It takes place 500 years after the original events and concerns the 9 rings. You see, the 9 rings have survived the destruction of their master but ther power has been warped. Now, a man is travelling all over middle earth to collect the 9 and use them himself. The characters in the book travel into the depth of Moria, the far East and the far South. The reason these books have not been seen in the US is because they were written by a russian author Nik Perumov and no translation has been made. So there! Deathlord ###### From: "DaRkTemplar" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 02:01:09 +0100 Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.65.231.84 X-Trace: venus.telepac.pt 968461181 9184 194.65.231.84 (9 Sep 2000 00:59:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@mail.telepac.pt NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Sep 2000 00:59:41 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!warm.news.pipex.net!pipex!brown.telepac.pt!news.telepac.pt!venus.telepac.pt!news.telepac.pt!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26988 "Shadowwalker8015" wrote in message news:20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com... > Hi, I am new to this group, so try not to flame me too much :P > > In any case, I have recently read the continuation of Lord of the Rings. Thats > right, a real sequel. It takes place 500 years after the original events and > concerns the 9 rings. You see, the 9 rings have survived the destruction of > their master but ther power has been warped. Now, a man is travelling all over > middle earth to collect the 9 and use them himself. The characters in the book > travel into the depth of Moria, the far East and the far South. The reason > these books have not been seen in the US is because they were written by a > russian author Nik Perumov and no translation has been made. So there! > > Deathlord hum... that book might be not bad but IMHO I think no one should continue LotR or any of Tolkien's works because only he could make it the right way and... they are their works, no one has the right to change and/or continue them. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 23:15:18 -0400 Lines: 20 Message-ID: <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: AYdCk3YjIuIUPT3vO/esG/bkbbd6kagt+Fi1YaAJJ9U= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Sep 2000 03:16:23 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26974 DaRkTemplar wrote: > hum... that book might be not bad but IMHO I think no one should continue > LotR or any of Tolkien's works because only he could make it the right way I have to agree. Tolkien's qualifications were unique. > and... > they are their works, no one has the right to change and/or continue > them. Indeed. I wonder if it's even legal to create stories based on Middle-Earth without the Estate's permission. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue Shift) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 21:05:17 -0700 Organization: Collective against Consensual Sanity Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.via.net!news.he.net!sn-xit-09!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!c179.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27007 / > they are their works, no one has the right to change and/or continue / > them. In your opinion. Legally, / Indeed. I wonder if it's even legal to create stories based on / Middle-Earth without the Estate's permission. YES! YES! YES! YES! That's the whole point of copyrights in the USA, to enrich society with new expression. Letting someone make a profit while doing so is the means, not the ends. You cannot copyright an idea, only an expression of the idea. And if the idea has only possible expression, the expression is not copyrightable. =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Sign up for WASHINGTON MUTUAL BANK's special We Rob You While You Sleep Service TODAY! =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 pretty pretty http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/ All new and improved web pages! Bookmark yours today! :)-free zone. Elect LUM World Dictator! ###### From: Tom Sherlock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 04:13:56 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 55 Message-ID: <8pcddp$hti$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.247.50.190 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Sep 09 04:13:56 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.72 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x51.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 165.247.50.190 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtomsherlock Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26986 In article <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: > DaRkTemplar wrote: > > I think no one should continue > > LotR or any of Tolkien's works because only he could make it the right way > > I have to agree. Tolkien's qualifications were unique. > > > and... > > they are their works, no one has the right to change and/or continue > > them. > > Indeed. I wonder if it's even legal to create stories based on > Middle-Earth without the Estate's permission. > I wd have to disagree. I believe that Tolkien´s opus, Tolkien´s mythology has become greater than the author. I believe that many of the stories, or events, hinted at during the War of The Ring could further elaborated upon. Expanding on Tolkien´s work would create a whole new sub-genre of fantasy fiction; perhaps it could be elevated to a new form of literature: the Middle-Earth Cycle. I wd even daresay that, J.R.R. Tolkien would be flattered if others choose to expand his mythology. After all, what good is a mythology if it is only written/created by one person. Generally, a mythology is a reflection of the culture whence it sprung, thereby requiring multiple voices to give it life. In fact Tolkien approached Middle-Earth not as it's creator, but rather as linguistic and cultural archaeologist and a historian. This approach leaves the door open for other "historians", other "linguists". Now we wouldn't want just ANYONE expanding the Middle-Earth mythology, we would probably prefer talented writers, experienced writers, and/or students well steeped in the lore of Middle-Earth and the Framework established by Eru. This writer would have quite a veritable library from which to research his/her story before writing it. This writer wd have to be chosen by a board consisting of writers to ensure the quality of the story, Middle-Earth specialists to ensure the authenticity and likelihood of the story and, of course, a representative from the Tolkien Estate to ensure that J.R.R.'s legacy and copyrights are preserved. Just as each generation bring forth a new Bond, James Bond, so too could we have one official Middle-Earth writer to further investigate the events of that long-ago period and to bring to light some of the truths and lessons of the First, Second and Third Ages. Tom Sherlock Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: shadowwalker8015@aol.com (Shadowwalker8015) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Lines: 3 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 09 Sep 2000 17:51:32 GMT References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000909135132.08264.00000384@ng-mf1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!spamz.news.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27060 Ok, the author's name is Nik Perumov and the title of the series isThe Dark Ring. The first book's name is the Elven Blade, the second is the Dark Spear and the third is Henna's Adamant. ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> <8pcddp$hti$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Lines: 42 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net> Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 20:28:41 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.44.245 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 968523971 212.151.44.245 (Sat, 09 Sep 2000 20:26:11 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 20:26:11 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27077 Tom Sherlock hath written: > jsolinas@erols.com wrote: [snip] >> Indeed. I wonder if it's even legal to create stories based on >> Middle-Earth without the Estate's permission. >> > >I wd have to disagree. I believe that Tolkien´s opus, Tolkien´s >mythology has become greater than the author. I believe that many of the >stories, or events, hinted at during the War of The Ring could further >elaborated upon. Expanding on Tolkien´s work would create a whole new >sub-genre of fantasy fiction; perhaps it could be elevated to a new form >of literature: the Middle-Earth Cycle. Though I am not a legal expert, I suspect you are wrong and that anyone outisde the lawless Russia who published a story using Tolkien's characters and Tolkien's world would get into considerable trouble >I wd even daresay that, J.R.R. Tolkien would be flattered if others >choose to expand his mythology. I am quite certain that Tolkien would have been extremely annoyed. >After all, what good is a mythology if >it is only written/created by one person. Generally, a mythology is a >reflection of the culture whence it sprung, thereby requiring multiple >voices to give it life. In fact Tolkien approached Middle-Earth not as >it's creator, but rather as linguistic and cultural archaeologist and a >historian. This approach leaves the door open for other "historians", >other "linguists". That was the conceit he used, but of course he created his world and would have been very upset if anyone else had usurped it. After all, he was very offended at the mere borrowing of his names without permission, for example on the occasion when a