From: d_ketchum Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 06:57:55 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 10 Message-ID: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.255.213.197 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Jul 11 06:57:55 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; MSN 2.6; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x68.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 63.255.213.197 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDd_ketchum Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23185 You ever notice that in the stories, Manwe isn't portrayed as being particularly bright or even very effective? Ulmo does the thinking, Aule does the building, and Tulkas does the fighting. Manwe just cries a lot. The most energetic thing he does is blow on Melko's flail (very strange image, this). At any rate, I wonder if Tolkien intended it this way, or if it's just an oversight? Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Message-ID: <396B1616.BBC059C4@gte.net> From: Chris Hoelscher X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 X-Trace: /whjskiAMDaykQic5IU5Cjv7wD8/eWMMo7fZ5A75/cMeFwoYoKrAQVHPJ/0OVHdLp9TbwVXM/78b!wpYoQY9ZoEkOgnowRwTQFMwzAyMJwH3VdMlXVKXRhzVH/Pn6/zRSZ3ioEe8= X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:42:39 GMT Distribution: world Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:42:39 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!paloalto-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23255 d_ketchum wrote: > > You ever notice that in the stories, Manwe isn't portrayed as being > particularly bright or even very effective? in fact - doesn;t Tolkien state that Manwe could not conceive of evil - and so took Melkor at his word after the three ages of chaining - only the others were more wary .... Chris Hoelscher ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 20:39:36 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 12 Message-ID: <8kfm6k$kb$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <396B1616.BBC059C4@gte.net> <8kfla2$roa$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p010.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 963337236 651 212.205.253.10 (11 Jul 2000 17:40:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jul 2000 17:40:36 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!newshub.bart.net!193.211.62.38.MISMATCH!news-feed.nld.sonera.net!newsinternetskywayteltow!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23200 Jim wrote in message news:8kfla2$roa$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk... > Yes manwe's niavaty led to the release of Melkor, which led to the marring > of feanor and the killing of the trees etc. Isn't it unfair to judge someone with the benefit of hindsight? Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Jim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:31:02 -0700 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8kfla2$roa$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <396B1616.BBC059C4@gte.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-25.acyclovir.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news8.svr.pol.co.uk 963336322 28426 62.136.75.153 (11 Jul 2000 17:25:22 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jul 2000 17:25:22 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23211 Yes manwe's niavaty led to the release of Melkor, which led to the marring of feanor and the killing of the trees etc. And he basically doesn't seem to do much except send his eagles somewhere every now and then, and possibly blow back dark smog storms from mordor. Jim D Chris Hoelscher wrote in message <396B1616.BBC059C4@gte.net>... > > >d_ketchum wrote: >> >> You ever notice that in the stories, Manwe isn't portrayed as being >> particularly bright or even very effective? > >in fact - doesn;t Tolkien state that Manwe could not conceive of evil - >and so took Melkor at his word after the three ages of chaining - only >the others were more wary .... > >Chris Hoelscher ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: 11 Jul 2000 23:56:06 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 20 Message-ID: <6uwvis72mh.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 963352566 20725 10.0.3.2 (11 Jul 2000 21:56:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jul 2000 21:56:06 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23271 d_ketchum writes: > You ever notice that in the stories, Manwe isn't portrayed as being > particularly bright or even very effective? Ulmo does the thinking, > Aule does the building, and Tulkas does the fighting. Manwe just cries > a lot. Typical manager. The underlings do the work. He just claims their successes for his own, after doing everything to screw them up. > At any rate, I wonder if Tolkien intended it > this way, or if it's just an oversight? Seems that Tolkien also got the Dilbert thing before Scott Adams. :-) -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: d_ketchum Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 18:20:32 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8kfogt$vfj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <396B1616.BBC059C4@gte.net> <8kfla2$roa$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kfm6k$kb$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.255.214.77 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Jul 11 18:20:32 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; MSN 2.6; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x51.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 63.255.214.77 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDd_ketchum Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.tele.dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!nntp2.giganews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23295 In article <8kfm6k$kb$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>, "Aris Katsaris" wrote: > > Jim wrote in message > news:8kfla2$roa$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk... > > Yes manwe's niavaty led to the release of Melkor, which led to the marring > > of feanor and the killing of the trees etc. > > Isn't it unfair to judge someone with the benefit of hindsight? > But as a "GOD" he's supposed to have foresight (not to mention backbone). Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:17:41 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 24 Message-ID: <8kfvf2$6eu$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <396B1616.BBC059C4@gte.net> <8kfla2$roa$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kfm6k$kb$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kfogt$vfj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o187.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 963346722 6622 212.205.252.187 (11 Jul 2000 20:18:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 11 Jul 2000 20:18:42 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23305 d_ketchum wrote in message news:8kfogt$vfj$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <8kfm6k$kb$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>, > "Aris Katsaris" wrote: > > > > Jim wrote in message > > news:8kfla2$roa$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk... > > > Yes manwe's niavaty led to the release of Melkor, which led to the > marring > > > of feanor and the killing of the trees etc. > > > > Isn't it unfair to judge someone with the benefit of hindsight? > > But as a "GOD" he's supposed to have foresight (not to mention > backbone). He's not a god, he's a Vala. And he's supposed to have foresight but not one he could necessarily control - it's obvious he couldn't foresee that that Melkor's release would be a BAD THING. Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Rick" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Lines: 46 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 20:59:21 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.218.180.221 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 963349161 24.218.180.221 (Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:59:21 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:59:21 EDT Organization: Road Runner Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23332 I don't have the quotation at hand, but at one point in the Silmarillion, Tolkien writes that seldom have the actions of the Valar, when attempting to coerce or persuade the Children of Illuvatar into any given course of action, turned out well. In addition, another post here notes Tolkien mentioning that Manwe had a tendency to misunderstand Melkor, simply because he did not share his failings. One of the weaknesses of 'good' is that it does not always comprehend the nature of 'evil.' Personally, I like to think that Manwe's hesitance is not a lack of foresight, but a symptom of it. He knows that they cannot solve the problem of evil just by going on a rampage and kicking it's ass, even when that evil is the manifest, incarnated sort that Melkor represented. They could not cleanse the world of evil without simultaneously rending the world irreparably, accomplishing a cure as ruinous as the evil. What good is it if the operation is successful but the patient dies? To the extent Manwe realized that they could not simply outlaw evil, what *could* he have done? He had to make the evil endurable, had to preserve the world so that it could fulfill the purposes of Eru. Eru didn't silence Melkor's music, didn't just 'break the instrument of discord', he blended it into his greater music, turned it to the greater glory of the Theme, despite Melkor's intent. To the extent Manwe saw that as his task as well, I am more sympathetic towards his actions, and his hesitations. "d_ketchum" wrote in message news:8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > You ever notice that in the stories, Manwe isn't portrayed as being > particularly bright or even very effective? Ulmo does the thinking, > Aule does the building, and Tulkas does the fighting. Manwe just cries > a lot. The most energetic thing he does is blow on Melko's flail (very > strange image, this). At any rate, I wonder if Tolkien intended it > this way, or if it's just an oversight? > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ###### From: mnkohrz@gateway.net (Mnkohrz) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 12 Jul 2000 02:07:21 GMT References: <8kfm6k$kb$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> Organization: http://www.compuserve.com Message-ID: <20000711220721.23379.00000013@ng-fz1.news.gateway.