From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 08:29:39 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <11110-39962FBA-128@storefull-255.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.ce.f3 X-Server-Date: 13 Aug 2000 12:30:35 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25709 David Sulger wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >When Thorin and his companions are captured by the goblins in the >Hobbit, he quickly babbles on and on about visiting his relatives. But >then, when Thranduil captures him, he clams right up. Does revenge >completely addle dwarves in general, or was this a personal quirk of >Thorin's? I mean, wouldn't it be _far_ more sensible for him to give >Thranduil the same story? Perhaps so, perhaps not. Goblins are portrayed in /Hobbit/ as rather stupid, so it would be reasonable to expect to take them in with a simple story. On the other hand, Elves (even Silvan Elves) were known to be wise, and Thorin probably reasoned that Thranduil would not accept a transparent lie. Of course Dwarves are quickly angered by perceived slights, so Thorin was also reacting from pique at the rough treatment he and his party had got from the Elves, after their bad experiences with the spiders. Remember that even 60 years later, Glóin still resented his treatment at the hands of the Elves of Mirkwood. > Of course, there is also the fact that Thranduil was a _Sindar_ No, he wasn't, any more than I am a Men or Bilbo was a Hobbits. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <11110-39962FBA-128@storefull-255.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness Lines: 15 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 21:32:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.27.88 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 966202341 12.79.27.88 (Sun, 13 Aug 2000 21:32:21 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 21:32:21 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.20!wnmasters3!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25771 "David Sulger" wrote in message news:11110-39962FBA-128@storefull-255.iap.bryant.webtv.net... > Who knows, maybe his soldiers abused Thorin with all sorts of > anti-Khazadic slurs before tragging him before the king. Slurs? Not that it is mentioned. Physical abuse on the other hand... "So to the cave they dragged Thorin - not too gently, for they did not love dwarves..." TH, Flies and Spiders ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 02:53:45 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 32 Message-ID: <24662-39979779-134@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhQSkQZ3O9riyQX8ucZM8Fg9Hj0CBgIVAMvOH9vQ+PeYwekGLp+IacaRONXV Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25743 Stan Brown wrote: >Elves (even Silvan Elves) were known to >be wise, and Thorin probably reasoned >that Thranduil would not accept a >transparent lie. Good point, but he didn't need to be transparent and vague about it as he was with the orcs. Surely all he needed to do was tell Thranduil he was travelling to the Iron Hills. I'm sure Thranduil knew that dwarves lived there. Even if Thorin clammed up afterwards, that might be convincing enough. >Of course Dwarves are quickly angered >by perceived slights, so Thorin was also >reacting from pique at the rough >treatment he and his party had got from >the Elves, Like I said, he's pigheaded. I like dwarves, but sometimes Thorin's stubborness can be a bit excessive. >>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Of course, there is also the fact >>that Thranduil was a _Sindar_ >No, he wasn't, any more than I am a >Men or Bilbo was a Hobbits. Correction: Thranduil was a _Sinda_. Happy? :) --Dave ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 09:09:55 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <24662-39979779-134@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.ce.c4 X-Server-Date: 14 Aug 2000 13:10:39 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!xfer13.netnews.com!xfe11.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25814 David Sulger wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Stan Brown wrote: > >>Elves (even Silvan Elves) were known to be wise, and Thorin probably >>reasoned that Thranduil would not accept a transparent lie. > >Good point, but he didn't need to be transparent and vague about it as >he was with the orcs. Surely all he needed to do was tell Thranduil he >was travelling to the Iron Hills. I'm sure Thranduil knew that dwarves >lived there. Even if Thorin clammed up afterwards, that might be >convincing enough. I agree with your reasoning here. Of course the story-external explanation is the same as for why the Eagles didn't just fly Frodo to Mount Doom: there wouldn't have been much of a story that way. >>>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0Of You might want to tell your newsreader not to emit "Quoted- printable". That's what is causing the above gibberish to appear. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: mnkohrz@gateway.net (Mnkohrz) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness Lines: 42 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.gateway.net X-Admin: news@gateway.net Date: 14 Aug 2000 17:23:48 GMT References: <24662-39979779-134@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Organization: http://www.compuserve.com Message-ID: <20000814132348.09817.00000118@ng-fj1.news.gateway.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25811 >Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness >From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) >Date: 8/14/00 1:53 AM Central Daylight Time >Stan Brown wrote: > >>Elves (even Silvan Elves) were known to >>be wise, and Thorin probably reasoned >>that Thranduil would not accept a >>transparent lie. > >Good point, but he didn't need to be transparent and vague about it as he was with the orcs. Surely all he needed to do was tell Thranduil he was travelling to the Iron Hills. I'm sure Thranduil knew that dwarves lived there. Even if Thorin clammed up afterwards, that might be convincing enough. > >>Of course Dwarves are quickly angered by perceived slights, so Thorin was also reacting from pique at the rough treatment he and his party had got from the Elves, > >Like I said, he's pigheaded. I like dwarves, but sometimes Thorin's stubborness can be a bit excessive. >--Dave Let's not forget that Thprin had, or thought he had, considerable justification for his pride (or arrogance I suppose you might term it.) He was the direct decesdant of Durin - "Lord of the greatest of all the mansions of the Dwarves." He was, at least in terms of rank, Thrainduil's equal and therefore had good reason to be pissed off. Would Thrainduil have treated another lord in the same manner? Thrainduil's interrogation was as inappropriate as if he had interrogated, say, Celeborn or Aragorn. I agree that he might have just said that he was traveling to the Iron Hills, but exactly how effective the lie would have been is debatable. My impression from the map in the Hobbit is that the Iron Hills are actually somewhat north of Mirkwood. Thrainduil would certainly wonder why Thorin did not take a more direct route. Mnkohrz - "The true mystery of human nature is how we can demand that others respect us for who we are while simultaneously expecting them to conform to our own standards." ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:20:31 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 18 Message-ID: <20933-3998A8EF-22@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAjvIVx7PAv2CahP2n5dGFFoRqAtACFE88FUlXYj33fFzV0/WZAWM/uyP+ Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25824 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >Slurs? Not that it is mentioned. Physical >abuse on the other hand... Well, I may have been exaggerating just a litte bit. :) >"So to the cave they dragged Thorin - not >too gently, for they did not love >dwarves..." Well, remember technically the Hobbit is written from Bilbo's pov. The elves might have been insulting, maybe not. If they did insult him, it was likely bad enough that Thorin would not later repeat them to Bilbo. That might have included slurs. :) --Dave ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:26:21 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 27 Message-ID: <20932-3998AA4D-94@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAp8AbnITENmQGUCFUMJCf+Kgwfy4CFG5AfPJUBNbiZSwMzuhwPdnMHKZC Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25823 Stan Brown wrote: >Of course the story-external explanation >is the same as for why the Eagles didn't >just fly Frodo to Mount Doom: there >wouldn't have been much of a story that >way. What do you mean not much of a story? They'd already tangled with trolls, goblins, and wargs, and of course the chief antagonist, Smaug still had to be dealt with. Still plenty of material for story there. >>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A >>Of >You might want to tell your newsreader >not to emit "Quoted- printable". That's >what is causing the above gibberish to >appear. ? I didn't see that in my post. Besides, there are no settings on the WebTV newsreader to change. :( --Dave ###### From: s.souter@edfac.usyd.edu.au (Stephen Souter) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 20:45:50 +1000 Organization: University of Sydney Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <20932-3998AA4D-94@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mac67a36.edfac.usyd.edu.au X-Trace: spacebar.ucc.usyd.edu.au 966336395 18582 129.78.104.195 (15 Aug 2000 10:46:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.usyd.