Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Orcs and Elvish things X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 18 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 961296560 128.135.12.7 (Sat, 17 Jun 2000 21:49:20 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 21:49:20 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 02:49:20 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21722 An odd thought struck me the other day: when they were captured by the Uruk-hai, Merry and Pippin were carrying rather a lot of Elvish goods. They wore cloaks and brooches from Lorien, and Pippin at least had some _lembas_ in his pocket. However, as Pippin says, the Orcs didn't seem to have taken anything but their swords. This was presumably connected with their orders: Grishnakh says, "The prisoners are NOT to be searched or plundered". This raises an interesting question for me, though: why weren't the Orcs bothered by the Elvish cloaks and everything else? We know that Gollum was entirely unable to even deal with touching _lembas_ or their wrappers, and the rope from Lorien seem to have caused actual burning pain for him. What was it that made him so sensitive to Elvish things, and why did the Orcs not have similar problems? (Or did they just grit their teeth and bear it?) After all, they had to touch the cloaks whenever they carried Merry and Pippin, presumably. Any thoughts? Steuard Jensen ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 22:57:12 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 15 Message-ID: <10570-394C3A88-73@storefull-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAmzTHUzN+f8NBQuYvVqutdx8aYpsCFERrbszWh7HTxeVEGdwxyiuRG2dA Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21740 Steuard Jensen wrote: >This raises an interesting question for >me, though: why weren't the Orcs >bothered by the Elvish cloaks and >everything else? (Or did they just grit >their teeth and bear it?) That's probably it. The orcs that were in charge of handling Merry and Pippin were Grishnakh's men for the most part I think; they probably endured any pain or discomfort so as not to look weak in front of the orcs from Mordor or Moria. --Dave ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Lines: 71 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 18 Jun 2000 04:07:26 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000618000726.17452.00004245@nso-fh.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21786 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: >This raises an interesting question for me, though: why weren't the >Orcs bothered by the Elvish cloaks and everything else? We know that >Gollum was entirely unable to even deal with touching _lembas_ or >their wrappers, and the rope from Lorien seem to have caused actual >burning pain for him. What was it that made him so sensitive to >Elvish things, and why did the Orcs not have similar problems? (Or did >they just grit their teeth and bear it?) After all, they had to touch >the cloaks whenever they carried Merry and Pippin, presumably. Any >thoughts? > Steuard Jensen I think the problems which Gollum had with things elvish might be better explore when viewed in the context of how Gollum differed from other _Hobbits_, rather than how he differed from Orcs. Its easy to lump Gollum and the Orcs together because they are both evil creatures but Gollum is closer to other Hobbits, yet there is a startling difference the two. 1) Gollum has been affected by the ring for roughly 550 years, having carried it for the first 470 or so. Bilbo has associated with the ring for about 80 years (give or take), the first 61 he was actually in possesion of it, and Frodo has only had possession of it for 17 years. 2) Gollum has come face to face with Sauron. Either of these sources of Evil could conceivably have imbued Gollom with an aversion for things elvish, which otherwise wouldn't be a part of his Hobbit constitution. The first has a seeming problem in that Bilbo and Frodo were not affected in the same way, in fact they seem to have _grown_ an affinity for Elvish artifacts and culture, but this might be rationalized by a combination of lack of time in relation ti the ring (comparitively) and a generally healthier moral foundation on which the relationship to the ring was begun (Need I say Murder vs. Pity?) Mix these two things as you please. The second for me is a more problematic. I would reason on the one hand that anyone subjected to the direct domination of Sauron's will would come out of the experience influence enough to have problems dealing with things created by Sauron's main enemy. On the other hand, Gollum already has a (seeming) aversion to Sting's elvish quality even more than to the actual sharpness of the dagger itself. This is before Gollum meets up with Sauron, so I am lead to go for some idea based more on the first idea. I've disregarded comparing Orcs to Gollum because while both are evil, in their own way, They are not _intrinsicly_ evil in the same way. Orcs were brought about by Morgoth and as such are evil almost by definition, Gollum is evil because, while his nature might not have been entirely wholesome before he gained the ring, it was probably not beyond the parameters of the normal levels of mischieviousness found in many children of more disfunctional families. The evil nature that we think of as Gollum, rather than Smėagol, came about with the advent of the Ring, which seems to have amplified the already less desirable traits Smėagol had. This brings me once more right back to my first option as to the source of Gollums aversion to things elvish. I will leave the fleshing out of the mechanics of this to future posts, as (1) it is late and I must get up early tomorrow, (2) I'd be intrested in seeing some response to my general premise first, (because I've got very little idea myself where to go with it, although it feels "right" to me in general.) and (3) I wrote this on the spot because it felt "obvious" to me and I just rattle off what I felt I had to, but I need time to think it through a bit more now that the initial brainstorm is past and I need to consider the ramifications. Breathe Peace PaulB "[The Elves] position, ..., was one of exiles driven forward (against their will) who were in mind or actual posture ever looking backward." JRRT "History is an angel being blown backward into the future" — Laurie Anderson ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Lines: 39 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4029.2901 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 11:29:14 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.73.38 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 961327754 12.78.73.38 (Sun, 18 Jun 2000 11:29:14 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 11:29:14 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters3!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21759 "Steuard Jensen" wrote in message news:QMW25.282$v3.3230@uchinews... > We know that Gollum was entirely unable to even deal with > touching _lembas_ or their wrappers, and the rope from Lorien > seem to have caused actual burning pain for him. What was it > that made him so sensitive to Elvish things, and why did the Orcs > not have similar problems? (Or did they just grit their teeth and > bear it?) "...in one hand it held a sword, the very light of which was a bitter pain..." RotK, The Tower of Cirith Ungol Snaga's reaction to Sting... which was possibly 'enhanced' by the power of the One at the time. Shagrat has a similar reaction a few pages later; "...and in his hand was Sting, and its light smote the eyes of the Orc like the glitter of cruel stars in the terrible elf-countries, the dream of which was a cold fear to all his kind." My take on the issue is that Orcs felt the same effects that Gollum did, but not as acutely and that they bore it more stoically. As to why Gollum would be more affected... it seems clear from some of the descriptions of his appearance that the Ring had warped Gollum's body as thoroughly as his mind. Consider his aversion to not only sunlight (as the Orcs) but even the lesser brightness of the Moon. I might describe this as the 'concentration of Morgoth element' in the bodily form... the Orcish race had received direct infusions long ago, but Gollum had been in close contact with a powerful source (the One) for centuries. He might have recovered eventually, but at the time his body reacted badly to any particularly 'clean' thing. The burning of Morgoth, Carcharoth, Maglor and Maedhros by the Silmarils might be taken as a similar situation. ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 19:00:28 +0300 Organization: Helsingin Yliopisto Lines: 37 Message-ID: <394E439C.61F42F81@helsinki.fi> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: kajakki.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 961430451 29960 128.214.189.16 (19 Jun 2000 16:00:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Jun 2000 16:00:51 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21905 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > "Steuard Jensen" wrote in message > news:QMW25.282$v3.3230@uchinews... > > > We know that Gollum was entirely unable to even deal with > > touching _lembas_ or their wrappers, and the rope from Lorien > > seem to have caused actual burning pain for him. What was it > > that made him so sensitive to Elvish things, and why did the Orcs > > not have similar problems? (Or did they just grit their teeth and > > bear it?) | He might have recovered > eventually, but at the time his body reacted badly to any > particularly 'clean' thing. The burning of Morgoth, Carcharoth, > Maglor and Maedhros by the Silmarils might be taken as a similar > situation. That is one very plausible explanation, I have another. What if the pain wasn't due to the evil character of Gollum (morally evil). What if it was because of his "race" or "nature". I mean that at that time he was almost a shadow or ghost. He wasn't exactly a living being anymore, without the ring's influence he would have died centuries ago. Nazguls would have probably suffered much the same way, even the name of Elbereth got them frightened (Gollum was after all slowly becoming a nazgul type creature). Orcs on the other hand were living beings, probably deformed elves. A totally evil human would not probably have suffered, but mouth of Sauron might have. How about Saruman? Doubt it. Another question: How about the effects of sunlight? Orcs, Trolls as well as Nazguls and other Undead beings (like Gollum) suffered from it. Dragons, evil humans, and even evil Maiar don't seem to be effected, at least not very much. What is the common nominator? Tamim ###### From: darat9999@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 15:31:51 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <8io2p8$c98$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.114.124.191 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Jun 20 15:31:51 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x71.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 162.114.124.191 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdarat9999 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!netnews.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21909 Steuard's question: "why weren't the Orcs bothered by the Elvish cloaks and everything else? We know that Gollum was entirely unable to even deal with touching _lembas_ or their wrappers, and the rope from Lorien seem to have caused actual burning pain for him. What was it that made him so sensitive to Elvish things, and why did the Orcs not have similar problems?" (snip remainder of question) Dear Steuard, After reading a few possibilities put forward by other group members, I'm going to come in with my 2 cents worth: I believe a factor in this perceived difference in response between the Orcs & Gollum vis a vis Elvish stuff was that Gollum (apparently) was almost completely nude and thus the Elvish things came into direct contact with his skin. The Orcs, OTOH, wore mail, haulbruks, underclothes, etc. and thus did not have as much of the same skin-to- Elf-stuff contact that Gollum had. Take Care, Paul Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: kmarek@cybercash.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 20:14:40 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 40 Message-ID: <8iojb0$ptu$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.178.186.6 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Jun 20 20:14:40 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x57.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 204.178.186.6 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDcroaker69 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed2.skycache.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21966 In article , "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: > "Steuard Jensen" wrote in message > news:QMW25.282$v3.3230@uchinews... > > > We know that Gollum was entirely unable to even deal with > > touching _lembas_ or their wrappers, and the rope from Lorien > > seem to have caused actual burning pain for him. What was it > > that made him so sensitive to Elvish things, and why did the Orcs > > not have similar problems? (Or did they just grit their teeth and > > bear it?) > > "...in one hand it held a sword, the very light of which was a > bitter pain..." > RotK, The Tower of Cirith Ungol > > Snaga's reaction to Sting... which was possibly 'enhanced' by the > power of the One at the time. Shagrat has a similar reaction a > few pages later; > > "...and in his hand was Sting, and its light smote the eyes of the > Orc like the glitter of cruel stars in the terrible elf-countries, > the dream of which was a cold fear to all his kind." > Contrast this to the goblins' reaction to Glamdring and Orcrist (if anything more potent than Sting) in the Misty Mountains (The Hobbit). Anger, outrage, shock but no fear. Well maybe some a little later.... But IMHO this reaction and that in RoTK quoted above is because these items (including Sting) were created to kill goblins. It doesn't feel analogous to an elvish rope burning skin on contact. Croaker Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Message-ID: <3951AE16.224CF9A8@yahoo.com> From: Opal Drake Reply-To: opalSPAMdrake@yahooBLOCK.com Organization: Left Wing Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things References: <394E439C.61F42F81@helsinki.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 01:11:34 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.179.194.92 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: ord-read.news.verio.net 961654222 207.179.194.92 (Thu, 22 Jun 2000 06:10:22 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 06:10:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!ord-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21995 Tamim wrote: > That is one very plausible explanation, I have another. > What if the pain wasn't due to the evil character of Gollum (morally > evil). What if it was because of his "race" or "nature". I mean that at > that time he was almost a shadow or ghost. He wasn't exactly a living > being anymore, without the ring's influence he would have died centuries > ago. Nazguls would have probably suffered much the same way, even the > name of Elbereth got them frightened (Gollum was after all slowly > becoming a nazgul type creature). Orcs on the other hand were living > beings, probably deformed elves. A totally evil human would not probably > have suffered, but mouth of Sauron might have. How about Saruman? Doubt > it. I think this explanation is the best one. Gollum certainly was turning into a wraith creature, existing both in this world and in the shadow world. Hence, his senses would more acutely perceive the 'spirit nature' of the Elves and of Elven goods. Orcs were essentially just like other normal living things, and would react accordingly. -- ****************************************************** The Opal Dragon To E-mail me, remove 'SPAM BLOCK' from return address. ###### From: darat9999@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 17:51:27 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 32 Message-ID: <8itjmm$e57$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <394E439C.61F42F81@helsinki.fi> <3951AE16.224CF9A8@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.114.124.191 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Jun 22 17:51:27 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x70.