Message-ID: <39601B62.B3BD3E99@yahoo.com> From: Opal Drake Reply-To: opalSPAMdrake@yahooBLOCK.com Organization: Left Wing Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: The sinking of Beleriand Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 15 Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 04:48:24 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.69.130.128 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: sea-read.news.verio.net 962599704 206.69.130.128 (Mon, 03 Jul 2000 04:48:24 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 04:48:24 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sea-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22752 Did Tolkien ever go into more detail about Beleriand sinking under the sea? That's a pretty large swath of land to go swimming with the fishes. I have a hard time imagining how the Elves and Men avoided being sucked under. This could not have taken very quickly. I imagine it happened bit by bit, such as Hithlum this year, Doriath a couple years later. And why couldn't the Valar stop it? If they can raise Numenor up out of the ocean, couldn't they somehow prop up ol' Beleriand? -- ****************************************************** The Opal Dragon To E-mail me, remove 'SPAM BLOCK' from return address. ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The sinking of Beleriand Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <39603f17.201322849@news.verio.net> References: <39601B62.B3BD3E99@yahoo.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 15 Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 07:25:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.161 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 962609025 198.172.26.161 (Mon, 03 Jul 2000 07:23:45 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 07:23:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!skynet.be!HSNX.atgi.net!feeder.via.net!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22783 On Mon, 03 Jul 2000 04:48:24 GMT, Opal Drake wrote: >Did Tolkien ever go into more detail about Beleriand sinking under >the sea? That's a pretty large swath of land to go swimming with >the fishes. I have a hard time imagining how the Elves and Men >avoided being sucked under. This could not have taken very quickly. >I imagine it happened bit by bit, such as Hithlum this year, >Doriath a couple years later. And why couldn't the Valar stop it? >If they can raise Numenor up out of the ocean, couldn't they somehow >prop up ol' Beleriand? Because they were the ones sinking it. They smashed Beleriand as an unavoidable consequence of smashing Morgoth. See _Morgoth's Ring_. ###### From: mnkohrz@gateway.net (Mnkohrz) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The sinking of Beleriand Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.gateway.net X-Admin: news@gateway.net Date: 03 Jul 2000 08:35:53 GMT References: <39603f17.201322849@news.verio.net> Organization: http://www.compuserve.com Message-ID: <20000703043553.20065.00000362@ng-fj1.news.gateway.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22857 >Subject: Re: The sinking of Beleriand >From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) >Date: 07/03/2000 2:25 AM Central Daylight Time >>Did Tolkien ever go into more detail about Beleriand sinking under the sea? That's a pretty large swath of land to go swimming with the fishes. I have a hard time imagining how the Elves and Men avoided being sucked under. This could not have taken very quickly. >>I imagine it happened bit by bit, such as Hithlum this year, Doriath a couple years later. And why couldn't the Valar stop it? >>If they can raise Numenor up out of the ocean, couldn't they somehow prop up ol' Beleriand? > >Because they were the ones sinking it. They smashed Beleriand as an >unavoidable consequence of smashing Morgoth. See _Morgoth's Ring_. Actually it was Iluvatar who destroyed it. Most of Beleriand was turned into a desert and parts of it were undoubtedly submerged during the War of Wrath, but Beleriand was not completely submerged until Iluvatar destroyed Numenor a few thousand years later (I thinkapproximately 3,000 yers, but can't find my LOTR in this clutter :) The changes at that time pretty much finished what the Valar and Morgoth had begun. Mnkohrz ###### From: d_ketchum@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The sinking of Beleriand Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 21:45:27 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 11 Message-ID: <8jr1hj$6lt$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <39601B62.B3BD3E99@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.216.16.155 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Jul 03 21:45:27 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 95; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x70.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 150.216.16.155 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDd_ketchum Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22889 In article <39601B62.B3BD3E99@yahoo.com>, opalSPAMdrake@yahooBLOCK.com wrote: > "Did Tolkien ever go into more detail about Beleriand sinking under > the sea? " Those damn U-boats! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue Ribbon Commission) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The sinking of Beleriand Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 20:44:59 -0700 Organization: Collective against Consensual Sanity Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <39601B62.B3BD3E99@yahoo.com> <8jr1hj$6lt$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!c150.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22922 / > "Did Tolkien ever go into more detail about Beleriand sinking under / > the sea? " / / / Those damn U-boats! Uin had boats? -- CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 Now a text site map http://www.tsoft.com/~wyrmwif/cacs/ pretty? http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/5079/ :)-free zone. Cthulu in '00: .../cacs/politics.html ###### From: bnh@chem.ucla.edu (Bruce N. Hietbrink) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The sinking of Beleriand Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 16:40:21 -0700 Organization: UCLA Chemistry Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <39601B62.B3BD3E99@yahoo.com> <8jr1hj$6lt$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!awabi.library.ucla.edu!164.67.43.25!news.ucla.edu!ppc-cam.chem.ucla.edu!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23069 In article , mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue Ribbon Commission) wrote: > / > "Did Tolkien ever go into more detail about Beleriand sinking under > / > the sea? " > / > / > / Those damn U-boats! > > Uin had boats? Ulmo had boats. ###### From: Thomas.Koenig@cologne.de Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The sinking of Beleriand Date: 7 Jul 2000 16:28:38 +0200 Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany Lines: 11 Message-ID: <8k4pem$2d5$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> References: <39601B62.B3BD3E99@yahoo.com> <39603f17.201322849@news.verio.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de 962980118 24565 129.13.201.66 X-Complaints-To: usenet@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!news.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23085 Mark Wells wrote: (the Valar) >smashed Beleriand as an >unavoidable consequence of smashing Morgoth. See _Morgoth's Ring_. I've always been worried about the timing of the sinking of Beleriand. If it sank during the battles, how come there still were Elves and Men left to summon after Morgoth had been overtrhown? If it sank after, how come nobody did anything about it? ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The sinking of Beleriand References: <39603f17.201322849@news.verio.net> <20000703043553.20065.00000362@ng-fj1.news.gateway.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 11 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 963159727 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 09 Jul 2000 11:22:07 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 11:22:07 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 16:22:07 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23104 Quoth mnkohrz@gateway.net (Mnkohrz): > Actually it was Iluvatar who destroyed it. Most of Beleriand > was turned into a desert and parts of it were undoubtedly submerged > during the War of Wrath, but Beleriand was not completely submerged > until Iluvatar destroyed Numenor a few thousand years later This sounds very familliar to me, but I can't think of the source. Where do these details come from? (This certainly makes more sense than the "sank at the end of the first age" notion, anyway.) Steuard Jensen ###### From: mnkohrz@gateway.net (Mnkohrz) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The sinking of Beleriand Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 11 Jul 2000 04:00:34 GMT References: Organization: http://www.compuserve.com Message-ID: <20000711000034.06366.00000096@ng-fo1.news.gateway.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23249 >This sounds very familliar to me, but I can't think of the source. >Where do these details come from? (This certainly makes more sense than the "sank at the end of the first age" notion, anyway.) > Steuard Jensen I based it partly on the canon - the Akallabeth ("and all the coasts and seaward regions of the western world suffered great change and ruin in that time; for the seas invaded the lands, and shores foundered, and ancient isles were drowned, and new isles were uplifted; and hills crumbled and rivers were turned into strange courses.") - and on the"Atlas of Middle Earth" by Karen Wynn Fonstad, particularly her introduction to the Third Age: "When Numenor was toppled and Valinor taken away, great changes were reported - new isles, new hills, drowned coasts. No specific information was given, however, about where the alterations occurred. Logic would suggest that far more upheaval would have been associated with the catastrophic change of the world's being made round after the Downfall of Numenor than with the destruction of Thangorodrim." I agree with this statement. If the breaking of Angband alone was sufficient to submerge Beleriand, then I don't see how any of the victorious elves could have survived; yet we know that they did and that they built numerous fleets of ships in which to return to the West. This would suggest that only certain sections of Beleriand were actually submerged in the War of Wrath. The rest perished when Illuvatar showed the Numenoreans who was really in charge :) Mnkohrz ###### Message-ID: <396B1562.C79AA4F5@gte.net> From: Chris Hoelscher X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The sinking of Beleriand References: <20000711000034.06366.00000096@ng-fo1.news.gateway.