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Aug 2000 10:46:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!xfe11.netnews.com!netnews.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.usyd.edu.au!mac67a36.edfac.usyd.edu.au!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25817 In article <20932-3998AA4D-94@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) wrote: > Stan Brown wrote: > > >Of course the story-external explanation > >is the same as for why the Eagles didn't > >just fly Frodo to Mount Doom: there > >wouldn't have been much of a story that > >way. > > What do you mean not much of a story? They'd already tangled with > trolls, goblins, and wargs, and of course the chief antagonist, Smaug > still had to be dealt with. Still plenty of material for story there. He's referring to the LotR, not The Hobbit. IIRC, in _Letters_ one the objections Tolkien had to a proposed film of the LotR (whose script or treatment had been sent to him) was that the scriptwriter had Frodo et al being flown everywhere by eagles. -- Stephen Souter s.souter@edfac.usyd.edu.au http://www.edfac.usyd.edu.au/staff/souters/ ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:46:18 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 15 Message-ID: <20523-3999F26A-96@storefull-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <20000814132348.09817.00000118@ng-fj1.news.gateway.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhQPvM4U5eiPO+X0WA0PXyHoiwFIvAIVAMIInGV58IbcvqhSy+X/Bd5T8xr5 Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25875 Mnkohrz wrote: >My impression from the map in the >Hobbit is that the Iron Hills are actually >somewhat north of Mirkwood. Thrainduil >would certainly wonder why Thorin did >not take a more direct route. No, the Iron Hills are more or less east from Thranduil's Halls in Mirkwood IIRC. Thranduil might have wondered why Thorin didn't take the Old Forest Road, but then again maybe not, since it had long since fallen into disuse, and was frequented by orcs. --Dave ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness X-Nntp-Posting-Host: dvp.cs.toronto.edu Message-ID: <2000Aug16.042433.7631@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Organization: CSLab, University of Toronto References: <24662-39979779-134@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Date: 16 Aug 2000 08:24:33 GMT Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!torn!utnut!utcsri!cs.toronto.edu!tbarrie Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25926 In article , Stan Brown wrote: >>Good point, but he didn't need to be transparent and vague about it as >>he was with the orcs. Surely all he needed to do was tell Thranduil he >>was travelling to the Iron Hills. I'm sure Thranduil knew that dwarves >>lived there. Even if Thorin clammed up afterwards, that might be >>convincing enough. > >I agree with your reasoning here. > >Of course the story-external explanation is the same as for why the >Eagles didn't just fly Frodo to Mount Doom: If Thorin had claimed to be going to the Iron Hills, Nazguls on winged steeds would have torn him to pieces?:) ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 11:51:27 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <24662-39979779-134@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <2000Aug16.042433.7631@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.cc.02 X-Server-Date: 16 Aug 2000 15:52:07 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!easynews!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25935 Trevor Barrie wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >In article , >>Of course the story-external explanation is the same as for why the >>Eagles didn't just fly Frodo to Mount Doom: > >If Thorin had claimed to be going to the Iron Hills, Nazguls on >winged steeds would have torn him to pieces?:) I saw your smiley, but that's not even a good explanation of why the Eagles didn't fly Frodo to Mount Doom. At the time of the Council of Elrond, the Nazgūl were unhorsed and did not yet have their winged steeds. They had to make their slow way back to Mordor, train their pterodactyls, and so on. The Eagles were near Rivendell, nesting in the Misty Mountains. Frodo could have hopped one, flown over Mount Doom and dropped in the Ring, and been back before Yule. But there would have been no story then. (This reminds me of Anna Russell's comment on /Hamlet/: "This is a fantastically complicated story! But there would have been no story at all if Hamlet had avenged his father's death at once instead of hinkle-pinkling around. Which goes to show that if you don't behave like you're supposed to, you're liable to be terribly interesting!") -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness References: <2000Aug16.042433.7631@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Organization: Europa From: ronc@pacifier.com (Ron Christian) NNTP-Posting-Host: thetics.europa.com Message-ID: <399ad1bb$1_1@news.nwlink.com> Date: 16 Aug 2000 10:39:07 -0700 X-Trace: 16 Aug 2000 10:39:07 -0700, thetics.europa.com Lines: 29 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!newsfeed.nwlink.com!news.nwlink.com!ronc Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25890 In article , Stan Brown wrote: >(This reminds me of Anna Russell's comment on /Hamlet/: "This is a >fantastically complicated story! But there would have been no story >at all if Hamlet had avenged his father's death at once instead of >hinkle-pinkling around. Which goes to show that if you don't behave >like you're supposed to, you're liable to be terribly interesting!") I thought it was "doomed to be terribly interesting". :-) Regarding the eagles and Mordor: it wouldn't even have been necessary for an eagle to fly into Mordor; if Gwilhir (horrible stab at spelling) wouldn't fly past Mordor's boarders, he could still have dropped Frodo off near the dead marshes, saving the company considerable inconvenience (the death of Boromir, the fall of Gandalf). Of course, if the eagles won't fly into Mordor, that begs the question, why was it suddenly OK at the end of the story when Frodo needed a quick escape? The only thing I can think of is that the eagles very specifically would not bear the ring, or anyone who was bearing the ring. But hmm... Now I have to go back and dig through The Hobbit... Ron -- [www.europa.com/~ronc] "CBS's 'Big Brother' is every bit as real as the WWF championships." ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness Date: 16 Aug 2000 23:38:06 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 40 Message-ID: <6uitt0anup.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <2000Aug16.042433.7631@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <399ad1bb$1_1@news.nwlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 966461886 492 10.0.3.2 (16 Aug 2000 21:38:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Aug 2000 21:38:06 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25952 ronc@pacifier.com (Ron Christian) writes: > In article , > Stan Brown wrote: > >(This reminds me of Anna Russell's comment on /Hamlet/: "This is a > >fantastically complicated story! But there would have been no story > >at all if Hamlet had avenged his father's death at once instead of > > wouldn't fly past Mordor's boarders, he could still have dropped > Frodo off near the dead marshes, saving the company considerable > inconvenience (the death of Boromir, the fall of Gandalf). That would have still got rid of lots of interesting story. > Of course, if the eagles won't fly into Mordor, that begs the > question, why was it suddenly OK at the end of the story when > Frodo needed a quick escape? Eagle ex machina. To make the ascend to Mt Orodruin more nerve wrecking to the reader Tolkien had already completely exausted the two hobbits. Add now an volcano outbreak. And he did not want to have his two heroes die. So he had to save them. IMHO this is the worst scene in the entire story. Such an let down. All that build up to the ring being destroyed, heroes in mortal danger, and then *boom* saved and over. Deus ex machina is a bad plot in any story. Here it feels really bad because the rest of the story is so good. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Black & Blue) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 17:48:26 -0700 Organization: Collective against Consensual Sanity Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <2000Aug16.042433.7631@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <399ad1bb$1_1@news.nwlink.com> <6uitt0anup.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!c158.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26013 / > Of course, if the eagles won't fly into Mordor, that begs the / > question, why was it suddenly OK at the end of the story when / > Frodo needed a quick escape? / / Eagle ex machina. Once the ring went poof I suspect Sauron and his minions and his maxions were busy with other matters. (Like their sudden lack of substance.) Until that moment there's no reason to believe that eagles could have fought through to Gorgoroth. After that moment there's no reason not to. / IMHO this is the worst scene in the entire story. Such an let down. / / All that build up to the ring being destroyed, heroes in mortal / danger, and then *boom* saved and over. Ah yes, all that Gilliamesque extensional angst that it must all end in madness, despair, and destruction. Did you know that prior to England losing its empire, English and American stories did have happy endings? =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Sign up for WASHINGTON MUTUAL BANK's special We Rob You While You Sleep Service TODAY! =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 Now a text site map http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/cacs/ pretty? http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/5079/ :)-free zone. Elect LUM World Dictator! ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness X-Nntp-Posting-Host: dvp.cs.toronto.edu Message-ID: <2000Aug16.221436.12585@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Organization: CSLab, University of Toronto References: <2000Aug16.042433.7631@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Date: 17 Aug 2000 02:14:36 GMT Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!utnut!utcsri!cs.toronto.edu!tbarrie Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26006 In article , Stan Brown wrote: >>>Of course the story-external explanation is the same as for why the >>>Eagles didn't just fly Frodo to Mount Doom: >> >>If Thorin had claimed to be going to the Iron Hills, Nazguls on >>winged steeds would have torn him to pieces?:) > >I saw your smiley, but that's not even a good explanation of why the >Eagles didn't fly Frodo to Mount Doom. At the time of the Council of >Elrond, the Nazgūl were unhorsed and did not yet have their winged >steeds. They had to make their slow way back to Mordor, train their >pterodactyls, and so on. Okay, so something else would have torn them to pieces. I think it was made fairly clear that the good guys didn't have the ability to just waltz into Mordor openly, and I don't see any reason to think that the eagles would have fared any better in such an attempt than a land-based army. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: tbarrie@cs.toronto.edu (Trevor Barrie) Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness X-Nntp-Posting-Host: dvp.cs.toronto.edu Message-ID: <2000Aug16.222430.15413@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Organization: CSLab, University of Toronto References: <2000Aug16.042433.7631@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <399ad1bb$1_1@news.nwlink.com> Date: 17 Aug 2000 02:24:30 GMT Lines: 24 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!utnut!utcsri!cs.toronto.edu!tbarrie Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26005 In article <399ad1bb$1_1@news.nwlink.com>, Ron Christian wrote: >Regarding the eagles and Mordor: it wouldn't even have been necessary >for an eagle to fly into Mordor; if Gwilhir (horrible stab at spelling) >wouldn't fly past Mordor's boarders, he could still have dropped >Frodo off near the dead marshes, saving the company considerable >inconvenience (the death of Boromir, the fall of Gandalf). Hmmm. Good point. >Of course, if the eagles won't fly into Mordor, that begs the >question, why was it suddenly OK at the end of the story when >Frodo needed a quick escape? The Ring had been destroyed then, and Sauron had lost his power. Would make a bit of a difference as to how safe a place Mordor was, I'd think. >The only thing I can think of is that the eagles very specifically >would not bear the ring, or anyone who was bearing the ring. That's an interesting thought. ###### Message-ID: <399B6AC6.E34F6437@yahoo.com> From: Opal Drake Reply-To: opalSPAMdrake@yahooBLOCK.com Organization: Left Wing Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness References: <2000Aug16.042433.7631@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <399ad1bb$1_1@news.nwlink.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 36 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 04:30:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.69.130.102 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: sea-read.news.verio.net 966486632 206.69.130.102 (Thu, 17 Aug 2000 04:30:32 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 04:30:32 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sea-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25954 Ron Christian wrote: [deleted] > Regarding the eagles and Mordor: it wouldn't even have been necessary > for an eagle to fly into Mordor; if Gwilhir (horrible stab at spelling) Gwaihir > wouldn't fly past Mordor's boarders, he could still have dropped > Frodo off near the dead marshes, saving the company considerable > inconvenience (the death of Boromir, the fall of Gandalf). It would be easy to spot nine Eagles carrying a strange mix of Men, Hobbits, an Elf, a Dwarf, and a Wizard all the way from the middle Misty Mountains to Mordor' doorstep. Even if it was just one Eagle, it would still be easy to spot him, especially so close to Mordor. > Of course, if the eagles won't fly into Mordor, that begs the > question, why was it suddenly OK at the end of the story when > Frodo needed a quick escape? The only thing I can think of is > that the eagles very specifically would not bear the ring, or > anyone who was bearing the ring. Suggestion: With the One Ring destroyed, and Sauron along with it, whatever power may have forbid the Eagles from entering was suddenly gone. -- ****************************************************** The Opal Dragon To E-mail me, remove 'SPAM BLOCK' from return address. ###### From: mnkohrz@gateway.net (Mnkohrz) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.gateway.net X-Admin: news@gateway.net Date: 17 Aug 2000 04:46:03 GMT References: <20523-3999F26A-96@storefull-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Organization: http://www.compuserve.com Message-ID: <20000817004603.03574.00000166@ng-fa1.news.gateway.