From: "Spikey" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: how big is middle-earth Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:55:43 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.126.153.42 X-Complaints-To: abuse@freeuk.net X-Trace: nnrp3.clara.net 959795832 212.126.153.42 (Wed, 31 May 2000 18:57:12 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:57:12 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nnrp3.clara.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20476 A nice simple question for my first post. How big do you think Middle-Earth is/was/could be? I know it can be worked out in miles but i mean in relation to our continents like is it bigger or smaller than Europe or USA. An answer for before and after Beleriand was sunk would be interesting i think. Spikey. "Sometimes things are just as they seem" ###### From: "HuanCry" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth Date: 31 May 2000 19:03:03 GMT Organization: Pre-installed Company Lines: 32 Message-ID: <01bfcb32$f0b28d60$6e2b8cd4@default> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.140.43.110 X-Trace: 959799783 LGTBT6QCL2B6ED48CC uk21.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarq.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1162 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20465 Spikey wrote in article ... > A nice simple question for my first post. > How big do you think Middle-Earth is/was/could be? > I know it can be worked out in miles but i mean in relation to our > continents > like is it bigger or smaller than Europe or USA. > An answer for before and after Beleriand was sunk would be interesting i > think. > > Spikey. > "Sometimes things are just as they seem" > At the time of the LotR i.e. in the 3rd Age Middle-earth represented a mythical Northwestern Europe as the following Tolkien quotes explain:- Paragraph from Patrick Curry's Book 'Defending Middle-earth' p43: ' Rhun is the Elvish word for east ; Asia , China , Japan and all the things which people in the West regard as far away . And south of Harad is Africa , the hot countries. ' Mr Resnick then asked ' That makes Middle-earth Europe , doesn't it ? ' To which Tolkien replied ' Yes , of course - Northwestern Europe......where my imagination comes from '. Tolkien then agreed with the interviewer that Mordor ' would be roughly in the Balkans. ' I do not know about the previous Ages though HuanCry ###### From: dsalo@usa.net (David Salo) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 16 Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 23:39:26 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.170.95.107 X-Complaints-To: abuse@tds.net (TDS.NET help Desk 1-888-815-5992) X-Trace: ratbert.tds.net 959816366 208.170.95.107 (Wed, 31 May 2000 18:39:26 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:39:26 CDT Organization: TDS.NET Internet Services www.tds.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hub.org!hub.org!ratbert.tds.net!dsalo Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20537 In article , "Spikey" wrote: > A nice simple question for my first post. > How big do you think Middle-Earth is/was/could be? > I know it can be worked out in miles but i mean in relation to our > continents > like is it bigger or smaller than Europe or USA. > An answer for before and after Beleriand was sunk would be interesting i > think. Smaller than Europe in its biggest sense; say Europe from around Stockholm in the north to around Tunis in the south (so including a bit of N. Africa), and from Ireland in the west to St. Petersburg in the east. Beleriand adds a chunk about the size of Great Britain, I guess, to the west of Ireland. ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (Wide China Blue Yonder) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:12:08 -0700 Organization: Collective against Consensual Sanity Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!c155.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20522 / A nice simple question for my first post. / How big do you think Middle-Earth is/was/could be? / I know it can be worked out in miles but i mean in relation to our / continents After Numenor was cast down, Middle-Earth was reshaped into a sphere about 8000 miles in diameter. (Middle-Earth is simply our planet Earth.) -- CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 Now a text site map! http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/cacs/ pretty? http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/5079/ :)-free zone. Cthulu in '00: .../cacs/politics.html ###### Message-ID: <39361740.B018F7FA@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth References: <01bfcb32$f0b28d60$6e2b8cd4@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 11 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 08:56:48 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.157 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 959846231 194.125.145.157 (Thu, 01 Jun 2000 08:57:11 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 08:57:11 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20541 HuanCry wrote: > Tolkien then agreed with the interviewer that > Mordor ' would be roughly in the Balkans. Plus ca change... M. ###### Message-ID: <3936176D.1F59C9DE@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 10 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 08:57:33 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.157 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 959846276 194.125.145.157 (Thu, 01 Jun 2000 08:57:56 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 08:57:56 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!iol.ie!