From: "Dave Newton" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: The Hobbit Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 19:49:39 +0100 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 13 Message-ID: <8oec37$r6o$1@uranium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host62-7-6-157.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!psinet-eu-nl!psiuk-p4!uknet!btnet-peer0!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26529 In The Hobbit, prior to the actual text, there is a 'Note on the text' stating that from 1951 there is a significant revision in the chapter 'Riddles in the Dark' to take account of a story change in the Lord Of The Rings. I have three versions of The Hobbit but not the 'annotated' version from 1988 in which the answer may be found. This must be the perfect forum to ask what this change was. Any offers? -- Dave Newton http://www.btinternet.com/~davenewton ###### Message-ID: <39AAC762.65532D6A@po-box.mcgill.ca> From: Carl Blondin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Hobbit References: <8oec37$r6o$1@uranium.btinternet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 20:10:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.168.182.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mcgill.ca X-Trace: carnaval.risq.qc.ca 967493407 198.168.182.34 (Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:10:07 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 16:10:07 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!carnaval.risq.qc.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26506 Dave Newton wrote: > > In The Hobbit, prior to the actual text, there is a 'Note on the text' > stating that from 1951 there is a significant revision in the chapter > 'Riddles in the Dark' to take account of a story change in the Lord Of The > Rings. I have three versions of The Hobbit but not the 'annotated' version > from 1988 in which the answer may be found. This must be the perfect forum > to ask what this change was. Any offers? > Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I pretty sure it was that Bilbo told everyone a story where he simply met with Gollum, had a little riddle game with him, won and Gollum had to show him the way out and he gave him his ring willingly. Carl ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Hobbit References: <8oec37$r6o$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <39AAC762.65532D6A@po-box.mcgill.ca> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 39 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 967494751 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 28 Aug 2000 15:32:31 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 15:32:31 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 20:32:31 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26493 Quoth Carl Blondin : > Dave Newton wrote: > > In The Hobbit, prior to the actual text, there is a 'Note on the > > text' stating that from 1951 there is a significant revision in > > the chapter 'Riddles in the Dark' to take account of a story > > change in the Lord Of The Rings. > Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I pretty sure it was that > Bilbo told everyone a story where he simply met with Gollum, had a > little riddle game with him, won and Gollum had to show him the way > out and he gave him his ring willingly. Pretty close, as far as I know. The only difference that I know is that Bilbo still found the Ring himself, and that Gollum had originally promised to give it to Bilbo if Bilbo won the riddle game. When he discovered that the Ring was gone, his sense of honor forced him to give a different gift: showing Bilbo the way out. They parted on good terms, at any rate. To understand a little better what each version of the story was, we can refer to the "story internal" explanation of the discrepancy: Bilbo actually told THREE versions of the Gollum story over the course of his life. The first was talking to the Dwarves after his escape: he left out all mention of the Ring, and indicated that Gollum had planned to show Bilbo the way out as his prize all along. The second was when he told the Dwarves about the Ring in Mirkwood: he gave the story I've outlined above, in which he found the Ring and was shown the way out as a replacement prize (this is the version that he actually wrote in his diary, in the "story internal" sense, which "explains" its presence in the first version of _The Hobbit_). The third was the version that he told to Gandalf, Frodo, and the Council of Elrond: the "true" story in which Gollum tried to kill him (and which was "substituted" into Bilbo's account in later editions of _The Hobbit_). I hope that helps! At some point, I really want to get my hands on a copy of _The Annotated Hobbit_ so that I can see the original text! Steuard Jensen ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue Shift) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Hobbit Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 19:10:18 -0700 Organization: Collective against Consensual Sanity Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <8oec37$r6o$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <39AAC762.65532D6A@po-box.mcgill.ca> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!c172.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26592 / I hope that helps! At some point, I really want to get my hands on a / copy of _The Annotated Hobbit_ so that I can see the original text! I think it was posted years ago, so maybe deja has it on some dusty disc drive. Or it might be at some http site. =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Sign up for WASHINGTON MUTUAL BANK's special We Rob You While You Sleep Service TODAY! =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 pretty pretty http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/ All new and improved web pages! Bookmark yours today! :)-free zone. Elect LUM World Dictator! ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue Shift) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Hobbit Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 19:58:43 -0700 Organization: Collective against Consensual Sanity Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <20000828234424.05283.00000140@nso-ce.aol.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!c172.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26593 / If our resident protectors of rights of the Tolkien Estate, ;¬), agree / that it would fall under "fair use", I'll see about typing it out and posting / it tomorrow. With USA law it has to do with how much is copied and how it effects the marketability of the original. / "Everything and anything about a culture can be inferred fom the shape of its / language..." — Jubal Harshaw Also known as Whorf Hypothesis. Which is wrong. =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Sign up for WASHINGTON MUTUAL BANK's special We Rob You While You Sleep Service TODAY! =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 pretty pretty http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/ All new and improved web pages! Bookmark yours today! :)-free zone. Elect LUM World Dictator! ###### Lines: 27 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: pbachjson@aol.compart (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 29 Aug 2000 03:44:24 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: The Hobbit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000828234424.05283.00000140@nso-ce.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26580 In article , mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue Shift) writes: >/ I hope that helps! At some point, I really want to get my hands on a >/ copy of _The Annotated Hobbit_ so that I can see the original text! > >I think it was posted years ago, so maybe deja has it on some dusty disc >drive. Or it might be at some http site. If our resident protectors of rights of the Tolkien Estate, ;¬), agree that it would fall under "fair use", I'll see about typing it out and posting it tomorrow. I'm on vacation and my original plans were inconvienenced when I found out the monks at the monastary I wanted to spend a few days at were all in California for the opening of a new monastary. I really would like some comment on the ethics of posting two or three pages of uninterrupted text. Stan? Steuard? I think it would be "fair use" but I'll go with a stricter interpretation if it seems to be the concensus, prefering to err on the side of caution. PaulB "Everything and anything about a culture can be inferred fom the shape of its language..." — Jubal Harshaw ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Hobbit References: <20000828234424.05283.00000140@nso-ce.aol.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 38 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 967525222 128.135.12.7 (Tue, 29 Aug 2000 00:00:22 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 00:00:22 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 05:00:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26563 Quoth pbachjson@aol.compart (PaulB): [I wrote:] > >/ At some point, I really want to get my hands on a copy of _The > >/ Annotated Hobbit_ so that I can see the original text! > If our resident protectors of rights of the Tolkien Estate > agree that it would fall under "fair use", I'll see about typing it > out and posting it tomorrow. Oy. I'm honestly not sure what the story is on this. I think that _legally_, the original text remains copyrighted even when superseded and very thoroughly out of print, so it may well depend on the date of the most recent copyright of the original version of _The Hobbit_. I'm not even going to try to figure out an authoritative date for that one, but I'm pretty sure it's still in force (for example, Project Gutenberg for the most part only distributes books written before 1923, according to one of their FAQs). As for a fair use argument, it's a bit tricky. My intuition (utterly untrained, mind you!) is that the full passage (it's probably the whole chapter, or close to it, right?) would exceed fair use, but I don't know if it would be the sort of thing that anyone would bother to prosecute. That leaves moral arguments. Um. Considering the near-complete unavailability of this passage these days, it's hard to claim that making it available on a relatively small scale would be particularly immoral. On the other hand, as I'm thinking about it, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't post it myself, or host it on a web page, or probably even feel comfortable emailing it to others on a request basis. When it comes right down to it, I think I'd feel weird about even reading the chapter. This isn't a moral statement based on pure utilitarian reasoning, but just a gut level impression: in your shoes, I'd just say, "Sorry, Steuard... just get a copy of _The Annotated Hobbit_ already!" :) Others may, as always, disagree. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: "O. Sharp" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Hobbit Date: 29 Aug 2000 13:57:01 GMT Organization: I Want That "Twilight Zone" Stopwatch! Lines: 12 Message-ID: <8ogffd$kgi$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> References: <20000828234424.05283.00000140@nso-ce.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.72 User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990517 ("Psychonaut") (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feeder.via.