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26017 >Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness >From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) >Date: 8/15/00 8:46 PM Central Daylight Time >Mnkohrz wrote: > >>My impression from the map in the >>Hobbit is that the Iron Hills are actually >>somewhat north of Mirkwood. Thrainduil >>would certainly wonder why Thorin did >>not take a more direct route. > >No, the Iron Hills are more or less east from Thranduil's Halls in Mirkwood IIRC. Thranduil might have wondered why Thorin didn't take the Old Forest Road, but then again maybe not, since it had long since fallen into disuse, and was frequented by orcs. > >--Dave Thorin & Co. were unaware of the Elven path until Beorn mentioned it. (Gandalf certainly knew, but he had better sense than to suggest it. He was well aware of the animosity between the Sindar and Dwarves.) Hence, we can conclude that few, if any, Dwarves knew about it. If Thranduil knew that the Old Forest Road was more or less abandoned, then he would also know that there was only one remaining option: Trek north around Mirkwood. (The other 2 options, trying to find a way through Mirkwood without a path or passing near Dol Guldur, were obviously suicidal.) This was in fact the route that Gandalf and Bilbo took on their return journey. It;s no wonder that Thranduil suspected that the dwarves were treying to spy out his secrets. Mnkohrz - "The true mystery of human nature is how we can demand that others respect us for who we are while simultaneously expecting them to conform to our own standards." ###### From: johnnybravo58@hotmail.com (Johnny Firic) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 15:10:30 GMT Organization: HiNet Lines: 15 Message-ID: <399bf695.7059117@news.tel.hr> References: <2000Aug16.042433.7631@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <399ad1bb$1_1@news.nwlink.com> <2000Aug16.222430.15413@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: a90-p5-zg.tel.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 966525279 16031 195.29.245.5 (17 Aug 2000 15:14:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 Aug 2000 15:14:39 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25960 >>The only thing I can think of is that the eagles very specifically >>would not bear the ring, or anyone who was bearing the ring. > >That's an interesting thought. > > I don't think the Eagles are like that, and beside, the issue is not about 'carrying the Ring-carrier' (Sam carried him on his back, remember, as did Bill the pony, on the way to Rivendell), but the Eagles, in the Hobbit, are afraid to go near the woodmen who have 'yew bows', so I suppose it'd be a problem for a dozen Eagles or so to go so far, near Dol Guldur, Mirkwood and other hostile territories - Johnny - ###### Reply-To: "Nitrov" From: "Nitrov" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <2000Aug16.042433.7631@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <399ad1bb$1_1@news.nwlink.com> <399B6AC6.E34F6437@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness Lines: 42 Organization: Clown.org X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 21:56:51 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.200.203.180 X-Complaints-To: abuse@videotron.net X-Trace: wagner.videotron.net 966650191 24.200.203.180 (Fri, 18 Aug 2000 21:56:31 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2000 21:56:31 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!wesley.videotron.net!wagner.videotron.