From: "Morgil" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Reincarnation of Elves Lines: 41 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 00:15:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.142.87.71 X-Trace: read2.inet.fi 963965752 194.142.87.71 (Wed, 19 Jul 2000 03:15:52 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 03:15:52 EET DST Organization: Sonera corp Internet services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!nntp.inet.fi!central.inet.fi!inet.fi!read2.inet.fi.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23811 China Blue Ribbon Commission kirjoitti viestissä ... > >In JRRT's stories, the body can die, but not the soul; and the soul of an >Elf is still confined to the world. Depending on how many brownie points >(or pooka points?) the particular Elf has, she will be reclothed in new >body after a period of reflection and perhaps penance. > >The Glorfindel of Gondolin did die in the Eagle's Pass, and his soul >passed on to the West. And after a time, he was given physicality again. > For some reason I still find this reincarnation-thing hard to accept. When exactly did Tolkien came to this conclusion? Did he only invent it to explain why there was two completely similar Glorfindels? Are there any other mentions about reincarnations? (I guess the one about Finrod hanging around with his dad.) And most importantly: If this was true, shouldn´t it have a major influece to the Elves view of life? -"I´m afraid your husband is dead, Mrs. Melian." -"Oh well. He´ll soon be reincarnated again. A cup of coffee while we´re waiting?" And what was the big deal about Kinslayings, if the victims are given new bodies after a while? And why was Feanor so strucken by his fathers death, if he was going to reappear at any time. The whole idea really takes out all the point about Silmarillion as a tragedy, if every time an Elf dies you think: Oh but he´s reincarnating again soon enough. At least I find much more believable the idea that the Spirits of dead Elves went to the Halls of Mandos and stayed there until Dagor Dagorath. Morgil ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 79 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 963992212 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 19 Jul 2000 02:36:52 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 02:36:52 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:36:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!triton.skycache.com!128.174.5.49!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23784 Quoth "Morgil" : > China Blue Ribbon Commission kirjoitti viestissä ... > >In JRRT's stories, the body can die, but not the soul; and the soul > >of an Elf is still confined to the world. > For some reason I still find this reincarnation-thing hard to accept. > When exactly did Tolkien came to this conclusion? "...whereas the Eldar dwell till the Great End unless they be slain or waste in grief (for to both of these deaths are they subject), nor doth eld subdue their strength, except it may be in ten thousand centuries; and dying they are reborn in their children, so that their number minishes not, nor grows." --"The Music of the Ainur", _The Book of Lost Tales I_; estimated date of composition 1918-1920 In other words, _some_ sort of reincarnation for Elves has been a part of the mythology from its very beginning. Tolkien did flip flop on the question of rebirth vs. reincarnation for some time, but his most careful analyses seem to support the latter. I'd go so far as to say that the _absolute_ immortality of the Elves (within Ea) is one of the most fundamental themes of the entire legendarium. > Are there any other mentions about reincarnations? Lots and lots. :) Look for it the next time you read through Silm., and you'll see it all over the place. :) > And most importantly: If this was true, shouldn´t it have a major > influece to the Elves view of life? It most certainly did! If you're really interested, find a copy of the "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" in _Morgoth's Ring_, which _really_ shows the concerns of the Elves about their own fate. (Keep in mind that there's no promise that the souls of Elves will exist after the end of Ea, while Men's souls pass beyond Ea completely and are thus truly immortal.) To answer your question more directly, the Elves had little control or even influence over their reincarnation or the timing of it (usually), at least once they were dead. I can't imagine it was a pleasant experience, either. I wouldn't be surprised if even the best of the Elves spent hundreds of years in Mandos before they were given a chance to return. In that time, they would have no way of influencing the world outside, and would have to watch as the causes they cared about failed in their absence. Moreover, it seems that the Valar were quite reluctant to allow them to go back and rejoin their friends and loved ones over the sea (which may explain why Melian left Middle-earth upon Thingol's death). > And why was Feanor so strucken by his fathers death, if he > was going to reappear at any time. Feanor was already pissed off because his mother died and chose NOT to return. Death was a rather new thing to the Elves of Valinor at the time, and Miriel had been pretty much the only example of it that they'd seen. She stayed dead, no matter what the Valar said about her true nature. As it turned out, Finwe _also_ stayed dead (or perhaps more accurately, he stayed dead in her place). I think this, too, is discussed in detail in HoMe X. :) > The whole idea really takes out all the point about Silmarillion as > a tragedy, if every time an Elf dies you think: Oh but he´s > reincarnating again soon enough. It does? Everything they lived for, fought for, cared for ended up in failure and destruction, and those who rebelled knew that they would be held for many long ages in Mandos before they would ever be allowed back into the living world... and once they were, they were almost invariably confined to Valinor or Eressea, far from the shores of Middle-earth. Knowing that you had one real chance to make a difference in the world, and that you blew it... that's tragedy, regardless of your eventual life or death. And when the Great End comes, you're history, as far as you or anyone else knows. One chance. Just one. And it's gone. Anyway, those are my thoughts. Blast... it's gotten too late again. 'Night, everyone. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: jabbakie@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:37:12 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8l3lr7$6ks$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.230.233.1 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Jul 19 07:37:12 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 LS, 1.0 main.datagroup.ro:1080 (Squid/2.2.STABLE4), 1.0 x52.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 10.0.1.2, 193.230.233.1 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDjabbakie Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23802 Morgil, maybe is that re-embodiment of the Elves only take place in just some special cases , when direct divine intervention is altering the normal way to the Halls of mandos.Something like (quoting from FAQ): ..." Tolkien's conception was that a creature's natural lifespan was intrinsic to its spiritual and biological nature, and that this could not be altered save by a direct intervention of the Creator. There were three occasions when this did happen (Luthien, Tuor, Arwen)"... and we can count two more for Glorfindel and Finrod? What do you think? Jabba -Do not speak the Truth!- Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 18 Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 12:45:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.215.43.187 X-Complaints-To: abuse@asiaonline.net X-Trace: news.interact.net.au 964010745 210.215.43.187 (Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:45:45 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:45:45 EST Organization: an Asia Online client - http://www.asiaonline.net/ X-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:45:45 EST (news.interact.net.au) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.can.connect.com.au!news.interact.net.au!raka Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23869 On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:36:52 GMT, Steuard Jensen wrote: >the question of rebirth vs. reincarnation for some time, but his most >careful analyses seem to support the latter. I'd go so far as to say Ehh? My only experience with the rebirth vs. reincarnation dichtomonomy comes from Buddhist dogma. In this case the preferance for the word "rebirth" comes from the beleif in the nonexistence of the soul. I doubt Tolkien would have flip-floped on this issue. Hmm, now answering my own question, perhaps you meant something like "rebirth" is being reincarnated as a baby, wheras "reincarnation" is being restored to you old body, Jesus style. >that the _absolute_ immortality of the Elves (within Ea) is one of the >most fundamental themes of the entire legendarium. Yep. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 18:33:18 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8l4hq0$ghf$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8l3lr7$6ks$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-a099.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 964020864 16943 212.205.240.99 (19 Jul 2000 15:34:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jul 2000 15:34:24 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23819 wrote in message news:8l3lr7$6ks$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Morgil, > maybe is that re-embodiment of the Elves only take place in just some > special cases , when direct divine intervention is altering the normal > way to the Halls of mandos.Something like (quoting from FAQ): > ..." Tolkien's conception was that a creature's natural lifespan was > intrinsic to its spiritual and biological nature, and that this could > not be altered save by a direct intervention of the Creator. There were > three occasions when this did happen (Luthien, Tuor, Arwen)"... > and we can count two more for Glorfindel and Finrod? > > What do you think? No. An elf's natural lifespan is the lifespan of Ea. Therefore it was Glorfindel's and Finrod's death that was unnatural, not their re-embodiment. There have been tons of mentions of reembodied elves, and only a handful of known exception about elves that *won't* be reembodied, such as Feanor... Aris Katsaris ###### From: jaaguke@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 17:24:37 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 97 Message-ID: <8l4o7s$vre$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.40.56.245 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Jul 19 17:24:37 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.14 i686) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 cache.eenet.ee:3128 (Squid/2.3.STABLE3), 1.0 x52.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 193.40.253.97, 193.40.56.245 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDjaaguke Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23806 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > Quoth "Morgil" : > > China Blue Ribbon Commission kirjoitti viestissä ... > > >In JRRT's stories, the body can die, but not the soul; and the soul > > >of an Elf is still confined to the world. > > > For some reason I still find this reincarnation-thing hard to accept. > > When exactly did Tolkien came to this conclusion? > > "...whereas the Eldar dwell till the Great End unless they be slain > or waste in grief (for to both of these deaths are they subject), > nor doth eld subdue their strength, except it may be in ten > thousand centuries; and dying they are reborn in their children, so > that their number minishes not, nor grows." > --"The Music of the Ainur", _The Book of Lost Tales I_; > estimated date of composition 1918-1920 > > In other words, _some_ sort of reincarnation for Elves has been a part > of the mythology from its very beginning. Tolkien did flip flop on > the question of rebirth vs. reincarnation for some time, but his most > careful analyses seem to support the latter. I'd go so far as to say > that the _absolute_ immortality of the Elves (within Ea) is one of the > most fundamental themes of the entire legendarium. > > > Are there any other mentions about reincarnations? > > Lots and lots. :) Look for it the next time you read through Silm., > and you'll see it all over the place. :) > > > And most importantly: If this was true, shouldn´t it have a major > > influece to the Elves view of life? > > It most certainly did! If you're really interested, find a copy of > the "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" in _Morgoth's Ring_, which _really_ > shows the concerns of the Elves about their own fate. (Keep in mind > that there's no promise that the souls of Elves will exist after the > end of Ea, while Men's souls pass beyond Ea completely and are thus > truly immortal.) > > To answer your question more directly, the Elves had little control > or even influence over their reincarnation or the timing of it > (usually), at least once they were dead. I can't imagine it was a > pleasant experience, either. I wouldn't be surprised if even the best > of the Elves spent hundreds of years in Mandos before they were given > a chance to return. In that time, they would have no way of > influencing the world outside, and would have to watch as the causes > they cared about failed in their absence. Moreover, it seems that the > Valar were quite reluctant to allow them to go back and rejoin their > friends and loved ones over the sea (which may explain why Melian left > Middle-earth upon Thingol's death). > > > And why was Feanor so strucken by his fathers death, if he > > was going to reappear at any time. > > Feanor was already pissed off because his mother died and chose NOT to > return. Death was a rather new thing to the Elves of Valinor at the > time, and Miriel had been pretty much the only example of it that > they'd seen. She stayed dead, no matter what the Valar said about her > true nature. As it turned out, Finwe _also_ stayed dead (or perhaps > more accurately, he stayed dead in her place). I think this, too, is > discussed in detail in HoMe X. :) > > > The whole idea really takes out all the point about Silmarillion as > > a tragedy, if every time an Elf dies you think: Oh but he´s > > reincarnating again soon enough. > > It does? Everything they lived for, fought for, cared for ended up in > failure and destruction, and those who rebelled knew that they would > be held for many long ages in Mandos before they would ever be allowed > back into the living world... and once they were, they were almost > invariably confined to Valinor or Eressea, far from the shores of > Middle-earth. Knowing that you had one real chance to make a > difference in the world, and that you blew it... that's tragedy, > regardless of your eventual life or death. And when the Great End > comes, you're history, as far as you or anyone else knows. One > chance. Just one. And it's gone Steuard Jensen The descriptions do not give a detailed description, but it seems that the Elves who are reincarnated are reborn. That is, they have a second childhood - and second set of parents(unless the original parents are still around and can have the same child again) The inability of Elves to achieve rebirth on their own account seems clear, as is the policy of Mandos to deny rebirth to many of them. As for policy of not allowing rebirth on Middle-Earth, it has been stated that no Elves were born more than twice, as an Elf twice killed would not want to live any longer. Which implies that many elves did get killed twice - which is only likely on Middle-earth. Besides, a dead Elf might go to Halls of Mandos or refuse. In the latter case he might stay a ghost - or enlist in the service of Melkor. A ghost could not gain rebirth, but Melkor might perhaps be able or willing to grant it - I have heard a question whether the Orcs were reborn, but not the answer. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:22:16 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 37 Message-ID: <8l4v7h$lu0$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-a093.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 964034609 22464 212.205.240.93 (19 Jul 2000 19:23:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jul 2000 19:23:29 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23816 Adrian Ratnapala wrote in message news:slrn8nb8di.18h.raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au... > On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:36:52 GMT, > Steuard Jensen wrote: > > >the question of rebirth vs. reincarnation for some time, but his most > >careful analyses seem to support the latter. I'd go so far as to say > Ehh? My only experience with the rebirth vs. reincarnation dichtomonomy comes > from Buddhist dogma. In this case the preferance for the word "rebirth" comes > from the beleif in the nonexistence of the soul. I doubt Tolkien would have > flip-floped on this issue. > > Hmm, now answering my own question, perhaps you meant something > like "rebirth" is being reincarnated as a baby, wheras "reincarnation" > is being restored to you old body, Jesus style. Actually Tolkien came to accept that the houseless fea of the slain elves was helped by the Vala to reconstruct the form of his body (whose memory the soul retained intact). I think that Tolkien decided against the idea of rebirth and chose instead the above method. That's what Steuard meant by reincarnation vs rebirth. The elves aren't born again. They simply construct a new body to dwell within... Aris Katsaris > > >that the _absolute_ immortality of the Elves (within Ea) is one of the > >most fundamental themes of the entire legendarium. > Yep. > ###### From: "Morgil" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Lines: 75 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <3jrd5.464$aQ4.43893@read2.inet.fi> Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 00:01:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.197.13.160 X-Trace: read2.inet.fi 964051263 194.197.13.160 (Thu, 20 Jul 2000 03:01:03 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 03:01:03 EET DST Organization: Sonera corp Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!newsfeeds.saunalahti.fi!nntp.inet.fi!central.inet.fi!inet.fi!read2.inet.fi.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23902 Steuard Jensen kirjoitti viestissä ... >Quoth "Morgil" : >> China Blue Ribbon Commission kirjoitti viestissä ... >> >In JRRT's stories, the body can die, but not the soul; and the soul >> >of an Elf is still confined to the world. > >> For some reason I still find this reincarnation-thing hard to accept. >> When exactly did Tolkien came to this conclusion? > > "...whereas the Eldar dwell till the Great End unless they be slain > or waste in grief (for to both of these deaths are they subject), > nor doth eld subdue their strength, except it may be in ten > thousand centuries; and dying they are reborn in their children, so > that their number minishes not, nor grows." > --"The Music of the Ainur", _The Book of Lost Tales I_; > estimated date of composition 1918-1920 I wonder why the rebirth-part was taken off in the version that was put in the Silmarillion(chapter one, last page). I only have Finnish version and it says something like: " and when they die, they gather to the Halls of Mandos in Valinor, from where they once returned." (To be honest, that last sentence sounds little strange. Could some- body tell, how it goes in the English version?