From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Date: Mon, 4 Sep 2000 09:19:39 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 18 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.cd.3e X-Server-Date: 4 Sep 2000 13:19:08 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!easynews!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26950 /The Silmarillion/'s creation story is the Music of the Ainur: the Great Ones sing, at Ilúvatar's direction, and their song is a vision; then Ilúvatar's makes that vision a reality. In /The Magician's Nephew/, one of Lewis's Narnia books, Aslan sings on an empty and dark plain, and his singing creates the sun, stars, plants, animals, people (not humans, BTW), and so on. There's obviously a similarity here. Does anyone know whether one idea had an influence on the other, or whether both were conceived independently? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 29 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 968087204 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 04 Sep 2000 12:06:44 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 12:06:44 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 17:06:44 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26964 Quoth brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown): > ...Aslan sings on an empty and dark plain, and his singing creates > the sun, stars, plants, animals, people... > There's obviously a similarity here. Does anyone know whether one > idea had an influence on the other, or whether both were conceived > independently? That's an interesting question; I'm surprised that I hadn't caught that similarity before. I'm fairly sure that Tolkien's idea came first: the basic idea of the Ainulindale was around long before Tolkien even met Lewis, and it would surprise me if Lewis was working on his Narnia stories at as young an age as Tolkien was working on Middle-earth (I'll readily accept information from those who _do_ know, however). In short, I wouldn't be surprised if Lewis was at least inspired by Tolkien for that idea. We know that Lewis included at least the (misspelled) word "Numinor" in, um, one of the sequels to _Out of the Silent Planet_, which was an intentional reference to Tolkien's unpublished stories. For my part, I've always seen _remarkable_ similarity between the notion of Aslan's mountains at the edge of the world (see, e.g., _The Last Battle_ in the chapter "Further up and further in", I think, for the point of clearest similarity in my mind) and the Mountains at the edge of Niggle's Parish. I checked once, by the way: "Leaf by Niggle" was written first. :) I do recall seeing a quote by Lewis somewhere in which he commented that Tolkien was impossible to influence; perhaps someone else can remember the source. Steuard Jensen ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue Shift) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 14:15:53 -0700 Organization: Collective against Consensual Sanity Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!c175.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26924 / > ...Aslan sings on an empty and dark plain, and his singing creates / > the sun, stars, plants, animals, people... / / > There's obviously a similarity here. Does anyone know whether one / > idea had an influence on the other, or whether both were conceived / > independently? / / That's an interesting question; I'm surprised that I hadn't caught / that similarity before. I'm fairly sure that Tolkien's idea came / first: the basic idea of the Ainulindale was around long before And just as the new world was so full of life that gold and silver coins became trees, could the new world of Arda be so full of life that Tom and Goldberry and all those dark things spontaneously came to life? =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Sign up for WASHINGTON MUTUAL BANK's special We Rob You While You Sleep Service TODAY! =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 pretty pretty http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/ All new and improved web pages! Bookmark yours today! :)-free zone. Elect LUM World Dictator! ###### From: Huan the hound Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 00:37:19 -0400 Organization: Merit Network Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: news.gvsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: aanews.merit.net 968128646 23171 148.61.1.15 (5 Sep 2000 04:37:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@merit.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 Sep 2000 04:37:26 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: river.it.gvsu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!aanews.merit.edu!news.gvsu.edu!river.it.gvsu.edu!dyera Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26799 On Mon, 4 Sep 2000, Steuard Jensen wrote: [snip] >We know that Lewis included at least the (misspelled) word "Numinor" >in, um, one of the sequels to _Out of the Silent Planet_, which was an >intentional reference to Tolkien's unpublished stories. For my part, My guess is that it was in Perelandra, but maybe it was also mentioned in That Hideous Strength. I read them recently, and noticed the word, but it wasn't a very interesting reference. Would it violate Netiquette to post that question (the music one, I mean) to alt.books.cs-lewis? -- Huan the hound of Valinor I heard it from a friend who heard it from another, she said she liked the way I smiled at You in Monterray... But tonight, I'm so lonely, put Your arms around me and tell me that You love me so much. All Star United ###### From: erk1030@aol.com (Mithrigil ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Lines: 12 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 05 Sep 2000 04:41:07 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000905004107.19411.00001031@ng-ba1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26855 >And just as the new world was so full of life that gold and silver coins >became trees, could the new world of Arda be so full of life that Tom and >Goldberry and all those dark things spontaneously came to life? Oooh, shudder, shudder. Makes you think about all of those *cough* happennings in Narnia. Entropy is an interesting thing. Especially with Toffee involved. -*Mithrigil* ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 10:54:21 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.cf.10 X-Server-Date: 5 Sep 2000 14:53:58 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!bignews.mediaways.net!easynews!