Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Correct Plurals (was Re: Why didn't Beren kill Morgoth?) References: <8nf5ep$ss4$1@troll.powertech.no> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 20 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 966834661 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 21 Aug 2000 00:11:01 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 00:11:01 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 05:11:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26234 Quoth brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown): > Juho P. Pahajoki wrote: > >This use of plural in place of singular (and vice versa?) is moaned > >every now and then. I think it comes from the fact that people > >don't know Quenya or Sindarin and therefore don't really see any > >meaningful difference in the singular/plural. > >Maybe one of the FAQs should mention this. > Sounds good to me. Steuard? Hmm. It's not really the sort of thing that I had in mind when I created the FAQ, but when you come right down to it, the whole netiquette section is basically a condensed version of my own nitpickiness. I'll tell you what: if the groups can put together a list of commonly mangled singular/plural pairs (or any other Tolkien-related words that are frequently confused, for that matter), I'll eventually try to get it into the FAQ. :) Probably not a bad idea, and it shouldn't take too much space. Steuard Jensen ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Correct Plurals (was Re: Why didn't Beren kill Morgoth?) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 10:51:03 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 50 Message-ID: References: <8nf5ep$ss4$1@troll.powertech.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.cf.e2 X-Server-Date: 21 Aug 2000 14:50:45 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26231 [This followup was also e-mailed to the cited author.] Steuard Jensen wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > I'll tell you what: if the groups can put together a >list of commonly mangled singular/plural pairs (or any other >Tolkien-related words that are frequently confused, for that matter), >I'll eventually try to get it into the FAQ. :) Here's my suggestion for a starting point: One way to drive some people up the wall is to say "Maiar" (plural) when you mean "Maia" (singular). While you might not see that as a drawback, it does have a high probability of diverting attention away from what you're actually trying to say. Someone very likely will jump on that misuse and not even reply to your main point, then others will jump in to argue about whether getting the language right is important, who started flaming whom, whether a single shot killed John F. Kennedy, and so on. Since Tolkien's writing is infused everywhere with his love of language, including his invented languages, some of us would argue that if we love his works we'll get the languages right. Just as you wouldn't say Beren was *"a Men" or Lúthien was *"an Elves", you shouldn't say Manwë was *"a Valar". You don't need to know the grammatical rules of any Elvish language; just use the words as you see them used in Tolkien's books. Here's a list of the ones most commonly misused, with the correct singular preceding the plural. They're arranged more or less by frequency of occurrence. singular plural -------- ------ a Vala Valar a Maia Maiar a Istar Istari an Ainu Ainur an Adan Edain an Elda Eldar -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Correct Plurals (was Re: Why didn't Beren kill Morgoth?) References: <8nf5ep$ss4$1@troll.powertech.no> Reply-To: coren@spdcc.com Organization: Pigs in Blankets From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8Dbo5.38566$_s1.481896@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 15:09:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.237.113 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 966870596 24.128.237.113 (Mon, 21 Aug 2000 11:09:56 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 11:09:56 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!bignews.mediaways.net!xfer10.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc03.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26230 In article , Stan Brown wrote: >[This followup was also e-mailed to the cited author.] > >Steuard Jensen wrote in >rec.arts.books.tolkien: >> I'll tell you what: if the groups can put together a >>list of commonly mangled singular/plural pairs (or any other >>Tolkien-related words that are frequently confused, for that matter), >>I'll eventually try to get it into the FAQ. :) > >Here's my suggestion for a starting point: > > >One way to drive some people up the wall is to say "Maiar" (plural) >when you mean "Maia" (singular). [etc., excellent suggestion excised] While we're at it, maybe we should add a list of strongly deprecated [1] misspellings, starting with "Illuvatar" and "Tolkein". [1] Only because nobody has the power to enforce "forbidden". -- ---Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)------- "I once had a very surreal Marengo with Derik." --Jeffrey William Sandris ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Correct Plurals (was Re: Why didn't Beren kill Morgoth?) Date: 21 Aug 2000 23:32:57 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 31 Message-ID: <6uya1qgv06.