Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Why "Nazgul"? X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 34 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 966016424 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 11 Aug 2000 12:53:44 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 12:53:44 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:53:44 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25488 "The Nine the Nazgul keep." -- Gandalf, at the Council of Elrond "None have ever dared speak the words of that language in this valley..." -- Elrond, quite a bit later (from memory, I'm afraid) On the way into work a couple of days ago, I found myself inexplicably muttering the word "Nazgul" to myself. I started thinking about this, and while I still have no idea why the word entered my mind, I _do_ have a rather interesting question about it: Why do the Free Peoples call the Ringwraiths the Nazgul? My confusion stems from the fact that "Nazgul" is clearly a word from the Black Speech ("Ach NAZG durbatuluk" has the same word "NAZG"="ring" that "Nazgul" is derived from, for example, and I suspect that there's explicit confirmation of this somewhere). The Free Peoples, and the Elves in particular, seem to absolutely loathe the Black Speech. Elrond's reaction to Gandalf's recitation of the Ring verse is remarkably harsh, for example. But "Nazgul" goes completely without comment. Why, then, did this term for the Ringwraiths come into common use? And when? I would think that any halfway trained Elvish linguist (which may well have included a substantial fraction of the population) would recognize the source of the word from its sound alone. I actually have a bit of a theory to explain the situation already, but it's not completely formed yet and I'm interested in seeing what explanations other people can come up with (_without_ having one specific idea already shaping their thoughts). Steuard Jensen ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 14:19:21 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.cd.2d X-Server-Date: 11 Aug 2000 18:20:23 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25549 Steuard Jensen wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Why do the Free Peoples >call the Ringwraiths the Nazgul (in light of Elrond's aversion to the Black Speech, whence "Nazgul" clearly comes)? Interesting question. I can make two guesses, which are actually one guess: a. "Ringwraith" is rather hard to say; perhaps the Westron equivalent was also hard to say and "Nazgul" was easier. b. During the Black Years, presumably Mordor-speech would have been widespread, and the Nazgul openly active. So the word itself would be widespread, and might have been borrowed by other peoples, just as the Greek word "Basileus", referring to the later Byzantine emperors, was sometimes used by non-Byzantines. My theory, for what it's worth, is that "Nazgul" was a loan-word adopted in Westron in the Second Age, and four thousand years later no one thought of it as a part of the Black Speech. (Related query: I can't remember the Black Speech word for the Black Speech. Were we ever told, as we were told that Khuzdul is Dwarvish for Dwarvish?) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: 11 Aug 2000 19:08:07 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 95 Message-ID: <8n1iun$kbo$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: sirppi.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 966020887 20856 128.214.205.27 (11 Aug 2000 19:08:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Aug 2000 19:08:07 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsrouter.chello.at!news01.chello.no!Norway.EU.net!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25594 Stan Brown wrote: > Steuard Jensen wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: >>Why do the Free Peoples >>call the Ringwraiths the Nazgul > (in light of Elrond's aversion to the Black Speech, whence "Nazgul" > clearly comes)? > Interesting question. I can make two guesses, which are actually one > guess: > a. "Ringwraith" is rather hard to say; perhaps the Westron > equivalent was also hard to say and "Nazgul" was easier. > b. During the Black Years, presumably Mordor-speech would have been > widespread, and the Nazgul openly active. So the word itself would > be widespread, and might have been borrowed by other peoples, just > as the Greek word "Basileus", referring to the later Byzantine > emperors, was sometimes used by non-Byzantines. > My theory, for what it's worth, is that "Nazgul" was a loan-word > adopted in Westron in the Second Age, and four thousand years later > no one thought of it as a part of the Black Speech. Opinion seconded. The French and English have been enemies for a long long time. Even now, or especially now the French actively avoid mixing English with French (Information gathered from news, no personal experience). The words and expressions that have come to french earlier are, however, there to stay. "Le weekend" is as far as I know nowadays French. Of course French is just agrarian Latin and English is a distorted french, as my French teacher said (To hell with the saxons). All languages borrow from eachother and although the changes are objected to in the beginning, they are sometimes incorporated to the language so well that a common man cannot say wich word was borrowed and wich was not (if there are such words). My Finnish teacher told us that there are only 250 original ugric words in contemporary Finnish and the rest have been borrowed from other languages. Still he was a purist and even the slightest "svetitismi" or "anglismi" was at once objected to. He was fighting against the windmills. Languages change all the time, but without people like him they would change faster (so what). These are as far as I know totally acceptabe words in Finnish: amoraalinen (amoral, neutroni (neutron), trisomia (trisomy), Downin syndrooma (Down syndrome, ulcus (ulcus), gastriitti (gastritis), informaatio (information) and so on. I have a second explanation though. I don't know how the black speech developed. Somehow I seem to remember that it was somekind of a distorted elvish. Sauron might not have invented all the words himself but he might have borrowed them from somewhere else like Quenya or Valarin. After all there were AFAIK only two original languages, the Valarin and the language that the elves at cuivien developed. Sauron knew them both and the word Nazgul might have been an Sindarin word not borrowed from the black speech but a word that had come through the generations to both Sindarin and the black speech independently. In fact while writing this I have surfed a bit and found this: "Where did the vocabulary of the Black Speech come from? Surely Sauron had no more "love of words or things" than his servants had, and one might well think that he simply invented words arbitrarily. This may be true in some cases, but it appears that he also picked words from many sources, even the Elvish languages: "The word uruk that occurs in the Black Speech, devised (it is said) by Sauron to serve as a lingua franca for his subjects, was probably borrowed by him from the Elvish tongues of earlier times" (WJ:390). ".... "But there were also other sources for Black Speech vocabulary. The word for "ring" was nazg, very similar to the final element in the Valarin word mâchananakâd "the Doom-ring" (WJ:401, there somewhat differently spelt). Being a Maia, Sauron would know Valarin; it could indeed be his "mothertongue", to use the only term available. If it seems blasphemous to suggest that the tongue of the Gods may have been an ingredient in Sauron's Black Speech, "full of harsh and hideous sounds and vile words", it should be remembered that according to Pengolodh, "the effect of Valarin upon Elvish ears was not pleasing" (WJ:398). Morgoth, technically being a Vala, must have known Valarin (or at least picked it up during the ages he was captive in Valinor). According to LR:178 he taught it to his slaves in a "perverted" form. If so, Valarin nakâd "ring" may have produced nazg in one Orkish dialect of the Second Age, from which Sauron took it" This is the URL:"http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/" Tamim ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 14:00:53 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25608 On Fri, 11 Aug 2000 17:53:44 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > >On the way into work a couple of days ago, I found myself inexplicably >muttering the word "Nazgul" to myself. I started thinking about this, >and while I still have no idea why the word entered my mind, I _do_ >have a rather interesting question about it: Why do the Free Peoples >call the Ringwraiths the Nazgul? >I actually have a bit of a theory to explain the situation already, >but it's not completely formed yet and I'm interested in seeing what >explanations other people can come up with (_without_ having one >specific idea already shaping their thoughts). > I have wondered about this for some years and even commented on it in these newsgroups some years ago with ¡no response! What's yer hypothesis (it aint really a theory yet.)