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20545 Spikey wrote: > > A nice simple question for my first post. > How big do you think Middle-Earth is/was/could be? Very big. M. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 13:01:32 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 27 Message-ID: <8h5cb3$ebi$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p021.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 959853731 14706 212.205.253.21 (1 Jun 2000 10:02:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 2000 10:02:11 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20470 David Salo wrote in message news:dsalo-ya02408000R3105001840220001@news.terracom.net... > In article , "Spikey" > wrote: > > > A nice simple question for my first post. > > How big do you think Middle-Earth is/was/could be? > > I know it can be worked out in miles but i mean in relation to our > > continents > > like is it bigger or smaller than Europe or USA. > > An answer for before and after Beleriand was sunk would be interesting i > > think. > > Smaller than Europe in its biggest sense; say Europe from around > Stockholm in the north to around Tunis in the south (so including a bit of > N. Africa), and from Ireland in the west to St. Petersburg in the east. > Beleriand adds a chunk about the size of Great Britain, I guess, to the > west of Ireland. A big Ugh! Middle-Earth is all the planet Earth that we know of. What you are referring to is the North-west of the Middle-earth... Aris Katsaris ###### From: "HuanCry" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth Date: 1 Jun 2000 10:32:29 GMT Organization: Pre-installed Company Lines: 31 Message-ID: <01bfcbb4$c89f5420$da2d8cd4@default> References: <8h5cb3$ebi$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.140.45.218 X-Trace: 959855549 LGTBT6QCL2DDAD48CC uk26.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarq.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1162 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20468 Aris Katsaris wrote in article <8h5cb3$ebi$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>... > A big Ugh! Middle-Earth is all the planet Earth that we know of. What you > are referring > to is the North-west of the Middle-earth... > > Aris Katsaris > WRONG ! WRONG ! WRONG ! Did you not read my previous post ! From the horse's mouth ...I repeat :- At the time of the LotR i.e. in the 3rd Age Middle-earth represented a mythical Northwestern Europe as the following Tolkien quotes explain:- Paragraph from Patrick Curry's Book 'Defending Middle-earth' p43: ' Rhun is the Elvish word for east ; Asia , China , Japan and all the things which people in the West regard as far away . And south of Harad is Africa , the hot countries. ' Mr Resnick then asked ' That makes Middle-earth Europe , doesn't it ? ' To which Tolkien replied ' Yes , of course - Northwestern Europe......where my imagination comes from '. Tolkien then agreed with the interviewer that Mordor ' would be roughly in the Balkans. ' HuanCry ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:25:42 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 46 Message-ID: <8h5rqe$kqd$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8h5cb3$ebi$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <01bfcbb4$c89f5420$da2d8cd4@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p150.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 959869582 21325 212.205.253.150 (1 Jun 2000 14:26:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 2000 14:26:22 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20478 HuanCry wrote in message news:01bfcbb4$c89f5420$da2d8cd4@default... > Aris Katsaris wrote in article > <8h5cb3$ebi$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>... > > > A big Ugh! Middle-Earth is all the planet Earth that we know of. What you > > are referring > > to is the North-west of the Middle-earth... > > > > Aris Katsaris > > > WRONG ! WRONG ! WRONG ! > > Did you not read my previous post ! > > From the horse's mouth ...I repeat :- > > At the time of the LotR i.e. in the 3rd Age Middle-earth represented a > mythical Northwestern Europe as the following Tolkien quotes explain:- > Paragraph from Patrick Curry's Book 'Defending Middle-earth' p43: > > ' Rhun is the Elvish word for east ; Asia , China , Japan and all the > things which people in the West regard as far away . And south of Harad is > Africa , the hot countries. ' > Mr Resnick then asked ' That makes Middle-earth Europe , doesn't it ? ' To > which Tolkien replied ' Yes , of course - Northwestern Europe......where my > imagination comes from '. Tolkien then agreed with the interviewer that > Mordor ' would be roughly in the Balkans. ' Well, I have to choose between Tolkien's entire lifework, and his quick answer in a review which a) may have been momentarily confused by either side or b) may have been referring to the "effective" Middle-Earth, as concerning the place where Tolkien placed his stories, rather than the "literal" and more inclusive Middle-Earth aka the whole World where Men live. I'll choose his work rather than his interview :-) Aris Katsaris ###### From: Robert Brady Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Reply-To: rwb197@ecs.soton.ac.uk X-URL: http://www.aber.mud.org/ X-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991124 ("Blueprint") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.11 (i686)) NNTP-Posting-Host: capricorn.ecs.soton.ac.uk Message-ID: <393687d9@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Date: 1 Jun 2000 16:57:13 GMT X-Trace: 1 Jun 2000 16:57:13 GMT, capricorn.ecs.soton.ac.uk Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!diablo.theplanet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news-spool.soton.ac.uk!news.ecs.soton.