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 162.114.124.191 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdarat9999 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22012 Opal's response to Tamim's theory: "I think this explanation is the best one. Gollum certainly was turning into a wraith creature, existing both in this world and in the shadow world. Hence, his senses would more acutely perceive the 'spirit nature' of the Elves and of Elven goods. Orcs were essentially just like other normal living things, and would react accordingly." Dear Opal, I would like to respond to your comment about Gollum existing both in this world and the shadow world. IMO, that 'transformation' only occurs when someone is actively wearing a Ring (like the Nazgul, who wore theirs continously). Gollum, for probably hundreds of years, only wore his Ring very intermittently (like when he was looking for an Orc supper). I think Sam could attest to fact that Gollum was a very physical presence and was not at all 'wraithlike'. My theory, which I mentioned previously in this thread, is that the bad reaction to Elvish Stuff occurred when there was skin to skin contact. Gollum was pretty much naked, the Orcs wore all kinds of armor & clothes. Thus, in case of Orcs, their skin did not generally come into any kind of contact with the Elvish Stuff (plus they actively avoided any skin contact). Cheers, Paul Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 22 Jun 2000 22:21:47 GMT References: <8itjmm$e57$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000622182147.02859.00000105@nso-cn.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22139 In article <8itjmm$e57$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, darat9999@my-deja.com writes: > IMO, that 'transformation' only >occurs when someone is actively wearing a Ring (like the Nazgul, who >wore theirs continously). Gollum, for probably hundreds of years, only >wore his Ring very intermittently (like when he was looking for an Orc >supper). I think Sam could attest to fact that Gollum was a very >physical presence and was not at all 'wraithlike'. > > Yet, according to some, who whould interpret the passage stating that Sauron had the Nine ring "in hand" to mean that he had them either on his fingers or kept in close proximity to his person, and certainly not being worn by the nine themselves at the time ot the War of the Ring,(1) would use this to show that at some point the wearing of the ring would confer some degree of existince in the other world, regaardless of the actual wearing of the ring at the time. Gollum might not be as far gone as the Nine, but he could be at some intermediate stage, which is what I think Opal was going for. (1) I think there is at least one other interpretation, but I'm not sure where I would finally hang my hat in this matter so I won't bring it up now. Breathe Peace PaulB "[The Elves] position, ..., was one of exiles driven forward (against their will) who were in mind or actual posture ever looking backward." JRRT "History is an angel being blown backward into the future" — Laurie Anderson ###### Message-ID: <3952DEDF.1A0CDCDB@yahoo.com> From: Opal Drake Reply-To: opalSPAMdrake@yahooBLOCK.com Organization: Left Wing Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things References: <8itjmm$e57$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20000622182147.02859.00000105@nso-cn.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 49 Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 22:51:59 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.179.194.49 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: ord-read.news.verio.net 961732269 207.179.194.49 (Fri, 23 Jun 2000 03:51:09 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 03:51:09 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!ord-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22078 PaulB wrote: > Yet, according to some, who whould interpret the passage stating that > Sauron had the Nine ring "in hand" to mean that he had them either on his > fingers or kept in close proximity to his person, and certainly not being worn > by the nine themselves at the time ot the War of the Ring,(1) would use this to > show that at some point the wearing of the ring would confer some degree of > existince in the other world, regaardless of the actual wearing of the ring at > the time. Gollum might not be as far gone as the Nine, but he could be at some > intermediate stage, which is what I think Opal was going for. As Mr. PaulB wrote, I do not view the Nine as wearing their Rings all the time. Since Sauron lacked the One Ring in the Third Age, whether or not the Nine wore their's is irrelevant - he couldn't control them through them anyway. No doubt, if Sauron had regained the One Ring, he would have redistributed the Nine. [As a corollary, I think the Nine are much weaker without their Rings than with them, which would allow Sauron to dominate them simply on of his own volition, even at a distance]. It is true that as soon as the One Ring was put on, the weaer could see into the realm of shadows and spirits without being a shadow/ wraith creature himself. I think the 'wraith transformation' happens over time, and once complete, it is permanent. Gollum, it is true, did not wear the Ring all the time. Yet, neither did Bilbo, and already Bilbo's mind was being warped. Gollum certainly wore it more often than Bilbo did, perhaps just enough to effect a partial transformation into a shadow-creature. While the Orcs did wear clothing and other barriers to contact with Elven items, it seems a little far-fetched to claim that the Hobbits' Elven items did not touch the Orcs' skin *at some point*. Given that the Orcs did not react with terrible pain, I can only conclude that they experienced none. And the only possible difference between Orcs and Gollum that would account for this is a 'wraith effect' bestowed on Gollum by the One Ring. Of course, this is a free country [to an extent], so I think we can safely agree to disagree, with no ill feelings. -- ****************************************************** The Opal Dragon To E-mail me, remove 'SPAM BLOCK' from return address. ###### From: darat9999@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 14:06:34 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 56 Message-ID: <8ivqst$un$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8itjmm$e57$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20000622182147.02859.00000105@nso-cn.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.114.124.191 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Jun 23 14:06:34 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x72.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 162.114.124.191 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdarat9999 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22097 PaulB comment: "Yet, according to some, who whould interpret the passage stating that Sauron had the Nine ring "in hand" to mean that he had them either on his fingers or kept in close proximity to his person, and certainly not being worn by the nine themselves at the time ot the War of the Ring,(1) would use this to show that at some point the wearing of the ring would confer some degree of existince in the other world, regaardless of the actual wearing of the ring at the time. Gollum might not be as far gone as the Nine, but he could be at some intermediate stage, which is what I think Opal was going for." Dear PaulB, I wasn't as descriptive as I should have been in my post you commented on. When I said the Nazgul wore their rings 'continously', I meant during the time period when they became wraiths (2nd Age sometime). I agree with you that at the end of 3rd Age, the Nazgul did not wear their rings and that Sauron kept them somewhere. Back when those men who were to become the Nazgul were given their rings, they evidently wore them for a long time before Sauron felt they no longer needed to wear them (it seems to take men a much shorter period of time, than Hobbits, to become wraiths). As far as Opal's conjectures that since Mr. Tolkien didn't write any passages where an Orc howled in pain after touching some 'elf stuff' then they must not have had any kind of similiar reaction as Gollum's, let me state IMO that: a) Orcs were well aware of the effect 'elf stuff' had on them and actively