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26591 May I suggest someone read it, write a paragraph or two noting the primary differences in events and tone between that and the "canonical" version, and illustrate that with a couple of appropriate quotes from the two versions? That would adequately address the copyright aspects. I'd do it myself if I had a few little things like... oh... a copy of _The Annotated Hobbit_, for example. And spare time, for another. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ohh@netcom.com Which begs the question of what the hell I'm doing on Usenet this morning, I admit. :) ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Hobbit Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 12:11:41 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <20000828234424.05283.00000140@nso-ce.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.cc.cd X-Server-Date: 29 Aug 2000 16:11:32 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!paloalto-snh1.gtei.net!lsanca1-snf1!news.gtei.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26560 [This followup was also e-mailed to the cited author .] PaulB wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >In article , >mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue Shift) writes: > I really would like some comment on the ethics of posting two or three >pages of uninterrupted text. Stan? Steuard? I think it would be "fair use" >but I'll go with a stricter interpretation if it seems to be the concensus, >prefering to err on the side of caution. I don't pretend to be a lawyer, but since you asked.... To the best of my understanding that would fall somewhere between "doubtful" and "clearly a violation of copyright". On rereading this before sending, I think it's more toward the latter end. Though I'm sure your motives are good, my view (for what it's worth) is that it would not be fair use. One criterion for justifying "fair use" is that it does not cut into sales. (Not cutting into sales, viz. author's revenues, is the whole justification for copyright: assuring authors the fruits of their labors encourages them to create, to the benefit of all society.) Posting a long extract, specifically so that people would *not* have to get it from the original book, could certainly tend to cut into sales. A rough-and-ready rule of thumb is that the extract should not only be small relative to to the original work, but be small relative to the volume of original commentary that appears with it. What I would suggest is that you post a summary, in your own words. Then copyright issues do not arise.(I say "would suggest", meaning that I would suggest it if it hadn't already been done by someone else.) For those who can't afford a purchase of even a used copy, or prefer not to purchase, these books (pre-1951 /Hobbit/ editions, and /The Annotated Hobbit/) can be had from practically any library. (I have suggested this again and again, to apparently deaf ears. Why are people so reluctant to get something from a library, for which after all we are all paying already?) If one's own library doesn't have them, it can probably get them via interlibrary loan in less than a month. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: jbohen@compuserve.com (James V. Bohen) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Hobbit Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 16:37:48 GMT Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services Lines: 20 Message-ID: <39abe60f.1511296@news.compuserve.com> References: <20000828234424.05283.00000140@nso-ce.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mid-tgn-mov-vty38.as.wcom.net X-Trace: sshuraaa-i-1.production.compuserve.com 967567352 3124 216.192.92.38 (29 Aug 2000 16:42:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: newsmaster@compuserve.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Aug 2000 16:42:32 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!news.compuserve.com!news-master.compuserve.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26588 On Tue, 29 Aug 2000 12:11:41 -0400, brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) wrote: >For those who can't afford a purchase of even a used copy, or prefer >not to purchase, these books (pre-1951 /Hobbit/ editions, and >/The Annotated Hobbit/) can be had from practically any library. (I >have suggested this again and again, to apparently deaf ears. Why >are people so reluctant to get something from a library, for which >after all we are all paying already?) If one's own library doesn't >have them, it can probably get them via interlibrary loan in less >than a month. > At the libraries to which I have access, I find that long-popular books like LotR and The Hobbit tend to get damaged over the years, the damaged copies are discarded, and replacements are never bought. (Or else the volumes are checked out, never returned and never replaced.) When I return to libraries from which I borrowed various Tolkien titles a decade or more ago, the books are no longer on the shelves. Jim Bohen ###### From: pbachjson@aol.compart (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Hobbit Lines: 54 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 29 Aug 2000 18:16:02 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000829141602.26039.00000144@nso-ci.