hydrofoil to Jersey was named "Shadowfax". Öjevind ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <20000909135132.08264.00000384@ng-mf1.aol.com> Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Lines: 13 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 20:30:17 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.44.245 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 968524066 212.151.44.245 (Sat, 09 Sep 2000 20:27:46 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 20:27:46 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27079 Shadowwalker8015 hath written: >Ok, the author's name is Nik Perumov and the title of the series isThe Dark >Ring. The first book's name is the Elven Blade, the second is the Dark Spear >and the third is Henna's Adamant. Those titles do not seem very Tolkienesque, do they? They reek of David Eddings or Terry Brooks or any number of other fantasy hacks. Öjevind ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 X-Nntp-Posting-Host: dvp.cs.toronto.edu Message-ID: <2000Sep9.165333.22527@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Organization: CSLab, University of Toronto References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> Date: 9 Sep 2000 20:53:33 GMT Lines: 14 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!utnut!utcsri!cs.toronto.edu!tbarrie Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27080 In article <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com>, Shadowwalker8015 wrote: >In any case, I have recently read the continuation of Lord of the Rings. Thats >right, a real sequel. I expect a lot of people would question whether this work constitutes a "real" sequel, seeing as hot it wasn't written by Tolkien. >The reason these books have not been seen in the US is because they were >written by a russian author Nik Perumov and no translation has been made. A quick web search turned up a translation of one chapter at www.lionking.org/~mohatu/perumov.htm I'll let people know if I find anything else. ###### From: "Androg" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> <8pcddp$hti$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net> Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 16:06:33 +1000 Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com Message-ID: <39bb1747@casper.southcom.com.au> X-Trace: 10 Sep 2000 05:08:23 GMT, delta.tavultesoft.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.labyrinth.net.au!casper.southcom.com.au!delta.tavultesoft.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27061 Öjevind Lång wrote in message news:7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net... > Tom Sherlock hath written: > > >I wd even daresay that, J.R.R. Tolkien would be flattered if others > >choose to expand his mythology. > > I am quite certain that Tolkien would have been extremely annoyed. From Letters #130 to Milton Waldman: "Do not luagh! But once upon a time (my crest has long since fallen) I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story--the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the earth, the lesser drawing splendour from the vast backcloths--which I could dedicate simply to: to England; my country. ... ... I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama." From that one would get the idea that originally at least Tolkien envisaged others also possibly in the future creating this mythology with him. -- Andróg "Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncúthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescéne land, eardgeard elfa, and ésa bliss." ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue Shift) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 04:08:53 -0700 Organization: Collective against Consensual Sanity Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> <8pcddp$hti$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net> <39bb1747@casper.southcom.com.au> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!feeder.via.net!news.he.net!sn-xit-09!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!c154.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27085 / In point of fact he was wrong about the legal situation, but his Oh, forget. You'll never accept the truth. The truth will set you free. =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Sign up for WASHINGTON MUTUAL BANK's special We Rob You While You Sleep Service TODAY! =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 pretty pretty http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/ All new and improved web pages! Bookmark yours today! :)-free zone. Elect LUM World Dictator! ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> <8pcddp$hti$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net> <39bb1747@casper.southcom.com.au> Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Lines: 29 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:03:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.27.104 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 968587416 12.79.27.104 (Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:03:36 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:03:36 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters2!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27049 "Androg" wrote in message news:39bb1747@casper.southcom.com.au... > From that one would get the idea that originally at least Tolkien > envisaged others also possibly in the future creating this > mythology with him. One might take it that way... or we could look at JRRT's direct statement on the question; "I send you this enclosed impertinent contribution to my troubles. I do not know what the legal position is, I suppose that since one cannot claim property in inventing proper names, there is no legal obstacle to this young ass publishing his sequel, if he could find any publisher, either respectable or disreputable, who would accept such tripe. I have merely informed him that I have forwarded his letter and samples to you. I think that a suitable letter from Allen & Unwin might be more effective than one from me. I once had a similar proposal couched in the most obsequious terms, from a young woman, and when I replied in the negative, I received a most vituperative letter." Letters #292 In point of fact he was wrong about the legal situation, but his attitude towards unauthorized mucking in his world is fairly clear. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> <8pcddp$hti$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net> <39bb1747@casper.southcom.com.au> Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <39Lu5.1982$6i1.177729@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:29:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.27.104 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 968588991 12.79.27.104 (Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:29:51 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:29:51 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.19!wnmasters2!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27039 "China Blue Shift" wrote in message news:mlindanne-1009000408540001@c154.ppp.tsoft.com... >> In point of fact he was wrong about the legal situation, but his > Oh, forget. You'll never accept the truth. Eh? The 'truth' of this seems fairly clear and obvious; 1: Tolkien was NOT in favor of other people writing stories in his world. He said so. Rather forcefully. 2: It is NOT legal (in most countries) for just anyone to publish stories set in Middle Earth. This is plainly and demonstrably true in that all efforts to do so have been successfully squashed. So... don't give me nonsense about 'not accepting the truth'. I may disagree with your opinion on what the situation SHOULD be, but there is no question that I'm firmly planted on the side of 'truth' for the situation that IS. ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue Shift) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 06:01:57 -0700 Organization: Collective against Consensual Sanity Lines: 81 Message-ID: References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> <8pcddp$hti$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net> <39bb1747@casper.southcom.com.au> <39Lu5.1982$6i1.177729@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!sn-xit-09!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!c161.