avoided any skin to skin contact as best that they could. b) Orcs encountered by members of fellowship were generally wearing full battle regalia and thus had minimal amounts of exposed skin (unlike Gollum who was nude). c) Orcs in a shock combat unit that did touch some 'elf stuff' were less likely than Gollum to whine/howl in pain. In other words, it may have hurt them about as much, but they didn't bitch about it. d) Gollum was consumed with escaping those allies/members of the fellowship when they captured him and although I believe it was an uncomfortable thing when he touched the 'elf stuff', I think he was being a little histrionic in hopes that he would have a better chance of escaping (witness when he escaped from Elves in Lorien). Also note that when he tries to eat the lembas, you don't see quite the same reaction, just that he thinks they taste like shit. Glad to exchange views with you. Take Care, Paul Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things References: <8itjmm$e57$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20000622182147.02859.00000105@nso-cn.aol.com> <8ivqst$un$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: coren@spdcc.com Organization: Pigs in Blankets From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Lines: 15 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:21:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.237.113 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 961777311 24.128.237.113 (Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:21:51 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 12:21:51 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22169 In article <8ivqst$un$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, wrote: > > a) Orcs were well aware of the effect 'elf stuff' had on them and >actively avoided any skin to skin contact as best that they could. Notice that the Orcs were afraid to handle Merry's and Pippin's swords; these, while not strictly "Elvish", were recognized by them as containing "spells for the ruin of Mordor". Note also that Gollum is an entirely different kind of being from the Orcs, and therefore extrapolation of his reactions to theirs is a little dubious anyway. -- ---Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)------- "The optative passive rocks!" --Jeffrey William McKeough ###### From: darat9999@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 17:18:30 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8j064j$9tq$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8itjmm$e57$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20000622182147.02859.00000105@nso-cn.aol.com> <8ivqst$un$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.114.124.191 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Jun 23 17:18:30 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x54.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 162.114.124.191 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdarat9999 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22089 Mr. Coren comment: "Note also that Gollum is an entirely different kind of being from the Orcs, and therefore extrapolation of his reactions to theirs is a little dubious anyway." Dear Mr. Coren, I didn't quite understand this particular comment. Could you explain yourself a bit further? Thanks! Paul Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things References: <8itjmm$e57$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8ivqst$un$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8j064j$9tq$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: coren@spdcc.com Organization: Pigs in Blankets From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Lines: 21 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:39:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.237.113 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 961792777 24.128.237.113 (Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:39:37 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 16:39:37 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!netnews.com!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22170 In article <8j064j$9tq$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, wrote: > Mr. Coren comment: "Note also that Gollum is an entirely different >kind of being from the Orcs, and therefore extrapolation of his >reactions to theirs is a little dubious anyway." > > Dear Mr. Coren, > > I didn't quite understand this particular comment. Could you explain >yourself a bit further? Well, I missed the very beginning of this discussion, but the thrust seemed to be: Gollum experienced horrendous pain at the touch of the Elven rope (and by extrapolation Elvish objects in general), so why didn't the Orcs have similar reactions? My answer: Why would you assume that the Orcs would have the same kind of reactions as Gollum? Simply because they are both evil? -- ---Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)------- "Noise proves nothing. Often a hen who has merely laid an egg cackles as if she had laid an asteroid." -- Mark Twain ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8itjmm$e57$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20000622182147.02859.00000105@nso-cn.aol.com> <3952DEDF.1A0CDCDB@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4029.2901 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:42:02 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.112.187 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 961792922 12.78.112.187 (Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:42:02 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:42:02 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!204.127.161.3!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22112 "Opal Drake" wrote in message news:3952DEDF.1A0CDCDB@yahoo.com... > Gollum certainly wore it more often than Bilbo did, perhaps just > enough to effect a partial transformation into a shadow-creature. "Even Gollum was not wholly ruined. He had proved tougher than even one of the Wise would have guessed -a s a hobbit might. There was a little corner of his mind that was still his own, and light came through it, as through a chink in the dark: light out of the past. It was actually pleasant, I think, to hear a kindly voice again, bringing up memories of wind, and trees, and sun on the grass, and such forgotten things. 'But that, of course, would only make the evil part of him angrier in the end - unless it could be conquered. Unless it could be cured.' Gandalf sighed. 'Alas! there is little hope of that for him. Yet not no hope. No, not though he possessed the Ring so long, almost as far back as he can remember. For it was long since he had worn it much: in the black darkness it was seldom needed. Certainly he had never "faded"." FotR, The Shadow of the Past This seems to suggest that Gandalf, at least, did not believe that Gollum had begun the process of 'fading' and becoming a wraith, which he had described a few pages earlier; "And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings." ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8io2p8$c98$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Lines: 13 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4029.2901 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:42:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.112.187 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 961792923 12.78.112.187 (Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:42:03 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 20:42:03 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.20!wnmasters3!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22111 wrote in message news:8io2p8$c98$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > I believe a factor in this perceived difference in response > between the Orcs & Gollum vis a vis Elvish stuff was that Gollum > (apparently) was almost completely nude Say what? Where do you get this from? I think I vaguely recall a reference indicating that Gollum was clothed that I could try to dig up, but.... I certainly can't think of any which would indicate that he was not. ###### From: "Jonas Thorell" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8io2p8$c98$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Lines: 21 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 00:53:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.178.167.4 X-Complaints-To: news@bahnhof.se X-Trace: dummy.bahnhof.se 961807985 195.178.167.4 (Sat, 24 Jun 2000 02:53:05 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 02:53:05 MET DST Organization: Bahnhof Customer News Posting Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed.bahnhof.se!dummy.bahnhof.se!