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26940 Huan the hound wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >On Mon, 4 Sep 2000, Steuard Jensen wrote: >>We know that Lewis included at least the (misspelled) word "Numinor" >>in, um, one of the sequels to _Out of the Silent Planet_, which was an >>intentional reference to Tolkien's unpublished stories. > >My guess is that it was in Perelandra, but maybe it was also mentioned in >That Hideous Strength. I read them recently, and noticed the word, but it >wasn't a very interesting reference. From the preface to /That Hideous Strength/ (copyright 1946, long before LotR was published): "Those who would like to learn further about Numinor and the true West must (alas!) await the publication of much that still exists only in the MSS. of my friend, Professor J.R.R. Tolkien." I can imagine Tolkien's irritation at the misspelling. I don't understand the reference to "learn further": AFAIR Lewis didn't say *anything* about "Numinor" in the body of the novel, though it's been a while and I might have forgotten a passing reference. >Would it violate Netiquette to post that question (the music one, I mean) >to alt.books.cs-lewis? I can't imagine why. That seems like a legitimate topic for crosspost, probably a better plan that creating a separate thread. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: LESDL Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Organization: Tertiary Adjunct Of Unimatrix Zero One Message-ID: References: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 12:19:35 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.58.158.13 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shore.net X-Trace: news.shore.net 968170319 209.58.158.13 (Tue, 05 Sep 2000 12:11:59 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 12:11:59 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.shore.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26936 On Tue, 5 Sep 2000 10:54:21 -0400, brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) squinted and tapped out: >Huan the hound wrote in >rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>On Mon, 4 Sep 2000, Steuard Jensen wrote: >>>We know that Lewis included at least the (misspelled) word "Numinor" >>>in, um, one of the sequels to _Out of the Silent Planet_, which was an >>>intentional reference to Tolkien's unpublished stories. >> >>My guess is that it was in Perelandra, but maybe it was also mentioned in >>That Hideous Strength. I read them recently, and noticed the word, but it >>wasn't a very interesting reference. > >From the preface to /That Hideous Strength/ (copyright 1946, long >before LotR was published): "Those who would like to learn further >about Numinor and the true West must (alas!) await the publication >of much that still exists only in the MSS. of my friend, Professor >J.R.R. Tolkien." > >I can imagine Tolkien's irritation at the misspelling. I don't >understand the reference to "learn further": AFAIR Lewis didn't say >*anything* about "Numinor" in the body of the novel, though it's >been a while and I might have forgotten a passing reference. If I recall correctly, in one of the letters Tolkien refers to this misspelling and indicates that it was because CSL had only heard the name and never seen the actual spelling. There was no mention of any irritation. -- LESDL 74" Asshole(tm) 24 lb BS SENS http://eddiekieger.com ###### From: "Benjamin Ekman" <_NOSPAM_benjamin@ekman.nu> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Lines: 10 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.3018.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.3018.1300 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 19:42:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 213.64.110.9 X-Complaints-To: abuse@telia.com X-Trace: newsc.telia.net 968269325 213.64.110.9 (Wed, 06 Sep 2000 21:42:05 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 21:42:05 MET DST Organization: Telia Internet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.tele.dk!128.39.3.166!uninett.no!newsfeed1.enitel.no!masternews.telia.net!newsc.telia.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26875 > I don't understand the reference to "learn further": AFAIR Lewis didn't say > *anything* about "Numinor" in the body of the novel, though it's > been a while and I might have forgotten a passing reference. I think Numinor was mentioned as the source of Merlins powers. //Benjamin ###### From: jce@seasip.demon.co.uk (John Elliott) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 20:10:41 Message-ID: <968271161.29855.0.nnrp-09.c2de7091@news.demon.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: seasip.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: seasip.demon.co.uk:194.222.112.145 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 968271161 nnrp-09:29855 NO-IDENT seasip.demon.co.uk:194.222.112.145 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: skim 0.8.4 Lines: 32 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!seasip.