? Actually how about 'Dol Guldur' and 'Morgul', too? Isn't 'gul' BS? If it's not, 'nazgul' becomes even more intriguing. Note that an Elvish word (Quenya or Sindarin, probably Quenya - 'i' plural) for these guys is 'Ulairi'. the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- If you're happy and you know it, clunk your chains. ###### From: johnnybravo58@hotmail.com (Johnny Firic) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 21:48:10 GMT Organization: HiNet Lines: 33 Message-ID: <399471eb.12887005@news.tel.hr> References: <3994CA89.668B@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: as1-m62.tel.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 966030718 27219 195.29.240.62 (11 Aug 2000 21:51:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Aug 2000 21:51:58 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25562 e: >Steuard Jensen wrote: > >> Why do the Free Peoples >> call the Ringwraiths the Nazgul? > >Here's a crackpot theory by a dear friend of mine: > >Fundinul = son of Fundin >Nazg = Ring > >Therefore, > >Nazgul: son of the Ring > >Works for me! :) > >Mia right, right. seriously: UL obviously means 'wraith' in the Black speech - altho I can't think of an example right now - perhaps in the curse by the Mordor Orc (from "Uruk Hai")? The Black Speech, btw, was not distorted Elvish (whichever one), but was "fashioned" for the Orcs by Sauron. The Orcs (ie various tribes of them) added words, some of which were originally of Elvish origin (like "tark" for Numenorean), but overall the two languages were not at all related. - Johnny - ps there's lots of ULs in the ring-inscription ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Lines: 48 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:26:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.72.57 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 966032792 12.78.72.57 (Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:26:32 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:26:32 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.20!wnmasters3!bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25570 "Steuard Jensen" wrote in message news:I4Xk5.198$x3.3644@uchinews... > Why do the Free Peoples call the Ringwraiths the Nazgul? > My confusion stems from the fact that "Nazgul" is clearly a word > from the Black Speech ("Ach NAZG durbatuluk" has the same word > "NAZG"="ring" that "Nazgul" is derived from, for example, and I > suspect that there's explicit confirmation of this somewhere). There is. See below. > The Free Peoples, and the Elves in particular, seem to absolutely > loathe the Black Speech. Elrond's reaction to Gandalf's > recitation of the Ring verse is remarkably harsh, for example. > But "Nazgul" goes completely without comment. "The Black Speech was only used in Mordor; it only occurs in the Ring inscription, and a sentence uttered by the Orcs of Barad-dur (Vol. II p. 48) and in the word Nazgul (cf. nazg in the Ring inscription). It was never willingly used by any other people, and consequently even the names of places in Mordor are in English (for the C.S.) or Elvish." Letters #144 "Nazgul. There is no conceivable reason why a word from the Black Speech should have any connexions with A-S. It means 'Ring- wraith', and the element nazg is surely plainly identical with nazg 'ring' in the fiery inscription on the One Ring." Letters #297 "nazg: the word for 'ring' in the Black Speech. This was devised to be a vocable as distinct in style and phonetic content from words of the same meaning in Elvish..." Also Letter #297, two pages later Given the statement in the third quotation that 'nazg' was chosen specifically to be as UNlike elvish words for 'ring' as possible it seems unlikely to have been adopted as a term of common meaning between two languages. My own take is that while you would not find Elves (or any other free people) speaking the BS in full or even referring to places by their BS names... they WOULD rarely use individual words for particularly horrible things - or perhaps only in this one exceptional case. ###### From: "Andrew Clark" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 23:47:08 +0100 Organization: Customer of Energis Squared Lines: 11 Message-ID: <8n21n7$pr1$4@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <3994CA89.668B@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-214.silicon.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news8.svr.pol.co.uk 966036007 26465 62.136.13.214 (11 Aug 2000 23:20:07 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Aug 2000 23:20:07 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25579 Mia Kalogjera wrote > Nazgul: son of the Ring I think I recall Gandalf explaining to Frodo that the Nazgul are so named because they are bound up with the Ring. This may have been in LOTR or one of the SOTS (son-of-Tolkien-specials). ###### From: "Dave Joll" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 11:38:11 +1200 Organization: ? Surely you jest! Lines: 20 Message-ID: <966036838.876161@inv.ihug.co.nz> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: inv.ihug.co.nz X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Cache-Post-Path: inv.ihug.co.nz!unknown@p24-max1.inv.ihug.co.nz X-Cache: nntpcache 2.4.0b2 (see http://www.nntpcache.org/) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ihug.co.nz!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25569 the softrat wrote in message ... >Actually how about 'Dol Guldur' and 'Morgul', too? Isn't 'gul' BS? I don't think so - isn't it Elvish for "sorcery" or something like that? ISTR a translation of "Minas Morgul" as "tower of dark sorcery". I suspect the "ul" in "nazgul" is a genitive suffix. It seems an interesting coincidence that it is also used as a genitive suffix in Dwarvish (cf "Khuzdul"). >If it's not, 'nazgul' becomes even more intriguing. Note that an >Elvish word (Quenya or Sindarin, probably Quenya - 'i' plural) for >these guys is 'Ulairi'. The "U" seems to be a negative prefix but I can't recall whether a translation for that word was given. ###### Message-ID: <3994A4E1.99059CA4@yahoo.com> From: Opal Drake Reply-To: opalSPAMdrake@yahooBLOCK.com Organization: Left Wing Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 43 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 01:12:39 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.69.130.85 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: sea-read.news.verio.net 966042759 206.69.130.85 (Sat, 12 Aug 2000 01:12:39 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 01:12:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sea-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25613 Stan Brown wrote: [deleted[ > a. "Ringwraith" is rather hard to say; It is? It always flows well off my tongue. > perhaps the Westron > equivalent was also hard to say and "Nazgul" was easier. > > b. During the Black Years, presumably Mordor-speech would have been > widespread, and the Nazgul openly active. So the word itself would > be widespread, and might have been borrowed by other peoples, just > as the Greek word "Basileus", referring to the later Byzantine > emperors, was sometimes used by non-Byzantines. > > My theory, for what it's worth, is that "Nazgul" was a loan-word > adopted in Westron in the Second Age, and four thousand years later > no one thought of it as a part of the Black Speech. > > (Related query: I can't remember the Black Speech word for the Black > Speech. Were we ever told, as we were told that Khuzdul is Dwarvish > for Dwarvish?) I think the easiest answer is that Nazgul sounds forbidding, and that is why Tolkien used it. That it was Black Speech did not apparently seem very significant to Tolkien. It is worth noting that Elrond objected only when Gandalf fully spoke the Black Speech language. Single words here and there probably do not matter. After all, while they don't go around shouting out 'Sauron' everywhere, characters do mention him by name quite often. -- ****************************************************** The Opal Dragon To E-mail me, remove 'SPAM BLOCK' from return address. ###### From: Mia Kalogjera Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 20:54:49 -0700 Organization: TEUNC Lines: 17 Message-ID: <3994CA89.668B@yahoo.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ad7-m226.tel.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 966019879 25630 195.29.230.226 (11 Aug 2000 18:51:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Aug 2000 18:51:19 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25606 Steuard Jensen wrote: > Why do the Free Peoples > call the Ringwraiths the Nazgul? Here's a crackpot theory by a dear friend of mine: Fundinul = son of Fundin Nazg = Ring Therefore, Nazgul: son of the Ring Works for me! :) Mia ###### Message-ID: <399589C1.46D42574@yahoo.com> From: Opal Drake Reply-To: opalSPAMdrake@yahooBLOCK.com Organization: Left Wing Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? References: <966036838.876161@inv.ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 17 Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 17:29:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.69.130.63 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: sea-read.news.verio.net 966101350 206.69.130.63 (Sat, 12 Aug 2000 17:29:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 17:29:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sea-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25623 Dave Joll wrote: [deleted] > in Dwarvish (cf "Khuzdul"). Out of curiousity, how is Khuzdul pronounced? Some friends and I got into an argument over this. Is it pronounced 'kuzdul' or 'chuzdul'? -- ****************************************************** The Opal Dragon To E-mail me, remove 'SPAM BLOCK' from return address. ###### From: "O. Sharp" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: 12 Aug 2000 18:22:37 GMT Organization: Hand Me A Wax Gasket, Will You? Lines: 52 Message-ID: <8n44ld$6tr$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.72 User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990517 ("Psychonaut") (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!xfe11.netnews.com!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25620 Yet another confirmation of _nazgul_'s translation, this from Professor T's helpful hints for translators _Guide To The Names In The Lord Of The Rings_ (now found in Jared Lobdell's _A Tolkien Compass_), formatted a bit for emphasis: _Ring-wraiths_. This is a translation of the Black Speech _Nazgul_, from _nazg_ 'ring' and _gul_, any one of the major invisible servants of Sauron dominated entirely by his will. A compound must be made out of suitable elements in the language of translation that has the sense of 'ring-wraith' as nearly as possible. As to why Elrond and everyone else just sat around, stupid and obtuse, when "nazgul" was spoken but suddenly got bent out of shape when the Ring-inscription was read: I think the esteemed Mr. Dunkerson (if I'm attributing the idea correctly) hit it when he suggested that one or two particularly horrible Black Speech words might have made it into common usage during the Dark Years... but I would also note that Gandalf's _particular_ choice of Black Speech to quote - the inscription/curse Sauron spoke as he forged the One Ring, to bind all the others to his will, spoken in a haven protected by one of the Three, while two of the Three Rings and their keepers were _in the room at the time_ - might have sounded _particularly_ unpleasant to Elrond, and thus gotten a much more extreme reply. I mean, think about it. They mentioned the _nazgul_ and nobody objected, except maybe to squirm in their seats a little. Gandalf might have even recited some of his favorite Black Spech poetry and gotten away with it. Maybe he could even have ordered his breakfast in the Black Speech ("I'd like some _ul'ush_, over easy, with a side of _pagazh_ and some _takatulug_, and maybe a glass of _flag'dh org-d'zhul_" * ) without objection. But when Gandalf stood up and roared somethng in the Black Speech which said, in effect, "I am Sauron and I OWN your sorry ass! You and your Ring! And the house you built with it! And your little dog, too! You're all MINE! MINE! Ahhh ha ha ha ha hahaaaaa!", it's understandable that Elrond would finally get pushed over the edge and tell Gandalf to shut the hell up. :) * "ul'ush" - Eggs. (Derived from BS "ur'uzh", the eggs that Orcs are spawned from in their great Orcish mud-pits.) "pagazh" - Bacon. (BS "pag" pig + "azhg" sliced into thin little strips.) "takatulug" - Potatoes. (Derived from Valarin "taters".) "flag'dh org-d'zhul" - Florida orange juice. (Derivation unknown.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ohh@netcom.com ...who is back online after several days tearing open every computer in the house, rerouting our entire network, removing and reinstalling all the modems, rescuing a hell of a lot of data from a Windoze machine that went into Terminal Stupidity mode... and today I get to overhaul some of the plumbing in what is, I'm glad to say, an unrelated problem. :/ ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 22:12:17 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 20 Message-ID: <8n47l5$3ge$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <966036838.876161@inv.ihug.co.nz> <399589C1.46D42574@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-q029.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 966107621 3598 212.205.254.29 (12 Aug 2000 19:13:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Aug 2000 19:13:41 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25627 Opal Drake wrote in message news:399589C1.46D42574@yahoo.com... > > > Dave Joll wrote: > > [deleted] > > > in Dwarvish (cf "Khuzdul"). > > Out of curiousity, how is Khuzdul pronounced? Some friends and I got > into an argument over this. Is it pronounced 'kuzdul' or 'chuzdul'? I think it's pronounced khuzdul, "k" and "h" both pronounced. Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Brett Hainley" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8n1iun$kbo$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Lines: 9 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 15:00:40 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-Wtue3wmLCvguKLr0JIau9mHxJSdsahw1heUgnRGpv0+8AkHv2yyV+UmrAnBAIggbzk+K1a/ggr9i04d!YJvNWl+RzL3ZZVfHyzYJfw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 20:00:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25675 > Of course French is just agrarian Latin and English is a > distorted french, as my French teacher said (To hell with the >saxons). Actually French is a mixture of Gaelic and Latin (compare French to Irish Gaelic), and English is a true bastard, with origins in German, Latin, French, and Celtic, combined with contributions from various other peoples. ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: 12 Aug 2000 21:32:23 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 17 Message-ID: <8n4fp7$ci9$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> References: <8n1iun$kbo$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: sirppi.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 966115943 12873 128.214.205.27 (12 Aug 2000 21:32:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Aug 2000 21:32:23 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newspeer.highwayone.net!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25687 Brett Hainley wrote: >> Of course French is just agrarian Latin and English is a >> distorted french, as my French teacher said (To hell with the >saxons). > Actually French is a mixture of Gaelic and Latin (compare French to Irish > Gaelic), and English is a true bastard, with origins in German, Latin, > French, and Celtic, combined with contributions from various other peoples. That was my former teacher speking, not me. That is why I put that saxon part. Tamim -- ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8n1iun$kbo$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Lines: 17 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.87.241 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 966122829 212.151.87.241 (Sun, 13 Aug 2000 01:27:09 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 01:27:09 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: unknown@d212-151-87-241.swipnet.se Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 01:29:27 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25685 Brett Hainley hath written: [snip] >Actually French is a mixture of Gaelic and Latin (compare French to Irish >Gaelic), and English is a true bastard, with origins in German, Latin, >French, and Celtic, combined with contributions from various other peoples. French is a descendant of the very rough Latin spoken by Roman legionaries. There are very few words of Gaulish origin in French. Gaulish, the Celtic language spoken before the Roman conquest, is very distantly related to Gaelic; it belonged to the same branch of Celtic languages as Welsh. Öjevind ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 23:51:34 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 12 Message-ID: <11111-39961B46-34@storefull-255.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <8n44ld$6tr$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAuAhUAtlQEZEcGn5CRiAdFEehsf0wdEoICFQCHPkkKx8ArMddNE2oU7JIpO+Rr4g== Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25643 O. Sharp wrote: >Maybe he could even have ordered his >breakfast in the Black Speech ("I'd like >some _ul'ush_, over easy, with a side of >_pagazh_ and some _takatulug_, and >maybe a glass of _flag'dh org-d'zhul_" I'll have what he's having, but hold the _ul'ush_. :) --Dave ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 23:53:22 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 19 Message-ID: <11112-39961BB2-9@storefull-255.