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23333 >Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? >From: "Aris Katsaris" katsaris@otenet.gr >Date: 07/11/2000 12:39 PM Central Daylight Time >Jim wrote in message >news:8kfla2$roa$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk... >> Yes manwe's niavaty led to the release of Melkor, which led to the marring of feanor and the killing of the trees etc. > >Isn't it unfair to judge someone with the benefit of hindsight? > >Aris Katsaris Hindsight? I thought we were talking about (anmong other things) Manwe's judgment of an enemy who had already destroyed the Pillars - and the Valar's original home - at his first opportunity. I think that qualifies as a failure to learn from experience rather than lack of foresight. Mnkohrz ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:59:30 -0400 Lines: 20 Message-ID: <396BDF0A.FB2827DA@erols.com> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6uwvis72mh.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: /WADFXjQo5xC7pr/476a7lkYxDGNvvFOP1y8fjzmy/8= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jul 2000 03:12:09 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23279 Neil Franklin wrote: > > You ever notice that in the stories, Manwe isn't portrayed as being > > particularly bright or even very effective? Ulmo does the thinking, > > Aule does the building, and Tulkas does the fighting. Manwe just cries > > a lot. > > Typical manager. The underlings do the work. He just claims their > successes for his own, after doing everything to screw them up. > > Seems that Tolkien also got the Dilbert thing before Scott Adams. :-) I wonder if Manwë had pointy hair? -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 22:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 10 Message-ID: <7165-396BDF21-8@storefull-256.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAvx/VGbr8pnSAdyASDr0tQsgPF7YCFFfZtbRVQDJRwcWg0HUxxoqnzvZi Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23281 d_ketchum wrote: >You ever notice that in the stories, >Manwe isn't portrayed as being >particularly bright or even very effective? Manwe is a naive wimp. --Dave ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:05:08 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 11 Message-ID: <7164-396BE064-28@storefull-256.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <8kfogt$vfj$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhQXwfJ5+3KzYREvS8S68v+B7BNPWgIVAKRPhxLuZuJUA7yEH0KtfRFMkI/8 Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23283 d_ketchum wrote: >But as a "GOD" he's supposed to have >foresight (not to mention backbone). Manwe wasn't always a god. In BoLT and earlier versions of the Silmarillion, he was. However, he was just a Vala by the time the texts used to write the published Silmarillion were written. --Dave ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:06:49 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 10 Message-ID: <7163-396BE0C9-84@storefull-256.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <8kfvf2$6eu$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAuAhUAx2okROqJwOlzBSaDpBPBXtvMLJACFQCJO7UFLon9uBi0Cn8zjZAxA8c/8w== Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.tele.dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23285 Aris Katsaris wrote: >it's obvious he couldn't foresee that that >Melkor's release would be a BAD >THING. And that's why he's a piss poor leader. --Dave ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 50 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 963384601 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 12 Jul 2000 01:50:01 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 01:50:01 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 06:50:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23282 Quoth d_ketchum : > You ever notice that in the stories, Manwe isn't portrayed as being > particularly bright or even very effective? A very good question... but one that Tolkien actually addressed (though relatively few have seen it) in his essay "_Osanwe-kenta_: Enquiry into the Communication of Thought", which was published in Vinyar Tengwar #39 (available for just $2 in the US, I believe), and is one of my absolute favorite Tolkien essays (it's associated with the longer essay "Quendi and Eldar" published in _The War of the Jewels_, and is fairly high on my personal "canonicity scale"). Anyway, after that long introduction, I'll quote a relevant fragment; I do encourage any and all serious Tolkien scholars to get themselves a copy, as the whole essay is great. If we speak last of the "folly" of Manwe and the weakness and unwariness of the Valar, let us beware how we judge. In the histories, indeed, we may be amazed and grieved to read how (seemingly) Melkor deceived and cozened others, and how even Manwe appears at times almost a simpleton compared with him... How otherwise would you have it? Should Manwe and the Valar meet secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? Can hate overcome hate? ... Thus the merciless will ever count on mercy, and the liars make use of truth; for if mercy and truth are withheld from the cruel and the lying, they have ceased to be honoured. There is a great deal more of this in the essay in question, but we have already seen here the germ of the idea that the full discussion develops: even though the good may expect treachery, they cease to be good if they are unfaithful in turn, or if they deny others the chance to repent (no matter how corrupt they may seem). This may address at least some of the apparent simplicity of Manwe. I think that your summary "Ulmo does the thinking, Aule does the building, and Tulkas does the fighting" misses out on quite a lot. As one specific example, Manwe does seem to be the final judge and arbiter in serious matters, and there may be rather a lot to being "Elder King" that we never see simply because the Elves were not aware of it or did not understand it well enough to record. He also seems to be the primary conduit for Eru's will to be made known to the Valar (admittedly a passive rather than active role, but almost certainly "earned" on some level). In short, I'd agree that Manwe often looks pretty dumb, but I think that more careful consideration makes it quite reasonable that he deserves his position. Steuard Jensen ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue Ribbon Commission) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 23:53:01 -0700 Organization: Collective against Consensual Sanity Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!c191.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23327 / How otherwise would you have it? Should Manwe and the Valar meet / secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more / lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? / Can hate overcome hate? ... Thus the merciless will ever count on / mercy, and the liars make use of truth; for if mercy and truth are / withheld from the cruel and the lying, they have ceased to be / honoured. "...In his situation he was not a subordinate, but the authority on the spot; and he was responsible for all the men under him, not to throw away their lives except for one object, the defence of the realm against an implacable foe..." -- CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 Now a text site map http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/cacs/ pretty? http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/5079/ :)-free zone. Cthulu in '00: .../cacs/politics.html ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:04:42 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8kh8so$qbr$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8kfvf2$6eu$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <7163-396BE0C9-84@storefull-256.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p025.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 963389144 27003 212.205.253.25 (12 Jul 2000 08:05:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jul 2000 08:05:44 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23309 David Sulger wrote in message news:7163-396BE0C9-84@storefull-256.iap.bryant.webtv.net... > Aris Katsaris wrote: > > >it's obvious he couldn't foresee that that > >Melkor's release would be a BAD > >THING. > > And that's why he's a piss poor leader. Could *you* foresee it, buddy? Without the benefit of hindsight? Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:09:43 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 51 Message-ID: <8kh964$qgh$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8kfm6k$kb$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <20000711220721.23379.00000013@ng-fz1.news.gateway.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p025.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 963389444 27153 212.205.253.25 (12 Jul 2000 08:10:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jul 2000 08:10:44 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23303 Mnkohrz wrote in message news:20000711220721.23379.00000013@ng-fz1.news.gateway.net... > >Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? > >From: "Aris Katsaris" katsaris@otenet.gr > >Date: 07/11/2000 12:39 PM Central Daylight Time > > >Jim wrote in message > >news:8kfla2$roa$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk... > >> Yes manwe's niavaty led to the release of Melkor, which led to the marring > of feanor and the killing of the trees etc. > > > >Isn't it unfair to judge someone with the benefit of hindsight? > > > >Aris Katsaris > > Hindsight? I thought we were talking about (anmong other things) Manwe's > judgment of an enemy who had already destroyed the Pillars - and the Valar's > original home - at his first opportunity. Yes, he had destroyed a lot of inanimate objects. But had Melkor had the chance to exhibit malice towards the Children of Iluvatar? Not, to the Valar's knowledge. I don't think they even knew about the Orcs at the time. The elves certainly didn't. How long a prison term would you give to Melkor for destroying the Valar's residence? > I think that qualifies as a failure > to learn from experience rather than lack of foresight. In his experience there were good Maiar who were seduced by evil and later turned back to good, like Osse. You haven't given me a reason on why that couldn't happen to Morgoth. Even Tolkien says that there was once a moment of indecision when Morgoth strove with himself and failed to repent. Therefore at a time Morgoth was capable of repentance - and as far as Manwe could tell (without the benefit of