Message-ID: <3944CA85.B4BF46BC@hotmail.com> From: Creole X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Riding Elf-fashion Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p19.j2.actcom.co.il Lines: 41 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:33:25 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.114.47.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 960806017 192.114.47.10 (Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:33:37 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:33:37 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21451 I admit that it was the comment re PJ refilming the scene with Gandalf on Shadowfax that brought the question to mind, but I think it's a legitimate comment anyway. :) Elves apparently do not need saddle or bridle to ride horses. Pippin comments on Gandalf riding Shadowfax: 'I did not know you rode bare-back, Gandalf,' he said. 'You haven't a saddle or a bridle!' I do not ride elf-fashion, except on Shadowfax,' said Gandalf. There is also Legolas, when first mounting Arod: But Legolas asked them to take off saddle and rein. 'I need them not,' he said, and leaped lightly up, and to their wonder Arod was tame and willing beneath him, moving here and there with but a spoken word: such was the elvish way with all good beasts. Contrast this with the comments regarding Asfaloth, the white horse of Ar--er, Glorfindel: In the dusk its headstall flickered and flashed... ...the rider had reined his horse and halted... 'You shall ride my horse,' said Glorfindel. 'I will shorten the stirrups up to the saddle-skirts...' His hand left the bridle and gripped the edge of his sword... ...the bells upon the harness rang wild and shrill. So why does Glorfindel ride Asfaloth with bridle and saddle? Surely it can't be just so that Frodo can safely ride Asfaloth later... can it? :) Creole, wondering if perhaps Asfaloth wasn't a "good beast" ;) ###### From: "Morgil" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3944CA85.B4BF46BC@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Riding Elf-fashion Lines: 19 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:04:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.197.67.104 X-Trace: read2.inet.fi 960815062 194.197.67.104 (Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:04:22 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:04:22 EET DST Organization: Sonera corp Internet services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!newspeer.highwayone.net!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!nntp.inet.fi!central.inet.fi!inet.fi!read2.inet.fi.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21477 Creole kirjoitti viestissä <3944CA85.B4BF46BC@hotmail.com>... >So why does Glorfindel ride Asfaloth with bridle and saddle? >Surely it can't be just so that Frodo can safely ride Asfaloth >later... can it? :) It must be just that. Many elves had a gift of foreseeing. So if Glorfindel had foreseen that he has to give his horse to someone who is not on good enough condition to ride without a saddle, of course he had to take one with him. This is the only logical explanation. :) >Creole, wondering if perhaps Asfaloth wasn't a "good beast" ;) Of course a "white" horse is a good beast. Duh! :) Morgil ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Riding Elf-fashion Date: 12 Jun 2000 15:24:31 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 24 Message-ID: <8i2vbf$9bd$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> References: <3944CA85.B4BF46BC@hotmail.com> <3944f797@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: sirppi.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 960823471 9581 128.214.205.27 (12 Jun 2000 15:24:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 2000 15:24:31 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21487 Robert Brady wrote: > Creole wrote: >>So why does Glorfindel ride Asfaloth with bridle and saddle? >>Surely it can't be just so that Frodo can safely ride Asfaloth >>later... can it? :) > I think there is a letter where Tolkien admits this is just an error - he > wrote the bit about Glorfindel before he decided elves rode without saddles. > -- > Robert I think a good story internal explanation would be that Glorofindel was a Noldo, Legolas and most of the elves of TA were Teleri. Noldor were stronger and sturdier. Legolas used a knife and no armor. Noldor used Helmets swords armor etc. I can't imagine Fingolfin or Feänor running lightly on snow: They would have done what Boromir and Aragorn did, only better. In short Maybe Glorofindel couldn't ride without a saddle or maybe asfaloth was an elvish equivalent of a warhorse and Glorofindel needed a saddle to properly fight while on horseback. Tamim ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Riding Elf-fashion References: <3944CA85.B4BF46BC@hotmail.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 35 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 960823537 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:25:37 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:25:37 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:25:37 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21490 Quoth Creole : > Contrast this with the comments regarding Asfaloth, the white > horse of Ar--er, Glorfindel: :) > In the dusk its headstall flickered and flashed... ... > His hand left the bridle and gripped the edge of his > sword... In Letter 211, Tolkien responded to a reader who was bothered by the fact that Glorfindel used a "bridle and bit" (in the first edition), when Elves ride without bit, bridle, or saddle. He said: I could, I suppose, answer: 'a trick-cyclist can ride a bicycle with handle-bars!' But actually _bridle_ was casually and carelessly used for what I suppose should have been called a _headstall_. Or rather, since _bit_ was added (I 221) long ago (Chapter 12 was written very