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26581 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: >As for a fair use argument, it's a bit tricky. My intuition (utterly >untrained, mind you!) is that the full passage (it's probably the >whole chapter, or close to it, right?) would exceed fair use, but I >don't know if it would be the sort of thing that anyone would bother >to prosecute. Actually, it's less than half the chapter, as the riddles and such remain the same. >That leaves moral arguments. Um. Considering the near-complete >unavailability of this passage these days, it's hard to claim that >making it available on a relatively small scale would be particularly >immoral. On the other hand, as I'm thinking about it, I'm pretty sure >that I wouldn't post it myself, or host it on a web page, or probably >even feel comfortable emailing it to others on a request basis. When >it comes right down to it, I think I'd feel weird about even reading >the chapter. For you Steuard, I'll post it separately from these comments so you can avoid it if you wish. >This isn't a moral statement based on pure utilitarian >reasoning, but just a gut level impression: in your shoes, I'd just >say, "Sorry, Steuard... just get a copy of _The Annotated Hobbit_ >already!" :) > >Others may, as always, disagree. :) > Steuard Jensen > Well, as you the only I've seen a response from yet, I'm going to post it. The moral argument is probably the strongest you present, but as both the original TH, and _The Annotated Hobbit_ are out of print, I'm not too troubled by it. (Unless TAH was publish precisely to give a new lease on life to the coppyright, just as _Ulysses_ was re-published a number of years ago to keep it "fresh" and help Random House retain its rights to it. TAH was published just about 50/51 years after TH. I don't know it that is significant in Copyright law.) As far as "fair use" goes, the passage is so utterly different from the present version that presenting it in its entirety is the only way to do it. Therefore, I think that in presenting the minimum possible, which also hapens to be the entirety of this one section, I'll be complying with "fair use" in it's spirit, presenting only that whichexposes the differences between the texts and no more. PaulB "Everything and anything about a culture can be inferred fom the shape of its language..." — Jubal Harshaw ###### From: "Dave Newton" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Hobbit Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 19:19:24 +0100 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 14 Message-ID: <8oguna$3fd$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> References: <20000828234424.05283.00000140@nso-ce.aol.com> <39abe60f.1511296@news.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: host213-1-83-160.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!psiuk-p4!uknet!btnet-peer0!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26594 Hmmm, that seems to have stirred something up! A long quote is certainly out of the question (in my opinion) and I, as the originator of this thread, wouldn't want it in any case. I only had in mind a summary of the differences and that only out of idle curiosity. As for libraries holding an old copy, I think not. Tolkiens works are well thumbed and often replaced. Just on the off chance though I will call in and ask, you never know your luck. Thanks to all who answered... -- Dave Newton http://www.btinternet.com/~davenewton ###### From: LESDL Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Hobbit Organization: Tertiary Adjunct Of Unimatrix Zero One Message-ID: <5d0oqssgfd5trpvs026vmp5uamdp2opctk@4ax.com> References: <8oec37$r6o$1@uranium.btinternet.com> <39AAC762.65532D6A@po-box.mcgill.ca> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 14:42:19 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.58.158.13 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shore.net X-Trace: news.shore.net 967574121 209.58.158.13 (Tue, 29 Aug 2000 14:35:21 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 14:35:21 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.shore.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26599 On Mon, 28 Aug 2000 20:32:31 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) squinted and tapped out: >Quoth Carl Blondin : >> Dave Newton wrote: >> > In The Hobbit, prior to the actual text, there is a 'Note on the >> > text' stating that from 1951 there is a significant revision in >> > the chapter 'Riddles in the Dark' to take account of a story >> > change in the Lord Of The Rings. > >> Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I pretty sure it was that >> Bilbo told everyone a story where he simply met with Gollum, had a >> little riddle game with him, won and Gollum had to show him the way >> out and he gave him his ring willingly. > >Pretty close, as far as I know. The only difference that I know is >that Bilbo still found the Ring himself, and that Gollum had >originally promised to give it to Bilbo if Bilbo won the riddle game. >When he discovered that the Ring was gone, his sense of honor forced >him to give a different gift: showing Bilbo the way out. They parted >on good terms, at any rate. I would point you to Letter #128 and the note that goes along with it, and #129. Explanations of the reason for the revision is given. It basically has to do with how the development of Gollum's part of the story (in LOTR) wouldn't have gone along with the original accounting. As stated, Gollum was very apologetic at not being able to come up his promised reward, in said original accounting. -- LESDL 74" Asshole(tm) 24 lb BS SENS http://eddiekieger.com ###### From: pbachjson@aol.compart (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Hobbit Lines: 68 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 29 Aug 2000 19:34:34 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000829153434.11050.00000216@nso-fw.