From: C R Nugent Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: The Zen of Dwarves Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 04:35:46 +0100 Organization: Cybercom Corporation, College Station, Texas Lines: 27 Message-ID: <3977C512.870C48DC@tamu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp296.cy-net.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.cy-net.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24066 I have no great love for Dwarves. Mind you, I don't wish them ill, they're just not my favorite characters of Middle Earth. But when I pick up the Red Book, especially after a long time, I open it to The Road to Isengard and read Gimli's emotional description of Helm's Deep. I might have to say it is my favorite descriptive passage in the tome. Maybe it's his prolonged exposure to the fairer races that makes Gimli so poetic. Maybe it is his weariness of war. Nevertheless, only the Elves come as close to a description of a place that transcends mere description; that expresses a oneness with it. I've seen the outside of caves in Florida (too chicken to explore the rest. See, you have to scuba dive to enter) and they come close to some of the account, in certain respects, and I wonder what is JRR's inspiration for the Caves of Helms Deep. Anyone know? Chris -- C R Nugent mailto:nugent@txcyber.com "...and when we wished we would drive away the night that has lain there since the hills were made; and when we desired rest, we would let the night return." -Gimli ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Zen of Dwarves Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 02:04:04 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 20 Message-ID: <8615-3977E7D4-25@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <3977C512.870C48DC@tamu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhRWs5P5/xLryDRvV6GviKLEdjkhXAIUTdx7CnXY/chhSUyZBt/gRgGd06w= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23981 C R Nugent wrote: >I have no great love for Dwarves. Elf lover! >But when I pick up the Red Book, >especially after a long time, I open it to >The Road to Isengard and read Gimli's >emotional description of Helm's Deep. I >might have to say it is my favorite >descriptive passage in the tome. Yes, that is one of the best parts of the books, and it is one of the reasons the Gimli is one of the best characters in the book. It's a lot more interesting than hearing Legolas say, "Look! More trees! Happy, happy, joy, joy!" (Sindars......). --Dave ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Zen of Dwarves Message-ID: References: <3977C512.870C48DC@tamu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 19 Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 19:44:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.12 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 964295099 208.170.95.12 (Sat, 22 Jul 2000 14:44:59 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 14:44:59 CDT Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!hub.org!hub.org!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24269 In article <3977C512.870C48DC@tamu.edu>, C R Nugent wrote: > I've seen the outside of caves in Florida (too chicken to explore the > rest. See, you have to scuba dive to enter) and they come close to some > of the account, in certain respects, and I wonder what is JRR's > inspiration for the Caves of Helms Deep. Anyone know? They were inspired by the caves at Cheddar Gorge, Somerset. (The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, #321, p. 407). I've found some web pictures of the caves at http://www.pigpen.demon.co.uk/caves.htm. Unfortunately the caves have become something of a tourist trap, and have suffered from vandalism. Tolkien saw these caves in 1916 and again in 1940, just before writing the Aglarond passage. Pictures of the Gorge itself suggest that it may also have been the model for the upper part of Helm's Deep (take a look at http://www.swparks.com/uk/travel/somerset_wiltshire/piccheddar1.html or http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~plk/History/FeaturesBritain/PreHistoryGorf e.htm or http://www.pigpen.demon.co.uk/gorge.htm). David Salo ###### From: Robert Brady Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Zen of Dwarves Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 21:27:58 +0100 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <3977C512.870C48DC@tamu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-6.nobelium.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk 964300450 28551 62.136.70.134 (22 Jul 2000 21:14:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 22 Jul 2000 21:14:10 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.16 (i586)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!news.vas-net.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24182 David Salo wrote: > They were inspired by the caves at Cheddar Gorge, Somerset. (The Letters > of J.R.R. Tolkien, #321, p. 407). I've found some web pictures of the > caves at http://www.pigpen.demon.co.uk/caves.htm. Unfortunately the caves > have become something of a tourist trap, and have suffered from vandalism. Nethertheless, it is still breathtaking in it's beauty. (or at least it was a few years ago when I last went). I'd highly recommend anyone visiting the area to go there - as Legolas found, words cannot express the wonderfulnessof it. -- Robert ###### From: "Dany Belinfante" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3977C512.870C48DC@tamu.edu> <8615-3977E7D4-25@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <8lc6fg$471eu$1@ID-23037.news.cis.dfn.de> Subject: Re: The Zen of Dwarves Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 23:36:50 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.48.56.67 X-Complaints-To: abuse@zonnet.nl X-Trace: zonnet-reader-1 964301986 212.48.56.67 (Sat, 22 Jul 2000 23:39:46 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 23:39:46 MET DST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!zonnet-feed!zonnet-reader-1.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24204 Andrew Wells schreef in berichtnieuws 8lc6fg$471eu$1@ID-23037.news.cis.dfn.de... > David Sulger wrote in message > <8615-3977E7D4-25@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net>... > >Elf lover! > > > But who couldn't love an elf! Those cute pointy ears, those bright eyese, > those long legs ... And that's just the male ones... Hehe. Dany ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Zen of Dwarves Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 01:10:29 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 10 Message-ID: <18406-397A7E45-115@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <8lc6fg$471eu$1@ID-23037.news.cis.dfn.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAqAxmcsE+Z5QQeciQwogzNTV4s9YCFAxn8Q7siMMT4O7bai4xwsm8Pjfu Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24180 Andrew Wells wrote: >But who couldn't love an elf! Those cute >pointy ears, those bright eyese, those >long legs ... But they don't put out, so what's the point in desiring one? :) --Dave