early) I had not considered the natural ways of Elves with animals. Glorfindel's horse would have had an ornimental _headstall_, carrying a plume, and with the straps studded with jewels and small bells; but Glor. would certainly not use a _bit_. I will change _bridle and bit_ to _headstall_. Given this, I suspect that _some_ of the other references you mentioned (such as "bridle" still quoted above) may remain as oversights. However, I'd go a step further: it sounds to me from this letter that Tolkien was most against the notion of Elves using a bit, as this would be seen as cruel to the horse, perhaps. I would not be surprised if Glorfindel, sent out to find the Ringbearer and bring him to Rivendell, might have used a saddle and headstall in case it became necessary for the Bearer to ride. Steuard Jensen ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Riding Elf-fashion Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 12 Jun 2000 15:43:59 GMT References: <8i2vbf$9bd$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000612114359.02397.00002917@nso-ck.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!oleane.net!oleane!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21483 In article <8i2vbf$9bd$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, Tamim writes: >I think a good story internal explanation would be that Glorofindel was >a Noldo, Legolas and most of the elves of TA were Teleri. Noldor were >stronger and sturdier. Legolas used a knife and no armor. Noldor used >Helmets swords armor etc. I can't imagine Fingolfin or Feänor running >lightly on snow: They would have done what Boromir and Aragorn did, only >better. In at least one place it's stated that the House of Hador was of greater stature than the Noldor. Russ ###### From: Robert Brady Subject: Re: Riding Elf-fashion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3944CA85.B4BF46BC@hotmail.com> Reply-To: rwb197@ecs.soton.ac.uk X-URL: http://www.aber.mud.org/ X-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991124 ("Blueprint") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.11 (i686)) NNTP-Posting-Host: sash.ecs.soton.ac.uk Message-ID: <3944f797@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Date: 12 Jun 2000 15:45:43 GMT X-Trace: 12 Jun 2000 15:45:43 GMT, sash.ecs.soton.ac.uk Lines: 10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news-spool.soton.ac.uk!news.ecs.soton.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21478 Creole wrote: >So why does Glorfindel ride Asfaloth with bridle and saddle? >Surely it can't be just so that Frodo can safely ride Asfaloth >later... can it? :) I think there is a letter where Tolkien admits this is just an error - he wrote the bit about Glorfindel before he decided elves rode without saddles. -- Robert ###### Message-ID: <39451179.67E7C3A4@hotmail.com> From: Creole X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Riding Elf-fashion References: <3944CA85.B4BF46BC@hotmail.com> <3944f797@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p26.j3.actcom.co.il Lines: 13 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 18:36:09 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.114.47.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 960824176 192.114.47.10 (Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:36:16 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:36:16 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21475 Robert Brady wrote: > >So why does Glorfindel ride Asfaloth with bridle and saddle? > >Surely it can't be just so that Frodo can safely ride Asfaloth > >later... can it? :) > > I think there is a letter where Tolkien admits this is just an error - he > wrote the bit about Glorfindel before he decided elves rode without saddles. Really? Can any of our experts cite this letter, or praps quote it? Creole ###### From: "Jim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Riding Elf-fashion Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 17:51:33 -0700 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 13 Message-ID: <8i3497$arn$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <8i2vbf$9bd$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <20000612114359.02397.00002917@nso-ck.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-206.calcium.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk 960828519 11127 62.136.19.206 (12 Jun 2000 16:48:39 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 12 Jun 2000 16:48:39 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21482 Russ wrote in message <20000612114359.02397.00002917@nso-ck.aol.com>... >In at least one place it's stated that the House of Hador was of greater >stature than the Noldor. That might just mean that they are larger, and not nessacarily stronger. And the comparisson was with Aragorn and Boromir, men of the third age. Jim D ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Riding Elf-fashion References: <3944CA85.B4BF46BC@hotmail.com> <3944f797@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <39451179.67E7C3A4@hotmail.