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26583 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >One criterion for justifying "fair use" is that it does not cut into >sales. (Not cutting into sales, viz. author's revenues, is the whole >justification for copyright: assuring authors the fruits of their >labors encourages them to create, to the benefit of all society.) >Posting a long extract, specifically so that people would *not* have >to get it from the original book, could certainly tend to cut into >sales. A rough-and-ready rule of thumb is that the extract should >not only be small relative to to the original work, but be small >relative to the volume of original commentary that appears with it. > > I'm reading this after I posted today, so sorry if it sounds like justifiacation after the fact, i.e. rationalization, but I did think about this when reading Steuard's post before posting the passage. Re: Cutting into sales. Since all editions with the pertinent passages are out of print, and I did not supply _the currently published passage_, and are not available for puchase anymore in a fashion that would gain the copyright holders additional income, I do not see how this cuts into profits. The quoted passage, running ~11.9K bytes of text, has been replaced by ~21.8K bytes of text with which it has very little specific similarities. (1) If there had been more overlap between the two texts I might have considered paraphrasing as you suggested, but as the differeces were significant and little overall was left word for word the same, I believe that for study and comparison by others, posting can be considered "fair use." I would _not_, however, consider posting the entire Appendix A, as I feel that would violate the rights of not so much the Tolkien Estate — although I think it might and would want to go that far in arguing otherwise — but of Douglas A. Anderson, who edited TAH, and compiled the Appendices. (2) If he does not have copyright on the passages themeselves, both his comments, in fact, and his work in the actually compiling, in spirit if not in fact, should be respected under copyright law. I might have been a little more on the fence if I had read you comments beforehand, and I might not have done it, but I don't think that I would have any qualms doing it had I disregarded your points of argument. (Well maybe a bit, as I do respect your opinion, as well as Steuard's) I guess that's what sitting on the fence _means_. Your other point, as to their availability at libraries, is a little overly optimistic. In looking at the catalogues of most of the area libraies in my state the editions owned seem to be of one of the more common, revised varieties, 1951 or later. There might be one or two copies of TAH in Connecticut, but I don't believe that this plethora is any reason not to post a section of a single chapter for the curious and legitimately interested, which all of us here in r.a.b.t. qualify as one way or another. (1) The chapter sans either passage is just over 27K, so the 1937 version constitutes closer to 1/4 than 1/3 of the chapter as a whole in the 1937 edition, while the 1951 version is over 2/5 of its respective chapter. (2) Actually my bigger concern, which I hope to rectify in this note, is that I failed to credit Douglas A. Anderson, who I paraphrased or quoted in the comments putting the texts in their proper places whithin the 1951 edition. I certainly don't believe that the this usage is a violation of fair use, but do admit that proper credit should have been given where justly due. My apologies. PaulB "Everything and anything about a culture can be inferred fom the shape of its language..." — Jubal Harshaw ###### From: "Androg" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000829141602.26039.00000144@nso-ci.aol.com> Subject: Re: The Hobbit Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 08:45:22 +1000 Lines: 38 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com Message-ID: <39ac2fb7$1@casper.southcom.com.au> X-Trace: 29 Aug 2000 21:48:39 GMT, delta.tavultesoft.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.labyrinth.net.au!casper.southcom.com.au!delta.tavultesoft.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26586 In the edition I have (1965), there's still a reference to the present Gollum was going to give to Bilbo, even though he had promised to show him the way out: "Does it guess easy? It must have a competition with us, my preciouss! If precious asks, and it doesn't answer, we eats it, my preciousss. If it asks, and we doesn't answer, then we does what it wants, eh? We shows it the way out, yes!" "All right!" said Bilbo, not daring to disagree, and nearly bursting his brain to think of riddles that could save him from being eaten. ... An eye in a blue face Saw an eye in a green face. "That eye is like to this eye" Said the first eye, "But in low place, Not in high place." "Ss, ss, ss," said Gollum. He had been underground a long long time, and was forgetting this sort of thing. But just as Bilbo was beginning to wonder what Gollum's present would be like, Gollum brought up memories of ages and ages and ages before, when he lived with his grandmother in a hole in a bank by a river, "Sss, sss, my preciouss," he said. "Sun on the daisies it means, it does." -- Andróg "Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncúthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescéne land, eardgeard elfa, and ésa bliss." ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Hobbit Date: 30 Aug 2000 03:47:28 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 46 Message-ID: <6uog2bikpb.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <20000829141602.26039.00000144@nso-ci.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 967600050 708 10.0.3.2 (30 Aug 2000 01:47:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Aug 2000 01:47:30 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26601 pbachjson@aol.compart (PaulB) writes: > by it. (Unless TAH was publish precisely to give a new lease on life to the > coppyright, just as _Ulysses_ was re-published a number of years ago to keep it > "fresh" and help Random House retain its rights to it. TAH was published just > about 50/51 years after TH. I don't know it that is significant in Copyright > law.) Multiple objections to that: 1 Legally copyright runs out 75 after the authors death. Tolkien is not dead that long, not do I think is the author of Ulysses. 