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <8nf5ep$ss4$1@troll.powertech.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 966893577 812 10.0.3.2 (21 Aug 2000 21:32:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Aug 2000 21:32:57 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26242 brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > Here's a list of the ones most commonly misused, with the correct > singular preceding the plural. They're arranged more or less by > frequency of occurrence. > > singular plural > -------- ------ > a Vala Valar > a Maia Maiar > a Istar Istari > an Ainu Ainur > an Adan Edain > an Elda Eldar Add one missing race (or perhaps not this one :-)): an Orc Yrch And the various groups of elves: a Noldo Noldor a Vanya Vanyar a Teler Teleri s Sinda Sindar a Nando Nandor -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: Robert Brady Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Correct Plurals (was Re: Why didn't Beren kill Morgoth?) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 16:29:18 +0100 Organization: Customer of Energis Squared Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <8nf5ep$ss4$1@troll.powertech.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-124.effexor.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk 966884420 13713 62.136.91.252 (21 Aug 2000 19:00:20 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Aug 2000 19:00:20 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.16-1 (i586)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26258 Stan Brown wrote: > singular plural > -------- ------ > a Vala Valar > a Maia Maiar > a Istar Istari > an Ainu Ainur > an Adan Edain > an Elda Eldar also, a Noldo Noldor a Vanya Vanyar a Teler Teleri -- Robert ###### From: "Brett Hainley" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8nf5ep$ss4$1@troll.powertech.no> Subject: Re: Correct Plurals (was Re: Why didn't Beren kill Morgoth?) Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 15:11:22 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-ym3X7zHQYKLnia2eumfNXc8funtLOTzmZZUbIlud5Mesx5wK5E1BQ/Rlv2TgI1U7gSJgMcKTv7ZUNj0!0Ij+XzzMITZk82Mkxk0j/+0= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 15:11:55 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26276 Robert Brady wrote in message news:eshrn8.f54.ln@janus.arrow... > Stan Brown wrote: > > > singular plural > > -------- ------ > > a Vala Valar > > a Maia Maiar > > a Istar Istari > > an Ainu Ainur > > an Adan Edain > > an Elda Eldar > > also, > a Noldo Noldor > a Vanya Vanyar > a Teler Teleri > > -- > Robert Instead of reprinting the appendices from all of the Tolkien books, wouldn't it be easier to just say that some people might complain, so be sure you have your forms correct (with a side note to the effect that correcting people's language use in polite conversation is extremely rud)? ###### From: "Brett Hainley" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8nf5ep$ss4$1@troll.powertech.no> Subject: Re: Correct Plurals (was Re: Why didn't Beren kill Morgoth?) Lines: 6 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 15:13:12 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-FjCSjMOZ2mzDpEVwjNQvD/wJdqhhhEjhb4QtgiICf7CTAxFIqZS2HGJAGXC/jRGrEoY18eBj+IANtVx!OuSVkpHabv7NARzxI9PFrQ== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 15:13:45 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer1.nac.net!netnews.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26280 > people's language use in polite conversation is extremely rud)? > Pardon me. The word "rud" should be "rude". ###### From: Robert Brady Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Correct Plurals (was Re: Why didn't Beren kill Morgoth?) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 21:57:23 +0100 Organization: Customer of Energis Squared Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <8nf5ep$ss4$1@troll.powertech.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-112.antimony.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk 966892163 19931 62.136.42.112 (21 Aug 2000 21:09:23 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Aug 2000 21:09:23 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.16-1 (i586)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26253 Brett Hainley wrote: > Instead of reprinting the appendices from all of the Tolkien books, wouldn't > it be easier to just say that some people might complain, so be sure you > have your forms correct (with a side note to the effect that correcting > people's language use in polite conversation is extremely rud)? AFAIK, the singular/plural forms of common Elvish loan-words into English aren't documented in any one place. -- Robert ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8nf5ep$ss4$1@troll.powertech.no> <6uya1qgv06.