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27084 / 2: It is NOT legal (in most countries) for just anyone to publish / stories set in Middle Earth. This is plainly and demonstrably true / in that all efforts to do so have been successfully squashed. United States Copyright Office IDEAS, METHODS, OR SYSTEMS WHAT IS NOT PROTECTED BY COPYRIGHT Ideas, Methods, or Systems are not subject to copyright protection. Copyright protection, therefore, is not available for: ideas or procedures for doing, making, or building things; scientific or technical methods or discoveries; business operations or procedures; mathematical principles; formulas, algorithms; or any other concept, process, or method of operation. Section 102 of the copyright law, title 17, United States Code, clearly expresses this principle: "In no case does copyright protection for an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work." Inventions are subject matter for patents, not copyrights. Under certain circumstances it may be possible to secure patent protection for an invention or an inventive design for an article of manufacture. You can obtain general information about the standards and conditions of the patent laws by writing to the Commissioner of Patents and Trademarks, Washington, D.C. 20231, or you may call (703) 557-INFO. WHAT IS PROTECTED BY COPYRIGHT Copyright protection extends to a description, explanation, or illustration of an idea or system, assuming that the requirements of the copyright law are met. Copyright in such a case protects the particular literary or pictorial expression chosen by the author. However, it gives the copyright owner no exclusive rights in the idea, method, or system involved. Suppose, for example, that an author writes a book explaining a new system for food processing. The copyright in the book, which comes into effect at the moment the work is fixed in a tangible form, will prevent others from publishing the text and illustrations describing the author's ideas for machinery, processes, and merchandising methods. However, it will not give the author any rights against others who adopt the ideas for commercial purposes, or who develop or use the machinery, processes, or methods described in the book. NO COMPARATIVE SEARCHES The Copyright Office ordinarily does not compare deposit copies or check registration records to determine whether works submitted for registration are similar to any material for which a registration of a copyright claim has already been made. The records of the Copyright Office may contain any number of registrations for works describing or illustrating the same idea. ***Last update 6/4/93 (jt)*** THE TEXT ABOVE IS PUBLIC DOMAIN MATERIAL AUTHORED BY AN AGENCY OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT AND NOT COPYRIGHTED BY THIS WEBSITE. To locate the original material (which may have been updated) =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Sign up for WASHINGTON MUTUAL BANK's special We Rob You While You Sleep Service TODAY! =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 pretty pretty http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/ All new and improved web pages! Bookmark yours today! :)-free zone. Elect LUM World Dictator! ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> <8pcddp$hti$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net> <39bb1747@casper.southcom.com.au> <39Lu5.1982$6i1.177729@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Lines: 34 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 18:07:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.73.190 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 968609254 12.78.73.190 (Sun, 10 Sep 2000 18:07:34 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 18:07:34 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!204.127.161.3!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters2!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27136 "China Blue Shift" wrote in message news:mlindanne-1009000601570001@c161.ppp.tsoft.com... >> 2: It is NOT legal (in most countries) for just anyone to >> publish stories set in Middle Earth. This is plainly and >> demonstrably true in that all efforts to do so have been >> successfully squashed. Let's go over this again. People have TRIED to publish stories in Middle Earth. They have been prevented from doing so. When Gary Gygax put a bunch of Middle Earth elements in his D&D roleplaying game he got sued... and had to change them. Fan fiction web-sites devoted to just about any copyright material are regularly shut down. Movies set in Middle Earth cannot be made by just anyone... only the people holding the rights to do so - as evidenced by legal battles over THAT issue. I don't need to look up the specific laws and statues which prevent unauthorized playing in the worlds of others... it's a plain and easily observable fact that such legal preventions DO exist. No matter how many quotations you can find which might be taken to indicate that the Sun is black I'm still gonna have to go with observed reality. And so also with the readily observable legal protections (whether they be copyrights, patents, trademarks, or what have you) which keep people from just setting up shop in a fictional world created by someone else. ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue Shift) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:23:32 -0700 Organization: Collective against Consensual Sanity Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> <8pcddp$hti$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net> <39bb1747@casper.southcom.com.au> <39Lu5.1982$6i1.177729@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-fra.pop.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.he.net!sn-xit-09!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!c188.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27197 / Let's go over this again. People have TRIED to publish stories in / Middle Earth. They have been prevented from doing so. When Gary / Gygax put a bunch of Middle Earth elements in his D&D roleplaying / game he got sued... and had to change them. Fan fiction web-sites A business is not story. Trademarks deal with businesses not stories. You're confusing different things. / devoted to just about any copyright material are regularly shut / down. Movies set in Middle Earth cannot be made by just anyone... Well, duh. Any derivation of copyrighted expression. / only the people holding the rights to do so - as evidenced by legal / battles over THAT issue. A movie derived from a book is not a new expression. Terry Brooks's story were an obvious reworking of the _ideas_ with a new expression. They got his own copyright. / I don't need to look up the specific laws and statues which / prevent unauthorized playing in the worlds of others... it's a Especially since in the USA the opposite is true. / plain and easily observable fact that such legal preventions DO / exist. I can make up any story about Pocohantas I want. I only have problems if use images, dialog, or any other derivations of Disney copyrighted expression. / No matter how many quotations you can find which might be taken / to indicate that the Sun is black I'm still gonna have to go with Okay, now I understand. You don't want to know the truth. =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Sign up for WASHINGTON MUTUAL BANK's special We Rob You While You Sleep Service TODAY! =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 pretty pretty http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/ All new and improved web pages! Bookmark yours today! :)-free zone. Elect LUM World Dictator! ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> <8pcddp$hti$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net> <39bb1747@casper.southcom.com.au> <39Lu5.1982$6i1.177729@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Lines: 308 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <_nSu5.7533$Fl2.63474@nntpserver.swip.net> Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 22:45:32 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.35.191 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 968618618 212.151.35.191 (Sun, 10 Sep 2000 22:43:38 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 22:43:38 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27187 Conrad Dunkerson hath written: [snip] > >Let's go over this again. People have TRIED to publish stories in >Middle Earth. They have been prevented from doing so. When Gary >Gygax put a bunch of Middle Earth elements in his D&D roleplaying >game he got sued... and had to change them. Fan fiction web-sites >devoted to just about any copyright material are regularly shut >down. Movies set in Middle Earth cannot be made by just anyone... >only the people holding the rights to do so - as evidenced by legal >battles over THAT issue. Prhaps the following excerpt may be of interest. It comes from http://www.templeton.com/brad/copymyths.html. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- 10 Big Myths about copyright explained An attempt to answer common myths about copyright seen on the net and cover issues related to copyright and USENET/Internet publication. - by Brad Templeton Note that this is an essay about copyright myths. It assumes you know at least what copyright is -- basically the legal exclusive right of the author of a creative work to control the copying of that work. If you didn't know that, check out my own brief introduction to copyright for more information. 1) "If it doesn't have a copyright notice, it's not copyrighted." This was true in the past, but today almost all major nations follow the Berne copyright convention. For example, in the USA, almost everything created privately and originally after April 1, 1989 is copyrighted and protected whether it has a notice or not. The default you should assume for other people's works is that they are copyrighted and may not be copied unless you know otherwise. There are some old works that lost protection without notice, but frankly you should not risk it unless you know for sure. It is true that a notice strengthens the protection, by warning people, and by allowing one to get more and different damages, but it is not necessary. If it looks copyrighted, you should assume it is. This applies to pictures, too. You may not scan pictures from magazines and post them to the net, and if you come upon something unknown, you shouldn't post that either. The correct form for a notice is: "Copyright [dates] by [author/owner]" You can use C in a circle © instead of "Copyright" but "(C)" has never been given legal force. The phrase "All Rights Reserved" used to be required in some nations but is now not needed. 2) "If I don't charge for it, it's not a violation." False. Whether you charge can affect the damages awarded in court, but that's essentially the only difference. It's still a violation if you give it away -- and there can still be heavy damages if you hurt the commercial value of the property. 