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <8n44ld$6tr$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAkvbl7CxioLb9O589+66ZVEx1r98CFGJL1T8l/1KnCwiNq7U5kW5CCRC4 Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25638 O. Sharp wrote: >But when Gandalf stood up and roared >somethng in the Black Speech which >said, in effect, "I am Sauron and I OWN >your sorry ass! You and your Ring! And >the house you built with it! And your little >dog, too! You're all MINE! MINE! Ahhh >ha ha ha ha hahaaaaa!", it's >understandable that Elrond would finally >get pushed over the edge and tell >Gandalf to shut the hell up. :) LOL! That's good. I nominate it for Crackpot Theory status. --Dave ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? References: <966036838.876161@inv.ihug.co.nz> <399589C1.46D42574@yahoo.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 16 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 966140320 128.135.12.7 (Sat, 12 Aug 2000 23:18:40 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 23:18:40 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 04:18:40 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25637 Quoth opalSPAMdrake@yahooBLOCK.com: > Out of curiousity, how is Khuzdul pronounced? Some friends and I > got into an argument over this. Is it pronounced 'kuzdul' or > 'chuzdul'? I'm not sure quite how you mean your examples, so I'll just give my take on the question. My impression for quite some time has been that the "kh" represents the "ch" in Scottish "loch" or German "ich". It's represented by the third _tengwa_ in the "k" series in Feanor's alphabet. :) (At any rate, I think that Tolkien generally intended any "usual" two-consonant combinations that he used... "Galadhrim" contains the combinatin "dh", anyway, which seems to be a fairly common notation for the sound at the beginning of the word "this".) Hopefully someone will come up with some actual support for my claim eventually. :) Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? References: <8n44ld$6tr$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 51 Message-ID: <41ql5.262$x3.5254@uchinews> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 966143168 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 13 Aug 2000 00:06:08 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 00:06:08 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 05:06:08 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25631 Quoth "O. Sharp" : > ...[Tolkien]'s helpful hints for translators _Guide To The Names In > The Lord Of The Rings_ (now found in Jared Lobdell's _A Tolkien > Compass_): > _gul_, any one of the major invisible servants of Sauron dominated > entirely by his will. Wow. I've wanted to get a copy of that for a while, but I never realized _how_ useful and informative it could be. This, I think, constitutes proof that Sauron had major invisible servants _other_ than the Nazgul, which begs the usual questions... Who? How? When? Where? What did they do? Were they ever mentioned (or implied) in the books? Any information on any of these questions would be greatly appreciated, as would any more thoughts on these other invisible servants in the first place. On another note, what's a good price for _A Tolkien Compass_ these days, and what does it contain other than the Guide to Names? Is it worth searching for? [Snip comments on Gandalf's choice of what Black Speech to use] Very funny, but very accurate I must admit, at least on some levels. :) I suppose that enough time has passed that I can share my own theory on the source of "Nazgul" as an acceptable term. I wonder if perhaps the term was first widely used by the Southron and Easterling peoples among whom (presumably) the Nazgul first rose to power. Sauron may have coined the term himself, and it's quite possible that only his chief lieutenants knew its significance. At any rate, the word "Nazgul" for these powerful lords and sorcerers is eventually adopted by the surrounding communities, and eventually it makes its way to the Numenorian colonies, as well as to the Elves and probably some of the other northwestern peoples as well. The remaining Noldor may well have recognized its significance quite quickly, but we already know that they were very reluctant to tell even their allies about the whole Ring fiasco. The Elves, then, would probably not be inclined to share much information on the word, or even to call attention to it by refusing to use it. Meanwhile, most other people probably wouldn't even realize that it was from the Black Speech in the first place. By the time of LotR, just about everyone has lost whatever _intsnse_ dislike thay may have had for the word in the first place through long familliarity. Okay, so it's not a particularly complete or convincing theory, and it's quite similar to others that we've seen, but it's a thought, anyway. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: buhrger@ecn.ab.ca () Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: 13 Aug 2000 00:51:06 -0700 Organization: Edmonton Community Network Lines: 32 Message-ID: <3996455a@ecn.ab.ca> References: <966036838.876161@inv.ihug.co.nz> <399589C1.46D42574@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet.edmonton.ab.ca X-Trace: newsfeed.sas.ab.ca 966149468 2832 198.161.206.2 (13 Aug 2000 06:51:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@sas.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Aug 2000 06:51:08 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2.6] X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.161.206.7 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!cyclone.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!sas.ab.ca!ecn.ab.ca!buhrger Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25694 Steuard Jensen (sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu) wrote: : My impression for quite some time has been that : the "kh" [in "khuzdul"] represents the "ch" in Scottish "loch" or German : "ich". It's : represented by the third _tengwa_ in the "k" series in Feanor's : alphabet. :) (At any rate, I think that Tolkien generally intended any : "usual" two-consonant combinations that he used... "Galadhrim" : contains the combinatin "dh", anyway, which seems to be a fairly : common notation for the sound at the beginning of the word "this".) : Hopefully someone will come up with some actual support for my claim : eventually. :) : Steuard Jensen as reticent as i am to take on the noble s.jensen on a matter of tolkienia, especially when i don't have references to hand, i seem to recall something in an appendix giving a different take on the khuzdul kh - the third tengwa in the k-series represents a fricative (sound is produced by friction in the mouth, in this case the tongue against the back of the mouth). but i think in one of the appendix discussion of khuzdul tolkien states that their kh represents an aspirated k - roughly speaking a k followed by a puff of air. of course, that's my vaguely remembered details at 1 in the morning, mixed with an amateur's knowledge of linguistics. support or counterargument appreciated. ajb -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Andrew Buhr buhrger@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Savour the Irony! buhra@infinity.gmcc.ab.ca http://freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~buhrger ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <39967199.50883317@news.verio.net> References: <966036838.876161@inv.ihug.co.nz> <399589C1.46D42574@yahoo.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 37 Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 10:13:40 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.221 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 966161574 198.172.26.221 (Sun, 13 Aug 2000 10:12:54 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 10:12:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25653 On Sun, 13 Aug 2000 04:18:40 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >Quoth opalSPAMdrake@yahooBLOCK.com: >> Out of curiousity, how is Khuzdul pronounced? Some friends and I >> got into an argument over this. Is it pronounced 'kuzdul' or >> 'chuzdul'? > >I'm not sure quite how you mean your examples, so I'll just give my >take on the question. My impression for quite some time has been that >the "kh" represents the "ch" in Scottish "loch" or German "ich". It's >represented by the third _tengwa_ in the "k" series in Feanor's It's the "k" series in Quenya, not necessarily in Khuzdul. The Tengwar don't have fixed sound values. Fortunately, there's Appendix E: "In Dwarvish, which did not possess the sounds represented above by 'th' and 'ch(kh), 'th' and 'kh' are aspirates, that is 't' or 'k' followed by an 'h', more or less as in 'backhand', 'outhouse'." IOW, the 'k' and 'h' are pronounced separately: "k-huzdul". >alphabet. :) (At any rate, I think that Tolkien generally intended any >"usual" two-consonant combinations that he used... "Galadhrim" >contains the combinatin "dh", anyway, which seems to be a fairly >common notation for the sound at the beginning of the word "this".) >Hopefully someone will come up with some actual support for my claim >eventually. :) Normally 'dh' is the sound in 'this', but I think 'dhr' might be a special case. In English, D is usually altered when followed by R, but in the Elvish languages a word like 'Galadrim' would be pronounced 'galad rim', with a noticeable break between syllables. I suspect 'dhr' is an attempt to make the pronunciation more like English while keeping the spelling consistent. ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8n44ld$6tr$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <41ql5.262$x3.5254@uchinews> Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Lines: 49 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.73.17 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 966175669 212.151.73.17 (Sun, 13 Aug 2000 16:07:49 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 16:07:49 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: unknown@d212-151-73-17.swipnet.se Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 16:10:08 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!ams-newsfeed.speedport.net!ldn-newsfeed.speedport.net!newsfeed.speedport.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25689 Steuard Jensen hath written: [snip] > >On another note, what's a good price for _A Tolkien Compass_ these >days, and what does it contain other than the Guide to Names? Is it >worth searching for? The other articles in "A Tolkien Compass" are: Bonniejean Christensen: "Gollum's Character Transformation in *The Lord of the Rings*" Dorothy Matthews: "The Psychological Journey of Bilbo Baggins" Walter Scheps: "The Fairy-tale Morality of *The Lord of the Rings*" Agnes Perkins and Helen Hill: "The Corruption of Power" Deborah Rogers: "Everyclod and Everyhero: The Image of Man in Tolkien" Richard West: "The Interlace Structure of *The Lord of the Rings*" David Miller: "Narrative Pattern in *The Fellowship of the Ring*" Robert Plank: "'The Scouring of the Shire': Tolkien's View of Fascism" Charles A. Huttar: "Hell and the City: Tolkien and the Traditions of Western Literature" U. Milo Kaufmann: "Aspects of the Paradaisical in Tolkien's Work". The Guide alone makes the book worth buying. It is extremely interesting if you share Tolkien's love of languages in any degree at all. Most of the other articles are straightforward literary analysis of Tolkien's works. Scheps' article is an attack on Tolkien, included by Lobdell for the sake of balance. In his introduction, Lobdell writes: "Walter Scheps of The Ohio State University presents a well-written (and by my view wrongheaded) discussion of 'The Fairy-tale Morality of *The Lord of the Rings*', a paper which calls to my mind the equally wrongheaded article by Mr Matthew Hodgart in the *New York Review of Books* some years ago, in which he complained that 'for a parallel in medieval literature we must look to works written under the inspiration of Christian doctrine: to the *Chanson de Roland*, with its straight conflict between good Christians and bad Saracens.' Evidently, this is a continuing complaint against Professor Tolkien - whether, as in Mr Hodgart's case, it is couched as an attack on moral absolutism, or as in Professor Sceps' article, it is (at least in part) directed at the presumed irrelevance of moral absolutism. Granted that one can - and many do - push the demand for relevance too far and that to try to sell us on the principle that the black-and-white morality of *The Lord of the Rings* cannot be applied *volens-nolens* to real life is not to try to sell us on moral relativism, this is stll merchandise that I am not buying. Yet it is well sold: Professor Scheps argues the point cogently. Perhaps the article's publication here will lead someone to write as cogent an answer." Öjevind ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? References: <399589C1.46D42574@yahoo.com> <39967199.50883317@news.verio.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 33 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 966185781 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 13 Aug 2000 11:56:21 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 11:56:21 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 16:56:21 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25635 Quoth mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells): > (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > >My impression for quite some time has been that the "kh" represents > >the "ch" in Scottish "loch" or German "ich". It's represented by > >the third _tengwa_ in the "k" series in Feanor's > It's the "k" series in Quenya, not necessarily in Khuzdul. The > Tengwar don't have fixed sound values. To clarify a little, I meant that the sound that _I_ was talking about was represented by that tengwa, not that Dwarves wrote the word "khuzdul" using it. > Fortunately, there's Appendix E: Oops. :) Thank you for the correction. :) > >..."Galadhrim" contains the combinatin "dh", anyway, which seems to > >be a fairly common notation for the sound at the beginning of the > >word "this".) > Normally 'dh' is the sound in 'this', but I think 'dhr' might be a > special case. In English, D is usually altered when followed by R, > but in the Elvish languages a word like 'Galadrim' would be pronounced > 'galad rim', with a noticeable break between syllables. You may have more knowledge than I do on this (linguistics isn't my strongest suit, alas). I based my argument on the fact that "Galadhrim" means "tree-people" (from the Index) and that "galadh" means "tree" (from Appendix E, under the pronounciation key for DH). If this combination actually does shift in compounds, well, you've gone beyond my level of knowledge. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: tar_elenion@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 17:19:36 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 43 Message-ID: <8n6lb6$c4o$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <399589C1.46D42574@yahoo.com> <39967199.50883317@news.verio.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.197 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Aug 13 17:19:36 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 ptlum1.sfba.home.com[1809EFD3] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x61.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.197 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!oleane.net!oleane!xfer13.netnews.com!xfe11.netnews.com!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25649 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > Quoth mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells): > > (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > > >My impression for quite some time has been that the "kh" represents > > >the "ch" in Scottish "loch" or German "ich". It's represented by > > >the third _tengwa_ in the "k" series in Feanor's > > > It's the "k" series in Quenya, not necessarily in Khuzdul. The > > Tengwar don't have fixed sound values. > > To clarify a little, I meant that the sound that _I_ was talking about > was represented by that tengwa, not that Dwarves wrote the word > "khuzdul" using it. > > > Fortunately, there's Appendix E: > > Oops. :) Thank you for the correction. :) > > > >..."Galadhrim" contains the combinatin "dh", anyway, which seems to > > >be a fairly common notation for the sound at the beginning of the > > >word "this".) > > > Normally 'dh' is the sound in 'this', but I think 'dhr' might be a > > special case. In English, D is usually altered when followed by R, > > but in the Elvish languages a word like 'Galadrim' would be pronounced > > 'galad rim', with a noticeable break between syllables. > > You may have more knowledge than I do on this (linguistics isn't my > strongest suit, alas). I based my argument on the fact that > "Galadhrim" means "tree-people" (from the Index) and that "galadh" > means "tree" (from Appendix E, under the pronounciation key for DH). > If this combination actually does shift in compounds, well, you've > gone beyond my level of knowledge. :) > Steuard Jensen > See also the appendix (on Names) to 'Celeborn and Galadriel' in UT. Galadhrim= galaTHrim Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Message-ID: <3996E581.676600F9@yahoo.com> From: Opal Drake Reply-To: opalSPAMdrake@yahooBLOCK.com Organization: Left Wing Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? References: <966036838.876161@inv.ihug.co.nz> <399589C1.46D42574@yahoo.com> <3996455a@ecn.