(and what it means?)) > >In other words, _some_ sort of reincarnation for Elves has been a part >of the mythology from its very beginning. Tolkien did flip flop on >the question of rebirth vs. reincarnation for some time, but his most >careful analyses seem to support the latter. I'd go so far as to say >that the _absolute_ immortality of the Elves (within Ea) is one of the >most fundamental themes of the entire legendarium. I agree with this, but I figured this ment that their souls never left Ea, unlike Human souls, but dwelled there in a bodiless form. Anyway, the idea of rebirth, perhaps in a new form and without exact memories of the past life sounds a lot more reasonable then total reincarnation. It´s pretty much same thing as many religions have about transmigration of souls (Hindus, Buddhists, Shamanists.) > >> Are there any other mentions about reincarnations? > >Lots and lots. :) Look for it the next time you read through Silm., >and you'll see it all over the place. :) I hope you´re not exaggerating here. ;) An exemple or two would be nice. I did discover some mentions: -Miriel not returning to her body. -Feanor not leaving the Halls of Mandos(implicating that others did) -Finrod walking with his father in Eldamar. However, the story of Beren and Luthien seems to suggest that Luthien was given a choice as a special priviledge, to live again in Valimar, even though she chose othervice. > >> And most importantly: If this was true, shouldn´t it have a major >> influece to the Elves view of life? > >It most certainly did! If you're really interested, find a copy of >the "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" in _Morgoth's Ring_, which _really_ >shows the concerns of the Elves about their own fate. (Keep in mind >that there's no promise that the souls of Elves will exist after the >end of Ea, while Men's souls pass beyond Ea completely and are thus >truly immortal.) > I will do that. (Hopefully I can find the book from library, I really can´t afford to buy it right now. :( ) I snipped the rest off, but thanks for your answers anyway. It seems I need to regroup my thoughts about this issue and it may take some time (It usually takes for me :) ). But I gotta tell you that I´m still far away from accepting the total reconstruction of the body -theory. Morgil ###### From: "Morgil" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8l3lr7$6ks$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8l4hq0$ghf$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Lines: 18 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 00:01:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.197.13.160 X-Trace: read2.inet.fi 964051277 194.197.13.160 (Thu, 20 Jul 2000 03:01:17 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 03:01:17 EET DST Organization: Sonera corp Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!unlisys!news.snafu.de!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!newsfeeds.saunalahti.fi!nntp.inet.fi!central.inet.fi!inet.fi!read2.inet.fi.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23904 Aris Katsaris kirjoitti viestissä <8l4hq0$ghf$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>... > >No. An elf's natural lifespan is the lifespan of Ea. Therefore it was >Glorfindel's >and Finrod's death that was unnatural, not their re-embodiment. > >There have been tons of mentions of reembodied elves, and only a handful >of known exception about elves that *won't* be reembodied, such as >Feanor... > What kind of mentions and where? Exemples would be nice. :) Morgil ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8l4o7s$vre$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 54 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 964073902 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 20 Jul 2000 01:18:22 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 01:18:22 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 06:18:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!triton.skycache.com!128.174.5.49!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23888 First of all, try to trim down the material that you include from previous posts when replying. In most circumstances, the _complete_ post that you are replying to is still available to be reread at need, so it is sufficient to quote only a few central comments to which you are replying specifically. See my comments in the Tolkien Newsgroups FAQ for a bit more detail, or read the articles that are supposed to be posted regularly to news.announce.newusers (from which a good bit of my own knowledge of netiquette is drawn). > > Quoth "Morgil" : > > > For some reason I still find this reincarnation-thing hard to > > > accept. When exactly did Tolkien came to this conclusion? > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > > ..._some_ sort of reincarnation for Elves has been a part of the > > mythology from its very beginning. Tolkien did flip flop on the > > question of rebirth vs. reincarnation for some time, but his most > > careful analyses seem to support the latter. I'd go so far as to > > say that the _absolute_ immortality of the Elves (within Ea) is > > one of the most fundamental themes of the entire legendarium. Quoth jaaguke@my-deja.com: > The descriptions do not give a detailed description, but it seems > that the Elves who are reincarnated are reborn. That is, they have a > second childhood - and second set of parents(unless the original > parents are still around and can have the same child again) It depends on which descriptions you're looking at. As far as I recall, neither LotR nor the published Silmarillion ever give enough details for a firm conclusion to be drawn. However, Tolkien's later essays seem to point quite conclusively to "direct" reincarnation (rebuilding of the body by the "soul" with the help of the Valar) in preference to his earlier notion of rebirth as a child (and near the same family, if possible). In particular, I'd recommend reading the "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" in _Morgoth's Ring_. While it was never published in Tolkien's lifetime, he did apparently make numerous references to it later on, treating it as a valuable reference himself: for me, it comes as close to being "canon" as does any non-published text. The most relevant areas here may be Tolkien's "Commentary" on the main story, and the other notes associated with it that Christopher gives in that chapter. One of the primary arguments given, as an example, is that rebirth "contradicts the fundamental notion that _fea_ [soul] and _hroa_ [body] were each _fitted_ to the other: since _hroar_ have a physical descent, the body of rebirth, having different parents, must be different." This is by no means the only strong argument that pushed Tolkien to choose the mechanism for Elven reincarnation that he did, but again, you'll have to read the "Athrabeth" for the full story. I, at least, was entirely convinced that Tolkien made the right choice. :) Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3jrd5.464$aQ4.43893@read2.inet.fi> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 65 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 964074950 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 20 Jul 2000 01:35:50 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 01:35:50 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 06:35:50 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!triton.skycache.com!128.174.5.49!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23887 Quoth "Morgil" : > > Steuard Jensen kirjoitti viestissä ... [snip] > > "...and dying they are reborn in their children, so > > that their number minishes not, nor grows." > > --"The Music of the Ainur", _The Book of Lost Tales I_; > I wonder why the rebirth-part was taken off in the version that was > put in the Silmarillion(chapter one, last page). I only have Finnish > version and it says something like: " and when they die, they gather > to the Halls of Mandos in Valinor, from where they once returned." > (To be honest, that last sentence sounds little strange. Could some- > body tell, how it goes in the English version?(and what it means?)) Hmm. The passage you're quoting here reads in the English version of the published Silmarillion: "and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return." This gives no real information on the mechanism of that return, of course, which is why we are forced to look elsewhere for the answers. As I said in another post on this subject, the best place to look for Tolkien's thoughts on this issue is _Morgoth's Ring_, in the essay "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth". The quote that I gave above, from the Ainulindale rather than the Silmarillion proper, does not seem to have survived into the published version in any form (not surprising, really, considering the fifty to sixty years that passed between the writing of the Lost Tales and the publication of Silm). > >> Are there any other mentions about reincarnations? > >Lots and lots. :) Look for it the next time you read through Silm., > >and you'll see it all over the place. :) > I hope you´re not exaggerating here. ;) Ok, so perhaps I was overstating things a bit. :) But references to the concept (at least) strike me as being implicit (at least) in a fair number of places... which I don't have time now to double check. :) > An exemple or two would be nice. I did discover some mentions: > -Miriel not returning to her body. > -Feanor not leaving the Halls of Mandos(implicating that others did) > -Finrod walking with his father in Eldamar. These were all examples that I thought of... and I feel like there are others, more or less direct, though again I'm not going to dig for them now. (I've given one other in the quote from Chapter 1 above.) > However, the story of Beren and Luthien seems to suggest that > Luthien was given a choice as a special priviledge, to live again in > Valimar, even though she chose othervice. I can see that possibility in the wording, now that I look at it, but I would guess that it simply meant that she would be permitted to leave Mandos _immediately_ as a special favor, rather than having to wait at least a few years or centuries like most of the Elves who came there. Again, it's a sketchy and indirect reference at best... I'd prefer to go to primary texts, which brings us again to the "Athrabeth". :) Anyway, it's a fascinating topic, which I'm eager to discuss largely because I found the reading so interesting when I finally got _Morgoth's Ring_. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Andrew Durdin" <@> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3jrd5.464$aQ4.43893@read2.inet.fi> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 18:01:30 +1000 Lines: 49 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com Message-ID: <3976b20f$1@casper.southcom.com.au> X-Trace: 20 Jul 2000 08:02:23 GMT, delta.tavultesoft.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.labyrinth.net.au!casper.southcom.com.au!delta.tavultesoft.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23926 Morgil wrote in message news:3jrd5.464$aQ4.43893@read2.inet.fi... > I wonder why the rebirth-part was taken off in the version that was > put in the Silmarillion(chapter one, last page). I only have Finnish > version and it says something like: " and when they die, they gather > to the Halls of Mandos in Valinor, from where they once returned." > (To be honest, that last sentence sounds little strange. Could some- > body tell, how it goes in the English version?(and what it means?)) "...and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return." i.e., they might possibly return to Middle-Earth from the halls of Mandos. > I agree with this, but I figured this ment that their souls never left Ea, > unlike Human souls, but dwelled there in a bodiless form. > However, the story of Beren and Luthien seems to suggest that > Luthien was given a choice as a special priviledge, to live again > in Valimar, even though she chose othervice. Looking at all the references to the halls of Mandos listed in the index, this would be the impression one would get. Indeed, the only reference which seems interpretable that most Elves' 'souls' left the halls is in "The Return of the Noldor" (p. 107), where it is talking about the death of Feanor: "Then he died...and his likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos.". Certainly it would appear from the Silm. that abiding in Valinor was a special choice given to Luthien: "These were the choices that he gave to Luthien: Because of her labours and her sorrow, she should be released from Mandos, and go to Valimar, there to dwell until the world's end among the Valar..." > But I gotta tell you that > I´m still far away from accepting the total reconstruction of the body The published Silmarillion was not a collection of the latest and most definitive texts of the myths; in the foreword Christopher Tolkien writes: "I set myself therefore to work out a single text, selecting and arranging in such a way as seemed to me to produce the most coherent and internally self-consistent narrative". Possibly this is why the references to reincarnation may seem a little confused. (Actually, in a way the later texts were not 'definitive' at all: in Morgoth's Ring, for instance, some fairly late ideas of Tolkien's are presented, which, if carried through to the published Silmarillion, would have caused many major changes to the story as we know it. Andrew ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3jrd5.464$aQ4.43893@read2.inet.fi> <3976b20f$1@casper.southcom.com.au> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Lines: 74 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 13:03:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.62.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.mi.home.com 964098184 24.0.62.34 (Thu, 20 Jul 2000 06:03:04 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 06:03:04 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!feeder.via.net!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.mi.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23939 "Andrew Durdin" <@> wrote in message news:3976b20f$1@casper.southcom.com.au... > > Morgil wrote in message > news:3jrd5.464$aQ4.43893@read2.inet.fi... > > I wonder why the rebirth-part was taken off in the version that was > > put in the Silmarillion(chapter one, last page). I only have Finnish > > version and it says something like: " and when they die, they gather > > to the Halls of Mandos in Valinor, from where they once returned." > > (To be honest, that last sentence sounds little strange. Could some- > > body tell, how it goes in the English version?(and what it means?)) > > "...and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence > they may in time return." > i.e., they might possibly return to Middle-Earth from the halls of Mandos. There is no implication in this quote that they might return to Middle-earth, it only says that the Elves might leave Mandos and return to corporeal life. Since the Valar who have the power to build a body for the released spirit and the Halls of Mandos are both in Aman it follows that the released spirit takes up it new body in Aman. > > > I agree with this, but I figured this ment that their souls never left Ea, > > unlike Human souls, but dwelled there in a bodiless form. > > > However, the story of Beren and Luthien seems to suggest that > > Luthien was given a choice as a special priviledge, to live again > > in Valimar, even though she chose othervice. > > Looking at all the references to the halls of Mandos listed in the index, > this would be the impression one would get. Indeed, the only reference which > seems interpretable that most Elves' 'souls' left the halls is in "The > Return of the Noldor" (p. 107), where it is talking about the death of > Feanor: "Then he died...and his likeness has never again appeared in Arda, > neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos.". Certainly it would appear > from the Silm. that abiding in Valinor was a special choice given to > Luthien: "These were the choices that he gave to Luthien: Because of her > labours and her sorrow, she should be released from Mandos, and go to > Valimar, there to dwell until the world's end among the Valar..." Both choices given to Luthien offered her something unique. The first choice was to dwell in Valimar with the Valar in honor of her unique status as the only offspring of a Vala (in the broad sense) and an Elda. The second choice allowed her as a unique exception to return to Middle-earth with Beren, become mortal and so remain with him forever. > > > But I gotta tell you that > > I´m still far away from accepting the total reconstruction of the body > > The published Silmarillion was not a collection of the latest and most > definitive texts of the myths; in the foreword Christopher Tolkien writes: > "I set myself therefore to work out a single text, selecting and arranging > in such a way as seemed to me to produce the most coherent and internally > self-consistent narrative". Possibly this is why the references to > reincarnation may seem a little confused. (Actually, in a way the later > texts were not 'definitive' at all: in Morgoth's Ring, for instance, some > fairly late ideas of Tolkien's are presented, which, if carried through to > the published Silmarillion, would have caused many major changes to the > story as we know it. True, some ideas in Tolkien's later life would have caused catastrophic changes to the legendarium - the reincarnation of the Elves is NOT one of them. As Steuard pointed out the Reincarnation of the Elves had been a basic element of the Silmarillion since Tolkien began to write the Book of Lost Tales. It was only the mode or mechanism of reincarnation that changed. ###### From: "Andrew Durdin" <@> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8l3lr7$6ks$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 21:07:38 +1000 Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com Message-ID: <39782f31@casper.southcom.com.au> X-Trace: 21 Jul 2000 11:08:33 GMT, delta.tavultesoft.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.labyrinth.net.au!casper.southcom.com.au!delta.tavultesoft.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24006 wrote in message news:8l3lr7$6ks$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > Morgil, > maybe is that re-embodiment of the Elves only take place in just some > special cases , when direct divine intervention is altering the normal > way to the Halls of mandos.Something like (quoting from FAQ): > ..." Tolkien's conception was that a creature's natural lifespan was > intrinsic to its spiritual and biological nature, and that this could > not be altered save by a direct intervention of the Creator. There were > three occasions when this did happen (Luthien, Tuor, Arwen)"... > and we can count two more for Glorfindel and Finrod? No; the "natural lifespan", spiritually *and* biologically, of an elf was until the destruction of Ea (the Universe). Re-embodiment was common, because the sundering of the elves' spirits and bodies was unnatural, and was remedied in most cases of elven 'death'. But the FAQ is not quite correct: there were actually four occasions of this type, the fourth being Earendil. Andrew ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 15:12:27 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 30 Message-ID: <8l9epf$cj6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8l3lr7$6ks$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39782f31@casper.southcom.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-a233.