3) "If it's posted to Usenet it's in the public domain." False. Nothing modern is in the public domain anymore unless the owner explicitly puts it in the public domain(*). Explicitly, as in you have a note from the author/owner saying, "I grant this to the public domain." Those exact words or words very much like them. Some argue that posting to Usenet implicitly grants permission to everybody to copy the posting within fairly wide bounds, and others feel that Usenet is an automatic store and forward network where all the thousands of copies made are done at the command (rather than the consent) of the poster. This is a matter of some debate, but even if the former is true (and in this writer's opinion we should all pray it isn't true) it simply would suggest posters are implicitly granting permissions "for the sort of copying one might expect when one posts to Usenet" and in no case is this a placement of material into the public domain. It is important to remember that when it comes to the law, computers never make copies, only human beings make copies. Computers are given commands, not permission. Only people can be given permission. Furthermore it is very difficult for an implicit licence to supersede an explicitly stated licence that the copier was aware of. Note that all this assumes the poster had the right to post the item in the first place. If the poster didn't, then all the copies are pirated, and no implied licence or theoretical reduction of the copyright can take place. (*) Copyrights can expire after a long time, putting something into the public domain, and there are some fine points on this issue regarding older copyright law versions. However, none of this applies to an original article posted to USENET. Note that granting something to the public domain is a complete abandonment of all rights. You can't make something "PD for non-commercial use." If your work is PD, other people can even modify one byte and put their name on it. 4) "My posting was just fair use!" See other notes on fair use for a detailed answer, but bear the following in mind: The "fair use" exemption to copyright law was created to allow things such as commentary, parody, news reporting, research and education about copyrighted works without the permission of the author. That's important so that copyright law doesn't block your freedom to express your own works -- only the ability to express other people's. Intent, and damage to the commercial value of the work are important considerations. Are you reproducing an article from the New York Times because you needed to in order to criticise the quality of the New York Times, or because you couldn't find time to write your own story, or didn't want your readers to have to pay for the New York Times web site? The first is probably fair use, the others probably aren't. Fair use is almost always a short excerpt and almost always attributed. (One should not use more of the work than is necessary to make the commentary.) It should not harm the commercial value of the work -- in the sense of people no longer needing to buy it (which is another reason why reproduction of the entire work is generally forbidden.) Note that most inclusion of text in Usenet followups is for commentary and reply, and it doesn't damage the commercial value of the original posting (if it has any) and as such it is fair use. Fair use isn't an exact doctrine, either. The court decides if the right to comment overrides the copyright on an individual basis in each case. There have been cases that go beyond the bounds of what I say above, but in general they don't apply to the typical net misclaim of fair use. It's a risky defence to attempt. Facts and ideas can't be copyrighted, but their expression and structure can. You can always write the facts in your own words. See the DMCA alert for recent changes in the law. 5) "If you don't defend your copyright you lose it." -- "Somebody has that name copyrighted!" False. Copyright is effectively never lost these days, unless explicitly given away. You also can't "copyright a name" or anything short like that, such as almost all titles. You may be thinking of trade marks, which apply to names, and can be weakened or lost if not defended. You generally trademark terms by using them to refer to your brand of a generic type of product or service. Like an "Apple" computer. Apple Computer "owns" that word applied to computers, even though it is also an ordinary word. Apple Records owns it when applied to music. Neither owns the word on its own, only in context, and owning a mark doesn't mean complete control -- see a more detailed treatise on this law for details. You can't use somebody else's trademark in a way that would unfairly hurt the value of the mark, or in a way that might make people confuse you with the real owner of the mark, or which might allow you to profit from the mark's good name. For example, if I were giving advice on music videos, I would be very wary of trying to label my works with a name like "mtv." :-) 6) "If I make up my own stories, but base them on another work, my new work belongs to me." False. Copyright law is quite explicit that the making of what are called "derivative works" -- works based or derived from another copyrighted work -- is the exclusive province of the owner of the original work. This is true even though the making of these new works is a highly creative process. If you write a story using settings or characters from somebody else's work, you need that author's permission. Yes, that means almost all "fan fiction" is a copyright violation. If you want to write a story about Jim Kirk and Mr. Spock, you need Paramount's permission, plain and simple. Now, as it turns out, many, but not all holders of popular copyrights turn a blind eye to "fan fiction" or even subtly encourage it because it helps them. Make no mistake, however, that it is entirely up to them whether to do that. There is one major exception -- parody. The fair use provision says that if you want to make fun of something like Star Trek, you don't need their permission to include Mr. Spock. This is not a loophole; you can't just take a non-parody and claim it is one on a technicality. The way "fair use" works is you get sued for copyright infringement, and you admit you did infringe, but that your infringement was a fair use. A subjective judgment is then made. 7) "They can't get me, defendants in court have powerful rights!" Copyright law is mostly civil law. If you violate copyright you would usually get sued, not be charged with a crime. "Innocent until proven guilty" is a principle of criminal law, as is "proof beyond a reasonable doubt." Sorry, but in copyright suits, these don't apply the same way or at all. It's mostly which side and set of evidence the judge or jury accepts or believes more, though the rules vary based on the type of infringement. In civil cases you can even be made to testify against your own interests. 8) "Oh, so copyright violation isn't a crime or anything?" Actually, recently in the USA commercial copyright violation involving more than 10 copies and value over $2500 was made a felony. So watch out. (At least you get the protections of criminal law.) On the other hand, don't think you're going to get people thrown in jail for posting your E-mail. The courts have much better things to do. This is a fairly new, untested statute. In one case an operator of a pirate BBS that didn't charge was acquited because he didn't charge, but congress amended the law to cover that. 9) "It doesn't hurt anybody -- in fact it's free advertising." It's up to the owner to decide if they want the free ads or not. If they want them, they will be sure to contact you. Don't rationalize whether it hurts the owner or not, ask them. Usually that's not too hard to do. Time past, ClariNet published the very funny Dave Barry column to a large and appreciative Usenet audience for a fee, but some person didn't ask, and forwarded it to a mailing list, got caught, and the newspaper chain that employs Dave Barry pulled the column from the net, pissing off everybody who enjoyed it. Even if you can't think of how the author or owner gets hurt, think about the fact that piracy on the net hurts everybody who wants a chance to use this wonderful new technology to do more than read other people's flamewars. 10) "They e-mailed me a copy, so I can post it." To have a copy is not to have the copyright. All the E-mail you write is copyrighted. However, E-mail is not, unless previously agreed, secret. So you can certainly report on what E-mail you are sent, and reveal what it says. You can even quote parts of it to demonstrate. Frankly, somebody who sues over an ordinary message would almost surely get no damages, because the message has no commercial value, but if you want to stay strictly in the law, you should ask first. On the other hand, don't go nuts if somebody posts E-mail you sent them. If it was an ordinary non-secret personal letter of minimal commercial value with no copyright notice (like 99.9% of all E-mail), you probably won't get any damages if you sue them. Note as well that, the law aside, keeping private correspondence private is a courtesy one should usually honour. 