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26952 "Benjamin Ekman" <_NOSPAM_benjamin@ekman.nu> wrote: > >I think Numinor was mentioned as the source of Merlins powers. "That Hideous Strength", chapter 13, seems to make it pretty certain: "It may happen to seem to you the speech of barbarians," said Ransom, "for it is long since it has been heard. Not even in Numinor was it heard in the streets." The Stranger [Merlin] gave no start and his face remained as quiet as before, if it did not become quieter. But he spoke with a new interest. "Your Masters let you play with dangerous toys," he said. "Tell me, slave, what is Numinor?" "The true West," said Ransom. In the previous chapter the N.I.C.E. [*] officials discuss what they should expect from Merlin: "What we have here," said Frost pointing to the sleeper, "is not, you see, something from the fifth century. It is the last vestige, surviving into the fifth century, of something much more remote. Something that comes down from long before the Great Disaster, even from before primitive Druidism; something that takes us back to Numinor, to pre-glacial periods." [*] These days, of course, Britain really does have an N.I.C.E - the National Institute for Clinical Excellence. Somehow I don't think whoever named it was a C. S. Lewis fan. ------------- http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/index.html -------------------- John Elliott |BLOODNOK: "But why have you got such a long face?" |SEAGOON: "Heavy dentures, Sir!" - The Goon Show :-------------------------------------------------------------------------) ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Lines: 10 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 23:00:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.43 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 968281255 12.79.22.43 (Wed, 06 Sep 2000 23:00:55 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 23:00:55 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26821 "LESDL" wrote in message news:n47arso9m8r7i8jpdcb2e0dahke66djr88@4ax.com... > If I recall correctly, in one of the letters Tolkien refers to > this misspelling and indicates that it was because CSL had only > heard the name and never seen the actual spelling. Letters #169 & #227 ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Date: Wed, 06 Sep 2000 18:32:43 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <968271161.29855.0.nnrp-09.c2de7091@news.demon.co.uk> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newspeer1.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26959 On Wed, 06 Sep 2000 20:10:41 , jce@seasip.demon.co.uk (John Elliott) wrote: >[*] These days, of course, Britain really does have an N.I.C.E - the >National Institute for Clinical Excellence. Somehow I don't think whoever >named it was a C. S. Lewis fan. ROTFLMAO! Did the same guy contribute the Beruthiel article to the Times? the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Me a sceptic? I hope you have proof. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 12:10:12 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <968271161.29855.0.nnrp-09.c2de7091@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.cf.de X-Server-Date: 7 Sep 2000 16:09:30 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!falcon.america.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26937 John Elliott wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >"Benjamin Ekman" <_NOSPAM_benjamin@ekman.nu> wrote: >> >>I think Numinor was mentioned as the source of Merlins powers. > > "That Hideous Strength", chapter 13, seems to make it pretty certain: [quotes from chapters 12 and 13 snipped] Thanks for ferreting that out -- I had forgotten about those passages! -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2000 12:00:26 -0700 Organization: UCLA Chemistry Lines: 56 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!awabi.library.ucla.edu!164.67.43.25!news.ucla.edu!ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27004 A few thoughts: I do think it quite likely that Tolkien's music of the Ainur influenced Lewis' creation song of Aslan. I also can't remember the exact quotes, but Tolkien commented in letter #276 that Lewis was a "very impressionable man," that he absorbed influences from those around him. You can certainly see influences of Tolkien and Charles Williams in Lewis' work. However, I'm not completely convinced they weren't both getting this from somewhere else. I've seen this image of God singing the stars into being in other Christian sources, though quickly checking the Bible I can only find a reference in Job 38:7 which talks about how the "morning stars sang together" at creation. Not quite the same thing. On the mountain of Aslan and the mountains of Niggle, here I think it's fairly certain that, while they may have been reinforcing eachother, Lewis and Tolkien were both drawing on prior imagery. The idea of going up a mountain to meet God is a pretty old one, going back to Moses at Mt. Sinai. Milton places Eden atop a mountain, and Dante has to travel up the mountain of Purgatory to enter Heaven. Probably lots of other examples would come up in a search of classical sources. Actually, the closer parallel to Niggle in Lewis, IMO, would be _The Great Divorce_, where the newly arrived ghosts come first to the lowlands, but after a period of adjustment are called to travel up into the mountains. On Lewis' use of "Numinor", as others have pointed out, the misspelling was due to Lewis hearing it read aloud to the Inklings rather than seeing it in print. These references in _That Hideous Strength_ were there because this was originally supposed to be a collaboration between Lewis and Tolken, and so the works needed to have points of reference to eachother. From _Letters_ #24: "Mr C. S. Lewis tells me that you have allowed him to submit to you 'Out of the Silent Planet.' . . . We originally meant each to write an excursionary 'Thriller': a Space-journey and a Time-journey (mine) each discovering Myth. But the Space- journey has been finished, and the Time-journey remains owing to my slowness and uncertainty only a fragment, as you know." From _Letters_ #294: "L. [Lewis] said to me one day: 'Tollers, there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.' We agreed that he should try 'space- travel', and I should try 'time-travel'. His result is well known. My effort, after a few promising chapters, ran dry: it was too long a way round to what I really wanted to make, a new version of the Atlantis legen. The final scene survives as The Downfall of Numenor. This attracted Lewis greatly (as heard read), and reference to it occurs in several places in his works: e.g. 