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 X-Trace: /KiKeTBpDxSGBs1NLutFgmquhKPQWuu60P8AZb6RM/pRT25zxBpPQ3oPI87WAOamlNfQzepxSa0Q!NKt5boECJc0vGm515WHYC+QycDb1RU4dZP019x8hyztpuyFeK+2x0r6zKwA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:39:41 GMT Distribution: world Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 12:39:41 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!paloalto-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23257 If the breaking of Angband alone was > sufficient to submerge Beleriand, then I don't see how any of the victorious > elves could have survived; yet we know that they did and that they built > numerous fleets of ships in which to return to the West. This would suggest > that only certain sections of Beleriand were actually submerged in the War of > Wrath. The rest perished when Illuvatar showed the Numenoreans who was really > in charge :) > > Mnkohrz it had always been my opinion that the sinking of Beleriand occurred GRADUALLY (so to speak - perhaps over 10-15 years) so that any elves could move to higher ground before they felt "the earth move under my feet" i thought it was written somewhere that it was the magnitutde of the "magical" battles that sunk beleriand, NOT an overt act of will that sunk it (as opposed to Numenor, where it WAS an overt act of will that sunk it!) Chris Hoelscher ###### From: mnkohrz@gateway.net (Mnkohrz) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The sinking of Beleriand Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.gateway.net X-Admin: news@gateway.net Date: 13 Jul 2000 08:37:47 GMT References: <8k4pem$2d5$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> Organization: http://www.compuserve.com Message-ID: <20000713043747.23677.00000354@ng-fz1.news.gateway.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23419 >Subject: Re: The sinking of Beleriand >From: Thomas.Koenig@cologne.de >Date: 07/07/2000 9:28 AM Central Daylight Time > >I've always been worried about the timing of the sinking of Beleriand. If it sank during the battles, how come there still were Elves and Men left to summon after Morgoth had been overtrhown? If it sank after, how come nobody did anything about it? It seems fairly obvious to me that Beleriand could not have been completely submerged until the downfall of Numenor. Numerous cities and harbors - the Forlond and Umbar to name but two - appear both in the Second and Third Age which, if Beleriand had already been submerged, should have been destroyed by the catastrophic changes that occurred at the Downfall. It's logical to assume that the deserted wastes of Beleriand bore the brunt of the fury, so to speak, and thus spared the Grey Havens and other areas in ME from worse destruction. Mnkohrz ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The sinking of Beleriand References: <8k4pem$2d5$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> <20000713043747.23677.00000354@ng-fz1.news.gateway.net> Reply-To: coren@spdcc.com Organization: Pigs in Blankets From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Lines: 29 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 15:36:54 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.237.113 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 963502614 24.128.237.113 (Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:36:54 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 11:36:54 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23415 In article <20000713043747.23677.00000354@ng-fz1.news.gateway.net>, Mnkohrz wrote: > >>Subject: Re: The sinking of Beleriand >>From: Thomas.Koenig@cologne.de >>Date: 07/07/2000 9:28 AM Central Daylight Time >> > >>I've always been worried about the timing of the sinking of Beleriand. If it >sank during the battles, how come there still were Elves and Men left to summon >after Morgoth had been overtrhown? If it sank after, how come nobody did >anything about it? > > It seems fairly obvious to me that Beleriand could not have been >completely submerged until the downfall of Numenor. Numerous cities and >harbors - the Forlond and Umbar to name but two - appear both in the Second >and Third Age which, if Beleriand had already been submerged, should have been >destroyed by the catastrophic changes that occurred at the Downfall. It's >logical to assume that the deserted wastes of Beleriand bore the brunt of the >fury, so to speak, and thus spared the Grey Havens and other areas in ME from >worse destruction. I think you have your Ages confused; the drowning of Beleriand occurred at the end of the First Age, that of Númenor near the end of the Second. Umbar and Forlond were way further east, and both existed at the time of LotR. -- ---Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)------- "The optative passive rocks!" --Jeffrey William McKeough ###### From: mnkohrz@gateway.net (Mnkohrz) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The sinking of Beleriand Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 13 Jul 2000 16:35:35 GMT References: Organization: http://www.compuserve.