11)"So I can't ever reproduce anything?" Myth #11 (I didn't want to change the now-famous title of this article) is actually one sometimes generated in response to this list of 10 myths. No, copyright isn't an iron-clad lock on what can be published. Indeed, by many arguments, by providing reward to authors, it encourages them to not just allow, but fund the publication and distribution of works so that they reach far more people than they would if they were free or unprotected -- and unpromoted. However, it must be remembered that copyright has two main purposes, namely the protection of the author's right to obtain commercial benefit from valuable work, and more recently the protection of the author's general right to control how a work is used. While copyright law makes it technically illegal to reproduce almost any new creative work (other than under fair use) without permission, if the work is unregistered and has no real commercial value, it gets very little protection. The author in this case can sue for an injunction against the publication, actual damages from a violation, and possibly court costs. Actual damages means actual money potentially lost by the author due to publication, plus any money gained by the defendant. But if a work has no commercial value, such as a typical E-mail message or conversational USENET posting, the actual damages will be zero. Only the most vindictive (and rich) author would sue when no damages are possible, and the courts don't look kindly on vindictive plaintiffs, unless the defendants are even more vindictive. The author's right to control what is done with a work, however, has some validity, even if it has no commercial value. If you feel you need to violate a copyright "because you can get away with it because the work has no value" you should ask yourself why you're doing it. In general, respecting the rights of creators to control their creations is a principle many advocate adhering to. In addition, while more often than not people claim a "fair use" copying incorrectly, fair use is a valid concept necessary to allow the criticism of copyrighted works and their creators through examples. But please read more about it before you do it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- In Summary These days, almost all things are copyrighted the moment they are written, and no copyright notice is required. Copyright is still violated whether you charged money or not, only damages are affected by that. Postings to the net are not granted to the public domain, and don't grant you any permission to do further copying except perhaps the sort of copying the poster might have expected in the ordinary flow of the net. Fair use is a complex doctrine meant to allow certain valuable social purposes. Ask yourself why you are republishing what you are posting and why you couldn't have just rewritten it in your own words. Copyright is not lost because you don't defend it; that's a concept from trademark law. The ownership of names is also from trademark law, so don't say somebody has a name copyrighted. Fan fiction and other work derived from copyrighted works is a copyright violation. Copyright law is mostly civil law where the special rights of criminal defendants you hear so much about don't apply. Watch out, however, as new laws are moving copyright violation into the criminal realm. Don't rationalize that you are helping the copyright holder; often it's not that hard to ask permission. Posting E-mail is technically a violation, but revealing facts from E-mail you got isn't, and for almost all typical E-mail, nobody could wring any damages from you for posting it. The law doesn't do much to protect works with no commercial value. DMCA Alert! Copyright law was recently amended by the Digital Millennium Copyright Act which changed net copyright in many ways. In particular, it put all sorts of legal strength behind copy-protection systems, even limiting in some views some fair use rights. The DMCA also changed the liability outlook for ISPs in major ways. Linking Might it be a violation just to link to a web page? That's not a myth, it's undecided, but I have written some discussion of linking rights issues. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Permission is granted to freely copy (unmodified) this document (or rather its most up to date version from http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html) in non-webpage electronic form, or in print in schools and to small groups. On the WWW, however, you must link here rather than put up your own page. If you had not seen a notice like this on the document, you would have to assume you did not have permission to copy it. This document is still protected by you-know-what even though it has no copyright notice. Please don't send mail asking me if you can link here -- you can do so, without asking or telling me. ------------------------------------- Öjevind ###### From: Tom Sherlock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 01:19:20 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 54 Message-ID: <8phbub$pqb$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> <8pcddp$hti$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.247.50.89 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Sep 11 01:19:20 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.72 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x63.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 165.247.50.89 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtomsherlock Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27130 In article <7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net>, "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > Tom Sherlock hath written: > > > jsolinas@erols.com wrote: > > [snip] > > >> Indeed. I wonder if it's even legal to create stories based on > >> Middle-Earth without the Estate's permission. > >> > > > >I wd have to disagree. I believe that Tolkien´s opus, Tolkien´s > >mythology has become greater than the author...Expanding on Tolkien´s > >work would create a whole new sub-genre of fantasy fiction > > Though I am not a legal expert, I suspect you are wrong and that anyone > outisde the lawless Russia who published a story using Tolkien's > characters > and Tolkien's world would get into considerable trouble > I don't see the connection between yr comment above and mine above that. I make no reference to legality in the above quote. > >I wd even daresay that, J.R.R. Tolkien would be flattered if others > >choose to expand his mythology. > > I am quite certain that Tolkien would have been extremely annoyed. Öjevind, since you and I are proposing too extreme positions, I then suggest, that only those the worked closely with Tolkien and his family wd be able to be truly certain of his reaction. > > > In fact Tolkien approached Middle-Earth not as > >it's creator, but rather as linguistic and cultural archaeologist and > >a historian. This approach leaves the door open for other. > >"historians",other "linguists". > > That was the conceit he used, but of course he created his world and > would have been very upset if anyone else had usurped it. After all, he > was very offended at the mere borrowing of his names without > permission, for example on the occasion when a hydrofoil to Jersey was > named "Shadowfax". > You example is different from what I had suggested in two respects: 1. in my original posting I mentioned that participation of the Tolkien state as a requirement. By implication this means their approval. 2. Naming a hydrofoil after a character from Middle-Earth is very different from trying expand and extend Tolkien's work through additional short stories or novels or poems or songs,etc. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: n_aksman@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 07:40:54 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 52 Message-ID: <8pi2a3$iqh$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.44.128.213 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Sep 11 07:40:54 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x71.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 212.44.128.213 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDn_aksman Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27118 > In any case, I have recently read the continuation of Lord of the Rings. Thats > right, a real sequel. I've read this book and I wouldn't call it a sequel in any way. IMHO, it's a tasteless hack. The author just uses MiddleEarth, hobbits, elves and other Tolkien names to create a mediocre fantasy a la Terry Brooks which has nothing to do with Tolkien ideas and values. In short, he overturnes all this Good-vs-Evil thing and proposes a 3rd force: a balance. It's more important to keep a balance than to fight evil. Fighting evil or good too hard can break the balance. And besides, those who are considered evil can do good, and vice versa, and that's why it's wrong to paint somebody in one color. By the way, it's quite an interesing topic by itself. He writes a lot from the point of view of the Men of the East, and orcs, who are persecuted by Gondorians etc. And he's very arrogant about Tolkien: he says that Tolkien didn't see the truth and that painting the world in black and white is wrong, grey is much more sophisticated and that so called Good does evil things all the time. And he misses the whole message of LotR by a wide margin - that the Good cannot be achieved by the evil means. That's the whole point of the Frodo's quest. When good people do evil things, they do Evil and they became evil people, it doesn't mean that Good itself is evil and there's no such thing as Good at all. And the great thing that Tolkien did is that he made us see clearly what's good and what's evil, in our confused times. And now this Perumov guy comes and mixes it all up and calls himself smart. Sorry, Nik Perumov just makes me very angry. His books would be a passable fantasy (there's a lot of similar sword and sorcery stuff around) if he weren't using Tolkien world to get himself popular. And because his books are easier to digest then Tolkien's, there's a lot of young people in Russia who've read him but never read Tolkien, or who think that Perumov is "cooler" than Tolkien because in his world evil and good are mixed, because his hobbits really kick ass and kill bad guys by a thousand, and because his orcs are pretty nice, if somewhat rough, fellows who are just misunderstood. By the way, Nik Perumov lives in States now, he works there as a microbiologist and writes books in his spare time. I've read an interview with him where he said that he moved to States to work because his books didn't sell good enough to provide for his family. Well, I was much, much relieved about that. Natalya Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> <8pcddp$hti$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net> <8phbub$pqb$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Lines: 114 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:47:06 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.111.154 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 968661878 212.151.111.154 (Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:44:38 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:44:38 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!news.vas-net.net!