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 18 Message-ID: <6Ti15.126$v3.1662@uchinews> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 960870978 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:36:18 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:36:18 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 04:36:18 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21493 Quoth Creole : > Robert Brady wrote: > > I think there is a letter where Tolkien admits this is just an > > error - he wrote the bit about Glorfindel before he decided elves > > rode without saddles. > Really? Can any of our experts cite this letter, or praps quote > it? I'm fairly sure that the letter I cited earlier in this thread is the one Robert was referring to. It doesn't really address the question of saddle or bridle, though. I suspect that the scene would have been quite a bit different if Tolkien had written it near the end of the creation of LotR rather than near the beginning. As it is, I think that the most likely explanation for Glorfindel's saddle and bridle was their potential use by the Ringbearer, if he was found and in need. Steuard Jensen ###### From: Anthony Rebello Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Riding Elf-fashion Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 22:01:16 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <8i6av3$k68$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <3944CA85.B4BF46BC@hotmail.com> <3944f797@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <8i2vbf$9bd$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.252.37.7 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Jun 13 22:01:16 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x66.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 165.252.37.7 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDarebello Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21577 In article <8i2vbf$9bd$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, Tamim wrote: > I think a good story internal explanation would be that Glorofindel was > a Noldo, Legolas and most of the elves of TA were Teleri. Noldor were > stronger and sturdier. Legolas used a knife and no armor. Noldor used > Helmets swords armor etc. I can't imagine Fingolfin or Feänor running > lightly on snow: They would have done what Boromir and Aragorn did, only > better. In short Maybe Glorofindel couldn't ride without a saddle or > maybe asfaloth was an elvish equivalent of a warhorse and Glorofindel > needed a saddle to properly fight while on horseback. > > Tamim > > Was there much use of Cavalry by the Noldor in Belriand? I seem to remember a lot of references to people running in the battle scenes not riding. My picture of first age battles is hordes of foot soldiers slogging it out with broadswords Braveheart style. The noldor seemed to do a lot of riding while traveling however so I might be wrong. Nevertheless I like the story internal explanation that the Noldor used saddles and the Teleri rode bareback. Maybe only the wood-elves of Mirkwood and there close kindred rode bareback. I can't imagine a green elf of Ossiriand using a saddle. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: tar_elenion@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Riding Elf-fashion Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 04:15:18 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 36 Message-ID: <8i70sb$41a$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <3944CA85.B4BF46BC@hotmail.com> <3944f797@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <39451179.67E7C3A4@hotmail.com> <6Ti15.126$v3.1662@uchinews> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.254.120 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Jun 14 04:15:18 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 pinol1.sfba.home.com[18015020] (Traffic-Server/1.1.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cSMi p s ]), 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.254.120 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21576 In article <6Ti15.126$v3.1662@uchinews>, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > Quoth Creole : > > Robert Brady wrote: > > > I think there is a letter where Tolkien admits this is just an > > > error - he wrote the bit about Glorfindel before he decided elves > > > rode without saddles. > > > Really? Can any of our experts cite this letter, or praps quote > > it? > > I'm fairly sure that the letter I cited earlier in this thread is the > one Robert was referring to. It doesn't really address the question > of saddle or bridle, though. I suspect that the scene would have been > quite a bit different if Tolkien had written it near the end of the > creation of LotR rather than near the beginning. As it is, I think > that the most likely explanation for Glorfindel's saddle and bridle > was their potential use by the Ringbearer, if he was found and in > need. > Steuard Jensen > In the aforementioned Letter, JRRT does admit to 'error' as far as the bit and bridle are concerned. He even says he will change that to a headstall in the revision. However he does not mention the saddle at all. I think this is rather revealing. Not that Glorfindel somehow knew that the ringbearer was injured and would need to ride his horse (to many 'ifs') but rather more likely that a saddle is much too useful in any mounted combat situation, the Noldor (given their historical penchant for cavalry ) would know this. I think it more likely that (among the Noldor at least) they may have ridden bareback for pleasure, but when expecting combat (or in war) a saddle would be a given (occam's razor). Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: tar_elenion@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Riding Elf-fashion Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 04:24:19 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 56 Message-ID: <8i71d6$45d$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <3944CA85.B4BF46BC@hotmail.com> <3944f797@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <8i2vbf$9bd$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i6av3$k68$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.254.106 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Jun 14 04:24:19 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 pinol1.sfba.home.com[1801501E] (Traffic-Server/2.2 [uNcMs f p eN:t cSMi p s ]), 1.0 x60.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.254.106 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!psiuk-p4!uknet!