From: raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Fantasy vs. SF (was Arggh). Date: 28 Jun 2000 09:22:57 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <8j5ki8$7bi$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <6064-3956E174-93@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <8j82gr$5p3$2@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: s369625.student.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 962184177 12464 172.20.76.33 (28 Jun 2000 09:22:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jun 2000 09:22:57 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!raka Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22500 On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:01:34 +0100, Alan Graham wrote: The difference between SF and fantasy is quite an interesting question. I can think of no work which does not fit easily into one category or another, nonetheless, the difference is very hard to define. What thoughts have people on it? For my own, see below. >My favourite definition between fantasy and science fiction is that sci-fi >deals with things that could be, while fantasy deals with what could never >be. Even then, though, I think there's good books that blur the distinction. It tend to think of it as SF is "what if ", and fantasy is "let's pretend". The difference is subtle (and probably in the strictest sense, non existent). Still I find that most people who have thought about it agree. Star Wars for example becomes fantasy. A short story called Uebermench! about a world where superman landed in Nazi Germany instead of America is SF. ###### From: Ian McDonald Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. SF (was Arggh). Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 12:13:31 +0100 Organization: University of Durham, Durham, UK. Lines: 12 Message-ID: <3959DDDA.80150B4F@dur.ac.uk> References: <8j5ki8$7bi$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <6064-3956E174-93@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <8j82gr$5p3$2@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: edsb18.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,zh Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!ldn-newsfeed.speedport.net!newsfeed.speedport.net!newsfeed.icl.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22503 > On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:01:34 +0100, > Alan Graham wrote: > > The difference between SF and fantasy is quite an interesting question. I can > think of no work which does not fit easily into one category or another, > nonetheless, the difference is very hard to define. How about 'Walking on Glass' by Iain Banks ? An excellent book, by the way. ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8j5ki8$7bi$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <6064-3956E174-93@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <8j82gr$5p3$2@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. SF (was Arggh). Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:35:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.131 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: dummy.bahnhof.se 962202902 195.178.166.131 (Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:35:02 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:35:02 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!dummy.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22463 Adrian Ratnapala wrote: > It tend to think of it as SF is "what if ", and fantasy is "let's > pretend". > The difference is subtle (and probably in the strictest sense, non > existent). I'm more inclined to think of SF as "something that might happen in the future" and fantasy as "something that could have happened far away in the past". > Still I find that most people who have thought about it agree. Star Wars > for example becomes fantasy. A short story called Uebermench! about a > world where superman landed in Nazi Germany instead of America is SF. I think it was Margaret Weis that coined the expression "Galactic romance", events set in a sci-fi environment but concentrating more on the people of the future than the technology of said future. I think "Star Wars" fit into that description. Uebermench would fit more into a "What if..." category as far as I'm concerned, especially if it was written after WWII. /Jonas ###### From: Mia Kalogjera Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. SF (was Arggh). Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 16:32:34 -0700 Organization: HiNet Lines: 41 Message-ID: <395A8B12.39EF@yahoo.com> References: <8j5ki8$7bi$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <6064-3956E174-93@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <8j82gr$5p3$2@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: ar3-p78-ri.tel.