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22114 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > > I believe a factor in this perceived difference in response > > between the Orcs & Gollum vis a vis Elvish stuff was that Gollum > > (apparently) was almost completely nude > Say what? Where do you get this from? I think I vaguely recall > a reference indicating that Gollum was clothed that I could try to > dig up, but.... I certainly can't think of any which would indicate > that he was not. Only thing I recall is not from the books but from some paintings. In particulary one depicting the internal debate between Slinker and Stinker...there he was depicted wearing just a pair of shorts. I know, not canon in the least but that's the only reference I can think of right now. /Jonas ###### From: catfreckles@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 03:50:22 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <8j1b5p$4je$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8io2p8$c98$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.75.147.19 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Jun 24 03:50:22 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x57.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 168.75.147.19 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDcatfreckles Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22091 Re; Whether or not Gollum was clothed In one of the Tolkien calendars from the late '70s, the Hildebrand brothers depicted Gollum nude, but in "The Hobbit", during the riddles between Bilbo and Gollum, when Bilbo asked "What have I got in my pocket?"... "He[Gollum] thought of all the things he kept in his own pockets: fish-bones, goblins' teeth. wet shells, a bit of bat-wing, a sharp stone to sharpen his fangs on, and other nasty things." So at least in TH Gollum had pockets, which indicates clothing. I don't recall any other reference to Gollums' clothing or lack thereof. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (China Blue Bird of Happiness) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 02:22:18 -0700 Organization: Collective against Consensual Sanity Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <8io2p8$c98$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8j1b5p$4je$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!c150.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22165 / So at least in TH Gollum had pockets, which indicates clothing. I / don't recall any other reference to Gollums' clothing or lack thereof. The Black Gate is Closed ...For a moment he might have paused to consider Gollum, a tiny figure sprawling on the ground: there perhaps lay the famished skeleton of some child of Men, its ragged garment still clinging to it... -- CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 Now a text site map! http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/cacs/ pretty? http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/5079/ :)-free zone. Cthulu in '00: .../cacs/politics.html ###### Message-ID: <3954ED3B.B5AD23AF@yahoo.com> From: Opal Drake Reply-To: opalSPAMdrake@yahooBLOCK.com Organization: Left Wing Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things References: <8io2p8$c98$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8j1b5p$4je$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 12:17:47 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.179.194.196 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: ord-read.news.verio.net 961866998 207.179.194.196 (Sat, 24 Jun 2000 17:16:38 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 17:16:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!ord-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22197 China Blue Bird of Happiness wrote: > > / So at least in TH Gollum had pockets, which indicates clothing. I > / don't recall any other reference to Gollums' clothing or lack thereof. > > The Black Gate is Closed > > ...For a moment he might have paused to consider Gollum, a tiny figure > sprawling on the ground: there perhaps lay the famished skeleton of some > child of Men, its ragged garment still clinging to it... Besides, who wants to see Gollum's wang in the movie? I know I sure as hell don't! -- ****************************************************** The Opal Dragon To E-mail me, remove 'SPAM BLOCK' from return address. ###### From: catfreckles@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 20:06:02 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 36 Message-ID: <8j34b2$9mo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8io2p8$c98$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8j1b5p$4je$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3954ED3B.B5AD23AF@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.75.111.39 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Jun 24 20:06:02 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x70.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 168.75.111.39 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDcatfreckles Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22210 In article <3954ED3B.B5AD23AF@yahoo.com>, opalSPAMdrake@yahooBLOCK.com wrote: > > > China Blue Bird of Happiness wrote: > > > > / So at least in TH Gollum had pockets, which indicates clothing. I > > / don't recall any other reference to Gollums' clothing or lack thereof. > > > > The Black Gate is Closed > > > > ...For a moment he might have paused to consider Gollum, a tiny figure > > sprawling on the ground: there perhaps lay the famished skeleton of some > > child of Men, its ragged garment still clinging to it... > > Besides, who wants to see Gollum's wang in the movie? I know I > sure as hell don't! > > -------- I'm sure you speak for most of us!:) Thanks for the reference, I can't imagine Tolkien or Peter Jackson having anyone nude. But in defense of the Hildebrand Brothers, Gollum was not depicted with frontal nudity,just a side view and he was hunched over. I don't know why they thought he should be naked. The Cat > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: catfreckles@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:03:26 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 27 Message-ID: <8j37mn$c02$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8io2p8$c98$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8j1b5p$4je$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3954ED3B.B5AD23AF@yahoo.com> <8j34b2$9mo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.75.111.39 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Jun 24 21:03:26 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x62.