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 964181615 12902 212.205.240.233 (21 Jul 2000 12:13:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 21 Jul 2000 12:13:35 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24010 Andrew Durdin <@> wrote in message news:39782f31@casper.southcom.com.au... > wrote in message news:8l3lr7$6ks$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > Morgil, > > maybe is that re-embodiment of the Elves only take place in just some > > special cases , when direct divine intervention is altering the normal > > way to the Halls of mandos.Something like (quoting from FAQ): > > ..." Tolkien's conception was that a creature's natural lifespan was > > intrinsic to its spiritual and biological nature, and that this could > > not be altered save by a direct intervention of the Creator. There were > > three occasions when this did happen (Luthien, Tuor, Arwen)"... > > and we can count two more for Glorfindel and Finrod? > > No; the "natural lifespan", spiritually *and* biologically, of an elf was > until the destruction of Ea (the Universe). Re-embodiment was common, > because the sundering of the elves' spirits and bodies was unnatural, and > was remedied in most cases of elven 'death'. > But the FAQ is not quite correct: there were actually four occasions of this > type, the fourth being Earendil. If you were to place Earendil, you'd also have to place Elwing and Elrond. The peredhil weren't included in these occasions. (The children of Elrond were pretty much considered to be Eldar, so Arwen's inclusion can be justified perhaps...) Aris Katsaris ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Lines: 40 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 22 Jul 2000 03:55:36 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000721235536.03079.00002297@nso-ct.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24110 An odd sounding idea passed into my head as I read this thread and at first it sounds counterintuitive but bare with me please. The idea of Elves being bound to the world (regardless of reincarnation/rebirth/whatever) sounds parallel to the Jewish concept that Creation is all He wrought, and there ain't no more. "Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust....&c." this seems especially true when juxtaposed against the idea that Men are not bound to the world, that they are guaranteed to live in some way after the end of Eä. The Elves are not really sure of their fate after The End, as someone mentioned in this thread, although I'm not so sure myself if they're unsure or they know difinitively that they won't exist after The End. I have a feeling, but don't know, that more contemporary Jewish thought has made allowances for the possibility of the existence of a life in Heaven after death but before The End, although the tradition of naming a child after a deceased forebear stems from the idea that through another is the only way the _memory_ of the departed will ever continue to exist and that's the best anyone can hope fore in terms of any "living on" after one is dead. This is also one basis for the commandment against adultory, it being an attempt to guarantee as much as possible that a man be assured that he has progeny through which his _name_ may live on. Anyway, I know that there is not a direct correlation between the Jewish concept and the Fate of the Elves, but when each is put next to their counterpart I see things falling in line a bit more. So, the questions which stem from this are: 1. Is this something that Tolkien considered? 2. Regardless of whether he showed signs of this idea entering his thoughts, given his deep convictions re: Christianity, is this something anyone could believe to be a influence on his conception of the varied fates of the Children? 3. Is this too strained a comparison to justify a readers thoughts of applicability? PaulB "...it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succor of those years wherein we are set, uprooting evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till."LotR V:9 ###### From: "Andrew Durdin" <@> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8l3lr7$6ks$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39782f31@casper.southcom.com.au> <8l9epf$cj6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 15:01:17 +1000 Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com Message-ID: <397a7c58$1@casper.southcom.com.au> X-Trace: 23 Jul 2000 05:02:16 GMT, delta.tavultesoft.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.labyrinth.net.au!casper.southcom.com.au!delta.tavultesoft.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24255 Aris Katsaris wrote in message news:8l9epf$cj6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr... > > Andrew Durdin <@> wrote in message news:39782f31@casper.southcom.com.au... > > No; the "natural lifespan", spiritually *and* biologically, of an elf was > > until the destruction of Ea (the Universe). Re-embodiment was common, > > because the sundering of the elves' spirits and bodies was unnatural, and > > was remedied in most cases of elven 'death'. > > But the FAQ is not quite correct: there were actually four occasions of > this > > type, the fourth being Earendil. > > If you were to place Earendil, you'd also have to place Elwing and Elrond. > The peredhil weren't included in these occasions. (The children of > Elrond were pretty much considered to be Eldar, so Arwen's inclusion > can be justified perhaps...) And Elros. The point about Earendil is that he was counted to be a man at first ("Earendil, first of living Men, landed on the immortal shores" - Silm. p.248) and was the first of the peredhil to be given the choice of which kindred he would belong to (although Elwing chose before he did). ###### From: "Andrew Durdin" <@> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3jrd5.464$aQ4.43893@read2.inet.fi> <3976b20f$1@casper.southcom.com.au> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 16:43:49 +1000 Lines: 63 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com Message-ID: <397a945d$1@casper.southcom.com.au> X-Trace: 23 Jul 2000 06:44:45 GMT, delta.tavultesoft.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.labyrinth.net.au!casper.southcom.com.au!delta.tavultesoft.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24254 Dave Lind wrote in message news:cMCd5.45401$fR2.406905@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > > "...and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence > > they may in time return." > > i.e., they might possibly return to Middle-Earth from the halls of Mandos. > > There is no implication in this quote that they might return to > Middle-earth, it only says that the Elves might leave Mandos and return to > corporeal life. Since the Valar who have the power to build a body for the > released spirit and the Halls of Mandos are both in Aman it follows that the > released spirit takes up it new body in Aman. All right, it says that dying, they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor: so they depart from both corporeal life and Middle-Earth; thus when it says they might return from the Halls of Mandos, it could mean return to ME, or return to corporeal life, or just as easily: both. As it is not clear which interpretation is the one Tolkien meant this sentence to have, I won't argue about it. > Both choices given to Luthien offered her something unique. The first choice > was to dwell in Valimar with the Valar in honor of her unique status as the > only offspring of a Vala (in the broad sense) and an Elda. Many other elves stayed in Valimar, so why would it be a 'unique' gift to Luthien? > > The published Silmarillion was not a collection of the latest and most > > definitive texts of the myths; in the foreword Christopher Tolkien writes: > > "I set myself therefore to work out a single text, selecting and arranging > > in such a way as seemed to me to produce the most coherent and internally > > self-consistent narrative". Possibly this is why the references to > > reincarnation may seem a little confused. (Actually, in a way the later > > texts were not 'definitive' at all: in Morgoth's Ring, for instance, some > > fairly late ideas of Tolkien's are presented, which, if carried through to > > the published Silmarillion, would have caused many major changes to the > > story as we know it. > > True, some ideas in Tolkien's later life would have caused catastrophic > changes to the legendarium - the reincarnation of the Elves is NOT one of > them. As Steuard pointed out the Reincarnation of the Elves had been a basic > element of the Silmarillion since Tolkien began to write the Book of Lost > Tales. It was only the mode or mechanism of reincarnation that changed. I agree that the reincarnation of the elves is one of the main elements of the Quenta Silmarillion; I was trying to point out that in the course of CJRT's editing of The Silmarillion some of the references to reincarnation _may have been_ confused/lost. Andrew ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3jrd5.464$aQ4.43893@read2.inet.fi> <3976b20f$1@casper.southcom.com.au> <397a945d$1@casper.southcom.com.au> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Lines: 59 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: <%HAe5.48375$fR2.437267@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com> Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 11:31:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.62.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.mi.home.com 964351867 24.0.62.34 (Sun, 23 Jul 2000 04:31:07 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 04:31:07 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.mi.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24260 "Andrew Durdin" <@> wrote in message news:397a945d$1@casper.southcom.com.au... > > Dave Lind wrote in message > news:cMCd5.45401$fR2.406905@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > > > "...and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, > whence > > > they may in time return." > > > i.e., they might possibly return to Middle-Earth from the halls of > Mandos. > > > > There is no implication in this quote that they might return to > > Middle-earth, it only says that the Elves might leave Mandos and return to > > corporeal life. Since the Valar who have the power to build a body for the > > released spirit and the Halls of Mandos are both in Aman it follows that > the > > released spirit takes up it new body in Aman. > > All right, it says that dying, they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in > Valinor: so they depart from both corporeal life and Middle-Earth; thus when > it says they might return from the Halls of Mandos, it could mean return to > ME, or return to corporeal life, or just as easily: both. > As it is not clear which interpretation is the one Tolkien meant this > sentence to have, I won't argue about it. At the time the sentence was written it actually had the meaning you have ascribed to it above: They would be reincarnated where ever their (new) parents dwelt. But JRRT rejected rebirth as the mode of Elvish reincarnation so the sentence needs to be interpreted in the new theory. In 2 or 3 separate writings in the HoME series Tolkien specifically rejects rebirth and states that the Elves are "re-housed" in Aman after their purgatorial stay in Mandos is over. > > > Both choices given to Luthien offered her something unique. The first > choice > > was to dwell in Valimar with the Valar in honor of her unique status as > the > > only offspring of a Vala (in the broad sense) and an Elda. > > Many other elves stayed in Valimar, so why would it be a 'unique' gift to > Luthien? Name one Elf whose mailing address was in Valimar. The Noldor lived in Tirion (except for Feanor & company during his banishment), the Teleri lived in Alqualonde, and the Vanyar lived on the western slopes of Oiolosse. Valimar was the dwelling of the Valar and Maiar, not of the Elves. But the point of the first choice was not where she would dwell. Because she was half-maia she was being given offered the opportunity to BE a Maia, just as the Half-elven were given the opportunity to become Elves. ###### Message-ID: <397B06F3.60F3D8C1@gte.net> From: Chris Hoelscher X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8l3lr7$6ks$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39782f31@casper.southcom.com.au> <8l9epf$cj6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <397a7c58$1@casper.southcom.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 X-Trace: /w/U24RO1sEVmHEKItX7FZtP80rGBD1BjeBEI4cbok9GYviJOrusVlH6a51Hx8OSLsXa4EmVuFeY!E9AQ8zF0R3AwB9olvrpXlvYZePgxp7O8C2wkUUJcnuRnFLI1Fkeh6L3b9Wk= X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 14:54:28 GMT Distribution: world Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 14:54:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!panix!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!dfiatx1-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24265 here's a question that occurred to me - if both ELROND and ELROS were given the choice to which race they would be accounted, and to ELROND's children were granted the same choice (that had to be made at the time of ELROND's departure), then why was the same choice not given to the child(ren) of ELROS? also, was Frodo granted visitation rights (no where was it stated that he was given elfen immortality, was there?) to VALINOR because a) of his valor? b) because he was a living ring-bearer (the dead ones apparently dont get to valinor other than perhaps MANDOS), or c) because Arwen conferred her "right" to him? (she had the right to choose for herself, but did she have the right, having made HER decision, to give her "pass to valinor" to Frodo? Chris Hoelscher ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 20:43:23 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8lfau0$kqi$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8l3lr7$6ks$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39782f31@casper.southcom.com.au> <8l9epf$cj6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <397a7c58$1@casper.southcom.com.au> <397B06F3.60F3D8C1@gte.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p156.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 964374272 21330 212.205.253.156 (23 Jul 2000 17:44:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jul 2000 17:44:32 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!uninett.no!newsfeed1.enitel.no!masternews.telia.net!news-sto.telia.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24230 Chris Hoelscher wrote in message news:397B06F3.60F3D8C1@gte.net... > here's a question that occurred to me - if both ELROND and ELROS were > given the choice to which race they would be accounted, and to ELROND's > children were granted the same choice (that had to be made at the time > of ELROND's departure), then why was the same choice not given to the > child(ren) of ELROS? Perhaps it's all about destiny. Perhaps the Valar knew that one of his children's choice would be important in the unfolding of the song. Or perhaps they didn't want to create an immortal sub-race inside Numenor. Perhaps. > also, was Frodo granted visitation rights (no where was it stated that > he was given elfen immortality, was there?) to VALINOR because a) of his > valor? b) because he was a living ring-bearer (the dead ones apparently > dont get to valinor other than perhaps MANDOS), or c) because Arwen > conferred her "right" to him? (she had the right to choose for herself, > but did she have the right, having made HER decision, to give her "pass > to valinor" to Frodo? It seems to be something between (b) and (c). Both of them perhaps. Aris Katsaris ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Date: 23 Jul 2000 22:43:41 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 53 Message-ID: <6u8zush91e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8l3lr7$6ks$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39782f31@casper.southcom.com.au> <8l9epf$cj6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <397a7c58$1@casper.southcom.com.au> <397B06F3.60F3D8C1@gte.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 964385021 1129 10.0.3.2 (23 Jul 2000 20:43:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jul 2000 20:43:41 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24273 Chris Hoelscher writes: > here's a question that occurred to me - if both ELROND and ELROS were > given the choice to which race they would be accounted, and to ELROND's > children were granted the same choice (that had to be made at the time > of ELROND's departure), then why was the same choice not given to the > child(ren) of ELROS? Because it was not needed for the story? :-) Nice asymmetry you found there, I would assume Tolkien missed it, when he retrofitted Elros into the story, after needing Elrond for The Hobbit (in the pre-Hobbit Silmarillion Elrond did Elros part, becoming king of Numenor, according to HoME V). > also, was Frodo granted visitation rights (no where was it stated that > he was given elfen immortality, was there?) to VALINOR because a) of his > valor? Other valiant non-immortals, such as Beren or Tuor, were not given it. Turin was given in some versions the right to remain in Mandos until the end of time and then be released to fight Morgoth. > b) because he was a living ring-bearer (the dead ones apparently > dont get to valinor other than perhaps MANDOS), Valinor (land where the Valr live) ist not Aman (the western continent). Mandos is in Aman, but not in Valinor (which is one part of Aman). > or c) because Arwen > conferred her "right" to him? She may have given it, but she reclaimed it (she made use of it). > (she had the right to choose for herself, > but did she have the right, having made HER decision, to give her "pass > to valinor" to Frodo? Most likely not. The entire issue of Frodo/Sam/Gimli going to Aman is in contradiction to the previously stated "only immortals" policy for which Al-Pharazon and Numenor was sunk. IIRC there is something in LoTR about doubts they will be recieved there. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 00:22:01 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 37 Message-ID: <8lfnns$qcm$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8l3lr7$6ks$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39782f31@casper.southcom.com.au> <8l9epf$cj6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <397a7c58$1@casper.southcom.com.au> <397B06F3.60F3D8C1@gte.net> <6u8zush91e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p137.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 964387388 27030 212.205.253.137 (23 Jul 2000 21:23:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 23 Jul 2000 21:23:08 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24324 Neil Franklin wrote in message news:6u8zush91e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch... > > > b) because he was a living ring-bearer (the dead ones apparently > > dont get to valinor other than perhaps MANDOS), > > Valinor (land where the Valr live) ist not Aman (the western > continent). Mandos is in Aman, but not in Valinor (which is one part > of Aman). I think you are wrong. Aman is the entire continent. Valinor is the part of the continent which is behind the Pelori mountains. I think that Mandos *is* in Valinor, near the northwestest part of it I believe. > > or c) because Arwen > > conferred her "right" to him? > > She may have given it, but she reclaimed it (she made use of it). Heh? > > (she had the right to choose for herself, > > but did she have the right, having made HER decision, to give her "pass > > to valinor" to Frodo? > > Most likely not. The entire issue of Frodo/Sam/Gimli going to Aman is > in contradiction to the previously stated "only immortals" policy for > which Al-Pharazon and Numenor was sunk. "Rules may be strict, yet they are the means, not the ends of government. There are exceptions; for there is that which governs and is above the rules." --The Lost Road Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Mike \(AKA Eppie\)" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8l3lr7$6ks$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39782f31@casper.southcom.com.au> <8l9epf$cj6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <397a7c58$1@casper.southcom.com.au> <397B06F3.60F3D8C1@gte.net> <6u8zush91e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8lfnns$qcm$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Lines: 12 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <4DMe5.1072$W03.42743@typhoon1.ba-dsg.net> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 01:05:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.151.8.4 X-Complaints-To: newsadmin@bellatlantic.net X-Trace: typhoon1.ba-dsg.net 964400704 141.151.8.4 (Sun, 23 Jul 2000 21:05:04 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 21:05:04 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!199.45.45.8!cyclone1.ba-dsg.net!typhoon1.ba-dsg.