'The Last of the Wine', in his poems (Poems, 1964, p. 40)." Tolkien's abandoned effort in this collaboration was "The Lost Road," which survives in one of the HOME's that I haven't read yet. Bruce ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Lines: 24 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <%Muu5.7052$Fl2.58866@nntpserver.swip.net> Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 19:54:24 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.44.245 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 968521915 212.151.44.245 (Sat, 09 Sep 2000 19:51:55 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 19:51:55 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27075 Bruce N. Hietbrink hath written: >A few thoughts: > >I do think it quite likely that Tolkien's music of the Ainur >influenced Lewis' creation song of Aslan. I also can't >remember the exact quotes, but Tolkien commented in letter #276 >that Lewis was a "very impressionable man," that he absorbed >influences from those around him. You can certainly see influences >of Tolkien and Charles Williams in Lewis' work. However, I'm >not completely convinced they weren't both getting this from >somewhere else. I've seen this image of God singing the stars >into being in other Christian sources, though quickly checking the >Bible I can only find a reference in Job 38:7 which talks about >how the "morning stars sang together" at creation. Not quite >the same thing. In "The Magician's Nephew" it is described how the stars, after Aslan has sung them into being, join him in singing. This would seem to me to be a straight influence from the Bible, not from Tolkien. Öjevind ###### Lines: 15 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: pbachjson@aol.compart (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 09 Sep 2000 18:20:05 GMT References: <%Muu5.7052$Fl2.58866@nntpserver.swip.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000909142005.29414.00001004@nso-cn.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27065 In article <%Muu5.7052$Fl2.58866@nntpserver.swip.net>, "Öjevind Lång" writes: >In "The Magician's Nephew" it is described how the stars, after Aslan has >sung them into being, join him in singing. This would seem to me to be a >straight influence from the Bible, not from Tolkien. > >Öjevind Unless you think of the Ainur. He might not elaborate on the _role_ of the star's music but.... PaulB "Everything and anything about a culture can be inferred fom the shape of its language..." — Jubal Harshaw ###### From: khanyaiis@global.co.za (Steve Hayes) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox,alt.books.inklings,alt.books.cs-lewis Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 05:39:21 GMT Organization: The South African Internet Exchange Lines: 62 Message-ID: <39bb1635.2550095@news.worldonline.co.za> References: Reply-To: shayes@dunelm.org.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: ppr53-04-p61.nt.saix.net X-Trace: ctb-nnrp2.saix.net 968564512 15047 155.239.198.61 (10 Sep 2000 05:41:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@saix.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Sep 2000 05:41:52 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!btnet-peer1!btnet-peer0!btnet!ctb-nntp1.saix.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27073 On Fri, 08 Sep 2000 12:00:26 -0700, bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink) wrote: >I do think it quite likely that Tolkien's music of the Ainur >influenced Lewis' creation song of Aslan. I also can't >remember the exact quotes, but Tolkien commented in letter #276 >that Lewis was a "very impressionable man," that he absorbed >influences from those around him. You can certainly see influences >of Tolkien and Charles Williams in Lewis' work. However, I'm >not completely convinced they weren't both getting this from >somewhere else. I've seen this image of God singing the stars >into being in other Christian sources, though quickly checking the >Bible I can only find a reference in Job 38:7 which talks about >how the "morning stars sang together" at creation. Not quite >the same thing. I think it is probably exactly the same thing, and most likely the source for both Lewis and Tolkien. As an Anglican Lewis would probably have been familiar with J.M. Neale's translation of a hymn by St Joseph the Hymnographer (I'm cross-posting this to alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox in the hope that somone can point me to the original, and when it is used in the liturgical year - probably on 8 November , the feast of St Michael, Gabriel and Raphael and all the Bodiless Powers of the Heavens.). Neale's version goes like this: Stars of the morning, so gloriously bright filled with celestial virtue and light these that, where night never followeth day Raise the Trisagion ever and ay. Then when the earth was first poised in mid space then when the planets first sped on their race then when was ended their six days' empoy then all the sons of God shouted for joy. Now consider what Lewis wrote: "Then two wonders happened at the same moment. One was that the voice was suddenly joined by other voices; more voices than you could possibly count. They were in harmony with it, but far higher up the scale, cold, tingling, silvery voices. The second wonder was that the blackness overhead, all at once, was blazing with stars. They didn't come out gently one by one, as they do on a sumer evening. One moment there had been nothing but darkness; next moment, a thousand, thousand points of light leaped out - single stars, constellations and planets, brighter and bigger than any in our world. There were no clouds. The new stars and the new voices came into being at exactly the same time. If you had seen and heard it, as Digory did, you would have felt quite certain that it was the stars themselves which were singing, and that it was the First Voice, the deep one, which had made them appear and made them sing". I don't know if Tolkien, as a Roman Catholic, would have been aware of Neale's translation, but there may well have been an RC version of it. Steve Hayes http://www.geocities.com/hayesstw/ ###### From: bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 15:51:20 -0700 Organization: UCLA Chemistry Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <%Muu5.7052$Fl2.58866@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!feed.nntp.primus.ca!feed.nntp.primus.ca!feed.cgocable.net!HSNX.atgi.net!news-in.nibble.net!awabi.library.ucla.edu!164.67.43.25!news.ucla.edu!ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27175 In article <%Muu5.7052$Fl2.58866@nntpserver.swip.net>, "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > Bruce N. Hietbrink hath written: > quickly checking the > >Bible I can only find a reference in Job 38:7 which talks about > >how the "morning stars sang together" at creation. Not quite > >the same thing. > > In "The Magician's Nephew" it is described how the stars, after Aslan has > sung them into being, join him in singing. This would seem to me to be a > straight influence from the Bible, not from Tolkien. > Good point. I hadn't gone back and reread that scene in _The Magician's Nephew_. Bruce ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <%Muu5.7052$Fl2.58866@nntpserver.swip.net> Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Lines: 16 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:34:35 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.111.154 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 968661126 212.151.111.154 (Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:32:06 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 10:32:06 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27182 Bruce N. Hietbrink hath written: [snip] >Good point. I hadn't gone back and reread that scene in >_The Magician's Nephew_. "The Magician's Nephew" has always been my favourite Narnia book. I think it is completely satisfactory and flawless, which I am not (now, as a grownup reader) willing to say about any of the others, particularly not "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader" or "The Last Battle". Öjevind ###### From: bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 14:12:05 -0700 Organization: UCLA Chemistry Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <%Muu5.7052$Fl2.58866@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!awabi.library.ucla.edu!164.67.43.25!news.ucla.edu!ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27174 In article , "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > "The Magician's Nephew" has always been my favourite Narnia book. I think it > is completely satisfactory and flawless, which I am not (now, as a grownup > reader) willing to say about any of the others, particularly not "The Voyage > of the Dawn Treader" or "The Last Battle". > > Öjevind Really? _Dawn Treader_ is actually my favorite of the series, though I guess this is not so much as one continuous work but as a series of episodes. Bruce ###### From: John Elliott Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 22:04:24 GMT Message-ID: <968709864.16930.0.nnrp-14.c2de7091@news.demon.co.uk> References: <968271161.29855.0.nnrp-09.c2de7091@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: seasip.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: seasip.demon.co.uk:194.222.112.145 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 968709864 nnrp-14:16930 NO-IDENT seasip.demon.co.uk:194.222.112.145 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991201 ("Polish") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.16-9mdk (i686)) Lines: 15 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newscore.gigabell.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!seasip.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27210 Stan Brown wrote: : Thanks for ferreting that out -- I had forgotten about those : passages! Of course, it would have been easier to do an electronic search on an e-text version of the book. Then again, the way e-texts are going these days, I'd probably have found that Jane Studdock and Camilla Denniston had turned into unarmed combat experts who fight off the N.I.C.E.'s heavies and rescue Merlin; and that Wither was constantly stroking a white cat and had a tendency to drop people in piranha pools. ------------- http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/index.html -------------------- John Elliott |BLOODNOK: "But why have you got such a long face?" |SEAGOON: "Heavy dentures, Sir!" - The Goon Show :-------------------------------------------------------------------------) ###### From: bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 15:59:08 -0700 Organization: UCLA Chemistry Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <968271161.29855.0.nnrp-09.c2de7091@news.demon.co.uk> <968709864.16930.0.nnrp-14.c2de7091@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!europa.netcrusader.net!164.67.42.145!awabi.library.ucla.edu!164.67.43.25!news.ucla.edu!ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27177 In article <968709864.16930.0.nnrp-14.c2de7091@news.demon.co.uk>, John Elliott wrote: > Stan Brown wrote: > : Thanks for ferreting that out -- I had forgotten about those > : passages! > > Of course, it would have been easier to do an electronic search on > an e-text version of the book. Then again, the way e-texts are going these > days, I'd probably have found that Jane Studdock and Camilla Denniston had > turned into unarmed combat experts who fight off the N.I.C.E.'s heavies and > rescue Merlin; and that Wither was constantly stroking a white cat and > had a tendency to drop people in piranha pools. > Sounds cool. Are you writing this version? I think it should turn out that Wither is Mark's father. Bruce ###### From: jce@seasip.demon.co.uk (John Elliott) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 23:09:11 Message-ID: <968713899.2050.0.nnrp-07.c2de7091@news.demon.co.uk> References: <968271161.29855.0.nnrp-09.c2de7091@news.demon.co.uk> <968709864.16930.0.nnrp-14.c2de7091@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: seasip.