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27181 Tom Sherlock hath written: > "Öjevind Lång" wrote: >> Tom Sherlock hath written: >> >> > jsolinas@erols.com wrote: >> >> [snip] >> >> >> Indeed. I wonder if it's even legal to create stories based on >> >> Middle-Earth without the Estate's permission. >> >> >> > >> >I wd have to disagree. I believe that Tolkien´s opus, Tolkien´s >> >mythology has become greater than the author...Expanding on Tolkien´s > >work would create a whole new sub-genre of fantasy fiction >> >> Though I am not a legal expert, I suspect you are wrong and that anyone >> outisde the lawless Russia who published a story using Tolkien's >> characters >> and Tolkien's world would get into considerable trouble >> >I don't see the connection between yr comment above and mine above that. >I make no reference to legality in the above quote. You responded to a statement of Flame of the West which questioned the very legality of writing stories situated in Middle-earth. I think that believing you disagreed with Flame's statement about the illegality was a rather natural assumption on my part. >> >I wd even daresay that, J.R.R. Tolkien would be flattered if others >> >choose to expand his mythology. >> >> I am quite certain that Tolkien would have been extremely annoyed. > >Öjevind, since you and I are proposing too extreme positions, I then >suggest, that only those the worked closely with Tolkien and his family >wd be able to be truly certain of his reaction. >> >> > In fact Tolkien approached Middle-Earth not as >> >it's creator, but rather as linguistic and cultural archaeologist and > >a historian. This approach leaves the door open for other. >> >"historians",other "linguists". >> >> That was the conceit he used, but of course he created his world and >> would have been very upset if anyone else had usurped it. After all, he >> was very offended at the mere borrowing of his names without >> permission, for example on the occasion when a hydrofoil to Jersey was >> named "Shadowfax". >> >You example is different from what I had suggested in two respects: > 1. in my original posting I mentioned that participation of the > Tolkien state as a requirement. By implication this means their > approval. > 2. Naming a hydrofoil after a character from Middle-Earth is very > different from trying expand and extend Tolkien's work through > additional short stories or novels or poems or songs,etc. To simplify matters, let me simply paste a note from Conrad Dunkerson on this subject: [Conrad's message] Från: Conrad Dunkerson Ämne: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Datum: den 10 september 2000 14:03 "Androg" wrote in message news:39bb1747@casper.southcom.com.au... > From that one would get the idea that originally at least Tolkien > envisaged others also possibly in the future creating this > mythology with him. One might take it that way... or we could look at JRRT's direct statement on the question; "I send you this enclosed impertinent contribution to my troubles. I do not know what the legal position is, I suppose that since one cannot claim property in inventing proper names, there is no legal obstacle to this young ass publishing his sequel, if he could find any publisher, either respectable or disreputable, who would accept such tripe. I have merely informed him that I have forwarded his letter and samples to you. I think that a suitable letter from Allen & Unwin might be more effective than one from me. I once had a similar proposal couched in the most obsequious terms, from a young woman, and when I replied in the negative, I received a most vituperative letter." Letters #292 In point of fact he was wrong about the legal situation, but his attitude towards unauthorized mucking in his world is fairly clear. [/Conrad's message] -------------------------------- That is the end of Conrad's post. My friend, let me mention, without any desire to sound condescending or insulting, that there are other writers than Tolkien and other worlds to explore. If you don't care for other fantasy, there are worlds beyond that: Dostoyevsky's "Crime and Punishment" featuring Raskolnikov's world; Jane Austen's world; Kipling's India in "Kim" (a glorious masterpiece); Joseph Conrad's world (have your read "Lord Jim", "The Nigger of the Narcissus" or "Nostromo"?); William Faulkner's Yoknapatawtha County. And here is a very good tip for you: try Cordwainer Smith's science fiction stories. They are the most fascinating, brilliant, zany and frightening stories you could ever imagine. Öjevind ###### From: "Androg" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> <8pcddp$hti$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net> <39bb1747@casper.southcom.com.au> Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:56:02 +1000 Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com Message-ID: <39bc9e95$1@casper.southcom.com.au> X-Trace: 11 Sep 2000 08:57:57 GMT, delta.tavultesoft.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.labyrinth.net.au!casper.southcom.com.au!delta.tavultesoft.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27164 Conrad Dunkerson wrote in message news:sMKu5.1974$6i1.175252@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > > One might take it that way... or we could look at JRRT's direct > statement on the question; > > > In point of fact he was wrong about the legal situation, but his > attitude towards unauthorized mucking in his world is fairly clear. That seems very clear. As a matter of fact, I'm only in my first reading of Letters, and hadn't reached this one yet (though not far off). -- Andróg "Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncúthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescéne land, eardgeard elfa, and ésa bliss." ###### From: Tom Sherlock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:08:13 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 89 Message-ID: <8piovr$bk8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> <8pcddp$hti$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net> <8phbub$pqb$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 170.148.33.7 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Sep 11 14:08:13 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x73.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 170.148.33.7 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtomsherlock Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!machtgarnix.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27128 In article , "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > Tom Sherlock hath written: > > > "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > >> Tom Sherlock hath written: > >> > >> > jsolinas@erols.com wrote: > >> > >> [snip] > >> > >> >> Indeed. I wonder if it's even legal to create stories based on > >> >> Middle-Earth without the Estate's permission. > >> >> > >> > > >> >I wd have to disagree. I believe that Tolkien´s opus, Tolkien´s > >> >mythology has become greater than the author...Expanding on Tolkien´s > > >work would create a whole new sub-genre of fantasy fiction > >> > >> Though I am not a legal expert, I suspect you are wrong > >> [snip] > >I make no reference to legality in the above quote. > > You responded to a statement of Flame of the West which questioned the very > legality of writing stories situated in Middle-earth. I think that believing > you disagreed with Flame's statement about the illegality was a rather > natural assumption on my part. > In that case, I have erred by not clearly communicating my message. I did not intend to disagree with Flame's statement about the illegality of expanding and extending the Middle-earth mythology; in fact, I believe in the concept of copyright. I had gotten the impression that the Flame of the West believed that Tolkien's work shd not be expanded and extended by other writers even if they had the permission of the Tolkien Estate. I was disagreeing with this idea. [snip] > > That is the end of Conrad's post. Yeah, I read Conrad's post after sending out my response to you. I am very disappointed by Tolkien's apparent displeasure at having other writers trying to extend and expand his work. But, being the eternal optomist that I am, i wd proffer that perhaps Tolkien just didn't like version that were being suggested. After all Tolkien did trust the judgement of his son Christopher Tolkien, even if he (the son) was simply publishing his father's unpublished work. Nevertheless C. Tolkien did have to choose between several version of a story and had to sometimes add details where the writing was unclear. Maybe C. Tolkien will bequeath this project to one of his children, or, if he has none, then to one of his sibling-children (I was just reading the LOTR chapter with The'oden who speaks of sister-daugher and sister-son :)) >My friend, let me mention, without >any > desire to sound condescending or insulting, that there are other writers > than Tolkien and other worlds to explore. If you don't care for other > fantasy, there are worlds beyond that: Dostoyevsky's "Crime and Punishment" > featuring Raskolnikov's world; Jane Austen's world; Kipling's India in "Kim" > (a glorious masterpiece); Joseph Conrad's world (have your read "Lord Jim", > "The Nigger of the Narcissus" or "Nostromo"?); William Faulkner's > Yoknapatawtha County. And here is a very good tip for you: try Cordwainer > Smith's science fiction stories. They are the most fascinating, brilliant, > zany and frightening stories you could ever imagine. You intended no offense, and none was taken. Your suggestions are much welcome. At the moment,however I have a full reading schedule set for myself. I don't remember the author's and title's off-hand, so later tonite,when I am home I will send follow-up post with my own list Tom Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "Endymion" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Date: 11 Sep 2000 16:36:08 GMT Organization: Lexis-Nexis Lines: 60 Message-ID: <01c01c0e$8018c240$324c10ac@crprm332.lexis-nexis.com> References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> <8pcddp$hti$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net> <39bb1747@casper.southcom.com.au> <39Lu5.1982$6i1.177729@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 172.16.76.50 X-Trace: mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com 968690168 20044 172.16.76.50 (11 Sep 2000 16:36:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@lexis-nexis.