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24330 What about the the bodies of elves who were buried - for example, those who are buried in the Mound of the Slain? Or Fingon, buried in a cairn of rocks on a mountain-side? I'll presume they get brand-new bodies. But ... do they look exactly like the old bodies? Or is there a possibility that Fingon could be re-housed as a normal dark-haired Noldorian Elf, instead of a blond, Vanyarian-Noldorian? (hyphenated Elves! :-) ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8l3lr7$6ks$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39782f31@casper.southcom.com.au> <8l9epf$cj6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <397a7c58$1@casper.southcom.com.au> <397B06F3.60F3D8C1@gte.net> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: <2kNe5.48891$fR2.444617@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com> Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 01:53:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.62.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.mi.home.com 964403582 24.0.62.34 (Sun, 23 Jul 2000 18:53:02 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 18:53:02 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.mi.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24343 "Chris Hoelscher" wrote in message news:397B06F3.60F3D8C1@gte.net... > here's a question that occurred to me - if both ELROND and ELROS were > given the choice to which race they would be accounted, and to ELROND's > children were granted the same choice (that had to be made at the time > of ELROND's departure), then why was the same choice not given to the > child(ren) of ELROS? Elrond chose to be an Elf, and he married an Elf. With renewed Elvish blood his children were also alowed to chose. Elros chose to be Human and he married a Human woman. His children were therefore Human, there was no choice to make. Dave ###### From: "Andrew Durdin" <@> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000721235536.03079.00002297@nso-ct.aol.com> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:52:38 +1000 Lines: 46 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com Message-ID: <397c03db$1@casper.southcom.com.au> X-Trace: 24 Jul 2000 08:52:43 GMT, delta.tavultesoft.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.internex.net.au!news.labyrinth.net.au!casper.southcom.com.au!delta.tavultesoft.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24326 PaulB wrote in message news:20000721235536.03079.00002297@nso-ct.aol.com... > An odd sounding idea passed into my head as I read this thread and at > first it sounds counterintuitive but bare with me please. > > The idea of Elves being bound to the world (regardless of > reincarnation/rebirth/whatever) sounds parallel to the Jewish concept that > Creation is all He wrought, and there ain't no more. Some Jews may have believed this; many certainly believed in a spiritual afterlife, however. > The Elves are not really sure of their fate after The > End, as someone mentioned in this thread, although I'm not so sure myself if > they're unsure or they know difinitively that they won't exist after The End. Somewhere (I forget where, unfortunately) it's written that as far as they (and the Valar) knew, their whole beings, fea (~soul) and hroa (body) were bound in the same time as the world, and would cease to exist at 'The End'. [Just found the book - What I was thinking of was some passages in the Athrabeth in MR; I'll quote the relevant parts -- they say it better than I can:] [Finrod said:] "For ever as we spoke of death being a division of the united, I thought in my heart of a death that is not so: but the ending together of both. For that is what lies before us, so far as our reason could see: the completion of Arda and its end, and therefore also of us children of Arda; the end when all the long lives of the Elves shall be wholly in the past." ... "But there is another [kind of hope] which is founded deeper. Estel we call it, that is 'trust'. It is not defeated by the ways of the world, for it does not come from experience, but from our nature and first being. If we are indeed the Eruhin, the Children of the One, then He will not suffer Himself to be deprived of his own, not by any Enemy, not even by ourselves. This is the last foundation of Estel, which we keep even when we contemplate the End: of all His designs the issue must be for His Children's joy." If you haven't read the Athrabeth yet, I would recommend it: it is extremely interesting. Andrew ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 14:06:21 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 32 Message-ID: <8lh81g$dbj$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8l3lr7$6ks$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39782f31@casper.southcom.com.au> <8l9epf$cj6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <397a7c58$1@casper.southcom.com.au> <397B06F3.60F3D8C1@gte.net> <6u8zush91e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8lfnns$qcm$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <4DMe5.1072$W03.42743@typhoon1.ba-dsg.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p140.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 964436848 13683 212.205.253.140 (24 Jul 2000 11:07:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Jul 2000 11:07:28 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!uninett.no!news.ost.eltele.no!newsfeed1.enitel.no!masternews.telia.net!news-sto.telia.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24298 Mike (AKA Eppie) wrote in message news:4DMe5.1072$W03.42743@typhoon1.ba-dsg.net... > What about the the bodies of elves who were buried - for example, those who > are buried in the Mound of the Slain? Or Fingon, buried in a cairn of rocks > on a mountain-side? Fingolfin, btw, not Fingon. > I'll presume they get brand-new bodies. But ... do they look exactly like > the old bodies? Or is there a possibility that Fingon could be re-housed as > a normal dark-haired Noldorian Elf, instead of a blond, Vanyarian-Noldorian? First of all, *all* the slain elves get new bodies, rergardless of whether they were buried, burned or otherwise. (A sole exception to this would be Miriel - her own body was perfectly preserved - therefore in one of the texts Tolkien has her simply return to it) And the new body is precisely the same as the one that was destroyed. The spirit, (the "fea") keeps inside it a perfect memory of the body (the "hroa"). With the help of the Valar the fea can reconstruct the hroa as it was. Aris Katsaris ###### From: creole@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:44:04 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <8lha63$fsp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20000721235536.03079.00002297@nso-ct.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.114.47.50 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Jul 24 11:44:04 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 web-accelerator.actcom.co.il:83 (Squid/2.2.STABLE5), 1.0 x57.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 192.115.22.46, 192.114.47.50 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDcreole Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24292 PaulB wrote: > The idea of Elves being bound to the world (regardless of > reincarnation/rebirth/whatever) sounds parallel to the Jewish concept that > Creation is all He wrought, and there ain't no more. > the tradition of naming a child after > a deceased forebear stems from the idea that through another is the only way > the _memory_ of the departed will ever continue to exist and that's the best > anyone can hope fore in terms of any "living on" after one is dead. I try to avoid religious threads, as they never solve anything anyway, but... may I ask what source you are using for this information? One of the most basic tenets of Jewish faith is that this world is merely a corridor to the World to Come. Naming a child in memory of the deceased is done to be a comfort for the family (in seeing the name perpetuated) and as a merit for the deceased's soul -- an ongoing merit, since the soul still exists and always will. Creation is indeed what He wrought, but the World to Come is also part of it. :) Creole, who does not intend to debate this further on the ng, but is willing to discuss it privately via email Creole24@hotmail.com Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: tar_elenion@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 04:24:14 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <8lj4pc$rvj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8l3lr7$6ks$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39782f31@casper.southcom.com.au> <8l9epf$cj6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <397a7c58$1@casper.southcom.com.au> <397B06F3.60F3D8C1@gte.net> <6u8zush91e.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8lfnns$qcm$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <4DMe5.1072$W03.42743@typhoon1.ba-dsg.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.255.197 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Jul 25 04:24:14 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 ptlum1.sfba.home.com[1809EFD3] (Traffic-Server/3.0.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cCMi p s ]), 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.255.197 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24373 In article <4DMe5.1072$W03.42743@typhoon1.ba-dsg.net>, "Mike \(AKA Eppie\)" wrote: > What about the the bodies of elves who were buried - for example, those who > are buried in the Mound of the Slain? Or Fingon, buried in a cairn of rocks > on a mountain-side? > > I'll presume they get brand-new bodies. But ... do they look exactly like > the old bodies? Or is there a possibility that Fingon could be re- housed as > a normal dark-haired Noldorian Elf, instead of a blond, Vanyarian- Noldorian? > Fingon was a 'normal' dark-haired Noldo (with some Vanyarin blood). Read the Shibboleth of Feanor for descriptions. Tar-Elenion Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "Andrew Durdin" <@> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3jrd5.464$aQ4.43893@read2.inet.fi> <3976b20f$1@casper.southcom.com.au> <397a945d$1@casper.southcom.com.au> <%HAe5.48375$fR2.437267@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 22:53:46 +1000 Lines: 48 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com Message-ID: <397d8e0a@casper.southcom.com.au> X-Trace: 25 Jul 2000 12:54:34 GMT, delta.tavultesoft.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.labyrinth.net.au!casper.southcom.com.au!delta.tavultesoft.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24395 Dave Lind wrote in message news:%HAe5.48375$fR2.437267@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > > All right, it says that dying, they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in > > Valinor: so they depart from both corporeal life and Middle-Earth; thus > when > > it says they might return from the Halls of Mandos, it could mean return > to > > ME, or return to corporeal life, or just as easily: both. > > As it is not clear which interpretation is the one Tolkien meant this > > sentence to have, I won't argue about it. > > At the time the sentence was written it actually had the meaning you have > ascribed to it above: They would be reincarnated where ever their (new) > parents dwelt. But JRRT rejected rebirth as the mode of Elvish reincarnation > so the sentence needs to be interpreted in the new theory. In 2 or 3 > separate writings in the HoME series Tolkien specifically rejects rebirth > and states that the Elves are "re-housed" in Aman after their purgatorial > stay in Mandos is over. But that doesn't preclude a possible eventual return to Middle Earth. > Name one Elf whose mailing address was in Valimar. The Noldor lived in > Tirion (except for Feanor & company during his banishment), the Teleri lived > in Alqualonde, and the Vanyar lived on the western slopes of Oiolosse. > Valimar was the dwelling of the Valar and Maiar, not of the Elves. Whoops, I slipped up there. I was confusing Valimar with Valinor; Just checking the Silm appendix, I find that Valimar was the city of the Valar in Valinor, so you were right. Interestingly, the same entry says that in Galadriel's Lament, Valimar is made equivalent with Valinor--so I was partly right after all ;-) > But the > point of the first choice was not where she would dwell. Because she was > half-maia she was being given offered the opportunity to BE a Maia, just as > the Half-elven were given the opportunity to become Elves. That's certainly an interpretation I've never heard before; and I can't see anything to support it. Andrew ###### From: "lurker@home" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8l3lr7$6ks$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39782f31@casper.southcom.com.au> <8l9epf$cj6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <397a7c58$1@casper.southcom.com.au> <397B06F3.60F3D8C1@gte.net> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Lines: 18 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Message-ID: <8Csf5.32953$LE.139184@typhoon.we.rr.com> Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 03:07:48 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.30.174.190 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.we.rr.com 964580868 24.30.174.190 (Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:07:48 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:07:48 PDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!easynews!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!lsnws01.we.mediaone.net!typhoon.we.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24534 Chris Hoelscher wrote in message <397B06F3.60F3D8C1@gte.net>... [snip] > >also, was Frodo granted visitation rights (no where was it stated that >he was given elfen immortality, was there?) to VALINOR because a) of his >valor? b) because he was a living ring-bearer (the dead ones apparently >dont get to valinor other than perhaps MANDOS), or c) because Arwen >conferred her "right" to him? (she had the right to choose for herself, >but did she have the right, having made HER decision, to give her "pass >to valinor" to Frodo? > Yes and no. At the end of ROTK it's said that he will be welcome to remain there until all his hurts are healed. That may be a metaphor, and it may not. ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3jrd5.464$aQ4.43893@read2.inet.fi> <3976b20f$1@casper.southcom.com.au> <397a945d$1@casper.southcom.com.au> <%HAe5.48375$fR2.437267@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com> <397d8e0a@casper.southcom.com.au> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Lines: 84 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 12:51:42 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.62.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.mi.home.com 964615902 24.0.62.34 (Wed, 26 Jul 2000 05:51:42 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 05:51:42 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.via.net!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.mi.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24542 "Andrew Durdin" <@> wrote in message news:397d8e0a@casper.southcom.com.au... > > Dave Lind wrote in message > news:%HAe5.48375$fR2.437267@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > > > All right, it says that dying, they are gathered to the halls of Mandos > in > > > Valinor: so they depart from both corporeal life and Middle-Earth; thus > > when > > > it says they might return from the Halls of Mandos, it could mean return > > to > > > ME, or return to corporeal life, or just as easily: both. > > > As it is not clear which interpretation is the one Tolkien meant this > > > sentence to have, I won't argue about it. > > > > At the time the sentence was written it actually had the meaning you have > > ascribed to it above: They would be reincarnated where ever their (new) > > parents dwelt. But JRRT rejected rebirth as the mode of Elvish > reincarnation > > so the sentence needs to be interpreted in the new theory. In 2 or 3 > > separate writings in the HoME series Tolkien specifically rejects rebirth > > and states that the Elves are "re-housed" in Aman after their purgatorial > > stay in Mandos is over. > > But that doesn't preclude a possible eventual return to Middle Earth. Tolkien wrote: They were given the choice to ... be rehoused in the same form and shape as they had had. Normally they must nontheless remain in Aman. Therefore, if they dwelt in Middle-earth, their bereavement of friends and kin, and the bereavement of these was not amended. Morgoth's Ring (pg. 339, US edition) This text does not absolutely preclude a return to Middle-earth but it says that a return was only permitted for special circumstances, such as the return of Beren and Luthien in the First age (which is the only known example of a return in all of the First Age). The only other example is Glorfindel whose return is also portrayed as a special case. > > > But the > > point of the first choice was not where she would dwell. Because she was > > half-maia she was being given offered the opportunity to BE a Maia, just > as > > the Half-elven were given the opportunity to become Elves. > > That's certainly an interpretation I've never heard before; and I can't see > anything to support it. In The Silmarillion the penultimate paragraph in Chapter 19 These were the choices that he gave to Luthien. She, because she was the daughter of Melian, and because of her labours and her sorrow, should be released from Mandos, and go to Valimar, there to dwell until the world's end among the Valar, forgetting all griefs that her life had known.... When this chapter was written in the 1930s the mode of Elvish reincarnation was rebirth. The above quote does not say that Luthien should be released from Mandos, and reborn as an infant in the usual Elvish manner. On the contrary, it says that Luthien, because she was the daughter of Melian, should forgo Elvish rebirth and go directly to Valimar. I agree this is rather thin evidence but to me it makes sense. Which ever choice she made she would drastically change her destiny. Dave ###### From: "Andrew Durdin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3jrd5.464$aQ4.43893@read2.inet.fi> <3976b20f$1@casper.southcom.com.au> <397a945d$1@casper.southcom.com.au> <%HAe5.48375$fR2.437267@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com> <397d8e0a@casper.southcom.com.au> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 13:35:06 +1000 Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: delta.tavultesoft.com Message-ID: <397fadfa@casper.southcom.com.au> X-Trace: 27 Jul 2000 03:35:22 GMT, delta.tavultesoft.