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21575 In article <8i6av3$k68$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Anthony Rebello wrote: > In article <8i2vbf$9bd$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, > Tamim wrote: > > > I think a good story internal explanation would be that Glorofindel > was > > a Noldo, Legolas and most of the elves of TA were Teleri. Noldor were > > stronger and sturdier. Legolas used a knife and no armor. Noldor used > > Helmets swords armor etc. I can't imagine Fingolfin or Feänor running > > lightly on snow: They would have done what Boromir and Aragorn did, > only > > better. In short Maybe Glorofindel couldn't ride without a saddle or > > maybe asfaloth was an elvish equivalent of a warhorse and Glorofindel > > needed a saddle to properly fight while on horseback. > > > > Tamim > > This is a more likely explanation. I think that when riding for pleasure the Eldar would ride bareback. When expecting to fight from horseback a saddle would be used. No matter how good a rider is, the saddle and stirrup provide too great of an advantage over the lack thereof in any combative situation. > > > Was there much use of Cavalry by the Noldor in Belriand? I seem to > remember a lot of references to people running in the battle scenes not > riding. My picture of first age battles is hordes of foot soldiers > slogging it out with broadswords Braveheart style. > The noldor seemed to do a lot of riding while traveling however so I > might be wrong. Nevertheless I like the story internal explanation > that the Noldor used saddles and the Teleri rode bareback. Maybe only > the wood-elves of Mirkwood and there close kindred rode bareback. I > can't imagine a green elf of Ossiriand using a saddle. > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. > The Noldor were had large cavalry forces in Beleriand. Both those of Hithlum and of the March patrolled Ard-galen with their cavalry. Fingon drove off Glaurung with his horsed archers. Maedhros, by way of apology, supplied Fingolfin with many horses that had been brought over from Aman on the ships of the Teleri. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Riding Elf-fashion References: <3944CA85.B4BF46BC@hotmail.com> <39451179.67E7C3A4@hotmail.com> <6Ti15.126$v3.1662@uchinews> <8i70sb$41a$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 12 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 960962445 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 14 Jun 2000 01:00:45 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 01:00:45 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 06:00:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!codeine.org!grolier!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21572 Quoth tar_elenion@my-deja.com: > ...but rather more likely that a saddle is much too useful in any > mounted combat situation A very good point. I considered that when posting, but I felt bound by Tolkien's comments on "riding Elf-fashion". As I think about it more, though, I have to agree with you: saddle and stirrups were (as I recall) the breakthrough that made mounted combat really effective, and no amount of skill in riding could fully make up for their lack. Glorfindel _must_ have been aware of this when he rode to face the Nine, as you say. Steuard Jensen ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Riding Elf-fashion Date: 14 Jun 2000 23:31:00 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 40 Message-ID: <6u3dmguezv.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3944CA85.B4BF46BC@hotmail.com> <3944f797@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <8i2vbf$9bd$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i6av3$k68$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8i71d6$45d$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 961018260 1053 10.0.3.2 (14 Jun 2000 21:31:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 14 Jun 2000 21:31:00 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21637 tar_elenion@my-deja.com writes: > In article <8i6av3$k68$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > Anthony Rebello wrote: > > In article <8i2vbf$9bd$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, > > Tamim wrote: > > > better. In short Maybe Glorofindel couldn't ride without a saddle or > > > maybe asfaloth was an elvish equivalent of a warhorse and > Glorofindel > > > needed a saddle to properly fight while on horseback. > > This is a more likely explanation. I think that when riding for > pleasure the Eldar would ride bareback. When expecting to fight from > horseback a saddle would be used. No matter how good a rider is, the > saddle and stirrup provide too great of an advantage over the lack > thereof in any combative situation. But did they actually fight mounted? Did they fight directly from horseback (cavalry) or did they use horses to get around fast, but fight off-horse (mounted infantry)? > > Was there much use of Cavalry by the Noldor in Belriand? I seem to > > The Noldor were had large cavalry forces in Beleriand. Both those of > Hithlum and of the March patrolled Ard-galen with their cavalry. Patrolling is not fighting. And speed is mainly needed to get back for reporting fast. > drove off Glaurung with his horsed archers. Archery does not require a great hold like man-to-man fighting. Not even a recoil like in a gun. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic ###### From: Aelfwine@erols.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Riding Elf-fashion Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 04:13:21 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 31 Message-ID: <8i9l4n$2r3$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <3944CA85.B4BF46BC@hotmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.172.149.69 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Jun 15 04:13:21 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.7 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x52.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 207.172.149.69 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDaelfwine2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed2.skycache.com!newsfeed3.skycache.com!