hindsight) he was still capable of a lot of good, and it would be wrong out of their anger for his bad deed to prevent him from so exhibiting it, since it could help them all. Aris Katsaris ###### Message-ID: <396C81E5.4D8630EA@yahoo.com> From: Opal Drake Reply-To: opalSPAMdrake@yahooBLOCK.com Organization: Left Wing Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:32:58 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.69.130.76 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: sea-read.news.verio.net 963412378 206.69.130.76 (Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:32:58 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 14:32:58 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sea-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23272 Steuard Jensen wrote: [deleted] > In short, I'd agree that Manwe often looks pretty dumb, but I think > that more careful consideration makes it quite reasonable that he > deserves his position. Well, I think part of the problem is judging Manwe by human standards. Manwe is, after all, an angelic sort of being, and has communed with Eru in person. I suppose it would be far easier for him to consistently adhere to the principles of truth and mercy more than any human could, who has never seen or spoken to Eru, and who witnesses evil acts early on in life. Manwe has the benefit of immortal perspective, and has an easier time of realizing the long-term truth of mercy and forgiveness. Life for humanity can seem Hobbesian sometimes: "nasty, brutish, and short". This wold make Manwe's actions seem incomprehensible and inhuman, leading some to think Manwe foolish or stupid, but only because those who think that way are failing to see the forest for the trees, as it were. ****************************************************** The Opal Dragon To E-mail me, remove 'SPAM BLOCK' from return address. ###### From: buhrger@ecn.ab.ca () Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: 12 Jul 2000 08:55:42 -0700 Organization: Edmonton Community Network Lines: 20 Message-ID: <396c86ee@ecn.ab.ca> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet.edmonton.ab.ca X-Trace: newsfeed.sas.ab.ca 963413848 20762 198.161.206.2 (12 Jul 2000 14:57:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@sas.ab.ca NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jul 2000 14:57:28 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2.6] X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.161.206.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!sas.ab.ca!ecn.ab.ca!buhrger Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23331 Steuard Jensen (sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu) quoted JRRT: : How otherwise would you have it? Should Manwe and the Valar meet : secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more : lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? : Can hate overcome hate? ... Thus the merciless will ever count on : mercy, and the liars make use of truth; for if mercy and truth are : withheld from the cruel and the lying, they have ceased to be : honoured. what a great bit from JRRT! reminds me of tao te ching chapter 49. ajb -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Andrew Buhr buhrger@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Savour the Irony! buhra@infinity.gmcc.ab.ca http://freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/~buhrger ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 12:34:53 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <396B1616.BBC059C4@gte.net> <8kfla2$roa$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kfm6k$kb$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.cc.d5 X-Server-Date: 12 Jul 2000 16:34:16 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23341 Aris Katsaris wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Jim wrote in message >news:8kfla2$roa$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk... >> Yes manwe's niavaty led to the release of Melkor, which led to the marring >> of feanor and the killing of the trees etc. > >Isn't it unfair to judge someone with the benefit of hindsight? Perhaps, but remember that the Valar also had that same hindsight. By the time they entered into Arda, though they might have forgotten some details of the Music of the Ainur they had not forgotten its general sweep. Example: they knew that Elves and then Men were coming, but not exactly where or when. The fact that Melkor has marred the whole Music was not a mere detail that the Valar might have been expected to forget. The Ainur *knew* what Melkor was. While they might have hoped for his cure, they surely were naive to be fooled again and again by his sham repentance, especially after he had set up Utumno. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: 12 Jul 2000 21:13:57 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 97 Message-ID: <6uu2dv2mbu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 963429237 929 10.0.3.2 (12 Jul 2000 19:13:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jul 2000 19:13:57 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23348 sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: > Quoth d_ketchum : > > You ever notice that in the stories, Manwe isn't portrayed as being > > particularly bright or even very effective? > > How otherwise would you have it? Should Manwe and the Valar meet > secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more > lies? They should meet secrecy with open demonstration of their policy (what ever it is), treachery with holding together (in whatever they do) and lies with saying truthfully what they think (whatever it is). None of these preclude an active policy against Melkor, not even destroying him. > If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? Why not? If he does not give others rights (as adequately demonstrated) then why should they give him rights? To everyone what they have earned themselves. Failling to do this all the time does not make a good reason for net even attempting to do it in some cases. > Can hate overcome hate? No need to hate, to act against an criminal. Just an intention to protect innocent victims. If you stop an murderer who is just about to attempt murder, by killing him, that does not require hate on your part. > ... Thus the merciless will ever count on > mercy, and the liars make use of truth; Exactly. The consequence of an brain-dead policy that rewards crime. > for if mercy and truth are > withheld from the cruel and the lying, they have ceased to be > honoured. And why should cruel and lying people be given honour? They do not give to their victims. Honour those that return honour, by helping them against the cruel. > develops: even though the good may expect treachery, they cease to be > good if they are unfaithful in turn, No need to be unfaithfull. Rather one to have an clear declared policy and hold to it. OTOH letting an mass murderer go around is definitely unfaithfull to the job of being guardians of the children, which is what the Valar were appointed to be. > or if they deny others the chance > to repent (no matter how corrupt they may seem). Sacrificing millions of those you were sent to protect to give one failled guardian a chance he may not even make use of? Seems a bit stupid. Erm, make that _very_ stupid. > This may address at least some of the apparent simplicity of Manwe. It at least changes the reason from "short sighted" to "incapable of facing that life sometimes requires tough decisions". Makes him an even worse leader, actually. > He also seems > to be the primary conduit for Eru's will to be made known to the Valar > (admittedly a passive rather than active role, but almost certainly > "earned" on some level). Or simply selected at random by Eru. > In short, I'd agree that Manwe often looks pretty dumb, but I think > that more careful consideration makes it quite reasonable that he > deserves his position. He doesn't seem to. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 07:22:44 -0400 Lines: 13 Message-ID: <396C5502.27AB2D9E@erols.com> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: A6Q5GqqbhQTStAeSiw2za7P+XKmZGadFu99nTV9Zz2E= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jul 2000 01:45:42 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23349 Steuard Jensen wrote: Hear, hear! > Steuard Jensen Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight Elbereth Gilthoniel! ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:31:18 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 34 Message-ID: <8kikkk$dk4$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6uu2dv2mbu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o177.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 963433940 13956 212.205.252.177 (12 Jul 2000 20:32:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jul 2000 20:32:20 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23364 Neil Franklin wrote in message news:6uu2dv2mbu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch... > > No need to be unfaithfull. Rather one to have an clear declared policy > and hold to it. > > OTOH letting an mass murderer go around is definitely unfaithfull to > the job of being guardians of the children, which is what the Valar > were appointed to be. How many had Morgoth murdered at the time, as far as the Valar's knew? Answer: Zero. Even the US law system doesn't have life imprisonment as punishment for enviromental destruction, as far as I know. > > or if they deny others the chance > > to repent (no matter how corrupt they may seem). > > Sacrificing millions of those you were sent to protect to give one > failled guardian a chance he may not even make use of? A reformed Melkor could have help more than any other in healing the wounds he had caused - all would profit from that, not just Melkor. I really don't understand this anti-Manwe obsession that people have. Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:34:24 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 42 Message-ID: <8kikqe$dme$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8kifvt$j79$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o177.