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 16 Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 18:12:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.69.130.114 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: sea-read.news.verio.net 966190371 206.69.130.114 (Sun, 13 Aug 2000 18:12:51 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 18:12:51 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sea-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25716 buhrger@ecn.ab.ca wrote: [deleted] Ack, writing 'kuzdul' did not help. I have always pronounced it with a glottal sounding 'k'. But a friend argued that the 'kh' was like the 'ch' in church. I'm not sure where he got this from. -- ****************************************************** The Opal Dragon To E-mail me, remove 'SPAM BLOCK' from return address. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 12:19:20 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 17 Message-ID: <0vsdpscd2uo81jekkvi2opt04eracc6sba@4ax.com> References: <966036838.876161@inv.ihug.co.nz> <399589C1.46D42574@yahoo.com> <3996455a@ecn.ab.ca> <3996E581.676600F9@yahoo.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!gestalt.direcpc.com.!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25714 On Sun, 13 Aug 2000 18:12:51 GMT, Opal Drake wrote: > I have always pronounced it with >a glottal sounding 'k'. But a friend argued that the 'kh' was like >the 'ch' in church. That was no friend: that was an orc masquerading as a wizard. In Khuzdul the 'kh' is an aspirated 'k' as in 'backhand'. Thus spake Sir John! Elsewhere it is like the 'ch' in German or Scots: 'bach' or 'loch', an unvoiced uvular fricative. the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Life would be much easier if I had the source code. ###### From: "Androg" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <399589C1.46D42574@yahoo.com> <39967199.50883317@news.verio.net> <8n6lb6$c4o$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 08:03:00 +1000 Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com Message-ID: <39971b6d$1@casper.southcom.com.au> X-Trace: 13 Aug 2000 22:04:29 GMT, delta.tavultesoft.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.labyrinth.net.au!casper.southcom.com.au!delta.tavultesoft.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25785 wrote in message news:8n6lb6$c4o$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article , > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > > Quoth mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells): > > > > You may have more knowledge than I do on this (linguistics isn't my > > strongest suit, alas). I based my argument on the fact that > > "Galadhrim" means "tree-people" (from the Index) and that "galadh" > > means "tree" (from Appendix E, under the pronounciation key for DH). > > If this combination actually does shift in compounds, well, you've > > gone beyond my level of knowledge. :) > > Steuard Jensen > > > See also the appendix (on Names) to 'Celeborn and Galadriel' in UT. > Galadhrim= galaTHrim You could also listen to the recording of Tolkien reciting "A Elbereth Gilthoniel", which contains the word "galadhremmin" ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8n44ld$6tr$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <41ql5.262$x3.5254@uchinews> Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Lines: 57 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 22:23:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.27.88 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 966205425 12.79.27.88 (Sun, 13 Aug 2000 22:23:45 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 22:23:45 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!bignews.mediaways.net!frnkge1-snf1.gtei.net!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!europa.netcrusader.net!204.127.161.3!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters3!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25773 "Steuard Jensen" wrote in message news:41ql5.262$x3.5254@uchinews... > This, I think, constitutes proof that Sauron had major invisible > servants _other_ than the Nazgul, which begs the usual > questions... Who? How? When? Where? What did they do? Were > they ever mentioned (or implied) in the books? Well, as it was a passing comment I think it COULD have referred only to the Nazgul (maybe several of them had 'gul' in their personal names), but there are plenty of examples of Sauron having such creatures at his command; He was called a necromancer long before the Nazgul; "Sauron was the chief servant of the evil Vala, whom he had suborned to his service in Valinor from among the people of the Gods. He was become a wizard of dreadful power, master of necromancy, foul in wisdom, cruel in strength, mis-shaping what he touched, twisting what he ruled, lord of werewolves: his dominion was torment." LROW, Quenta Silmarillion chapter 11 ~143 "Then Morgoth's servants fast him caught and he was cruelly bound, and brought to Sauron captain of the host, the lord of werewolf and ghost, most foul and fell of all who knelt at Morgoth's throne." LoB, The Lay of Leithian Recommenced ~253 "Thou fool: a phantom thou didst see that I, I Sauron, made to snare thy lovesick wits. Naught else was there. Cold 'tis with Sauron's wraiths to wed!" ~318 "Some ['Houseless' Elves] were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. ... To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one own's will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant. ... The wicked among them will take bodies, if they can, unlawfully. ... It is said that Sauron did these things, and taught his followers how to achieve them." MR, The Later Quenta Silmarillion, Of Rebirth... "Sauron was become now a sorcerer of dreadful power, master of shadows and of phantoms..." Silm, Of the Ruin of Beleriand The spirits Sauron was said to have 'imprisoned' in the bodies of wolves to create the werewolves might have been such invisible creatures in origin as well. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? References: <8n44ld$6tr$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <41ql5.262$x3.5254@uchinews> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 25 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 966216267 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:24:27 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:24:27 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 01:24:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25730 Quoth "Conrad Dunkerson" : > "Steuard Jensen" wrote: > > This, I think, constitutes proof that Sauron had major invisible > > servants _other_ than the Nazgul... > Well, as it was a passing comment I think it COULD have referred > only to the Nazgul (maybe several of them had 'gul' in their > personal names) I'll agree that it _could_ have, but I don't see the etymological necessity. If "gul" meant "major invisible servant dominated by Sauron's will", and the only such entities were the Ringwraiths, then why would the compound "Nazgul" ever have formed? > but there are plenty of examples of Sauron having such creatures at > his command; I'm wondering, though, which the "major" ones were, and if we ever hear anything about them. :) I have a feeling that we don't, more's the pity. Are there any events in Middle-earth's history that could be explained well by the actions of such servants? (And incidentally, if Sauron had invisible servants in the First Age, couldn't he have use them to scout out the location of Gondolin and Nargothrond unobserved?) Steuard Jensen ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <3997cc85.139707940@news.verio.net> References: <8n44ld$6tr$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <41ql5.262$x3.5254@uchinews> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 23 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 10:44:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.139 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 966249840 198.172.26.139 (Mon, 14 Aug 2000 10:44:00 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 10:44:00 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25765 On Mon, 14 Aug 2000 01:24:27 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >> but there are plenty of examples of Sauron having such creatures at >> his command; > >I'm wondering, though, which the "major" ones were, and if we ever One that specifically comes to mind is the phantom that impersonated Gorlim's wife. >hear anything about them. :) I have a feeling that we don't, more's >the pity. Are there any events in Middle-earth's history that could >be explained well by the actions of such servants? (And incidentally, >if Sauron had invisible servants in the First Age, couldn't he have >use them to scout out the location of Gondolin and Nargothrond >unobserved?) Sure, if Gondolin and Nargothrond were completely undefended against such spies. "Against both the seen and the unseen they have great power." ###### From: "Morgil" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8n44ld$6tr$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <41ql5.262$x3.5254@uchinews> <3997cc85.139707940@news.verio.net> Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Lines: 20 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <%nVl5.262$q57.24964@read2.inet.fi> Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 16:46:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.197.66.116 X-Trace: read2.inet.fi 966271611 194.197.66.116 (Mon, 14 Aug 2000 19:46:51 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 19:46:51 EET DST Organization: Sonera corp Internet services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!nntp.inet.fi!central.inet.fi!inet.fi!read2.inet.fi.