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20459 Wide China Blue Yonder wrote: >After Numenor was cast down, Middle-Earth was reshaped into a sphere about >8000 miles in diameter. (Middle-Earth is simply our planet Earth.) Technically this is incorrect. Middle-Earth is the _continent_ that later became Eurasia/Africa, the planet is called _Arda_. -- Robert "Any person who knowingly causes a nuclear weapon test explosion or any other nuclear explosion is guilty of an offence and liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for life." -- Nuclear Explosions Act 1998. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:22:38 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8h69mq$qjk$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <393687d9@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-q214.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 959883802 27252 212.205.254.214 (1 Jun 2000 18:23:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 2000 18:23:22 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20607 Robert Brady wrote in message news:393687d9@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk... > Wide China Blue Yonder wrote: > >After Numenor was cast down, Middle-Earth was reshaped into a sphere about > >8000 miles in diameter. (Middle-Earth is simply our planet Earth.) > > Technically this is incorrect. Middle-Earth is the _continent_ that later > became Eurasia/Africa, the planet is called _Arda_. Arda includes Valinor and Eressea - one can't say that the planet is Arda, unless one refers to Valinor and Eressea as also belonging to the planet. The problem lies in the origin of Australia and the Americas - it may be that they were among the new lands that were created in the downfall of Numenor... Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Durin VII" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <393687d9@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <8h69mq$qjk$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:20:32 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.139.30.25 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 959888665 209.139.30.25 (Thu, 01 Jun 2000 19:44:25 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 19:44:25 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20677 The United States is Valinor. You know, a powerful nation able to waste the world, that say it won't interfer but does anyway. P.S. I am an american Aris Katsaris wrote in message news:8h69mq$qjk$1@newssrv.otenet.gr... > > Robert Brady wrote in message > news:393687d9@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk... > > Wide China Blue Yonder wrote: > > >After Numenor was cast down, Middle-Earth was reshaped into a sphere > about > > >8000 miles in diameter. (Middle-Earth is simply our planet Earth.) > > > > Technically this is incorrect. Middle-Earth is the _continent_ that later > > became Eurasia/Africa, the planet is called _Arda_. > > Arda includes Valinor and Eressea - one can't say that the planet is Arda, > unless one refers to Valinor and Eressea as also belonging to the planet. > > The problem lies in the origin of Australia and the Americas - it may be > that > they were among the new lands that were created in the downfall of > Numenor... > > Aris Katsaris > > ###### From: Robert Brady Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <393687d9@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <8h69mq$qjk$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> Reply-To: rwb197@ecs.soton.ac.uk X-URL: http://www.aber.mud.org/ X-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991124 ("Blueprint") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.11 (i686)) NNTP-Posting-Host: capricorn.ecs.soton.ac.uk Message-ID: <3936b040@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Date: 1 Jun 2000 19:49:36 GMT X-Trace: 1 Jun 2000 19:49:36 GMT, capricorn.ecs.soton.ac.uk Lines: 16 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news-spool.soton.ac.uk!news.ecs.soton.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20566 Aris Katsaris wrote: >Arda includes Valinor and Eressea - one can't say that the planet is Arda, >unless one refers to Valinor and Eressea as also belonging to the planet. Do you have a cite for Arda referring to V/E after the Downfall? >The problem lies in the origin of Australia and the Americas - it may be >that >they were among the new lands that were created in the downfall of >Numenor... Maybe they existed all along. We know V. existed, perhaps there was a corresponding continent on the other side of M.E. -- Robert ###### From: "Jonathan White" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:36:41 +0100 Message-ID: <959925066.9930.1.nnrp-10.c2de803c@news.demon.co.uk> References: <393687d9@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <8h69mq$qjk$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: rebeccaj.