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 963434126 14030 212.205.252.177 (12 Jul 2000 20:35:26 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jul 2000 20:35:26 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23375 Jim wrote in message news:8kifvt$j79$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk... > > Steuard Jensen wrote in message ... > > [snip] > > If we speak last of the "folly" of Manwe and the weakness and > > unwariness of the Valar, let us beware how we judge. In the > > histories, indeed, we may be amazed and grieved to read how > > (seemingly) Melkor deceived and cozened others, and how even Manwe > > appears at times almost a simpleton compared with him... > > > > How otherwise would you have it? Should Manwe and the Valar meet > > secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more > > lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? > > Can hate overcome hate? ... Thus the merciless will ever count on > > mercy, and the liars make use of truth; for if mercy and truth are > > withheld from the cruel and the lying, they have ceased to be > > honoured. > [snip] > > Contrast Manwe's mercy with Melkor against the 'One strike and your out' > policy that leaves Feanor in the halls of Mandos forever. Nonsense. It's nowhere said that Mandos forced Feanor to remain always in the halls of Mandos. Many spitits remained there out of pride or other reasons. And Feanor had caused the death of more Children of Iluvatar than Morgoth had at the time of his first capture. > A serious lack of mercy on one lead astray by lies, and not inherently evil > like Melkor. Melkor was no more inherently evil than Manwe was. Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <396B1616.BBC059C4@gte.net> Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Lines: 18 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:57:08 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.97.84 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 963438919 212.151.97.84 (Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:55:19 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 23:55:19 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23398 Chris Hoelscher hath written: > >d_ketchum wrote: >> >> You ever notice that in the stories, Manwe isn't portrayed as being >> particularly bright or even very effective? > >in fact - doesn;t Tolkien state that Manwe could not conceive of evil - >and so took Melkor at his word after the three ages of chaining - only >the others were more wary .... Perhaps Manwë simply kept the Undying Lands the way they should be by his purity of thought, his own moral perfection? Öjevind ###### From: "Jim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 20:18:47 -0700 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8kifvt$j79$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-175.iowa.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news6.svr.pol.co.uk 963429181 19689 62.137.66.175 (12 Jul 2000 19:13:01 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jul 2000 19:13:01 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23365 Steuard Jensen wrote in message ... [snip] > If we speak last of the "folly" of Manwe and the weakness and > unwariness of the Valar, let us beware how we judge. In the > histories, indeed, we may be amazed and grieved to read how > (seemingly) Melkor deceived and cozened others, and how even Manwe > appears at times almost a simpleton compared with him... > > How otherwise would you have it? Should Manwe and the Valar meet > secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more > lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? > Can hate overcome hate? ... Thus the merciless will ever count on > mercy, and the liars make use of truth; for if mercy and truth are > withheld from the cruel and the lying, they have ceased to be > honoured. [snip] Contrast Manwe's mercy with Melkor against the 'One strike and your out' policy that leaves Feanor in the halls of Mandos forever. A serious lack of mercy on one lead astray by lies, and not inherently evil like Melkor. Jim D ###### From: "Jim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 01:56:22 -0700 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 57 Message-ID: <8kj3p4$4ra$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8kifvt$j79$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kikqe$dme$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-136.indium.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk 963449444 4970 62.136.40.136 (13 Jul 2000 00:50:44 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jul 2000 00:50:44 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23370 Aris Katsaris wrote in message <8kikqe$dme$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>... > >Jim wrote in message >news:8kifvt$j79$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk... >> >> Steuard Jensen wrote in message ... >> >> [snip] >> > If we speak last of the "folly" of Manwe and the weakness and >> > unwariness of the Valar, let us beware how we judge. In the >> > histories, indeed, we may be amazed and grieved to read how >> > (seemingly) Melkor deceived and cozened others, and how even Manwe >> > appears at times almost a simpleton compared with him... >> > >> > How otherwise would you have it? Should Manwe and the Valar meet >> > secrecy with subterfuge, treachery with falsehood, lies with more >> > lies? If Melkor would usurp their rights, should they deny his? >> > Can hate overcome hate? ... Thus the merciless will ever count on >> > mercy, and the liars make use of truth; for if mercy and truth are >> > withheld from the cruel and the lying, they have ceased to be >> > honoured. >> [snip] >> >> Contrast Manwe's mercy with Melkor against the 'One strike and your out' >> policy that leaves Feanor in the halls of Mandos forever. > >Nonsense. It's nowhere said that Mandos forced Feanor to remain always >in the halls of Mandos. Many spitits remained there out of pride or other >reasons. Its said in HoME so I remember someone saying. He's not allowed out until the final battle when Melkor will return too, or something like that. At least I think I heard it mentioned. >And Feanor had caused the death of more Children of Iluvatar than >Morgoth had at the time of his first capture. Valid point, although there were no children before Melkors capture. >> A serious lack of mercy on one lead astray by lies, and not inherently >evil >> like Melkor. > >Melkor was no more inherently evil than Manwe was. Eru created Melkor and he made dischord in the music, and did as much nasty stuff as possible without anyone encouraging him. That seems pretty inherently evil to me. Jim D ###### From: "Jim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 02:01:35 -0700 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 20 Message-ID: <8kj42k$4up$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6uu2dv2mbu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8kikkk$dk4$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-136.indium.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk 963449748 5081 62.136.40.136 (13 Jul 2000 00:55:48 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jul 2000 00:55:48 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23374 Aris Katsaris wrote in message <8kikkk$dk4$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>... >Even the US law system doesn't have life imprisonment as punishment >for enviromental destruction, as far as I know. No, but you can get life imprisonment for causing nuclear explosions. The things that Melkor did are easily as bad as that. >I really don't understand this anti-Manwe obsession that people >have. Its basically because he's lame :) Jim D ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:28:48 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 56 Message-ID: <8kk26g$1qd$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8kifvt$j79$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kikqe$dme$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kj3p4$4ra$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p215.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 963480592 1869 212.205.253.215 (13 Jul 2000 09:29:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jul 2000 09:29:52 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23358 Jim wrote in message news:8kj3p4$4ra$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk... > > Aris Katsaris wrote in message <8kikqe$dme$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>... > > > >Jim wrote in message > >news:8kifvt$j79$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk... > >> > >> Contrast Manwe's mercy with Melkor against the 'One strike and your out' > >> policy that leaves Feanor in the halls of Mandos forever. > > > >Nonsense. It's nowhere said that Mandos forced Feanor to remain always > >in the halls of Mandos. Many spitits remained there out of pride or other > >reasons. > > > Its said in HoME so I remember someone saying. > He's not allowed out until the final battle when Melkor will return too, or > something like that. > At least I think I heard it mentioned. > > >And Feanor had caused the death of more Children of Iluvatar than > >Morgoth had at the time of his first capture. > > Valid point, although there were no children before Melkors capture. Exactly. :-) (Actually not precisely, there were children and Melkor had captured and probably killed some, though the Valar probably didn't know that yet. Still, he must have killed fewer at the time than Feanor had, even with the most generous estimations of the Alqualonde and Helcaraxe incidents...) > >> A serious lack of mercy on one lead astray by lies, and not inherently > >evil > >> like Melkor. > > > >Melkor was no more inherently evil than Manwe was. > > Eru created Melkor and he made dischord in the music, and did as much nasty > stuff as possible without anyone encouraging him. > That seems pretty inherently evil to me. Excuse me, but what's the meaning of "inherently"? Since Manwe and Melkor were once the same in the thought of Iluvatar how could one be inherently something that the other isn't? Aris Katsaris ###### From: Ian McDonald Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:17:35 +0100 Organization: University of Durham, Durham, UK. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <396D973F.C5ED4875@dur.ac.uk> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <396B1616.BBC059C4@gte.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: edsb18.