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!Quza.UK.peer!nntp.gblx.net!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.gblx.net!news-out.nibble.net!news-in.nibble.net!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.labyrinth.net.au!casper.southcom.com.au!delta.tavultesoft.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:24634 Dave Lind wrote in message news:y9Bf5.51680$fR2.471698@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > > "Andrew Durdin" <@> wrote in message news:397d8e0a@casper.southcom.com.au... > > But that doesn't preclude a possible eventual return to Middle Earth. > > Tolkien wrote: > > They were given the choice to ... be rehoused > in the same form and shape as they had had. > Normally they must nontheless remain in Aman. > Therefore, if they dwelt in Middle-earth, their > bereavement of friends and kin, and the > bereavement of these was not amended. > Morgoth's Ring (pg. 339, US edition) > > This text does not absolutely preclude a return to Middle-earth but it says > that a return was only permitted for special circumstances, such as the > return of Beren and Luthien in the First age (which is the only known > example of a return in all of the First Age). > > The only other example is Glorfindel whose return is also portrayed as a > special case. Okay, you're right. I guess I should reread MR. Andrew ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8l1i2l$ii7$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8l3lr7$6ks$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39782f31@casper.southcom.com.au> <8l9epf$cj6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <397a7c58$1@casper.southcom.com.au> <397B06F3.60F3D8C1@gte.net> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves Lines: 77 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 23:58:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.22.201 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 965260681 12.79.22.201 (Wed, 02 Aug 2000 23:58:01 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 23:58:01 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.20!wnmasters3!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25105 "Chris Hoelscher" wrote in message news:397B06F3.60F3D8C1@gte.net... > here's a question that occurred to me - if both ELROND and ELROS > were given the choice to which race they would be accounted, and > to ELROND's children were granted the same choice (that had to be > made at the time of ELROND's departure), then why was the same > choice not given to the child(ren) of ELROS? The reasoning seems to be that the 'gift of Man' is not something which can be taken away... such that anyone who had some significant human ancestry would have a claim to it. It might be argued that 'gift of elven longevity' ought to have received like treatment, but apparently it did not. > also, was Frodo granted visitation rights (no where was it stated > that he was given elfen immortality, was there?) No, in fact Tolkien states the opposite a couple of times... that Frodo remained mortal and died in the West. > to VALINOR because a) of his valor? b) because he was a living > ring-bearer (the dead ones apparently dont get to valinor other > than perhaps MANDOS), or c) because Arwen conferred her "right" > to him? (she had the right to choose for herself, but did she > have the right, having made HER decision, to give her "pass > to valinor" to Frodo? Tolkien's statements on this are somewhat contradictory; "...and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dward, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel." Letters #154 "Arwen was the first to observe the signs, and gave him her jewel for comfort, and thought of a way of healing him.* ... *It is not made explicit how she could arrange this. She could not of course just transfer her ticket on the boat like that! For any except those of Elvish race 'sailing West' was not permitted, and any exception required 'authority', and she was not in direct communication with the Valar, especially not since her choice to become 'mortal'. What is meant is that it was Arwen who first thought of sending Frodo into the West, and put in a plea for him to Gandalf (direct or through Galadriel, or both), and she used her own renunciation of the right to go West as an argument. Her renunciation and suffering were related to and enmeshed with Frodo's: both were parts of a plan for the regeneration of the state of Men. Her prayer might therefore be specially effective, and her plan have a certain equity of exchange. No doubt it was Gandalf who was the authority that accepted her plea. ... Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him - if that could be done, before he died. ... Bilbo went too. No doubt as a completion of the plan due to Gandalf himself. ... His companionship was really necessary for Frodo's sake - it is difficult to imagine a hobbit, even one who had been through Frodo's experiences, being really happy even in an earthly paradise without a companion of his own kind ... But he [Bilbo] also needed and deserved the favour on his own account. He bore still the mark of the Ring that needed to be finally erased ... It is clear, of course, that the plan had actually been made and concerted (by Arwen, Gandalf and others) before Arwen spoke." Letters #246 "Hence she [Galadriel] concludes her lament with a wish or prayer that Frodo may as a special grace be granted a purgatorial (but not penal) sojourn in Eressea, the Solitary Isle in sight of Aman, though for her the way is closed. ... Her prayer was granted - but also her personal ban was lifted..." Letters #298 - footnote ###### From: "Morgil" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Lines: 71 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 16:56:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.213.244.28 X-Trace: read2.inet.fi 965753805 212.213.244.28 (Tue, 08 Aug 2000 19:56:45 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 19:56:45 EET DST Organization: Sonera corp Internet services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!nntp.inet.fi!central.inet.fi!inet.fi!read2.inet.fi.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25339 Hi Steuard! Welcome back from your Honeymoon.(You are back aren´t you?) I hope you had a good time, both of you, and hopefully you accomplished more then just reading of "Harry Potter". (Very worrying... ;-) ) I´ve been holding back this thread for you, because you seemed to be interested in this topic. Andrew Durdin <@> kirjoitti viestissä <3976b20f$1@casper.southcom.com.au>... > >Morgil wrote in message >news:3jrd5.464$aQ4.43893@read2.inet.fi... >> I wonder why the rebirth-part was taken off in the version that was >> put in the Silmarillion(chapter one, last page). I only have Finnish >> version and it says something like: " and when they die, they gather >> to the Halls of Mandos in Valinor, from where they once returned." >> (To be honest, that last sentence sounds little strange. Could some- >> body tell, how it goes in the English version?(and what it means?)) > >"...and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence >they may in time return." >i.e., they might possibly return to Middle-Earth from the halls of Mandos. > Great! Just great! This whole confusion because of a tiny translation error. I suppose the Finnish translator didn´t comprehend the reincarnation thing either... OK. An update on my Personal View of Arda: Most Elves Reincarnate after a period in Mandos, except guys like Feanor. Sigh! This brings on only about dozen of new questions... (I guess I really should get that "Morgoth´s Ring"-book from somewhere. Hey! Is there an E-text of it somewhere? ) Part One. (1) Were the reincarnated Elves somehow different from ordinary ones? (2) (Except Glorfindel possibly) Is there any mention of a Reincarnated Elf actually doing anything meaningful? (3) Could it be possible, that the Reincarnated Elves were somehow more "spiritual" beings, even though they had a physical appearance too? Part Two (4) What about the Avari? Did they too reincarnate in the West? (5) Was there a bunch of reincarnated Avari walking around Valinor during the Age of Trees? What was their "social status"? (6) When did the first Elven deaths occur? And first reincarnations? (7) Was it originally purposed that Elves would live in Middle-Earth, and only after dying(in a course of thousands of centuries) they would be moved to Undying Lands, but Valar messed this up by inviting them there in forehand? Whew! I think I´ll save the rest for next week. At least now you can see why the whole thing puzzles me so. :-) Anyway once again, welcome back Steuard. Things have really gone downhill in your absence. Just take a look at the "Peace Anniversary" -thread. (Horrible Flame War going on...) Morgil (I think he bought it...Shhhh.) ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Lines: 56 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 08 Aug 2000 17:20:37 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000808132037.20603.00001465@nso-fz.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!xfer13.netnews.com!xfe11.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25357 In article , "Morgil" writes: >(1) Were the reincarnated Elves somehow different from ordinary ones? I don't think reincarnarnation in and of itself provides any benefits or shortfalls - other than getting a new body of course. > >(2) (Except Glorfindel possibly) Is there any mention of a Reincarnated Elf > actually doing anything meaningful? Finrod walked around with his father > >(3) Could it be possible, that the Reincarnated Elves were somehow more > "spiritual" beings, even though they had a physical appearance too? Well, Gandalf attributed Glorfindel's increased spiritual power to his coming from Aman, not his being reincarnated. > >Part Two >(4) What about the Avari? Did they too reincarnate in the West? That probably depends on one's opinion whether live Avari could pass over the Sea. There's conflicting writing on this. If Avari could not take the Straight Path then I doubt they could be reincarnated. > >(5) Was there a bunch of reincarnated Avari walking around Valinor during > the Age of Trees? What was their "social status"? Apparently not. The only statement is that there were a lot of Avari in Mandos and they largely kept to themselves. > >(6) When did the first Elven deaths occur? And first reincarnations? The first deaths occurred at Cuivienen. Finrod, Glorfindel and Miriel are the first we're told about but that doesn't mean they were the first. > >(7) Was it originally purposed that Elves would live in Middle-Earth, and > only after dying(in a course of thousands of centuries) they would be > moved to Undying Lands, but Valar messed this up by inviting them > there in forehand? That's always puzzled me. The only reason the Elves were called to Valinor was that Melkor had made Middle-earth dangerous. Obviously then, Elves were originally intended to reside in Middle-earth, not Aman. There's a text that describes an exchange between Manwe and Eru in which Eru pretty much tells Manwe that he and the Valar made a mistake by abandoning Middle-earth to Melkor and calling the Elves to Aman. Russ ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000808132037.20603.00001465@nso-fz.aol.com> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Lines: 13 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 18:43:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.19 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: news.bahnhof.se 965760200 195.178.166.19 (Tue, 08 Aug 2000 20:43:20 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 20:43:20 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news.algonet.se!algonet!nntp.se.dataphone.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!news.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25401 Russ wrote: > >(6) When did the first Elven deaths occur? And first reincarnations? > The first deaths occurred at Cuivienen. Finrod, Glorfindel and Miriel are > the first we're told about but that doesn't mean they were the first. Well, the first ones we hear about is Miriel and Finwe, Feanors parents. Findrod and Glorfindel were much later in comparison. /Jonas ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 08 Aug 2000 18:49:33 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000808144933.20603.00001468@nso-fz.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25413 In article , "Jonas Thorell" writes: >> >(6) When did the first Elven deaths occur? And first reincarnations? > >> The first deaths occurred at Cuivienen. Finrod, Glorfindel and Miriel are >> the first we're told about but that doesn't mean they were the first. > >Well, the first ones we hear about is Miriel and Finwe, Feanors parents. >Findrod and Glorfindel were much later in comparison. With respect to Finrod, Glorfindel and Miriel, I was referring to the first reincarnations. I see that I wasn't clear in that regard. I don't think it's ever precisely said when they were reincarnated. Russ ###### From: aragornnc@aol.com (AragornNC) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Lines: 38 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 08 Aug 2000 19:31:27 GMT References: <20000808144933.20603.00001468@nso-fz.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000808153127.00323.00000123@ng-ch1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25404 >(6) When did the first Elven deaths occur? And first reincarnations? Actually, I think that the term reincarnations might be one of the problems with understanding what happened. Considering that the nature of life and death for elves is profoundly different from that of men, the term reincarnation as used by men cannot adequately describe the process of elves. Possibly the concept of a resurrection would be more accurate. IMHO a reincarnation deals with a transmigration of the soul into another "host body," without the express personality or memories of the deceased person, effectually becoming a different person. Whereas a resurrection is the same person given life in the world of the living after his death. Miriel was the first of the Eldar to die, giving birth to Feanor; but the first slaying of an elf was when Melkor slew Finwe after the defilement of the Trees. As for resurrections of elves, I believe that Glorfindel was the first. Mandos was known for his closedness with his counsel and his understanding of the mind of Eru. Possibly he was the only Valar -- or Eldar -- to comprehend the purpose that death had for both elves and men. So he would be able to discern the necessity for a resurrection of specific elves for their purpose/fate Eru had meant when he orchestrated the music of the Ainur. However, I have a hard time believing that all elves can be resurrected only after a certain time in the Halls of Mandos. That to me seems like the Halls of Mandos is more of an incarceration. There is no reason to believe that death to either elves or men was meant to be a punishment, actually quite the oppposite. But that does not mean that at the end of the world, the elves in the Halls of Mandos will all be resurrected and aide the Ainur in the reshaping of the world. More than my 2 cents, Wade W Murphy Vail, CO -"Inconceivable!" -"You keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 23:03:07 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 74 Message-ID: <8mpp4e$ai4$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <20000808144933.20603.00001468@nso-fz.aol.com> <20000808153127.00323.00000123@ng-ch1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o076.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 965765070 10820 212.205.252.76 (8 Aug 2000 20:04:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Aug 2000 20:04:30 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25403 AragornNC wrote in message news:20000808153127.00323.00000123@ng-ch1.aol.com... > >(6) When did the first Elven deaths occur? And first reincarnations? > > Actually, I think that the term reincarnations might be one of the problems > with understanding what happened. Considering that the nature of life and > death for elves is profoundly different from that of men, the term > reincarnation as used by men cannot adequately describe the process of elves. > > Possibly the concept of a resurrection would be more accurate. IMHO a > reincarnation deals with a transmigration of the soul into another "host body," > without the express personality or memories of the deceased person, effectually > becoming a different person. Whereas a resurrection is the same person given > life in the world of the living after his death. The proper term is "rehousing". Ressurection has way too many religious overtones and would imply that the dead body itself is given life, which is wrong: a new body is constructed. > Miriel was the first of the Eldar to die, giving birth to Feanor; but the first > slaying of an elf was when Melkor slew Finwe after the defilement of the Trees. > As for resurrections of elves, I believe that Glorfindel was the first. We only know that Finwe was the first slain *in Aman*. A number of elves had been probably already been killed in Middle-earth. > Mandos was known for his closedness with his counsel and his understanding of > the mind of Eru. Possibly he was the only Valar -- or Eldar -- to comprehend > the purpose that death had for both elves and men. So he would be able to > discern the necessity for a resurrection of specific elves for their > purpose/fate Eru had meant when he orchestrated the music of the Ainur. > > However, I have a hard time believing that all elves can be resurrected only > after a certain time in the Halls of Mandos. That to me seems like the Halls > of Mandos is more of an incarceration. There is no reason to believe that > death to either elves or men was meant to be a punishment, actually quite the > oppposite. But that does not mean that at the end of the world, the elves in > the Halls of Mandos will all be resurrected and aide the Ainur in the reshaping > of the world. At the end of the world we have no certainty about what will happen to the elves, let alone the knowledge that all or even some will all be ressurected. Nonetheless it remains that the last refuge of elves, the naked estel, is that in the end of the world what comes after will be perfectly acceptable by every fea - and the unity between hroa and fea seems to be a requirement for such a thing. So I find it indeed very probable that at world's end all elves will be rehoused (if such a term can still apply to the time beyond Arda's end) Aris Katsaris ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Lines: 65 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 08 Aug 2000 20:21:32 GMT References: <20000808153127.00323.00000123@ng-ch1.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000808162132.20603.00001507@nso-fz.