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: seasip.demon.co.uk:194.222.112.145 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 968713899 nnrp-07:2050 NO-IDENT seasip.demon.co.uk:194.222.112.145 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Newsreader: skim 0.8.4 Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!seasip.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27206 bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink) wrote: > >Sounds cool. Are you writing this version? I think it should >turn out that Wither is Mark's father. No; I haven't got the aptitude or time for writing e-texts. ------------- http://www.seasip.demon.co.uk/index.html -------------------- John Elliott |BLOODNOK: "But why have you got such a long face?" |SEAGOON: "Heavy dentures, Sir!" - The Goon Show :-------------------------------------------------------------------------) ###### From: mathwft@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Date: 12 Sep 2000 05:50:05 GMT Organization: Department of Mathematics and Statistics, University of Canterbury, Christchurch, NewZealand Lines: 32 Message-ID: <8pkg6d$818$2@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: ssp5-00.math.canterbury.ac.nz X-Newsreader: xrn 8.02 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!blackbush.xlink.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news.tele.dk!212.43.194.69!fr.clara.net!news-raspail.gip.net!news-dc.gip.net!news-stock.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.iprolink.co.nz!canterbury.ac.nz!mathwft Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27173 brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > AFAIR Lewis didn't say > *anything* about "Numinor" in the body of the novel, BZZZZZT!! Thank you for playing; next contestant please. > though it's been a while and I might have forgotten a passing reference. Too long, obviously. How could you forget! I wonder...are you *really* a fan!? [JUST KIDDING] Yes, there's a passing reference in the section where Ransom and Dimble (or maybe the other guy) are wondering what (healing?) powers the unearthed Merlin might turn out to have. One says something like, "We don't know what the Numenorean powers were like - probably some form of hypnotism accounted for most of it..." Sorry I can't give you a better quote or chapter number - haven't got the books with me right now. And don't forget - there is nothing so disenchanting as the smell of burnt Marshwiggle! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Taylor W.Taylor@math.canterbury.ac.nz -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There are fewer things in heaven & earth than are dreamed of in your philosophy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ###### From: "Morgil" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <%Muu5.7052$Fl2.58866@nntpserver.swip.net> Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Lines: 35 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <4Nsv5.386$Cj5.14117@read2.inet.fi> Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 16:24:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.197.13.158 X-Trace: read2.inet.fi 968775872 194.197.13.158 (Tue, 12 Sep 2000 19:24:32 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 19:24:32 EET DST Organization: Sonera corp Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!ayres.ftech.net!news.ftech.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!nntp.inet.fi!central.inet.fi!inet.fi!read2.inet.fi.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27134 Bruce N. Hietbrink kirjoitti viestissä ... >In article , "Öjevind Lång" > wrote: > > >> "The Magician's Nephew" has always been my favourite Narnia book. I think it >> is completely satisfactory and flawless, which I am not (now, as a grownup >> reader) willing to say about any of the others, particularly not "The Voyage >> of the Dawn Treader" or "The Last Battle". >> >> Öjevind > > >Really? _Dawn Treader_ is actually my favorite of the series, though >I guess this is not so much as one continuous work but as a series >of episodes. I like it too, at least some episodes. ;) My other favourite is the one with the Horse and the Boy(I don´t know the english title), though it´s been a long time since I last read them, so... BTW, do you think David Eddings stole the characters of Garion and Ce- Nedra from that book. There seems to be too many similarities to be just coincidence. Morgil ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <%Muu5.7052$Fl2.58866@nntpserver.swip.net> Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Lines: 32 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:26:35 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.20.73 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 968775846 212.151.20.73 (Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:24:06 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:24:06 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27185 Bruce N. Hietbrink hath written: >In article "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > > >> "The Magician's Nephew" has always been my favourite Narnia book. I think it >> is completely satisfactory and flawless, which I am not (now, as a grownup >> reader) willing to say about any of the others, particularly not "The Voyage >> of the Dawn Treader" or "The Last Battle". >> >> Öjevind > > >Really? _Dawn Treader_ is actually my favorite of the series, though >I guess this is not so much as one continuous work but as a series >of episodes. What irritated me abot "Dawn reader" wasthe way Aslan turned up all the time to tell them what to do. It was not even good Christianity since it made a mockery of the concept of free will, which is important to Christians of Lewis' stripe. And it was a crashing bore for the reader. "Aslan turned up and told me..." "Suddenly a lion walked past them..." "On the next page, Lucy saw a picture of Aslan. He growled and showed his teeth"... "Suddenly, the lamb turned into Aslan", and on and on and on. Öjevind ###### From: Amanda Dyer Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 16:59:07 -0400 Organization: Merit Network Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <%Muu5.7052$Fl2.58866@nntpserver.