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25756 Mark Wells kirjoitti viestissä <3997cc85.139707940@news.verio.net>... >On Mon, 14 Aug 2000 01:24:27 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu >(Steuard Jensen) wrote: > >>> but there are plenty of examples of Sauron having such creatures at >>> his command; >> >>I'm wondering, though, which the "major" ones were, and if we ever > >One that specifically comes to mind is the phantom that impersonated >Gorlim's wife. I think that was just a hallucination, and an easy one to make, because Gorlim desperately wanted to see his wife. Morgil ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <399843d5.170257216@news.verio.net> References: <8n44ld$6tr$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> <41ql5.262$x3.5254@uchinews> <3997cc85.139707940@news.verio.net> <%nVl5.262$q57.24964@read2.inet.fi> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 24 Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 19:23:32 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.136 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 966280962 198.172.26.136 (Mon, 14 Aug 2000 19:22:42 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 19:22:42 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25761 On Mon, 14 Aug 2000 16:46:51 GMT, "Morgil" wrote: >>One that specifically comes to mind is the phantom that impersonated >>Gorlim's wife. > > >I think that was just a hallucination, and an easy one to make, because >Gorlim desperately wanted to see his wife. You're right. It was completely dominated by Sauron's will, so it had no independent existence. Sauron would not want to waste effort[0] by giving this phantom any more existence than necessary, so I would guess that it would be visible only to Gorlim, and tangible to no one. In that case, I suppose one could call it an illusion or hallucination, though Sauron probably wouldn't describe it like that. [0] Sauron comes across (to me, at least) as being obsessed with efficiency, much like Darth Vader; some comments in _Morgoth's Ring_ seem to support this. ###### From: Chris Csernica Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:08:10 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8ncbfa$m9p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8n1iun$kbo$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.31.86.34 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Aug 15 21:08:10 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x62.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 192.31.86.34 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDcaptaincarrot Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25883 In article , "Brett Hainley" wrote: > Actually French is a mixture of Gaelic and Latin (compare French to Irish > Gaelic), There is a significant admixture of the Germanic Frankish language in French (Hence "French.") According to the Ethnologue, there is a 29% lexical similarity between German and French. The vast majority of similarities you find between French and Gaelic are either Latin borrowings common to both languages, or commonalities as Indo-European languages. and English is a true bastard, with origins in German, Latin, > French, and Celtic, combined with contributions from various other peoples. There are *very* few "Celtic" borrowings in English. Most of these are geographical features for which there were no equivalents in Saxon, or place names. -- Chris Csernica Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Chris Csernica Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:14:43 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <8ncbrh$mt0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8n1iun$kbo$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.31.86.34 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Aug 15 21:14:43 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x62.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 192.31.86.34 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDcaptaincarrot Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25886 In article , "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > Gaulish, the Celtic > language spoken before the Roman conquest, is very distantly related to > Gaelic; it belonged to the same branch of Celtic languages as Welsh. I hope you're not thinking here of Breton as representative of a Continental Celtic language. Brittany was depopulated by the 4th century; it was recolonized from Dumnonia. Breton thus represents an earlier *insular* Celtic tongue and is, as such, very closely related to Welsh and Cornish. -- Chris Csernica Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Chris Csernica Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:16:10 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 13 Message-ID: <8ncbu7$mv7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <3994A4E1.99059CA4@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.31.86.34 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Aug 15 21:16:10 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x62.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 192.31.86.34 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDcaptaincarrot Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.tele.dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!codeine.org!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25880 In article <3994A4E1.99059CA4@yahoo.com>, opalSPAMdrake@yahooBLOCK.com wrote: > After all, while they don't go around shouting out > 'Sauron' everywhere, characters do mention him by name quite often. Of course, "Sauron" isn't Black Speech. It's Sindarin. -- Chris Csernica Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Chris Csernica Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:19:50 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8ncc52$n1b$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <966036838.876161@inv.ihug.co.nz> <399589C1.46D42574@yahoo.com> <8n47l5$3ge$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.31.86.34 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Aug 15 21:19:50 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x62.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 192.31.86.34 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDcaptaincarrot Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.tele.dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!oleane.net!oleane!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25877 In article <8n47l5$3ge$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>, "Aris Katsaris" wrote: > > Opal Drake wrote in message > news:399589C1.46D42574@yahoo.com... > > > > Out of curiousity, how is Khuzdul pronounced? Some friends and I got > > into an argument over this. Is it pronounced 'kuzdul' or 'chuzdul'? > > I think it's pronounced khuzdul, "k" and "h" both pronounced. I believe that "kh" is like the Greek "X" or the Scottish "ch". Tolkien used "kh" instead because it looks foreign or "uncouth" to English eyes. -- Chris Csernica Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Chris Csernica Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:50:34 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8ncdv3$p52$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8n44ld$6tr$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.31.86.34 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Aug 15 21:50:34 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x63.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 192.31.86.34 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDcaptaincarrot Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25878 In article <8n44ld$6tr$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>, "O. Sharp" wrote: > Maybe he could even have ordered his breakfast in the Black Speech ("I'd > like some _ul'ush_, over easy, with a side of _pagazh_ and some > _takatulug_, and maybe a glass of _flag'dh org-d'zhul_" * ) without > objection. Well, I'll have the frim-fram sauce with the ossafeel, and shifeiffer on the side. (Or however you spell that) -- Chris Csernica And if you don't got that, just bring me a check for the water! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Robert Brady Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 23:08:17 +0100 Organization: Customer of Energis Squared Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <3994A4E1.99059CA4@yahoo.com> <8ncbu7$mv7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-3.colorado.