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,zh Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23431 "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > Perhaps Manwë simply kept the Undying Lands the way they should be by his > purity of thought, his own moral perfection? > Wasn't that more Elbereth's (Manwe's wife I believe) line of work ? -- Ian McDonald ***** " In any logical system sufficiently complex to be interesting, there must be statements that are true but unproveable" -- Kurt Godel ###### From: "Robin Lim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Lines: 16 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: <6eib5.66140$7I1.1016209@news1.rdc2.on.home.com> Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 12:03:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.64.182.15 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc2.on.home.com 963489794 24.64.182.15 (Thu, 13 Jul 2000 05:03:14 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 05:03:14 PDT Organization: @Home Network Canada Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!feeder.via.net!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc2.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23404 "d_ketchum" wrote in message news:8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > You ever notice that in the stories, Manwe isn't portrayed as being > particularly bright or even very effective? Ulmo does the thinking, > Aule does the building, and Tulkas does the fighting. Manwe just cries > a lot. The most energetic thing he does is blow on Melko's flail (very > strange image, this). At any rate, I wonder if Tolkien intended it > this way, or if it's just an oversight? I believe he also chooses Saruman (Cirunon) as one of the Istari. Sounds like he's the all-round divine screwup :) Rob ###### X-Originating-Host: 209.130.213.66 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Lines: 15 From: jmeltzer Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <264c0b05.5eeeb687@usw-ex0102-015.remarq.com> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8kifvt$j79$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kikqe$dme$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kj3p4$4ra$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> Bytes: 395 X-Wren-Trace: ePHU/P3ko+miu+j8+KXq/fHC8fv2+qmp9/Lzsqq1sf+vpOG+reC3saum Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 07:00:31 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.15 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 963497670 10.0.2.15 (Thu, 13 Jul 2000 07:14:30 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 07:14:30 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23395 >Its said in HoME so I remember someone saying. He's not allowed >out until the final battle when Melkor will return too, or >something like that. JRRT said that if Manwe takes action, that's the end of the story. ----------------------------------------------------------- Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:09:19 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8kkikf$7ur$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6eib5.66140$7I1.1016209@news1.rdc2.on.home.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p223.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 963497423 8155 212.205.253.223 (13 Jul 2000 14:10:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jul 2000 14:10:23 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23366 Robin Lim wrote in message news:6eib5.66140$7I1.1016209@news1.rdc2.on.home.com... > > "d_ketchum" wrote in message > news:8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > You ever notice that in the stories, Manwe isn't portrayed as being > > particularly bright or even very effective? Ulmo does the thinking, > > Aule does the building, and Tulkas does the fighting. Manwe just cries > > a lot. The most energetic thing he does is blow on Melko's flail (very > > strange image, this). At any rate, I wonder if Tolkien intended it > > this way, or if it's just an oversight? > > I believe he also chooses Saruman (Cirunon) as one of the Istari. Sounds > like he's the all-round divine screwup :) Aule chose Saruman. Manwe chose Gandalf. What an idiot, heh? :-) Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Robin Lim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6eib5.66140$7I1.1016209@news1.rdc2.on.home.com> <8kkikf$7ur$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Lines: 15 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 15:58:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.64.182.15 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc2.on.home.com 963503914 24.64.182.15 (Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:58:34 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 08:58:34 PDT Organization: @Home Network Canada Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cyclone.bc.net!HSNX.atgi.net!feeder.via.net!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc2.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23405 "Aris Katsaris" wrote in message news:8kkikf$7ur$1@newssrv.otenet.gr... > > > > I believe he also chooses Saruman (Cirunon) as one of the Istari. Sounds > > like he's the all-round divine screwup :) > > Aule chose Saruman. Manwe chose Gandalf. What an idiot, heh? :-) Oops. That's right. Should look things up before opening my big mouth. Rob ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 20:08:28 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 20 Message-ID: <8kkt4b$di6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8kifvt$j79$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kikqe$dme$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kj3p4$4ra$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kk26g$1qd$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kkor1$t3h$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p026.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 963508171 13894 212.205.253.26 (13 Jul 2000 17:09:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jul 2000 17:09:31 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23360 Jim wrote in message news:8kkor1$t3h$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk... > > Aris Katsaris wrote in message <8kk26g$1qd$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>... > >Excuse me, but what's the meaning of "inherently"? Since Manwe > >and Melkor were once the same in the thought of Iluvatar how could > >one be inherently something that the other isn't? > > > Where does it say that they are the same? "For Manwe was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Iluvatar, Melkor had been even as he." Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Jim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 17:02:07 -0700 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 32 Message-ID: <8kkor1$t3h$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8kifvt$j79$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kikqe$dme$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kj3p4$4ra$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kk26g$1qd$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-250.phosphorus.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk 963503777 29809 62.136.14.250 (13 Jul 2000 15:56:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jul 2000 15:56:17 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23380 Aris Katsaris wrote in message <8kk26g$1qd$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>... >Excuse me, but what's the meaning of "inherently"? Since Manwe >and Melkor were once the same in the thought of Iluvatar how could >one be inherently something that the other isn't? Where does it say that they are the same? Relevant quotes I have found : " To Melkor among the Ainur had been given the greatest gifts of power and knowledge, and he had a share in all the gifts of his brethren. " "Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor" "But when the Ainur had beheld this habitation in a vision and had seen the Children of Ilúvatar arise therein, then many of the most mighty among them bent all their thought and their desire towards that place. And of these Melkor was the chief, even as he was in the beginning the greatest of the Ainur who took part in the Music." "But Manwë was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Ilúvatar" "Manwë and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Ilúvatar" Brothers does not mean they are the same. My brothers hair is inherently fairer than mine. Jim D ###### From: "Jim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 18:48:09 -0700 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8kkv1q$e4$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8kifvt$j79$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kikqe$dme$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kj3p4$4ra$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kk26g$1qd$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kkor1$t3h$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kkt4b$di6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-97.plutonium.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk 963510138 452 62.136.66.225 (13 Jul 2000 17:42:18 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jul 2000 17:42:18 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23363 Aris Katsaris wrote in message <8kkt4b$di6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>... >> Where does it say that they are the same? > >"For Manwe was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew >that in the beginning, in the thought of Iluvatar, Melkor had been even >as he." My quotes contradict this, and this only refers to the beginning of the thought of Illuvatar, before he finished creating them he must have thought a little different and made them a little different, hence Illuvatar himself saying (rather than Manwe just thinking to himself) : "Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor" So Illuvatar at least considers them to be different. Jim D ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <396B1616.BBC059C4@gte.net> <396D973F.C5ED4875@dur.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Lines: 16 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 20:39:59 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.91.207 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 963513488 212.151.91.207 (Thu, 13 Jul 2000 20:38:08 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 20:38:08 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23477 Ian McDonald hath written: > >"Öjevind Lång" wrote: > >> Perhaps Manwë simply kept the Undying Lands the way they should be by his >> purity of thought, his own moral perfection? >> > >Wasn't that more Elbereth's (Manwe's wife I believe) line of work ? Perhaps the did the job together: the Elder King and the Elder Queen. Öjevind ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 21:59:27 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 48 Message-ID: <8kl3ke$h7c$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8kifvt$j79$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kikqe$dme$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kj3p4$4ra$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kk26g$1qd$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kkor1$t3h$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kkt4b$di6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kkv1q$e4$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p234.