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: news.gvsu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: aanews.merit.net 968792350 33999 148.61.1.15 (12 Sep 2000 20:59:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@merit.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Sep 2000 20:59:10 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: river.it.gvsu.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!newsfeed.dpn.de!news-out3.f.gtn.com!news-in2.f.gtn.com!bignews.mediaways.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!aanews.merit.edu!news.gvsu.edu!river.it.gvsu.edu!dyera Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27223 On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, Bruce N. Hietbrink wrote: >Really? _Dawn Treader_ is actually my favorite of the series, though >I guess this is not so much as one continuous work but as a series >of episodes. I would call DAWN TREADER my favorite as well. I think we have discussed the symbolism and sllegory in the Narnia series before, either here or in AFT. Some people really objected to the way it was handled in the LAST BATTLE but I can't remember what was so bad about DT unless it was the very end. -- Huan the hound of Valinor I heard it from a friend who heard it from another, she said she liked the way I smiled at You in Monterray... But tonight, I'm so lonely, put Your arms around me and tell me that You love me so much. All Star United ###### Message-ID: <39BEC4F3.1D49B2BA@rmit.edu.au> Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:06:11 +1000 From: Kylie Johnson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis References: <%Muu5.7052$Fl2.58866@nntpserver.swip.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NNTP-Posting-Host: miragia.bf.rmit.edu.au X-Trace: 13 Sep 2000 10:03:32 +1100, miragia.bf.rmit.edu.au Lines: 17 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!news.syd.connect.com.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!news1.optus.net.au!optus!vrn.edu.au!mercury.its.rmit.edu.au!miragia.bf.rmit.edu.au Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27224 "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > > What irritated me abot "Dawn reader" wasthe way Aslan turned up all the time > to tell them what to do. It was not even good Christianity since it made a > mockery of the concept of free will, which is important to Christians of > Lewis' stripe. And it was a crashing bore for the reader. "Aslan turned up > and told me..." "Suddenly a lion walked past them..." "On the next page, > Lucy saw a picture of Aslan. He growled and showed his teeth"... "Suddenly, > the lamb turned into Aslan", and on and on and on. > > Öjevind :) That reminds me of part of the Book-a-Minute review of Prince Caspian: "Aslan saves EVERYBODY because they can't save THEMSELVES." K ###### From: bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 13:22:36 -0700 Organization: UCLA Chemistry Lines: 50 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!Quza.UK.peer!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!feeder.via.net!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!awabi.library.ucla.edu!164.67.43.25!news.ucla.edu!ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27278 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote: > > There's obviously a similarity here. Does anyone know whether one > idea had an influence on the other, or whether both were conceived > independently? Hi all, I raised this question in a C. S. Lewis forum, and one member of that forum passed along some classical references that may have influenced Tolkein and/or Lewis: _______ My letter was printed in the Autumn 1987 Mythlore, #51, p. 40. Turns out it was only two passages, not three or four: "...which I offer to the attention of students of THE SILMARILLION and in particular of the =Ainulindale=. I would presume that J.R.R. Tolkien was familiar in outline if not in detail with the Fathers. "The first is from Clement of Alexandria: "'[God] structured the universe into a melody and turned out the discordant sound of the elements into an ordered harmony, a harmony that would prevail through the whole .... The dissonance of the universe he mixed into a harmony. This deathless song, the mainstay and harmony of the universe, stretching from the center to the extremities and thence to the center, has harmonized the whole...' "The second, a short pendant to it, from Gregory of Nyssa: "'There was a time when rational creation was a single chorus, intent upon the one leader of the chorus and moving and turning to that harmony of triumph which arose from him and which was according to the commandment.' " No longer having the anthology from which I was quoting, I regret that I cannot give more specific citations of exactly where the Fathers said these things. Mary M. Stolzenbach ------- Bruce ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 16:43:38 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <%Muu5.7052$Fl2.58866@nntpserver.swip.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27259 On Tue, 12 Sep 2000 16:59:07 -0400, Amanda Dyer wrote: >On Mon, 11 Sep 2000, Bruce N. Hietbrink wrote: >>Really? _Dawn Treader_ is actually my favorite of the series, though >>I guess this is not so much as one continuous work but as a series >>of episodes. > >I would call DAWN TREADER my favorite as well. DT is my favorite of the series also, closely followed by HHB. the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Barium: What you do with dead chemists. ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gildor's home Lines: 96 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 15 Sep 2000 21:03:26 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000915170326.20965.00004462@nso-cg.