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Sep 2000 16:36:08 GMT X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!znr.news.ans.net!lexis-nexis!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27220 China Blue Shift wrote: > You're confusing different things. I'm afraid it is you who are confused. Please leave interpretation of copyright law to professionals and the courts; you're only confusing yourself and anyone who listens to you. I don't mean this as a personal put-down, but as a lawyer working in the information business I see far too many examples of non-lawyers assuming that intelligence, common sense and a decent education are all they need to understand the technicalities of the law - you wouldn't crack open a copy of a medical textbook and think you were thus qualified to perform brain surgery, would you? (Whether such a complex and arcane legal system is just is a question for another day and another forum; the fact is the law is what it is, and it is ignored or misinterpreted at one's peril.) > Terry Brooks's story > were an obvious reworking of the _ideas_ with a new expression. They got > his own copyright. True, the literary *themes* of Tolkien's works are not copyrighted, nor are the elements he took from public domain (i.e., mythological) sources: anyone who wants is free to write novels about power and its corrupting influence, or the small and seemingly unimportant chancing into a deciding role in the struggles of the great and powerful, or even about elves and dwarves and funny magic rings. But names and other specific inventions of the good professor, such as Middle-earth, Nazgul, Sauron, hobbits, Ents, Moria, Dunedain, Sindarin or any other created language, and any obvious reworking or development of the plot, characters, or language of Tolkien's works, are all very much protected by copyright; this protection has been and will be enforced by the courts. Note that nothing tangible in any of Brooks' works was recognizably borrowed from Tolkien. > / Let's go over this again. People have TRIED to publish stories in > / Middle Earth. They have been prevented from doing so. When Gary > / Gygax put a bunch of Middle Earth elements in his D&D roleplaying > / game he got sued... and had to change them. Fan fiction web-sites > > A business is not story. Trademarks deal with businesses not stories. The action against Gary Gygax and TSR had nothing to do with trademarks or any element of business practice; hobbits and Ents are not trademarks in the legal sense. It was strictly a case of copyright infringement in a printed work and was handled as such. > I can make up any story about Pocohantas I want. I only have problems if > use images, dialog, or any other derivations of Disney copyrighted > expression. Pocahontas was a historical person, not a character created by Disney. You canNOT publish any story you want about Mickey Mouse; just try it and feel the crushing weight of the Disney Empire (i.e., Mordor disguised with fairy dust) descend on your head. -- Endymion disintegration@mindspring.com ###### From: David Sulger Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:36:50 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8pj8o0$vuh$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> <8pcddp$hti$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net> <39bb1747@casper.southcom.com.au> <39Lu5.1982$6i1.177729@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.72.250.131 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Sep 11 18:36:50 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x68.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 166.72.250.131 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDorius Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27123 In article , "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: > > cover> > [snip] Do we have to go through all this crap _again_? Do people never learn? --Dave Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> <8pcddp$hti$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net> <8phbub$pqb$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8piovr$bk8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Lines: 15 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 22:36:45 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.97.106 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 968704456 212.151.97.106 (Mon, 11 Sep 2000 22:34:16 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 22:34:16 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27189 Tom Sherlock hath written: [snip] >You intended no offense, and none was taken. Your suggestions are much >welcome. At the moment,however I have a full reading schedule set for >myself. I don't remember the author's and title's off-hand, so later >tonite,when I am home I will send follow-up post with my own list You do that! I look forward to it. :-) Öjevind ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 17:12:40 -0400 Lines: 28 Message-ID: <39BD4AC7.A6FA28DD@erols.com> References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> <8pcddp$hti$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net> <8phbub$pqb$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8piovr$bk8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: BX+LF7bpzuG+dobs98VsUabVLIy7RPcCBSdzvyoEouE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Sep 2000 21:37:42 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27106 Tom Sherlock wrote: > I had gotten the impression that > the Flame of the West believed that Tolkien's work shd not be expanded > and extended by other writers even if they had the permission of the > Tolkien Estate. I was disagreeing with this idea. I didn't mean to imply that if I did. Although I must say that I would regard such fiction in the same way as I do the Iron Crown extensions of Tolkien's world: as noncanonical and to be sharply distinguished from JRRT/CT's writings. I personally would not read such fiction, just as I have no interest in the Iron Crown stuff. I would have serious objections to the line between canonical and noncanonical writings being blurred, as they have been with the Star Wars novels (and to a small extent, the Star Trek books). -- -- FotW, who hates the idea of noncanonical Sherlock Holmes too "For the uninitiated, Galadriel is the good sister of the evil but beautiful Queen Beruthiel, who imprisons the Fellowship of the Ring in the forest of Lothlorien." The Times of London ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> <8pcddp$hti$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net> <39bb1747@casper.southcom.com.au> <39Lu5.1982$6i1.177729@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Lines: 11 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 00:06:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.223 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 968717208 12.79.22.223 (Tue, 12 Sep 2000 00:06:48 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 00:06:48 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters2!bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27146 "China Blue Shift" wrote in message news:mlindanne-1009001323320001@c188.ppp.tsoft.com... > Okay, now I understand. You don't want to know the truth. I refer you to the excellent posts by Ojevind and Endymion; which provide the legal groundings behind the readily observable reality of protection for created worlds. ###### From: Tom Sherlock Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 03:36:55 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <8pk8cl$6di$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> <8pcddp$hti$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net> <8phbub$pqb$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8piovr$bk8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39BD4AC7.A6FA28DD@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.247.41.1 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Sep 12 03:36:55 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.72 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x59.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 165.247.41.1 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtomsherlock Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!feeder.qis.