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21654 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > However, I'd go a step further: it sounds to me from this > letter that Tolkien was most against the notion of Elves using a bit, > as this would be seen as cruel to the horse, perhaps. And I'll go a step further still: whether regarded as cruel or no, Elves may simply have had no need for bit or bridle, as it appears that they could communicate with horses (at least). In a rider intended for an a draft version of the chapter "The White Rider" of _LotR_ (published in _Vinyar Tengwar_ 27, pp. 40-41), Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli debate what to do with their horses before entering Fangorn Forest. (At this stage of the writing of the chapter, the horses did not flee during the encounter with the old man by the campfire.) The matter is settled in this manner: "'Let the horses judge!' said Legolas. 'I will speak to them.' Running lightly over the grass he returned to the tree under which they had camped, and going to the horses he untethered them, fondling their heads and whispering in their ears. 'Go free now, Hasofel and Arod!' he said aloud. 'Wait for us awhile, but no longer than seems good to you!' "The horses looked solemnly at him for a moment, and then walked together behind the Elf towards the river-bank. There they stood quietly like folk on a doorstep when friends are taking their leave...." Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: tar_elenion@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Riding Elf-fashion Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 00:04:31 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 74 Message-ID: <8ibqu6$n4h$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <3944CA85.B4BF46BC@hotmail.com> <3944f797@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <8i2vbf$9bd$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <8i6av3$k68$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8i71d6$45d$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <6u3dmguezv.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.254.120 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Jun 16 00:04:31 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 pinol1.sfba.home.com[18015020] (Traffic-Server/1.1.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cSMi p s ]), 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.254.120 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!news.vas-net.net!195.238.2.15.MISMATCH!skynet.be!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21749 In article <6u3dmguezv.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin wrote: > tar_elenion@my-deja.com writes: > > > In article <8i6av3$k68$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > Anthony Rebello wrote: > > > In article <8i2vbf$9bd$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>, > > > Tamim wrote: > > > > better. In short Maybe Glorofindel couldn't ride without a saddle or > > > > maybe asfaloth was an elvish equivalent of a warhorse and > > Glorofindel > > > > needed a saddle to properly fight while on horseback. > > > > This is a more likely explanation. I think that when riding for > > pleasure the Eldar would ride bareback. When expecting to fight from > > horseback a saddle would be used. No matter how good a rider is, the > > saddle and stirrup provide too great of an advantage over the lack > > thereof in any combative situation. > > But did they actually fight mounted? Did they fight directly from > horseback (cavalry) or did they use horses to get around fast, but > fight off-horse (mounted infantry)? > "Then Celegorm turned his horse, and spurred it upon Beren, purposing to ride him down...". "Then Beren throttled Curufin; but death was near him, for Celegorm RODE upon him with a spear." "By ill chance, at that place in the outworks stood Gwindor of Nargothrond, the brother of Gelmir. Now his wrath was kindled to madness, and he leapt forth on horseback, and many riders with him; and they pursued the heralds and slew them, and drove on deep into the main host." > > > Was there much use of Cavalry by the Noldor in Belriand? I seem to > > > > The Noldor were had large cavalry forces in Beleriand. Both those of > > Hithlum and of the March patrolled Ard-galen with their cavalry. > > Patrolling is not fighting. And speed is mainly needed to get back for > reporting fast. > "Fingolfin and Fingon held Hithlum... and their CAVALRY rode upon [Ard- galen] even to the shadow of Thangorodrim...". "Between the arms of Gelion was the ward of Maglor and... the Noldor held strength of CAVALRY in the plains at that place." "The watchfires burned low, and the guards were few; and on the plain few were waking in the camps of the horsemen of Hithlum." These references are to CAVALRY not mounted infantry. > > drove off Glaurung with his horsed archers. > > Archery does not require a great hold like man-to-man fighting. Not > even a recoil like in a gun. > While a horse archer may not need as firm a seat as a lancer or swordsman the saddle nonetheless provides a much more stable and secure platform from which to shoot. > -- > Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ > Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Riding Elf-fashion Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 22:52:02 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 15 Message-ID: <2163-39499652-26@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <8ibqu6$n4h$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAta/+2wDvdX85tmK/mdqol4/Md5ICFHc4QSy1Hp0bXETsaKWmcBg75qCi Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21733 tar_elenion wrote: >"Then Celegorm turned his horse, and >spurred it upon Beren, purposing to ride >him down...". Ah, but you cut out the most