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27326 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: >> Aris Katsaris wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >> >With the removal of the name of "Inglor" however, Gildor can no >> >longer be the grandson of Finarfin. So he probably means that his >> >family followed the people of Finarfin (led by Finrod). > >> But this makes no sense, as I tried to say earlier. Finrod died >> years before the end of the First Age, and his realm of Nargothrond >> was also destroyed before the end of the First Age. So any of his >> followers who escaped the sack would surely cease describing >> themselves as being of his house, after 6000+ years. In all that >> time they would form new loyalties to new lords. > >But the question is, who were these new lords to whom they would form >new loyalties? The only strong leader of the Noldor in Middle-earth >that I can think of after the First Age is Gil-Galad. Now, I can't >imagine that every noble Noldo left in Middle-earth found a place in >the House of Gil-galad, or wanted to. (Gil-galad may well have >already had his own House largely established before the end of the >First Age and the rearrangements that followed.) Not only that, but I >could imagine that saying, "I was a high chieftain under Finrod" would >earn more respect than saying, "I was a high chieftan under >Gil-galad." > >I've thought of a possible reason for Gildor's continued use of the >title "of the House of Finrod". After the fall of Nargothrond, its >few (free) survivors were presumably scattered about the countryside. >The surviving leaders would probably do what they could to gather the >others together, both for their own defense and to have some small >hope of continuing the fight against Morgoth (much as Barahir did >after his land fell to the Enemy). Now, assuming that Gildor was one >of those leaders, he could either tell the scatterred refugees, >"Follow me, I'm Gildor", or, "Follow me, I was trusted by our founding >king". I could well imagine that in a time of disaster, many of the >refugees would be comforted by any reminder of the former structure of >their lives. > >Once the group was established, Gildor could probably communicate his >position and his authority most concisely with precisely the statement >"I am Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod": other Elves might not >know him, but they would immediately understand that he was a >chieftain of Nargothrond and might readily guess more of his history >(and that of his followers). Over the years, "of the House of Finrod" >may have become almost a "lordly" title in its own right, particularly >if his group of refugees remained together as a community under his >lead over the long years. I dunno. Whoever survived the fall of Nargothrond pretty much made their way to the Havens at the mouth of Sirion. Anyway, I think there are several explanations. Several Noldorin titles and crowns converged on Gil-galad. He was high king as surviving heir of Turgon. He was also heir to Finrod who was not only King of the defunct realm of Nargothrond but also had a grant directly from Thingol over the Sindarin population in that area. I've argued in different contexts that Thingol's grant survivied the fall of the physical realm of Nargothrond and the refugee Sindarin population of the former Nargothrond would still have the scion of the House of Finrod as their liegelord. Anyway, I think as you say, that Gildor was essentially using this moniker to identify himself as part of an older noble tradition than the johnny come lately's of the Second and Third Ages. Only those who rose to prominence under Gil-galad might identify themselves as being of the House of Gil-galad. What Gildor was saying is that he earned his strip[es under Finrod. > >I'm pretty sure that this is accepted as the "real", story-external >explanation. However, Tolkien did often feel himself to be bound by >published names and details (Glorfindel being a prime example), and >many of my favorite discussions on these groups have followed from the >same principles that he used to resolve such difficulties: trying to >work out a reasonable solution based on the constraints of the >published texts. We can often "learn more about Middle-earth" in the >process, and depending on the uniqueness of the solution to the >problem, somewhat "canonically" as well. In this case, if my >explanation above is a good one, we've learned something about the >aftermath of the fall of Nargothrond and the fate of its refugees. It >opens more questions, too: did other members of the House of Finrod >escape and form similar bands? Did similar leaders organize the >refugees from other fallen Elven nations? Did those groups play any >significant role in later events in the First Age or later? At any >rate, it's more interesting than just writing it off as an authorial >mistake. :) AFAIK, there were only three post-fall of Gondolin refugee groups: Balar, Mouth of Sirion and the Feanoreans in south Ossiriand. I recall some vague reference to some scattered bands surviving hidden up north but I don't think they were anything of significance. Russ ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Music of the Ainur and C.S. Lewis Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2000 06:53:31 -0400 Lines: 18 Message-ID: <39C0AE2A.8186F14E@erols.com> References: <%Muu5.7052$Fl2.58866@nntpserver.swip.net> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ki9/74mZF2kriSgKuNeQnZ+fTG7OIp1IRhCaBVVe+wU= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Sep 2000 19:33:36 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:27287 the softrat wrote: > DT is my favorite of the series also, closely followed by HHB. Magician's Nephew, here. > the softrat > mailto:softrat@pobox.com > -- > Barium: What you do with dead chemists. Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight Elbereth Gilthoniel!