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 168.75.111.39 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDcatfreckles Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22209 ... > > > > > -------- > I'm sure you speak for most of us!:) > > Thanks for the reference, I can't imagine Tolkien or Peter Jackson > having anyone nude. But in defense of the Hildebrand Brothers, Gollum > was not depicted with frontal nudity,just a side view and he was > hunched over. I don't know why they thought he should be naked. > > The Cat > > > > > > ------------- A small correction to my previous post, the paintings of TH and LoTR are by "The Brothers Hildebrandt", and the picture I was speaking of came from their 1976 Tolkien calendar. The Cat > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things References: <8itjmm$e57$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8j064j$9tq$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 22 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 961950928 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:35:28 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 11:35:28 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 16:35:28 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22366 Quoth coren@spdcc.com: > My answer: Why would you assume that the Orcs would have the same > kind of reactions as Gollum? Simply because they are both evil? That _was_ the idea behind my original comparison. However, that was really just a step along the way to the deeper question of what it was about the Elvish things that caused Gollum pain in the first place. (If we could explain the difference in reactions between Gollum and other "evil" creatures, it would presumably shed light on the nature of that pain.) I'm intrigued by the wraith idea (that is, that Gollum was at least a few steps along the road to fading), but one would think that Bilbo would have felt at least _some_ of the same effects, which he clearly didn't (he was too content in Rivendell to have even a subtle subconscious dislike of the place). If that isn't the explanation, then I really can't come up with a reason for his reaction at all. What about Elves would "rub off" on their ropes and even the leaves of their trees? Could it have something to do with Galadriel's use of Nenya? (Anyone know if Gollum had similar problems in Thranduil's realm?) Steuard Jensen ###### Message-ID: <3956527C.4C915DE3@yahoo.com> From: Opal Drake Reply-To: opalSPAMdrake@yahooBLOCK.com Organization: Left Wing Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things References: <8itjmm$e57$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8j064j$9tq$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 13:42:04 -0500 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.179.194.90 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: ord-read.news.verio.net 961958455 207.179.194.90 (Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:40:55 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:40:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!ord-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22376 Steuard Jensen wrote: > I'm intrigued by the wraith idea (that is, that Gollum was at least a > few steps along the road to fading), but one would think that Bilbo > would have felt at least _some_ of the same effects, which he clearly > didn't (he was too content in Rivendell to have even a subtle > subconscious dislike of the place). Hmm, I don't have FotR with me, but didn't Frodo see something Gollum- like in Bilbo when Bilbo asked to see the Ring? Seeing as how Frodo had worn the Ring a bit, he might have attuned himself somewhat to the spirit world already, and thus what he saw may have been a reflection of the warping that the Ring had inflicted on Bilbo. -- ****************************************************** The Opal Dragon To E-mail me, remove 'SPAM BLOCK' from return address. ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:00:09 +0300 Organization: Helsingin Yliopisto Lines: 20 Message-ID: <395664C9.3934695E@helsinki.fi> References: <8itjmm$e57$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8j064j$9tq$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tutka.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 961963233 17252 128.214.182.40 (25 Jun 2000 20:00:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jun 2000 20:00:33 GMT To: Steuard Jensen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed3.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22266 Steuard Jensen wrote: > > I'm intrigued by the wraith idea (that is, that Gollum was at least a > few steps along the road to fading), but one would think that Bilbo > would have felt at least _some_ of the same effects, which he clearly > didn't (he was too content in Rivendell to have even a subtle > subconscious dislike of the place). If that isn't the explanation, > then I really can't come up with a reason for his reaction at all. > What about Elves would "rub off" on their ropes and even the leaves of > their trees? Could it have something to do with Galadriel's use of > Nenya? (Anyone know if Gollum had similar problems in Thranduil's > realm?) > Steuard Jensen I am so proud that intrigued about my theory. Now could you please tell me if I can get the chapter or not. Tamim ###### From: "David" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:06:19 -0500 Organization: EISA (www.eisa.net.au) Lines: 38 Message-ID: <8j5vqu$n7f$1@news.eisa.net.au> References: <8itjmm$e57$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8j064j$9tq$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3956527C.4C915DE3@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pppr02-57.eisa.net.au X-Trace: news.eisa.net.au 961970847 23791 203.166.237.177 (25 Jun 2000 22:07:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.eisa.net.au NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 Jun 2000 22:07:27 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.zip.com.au!news.syd.ausbone.net!news.mel.ausbone.net!news.internex.net.au!news.labyrinth.net.au!news.eisa.net.au!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22304 "Opal Drake" wrote in message > > I'm intrigued by the wraith idea (that is, that Gollum was at least a > > few steps along the road to fading), but one would think that Bilbo > > would have felt at least _some_ of the same effects, which he clearly > > didn't (he was too content in Rivendell to have even a subtle > > subconscious dislike of the place). > > Hmm, I don't have FotR with me, but didn't Frodo see something Gollum- > like in Bilbo when Bilbo asked to see the Ring? Seeing as how Frodo > had worn the Ring a bit, he might have attuned himself somewhat to > the spirit world already, and thus what he saw may have been a reflection > of the warping that the Ring had inflicted on Bilbo. Your memory serves you well. The text runs along the lines of 'a shadow seemed to have fallen between them, and through it he found himself eyeing a little wrinkled creature with a hungry face and bony groping hands.' I think the whole duality concept is interesting. It is expressly unveiled in Gollum's little chat with himself in the passage of the marshes chapter. I think we see it hinted at in Frodo's vision of Bilbo 'through the shadow" and then again when Frodo and Sam capture Gollum. "For a moment it appeared to Sam that his master had grown ... a tall stern shadow, a mighty lord who hid his brightness in some grey cloud." We see this is a direct effect of the Ring as Tolkien adds "Yet the two were in some way akin and not alien: they could reach one another's minds." I dare say that had Bilbo been there we would have seen three akin creatures and not two. I don't have a point, I suppose :) but warping triggered me off into thinking it seems to me to be more a 'splitting' than a warping until the 'evil' portion of the dual character completely subsumes the 'good' portion. Rgs David ###### From: mnkohrz@gateway.net (Mnkohrz) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.gateway.net X-Admin: news@gateway.net Date: 25 Jun 2000 23:51:36 GMT References: <8io2p8$c98$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: http://www.compuserve.com Message-ID: <20000625195136.14860.00000579@ng-cc1.news.gateway.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22344 > Steuard's question: "why weren't the Orcs bothered by the Elvish cloaks and everything else? We know that Gollum was entirely unable to even deal with touching _lembas_ or their wrappers, and the rope from Lorien seem to have caused actual burning pain for him. What was it that made him so sensitive to Elvish things, and why did the Orcs not have similar problems?" Aren't we all overlooking the possibility that Gollum's reaction to Elvish materials might have been purely psychological? Gollum spent several months at least in Thrainduil's dungeons. Perhaps this, coming on top of his imprisonment in the Dark Tower, was enough to cause a psychosomatic reaction - Gollum felt pain because he thought he should. It is certainly true that Gollum bore the One Ring for many centuries and that would undoubtedly render him sensitive to any phenomena with power, good as well as evil. Recall that Gollum was able to sense the approach of the Nazgul long before the hobbits did in the Dead Marshes even though Frodo actually had the Ring. IMHO, it is probably impossible to isolate any one factor. Most likely it was a combination of factors that produced his reaction. Gollum was, after all, a very complex character. Regarding the reactions of the Orcs, however, a different thought occurs to me: The Orcs who carried the hobbits were Uruk-Hai. They had been specially bred and altered by Saruman. Perhaps this explains why they were less sensitive to the Elvish touch than other orcs? Mnkohrz ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Message-ID: References: <8io2p8$c98$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 25 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 03:16:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.210 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 961989361 208.170.95.210 (Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:16:01 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:16:01 CDT Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!falcon.america.net!hub.org!hub.org!