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: rebeccaj.demon.co.uk:194.222.128.60 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 959925066 nnrp-10:9930 NO-IDENT rebeccaj.demon.co.uk:194.222.128.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Lines: 21 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!rebeccaj.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20683 "Durin VII" wrote in message news:t2zZ4.2898$HD6.54786@iad-read.news.verio.net... > The United States is Valinor. You know, a powerful nation able to waste the > world, that say it won't interfer but does anyway. > I'm sure this was meant as a bit of fun, but, to answer the point seriously, Valinor can't be intended to be America, because (perhaps, as some of my fellow Europeans would say, unfortunately) we can humans can travel there today. Nope, America is either a new land, a land which always existed, way off to the East of Rhun. I would suggest though that the creation of America was what precisely what Tolkien was referring to when he said about "new lands being created" in the downfall of Numenor. Jon ###### Message-ID: <3936FC7B.3737C131@rmit.edu.au> Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 10:14:51 +1000 From: Kylie Johnson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth References: <393687d9@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <8h69mq$qjk$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <3936b040@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: miragia.bf.rmit.edu.au X-Trace: 2 Jun 2000 10:06:43 +1000, miragia.bf.rmit.edu.au Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!newshub1.rdc1.nsw.optushome.com.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!vrn.edu.au!mercury.its.rmit.edu.au!miragia.bf.rmit.edu.au Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20553 Robert Brady wrote: > Maybe they existed all along. We know V. existed, perhaps there was a > corresponding continent on the other side of M.E. The Counterweight Continent... ;)= ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 23:20:00 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 12 Message-ID: <1128-393727E0-39@storefull-253.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <01bfcbb4$c89f5420$da2d8cd4@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAuAhUAzMvqoMxqMjQ5EKNbvLBTr1x84JgCFQDBFpJGL70Ia5XXaKde1shFmnXtWg== Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20551 HuanCry wrote: >Tolkien then agreed with the interviewer >that Mordor ' would be roughly in the >Balkans. ' Heh. Sounds about right to me. --Dave ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 12 Message-ID: <%KIZ4.182$x3.2910@uchinews> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 959928379 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 02 Jun 2000 01:46:19 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 01:46:19 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 06:46:19 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20687 Quoth dsalo@usa.net (David Salo): > Beleriand adds a chunk about the size of Great Britain, I guess, to > the west of Ireland. That small? I haven't ever really done the comparison, I guess, but I always envisioned Beleriand as being substantially larger than that... but perhaps that's my upbringing in the American "great plains" talking. Didn't the land that was drowned at the end of the First Age extend quite a ways farther south that we usually see on our maps? Hmm... perhaps I should simply trust your memory on this one. :) Steuard Jensen ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth Date: 02 Jun 2000 22:49:14 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 19 Message-ID: <6uya4n95bp.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <393687d9@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <8h69mq$qjk$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 959978954 387 10.0.3.2 (2 Jun 2000 20:49:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jun 2000 20:49:14 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20688 "Durin VII" writes: > The United States is Valinor. You know, a powerful nation able to waste the > world, that say it won't interfer but does anyway. Aarrggghhhhh!!!!! I read that, and then immediately pictured an Manwe/Clinton combo... Scary. DON'T DO THAT JOKE EVER _EVER_ AGAIN! -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth Date: 02 Jun 2000 23:27:15 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 53 Message-ID: <6uvgzr93kc.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <393687d9@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <8h69mq$qjk$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <3936b040@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <3936FC7B.3737C131@rmit.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 959981236 482 10.0.3.2 (2 Jun 2000 21:27:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 Jun 2000 21:27:16 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20689 Kylie Johnson writes: > > > Robert Brady wrote: > > > Maybe they existed all along. We know V. existed, perhaps there was a > > corresponding continent on the other side of M.E. > > The Counterweight Continent... Perhaps better call it "Land of the Sun", as Tolkien did? Try reading the Ambarkanta (in HoME IV). Or the hint in Silmarillion, that says that in the first battle against Melkor the _symmetry_ [1] of the world was changed. (And Ambarkanta: For their further protection the Valar thrust away Middle-Earth at the centre and crowded it easward, ...) [1] west Valinor, middle Middle Earth [2], east Land of the Sun [2] why do you think is it called so? :-) _Partial_ rendering of the picture from HoME IV, page 243, as ASCII art (remarks in [] added by me, not in original). [West East] [ Valinor Middle-Earth Land o t Sun ] [ west sea east sea ] Vista [= inner Air, human breathable] / / \ \ |[1]| _____ |[1]| [1] = Ilmen | |________.