From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Dragons, just robots? Date: 26 Jun 2000 19:54:32 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 33 Message-ID: <8j8cdo$3j$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: sirppi.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 962049272 115 128.214.205.27 (26 Jun 2000 19:54:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jun 2000 19:54:32 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22414 I have only a few minutes so I must keep this short. Some have said that dragons were not living creatures at all, but were robots or were in fact Morgoth. Meaning that Morgoth controlled them directly and that all they were was Morgoth: he put his Ainurian essence into "creating" Dragons from nothing. We know however that they had children, which would imply that they were live and not just manifestations of Melkor's essence. I would also say that they had some kind of a free will. Glaurung attacked despite the fact that Morgoth didn't wish him to do that. He and Smaug are also act and talk like thinking beings with free will (of course we cannot now for sure that they or even we have free will). Ainur didn't have children as far as I know (Luthien was Melian's child, but she had a mortal (oops, immortal) father), so I don't think the Dragons were Maiar. I would say that they were some corrupted spirits. We don't know however, if there were non-Ainu spirits (well Ungoliant comes to mind). They might have been corrupted animals, some of wich were apparently intelligent (Great eagles and Ravens and the old bird in the Hobbit). In fact now that I thought about the thing more, maybe they were corrupted great Eagles. They were after all counterparts in the air, like orcs and elves, Trolls and Ents, were on the ground. Yes that is my opinion, any counter arguments ? Tamim -- ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8j8cdo$3j$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> Subject: Re: Dragons, just robots? Lines: 42 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4029.2901 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:12:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.25.173 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 962147577 12.79.25.173 (Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:12:57 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 23:12:57 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.20!wnmasters3!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22458 "Tamim" wrote in message news:8j8cdo$3j$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi... > Some have said that dragons were not living creatures at all, but > were robots or were in fact Morgoth. The earliest dragons in 'The Fall of Gondolin' were clearly constructs of some sort. However, even towards the end of that story they began showing signs of life (crying out in pain and such) and soon explicitly became bred creatures. > We know however that they had children, which would imply that > they were live and not just manifestations of Melkor's essence. In one case (Morgoth's Ring) Tolkien indicated that a great part of Morgoth's power went towards giving his creatures the ability to reproduce on their own. > Ainur didn't have children as far as I know (Luthien was Melian's > child, but she had a mortal (oops, immortal) father), so I don't > think the Dragons were Maiar. Again, in the earlier texts the Ainur explicitly could have children. In later texts Tolkien tried to move away from this idea, but there were always a few hold-outs that made it difficult. > They might have been corrupted animals, some of wich were > apparently intelligent (Great eagles and Ravens and the old bird > in the Hobbit). And why were THOSE intelligent? In a couple of places Tolkien stated that the Eagles were Maiar, but he presented other possibilities also. > In fact now that I thought about the thing more, maybe they were > corrupted great Eagles. They were after all counterparts in the > air, like orcs and elves, Trolls and Ents, were on the ground. The original dragons were wingless. ###### From: "Morgil" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8j8cdo$3j$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> Subject: Re: Dragons, just robots? Lines: 19 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 00:20:59 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.213.248.118 X-Trace: read2.inet.fi 962151659 212.213.248.118 (Wed, 28 Jun 2000 03:20:59 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 03:20:59 EET DST Organization: Sonera corp Internet services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!unlisys!news.snafu.de!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!skynet.be!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!nntp.inet.fi!central.inet.fi!inet.fi!read2.inet.fi.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22451 Conrad Dunkerson kirjoitti viestissä ... >"Tamim" wrote in message >news:8j8cdo$3j$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi... > > >> In fact now that I thought about the thing more, maybe they were >> corrupted great Eagles. They were after all counterparts in the >> air, like orcs and elves, Trolls and Ents, were on the ground. > >The original dragons were wingless. > Could Winged Beasts be corrupted Eagles? I think it was mentioned in LOTR that they were a relic of some kind from earlier ages and maybe creatures of Morgoth. Morgil ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8j8cdo$3j$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> Subject: Re: Dragons, just robots? Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 01:17:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.166.159 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: dummy.bahnhof.se 962155065 195.178.166.159 (Wed, 28 Jun 2000 03:17:45 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2000 03:17:45 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!netnews.globalip.ch!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news.algonet.se!algonet!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!dummy.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22467 Morgil wrote: > Could Winged Beasts be corrupted Eagles? I think it was mentioned > in LOTR that they were a relic of some kind from earlier ages and > maybe creatures of Morgoth. I've always envisioned the Winged Beasts (I assume you mean the Nazguls steads?) were descendants of the things Orome were hunting in Middle-earth before the awakening of the elves. I don't know if it's right or not... /Jonas ###### From: raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dragons, just robots? Date: 28 Jun 2000 09:27:27 GMT Organization: University of Queensland Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <8j8cdo$3j$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: s369625.student.uq.edu.au X-Trace: bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au 962184447 12464 172.20.76.33 (28 Jun 2000 09:27:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@uq.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Jun 2000 09:27:27 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news1.optus.net.au!optus!bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au!raka Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22496 On Wed, 28 Jun 2000 01:17:45 GMT, Jonas Thorell wrote: > >I've always envisioned the Winged Beasts (I assume you mean the >Nazguls steads?) were descendants of the things Orome were hunting >in Middle-earth before the awakening of the elves. > >I don't know if it's right or not... > I think thats a fairly safe bet. I mean if the ancestors of those things _were_ around in the FA (and I think LotR does hint this), then you think Orome _wouldn't_ be hunting them? ###### From: "O. Sharp" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dragons, just robots? Date: 29 Jun 2000 00:59:38 GMT Organization: But Why Not A Giant Canary? Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8je71q$fu$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> References: <8j8cdo$3j$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.72 User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990517 ("Psychonaut") (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22522 Morgil asks: : Could Winged Beasts be corrupted Eagles? I think it was mentioned : in LOTR that they were a relic of some kind from earlier ages and : maybe creatures of Morgoth. There's no absolute "yes" that I can find anywhere, but indications are positive. :) _RotK_ p. 115 hardback describes the Witch-king's mount thus: "A creature of an older world maybe it was, whose kind, lingering in forgotten mountains cold beneath the Moon, outstayed their day, and in hideous eyrie bred this last untimely brood, apt to evil." In _Letters_ #212 Tolkien described it as "pterodactylic", and notes that "its description even provides a sort of way in which it could be a survivor of older geologic eras." So it's _likely_ to been a creature of Ages past... but even Tolkien doesn't seem to be able to say this as a certainty. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ohh@netcom.com ...It's interesting to note that in the early drafts, as given in _WotR_ pp. 365-6, the Witch-king flew in on a gigantic vulture. :) ###### From: "O. Sharp" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Dragons, just robots? Date: 29 Jun 2000 01:31:45 GMT Organization: Crossposted To 3/4 Of North America, For Starters Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8je8u1$81b$1@slb3.atl.mindspring.net> References: <8j8cdo$3j$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8je71q$fu$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.72 User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990517 ("Psychonaut") (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22521 And now I'll correct myself. :) I quoted thus: : Morgil asks: : : Could Winged Beasts be corrupted Eagles? I think it was mentioned : : in LOTR that they were a relic of some kind from earlier ages and : : maybe creatures of Morgoth. ...and answered thus: : There's no absolute "yes" that I can find anywhere, but indications are : positive. :) [....] Alas! my choice of quoting was ludicrously unclear. My post was meant to address the question of their being "a relic of some kind from earlier ages", but _not_ to address the "corrupted Eagles" or "creatures of Morgoth" aspects of the question. Apologies to everyone I've ludicurously confused today. :) --------------------------------------------------------------------- ohh@netcom.com ...as opposed to everyone I've ludicrously confused over the course of my _lifetime_, which would be a _far_ longer list. :)