2 copyright can not be given "a new lease on life". Once it is over, it is over, for ever. The text then belongs to the public. 3 The reason you get "annotated" etc versions on not-anymore-copyrighted texts is so that the publisher can "add value" to make you buy their version and not anyone elses (or download from Project Gutenberg). Its a classical "competition makes a better product" thing. One further reason why such long monopolies on publication are bad for the consumer. > As far as "fair use" goes, the passage is so utterly different from the > present version that presenting it in its entirety is the only way to do it. > Therefore, I think that in presenting the minimum possible, which also hapens > to be the entirety of this one section, I'll be complying with "fair use" in > it's spirit, presenting only that whichexposes the differences between the > texts and no more. IMHO you are in "fair use". So the legal stuff should be OK. As for the moralic, you are definitely OK, as the estate is soley to blaim for letting it go "out of print". If they want money they should sell it [1]. [1] IMNSHO if authors/estate want an monopoly on sales "to ensure that they get paid", then this should come with an obligation to keep it in print. Not meeting this obligation proves they are not intent on making money, and so copyright should expire, just like trademarks expire if they are not defended. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000829141602.26039.00000144@nso-ci.aol.com> <39ac2fb7$1@casper.southcom.com.au> Subject: Re: The Hobbit Lines: 38 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.10.114 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 967603445 212.151.10.114 (Wed, 30 Aug 2000 04:44:05 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 04:44:05 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-10-114.swipnet.se Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 04:46:32 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26614 Conrad Dunkerson hath written: [snip] >Very nice catch. Yeah, I tend to believe that alot of the oddities >which inspire extensive debate and questioning are examples of this >sort of oversight... stray references to an earlier variant being >overlooked during revisions. Offhand I can think of; > >'the nine the nazgul keep' > >The nazgul like thing which the Fellowship spots west of the >mountains... when the nazgul were not yet allowed west of the >Anduin. > >The whole Thrain I & II fiasco. > > >I know I'm forgetting several (dozens). It comes up quite a bit >despite Tolkien's attention to detail. Here are a couple more: In one place, Gollum says that he only has four teeth left. In another, we are told that his "white teeth gleamed". The references to Galadriel as an "Elven queen" contra the fact that Tolkien states in othe places that she was not a queen. The different statements about Aragorn's age in the appendices - 190 according to the main text, 210 if one uses the timeline given. Öjevind Öjevind ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Hobbit Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 23:20:17 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <20000829141602.26039.00000144@nso-ci.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.cd.95 X-Server-Date: 30 Aug 2000 03:20:09 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26623 PaulB wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > As far as "fair use" goes, the passage is so utterly different from the >present version that presenting it in its entirety is the only way to do it. >Therefore, I think that in presenting the minimum possible, which also hapens >to be the entirety of this one section, I'll be complying with "fair use" in >it's spirit, What's done is done, but I don't think this holds water. After all, *any* copyright work is utterly different from a blank page, so by the above argument quoting any copyright work in full would be fair use. That's an absurd result, as I'm sure you would agree; therefore the premise must be false. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Hobbit Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 23:25:12 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <20000829153434.11050.00000216@nso-fw.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.cd.95 X-Server-Date: 30 Aug 2000 03:25:03 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!falcon.america.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26621 PaulB wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > Re: Cutting into sales. > Since all editions with the pertinent passages are out of print, Something you may not have thought about is cutting into *future* sales. In other words, if unauthorized copies are posted, there is that much less incentive for the publishers to reprint the edition in question -- by which I mean /The Annotated Hobbit/. I doubt there'd be much of a market for the 1937 /Hobbit/, though I might be wrong there too. But remember that "cutting into sales" is just one aspect. here are others, like volume of extract versus volume of commentary, volume of extract versus volume of original (100%, in this case, since it's only the changes that are at issue), and so on. I'm not trying to bash you: I know you considered these points or at least some points, NOT just blindly saying "I can do it, so I will" as some people do. So I hope you take these as constructive suggestions for things to think about in the future. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Hobbit Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 00:39:13 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 3 Message-ID: <9fepqs4d956j8rlchageomh9vrfvj4sc06@4ax.com> References: <20000829141602.26039.00000144@nso-ci.aol.com> <6uog2bikpb.