--' `--.________| | [= middle air] |_-' `--__--' `--__--' `-_| [only Ainur/Elves] `. .' [breathable] `. Ambar [= earth] .' `-.. ..-' `--.._____________..--' Vaiya [= outer sea, where only Ulmo goes] -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### From: "Andrew Wells" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 20:55:13 +0100 Organization: Wellinghall Lines: 29 Message-ID: <8h93l5$2j968$6@fu-berlin.de> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.159.24.66 X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 959975910 2729160 212.159.24.66 (16 [23037]) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.netscum.dk.MISMATCH!CensurBot!news.tele.dk!News.Tele.DK!news.tele.dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!212.159.24.66!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20694 Spikey wrote in message ... >A nice simple question for my first post. >How big do you think Middle-Earth is/was/could be? >I know it can be worked out in miles but i mean in relation to our >continents >like is it bigger or smaller than Europe or USA. >An answer for before and after Beleriand was sunk would be interesting i >think. Depending on your definition of "Middle-earth", either Europe or our world. The map in the back of (one of my copies of) LotR covers a maximum area of 1,750 miles EW and 2,150 miles NS. Europe, on the other hand, covers at its maximum about 2,300 miles EW and 2,600 miles NS. So, the map of M-e is appreciably smaller than all of Europe (but about the same size as Europe excluding the former USSR, Iberia and the Mediterranean islands). OTOH, M-e has (I think) a higher proportion of land area than Europe. Beleriand (as shown in QS) is about 550 miles EW by 360 miles NS. (These measurements are slightly more approximate than the M-e ones given above). So GB + Ireland is about right. Andrew -- Andrew Wells Replace nospam with my first name to reach me ###### From: raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth References: <393687d9@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <8h69mq$qjk$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <3936b040@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <3936FC7B.3737C131@rmit.edu.au> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 16 Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 00:20:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.62.185.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@asiaonline.net X-Trace: news.interact.net.au 959991603 203.62.185.20 (Sat, 03 Jun 2000 10:20:03 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 10:20:03 EST Organization: an Asia Online client - http://www.asiaonline.net/ X-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 10:20:03 EST (news.interact.net.au) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!news1.optus.net.au!optus!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.can.connect.com.au!news.interact.net.au!raka Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20762 On Fri, 02 Jun 2000 10:14:51 +1000, Kylie Johnson wrote: > > >Robert Brady wrote: > >> Maybe they existed all along. We know V. existed, perhaps there was a >> corresponding continent on the other side of M.E. > >The Counterweight Continent... > >;)= Does that mean all through the war of the ring, Twoflower was there, asking Orcs to take his picture box and take of photo of him sitting on a Barlog's wings? ###### From: raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth References: <01bfcb32$f0b28d60$6e2b8cd4@default> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 34 Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 00:27:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.62.185.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@asiaonline.net X-Trace: news.interact.net.au 959992043 203.62.185.20 (Sat, 03 Jun 2000 10:27:23 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 10:27:23 EST Organization: an Asia Online client - http://www.asiaonline.net/ X-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 10:27:23 EST (news.interact.net.au) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!news.interact.net.au!raka Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20758 On 31 May 2000 19:03:03 GMT, HuanCry wrote: > > >At the time of the LotR i.e. in the 3rd Age Middle-earth represented a >mythical Northwestern Europe as the following Tolkien quotes explain:- > >Paragraph from Patrick Curry's Book 'Defending Middle-earth' p43: > >' Rhun is the Elvish word for east ; Asia , China , Japan and all the >things which people in the West regard as far away . And south of Harad is >Africa , the hot countries. ' >Mr Resnick then asked ' That makes Middle-earth Europe , doesn't it ? ' To >which Tolkien replied ' Yes , of course - Northwestern Europe......where my >imagination comes from '. Tolkien then agreed with the interviewer that >Mordor ' would be roughly in the Balkans. ' > > >I do not know about the previous Ages though > >HuanCry > Kind of wierd that. I had always assumed that Middle Earth was all that stuff (i.e Rhun, Harad, everything). After all, the map at the back of LoTR is just the "North and West of Middle Earth", yet by your description, that map is all of middle earth. If you look at the Ambarkanta map, (V) and have a look at the thing makred "Hither Lands", then you will see Africa as clear as day, and less clearly even Arabia, India and Indo-China. So I'd say Middlle Earth is Eurasia + Africa, and the "Lands of the Sun" and the "Dark Lands" either don't exist any more or are a very warped America and Gondwana. I would be tempted to say that during that interview, JRRT was either confused or had temporarily changed his mind about what ME was defined as. ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 00:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 19 Message-ID: <13118-393883DD-76@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <959925066.9930.1.nnrp-10.c2de803c@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAuAhUAg2a6GaPsS/1OwqTzDzPkbWwMTo8CFQDKu8vmsO1RKozkYhe2n2UhX2I2Ag== Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20700 Jonathan White wrote: >I would suggest though that the creation >of America was what precisely what >Tolkien was referring to when he said >about "new lands being created" in the >downfall of Numenor. Agreed. Curiously enough, if we take into account that the Downfall was supposed to be somewhere between 12-9,000 years ago, that would put the "new lands" in place just in time for the Indians to arrive in the New World (at least by traditional accounts anyway; modern archaeologists are fining new evidence which contradicts traditional ideas of how humans entered the Western Hemisphere). --Dave ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 00:11:37 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 18 Message-ID: <13119-39388579-27@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <%KIZ4.182$x3.2910@uchinews> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQXcH5tvtYID5zg0AnSTK+OKm4F5AIUAYNnxxjerAKh6LZ/X0HWmvo8QLs= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20696 Steuard Jensen wrote: >Didn't the land that was drowned at the >end of the First Age extend quite a ways >farther south that we usually see on our >maps? I don't know how canonical some people will think this is, but The Atlas of Middle-earth has a map which outlines the Drowned Lands on a map of ME at the beginning of the SA. I think the index gives the total area of these lands as about 1 million square miles (though I might be wrong). I know not everyone here likes the Atlas as a reference, but since the author seems to have tried to stay faithful to what Tolkien wrote, I'm inclined to accept the book as a relatively accurate reference. --Dave ###### From: "Andrew Wells" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 09:57:50 +0100 Organization: Wellinghall Lines: 19 Message-ID: <8hahf5$2lmie$3@fu-berlin.de> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.159.23.232 X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 960022822 2808398 212.159.23.232 (16 [23037]) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!unlisys!news.snafu.de!blackbush.xlink.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!212.159.23.232!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20704 Spikey wrote in message ... >Well i didn't think i would get that much of a response but i guess >Middle-Earth(or Arda i should of said) is smaller than i thought. >I had presumed Tol Eressea was about the size of Britain or maybe Ireland. > >Please don't laugh. > >Anyways did you know the Undying Lands are near enough the same size as >Middle-Earth,well according to this map from A Tolkien Bestiary. This book, and all others by David Day, are almost completely unreliable. Andrew -- Andrew Wells Replace nospam with my first name to reach me ###### From: "Andrew Wells" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 09:59:05 +0100 Organization: Wellinghall Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8hahf6$2lmie$4@fu-berlin.de> References: <%KIZ4.182$x3.2910@uchinews> <13119-39388579-27@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.159.23.232 X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 960022823 2808398 212.159.23.232 (16 [23037]) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!212.159.23.232!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20705 David Sulger wrote in message <13119-39388579-27@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net>... >I don't know how canonical some people will think this is, but The Atlas >of Middle-earth has a map which outlines the Drowned Lands on a map of >ME at the beginning of the SA. I think the index gives the total area >of these lands as about 1 million square miles (though I might be >wrong). I know not everyone here likes the Atlas as a reference, but >since the author seems to have tried to stay faithful to what Tolkien >wrote, I'm inclined to accept the book as a relatively accurate >reference. Not canonical, but as you say, the author tries to stay fairly faithful to what Tolkien wrote. Andrew -- Andrew Wells Replace nospam with my first name to reach me ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (Wide China Blue Yonder) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 07:14:58 -0700 Organization: Collective against Consensual Sanity Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <393687d9@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <8h69mq$qjk$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <6uya4n95bp.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!c181.