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 962202690 27310 195.29.237.78 (28 Jun 2000 14:31:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jun 2000 14:31:30 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22488 Adrian Ratnapala wrote: > The difference between SF and fantasy is quite an interesting question. I can > think of no work which does not fit easily into one category or another, > nonetheless, the difference is very hard to define. > > What thoughts have people on it? For my own, see below. > > >My favourite definition between fantasy and science fiction is that sci-fi > >deals with things that could be, while fantasy deals with what could never > >be. Even then, though, I think there's good books that blur the distinction. > > It tend to think of it as SF is "what if ", and fantasy is "let's pretend". > The difference is subtle (and probably in the strictest sense, non existent). > Still I find that most people who have thought about it agree. Star Wars > for example becomes fantasy. A short story called Uebermench! about a world > where superman landed in Nazi Germany instead of America is SF. Whoa, this really is a difficult question now, with all the genres mixing... I thought, when I read the Q at the beginning of the post, I could answer it in a second: "SF deals with _science_, y'know, and fantasy has none of that!". All I had to do was think of a few randomly chosen works of SF and F to see all clear definitions fall into water. One thing, though: I think fantasy always in a way involves mythology or mysticism. Of course, A. C. Clarke's books are full of non-scientific speculations as well, but they are tightly connected with the future and 'point' of humanity, a product of the scientific - read engaged - mind, not a freely inventing one. "Star Wars" for instance takes place in deep space with all the technology one can imagine, but its inner construction is a fairy-tale plot, with rescuing princesses from dark sorcerers, monsters, knights, etc. As for mythology and misticism, the "Force" element is all-suffusing. I haven't read Uebermensch!, but I see that although the 'science' bit of its SF definition is toned down, the F of it stands for pure speculative 'fiction', not 'fantasy', which is very different. Anyway, I'll get back to you on this one still! I'm glad somebody remembered to bring it up. :) Cheers, Mia ###### From: raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. SF (was Arggh). Date: 28 Jun 2000 21:14:48 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <8j5ki8$7bi$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <6064-3956E174-93@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <8j82gr$5p3$2@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: s369625.student.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 962226888 29414 172.20.76.33 (28 Jun 2000 21:14:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jun 2000 21:14:48 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!raka Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22509 On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 14:35:02 GMT, Jonas Thorell wrote: >I'm more inclined to think of SF as "something that might happen >in the future" and fantasy as "something that could have happened far >away in the past". While this covers most bases if you correct for magic (on the fantasy side, no one would call the first chapter of 2001...Oddessy anything but SF), I think it misses some things. Most importantly it doesn't explain why SF and fantasy _feel_ different. >> Still I find that most people who have thought about it agree. Star Wars >> for example becomes fantasy. A short story called Uebermench! about a >> world where superman landed in Nazi Germany instead of America is SF. > >I think it was Margaret Weis that coined the expression "Galactic romance", I was going to rant about exactly that in my previous post but forgot. I thing "Galactic Romance" is just fantasy with spaceships. I mean fantasy donesn't _have_ to be all swords and sourcery does it? The kind of story which Star Wars tells (and from the reports of my friends, the kind which Weis tells in what she wrote) just _feel_ like fantasy. You've got Young Scions using their Magic Powers to overturn Dark Lords. I mean they even have swords! Note that other works by both Wies and Lucas are fantasy. >events set in a sci-fi environment but concentrating more on the people of >the future than the technology of said future. I think "Star Wars" fit into I'm not sure that is quite a fair description. Most sci-fi is not about the technology. I will agree that SF often takes a more collectivist POV, i.e talking about the fate of peoples rather than persons. There are exceptions to ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8j5ki8$7bi$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <6064-3956E174-93@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <8j82gr$5p3$2@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. SF (was Arggh). Lines: 49 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:38:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.190 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: dummy.bahnhof.se 962235487 195.178.166.190 (Thu, 29 Jun 2000 01:38:07 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 01:38:07 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!dummy.