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news8.svr.pol.co.uk 966377916 12588 62.137.57.3 (15 Aug 2000 22:18:36 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Aug 2000 22:18:36 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.16 (i586)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25881 Chris Csernica wrote: > In article <3994A4E1.99059CA4@yahoo.com>, > opalSPAMdrake@yahooBLOCK.com wrote: >> After all, while they don't go around shouting out >> 'Sauron' everywhere, characters do mention him by name quite often. > Of course, "Sauron" isn't Black Speech. It's Sindarin. Nope, Quenya, coming from the root THUS. Sindarin form given as "Thu" or "Morthu" in the Etymologies. -- Robert ###### From: Robert Brady Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 23:14:02 +0100 Organization: Customer of Energis Squared Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <966036838.876161@inv.ihug.co.nz> <399589C1.46D42574@yahoo.com> <8n47l5$3ge$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8ncc52$n1b$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-3.colorado.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news8.svr.pol.co.uk 966377918 12588 62.137.57.3 (15 Aug 2000 22:18:38 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Aug 2000 22:18:38 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.16 (i586)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!unlisys!news.snafu.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25887 Chris Csernica wrote: > I believe that "kh" is like the Greek "X" or the Scottish "ch". Tolkien > used "kh" instead because it looks foreign or "uncouth" to English eyes. (a) For /x/, Tolkien writes - c.f. Rochand, the Elvish-Sindarin (as opposed to the dialect spoken in Gondor) name of Rohan. (b) Quite explicit pronounciation rules are given in Appendix E. These make the aspirated unvoiced velar stop. (i.e as in backhand). -- Robert ###### From: "Androg" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <966036838.876161@inv.ihug.co.nz> <399589C1.46D42574@yahoo.com> <8n47l5$3ge$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8ncc52$n1b$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 08:54:19 +1000 Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com Message-ID: <3999ca7b$1@casper.southcom.com.au> X-Trace: 15 Aug 2000 22:55:55 GMT, delta.tavultesoft.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.labyrinth.net.au!casper.southcom.com.au!delta.tavultesoft.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25910 Chris Csernica wrote in message news:8ncc52$n1b$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <8n47l5$3ge$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>, > "Aris Katsaris" wrote: > > > > Opal Drake wrote in message > > news:399589C1.46D42574@yahoo.com... > > > > > > > Out of curiousity, how is Khuzdul pronounced? Some friends and I > got > > > into an argument over this. Is it pronounced 'kuzdul' or 'chuzdul'? > > > > I think it's pronounced khuzdul, "k" and "h" both pronounced. > > I believe that "kh" is like the Greek "X" or the Scottish "ch". Tolkien > used "kh" instead because it looks foreign or "uncouth" to English eyes. In the elvish languages, 'kh' would be pronounced this way. In Khuzdul, however, it is pronounced the way Aris said... This is covered in the appendices, by the way. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 16:29:24 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <966036838.876161@inv.ihug.co.nz> <399589C1.46D42574@yahoo.com> <8n47l5$3ge$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8ncc52$n1b$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25944 On Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:19:50 GMT, Chris Csernica wrote: > >I believe that "kh" is like the Greek "X" or the Scottish "ch". Tolkien >used "kh" instead because it looks foreign or "uncouth" to English eyes. > Except in Khuzdul. JRRT explicitly stated that the 'kh' in Khuzdul is an aspirated 'k' as in 'backhand'. the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "I get to go to lots of overseas places, like Canada." -- Britney Spears ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? References: <3994A4E1.99059CA4@yahoo.com> <8ncbu7$mv7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: coren@spdcc.com Organization: Pigs in Blankets From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Lines: 19 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 04:22:36 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.237.113 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 966399756 24.128.237.113 (Wed, 16 Aug 2000 00:22:36 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 00:22:36 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25937 In article , Robert Brady wrote: >Chris Csernica wrote: >> In article <3994A4E1.99059CA4@yahoo.com>, >> opalSPAMdrake@yahooBLOCK.com wrote: > >>> After all, while they don't go around shouting out >>> 'Sauron' everywhere, characters do mention him by name quite often. > >> Of course, "Sauron" isn't Black Speech. It's Sindarin. > >Nope, Quenya, coming from the root THUS. Sindarin form given >as "Thu" or "Morthu" in the Etymologies. Also "Gorthaur". -- ---Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)------- "My homosexuality is neither strange, surprising, unusual, or silly." --FJ!! van Wingerde ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8n1iun$kbo$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8ncbrh$mt0$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Lines: 18 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.97.186 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 966453964 212.151.97.186 (Wed, 16 Aug 2000 21:26:04 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 21:26:04 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: unknown@d212-151-97-186.swipnet.se Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 21:28:24 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25996 Chris Csernica hath written: [snip] > >I hope you're not thinking here of Breton as representative of a >Continental Celtic language. Brittany was depopulated by the 4th >century; it was recolonized from Dumnonia. Breton thus represents an >earlier *insular* Celtic tongue and is, as such, very closely related to >Welsh and Cornish. I know that; but apparently Gaulish, notwithstanding the fact that it was a Continental Celtic language, was rather closely related to Old British - much closer than to Gaelic. Öjevind ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 02:04:48 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 20 Message-ID: <8nps1j$848$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <3994A4E1.99059CA4@yahoo.com> <8ncbu7$mv7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o145.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 966816627 8328 212.205.252.145 (21 Aug 2000 00:10:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Aug 2000 00:10:27 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!blackbush.xlink.net!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.belwue.de!news.tesion.net!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26213 Robert Brady wrote in message news:h0fcn8.sm4.ln@janus.arrow... > Chris Csernica wrote: > > In article <3994A4E1.99059CA4@yahoo.com>, > > opalSPAMdrake@yahooBLOCK.com wrote: > > >> After all, while they don't go around shouting out > >> 'Sauron' everywhere, characters do mention him by name quite often. > > > Of course, "Sauron" isn't Black Speech. It's Sindarin. > > Nope, Quenya, coming from the root THUS. Sindarin form given > as "Thu" or "Morthu" in the Etymologies. Gorthaur was his Sindarin name. Thu was discarded long ago by Tolkien... Aris Katsaris ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3994A4E1.99059CA4@yahoo.com> <8ncbu7$mv7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8nps1j$848$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> Subject: Re: Why "Nazgul"? Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <8SSp5.19786$%O6.1255311@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 17:10:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.73.33 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 967309828 12.78.73.33 (Sat, 26 Aug 2000 17:10:28 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 17:10:28 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.20!wnmasters3!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26409 "Aris Katsaris" wrote in message news:8nps1j$848$1@newssrv.otenet.gr... >> Nope, Quenya, coming from the root THUS. Sindarin form given >> as "Thu" or "Morthu" in the Etymologies. > Gorthaur was his Sindarin name. Thu was discarded long ago by > Tolkien... Not all that long. It endured at least up to the start of LotR. Of course 'Gorthaur' is only a variant on Gorthu > Morthu > Thu.