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22357 In article , "Jonas Thorell" wrote: > Only thing I recall is not from the books but from some paintings. > In particulary one depicting the internal debate between > Slinker and Stinker...there he was depicted wearing just a > pair of shorts. I know, not canon in the least but that's the > only reference I can think of right now. When Bilbo met Gollum, his clothes, if any, must have been pinched from the Orcs; the clothes that he had worn when he entered the mountains must have long since rotted away. However, the Wood-elves certainly must have given Gollum clothes, if only to avoid giving offense to their own eyes! So his clothes must have been of elvish manufacture, though doubtless of a cloth at least tolerable to him. But by the time Frodo meets Gollum (Solmath 29, 3019) Gollum has been on the run for over eight months: eight months during which he must have been wearing the same clothes, as he hiked across the Anduin valley, swam the Anduin, climbed up into the mountains, entered Moria (where he spent about 4 months!), followed the Company out, and swam repeatedly in the Anduin again (proving once again his Stoorish blood, I guess); none of this can have been particularly good for his clothes, assuming them to have been perfectly new in Forelithe 3018. David Salo ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things References: <8itjmm$e57$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3956527C.4C915DE3@yahoo.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 23 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 961991536 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:52:16 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:52:16 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 03:52:16 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22361 Quoth opalSPAMdrake@yahooBLOCK.com: > Steuard Jensen wrote: > > ...one would think that Bilbo would have felt at least _some_ of > > the same effects, which he clearly didn't (he was too content in > > Rivendell to have even a subtle subconscious dislike... > Hmm, I don't have FotR with me, but didn't Frodo see something > Gollum- like in Bilbo when Bilbo asked to see the Ring? Yes, but I was wondering specifically if Bilbo showed any signs of a strong dislike of Elvish things (similar to Gollum's). My feeling is that he didn't have any negative reactions of the sort at all; I don't know whether Frodo's Gollum-like vision of Bilbo gives much information on this particular question. This means that the basic question still remains: what was it that made Gollum feel such pain when touched by Elvish rope? Or such hatred of the smell of _mallorn_ leaves or the taste of _lembas_? The comparison with Bilbo suggests that it was not only association with the Ring; my initial comparison with Orcs suggests that it wasn't a matter of being in some sense "evil"... so what is it? Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 24 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 961992721 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:12:01 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:12:01 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 04:12:01 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!128.174.5.49!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22360 Quoth dsalo@usa.net (David Salo): > But by the time Frodo meets Gollum (Solmath 29, 3019) Gollum has > been on the run for over eight months: eight months during which he > must have been wearing the same clothes Not necessarily. We know that Gollum survived in Moria for some time by "thieving dangerously". Now, it strikes me that if he could have gotten his hands on some Orcish clothes, he would have had at least a slightly easier time going unnoticed. I would not be surprised to learn that he had at some point managed to get his hands on at least a partial Orcish wardrobe. In fact, finding different clothes may have been an important _early_ step for Gollum after his escape: I would be rather surprised if the Elves provided him with black clothes that would make him harder to see in the darkness. He may have been able to steal clothes from the human settlements at the western edge of Mirkwood, or he may even have been _given_ replacement clothes by the Orcs who rescued him (before they parted company). At any rate, I would guess that Gollum found a change of clothes sometime before meeting Frodo... out of necessity, if nothing else. Steuard Jensen ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things References: <8io2p8$c98$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <20000625195136.14860.00000579@ng-cc1.news.gateway.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 15 Message-ID: <%RA55.28$v3.585@uchinews> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 961993211 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:20:11 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 23:20:11 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 04:20:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22355 Quoth mnkohrz@gateway.net (Mnkohrz): > Aren't we all overlooking the possibility that Gollum's > reaction to Elvish materials might have been purely psychological? I've considered that, but I keep sticking at the point where Sam ties Gollum with the rope from Lorien. My initial thought is that Gollum wouldn't have known from the start that the hobbits were carrying ropes from Lorien: his reaction to those ropes would have been at best a guess. As you point out, his time in Thranduil's prisons may have given him experience with Elvish ropes, but I just feel that his reaction was too intense to be based on a mere guess at the rope's origin, however safe the guess seemed to be. Any further evidence for or against the psychosomatic explanation would be helpful. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: Ian McDonald Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 11:22:30 +0100 Organization: University of Durham, Durham, UK. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <39572EE6.930A2617@dur.ac.uk> References: <8iojb0$ptu$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: edsb18.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,zh Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22359 > In article , > "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: > > "Steuard Jensen" wrote in message > > news:QMW25.282$v3.3230@uchinews... > > > > > We know that Gollum was entirely unable to even deal with > > > touching _lembas_ or their wrappers, and the rope from Lorien > > > seem to have caused actual burning pain for him. What was it > > > that made him so sensitive to Elvish things, and why did the Orcs > > > not have similar problems? (Or did they just grit their teeth and > > > bear it?) > > > > "...in one hand it held a sword, the very light of which was a > > bitter pain..." > > RotK, The Tower of Cirith Ungol > > umm... gollum actually tried to *eat* lembas (though he spat it out as "ashess and dusst"). see 'the taming of smeagol'. i believe the rope was inherently magical (it could untie itself when needed). finally, smeagol was a terrible drama-queen anyway. ian ###### From: mnkohrz@gateway.net (Mnkohrz) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 26 Jun 2000 11:19:07 GMT References: <%RA55.28$v3.585@uchinews> Organization: http://www.compuserve.com Message-ID: <20000626071907.28931.00000506@ng-fl1.news.gateway.