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.atl!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26624 >Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ >Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic, >Legal Moron, Jackass, and general Troll ###### From: "Androg" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000829141602.26039.00000144@nso-ci.aol.com> <39ac2fb7$1@casper.southcom.com.au> Subject: Re: The Hobbit Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 18:36:12 +1000 Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com Message-ID: <39acb9ab@casper.southcom.com.au> X-Trace: 30 Aug 2000 07:37:15 GMT, delta.tavultesoft.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.labyrinth.net.au!casper.southcom.com.au!delta.tavultesoft.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26607 Öjevind Lång wrote in message news:Vx_q5.2292$Fl2.20833@nntpserver.swip.net... > > Here are a couple more: > > In one place, Gollum says that he only has four teeth left. In another, we > are told that his "white teeth gleamed". Four teeth is still teeth: four white teeth can still gleam; I'm not sure what you are trying to point out with this example... (also, Gollum says "we has only six" teeth, not four teeth, but that doesn't alter my above comment). -- Andróg "Fela bith on Westwegum werum uncúthra, wundra and wihta, wlitescéne land, eardgeard elfa, and ésa bliss." ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue Shift) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Hobbit Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 04:13:41 -0700 Organization: Collective against Consensual Sanity Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <20000829141602.26039.00000144@nso-ci.aol.com> <39ac2fb7$1@casper.southcom.com.au> <39acb9ab@casper.southcom.com.au> <39ACC65D.250066FB@snakebite.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!gestalt.direcpc.com.!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!c148.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26620 / Pretty hard to bite off a finger with only 6 teeth, wouldn't you say? The Only takes two teeth, opposing incisors, at the joint. The problem isn't the teeth, but the jaw muscles. =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Sign up for WASHINGTON MUTUAL BANK's special We Rob You While You Sleep Service TODAY! =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 pretty pretty http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/ All new and improved web pages! Bookmark yours today! :)-free zone. Elect LUM World Dictator! ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) Subject: Re: The Hobbit X-Nntp-Posting-Host: dvp.cs.toronto.edu Message-ID: <2000Aug30.105750.2889@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Organization: CSLab, University of Toronto References: <20000829141602.26039.00000144@nso-ci.aol.com> <6uog2bikpb.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Date: 30 Aug 2000 14:57:50 GMT Lines: 9 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!torn!utnut!utcsri!cs.toronto.edu!tbarrie Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26617 In article <6uog2bikpb.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: >2 copyright can not be given "a new lease on life". Once it is over, it > is over, for ever. The text then belongs to the public. Nonsense. It's very easy to give copyright a new lease on life, provided you have Disney-like wealth: just tell the US Congress to change the law for you and they will. ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Hobbit Date: 31 Aug 2000 00:55:00 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 45 Message-ID: <6u7l8y8im3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <20000829141602.26039.00000144@nso-ci.aol.com> <6uog2bikpb.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <9fepqs4d956j8rlchageomh9vrfvj4sc06@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 967676100 1153 10.0.3.2 (30 Aug 2000 22:55:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Aug 2000 22:55:00 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26628 the softrat writes: > >Legal Moron, Jackass, and general Troll Wow! What a short expression of hatred. No addressing of arguments which may disturb the air of supperiority. No matter how much I dislike Conrads action, I will credit him with taking time to civilly discuss the issues raised. He may be wrong headed, you just seem to be a jerk. Hmmm wait, you were also the author of this bit of mail: ------------ From: the softrat To: Neil Franklin Subject: Re: OT: copyright (was Re: electronic text opinions?) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 00:20:24 -0700 Message-ID: I find your arguments simplistic, self-serving, and stupid. I rejoice that your opinions are in a minority. I see that you know nothing of the law. Arguing with you is futile. Bye! On 08 Sep 1999 16:47:13 +0200, in rec.arts.books.tolkien Neil Franklin wrote: >Could you point out where that is supposed to be? Copyright is an >diffferent physics, different economics, different behaviour. the softrat ------- PS I win! I'm in the majority! Intellectual Property Rules! ------------- At least this time you publically stand to your posting. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Hobbit Date: 31 Aug 2000 00:57:20 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6u1yz68ii7.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <20000829141602.26039.00000144@nso-ci.aol.com> <6uog2bikpb.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <2000Aug30.105750.2889@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 967676240 1153 10.0.3.2 (30 Aug 2000 22:57:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Aug 2000 22:57:21 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26629 tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) writes: > In article <6uog2bikpb.