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Subject: Re: Correct Plurals (was Re: Why didn't Beren kill Morgoth?) Lines: 12 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 22:19:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.112.200 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 966896390 12.78.112.200 (Mon, 21 Aug 2000 22:19:50 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 22:19:50 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.20!wnmasters3!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26265 "Neil Franklin" wrote in message news:6uya1qgv06.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch... > Add one missing race (or perhaps not this one :-)): > an Orc Yrch Though Tolkien used 'Orcs' far more often then 'Yrch'. And then there is 'Uruk'... or 'Atani' for men, and various such 'other language' singulars and plurals not given in the initial list. ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Correct Plurals (was Re: Why didn't Beren kill Morgoth?) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 01:21:51 +0300 Organization: Helsingin Yliopisto Lines: 23 Message-ID: <39A1AB7F.4CAB400E@helsinki.fi> References: <8nf5ep$ss4$1@troll.powertech.no> <6uya1qgv06.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: korpraali.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 966896506 16200 128.214.204.85 (21 Aug 2000 22:21:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Aug 2000 22:21:46 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26251 Neil Franklin wrote: > > brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > > > Here's a list of the ones most commonly misused, with the correct > > singular preceding the plural. They're arranged more or less by > > frequency of occurrence. > > > > singular plural > > -------- ------ > > a Vala Valar > > a Maia Maiar > > a Istar Istari > > an Ainu Ainur > > an Adan Edain > > an Elda Eldar > > Add one missing race (or perhaps not this one :-)): > > an Orc Yrch > In english or westron it is an orc, orcs. Yrch is sindarin if I remeber correctly. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8nf5ep$ss4$1@troll.powertech.no> Subject: Re: Correct Plurals (was Re: Why didn't Beren kill Morgoth?) Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 22:21:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.112.200 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 966896518 12.78.112.200 (Mon, 21 Aug 2000 22:21:58 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 22:21:58 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters3!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26264 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.140b0bdd17228d8098b62c@news.mindspring.com... > a Istar Istari aN Istar > an Ainu Ainur > an Adan Edain > an Elda Eldar Just seemed an odd oversight given the correct form in all the other items of the list. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Correct Plurals (was Re: Why didn't Beren kill Morgoth?) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 16:21:30 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 11 Message-ID: <95d3qsco0nh1le1buobdcr64qh0tj7erto@4ax.com> References: <8nf5ep$ss4$1@troll.powertech.no> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26295 On Mon, 21 Aug 2000 15:11:55 -0500, "Brett Hainley" wrote: >people's language use in polite conversation is extremely rud)? And it makes me so mad when people are 'rud'! the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Help wanted: Telepath. You know where to apply. ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8nf5ep$ss4$1@troll.powertech.no> <6uya1qgv06.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <39A1AB7F.4CAB400E@helsinki.fi> Subject: Re: Correct Plurals (was Re: Why didn't Beren kill Morgoth?) Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 01:35:33 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.62.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.mi.home.com 966908133 24.0.62.34 (Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:35:33 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:35:33 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!feeder.via.net!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.mi.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26286 "Tamim" wrote in message news:39A1AB7F.4CAB400E@helsinki.fi... > Neil Franklin wrote: > > > > brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: > > > > > Here's a list of the ones most commonly misused, with the correct > > > singular preceding the plural. They're arranged more or less by > > > frequency of occurrence. > > > > > > singular plural > > > -------- ------ > > > a Vala Valar > > > a Maia Maiar > > > a Istar Istari > > > an Ainu Ainur > > > an Adan Edain > > > an Elda Eldar > > > > Add one missing race (or perhaps not this one :-)): > > > > an Orc Yrch > > > In english or westron it is an orc, orcs. Yrch is sindarin if I remeber > correctly. Orc/orcs are the anglicized versions of Sindarin orch, pl. yrch. Dave ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Correct Plurals (was Re: Why didn't Beren kill Morgoth?) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 22:38:35 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 14 Message-ID: <9855-39A1E7AB-70@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <6uya1qgv06.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhRNXiZAqB8B6eQbC/YRio5NPH5n1gIUcz086sNke559F197w8fmKso8Bfs= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!ams-newsfeed.speedport.net!newsfeed.speedport.net!newsfeed.online.be!ams.uu.net!ffx.uu.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26249 Neil Franklin wrote: >Add one missing race (or perhaps not >this one :-)): =A0=A0 =A0>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0an Orc =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Yrch I don't think anyone on this group has used Yrch at any time. Everyone just says orcs. Besides, how many people who are likely going to get Sindarin and Quenya plurals wrong are going to think of orc as a Sindarin word? --Dave ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Correct Plurals (was Re: Why didn't Beren kill Morgoth?) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 22:45:41 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 16 Message-ID: <9855-39A1E955-71@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <39A1AB7F.4CAB400E@helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhRp/Ubm1vpoa5FUwaBytoBQlQb+dgIVAIGVkScgDkdn43tidvlpLD4zXyEV Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26247 Tamim wrote: >In english or westron it is an orc, orcs. >Yrch is sindarin if I remember correctly. Technically orc is a Sindarin word; however, Tolkien's use of it in LotR more or less added it to the already bulging lexicon of the English language. Also, Westron might not have used the word ord. Westron is not the same thing as English, rather English was used to represent Westron, much in the same way Old English (or Anglo-Saxon for all you picky pedants out there) is used for the language of the Rohirrim. --Dave ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Correct Plurals (was Re: Why didn't Beren kill Morgoth?) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 00:40:59 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <8nf5ep$ss4$1@troll.powertech.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.cd.36 X-Server-Date: 22 Aug 2000 04:41:17 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!easynews!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26294 Robert Brady wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Stan Brown wrote: > >> singular plural >> -------- ------ >> a Vala Valar >> a Maia Maiar >> a Istar Istari >> an Ainu Ainur >> an Adan Edain >> an Elda Eldar > >also, > a Noldo Noldor > a Vanya Vanyar > a Teler Teleri Yes, excellent. I would place them just after Istar/Istari, based on (rough) frequency. (copy to Steuard in e-mail) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Correct Plurals (was Re: Why didn't Beren kill Morgoth?) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 00:43:06 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <8nf5ep$ss4$1@troll.powertech.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.cd.36 X-Server-Date: 22 Aug 2000 04:43:23 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!easynews!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26297 Conrad Dunkerson wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >"Stan Brown" wrote in message >news:MPG.140b0bdd17228d8098b62c@news.mindspring.com... > >> a Istar Istari > > aN Istar > >> an Ainu Ainur >> an Adan Edain >> an Elda Eldar > >Just seemed an odd oversight given the correct form in all the >other items of the list. D'oh! Well spotted, Conrad! -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Mark Wells Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Correct Plurals (was Re: Why didn't Beren kill Morgoth?) Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: References: <8nf5ep$ss4$1@troll.powertech.no> <6uya1qgv06.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 00:52:55 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.192 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 966930741 198.172.26.192 (Tue, 22 Aug 2000 07:52:21 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 07:52:21 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26293 On 21 Aug 2000 23:32:57 +0200, Neil Franklin wrote: >Add one missing race (or perhaps not this one :-)): > > an Orc Yrch Debatable. 'Yrch' is the plural of Sindarin 'Orch', which is related to 'Orc' and _means_ the same thing as 'Orc', but it's not the same word. an Orc Orcs Orch Yrch Urco Urcor (in Quenya) Speaking of which, did we ever figure out the Sindarin plural of 'Balrog'? I'm still leaning toward 'Belroeg', simply because nobody knows how to pronounce it. ###### From: "AndrĠg" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <39A1AB7F.4CAB400E@helsinki.fi> <9855-39A1E955-71@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Subject: Re: Correct Plurals (was Re: Why didn't Beren kill Morgoth?) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 21:11:44 +1000 Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com Message-ID: <39a2606b$1@casper.southcom.com.au> X-Trace: 22 Aug 2000 11:13:47 GMT, delta.tavultesoft.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.labyrinth.net.au!casper.southcom.com.au!delta.tavultesoft.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26275 David Sulger wrote in message news:9855-39A1E955-71@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net... > > Technically orc is a Sindarin word; however, Tolkien's use of it in LotR > more or less added it to the already bulging lexicon of the English > language. Technically, it is not a Sindarin word; Tolkien drew it from an Old English word 'orc': see Letters:144 or MR p. 422 > Also, Westron might not have used the word ord. Westron is not the same > thing as English, rather English was used to represent Westron, much in > the same way Old English (or Anglo-Saxon for all you picky pedants out > there) is used for the language of the Rohirrim. I think that the use of the form 'Orc' is the Westron word (despite the phonological history of the word); the Sindarin is 'Orch'. Oh, and in my picky pedanticity, I actually prefer the term Old English to Anglo-Saxon; after all, the language was called by its speakers '?nglisc', (basically pronounced "Anglish" (or "Anglisk", depending on the period)) for all those non-Old English-speakers out there; the term Anglo-Saxon is a recent invention. Androg "Fela bi? on Westwegum werum uncu?ra, wundra and wihta, wlitescene land, eardgeard elfa, and esa bliss." ###### From: "Wolfman" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Correct Plurals (was Re: Why didn't Beren kill Morgoth?) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 23:23:36 +0100 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 20 Message-ID: <8oc4fe$ktg$1@uranium.btinternet.com> References: <8nf5ep$ss4$1@troll.powertech.no> NNTP-Posting-Host: host62-6-71-112.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!fr.clara.net!grolier!btnet-peer0!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26532 "Brett Hainley" wrote in message news:s3go5.25$g53.2523@news5.giganews.com... > > people's language use in polite conversation is extremely rud)? > > > > Pardon me. The word "rud" should be "rude". > > Is 'rud' a 'rude' word? It's only got 3 letters... };o)~ -- Blessings Wolfman In Wildness is the Preservation of the Earth. ###### From: "Wolfman" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Correct Plurals (was Re: Why didn't Beren kill Morgoth?) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 23:29:13 +0100 Organization: BT Internet Lines: 14 Message-ID: <8oc4sg$t6s$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> References: <8nf5ep$ss4$1@troll.powertech.no> <6uya1qgv06.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: host62-6-71-112.btinternet.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!news-fra.pop.de!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!grolier!btnet-peer0!btnet!mendelevium.btinternet.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26550 "Mark Wells" wrote in message news:t2c4qs4sromb13b4peh7imj90o883dsmcs@4ax.com... > Speaking of which, did we ever figure out the Sindarin plural of > 'Balrog'? I'm still leaning toward 'Belroeg', simply because nobody > knows how to pronounce it. Could it be 'Balrogi'? All the ones ending in a consonent seem to add an 'i' in the plural... ###### From: tar_elenion@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Correct Plurals (was Re: Why didn't Beren kill Morgoth?) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 01:39:16 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8ocfs2$mie$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8nf5ep$ss4$1@troll.powertech.no> <6uya1qgv06.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8oc4sg$t6s$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.196 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Aug 28 01:39:16 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 ptlum1.sfba.home.com[1809EFD2] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x60.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.196 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26503 In article <8oc4sg$t6s$1@plutonium.btinternet.com>, "Wolfman" wrote: > > "Mark Wells" wrote in message > news:t2c4qs4sromb13b4peh7imj90o883dsmcs@4ax.com... > > > Speaking of which, did we ever figure out the Sindarin plural of > > 'Balrog'? I'm still leaning toward 'Belroeg', simply because nobody > > knows how to pronounce it. > > Could it be 'Balrogi'? All the ones ending in a consonent seem to add an 'i' in > the plural... > > Only in Quenya. Sindarin plurals are formed by vowel changes. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.