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22514 Adrian Ratnapala wrote: > >I'm more inclined to think of SF as "something that might happen > >in the future" and fantasy as "something that could have happened far > >away in the past". > While this covers most bases if you correct for magic (on the fantasy >side No doubt. >, no one would call the first chapter of 2001...Oddessy anything but SF), I > think it misses some things. Most importantly it doesn't explain why SF > and fantasy _feel_ different. Well, that is certainly true but I don't think it's possible to come up with a criteria that fits all or most of sci-fi and fantasy respectively and still be able to explain the feeling-difference. > >I think it was Margaret Weis that coined the expression "Galactic > >romance", > I was going to rant about exactly that in my previous post but forgot. > I thing "Galactic Romance" is just fantasy with spaceships. I mean > fantasy donesn't _have_ to be all swords and sourcery does it? No, you're exactly right. If I wasn't clear, I also think of Star Wars as fantasy but the Galactic Romance variety of it. > You've got Young Scions using their Magic Powers to overturn Dark Lords. > I mean they even have swords! Note that other works by both Wies and > Lucas are fantasy. I've only read "The lost king" in the "Star of the Guardians" series by Weis, and yes. It's fantasy all right. It also feels somewhat like a Star Wars rip-off. > I'm not sure that is quite a fair description. Most sci-fi is not > about the technology. Well, not about really but more often than not, the technology and/or our current view of the universe tend to be a major part of the plot. /Jonas ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. SF (was Arggh). Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 29 Jun 2000 01:22:08 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000628212208.02338.00000914@nso-cj.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22518 In article , raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) writes: >The difference between SF and fantasy is quite an interesting question. I >can >think of no work which does not fit easily into one category or another, >nonetheless, the difference is very hard to define. > >What thoughts have people on it? For my own, see below. > >>My favourite definition between fantasy and science fiction is that sci-fi >>deals with things that could be, while fantasy deals with what could never >>be. Even then, though, I think there's good books that blur the distinction. > >It tend to think of it as SF is "what if ", and fantasy is "let's pretend". >The difference is subtle (and probably in the strictest sense, non existent). >Still I find that most people who have thought about it agree. Star Wars >for example becomes fantasy. A short story called Uebermench! about a world >where superman landed in Nazi Germany instead of America is SF. I think my definitions put SF as something that happens within a universe ruled by laws of nature/physics and Fantasy as something that happens in a world that has an _accessible_ Supernatural/Superphysical element that can be called on not by knowledge and skill but by an inherent nature of a character. I think the _accessable_ part is key. Some might say that this makes ME SF and if it does then I have to work on a refined definition. But I, like Tolkien, think of ME as History as much as I think of it as Fantasy. For SF to be SF it doesn't have to be exactly our laws of nature working, plenty of SF writers have posited new twists to physics to make their plot work, or even to give a basis to start the plot off on. Early James P. Hogan was very good at doing this and making it work. I haven't read him for a while though. "...it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succor of those years wherein we are set, uprooting evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till." The Last Debate ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. SF (was Arggh). Lines: 38 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 29 Jun 2000 03:34:24 GMT References: <1645-395ABA9A-5@storefull-258.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000628233424.02732.00000484@nso-fx.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22520 In article <1645-395ABA9A-5@storefull-258.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) writes: > Sci-fi also tends to have a moralistic pov as well. Some sci-fi >tends to warn us about the concequences of unchecked technological >and/or scientific advances. It tells us that certain things are "bad", >such as human cloning or super intelligent computers. While much of it >preys on our fears and mistrust of science, it can some times show us >potential mistakes we could make before we make them. > >>There are exceptions to > >Yes? :) > >--Dave > > That may be true of current sci-fi but Golden Age sci-fi was frequently all about how great technology was and how it could transport (literally and figuratively when it came to space travel) us into a future free of many of the problems we have today. E. E. "Doc" Smith's Lensman series is all about the dawning of a new golden age and how technology and human virtues combined bring it about. Yes there were problems in these stories but _really_ perfect worlds don't provide the tension for a good plot. Worlds that are almost perfect, and more perfect than our own did provide most of the plots. Even the good Doctor' Empire/Foundation series showed how science and technology in the form of a developed Psychohistory could help bring about a new dawn of civilization after the fall of and empire and the subsequent dark ages, just as it did in our own history. That there eventually was needed a truely human, non-technological/scientific push as well only shows that science can't do everything, but it doesn't show science to be bad. PaulB "...it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succor of those years wherein we are set, uprooting evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till."LotR V:9 ###### From: raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. SF (was Arggh). Date: 29 Jun 2000 04:06:28 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <8j5ki8$7bi$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <6064-3956E174-93@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <8j82gr$5p3$2@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: s369625.student.