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25410 In article <20000808153127.00323.00000123@ng-ch1.aol.com>, aragornnc@aol.com (AragornNC) writes: >>(6) When did the first Elven deaths occur? And first reincarnations? > >Actually, I think that the term reincarnations might be one of the problems >with understanding what happened. Considering that the nature of life and >death for elves is profoundly different from that of men, the term >reincarnation as used by men cannot adequately describe the process of elves. > > >Possibly the concept of a resurrection would be more accurate. IMHO a >reincarnation deals with a transmigration of the soul into another "host >body," >without the express personality or memories of the deceased person, >effectually >becoming a different person. Whereas a resurrection is the same person given >life in the world of the living after his death. Depends. I always say resurrection as dealing with the same body. Elves are placed in new bodies that are identical to the old. > >Miriel was the first of the Eldar to die, giving birth to Feanor; but the >first >slaying of an elf was when Melkor slew Finwe after the defilement of the >Trees. Those "firsts" are limited to the Eldar in Aman. It's stated that Eldar died on the Great Journey and Quendi died at Cuivienen. > As for resurrections of elves, I believe that Glorfindel was the first. It's impossible to tell. He was certainly the first and probably the only reembodied (maybe that's a better word) elf to return to Middle-earth. I think Tolkien decided that the Silmarillion texts were to be Numenorean myths learned from the Noldor. Thus since those texts tell us that "Finrod walks with his father Finarfin in Eldamar" there's a real good chance that Finrod's reembodiment preceeded Glorfindel's. However, I suspect that reembodiment began occurring soon after Eru authorized it. There were plenty of Eldar who died on the Great March and would have no moral impediment to reembodiment that the rebellious Noldor would have had. >Mandos was known for his closedness with his counsel and his understanding of >the mind of Eru. Possibly he was the only Valar -- or Eldar -- to comprehend >the purpose that death had for both elves and men. So he would be able to >discern the necessity for a resurrection of specific elves for their >purpose/fate Eru had meant when he orchestrated the music of the Ainur. > >However, I have a hard time believing that all elves can be resurrected only >after a certain time in the Halls of Mandos. That to me seems like the Halls >of Mandos is more of an incarceration. There is no reason to believe that >death to either elves or men was meant to be a punishment, actually quite the >oppposite. But that does not mean that at the end of the world, the elves in >the Halls of Mandos will all be resurrected and aide the Ainur in the >reshaping >of the world. > >More than my 2 cents, Russ ###### From: C R Nugent Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 22:11:56 +0100 Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station, Texas Lines: 49 Message-ID: <3990779C.3A65A8@tamu.edu> References: <20000808144933.20603.00001468@nso-fz.aol.com> <20000808153127.00323.00000123@ng-ch1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pd2000.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Aug 2000 21:12:15 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!news-feeds.jump.net!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25430 AragornNC wrote: > > >(6) When did the first Elven deaths occur? And first reincarnations? > > Actually, I think that the term reincarnations might be one of the problems > with understanding what happened. > Possibly the concept of a resurrection would be more accurate. IMHO a > reincarnation deals with a transmigration of the soul into another "host body," > without the express personality or memories of the deceased person, effectually > becoming a different person. > Whereas a resurrection is the same person given > life in the world of the living after his death. Reincarnation literally means putting in a body (carnate) form again. More specifically it maeans a rebirth of a soul in a new [human] body. It is a latin word describing a concept originally unique to Hindu (what I must call) mythology. In this mythology the actual memories of the individual may or may not persist but the *karma* or general good or ill will the individual obtained in the previous life always did. You did good you progress. You did bad you come back as a slug... and had the ability to better your situation in the next life. In the Hindu sense this is not what happens to elves.... Tolkien's concept seems to resemble a little of both the Christian and Hindu tradition (though I don't think there is any message in this intended for us). The Lord Jesus Christ rose from the the dead, his body carrying the same wounds resulting from His demise. This is true resurrection. In Elf mythology, the body is destroyed, the soul, the essence, the *being* continues (the Christian concept) and is placed is a *new* body (the Hindu concept). Remember only Christ's body reanimated. For the rest of us who believe in Him (and possibly others) it is the soul, the essence that lives forever. The continuation of the soul more closely resembles Christian concept of eternal life than it does Hindu's reembodiment for the purpose of cleansing one's karma. I guess elves seem to me to be like Angels in most respects other than the fact that they can procreate. Giving an Angel a new body seems to me a simple thing for God... Anyhoo, that's how I see it... Chris -- C R Nugent mailto:crnugent@tamu.edu Vezzini: No more rymes now, I mean it! Fezzick: Anybody want a peanut? ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000808132037.20603.00001465@nso-fz.aol.com> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Lines: 23 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <8n1k5.10292$gW5.667520@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 00:13:56 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.71.26 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 965780036 12.78.71.26 (Wed, 09 Aug 2000 00:13:56 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 00:13:56 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.72!wnfilter2!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25402 "Russ" wrote in message news:20000808132037.20603.00001465@nso-fz.aol.com... > That's always puzzled me. The only reason the Elves were called > to Valinor was that Melkor had made Middle-earth dangerous. > Obviously then, Elves were originally intended to reside in > Middle-earth, not Aman. There's a text that describes an > exchange between Manwe and Eru in which Eru pretty much tells > Manwe that he and the Valar made a mistake by abandoning Middle- > earth to Melkor and calling the Elves to Aman. Actually I think the whole 'Aman' thing was itself a mistake. The Valar were never supposed to lavish a large portion of their efforts on making a beautiful home apart for themselves. They should have been out and about working for the improvement of all Middle Earth. Abandoning it to Melkor BEFORE the arrival of the Elves was a terrible mistake... but then when the Elves arrived it wouldn't have been a good idea to just leave them there. They COULD have taken it upon themselves to 'fix' Middle Earth, but they figured it would be easier to bring the Elves to the nice place they had made instead. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 23:03:58 -0400 Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3990CA13.37EFA593@erols.com> References: <20000808144933.20603.00001468@nso-fz.aol.com> <20000808153127.00323.00000123@ng-ch1.aol.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dVJFKXDI59qrwh2tFa8Xffp0QhWGvtYQFl23b9IM/9A= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Aug 2000 03:24:36 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25383 AragornNC wrote: > However, I have a hard time believing that all elves can be resurrected only > after a certain time in the Halls of Mandos. That to me seems like the Halls > of Mandos is more of an incarceration. Tolkien actually discusses this in one of the later HoME books. I forget the details, but they are not incarcerated; they meditate on their former life and are prepared for re-housing. The amount of time varies from elf to elf. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 23:14:37 -0400 Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3990CC92.B264EBA5@erols.com> References: <20000808132037.20603.00001465@nso-fz.aol.com> <8n1k5.10292$gW5.667520@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: dVJFKXDI59qxRtGKrXULzpUC+KylCZPXUqFfUTSEDAc= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Aug 2000 03:24:44 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.netcologne.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25385 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > There's a text that describes an > > exchange between Manwe and Eru in which Eru pretty much tells > > Manwe that he and the Valar made a mistake by abandoning Middle- > > earth to Melkor and calling the Elves to Aman. > > Actually I think the whole 'Aman' thing was itself a mistake. > They COULD have taken it upon themselves to 'fix' Middle Earth, > but they figured it would be easier to bring the Elves to the nice > place they had made instead. OTOH, I think that it made sense for Elves and Men to be separated. The result of them living together was the wearying of the Elves and the disquiet and envy on the part of Men. In some sense, the Elves were by their nature more fitted for an changeless place like Aman. Of course, Tolkien seemed ambivalent on the question, as his writing on the exchange between Manwë and Eru shows. We don't know whether he eventually would have decided that Elves belonged in Middle-Earth or not. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 100 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 965801438 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 09 Aug 2000 01:10:38 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 01:10:38 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 06:10:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.inc.net!loops.cs.wisc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25389 Quoth "Morgil" : > Welcome back from your Honeymoon.(You are back aren´t you?) Yup, I'm back... though I can't swear that I'll be particularly on top of things for a little while yet. :) > I hope you had a good time, both of you, and hopefully you > accomplished more then just reading of "Harry Potter". (Very > worrying... ;-) ) Actually, I read Harry Potter _before_ the wedding; I wasn't particularly clear in my previous post. (My wife Kim had already read it, and her mother had just picked up a copy... and since I wasn't particularly eager to buy one myself, I took the opportunity to read it while I was there.) I enjoyed it, but I'm not at all caught up in Pottermania just yet. > Sigh! This brings on only about dozen of new questions... > (I guess I really should get that "Morgoth´s Ring"-book from somewhere. It's a good one. :) > Part One. > (1) Were the reincarnated Elves somehow different from ordinary ones? At least in Glorfindel's case, I do recall some mention of "rehousing" (together with his personal sacrifice) leading to a spiritual purification of some sort, which in turn gave him greater power in the "spiritual" world (and thus, for example, against the Nazgul). Whether that would hold more generally, I'm not sure. > (2) (Except Glorfindel possibly) Is there any mention of a > Reincarnated Elf actually doing anything meaningful? Er... Miriel sewed a lot, though she never actually got to see other Elves again. Honestly, though, I can't think of much of anything apart from Tolkien's comments on Glorfindel. (He may have once considered the possibility that other Elves--possibly rehoused-- returned with Glorfindel, but I don't think the idea was ever really explored.) > (3) Could it be possible, that the Reincarnated Elves were somehow > more "spiritual" beings, even though they had a physical appearance > too? As I said above, I get the impression that Glorfindel, at least, had a stronger spiritual presence after his rehousing, though I never had the impression that he was less powerful physically than before. I rather suspect that given the deep connection between the body and the spirit (hroa and fea, to use Tolkien's terms), the body would have to be effectively identical after rehousing. Then again, I don't know of any authoritative statements on the issue; I think there is room to posit a fairly broad range of changes due to the rehousing process. > Part Two > (4) What about the Avari? Did they too reincarnate in the West? > > (5) Was there a bunch of reincarnated Avari walking around Valinor > during the Age of Trees? What was their "social status"? I know that there are at least suggestions of answers to these questions out there, but I don't have time to look for them just now. I'm pretty sure that there were _not_ Avari rehoused during the days of the Trees. In fact, I seem to recall from _somewhere_ that the Valar didn't start rehousing Elves until they had to start dealing with those who died in Valinor, but I could be imagining things. > (6) When did the first Elven deaths occur? And first reincarnations? We know that there was some sort of shadow of fear over the Elves even at Cuivienen, as they feared Orome when he first found them due to Morgoth's preparation. I've always guessed that there were deaths in that period (I think we hear that there were at least disappearances, and I would expect that at least some captives would die, of dispair if nothing else). As I said above, I vaguely recall something about the first reincarnations taking place _after_ the death of Miriel (probably later if my memory's right... someone really has to look this one up for me :) ). > (7) Was it originally purposed that Elves would live in > Middle-Earth, and only after dying(in a course of thousands of > centuries) they would be moved to Undying Lands, but Valar messed > this up by inviting them there in forehand? Sort of along the lines that Conrad has already suggested, I don't think that the original plan for Arda included a seperate region to be "Undying Lands". Given that, the question of where the Elves "belonged" is largely beside the point. As it turned out, though, the eventual separation of mortals and immortals may have been for the best. This could have been one of those unexpected beauties of Arda Marred (like rain and clouds and snow, to name a few more concrete examples). > Anyway once again, welcome back Steuard. Things have really gone > downhill in your absence. Just take a look at the "Peace > Anniversary" -thread. (Horrible Flame War going on...) You people are all a bunch of unrepentant liars and flamers. Why do I spend time here, anyway? :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Morgil" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000808132037.20603.00001465@nso-fz.aol.com> <8n1k5.10292$gW5.667520@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3990CC92.B264EBA5@erols.com> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Lines: 37 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 06:47:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.142.87.142 X-Trace: read2.inet.fi 965803640 194.142.87.142 (Wed, 09 Aug 2000 09:47:20 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 09:47:20 EET DST Organization: Sonera corp Internet services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!nntp.inet.fi!central.inet.fi!inet.fi!read2.inet.fi.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25394 Flame of the West kirjoitti viestissä <3990CC92.B264EBA5@erols.com>... >Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > >> Actually I think the whole 'Aman' thing was itself a mistake. >> They COULD have taken it upon themselves to 'fix' Middle Earth, >> but they figured it would be easier to bring the Elves to the nice >> place they had made instead. > >OTOH, I think that it made sense for Elves and Men to be >separated. The result of them living together was the >wearying of the Elves and the disquiet and envy on the >part of Men. In some sense, the Elves were by their >nature more fitted for an changeless place like Aman. >Of course, Tolkien seemed ambivalent on the question, >as his writing on the exchange between Manwë and Eru >shows. We don't know whether he eventually would have >decided that Elves belonged in Middle-Earth or not. I´m thinking Aman was ment to be an earthly Paradise, where Elves would have moved, when their time in Middle- Earth was over, but Valar rushed things and called them in beforehand. This then resulted some Elves thinking they should never have left "good ol´ Middle-Earth", because they had not yet grown tired of it. On the other hand, I do believe that Elves were ment to abandon the Middle-Earth and leave it to Humans at some point. Either by dying or if not, finally growing tired of life and having their spirit to leave the body and transferred to Other Side. I think Aman was right place for Elves, but they should have lived in Middle-Earth long enough so that they would learn to appreciate Undying Lands. Morgil ###### From: "Morgil" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Lines: 61 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 10:58:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.197.14.100 X-Trace: read2.inet.fi 965818735 194.197.14.100 (Wed, 09 Aug 2000 13:58:55 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 13:58:55 EET DST Organization: Sonera corp Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!nntp.inet.fi!central.inet.fi!inet.fi!read2.inet.fi.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25396 Steuard Jensen kirjoitti viestissä ... >Quoth "Morgil" : > >> Sigh! This brings on only about dozen of new questions... >> (I guess I really should get that "Morgoth´s Ring"-book from somewhere. > >It's a good one. :) It seems there is only one copy available in Capital City area libraries in Finland. I´ll reserve it next time I go to a library. >> Part One. >> (1) Were the reincarnated Elves somehow different from ordinary ones? > >At least in Glorfindel's case, I do recall some mention of "rehousing" >(together with his personal sacrifice) leading to a spiritual >purification of some sort, which in turn gave him greater power in the >"spiritual" world (and thus, for example, against the Nazgul). >Whether that would hold more generally, I'm not sure. I would imagine that those who have gone through the whole purgatorial experience, would be much less interested about "earthly" things, like expencive jewels, wild parties and making out etc. >> Part Two >> (4) What about the Avari? Did they too reincarnate in the West? >> >> (5) Was there a bunch of reincarnated Avari walking around Valinor >> during the Age of Trees? What was their "social status"? > >I know that there are at least suggestions of answers to these >questions out there, but I don't have time to look for them just now. >I'm pretty sure that there were _not_ Avari rehoused during the days >of the Trees. In fact, I seem to recall from _somewhere_ that the >Valar didn't start rehousing Elves until they had to start dealing >with those who died in Valinor, but I could be imagining things. That souds very strange. After all, reincarnation/rehousing should be possible for all the Elves. Maybe there was a seperated place for them somewhere in the backwoods of Valinor. >> Anyway once again, welcome back Steuard. Things have really gone >> downhill in your absence. Just take a look at the "Peace >> Anniversary" -thread. (Horrible Flame War going on...) > >You people are all a bunch of unrepentant liars and flamers. Why do I >spend time here, anyway? :) Maybe you should try out Xenite. I have heard it´s much more polite and on-topic place, full of nice people. I was just being nice earlier but it´s not like anyone would miss you here. ;-) Morgil ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 16:02:46 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 26 Message-ID: <8mrksa$2db$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-b118.