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27119 In article <39BD4AC7.A6FA28DD@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: > Tom Sherlock wrote: > > > I had gotten the impression that > > the Flame of the West believed that Tolkien's work shd not be expanded > > and extended by other writers even if they had the permission of the > > Tolkien Estate. I was disagreeing with this idea. > > I didn't mean to imply that if I did. Although I must say that > I would regard such fiction in the same way as I do the > Iron Crown extensions of Tolkien's world: as noncanonical > and to be sharply distinguished from JRRT/CT's writings. > I personally would not read such fiction, just as I have no > interest in the Iron Crown stuff. > > [snip] > I'm not familiar with the Iron Crown. Could you elaborate a little on it? Does this have something to do with the crown worn by Melkor/Morgoth? Tom Sherlock. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Message-ID: <39BE14C5.13B5E746@po-box.mcgill.ca> From: Carl Blondin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> <8pcddp$hti$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net> <8phbub$pqb$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8piovr$bk8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39BD4AC7.A6FA28DD@erols.com> <8pk8cl$6di$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 37 Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 11:33:00 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.168.182.198 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mcgill.ca X-Trace: carnaval.risq.qc.ca 968758380 198.168.182.198 (Tue, 12 Sep 2000 07:33:00 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 07:33:00 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!carnaval.risq.qc.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27138 Tom Sherlock wrote: > > In article <39BD4AC7.A6FA28DD@erols.com>, > jsolinas@erols.com wrote: > > Tom Sherlock wrote: > > > > > I had gotten the impression that > > > the Flame of the West believed that Tolkien's work shd not be expanded > > > and extended by other writers even if they had the permission of the > > > Tolkien Estate. I was disagreeing with this idea. > > > > I didn't mean to imply that if I did. Although I must say that > > I would regard such fiction in the same way as I do the > > Iron Crown extensions of Tolkien's world: as noncanonical > > and to be sharply distinguished from JRRT/CT's writings. > > I personally would not read such fiction, just as I have no > > interest in the Iron Crown stuff. > > > > [snip] > > > > I'm not familiar with the Iron Crown. Could you elaborate a little on > it? Does this have something to do with the crown worn by > Melkor/Morgoth? It might be where they took their name from, but I don't know if they know enough about Tolkien to realise that. Iron Crown Enterprise (ICE) created a role playing game which took part in M-E. However, Tolkien didn't give enough info on all the big vilains for their liking, so they invented names and stats and objects to make the world more interesting for their players. For example, they'll give you the names of all seven Nazgul, the description of Saruman's ring and tell yooou exactly what Bombadil is. Carl ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> <8pcddp$hti$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net> <8phbub$pqb$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8piovr$bk8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39BD4AC7.A6FA28DD@erols.com> <8pk8cl$6di$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39BE14C5.13B5E746@po-box.mcgill.ca> Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Lines: 19 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:41:43 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.20.73 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 968776754 212.151.20.73 (Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:39:14 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:39:14 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27188 Carl Blondin hath written: [snip] > >It might be where they took their name from, but I don't know if they >know enough about Tolkien to realise that. Iron Crown Enterprise (ICE) >created a role playing game which took part in M-E. However, Tolkien >didn't give enough info on all the big vilains for their liking, so they >invented names and stats and objects to make the world more interesting >for their players. For example, they'll give you the names of all seven >Nazgul, the description of Saruman's ring and tell you exactly what >Bombadil is. And what exactly is Tom Bombadil according to ICE? Öjevind ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> Organization: Europa From: ronc@pacifier.com (Ron Christian) NNTP-Posting-Host: thetics.europa.com Message-ID: <39be6e2f$1_1@news.nwlink.com> Date: 12 Sep 2000 10:55:59 -0700 X-Trace: 12 Sep 2000 10:55:59 -0700, thetics.europa.com Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!newsfeed.nwlink.com!news.nwlink.com!ronc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27132 Regarding the nine rings having been twited... oops, freudian slip... twisted so that they can exist and have power on their own, my response is ... ... I liked my idea a lot better; that the One Ring was only partially destroyed -- grafted to the cooked stump of Gollum's left hand. A lot better. And I was only kidding. Ron -- [www.europa.com/~ronc] "CBS's 'Big Brother' is every bit as real as the WWF championships." ###### From: David Sulger Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:29:44 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 15 Message-ID: <8plslr$3th$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> <8pcddp$hti$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net> <8phbub$pqb$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8piovr$bk8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39BD4AC7.A6FA28DD@erols.com> <8pk8cl$6di$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39BE14C5.13B5E746@po-box.mcgill.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.72.250.9 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Sep 12 18:29:44 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x73.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 166.72.250.9 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDorius Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27129 In article , "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > > And what exactly is Tom Bombadil according to ICE? > They simply define him as a Maia (which, as everyone knows, is correct :) ). --Dave Send e-mail to ds50.geo at yahoo.com Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Message-ID: <39BF6B0F.413EB293@po-box.mcgill.ca> From: Carl Blondin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pc21t$8v0$1@venus.telepac.pt> <39B9AB40.CCCA30C6@erols.com> <8pcddp$hti$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <7hvu5.7061$Fl2.59827@nntpserver.swip.net> <8phbub$pqb$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8piovr$bk8$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39BD4AC7.A6FA28DD@erols.com> <8pk8cl$6di$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39BE14C5.13B5E746@po-box.mcgill.ca> <8plslr$3th$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 19 Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 11:53:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.168.191.163 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mcgill.ca X-Trace: carnaval.risq.qc.ca 968845995 198.168.191.163 (Wed, 13 Sep 2000 07:53:15 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 07:53:15 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!carnaval.risq.qc.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27233 David Sulger wrote: > > In article , > "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > > > > And what exactly is Tom Bombadil according to ICE? > > > They simply define him as a Maia (which, as everyone knows, is > correct :) ). > Just the fact that ICE says so should get you to wonder about the truth of this statment, but let's not go in there. They also give you an exact description of what his powers are, his age and other little things like that. I don't have any of the books, so I can't give much more details. Carl ###### From: smokybarnable@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings 4-6 Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:36:06 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8pnvs4$hk0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20000908150912.23573.00000226@ng-cn1.aol.com> <8pi2a3$iqh$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.120.155.78 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Sep 13 13:36:06 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x68.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 212.120.155.78 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsmokybarnable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!fu-berlin.de!nntp.flash.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27228 In article <8pi2a3$iqh$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, n_aksman@my-deja.com wrote: > (snip) > > By the way, Nik Perumov lives in States now, he works there as a > microbiologist and writes books in his spare time. I've read an > interview with him where he said that he moved to States to work > because his books didn't sell good enough to provide for his family. > Well, I was much, much relieved about that. > > Natalya > This guy seems like an incredible dickhead. First of all he takes somebody elses work without permission, butchers it, insults the original author and then expects to earn a living out of it. Amazing! Thank you for your concise and informative summary Natalya. Smoky Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.