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!netnews.com!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22345 >Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things >From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) >Quoth mnkohrz@gateway.net (Mnkohrz): >> Aren't we all overlooking the possibility that Gollum's reaction to Elvish materials might have been purely psychological? > >I've considered that, but I keep sticking at the point where Sam ties Gollum with the rope from Lorien. My initial thought is that Gollum wouldn't have known from the start that the hobbits were carrying ropes from Lorien: his reaction to those ropes would have been at best a guess. As you point out, his time in Thranduil's prisons may have given him experience with Elvish ropes, but I just feel that his reaction was too intense to be based on a mere guess at the rope's origin, however safe the guess seemed to be. Any further evidence for or against the psychosomatic explanation would be helpful. :) > > Steuard Jensen Not necessarily. We know that Gollum had a superior sense of smell. He was able to recognize a leaf from Lorien by its scent.. ("Gollum sniffed at the leaf and his face changed: a spasm of disgust came over it, and a hint of his old malice. 'Smeagol smells it!' he said. 'Leaves out of the elf-country, gah! They stinks. He climbed in those trees, and he couldn't wash the smell off his hands, my nice hands.'") The elves who made the ropes also would have certainly left their scent on it. It's quite possible that Gollum could identify the rope as Elvish in origin simply by scent which in turn would have caused the pyschosomatic reaction. Mnkohrz. ###### From: darat9999@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:08:28 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <8j7o4f$bdo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8itjmm$e57$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8ivqst$un$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8j064j$9tq$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.114.124.191 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Jun 26 14:08:28 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x59.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 162.114.124.191 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdarat9999 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22281 Mr. Coren's answer and question: "Well, I missed the very beginning of this discussion, but the thrust seemed to be: Gollum experienced horrendous pain at the touch of the Elven rope (and by extrapolation Elvish objects in general), so why didn't the Orcs have similar reactions? My answer: Why would you assume that the Orcs would have the same kind of reactions as Gollum? Simply because they are both evil?" Dear Mr. Coren, Thank's for giving me that explanation. In answer to your question, both Gollum and Orcs evidence a, shall we say, strong dislike for all things 'Elvish'. Gollum, as you pointed out, is very verbal when objecting to 'Elvish Stuff'; the Orcs, at first glance, seem not to have this same extreme reaction. Why is that? Some others have gone into metaphysical reasons for this apparent discrepency. I, OTOH, have taken a more practical approach to this question. Take Care, Paul Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: darat9999@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:42:30 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <8j7q4h$cuk$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8io2p8$c98$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.114.124.191 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Jun 26 14:42:30 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x66.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 162.114.124.191 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdarat9999 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22282 Conrad's comment: "Say what? Where do you get this from? I think I vaguely recall a reference indicating that Gollum was clothed that I could try to dig up, but.... I certainly can't think of any which would indicate that he was not." Dear Conrad, I have now come to conclusion he wore a few rags most of time. But I will stand by jist of my point, which was that Gollum had much more exposed skin than Orc shock trooper and thus more chance for Elvish items to come into direct contact with his skin. See Ya, Paul Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Joe Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 12:00:34 -0400 Organization: University of Louisville Lines: 19 Message-ID: <39577E22.4D019197@yahoo.com> References: <8itjmm$e57$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3956527C.4C915DE3@yahoo.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lorien.kdp-baptist.louisville.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.louisville.edu 962035018 31446 136.165.136.64 (26 Jun 2000 15:56:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.louisville.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Jun 2000 15:56:58 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5-15 i686) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!newshub2.rdc1.sfba.home.com!news.home.com!feeder.via.net!news.he.net!news.louisville.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22368 Steuard Jensen wrote: > > Quoth opalSPAMdrake@yahooBLOCK.com: > > Steuard Jensen wrote: > > > ...one would think that Bilbo would have felt at least _some_ of > > > the same effects, which he clearly didn't (he was too content in > > > Rivendell to have even a subtle subconscious dislike... > > > Hmm, I don't have FotR with me, but didn't Frodo see something > > Gollum- like in Bilbo when Bilbo asked to see the Ring? > > Yes, but I was wondering specifically if Bilbo showed any signs of a > strong dislike of Elvish things (similar to Gollum's). My feeling is > that he didn't have any negative reactions of the sort at all; I don't > know whether Frodo's Gollum-like vision of Bilbo gives much > information on this particular question. > Bilbo didn't have any trouble handling Sting. ###### From: Stug Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:02:34 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 27 Message-ID: <395CE0BA.F38DF19B@telerama.com> References: <%RA55.28$v3.585@uchinews> <20000626071907.28931.00000506@ng-fl1.news.gateway.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!fr.usenet-edu.net!usenet-edu.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22558 Mnkohrz wrote: > The elves who made the ropes also would have certainly > left their scent on it. It's quite possible that Gollum could identify the > rope as Elvish in origin simply by scent which in turn would have caused the > pyschosomatic reaction. That and the likelihood that the ropes were made from Elvish hemp or some other elvish plant, so the ropes were essentially no different than the leaf wrappings--he could smell them. Initially, I favored the hypothesis that Gollum may have been faking it (I agree with Ian McDonald[¹] that Gollum was a drama-queen), but I thought about how Sam used the 'pain' of the ropes as a threat to get Gollum to comply. The threats were effective, so if he had been faking, I doubt he would have continued the charade. ¹Is this the Ian McDonald formerly of King Crimson and Foreigner? Or was that Ian MacDonald? Stug -- "I don't know half of you half as well as I would like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve". -- BB ###### From: Ian McDonald Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs and Elvish things Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 20:24:10 +0100 Organization: University of Durham, Durham, UK. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <395CF3DA.84E15A56@dur.ac.uk> References: <%RA55.28$v3.585@uchinews> <20000626071907.28931.00000506@ng-fl1.news.gateway.net> <395CE0BA.F38DF19B@telerama.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: edsb18.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,zh Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed.easynews.net!easynews.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:22703 Stug wrote: > > ¹Is this the Ian McDonald formerly of King Crimson and Foreigner? Or was that Ian > MacDonald? > > Stug I have never played in a soft rock band ! Ian