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 965826250 2475 212.205.219.118 (9 Aug 2000 13:04:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 9 Aug 2000 13:04:10 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25409 Morgil wrote in message news:PPak5.63$rq1.2529@read2.inet.fi... > > >I know that there are at least suggestions of answers to these > >questions out there, but I don't have time to look for them just now. > >I'm pretty sure that there were _not_ Avari rehoused during the days > >of the Trees. In fact, I seem to recall from _somewhere_ that the > >Valar didn't start rehousing Elves until they had to start dealing > >with those who died in Valinor, but I could be imagining things. > > > That souds very strange. After all, reincarnation/rehousing should be > possible for all the Elves. I think they didn't believe they had the authority or the power to interfere so much on the Children of Iluvatar as to construct new bodies for the slain Elves. Once Manwe asked Eru, he gave them authority and told them they already had the power. Aris Katsaris ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 09 Aug 2000 14:22:09 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000809102209.02776.00000792@nso-fp.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dc1.nntp.concentric.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25412 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: >> Welcome back from your Honeymoon.(You are back aren´t you?) > >Yup, I'm back... though I can't swear that I'll be particularly on top >of things for a little while yet. :) Stu...Stu...Stu...why did you leave yourself so open... Well, *I'm*not going to be the one to say it. Russ ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!)~ References: <20000809102209.02776.00000792@nso-fp.aol.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 12 Message-ID: <_ofk5.6$x3.477@uchinews> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 965837498 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 09 Aug 2000 11:11:38 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 11:11:38 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2000 16:11:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25443 sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: > >Yup, I'm back... though I can't swear that I'll be particularly on > >top of things for a little while yet. :) Quoth mcresq@aol.com (Russ): > Stu...Stu...Stu...why did you leave yourself so open... > > Well, *I'm*not going to be the one to say it. Hey now... it's her turn. Nothing wrong with that. :) Steuard Jensen ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000808132037.20603.00001465@nso-fz.aol.com> <8n1k5.10292$gW5.667520@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3990CC92.B264EBA5@erols.com> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Message-ID: <7onk5.4968$4T.287146@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 01:16:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.73.5 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 965870211 12.78.73.5 (Thu, 10 Aug 2000 01:16:51 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 01:16:51 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.20!wnmasters3!bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25462 "Flame of the West" wrote in message news:3990CC92.B264EBA5@erols.com... > OTOH, I think that it made sense for Elves and Men to be > separated. The result of them living together was the > wearying of the Elves and the disquiet and envy on the > part of Men. In some sense, the Elves were by their > nature more fitted for an changeless place like Aman. > Of course, Tolkien seemed ambivalent on the question, > as his writing on the exchange between Manwë and Eru > shows. We don't know whether he eventually would have > decided that Elves belonged in Middle-Earth or not. Yes, Elves (and even moreso Ainur) living apart from Men in the end makes sense. However, maybe it didn't need to have been so TOTALLY apart. In early drafts the original geography had the Ainur living on an island in the middle of a lake in the middle of Middle Earth. They were 'apart' from the lands that would eventually become those of Men, but not truly separated from those lands. In an 'Arda Unmarred' or 'Arda Slightly-Less Marred' it might have been possible for the Ainur, and eventually the Eldar, to dwell within 'sight' of Men but be cut off from them and eventually drift away into old legends and be forgotten except for an occasional lost traveller who spots a beautiful island far off through deep mists, but is never able to find it again. ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000808132037.20603.00001465@nso-fz.aol.com> <8n1k5.10292$gW5.667520@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3990CC92.B264EBA5@erols.com> <7onk5.4968$4T.287146@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Lines: 25 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:01:19 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.94 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: news.bahnhof.se 965908879 195.178.166.94 (Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:01:19 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:01:19 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!news.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25467 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > Yes, Elves (and even moreso Ainur) living apart from Men in the > end makes sense. However, maybe it didn't need to have been so > TOTALLY apart. In early drafts the original geography had the > Ainur living on an island in the middle of a lake in the middle of > Middle Earth. Not only in the early drafts. Their first place of living in the published Silmarillion was also far more close to the lands of men. On an island no less. I don't remember the name of the island in English but in swedish it's called Almaren. Same name? >They were 'apart' from the lands that would > eventually become those of Men, but not truly separated from those > lands. In an 'Arda Unmarred' or 'Arda Slightly-Less Marred' it > might have been possible for the Ainur, and eventually the Eldar, > to dwell within 'sight' of Men Well, they would have had the men been awaken at the time. Oh, and if Melkor hadn't destroyed their island... /Jonas ###### From: johnnybravo58@hotmail.com (Johnny Firic) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 20:23:45 GMT Organization: HiNet Lines: 15 Message-ID: <399308ce.2108189@news.tel.hr> References: <20000808132037.20603.00001465@nso-fz.aol.com> <8n1k5.10292$gW5.667520@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3990CC92.B264EBA5@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: as1-m118.tel.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 965939249 10240 195.29.240.118 (10 Aug 2000 20:27:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Aug 2000 20:27:29 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news.uni-ulm.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!schlund.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25496 > On the other hand, I do believe that Elves were ment to >abandon the Middle-Earth and leave it to Humans at some >point. Either by dying or if not, finally growing tired of life and >having their spirit to leave the body and transferred to Other >Side. This is where the never-fully-achieved Lost Tales story fits in perfectly - something like "as Men grow stronger and multiply, the fairies become ever more transparent and filmy" etc., and they finally completely fade, and Men don't even believe they exist any more. Isn't that better then all this speculation? Well, at least it's more romantic. - Johnny - ###### From: johnnybravo58@hotmail.com (Johnny Firic) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 20:23:46 GMT Organization: HiNet Lines: 13 Message-ID: <399309ee.2396934@news.tel.hr> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: as1-m118.tel.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 965939250 10240 195.29.240.118 (10 Aug 2000 20:27:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Aug 2000 20:27:30 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25497 > In fact, I seem to recall from _somewhere_ that the >Valar didn't start rehousing Elves until they had to start dealing >with those who died in Valinor, but I could be imagining things. In the Manwe-Eru 'exchange', Manwe asks Eru what they (the Valar) are supposed to do now, that Death has entered Valinor (case of Miriel, possibly Finwe). Eru replies - either re-house them, or let them be reborn as children. So, yes, in fact the Valar had not previoudly considered rehousing or any of that. Avari deaths are not mentioned. - Johnny - ###### From: johnnybravo58@hotmail.com (Johnny Firic) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 20:23:47 GMT Organization: HiNet Lines: 13 Message-ID: <39930ac5.2611859@news.tel.hr> References: <20000809102209.02776.00000792@nso-fp.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: as1-m118.tel.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 965939250 10240 195.29.240.118 (10 Aug 2000 20:27:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Aug 2000 20:27:30 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25495 >>> Welcome back from your Honeymoon.(You are back aren´t you?) >> >>Yup, I'm back... though I can't swear that I'll be particularly on top >>of things for a little while yet. :) > >Stu...Stu...Stu...why did you leave yourself so open... > >Well, *I'm*not going to be the one to say it. > >Russ Heh heh ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Message-ID: References: <20000808144933.20603.00001468@nso-fz.aol.com> <20000808153127.00323.00000123@ng-ch1.aol.com> <3990779C.3A65A8@tamu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 34 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 01:42:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.179 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 965958124 208.170.95.179 (Thu, 10 Aug 2000 20:42:04 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 20:42:04 CDT Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.online.be!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25543 In article <3990779C.3A65A8@tamu.edu>, C R Nugent wrote: > Reincarnation literally means putting in a body (carnate) form again. > More specifically it maeans a rebirth of a soul in a new [human] body. > It is a latin word describing a concept originally unique to Hindu (what > I must call) mythology. First of all, you're not _obliged_ to use the term "mythology" which I suspect many Hindus would view as an insult. It is not even technically correct, since it is a point of dogma and _not_ a story. The story of the marriage of Shiva and Parvati might be called myth; the story of the crucifixion of Jesus might be called myth, both in the sense of "a story with deep religious significance". But "the immortality of the soul" or "the total depravity of humanity" are dogmas and not myths; the same is true of "reincarnation". Secondly, it is not true that reincarnation is "originally unique to Hindu [religion]"; the concept existed in several places outside of India with no evidence (in some cases, no possibility) of contact. Greek philosophers from at least the time of Pythagoras, and quite possibly before, held a doctrine of "reincarnation"; it was a common if still somewhat esoteric belief in the late Roman Empire. Some Jewish sects also hold a belief in reincarnation; if there is an influence, it is from the earlier Greco-Roman beliefs and not from India at all. It seems that the concept of reincarnation is just a natural one for human beings to consider; one reason may be that, perceiving all other sorts of cycles in nature, it is reasonable to suppose that lives follow cycles too. Elvish reincarnation is comprehensible in these terms too; since Elvish fëar are indestructible, it is reasonable for them to be "recycled". The condition of Men in Tolkien's world is the oddity, because although human fëar are also indestructible, they are somehow siphoned entirely out of the world to an unknown destination (unknown to the Elves, anyway; and Men had no certain information about it either at any point during the Three Ages). David Salo ###### From: AragornNC Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 03:43:26 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8mvsou$pfo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20000808132037.20603.00001465@nso-fz.aol.com> <8n1k5.10292$gW5.667520@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3990CC92.B264EBA5@erols.com> <7onk5.4968$4T.287146@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.14.27.52 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Aug 11 03:43:26 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.06 [en]C-gatewaynet (Win98; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x68.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 63.14.27.52 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDwademurphy Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25516 In article , "Jonas Thorell" wrote: > Not only in the early drafts. Their first place of living in the published > Silmarillion was also far more close to the lands of men. On an > island no less. I don't remember the name of the island in English > but in swedish it's called Almaren. Same name? Avalon - great Arthurian/Welsh myth. Also I believe it plays prevalent in the Arimethean myth (neither here nor there). -- Wade W Murphy "Inconceivable!" "You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means." Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 15:31:13 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <20000808132037.20603.00001465@nso-fz.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.cd.e1 X-Server-Date: 11 Aug 2000 19:31:35 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25609 Russ wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >In article , "Morgil" >writes: >>(4) What about the Avari? Did they too reincarnate in the West? > >That probably depends on one's opinion whether live Avari could pass over the >Sea. There's conflicting writing on this. If Avari could not take the >Straight Path then I doubt they could be reincarnated. We don't know of any specific Avari dying, because the tales tell little of them after the Eldar left them. But we do know that if any Avar was slain by mischance, he would *have* to be reincarnated because all the Quendi were immortal within the life of the world. >>(6) When did the first Elven deaths occur? And first reincarnations? > >The first deaths occurred at Cuivienen. Finrod, Glorfindel and Miriel are the >first we're told about but that doesn't mean they were the first. I think Miriel Finwë's wife is the first we're told about, and Finwë himself is second. Finrod came much, much later (after many other deaths), and Glorfindel later still if I recall correctly. > There's a text that >describes an exchange between Manwe and Eru in which Eru pretty much tells >Manwe that he and the Valar made a mistake by abandoning Middle-earth to Melkor >and calling the Elves to Aman. Where is that text, please? -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 15:36:44 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <20000808132037.20603.00001465@nso-fz.aol.com> <8n1k5.10292$gW5.667520@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3990CC92.B264EBA5@erols.com> <7onk5.4968$4T.287146@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.cd.e1 X-Server-Date: 11 Aug 2000 19:37:07 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25605 Jonas Thorell wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Their first place of living in the published >Silmarillion was also far more close to the lands of men. On an >island no less. I don't remember the name of the island in English >but in swedish it's called Almaren. Same name? Yes, same name. "Almaren" is neither English nor svensk (svenska?), but Elvish or possibly of the tongue of the Valar. Translating Tolkien's writings is always a daunting task, but I believe he gave instructions that the names in Elvish, Dwarvish, and so on should not be translated. Since they were foreign to English readers, they would be no more foreign to readers in other languages. By contrast, names with English elements, especially Hobbit-names like Hardbottle and Bywater, and place-names like the Misty Mountains or the River Loudwater, would have to be translated to equivalents in the target language. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Lines: 63 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 11 Aug 2000 20:57:35 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000811165735.04203.00003108@nso-fo.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25588 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >>>(4) What about the Avari? Did they too reincarnate in the West? >> >>That probably depends on one's opinion whether live Avari could pass over >the >>Sea. There's conflicting writing on this. If Avari could not take the >>Straight Path then I doubt they could be reincarnated. > >We don't know of any specific Avari dying, because the tales tell >little of them after the Eldar left them. But we do know that if any >Avar was slain by mischance, he would *have* to be reincarnated >because all the Quendi were immortal within the life of the world. Not necessarily: "Concerning the fate of other elves, especially of the Dark-elves who refused the summons to Aman, the Eldar know little. The Re-born report that in Mandos there are many elves, and among them are the Alamanyar, but that there is in the Halls of Waiting little mingling or communing of kind with kind, or indeed of any one fea with another. " Morgoth's Ring pg 223. Since the Eldar of Aman had to be told by the re-born that there were Avari in Mandos, it means that no Avari had yet been reborn to live in Aman. >>>(6) When did the first Elven deaths occur? And first reincarnations? >> >>The first deaths occurred at Cuivienen. Finrod, Glorfindel and Miriel are >the >>first we're told about but that doesn't mean they were the first. > >I think Miriel Finwë's wife is the first we're told about, and Finwë >himself is second. Finrod came much, much later (after many other >deaths), and Glorfindel later still if I recall correctly. In terms of specific names, yes. However, we are told that many Elves died in Middle earth prior to Miriel. See citation in section below. >> There's a text that >>describes an exchange between Manwe and Eru in which Eru pretty much tells >>Manwe that he and the Valar made a mistake by abandoning Middle-earth to >Melkor >>and calling the Elves to Aman. > >Where is that text, please? It's in the Converse of Manwe and Eru at the end of the Athrabeth in Morgoth's Ring at page 363: "The new conception proceeds, in outline, as follows. The Music of the Ainur had contained no prevision of the death of Elves and the existence of their houseless fear, since according to their nature they were to be immortal within the life of Arda. There were many such fear of Elves who had died in Middle-earth gathered in the Halls of Mandos, but it was not until the death of Miriel in Aman that Manwe directly appealed to Eru for counsel. Eru 'accepted and ratified the position' - though making it plain to Manwe that the Valar should have contested Melkor's domination of Middle-earth far earlier, and that they had lacked estel: they should have trusted that in a legitimate war Eru would not have permitted Melkor to so greatly damage Arda that the Children could not come, or could not inhabit it." Russ ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000808132037.20603.00001465@nso-fz.aol.com> <8n1k5.10292$gW5.667520@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3990CC92.B264EBA5@erols.com> <7onk5.4968$4T.287146@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 22:51:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.250 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: news.bahnhof.se 966034290 195.178.166.250 (Sat, 12 Aug 2000 00:51:30 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 00:51:30 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!unlisys!news.snafu.de!isdnet!