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26120 "Opal Drake" wrote in message news:399B6AC6.E34F6437@yahoo.com... > > > Ron Christian wrote: > > [deleted] > > > Regarding the eagles and Mordor: it wouldn't even have been necessary > > for an eagle to fly into Mordor; if Gwilhir (horrible stab at spelling) > > Gwaihir > > > wouldn't fly past Mordor's boarders, he could still have dropped > > Frodo off near the dead marshes, saving the company considerable > > inconvenience (the death of Boromir, the fall of Gandalf). > > It would be easy to spot nine Eagles carrying a strange mix of Men, > Hobbits, an Elf, a Dwarf, and a Wizard all the way from the middle > Misty Mountains to Mordor' doorstep. Even if it was just one Eagle, > it would still be easy to spot him, especially so close to Mordor. > > > Of course, if the eagles won't fly into Mordor, that begs the > > question, why was it suddenly OK at the end of the story when > > Frodo needed a quick escape? The only thing I can think of is > > that the eagles very specifically would not bear the ring, or > > anyone who was bearing the ring. > > Suggestion: With the One Ring destroyed, and Sauron along with it, > whatever power may have forbid the Eagles from entering was > suddenly gone. > But didn't Gandalf said something like Gwaihir and friends would have to be "faster than the Nazgul" ? It sounds a bit like Gandalf feared that the Nazguls could still do some harm, or was it only a metaphor ? Nitrov ###### From: mnkohrz@gateway.net (Mnkohrz) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.gateway.net X-Admin: news@gateway.net Date: 19 Aug 2000 05:41:23 GMT References: Organization: http://www.compuserve.com Message-ID: <20000819014123.18670.00000330@ng-ba1.news.gateway.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26136 >Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness >From: "Nitrov" bozo@clown.org >Date: 8/18/00 8:56 PM Central Daylight Time >> Suggestion: With the One Ring destroyed, and Sauron along with it, whatever power may have forbid the Eagles from entering was suddenly gone. >> > >But didn't Gandalf said something like Gwaihir and friends would have to be "faster than the Nazgul" ? It sounds a bit like Gandalf feared that the Nazguls could still do some harm, or was it only a metaphor ? > >Nitrov It was only a metaphor. The Nazgul had already ceased to exist! Gandalf just needed the speed to rescue Frodo and Sam from the eruption of Mt. Doom. (I do wonder how he knew that they were still alive. It was entirely possible that the mountain would just blow itself apart before the hobbits could escape.) Mnkohrz - "The true mystery of human nature is how we can demand that others respect us for who we are while simultaneously expecting them to conform to our own standards." ###### From: "Brett Hainley" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <2000Aug16.042433.7631@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> <399ad1bb$1_1@news.nwlink.com> <2000Aug16.222430.15413@jarvis.cs.toronto.edu> Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness Lines: 11 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 02:40:31 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-fK7pLqIcLJ0re9oZsVNdgJnHaSFBPX2ycN1WrUarb0dCsOawDOyu3bBwNEhw7Y9QFvRM7l7TUDZptgb!sNMYdXWJKDAdHQK7Y/T8Wg== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 02:41:03 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26108 > >The only thing I can think of is that the eagles very specifically > >would not bear the ring, or anyone who was bearing the ring. > > That's an interesting thought. Except that the eagles carried Bilbo after he had the ring. (Yes, I know he "stole" his first ride, dangling from someone's feet (I think Bofur), but the Eagles also carried them from their eyries to the Carrock, and that time Bilbo got a voluntary ride.) ###### From: raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Thorin's Pigheadedness References: <11110-39962FBA-128@storefull-255.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 12 Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 08:15:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.215.43.118 X-Complaints-To: abuse@asiaonline.net X-Trace: news.interact.net.au 966672925 210.215.43.118 (Sat, 19 Aug 2000 18:15:25 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 18:15:25 EST Organization: an Asia Online client - http://www.asiaonline.net/ X-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 18:15:25 EST (news.interact.net.au) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!newsfeed.ozemail.com.au!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!news.interact.net.au!raka Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26032 On Sun, 13 Aug 2000 01:18:50 -0400 (EDT), David Sulger wrote: >Hobbit, he quickly babbles on and on about visiting his relatives. But >then, when Thranduil captures him, he clams right up. Does revenge >completely addle dwarves in general, or was this a personal quirk of >Thorin's? I mean, wouldn't it be _far_ more sensible for him to give >Thranduil the same story? Perhaps because Thranduil is a local he thinks no one will be fooled. I mean he could have been going to the Iron hills, but maybe Thorin knew that Thranduil's spies would have been aware of such arangments. Anyway, even if he was going to visit relies, Thranduil might not have been too pleased with the idea.