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, > Neil Franklin wrote: > > >2 copyright can not be given "a new lease on life". Once it is over, it > > is over, for ever. The text then belongs to the public. > > Nonsense. It's very easy to give copyright a new lease on life, provided > you have Disney-like wealth: just tell the US Congress to change the law > for you and they will. OK. They have after all done this repeatedly. You got me on that one. :-) -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000829141602.26039.00000144@nso-ci.aol.com> <39ac2fb7$1@casper.southcom.com.au> <39acb9ab@casper.southcom.com.au> <39ACC65D.250066FB@snakebite.com> <8oj8en$h88$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39AE8DD6.A97B3E26@snakebite.com> Subject: Re: The Hobbit Lines: 35 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.99.55 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 967836872 212.151.99.55 (Fri, 01 Sep 2000 21:34:32 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 21:34:32 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: s-774765@d212-151-99-55.swipnet.se Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 21:36:59 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26745 Randy Simcox hath written: >Chine Blu Shift Wrote: >> >Pretty hard to bite off a finger with only 6 teeth, wouldn't you say? The > >> Only takes two teeth, opposing incisors, at the joint. The problem isn't >> the teeth, but the jaw muscles. > >and > >David Sulger wrote: >> >> In article <39ACC65D.250066FB@snakebite.com>, >> Randy Simcox wrote: >> >> > Pretty hard to bite off a finger with only 6 teeth, wouldn't you say? >> >> I suppose it would depend on where those teeth were and how sharp they >> were. > >I didn't say impossible, I said hard. Unless Gollum lost his teeth in a >non-random way it would have been a struggle to line up two teeth that would >snap off a finger. With 6 teeth that probably means 3 top and 3 bottom, or maybe >two and four. I guess he had to gum off Frodo's digit. Perhaps he got very hard and sharp gums from having chewed the rag with Shelob. Öjevind ###### From: Tangoguru Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Hobbit Date: Mon, 04 Sep 2000 10:45:46 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <8ovugo$h9n$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20000829141602.26039.00000144@nso-ci.aol.com> <39ac2fb7$1@casper.southcom.com.au> <39acb9ab@casper.southcom.com.au> <39ACC65D.250066FB@snakebite.com> <8oj8en$h88$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39AE8DD6.A97B3E26@snakebite.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.143.8.10 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Sep 04 10:45:46 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 ics_server.netcommander.com (ICS 1.2.94), 1.0 x67.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.143.8.10 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtangoguru Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26824 My theory on Gollum's finger gnawing magic: He is OLD, folks! He may have only six teeth left, but I bet he also has very little gum left as well. This would mean that he might have exposed bone in that mouth. His teeth would be chewed down to almost nothing, anyway. I bet he basically had exposed bone for chewin with a few stubs of teeth in there for good measure. Toddle Pip Tangoguru Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Robert Carnegie Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Hobbit Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2000 12:26:02 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 50 Message-ID: <8p2oog$cof$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20000829141602.26039.00000144@nso-ci.aol.com> <39ac2fb7$1@casper.southcom.com.au> <39acb9ab@casper.southcom.com.au> <39ACC65D.250066FB@snakebite.com> <8oj8en$h88$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 62.253.249.253 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Sep 05 12:26:02 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.5; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 ECSUNURS1, 1.0 x59.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 62.253.249.253 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDrja_carnegie Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26820 In article , "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > David Sulger hath written: > > > Randy Simcox wrote: > > > >> Pretty hard to bite off a finger with only 6 teeth, wouldn't you say? > > > >I suppose it would depend on where those teeth were and how sharp they > >were. > > Come off it! Tolkien simply slipped up, and you know it. Probably so. "Homer nodded," as they say - but we can forgive him, surely? Or else - Perhaps Gollum was _lying_ about his teeth. When did he say he didn't have any? And to whom did he say it? Was he trying to come across as non-threatening? ("I won't eat you") or - Perhaps his teeth grow back in like sharks'? But Gollum and the hobbits are essentially of the race of Men, who only get two goes at growing teeth in their lives - although eating nothing but fish for a very, /very/ long time, while wearing a magic ring, might have an odd effect. - When he was in the elves' prison, they gave him dentures. This is unlikely too - he hates the taste of elvish things, so would he continue to use elf-dentures and elf-fixative? - Or he made his own! From fishes' teeths and fisheses' jaws, possibly, yess. His probable lack of teeth may account for the ssibilansse with whichhh hiss sspeechhh iss punctssuated. Robert Carnegie Glassgow, Ssscotland Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.