relevant passage to this discussion here: "...but Curufin swerving stooped and lifted Luthien to his _saddle_..." So it would appear that the Noldor did indeed use saddles, or at least Feanor's Wanker Sons (tm), at any rate. --Dave ###### From: raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Riding Elf-fashion References: <3944CA85.B4BF46BC@hotmail.com> <3944f797@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <8i2vbf$9bd$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 5 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 09:02:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.62.185.13 X-Complaints-To: abuse@asiaonline.net X-Trace: news.interact.net.au 961146154 203.62.185.13 (Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:02:34 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:02:34 EST Organization: an Asia Online client - http://www.asiaonline.net/ X-Received-Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:02:34 EST (news.interact.net.au) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.can.connect.com.au!news.interact.net.au!raka Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21851 >lightly on snow: They would have done what Boromir and Aragorn did, only >better. In short Maybe Glorofindel couldn't ride without a saddle or Don't be sure about the "only better" bit. Men are supposed to be stronger than Elves. The Noldor straight out of Valinor were no ordinary elves, but I still think their gifts lay mostly elswhere. ###### From: Tamim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Riding Elf-fashion Date: 16 Jun 2000 10:57:07 GMT Organization: University of Helsinki Lines: 15 Message-ID: <8id163$cn7$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> References: <3944CA85.B4BF46BC@hotmail.com> <3944f797@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <8i2vbf$9bd$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: sirppi.helsinki.fi X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 961153027 13031 128.214.205.27 (16 Jun 2000 10:57:07 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 16 Jun 2000 10:57:07 GMT User-Agent: tin/1.4.2-20000205 ("Possession") (UNIX) (OSF1/V4.0 (alpha)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21812 Adrian Ratnapala wrote: >>lightly on snow: They would have done what Boromir and Aragorn did, only >>better. In short Maybe Glorofindel couldn't ride without a saddle or > Don't be sure about the "only better" bit. Men are supposed to > be stronger than Elves. The Noldor straight out of Valinor were > no ordinary elves, but I still think their gifts lay mostly elswhere. I don't know about you others, but my impression about the first age Noldor has aways been that they were tall strong and terrible to look at, even compared to men. They waged WAR with Morgoth for 500 hundred years mostly with physical means. Tamim ###### From: Anthony Rebello Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Riding Elf-fashion Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:01:02 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8ilg3o$n3f$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <3944CA85.B4BF46BC@hotmail.com> <3944f797@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <8i2vbf$9bd$2@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.252.37.7 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Jun 19 16:01:02 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x59.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 165.252.37.7 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDarebello Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.enteract.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21912 In article , raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) wrote: > >lightly on snow: They would have done what Boromir and Aragorn did, only > >better. In short Maybe Glorofindel couldn't ride without a saddle or > Don't be sure about the "only better" bit. Men are supposed to > be stronger than Elves. The Noldor straight out of Valinor were > no ordinary elves, but I still think their gifts lay mostly elswhere. > Most of the Noldor in Beleriand came straight out of Valinor but I read in one of the HoME volumes that Feanor and his wanker sons came straight out of Compton. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: tar_elenion@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Riding Elf-fashion Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 22:58:47 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8iosuu$10g$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8ibqu6$n4h$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <2163-39499652-26@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.254.120 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Jun 20 22:58:47 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt; AtHome0107) X-Http-Proxy: HTTP/1.1 pinol1.sfba.home.com[18015020] (Traffic-Server/1.1.7 [uNcMs f p eN:t cSMi p s ]), 1.0 x58.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 24.4.254.120 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtar_elenion Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21964 In article <2163-39499652-26@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) wrote: > tar_elenion wrote: > > >"Then Celegorm turned his horse, and > >spurred it upon Beren, purposing to ride > >him down...". > > Ah, but you cut out the most relevant passage to this discussion here: > > "...but Curufin swerving stooped and lifted Luthien to his _saddle_..." > > So it would appear that the Noldor did indeed use saddles, or at least > Feanor's Wanker Sons (tm), at any rate. > > --Dave > > I considered posting that part, however I already put my forth my veiws on the use of saddles by the Eldar. The relevent portion, to me, was answering the question about the actual use of horses in combat by the Noldor. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.