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 962251588 15411 172.20.76.33 (29 Jun 2000 04:06:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jun 2000 04:06:28 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!newshub1.rdc1.nsw.optushome.com.au!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!raka Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22536 On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 23:38:07 GMT, Jonas Thorell wrote: >Well, that is certainly true but I don't think it's possible to come up with >a criteria that fits all or most of sci-fi and fantasy respectively and >still be able to explain the feeling-difference. Yep. >> I was going to rant about exactly that in my previous post but forgot. >> I thing "Galactic Romance" is just fantasy with spaceships. I mean >> fantasy donesn't _have_ to be all swords and sourcery does it? > >No, you're exactly right. If I wasn't clear, I also think of Star Wars >as fantasy but the Galactic Romance variety of it. Ah right, I was getting confused then. We are agreeing. >Well, not about really but more often than not, the technology and/or >our current view of the universe tend to be a major part of the >plot. With the ammendations, I will agree. ###### From: raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. SF (was Arggh). Date: 29 Jun 2000 04:12:06 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <1645-395ABA9A-5@storefull-258.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: s369625.student.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 962251926 15411 172.20.76.33 (29 Jun 2000 04:12:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jun 2000 04:12:06 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!raka Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22545 On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 22:55:22 -0400 (EDT), David Sulger wrote: >Some would argue that Star Wars is fantasy rather than sci-fi because of >the concept of the Force. And of course, Star Wars tends to be pretty >light on the technobabble, unlike some popular types of sci-fi (e.g. >Star Trek). Yes, but I think it runs much deeper. >>Note that other works by both Wies and >Lucas are fantasy. > >Dragonlance and Willow. To name the most famous. (And in the case of Dragonlance, most pointless). >>Most sci-fi is not about the technology. I >>will agree that SF often takes a more >>collectivist POV, i.e talking about the fate >>of peoples rather than persons. > >Technology in sci-fi is more along the nature of props or plot devices. >Sci-fi which concentrates too heavily on tech (and sfx in film and >television) usually ends up looking shallow. Often. There are notable exceptions. A.C. Clarke writes almost entirely about technology, and that is his strength. There is a lot of talk that for a book to be good it must talk about the human problems and devopments in its characters. Now while this is a very important kind of writing, to give it a monopoly is pretty prochial. SF does not need to be about humans. It can be about _anything_. > Sci-fi also tends to have a moralistic pov as well. Some sci-fi Yep. >>There are exceptions to > >Yes? :) Sorry, no idea what I was writing. ###### From: raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. SF (was Arggh). Date: 29 Jun 2000 04:15:05 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <1645-395ABA9A-5@storefull-258.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <20000628233424.02732.00000484@nso-fx.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: s369625.student.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 962252105 15411 172.20.76.33 (29 Jun 2000 04:15:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jun 2000 04:15:05 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!raka Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22533 On 29 Jun 2000 03:34:24 GMT, PaulB wrote: >That may be true of current sci-fi but Golden Age sci-fi was frequently all OK, don't know _too_ much about the Golden Age though. I'll beleive you. >more perfect than our own did provide most of the plots. Even the good Doctor' >Empire/Foundation series showed how science and technology in the form of a >developed Psychohistory could help bring about a new dawn of civilization after I never thought of that. You are quite right, in fact if you compare the early Foundation books to the late megaliths like Foundation and Earth you will see how Psychohistory takes a back seat in the modern Asimov. ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. SF (was Arggh). Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 02:23:54 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 17 Message-ID: <275mls0o6hvjflo8bqklfsaqsdp3es7sd1@4ax.com> References: <20000628212208.02338.00000914@nso-cj.aol.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22534 In article , raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) writes: >The difference between SF and fantasy is quite an interesting question. Yes, since they are ill-defined terms of literary criticism, a field not known for its diamond-cutter precision. So I'm sure that these terms will provide of field of argument for those-without-a-life in aft and rabt for, lo, many moons to come. Let the Flames Begin! the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes..." -- Capt. James T. Kirk ###### From: Mia Kalogjera Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. SF (was Arggh). Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:02:31 -0700 Organization: HiNet Lines: 12 Message-ID: <395BAB57.3FB7@yahoo.com> References: <8j5ki8$7bi$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <6064-3956E174-93@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <8j82gr$5p3$2@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: ar1-p61-ri.tel.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 962276483 29886 195.29.236.61 (29 Jun 2000 11:01:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jun 2000 11:01:23 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22530 Adrian Ratnapala wrote: > one would call the first chapter of 2001...Oddessy Odyssey Cheers, Mia ###### From: Mia Kalogjera Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. SF (was Arggh). Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:05:39 -0700 Organization: HiNet Lines: 12 Message-ID: <395BAC13.41AF@yahoo.com> References: <8j5ki8$7bi$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <6064-3956E174-93@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <8j82gr$5p3$2@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> <395A8B12.39EF@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ar1-p61-ri.tel.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 962276671 29947 195.29.236.61 (29 Jun 2000 11:04:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Jun 2000 11:04:31 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22529 Adrian Ratnapala wrote: > If you are still thinking about this Mia, save the post and answer > it later. I wouldn't wan't to poison your fragile mind :) Heehee, thank you for that! But the truth is, I have to think about Fauvists and Expressionists most these days. *sigh* Cheers, Mia ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. SF (was Arggh). Lines: 18 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 Jun 2000 02:15:36 GMT References: <275mls0o6hvjflo8bqklfsaqsdp3es7sd1@4ax.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000629221536.02322.00004511@nso-fu.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!diablo.theplanet.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22574 In article <275mls0o6hvjflo8bqklfsaqsdp3es7sd1@4ax.com>, the softrat writes: >>The difference between SF and fantasy is quite an interesting question. > >Yes, since they are ill-defined terms of literary criticism, a field >not known for its diamond-cutter precision. So I'm sure that these >terms will provide of field of argument for those-without-a-life in >aft and rabt for, lo, many moons to come. This is why the Science-Fiction Writers of America changed their name to Science-Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America (in the early '90's, IIRC) PaulB "...it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succor of those years wherein we are set, uprooting evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till."LotR V:9 ###### From: pahis@voimax.cygnnet.jkl.fi (Juho P. Pahajoki) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. SF (was Arggh). References: <8j5ki8$7bi$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <6064-3956E174-93@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <8j82gr$5p3$2@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 13 Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:54:55 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.165.8.237 X-Trace: read2.inet.fi 962376895 195.165.8.237 (Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:54:55 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 17:54:55 EET DST Organization: Sonera corp Internet services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeeds.saunalahti.fi!nntp.inet.fi!central.inet.fi!inet.fi!read2.inet.fi.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22548 Se oli Adrian Ratnapala joka näin lausui, noin nimesi: >I mean >fantasy donesn't _have_ to be all swords and sourcery does it? Sourcery? That's what the techno-mages do, right? ( Alright, alright, I know, a stupid joke. ) -- "In my experience, this is the ultimate problem with Open Source development: not enough formal engaged testing. Developers want to write code, they don't want to solve all the niggling little problems that users come up with." -- Andrew Shuman ###### From: raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Fantasy vs. SF (was Arggh). Date: 1 Jul 2000 22:21:51 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <8j5ki8$7bi$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> <6064-3956E174-93@storefull-257.iap.bryant.webtv.net> <8j82gr$5p3$2@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: s369625.student.uq.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 962490111 5131 172.20.76.33 (1 Jul 2000 22:21:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jul 2000 22:21:51 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!raka Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22602 On Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:54:55 GMT, Juho P. Pahajoki wrote: >Se oli Adrian Ratnapala joka näin lausui, noin nimesi: >>I mean >>fantasy donesn't _have_ to be all swords and sourcery does it? > >Sourcery? That's what the techno-mages do, right? Sorry, sorry, probably subliminial infuences from the Pratchett book.