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 963514830 17644 212.205.253.234 (13 Jul 2000 19:00:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jul 2000 19:00:30 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23461 Jim wrote in message news:8kkv1q$e4$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk... > > Aris Katsaris wrote in message <8kkt4b$di6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>... > >> Where does it say that they are the same? > > > >"For Manwe was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew > >that in the beginning, in the thought of Iluvatar, Melkor had been even > >as he." > > > My quotes contradict this, No they don't. > and this only refers to the beginning of the > thought of Illuvatar, before he finished creating them he must have thought > a little different and made them a little different, Look, make your own story. But it clearly says that in the thought of Iluvatar Melkor was even as Manwe. "Beginning of the thought" "before he finished creating them" those are phrases and ideas that can't be found anywhere. > hence Illuvatar himself > saying (rather than Manwe just thinking to himself) : It's not just Manwe thinking to himself - it has the words "and he knew" thus the writer supports Manwe's belief as correct. It's not just "and he believed". > "Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest > among them is Melkor" > > So Illuvatar at least considers them to be different. Yes, they are are not any more "in the thought of Iluvatar" and they are different at that time. Besides, the "even as he" seems to refer to ways of thinking/moral potential rather than strength. So strength could be a difference without invalidating the "same as he" comment. Aris Katsaris ###### From: Robert Brady Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 20:51:42 +0100 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6uu2dv2mbu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8kikkk$dk4$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kj42k$4up$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kk2d8$1r3$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-82.arvenien.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news7.svr.pol.co.uk 963518868 5612 62.136.128.210 (13 Jul 2000 20:07:48 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jul 2000 20:07:48 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.16 (i586)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23449 Aris Katsaris wrote: > Jim wrote in message >> No, but you can get life imprisonment for causing nuclear explosions. >> The things that Melkor did are easily as bad as that. > Because a nuclear explosion would kill people I think. Not exactly - killing people due to nuking them would be murder. The intent of the Nuclear Explosions (Prohibition and Inspections) Act 1998 is there to ratify the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, a treaty that now only a handful of international terrorist states like Iran, Iraq, North Korea, and the United States have refused to ratify. > Melkor's destruction of Almaren hadn't - and couldn't. Moreover a life > imprisonment meaning 50 or 60 year is different to a life > imprisonment meaning many tens of thousands of years, > as long as Ea exists... And let's not forget, that Melkor was let off for "good behaviour" - he was the first being ever to be treacherous, no-one, however wise could have predicted that, as it had no precedent. -- Robert ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 23:35:48 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 84 Message-ID: <8kl993$jjt$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8kifvt$j79$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kikqe$dme$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kj3p4$4ra$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kk26g$1qd$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kkor1$t3h$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kkt4b$di6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kkv1q$e4$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kl3ke$h7c$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kl83o$5o0$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o103.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 963520611 20093 212.205.252.103 (13 Jul 2000 20:36:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jul 2000 20:36:51 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23460 Jim wrote in message news:8kl83o$5o0$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk... > > Aris Katsaris wrote in message <8kl3ke$h7c$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>... > > >> and this only refers to the beginning of the > >> thought of Illuvatar, before he finished creating them he must have > >thought > >> a little different and made them a little different, > > > >Look, make your own story. But it clearly says that in the thought of > >Iluvatar > >Melkor was even as Manwe. "Beginning of the thought" "before he > >finished creating them" those are phrases and ideas that can't be > >found anywhere. > > > 'in the beginning, in the thought of Iluvatar' > > This means whilst they are in Illuvatars thought, which is surely before > they are actualy created. Since they sprang from his thought, and since this is Eru we are talking about, there's no difference between his thought-that-designed- them and his thought-that-created-them, therefore we can assume that they were created as they had been thought of. IMO. :-) > The quote doesn't preclude the possibility of: > 'slightly after the beginning, Illuvatar changed his mind' > > In between this point and thier creation Illuvatar did something so that > they were not the same. > Those werent quotes from Silm, hence why I didn't put them in quotes. It was > me interpreting quotes. I think the idea of Iluvatar changing his mind is itself a bit absurd... > >> hence Illuvatar himself > >> saying (rather than Manwe just thinking to himself) : > > > >It's not just Manwe thinking to himself - it has the words "and he knew" > >thus > >the writer supports Manwe's belief as correct. It's not just "and he > >believed". > > Its written by Elves isn't it? Illuvatars words carry more weight imo. It's written by Tolkien actually. :-) And since Eru's words don't invalidate the "even as he" comment I don't accept your point. > >> "Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest > >> among them is Melkor" > >> > >> So Illuvatar at least considers them to be different. > > > >Yes, they are are not any more "in the thought of Iluvatar" and they are > >different at that time. > > >Besides, the "even as he" seems to > >refer to ways of thinking/moral potential rather than strength. So strength > >could be a difference without invalidating the "same as he" comment. > > > LOL, so you are arguing that things can be different and the same? I misquoted the second time: I meant "even as he". Moreover Manwe's thoughts certainly concern Melkor's moral quality, not his power level, therefore it would make sense if he was contemplaning only that aspect of Melkor. > The closest imo is 'the same in some attributes' > I think we might have to agree to disagree. So be it... Aris Katsaris ###### From: kmarek@cybercash.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 20:52:27 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8kla63$1sh$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6uu2dv2mbu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.178.186.6 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Jul 13 20:52:27 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x63.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 204.178.186.6 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDcroaker69 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!newspeer1.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23451 In article <6uu2dv2mbu.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: > sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: > > > Quoth d_ketchum : > > for if mercy and truth are > > withheld from the cruel and the lying, they have ceased to be > > honoured. > > And why should cruel and lying people be given honour? They do not > give to their victims. > I think you misunderstood. "Mercy and truth" would cease to be honoured not the "cruel and the lying" Croaker Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 23:00:15 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <396B1616.BBC059C4@gte.net> <396D973F.C5ED4875@dur.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.cf.f2 X-Server-Date: 14 Jul 2000 02:59:32 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23502 Öjevind Lång wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Perhaps the did the job together: the Elder King and the Elder Queen. I thought the latter was Quentin Crisp. (covers head with arms to deflect brickbats) ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 23:03:46 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8kifvt$j79$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kikqe$dme$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kj3p4$4ra$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kk26g$1qd$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kkor1$t3h$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kkt4b$di6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.cf.f2 X-Server-Date: 14 Jul 2000 03:03:04 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23504 Aris Katsaris wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Jim wrote in message >news:8kkor1$t3h$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk... >> Where does it say that they are the same? > >"For Manwe was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew >that in the beginning, in the thought of Iluvatar, Melkor had been even >as he." I feel as though I'm overhearing the Council of Nicea in the year 300-something, arguing about homoousion (of the same substance) versus homoiousion (of a similar substance). "Even as he" seems to this native English speaker to mean "very much like him" but not "the same". I can't prove that "the same" is wrong, but that interpretation does seem inconsistent with everything else we know about the two greatest of the Ainur who entered Arda. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue Ribbon Commission) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 20:48:11 -0700 Organization: Collective against Consensual Sanity Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <396B1616.BBC059C4@gte.net> <396D973F.C5ED4875@dur.ac.uk> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!c164.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23489 / >Perhaps the did the job together: the Elder King and the Elder Queen. / / I thought the latter was Quentin Crisp. Didn't he write a book? The Naked World Architect or something? -- CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 Now a text site map http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/cacs/ pretty? http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/5079/ :)-free zone. Cthulu in '00: .../cacs/politics.html ###### From: "Jim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 21:22:47 -0700 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 77 Message-ID: <8kl83o$5o0$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8kifvt$j79$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kikqe$dme$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kj3p4$4ra$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kk26g$1qd$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kkor1$t3h$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kkt4b$di6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kkv1q$e4$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kl3ke$h7c$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-5.aftercomers.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk 963519416 5888 62.136.99.5 (13 Jul 2000 20:16:56 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jul 2000 20:16:56 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23464 Aris Katsaris wrote in message <8kl3ke$h7c$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>... > >Jim wrote in message >news:8kkv1q$e4$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk... >> >> Aris Katsaris wrote in message <8kkt4b$di6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>... >> >> Where does it say that they are the same? >> > >> >"For Manwe was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew >> >that in the beginning, in the thought of Iluvatar, Melkor had been even >> >as he." >> >> >> My quotes contradict this, > >No they don't. > They don't in your opinion, they do in mine. >> and this only refers to the beginning of the >> thought of Illuvatar, before he finished creating them he must have >thought >> a little different and made them a little different, > >Look, make your own story. But it clearly says that in the thought of >Iluvatar >Melkor was even as Manwe. "Beginning of the thought" "before he >finished creating them" those are phrases and ideas that can't be >found anywhere. 'in the beginning, in the thought of Iluvatar' This means whilst they are in Illuvatars thought, which is surely before they are actualy created. The quote doesn't preclude the possibility of: 'slightly after the beginning, Illuvatar changed his mind' In between this point and thier creation Illuvatar did something so that they were not the same. Those werent quotes from Silm, hence why I didn't put them in quotes. It was me interpreting quotes. >> hence Illuvatar himself >> saying (rather than Manwe just thinking to himself) : > >It's not just Manwe thinking to himself - it has the words "and he knew" >thus >the writer supports Manwe's belief as correct. It's not just "and he >believed". Its written by Elves isn't it? Illuvatars words carry more weight imo. >> "Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest >> among them is Melkor" >> >> So Illuvatar at least considers them to be different. > >Yes, they are are not any more "in the thought of Iluvatar" and they are >different at that time. >Besides, the "even as he" seems to >refer to ways of thinking/moral potential rather than strength. So strength >could be a difference without invalidating the "same as he" comment. LOL, so you are arguing that things can be different and the same? The closest imo is 'the same in some attributes' I think we might have to agree to disagree. Jim D ###### From: "Jim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 23:14:01 -0700 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 33 Message-ID: <8klek8$65s$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8kifvt$j79$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kikqe$dme$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kj3p4$4ra$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kk26g$1qd$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kkor1$t3h$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kkt4b$di6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kkv1q$e4$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kl3ke$h7c$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kl83o$5o0$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kl993$jjt$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-69.carbon.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk 963526088 6332 62.136.5.69 (13 Jul 2000 22:08:08 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 13 Jul 2000 22:08:08 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23469 Aris Katsaris wrote in message <8kl993$jjt$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>... [snip a fair bit] First I concede that Eru changing his mind is far from ideal. Its more of a suggestion to patch over what I see as an inconsistency between your quote, and my ones. >I misquoted the second time: I meant "even as he". Moreover Manwe's >thoughts certainly concern Melkor's moral quality, not his power level, >therefore it would make sense if he was contemplaning only that >aspect of Melkor. Yes but you were using the quote to support : > >Excuse me, but what's the meaning of "inherently"? Since Manwe > >and Melkor were once the same in the thought of Iluvatar how could > >one be inherently something that the other isn't? Whilst you still say Manwe and Melkor were in the beginning morally equals (with a good supporting quote) you appear to have conceded that Melkor is inherently more powerful. Or are you saying that he somehow became more powerful after being created? And seeing as they were both subject to identical stimuli (unless you consider that they were subjected to these stimuli in different physical places (assuming they can't/didn't both occupy the same piece of space) a significant difference) how did Melkor end up being evil? Is it just because he was mightier that he ended up evil? Jim D ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8kifvt$j79$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kikqe$dme$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kj3p4$4ra$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kk26g$1qd$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kkor1$t3h$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kkt4b$di6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Lines: 33 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 11:53:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.0.62.34 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.mi.home.com 963575594 24.0.62.34 (Fri, 14 Jul 2000 04:53:14 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 04:53:14 PDT Organization: @Home Network Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!diablo.theplanet.net!netnews.com!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.mi.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23484 "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.13d84d184c7fc89a98b3cc@news.mindspring.com... > Aris Katsaris wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Jim wrote in message > >news:8kkor1$t3h$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk... > >> Where does it say that they are the same? > > > >"For Manwe was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew > >that in the beginning, in the thought of Iluvatar, Melkor had been even > >as he." > > I feel as though I'm overhearing the Council of Nicea in the year > 300-something, arguing about homoousion (of the same substance) > versus homoiousion (of a similar substance). > > "Even as he" seems to this native English speaker to mean "very much > like him" but not "the same". I can't prove that "the same" is > wrong, but that interpretation does seem inconsistent with > everything else we know about the two greatest of the Ainur who > entered Arda. I agree that "even as he" does not mean "the same as" or "alike in all things". "Melkor had been even as he" needs to be taken in context. The subject of the sentence indicates that Manwe knew that Melkor had been made free from evil "even as he". Dave ###### Message-ID: <396F28B9.92564D8F@yahoo.com> From: Opal Drake Reply-To: opalSPAMdrake@yahooBLOCK.com Organization: Left Wing Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8kifvt$j79$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kikqe$dme$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kj3p4$4ra$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kk26g$1qd$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kkor1$t3h$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kkt4b$di6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kkv1q$e4$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kl3ke$h7c$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kl83o$5o0$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kl993$jjt$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8klek8$65s$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kli9l$o9j$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:49:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.69.130.8 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: sea-read.news.verio.net 963586163 206.69.130.8 (Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:49:23 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 14:49:23 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sea-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23438 Aris Katsaris wrote: [deleted] > > Whilst you still say Manwe and Melkor were in the beginning morally equals > > (with a good supporting quote) you appear to have conceded that Melkor is > > inherently more powerful. > > Well, now we come back to the meaning of "inherently". I'm not a native > English speaker but I thought it meant something which is an inseparable > part of someone's nature. If I said that Orcs were inherently evil then they > must be evil from birth to death. And likewise with Melkor and Manwe. > > So with that definition I don't consider Melkor inherently more powerful, > since as demonstrated he could lose great part of his power. Just because he lost power does not disprove that he wasn't inherently more powerful *originally*. One might argue that as he spent his power his nature changed, such that the Melkor of earlier days could not be compared to the Melkor of later days. [deleted] -- ****************************************************** The Opal Dragon To E-mail me, remove 'SPAM BLOCK' from return address. ###### From: Ian McDonald Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:04:49 +0100 Organization: University of Durham, Durham, UK. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <396F2C11.20CE755B@dur.ac.uk> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <396B1616.BBC059C4@gte.net> <396D973F.C5ED4875@dur.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: edsb18.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,zh Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.esat.net!news.heanet.ie!server5.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23510 "Öjevind Lång" wrote: > Ian McDonald hath written: > > > >"Öjevind Lång" wrote: > > > >> Perhaps Manwë simply kept the Undying Lands the way they should be by his > >> purity of thought, his own moral perfection? > >> > > > >Wasn't that more Elbereth's (Manwe's wife I believe) line of work ? > > Perhaps the did the job together: the Elder King and the Elder Queen. > > Öjevind What was Tulkas ? The Jack ? -- Ian McDonald ***** " In any logical system sufficiently complex to be interesting, there must be statements that are true but unproveable" -- Kurt Godel ###### Lines: 46 X-Admin: news@aol.com From: lenona321@aol.com (Lenona321) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: 15 Jul 2000 03:43:58 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Message-ID: <20000714234358.03579.00000278@ng-fb1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23537 >/ >Perhaps the did the job together: the Elder King and the Elder Queen. >/ >/ I thought the latter was Quentin Crisp. > >Didn't he write a book? The Naked World Architect or something? Now THAT made me laugh. It's actually "The Naked Civil Servant"(1968) - so named because he was a nude artist's model for 35 years and models worked for government funded art schools. Not a good title as far as he was concerned - since the book was mainly about his tormented life as a punching bag for homophobes (written with no self-pity), he wanted to title it "My Reign in Hell" - but the publishers wouldn't stand for it. Personally, I always felt the title was apt in another way - by his incredible bravery in refusing to stay in the closet in the 1930s, he was performing a civil service - in both senses of the adjective - and he did it so brazenly by wearing makeup when even women didn't wear it, he might as well have been naked in public. His other books are, in order, "How to Have a Life-Style", "Love Made Easy", "Chog: A Gothic Fable", "How to Become a Virgin"(biography part 2), "Doing it With Style"(1981), "The Wit and Wisdom of Quentin Crisp", "Manners From Heaven"(1985), "How to Go to the Movies"(1989), "Quentin Crisp's Book of Quotations", and "Resident Alien" (biography part 3, 1997. He would have titled that "I Serve in Heaven" had things been different - now, sadly, he does. I was at his memorial service in March.). His TV appearances and shorts, besides 4 appearances on Letterman (last time was 1983) include "The Equalizer"(1987), Jay Leno in June of 1993, Calvin Klein's CK1 perfume ads (1993), ads for Impulse perfume and Levi's, and "Red Ribbons" and "Little Red Riding Hood", starring Christina Ricci. His movies are "The Naked Civil Servant"(1975, only in the beginning-it stars John Hurt as Mr. Crisp), "Hamlet"(1976-also starring Helen Mirren), "An Evening With Quentin Crisp"(1979, a video of his one-man show), "The Bride" (1985, as Sting's assistant), "Fatal Attraction"(party scene; he was cut :( ), Sting's video of "Englishman in New York"(yes, Sting DID write the song for him), "The Kissing Booth"( a short with Joe Morton and NY artists), "Resident Alien" (1991, this is a documentary about him), "Orlando" (as Queen Elizabeth I), "Philadelphia"(at the costume party) "Naked in New York"(1994, at the nightclub party), "Desolation Angels" (1995, as a beggar in the first half), "The Celluloid Closet"(as an interviewee), "To Wong Foo: Thanks for Everything, Julie Newmar"(1997, as the pageant judge in the early scenes), and finally, three obscure movies called "The Electric Urn", "Homo Heights", and "American Mod". His website is www.quentincrisp.com. There are 2 others as well. Lenona. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 16:07:35 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 41 Message-ID: <8kpnon$3he$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8kifvt$j79$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kikqe$dme$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kj3p4$4ra$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kk26g$1qd$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kkor1$t3h$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kkt4b$di6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-a073.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 963666519 3630 212.205.240.73 (15 Jul 2000 13:08:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jul 2000 13:08:39 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23538 Dave Lind wrote in message news:KaDb5.36654$fR2.337385@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com... > > > "Stan Brown" wrote in message > news:MPG.13d84d184c7fc89a98b3cc@news.mindspring.com... > > Aris Katsaris wrote in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > > >Jim wrote in message > > >news:8kkor1$t3h$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk... > > >> Where does it say that they are the same? > > > > > >"For Manwe was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew > > >that in the beginning, in the thought of Iluvatar, Melkor had been even > > >as he." > > > > I feel as though I'm overhearing the Council of Nicea in the year > > 300-something, arguing about homoousion (of the same substance) > > versus homoiousion (of a similar substance). > > > > "Even as he" seems to this native English speaker to mean "very much > > like him" but not "the same". I can't prove that "the same" is > > wrong, but that interpretation does seem inconsistent with > > everything else we know about the two greatest of the Ainur who > > entered Arda. > > I agree that "even as he" does not mean "the same as" or "alike in all > things". > > "Melkor had been even as he" needs to be taken in context. The subject of > the sentence indicates that Manwe knew that Melkor had been made free from > evil "even as he". I can easily accept that compromise - after all I had mentioned that passage mainly to support that Melkor was *not* inherently evil. The words of both of you also support that idea... Aris Katsaris ###### Reply-To: "Wolfman" From: "Wolfman" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <396B1616.BBC059C4@gte.net> <396D973F.C5ED4875@dur.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 19:17:34 +0100 Lines: 20 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 NNTP-Posting-Host: da152d135.dialup.callnet0800.com X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: da152d135.dialup.callnet0800.com Message-ID: <3970ab7c@eeyore.callnetuk.com> X-Trace: 15 Jul 2000 19:20:44 GMT, da152d135.dialup.callnet0800.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!peernews!peer.cwci.net!eeyore.callnetuk.com!da152d135.dialup.callnet0800.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23536 Na! He was just an old Queen... };o)~ -- Blessings Wolfman In Wildness is the Preservation of the Earth. "Stan Brown" wrote in message news:MPG.13d84c4d848b28f498b3cb@news.mindspring.com... > Öjevind Lång wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > > >Perhaps the did the job together: the Elder King and the Elder Queen. > > I thought the latter was Quentin Crisp. > > (covers head with arms to deflect brickbats) > ###### From: "Jim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 18:21:24 -0700 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 8 Message-ID: <8kq67a$f2e$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8kifvt$j79$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kikqe$dme$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kj3p4$4ra$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kk26g$1qd$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kkor1$t3h$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kkt4b$di6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kpnon$3he$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-125.tellurium.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk 963681322 15438 62.136.43.125 (15 Jul 2000 17:15:22 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jul 2000 17:15:22 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23540 Maybe 'even as he' could mean as little as that they were both Ainur/Valar. Jim D ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Manwe: A Well-Meaning Moron? Date: Sat, 15 Jul 2000 21:46:19 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 14 Message-ID: <8kqbjq$buk$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8keghf$16p$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8kifvt$j79$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kikqe$dme$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kj3p4$4ra$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kk26g$1qd$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kkor1$t3h$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <8kkt4b$di6$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kpnon$3he$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8kq67a$f2e$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o012.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 963686842 12244 212.205.252.12 (15 Jul 2000 18:47:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 15 Jul 2000 18:47:22 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23583 Jim wrote in message news:8kq67a$f2e$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk... > > Maybe 'even as he' could mean as little as that they were both Ainur/Valar. That's stretching the meaning of the phrase all the way to the breaking point and beyond... :-) Aris Katsaris