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!news.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25578 Stan Brown wrote: > >Their first place of living in the published > >Silmarillion was also far more close to the lands of men. On an > >island no less. I don't remember the name of the island in English > >but in swedish it's called Almaren. Same name? > Yes, same name. Ah, okay. > "Almaren" is neither English nor svensk (svenska?), but Elvish or > possibly of the tongue of the Valar. Svenska. Still, it sounded like Swedish that's why I figured it had been translated (the Swedish translator of Tolkiens work never ceases to astound me...) /Jonas ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 17:26:34 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <20000808132037.20603.00001465@nso-fz.aol.com> <8n1k5.10292$gW5.667520@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3990CC92.B264EBA5@erols.com> <7onk5.4968$4T.287146@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.cd.23 X-Server-Date: 12 Aug 2000 21:27:23 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25710 Jonas Thorell wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Stan Brown wrote: > >> "Almaren" is neither English nor svensk (svenska?), but Elvish or >> possibly of the tongue of the Valar. > >Svenska. Still, it sounded like Swedish That -n would indicate a definite article, right? > (the Swedish translator of Tolkiens work >never ceases to astound me...) Tolkien had about a page of *very* sharp words for the first Swedish translation. If you can get hold of a copy of /Letters/ you'll have fun reading it. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000808132037.20603.00001465@nso-fz.aol.com> <8n1k5.10292$gW5.667520@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3990CC92.B264EBA5@erols.com> <7onk5.4968$4T.287146@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 22:29:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.167.66 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: news.bahnhof.se 966119391 195.178.167.66 (Sun, 13 Aug 2000 00:29:51 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 00:29:51 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!news.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25667 Stan Brown wrote: > >> "Almaren" is neither English nor svensk (svenska?), but Elvish or > >> possibly of the tongue of the Valar. > >Svenska. Still, it sounded like Swedish > That -n would indicate a definite article, right? If it hadn't been a name, the -en or -n (depending on what word) part would have indicated the defiinte article. In undefinite form it would have been Almare which could have been both singular or plural depending on the context (don't worry, it's not context-dependent in every word and mostly it's not...) Almaren is a name I could imaginge people in the area to give to an island known for its elm-trees. > Tolkien had about a page of *very* sharp words for the first Swedish > translation. That would be the one by Åke Ohlmarks, right? >If you can get hold of a copy of /Letters/ you'll have > fun reading it. I tried to get a copy of it a couple of months ago but that seemed to be impossible (: /Jonas ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2000 21:50:47 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <20000808132037.20603.00001465@nso-fz.aol.com> <8n1k5.10292$gW5.667520@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3990CC92.B264EBA5@erols.com> <7onk5.4968$4T.287146@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.cd.10 X-Server-Date: 13 Aug 2000 01:51:47 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!feeder.qis.net!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25719 Jonas Thorell wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Stan Brown wrote: >> Tolkien had about a page of *very* sharp words for the first Swedish >> translation. > >That would be the one by Åke Ohlmarks, right? I'm nearly sure that was the name. >>If you can get hold of a copy of /Letters/ you'll have >> fun reading it. > >I tried to get a copy of it a couple of months ago but that seemed >to be impossible (: I'm surprised. Have you tried ? I did just now, and there are several modestly-priced copies on offer from UK booksellers. I can understand you wouldn't want to ship a copy across the Atlantic, but I assume that shipping within the EU is not a major difficulty. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000808132037.20603.00001465@nso-fz.aol.com> <8n1k5.10292$gW5.667520@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3990CC92.B264EBA5@erols.com> <7onk5.4968$4T.287146@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 02:23:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.144 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: news.bahnhof.se 966133402 195.178.166.144 (Sun, 13 Aug 2000 04:23:22 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 04:23:22 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!news.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25664 Stan Brown wrote: [Letters] > >I tried to get a copy of it a couple of months ago but that seemed > >to be impossible (: > I'm surprised. Have you tried ? I did just > now, and there are several modestly-priced copies on offer from UK > booksellers. I can understand you wouldn't want to ship a copy > across the Atlantic, but I assume that shipping within the EU is not > a major difficulty. No, that wouldn't be a difficulty but I'm a bit old-fashioned when it comes to books...I like to be able to browse around to see if it's worth the money before I make up my mind. Therefore, I prefer a old-fashioned book-store. I'm not that much of a Tolkien-nut to want to own everything with his name on... Well, I basically entered every book-shop I could think of to see if they had it in store and came up with nothing. Had I had the money I could have walked away with almost every other book he and Christopher Tolkien has released including the entire HoME series but not Letters... One day perhaps... /Jonas ###### From: "Andrew Clark" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 12:47:12 +0100 Organization: Customer of Energis Squared Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8n63ue$f7l$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <20000808144933.20603.00001468@nso-fz.aol.com> <20000808153127.00323.00000123@ng-ch1.aol.com> <3990779C.3A65A8@tamu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-36.fermium.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news7.svr.pol.co.uk 966169358 15605 62.136.69.164 (13 Aug 2000 12:22:38 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Aug 2000 12:22:38 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25665 David Salo wrote The condition > of Men in Tolkien's world is the oddity, because although human fëar are > also indestructible, they are somehow siphoned entirely out of the world to > an unknown destination (unknown to the Elves, anyway; and Men had no > certain information about it either at any point during the Three Ages Even in the midst of an immense and complex construct of imagination, Tolkien's own deep feelings often shine through. He makes the fate of Men after death uncertain and full of fear, but with an underlying but not confirmed hope of certain reunion with the Maker. I have the feeling that the fact that his mythology represents pretty accurately the feelings of a young man from a Christian upbringing who has lost all of his close friends. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 08:16:08 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <20000808132037.20603.00001465@nso-fz.aol.com> <8n1k5.10292$gW5.667520@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3990CC92.B264EBA5@erols.com> <7onk5.4968$4T.287146@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.ce.f3 X-Server-Date: 13 Aug 2000 12:17:04 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25705 Jonas Thorell wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >No, that wouldn't be a difficulty but I'm a bit old-fashioned when it comes >to books...I like to be able to browse around to see if it's worth >the money before I make up my mind. Therefore, I prefer a old-fashioned >book-store. If your qualm is whether the text is worth owning, get the book from a library. I don't know where you are in Sweden, but I suspect your local library can borrow a copy from another library if need be. If your qualm is whether the physical copy will be in good shape, I have ordered from several booksellers in abebooks, and have found that the descriptions of quality were always accurate. If you just don't want to spend the money, that's a matter of personal choice and I won't say a word against it. :-) -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000808132037.20603.00001465@nso-fz.aol.com> <8n1k5.10292$gW5.667520@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3990CC92.B264EBA5@erols.com> <7onk5.4968$4T.287146@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Lines: 23 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.73.17 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 966172726 212.151.73.17 (Sun, 13 Aug 2000 15:18:46 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 15:18:46 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 X-Sender: unknown@d212-151-73-17.swipnet.se Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 15:21:05 +0200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25690 Stan Brown hath written: [snip] > >Translating Tolkien's writings is always a daunting task, but I >believe he gave instructions that the names in Elvish, Dwarvish, and >so on should not be translated. Since they were foreign to English >readers, they would be no more foreign to readers in other >languages. > >By contrast, names with English elements, especially Hobbit-names >like Hardbottle and Bywater, and place-names like the Misty >Mountains or the River Loudwater, would have to be translated to >equivalents in the target language. That was the stance he decided on after a while, and I think it is the right one. Judging by his Letters, though, he at first wanted the English names (Baggins, Bywater and so on) to remain untranslated. Öjevind ###### From: C R Nugent Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 18:25:22 +0100 Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station, Texas Lines: 134 Message-ID: <39982B82.32866AAF@tamu.edu> References: <20000808144933.20603.00001468@nso-fz.aol.com> <20000808153127.00323.00000123@ng-ch1.aol.com> <3990779C.3A65A8@tamu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pd2000.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Aug 2000 17:25:23 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newshub.northeast.verio.net!verio!news-feeds.jump.net!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25815 David Salo wrote: > = > In article <3990779C.3A65A8@tamu.edu>, C R Nugent w= rote: > = > > Reincarnation literally means putting in a body (carnate) form again.= > > More specifically it maeans a rebirth of a soul in a new [human] body= =2E > > It is a latin word describing a concept originally unique to Hindu (w= hat > > I must call) mythology. > = > First of all, you're not _obliged_ to use the term "mythology" which= I > suspect many Hindus would view as an insult. = No offense intended. My apolgies. I simply don't believe in reincarnation. However, my sentence "a concept originally unique to Hindu (what I must call) mythology" correctly uses the word "mythology". = I'm not calling reincarnation a myth I'm referring to Hinduism as mythololgy. This may not be an entirely accurate use of the term, but I would fully expect a Hindu to call my Christian beliefs mythology. Then we could buy each other a beer and talk about it, or better yet, something less caustic, like whether crickett should really be considered a sport [sic]. mythology =3D body of myths myth =3D an unfounded or false notion = > Secondly, it is not true that reincarnation is "originally unique to= > Hindu [religion]";the concept existed in several places outside of Indi= a > with no evidence (in some cases, no possibility) of contact. = This would mean something if any of your examples occurred *before* Hindus had a belief in reincarnation. The Vedic scriptures, the foundation of Hinduism, date to *at least* 1500 bce. Heck, the Buddah lived from 623 -543 bce, his philosophy was an *answer* to the endless cyle of reincarnation. So Hindu belief in reincarnation must predate his birth. = > Greek= > philosophers from at least the time of Pythagoras, and quite possibly > before, held a doctrine of "reincarnation"; Pythagoras was born about 569 bce in Samos, Ionia and died about 475 bce. > it was a common i= f still > somewhat esoteric belief in the late Roman Empire. What's that, about 300 BC to 68 AD? > Some Jewish sects als= o > hold a belief in reincarnation; if there is an influence, it is from th= e > earlier Greco-Roman beliefs and not from India at all. = Then that would rule them out since I've demonstrated the belief in India predated Greco-Roman belief. Besides all that, I still don't see the problem you see with my statement with either a)reincarnation spreading as an influence from only India (which I never said) or b) reincarnation cropping up independently elswhere in place and time. It's as if I said pyramids were originally unique to Egypt and you reply: "No, the Aztecs built pyramids". That's a non-sequitor. You would have to show me someone who built pyramids *before* the Egyptians, whether or not pyramid building cropped up independently or diffused through cultures. = > It seems that t= he > concept of reincarnation is just a natural one for human beings to > consider; And from what we know of history (does that qualify it better?) it was conceived in India first. Most fully expressed in Hinduism. > one reason may be that, perceiving all other sorts of cycles= in > nature, it is reasonable to suppose that lives follow cycles too. I don't know if it's all that reasonable. In these cycles you speak of everything else breaks down to it's basic elements, why not the soul? Why would it be reasonable for the soul to stay intact? > = Elvish > reincarnation is comprehensible in these terms too; since Elvish f=EBar= are > indestructible, it is reasonable for them to be "recycled". It's just as reasonable for them to "go to Mandos" and stay there. = > The co= ndition > of Men in Tolkien's world is the oddity, because although human f=EBar = are > also indestructible, they are somehow siphoned entirely out of the worl= d to > an unknown destination (unknown to the Elves, anyway; and Men had no > certain information about it either at any point during the Three Ages)= =2E This is an excellent point, and an excellent point of discussion. Respectfully, Chris -- = C R Nugent mailto:crnugent@tamu.edu ###### From: C R Nugent Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:08:18 +0100 Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station, Texas Lines: 20 Message-ID: <39996AF2.DBAEB791@tamu.edu> References: <20000808132037.20603.00001465@nso-fz.aol.com> <8n1k5.10292$gW5.667520@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3990CC92.B264EBA5@erols.com> <7onk5.4968$4T.287146@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pd2000.tamu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Aug 2000 16:08:20 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.74 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.tesion.net!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news-feeds.jump.net!news.tamu.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:25869 Stan Brown wrote: > Translating Tolkien's writings is always a daunting task, but I > believe he gave instructions that the names in Elvish, Dwarvish, and > so on should not be translated. Since they were foreign to English > readers, they would be no more foreign to readers in other > languages. > > By contrast, names with English elements, especially Hobbit-names > like Hardbottle and Bywater, and place-names like the Misty > Mountains or the River Loudwater, would have to be translated to > equivalents in the target language. Interesting. Any idea on what to do with languages with different alphabets? Phonetic spelling? Chris -- C R Nugent mailto:crnugent@tamu.edu ###### From: "Brett Hainley" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000808132037.20603.00001465@nso-fz.aol.com> <8n1k5.10292$gW5.667520@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3990CC92.B264EBA5@erols.com> <7onk5.4968$4T.287146@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <39996AF2.DBAEB791@tamu.edu> Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Lines: 13 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 02:12:29 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv2-sxzX0yxscoGSNZ4nzwpMwXwTSzGzYXequHWVOGNa/dL3vbLKgi4Tri8WbA2EOAmaAhAvQraYu42kcIG!Hlrs7ipMJcc5c0uTLKgCvw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 02:13:00 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nntp2.giganews.com!nntp3.giganews.com!news5.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26114 > > By contrast, names with English elements, especially Hobbit-names > > like Hardbottle and Bywater, and place-names like the Misty > > Mountains or the River Loudwater, would have to be translated to > > equivalents in the target language. > > Interesting. Any idea on what to do with languages with different > alphabets? Phonetic spelling? Something like. Language experts have huge books of guidelines for transliteration of foreign names and words that they use when translating or transcribing works. ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Reincarnation of Elves(Welcome back Steuard!) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 09:47:26 -0700 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <8n1k5.10292$gW5.667520@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3990CC92.B264EBA5@erols.com> <7onk5.4968$4T.287146@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.22.b1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 20 Aug 2000 16:44:29 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!xfer13.netnews.com!netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:26187 "Jonas Thorell" wrote: >Stan Brown wrote: > >[Letters] > >> >I tried to get a copy of it a couple of months ago but that seemed >> >to be impossible (: > >> I'm surprised. Have you tried ? I did just >> now, and there are several modestly-priced copies on offer from UK >> booksellers. I can understand you wouldn't want to ship a copy >> across the Atlantic, but I assume that shipping within the EU is not >> a major difficulty. > >No, that wouldn't be a difficulty but I'm a bit old-fashioned when it comes >to books...I like to be able to browse around to see if it's worth >the money before I make up my mind. Therefore, I prefer a old-fashioned >book-store. I'm not that much of a Tolkien-nut to want to own everything >with his name on... > >Well, I basically entered every book-shop I could think of to see if they >had it in store and came up with nothing. Had I had the money I could have >walked away with almost every other book he and Christopher Tolkien has >released including the entire HoME series but not Letters... > >One day perhaps... OK, I'm in the USA so maybe things are a bit different here but ... I had no problem ordering a new hardcover copy from my local university bookstore about six months ago -- and it is out in softcover (same sort of cover as the recently reissued biography). Have you been trying /bookstores/ or /used bookstores/?