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000713123535.18239.00000484@ng-cm1.news.gateway.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23418 >Subject: Re: The sinking of Beleriand >From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) >Date: 07/13/2000 10:36 AM Central Daylight Time >> It seems fairly obvious to me that Beleriand could not have been completely submerged until the downfall of Numenor. Numerous cities and harbors - the Forlond and Umbar to name but two - appear both in the Second and Third Age which, if Beleriand had already been submerged, should have been destroyed by the catastrophic changes that occurred at the Downfall. It's logical to assume that the deserted wastes of Beleriand bore the brunt of the fury, so to speak, and thus spared the Grey Havens and other areas in ME from worse destruction. > >I think you have your Ages confused; the drowning of Beleriand occurred at the end of the First Age, that of Númenor near the end of the Second. Umbar and Forlond were way further east, and both existed at the time of LotR. >---Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)------- > "The optative passive rocks!" --Jeffrey William McKeough I know the timeline, Robert. You misunderstood my post. I argued that if Beleriand had been completely sunk at the end of the First Age as many people seem to assume, then Lindon, Umbar, Dol Amroth and a multitude of other locales should have been utterly destroyed by the catastrophic changes which occurred when Numenor was destroyed. Yet it is clearly stated that Gil-galad befriended Elendil after he was cast up on ME by the storm. (BTW, the Forlond was in Eriador in the Gulf of Lune, not too far from the Grey Havens.) I don't doubt that Beleriand was, for all practical purposes, uninhabitable after the War of Wrath. Perhaps it resembled the wastes of Mordor which would explain why the Valar didn't care if it drowned. I also don't dispute that large sections of it did sink at the end of the First Age - the Numenoreans would have otherwise had to walk quite a way to reach ME :) I'm only saying that just enough remained to buffer Gil-galad and his people from what was the greatest catacylsm since Melkor destroyed the Pillars. Mnkohrz ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The sinking of Beleriand References: <20000713123535.18239.00000484@ng-cm1.news.gateway.net> Reply-To: coren@spdcc.com Organization: Pigs in Blankets From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Lines: 39 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 18:45:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.237.113 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 963513946 24.128.237.113 (Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:45:46 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:45:46 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.cwix.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23492 In article <20000713123535.18239.00000484@ng-cm1.news.gateway.net>, Mnkohrz wrote: > >>> It seems fairly obvious to me that Beleriand could not have been >completely submerged until the downfall of Numenor. Numerous cities and >harbors - the Forlond and Umbar to name but two - appear both in the Second >and Third Age which, if Beleriand had already been submerged, should have been >destroyed by the catastrophic changes that occurred at the Downfall. It's >logical to assume that the deserted wastes of Beleriand bore the brunt of the >fury, so to speak, and thus spared the Grey Havens and other areas in ME from >worse destruction. [me] >>I think you have your Ages confused; the drowning of Beleriand occurred at the >end of the First Age, that of Númenor near the end of the Second. Umbar and >Forlond were way further east, and both existed at the time of LotR. >I know the timeline, Robert. You misunderstood my post. I argued that if >Beleriand had been completely sunk at the end of the First Age as many people >seem to assume, then Lindon, Umbar, Dol Amroth and a multitude of other locales >should have been utterly destroyed by the catastrophic changes which occurred >when Numenor was destroyed. You're right, I did misunderstand; sorry about that. However, I don't believe there's a single solitary word of JRRT's that has ever been published that suggests that anything other than Lindon was left of Beleriand after the end of the First Age. If one insists that everything that happened in Arda has to have a "natural-world" explanation, then yes, you're right, without some sort of buffer the west-facing coasts of Middle-Earth would have suffered much destruction when Númenor sank; but I think requiring supernatural events to have the same consequences they would in the real world is a fallacy. History shows that a large number of the participants in this newsgroup disagree with me on this point. -- ---Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)------- "...and in the Eighth Square we shall be Queens together, and it's all feasting and fun!" --Lewis Carroll, _Through the Looking Glass_