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20750 / > The United States is Valinor. You know, a powerful nation able to waste the / > world, that say it won't interfer but does anyway. / / Aarrggghhhhh!!!!! / / I read that, and then immediately pictured an Manwe/Clinton combo... / / Scary. / / DON'T DO THAT JOKE EVER _EVER_ AGAIN! You're just jealous because you an't afford a missle defene. In the latest plans, it will consist of one hundred billion one dollar bills woven into a net that floats in orbit over the USA. -- CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 Now a text site map! http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/cacs/ pretty? http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/5079/ :)-free zone. Cthulu in '00: .../cacs/politics.html ###### From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <393687d9@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <8h69mq$qjk$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <3936b040@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <3936FC7B.3737C131@rmit.edu.au> Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth Lines: 22 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: <6jb_4.263$dQ2.4049@news.get2net.dk> Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 02:42:02 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.200.63 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 960053570 195.82.200.63 (Sat, 03 Jun 2000 19:32:50 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 19:32:50 MET DST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20807 Adrian Ratnapala skrev i en news:slrn8jgjp9.lg.raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au... > >> Maybe they existed all along. We know V. existed, perhaps there > >> was a corresponding continent on the other side of M.E. > >The Counterweight Continent... > Does that mean all through the war of the ring, Twoflower was there, > asking Orcs to take his picture box and take of photo of him sitting > on a Barlog's wings? Only Twoflower could have gotten away with such a thing. Of course, the Luggage would first have eaten some Orcs, and then the others would have played ball. I wonder what Sauron would have said, Twoflower addressing him s-l-o-w-l-y, cheerfully telling him that if everybody just sat together and talked things over like reasonable people, it would all work out in the end. "Hey, Angmar, is it? Could you take a picture of me arm in arm with ol' Sauron with Mount Doom in the background, please? Sauron, what's your name in the Black Speech? Picturesque tower you have here. Why can't I say 'eight'?" Hrafn. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 20 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 960053752 128.135.12.7 (Sat, 03 Jun 2000 12:35:52 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 12:35:52 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 17:35:52 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20771 Quoth "Spikey" : > Well i didn't think i would get that much of a response but i guess > Middle-Earth(or Arda i should of said) is smaller than i thought. > I had presumed Tol Eressea was about the size of Britain or maybe Ireland. > Please don't laugh. I certainly won't! In fact, I can't think of _any_ "canonical" reference to the size of Tol Eressea, off the top of my head. The only references I can think of are the very early notions that England was actually Tol Eressea (as described in the Lost Tales, I think). > Anyways did you know the Undying Lands are near enough the same size > as Middle-Earth,well according to this map from A Tolkien Bestiary. Hmm. David Day's books are not known for being particularly reliable: he seems to have a tendency to invent details without mentioning that they weren't Tolkien's own creations. I'm not sure where a reliable source for this would be. Steuard Jensen ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <01bfcb32$f0b28d60$6e2b8cd4@default> Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4029.2901 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 16:51:20 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.65.1.141 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 960223880 12.65.1.141 (Mon, 05 Jun 2000 16:51:20 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 16:51:20 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters3!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20914 "Adrian Ratnapala" wrote in message news:slrn8jgk70.lg.raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au... > On 31 May 2000 19:03:03 GMT, HuanCry wrote: >> Mr Resnick then asked ' That makes Middle-earth Europe , doesn't >> it ? > I would be tempted to say that during that interview, JRRT was > either confused or had temporarily changed his mind about what ME > was defined as. I think he just didn't bother to correct the interviewer. It was Resnick who said that Middle-earth was Europe... at which point Tolkien probably did the mental math to determine that the man was referring to the part of Middle-Earth he knew about (the northwest) and just agreed. In the stories Middle-Earth is the entire planet not including Aman. In this instance the interviewer was using it to refer specifically to the portion of Middle-Earth he knew about. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <%KIZ4.182$x3.2910@uchinews> <13119-39388579-27@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4029.2901 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 05:11:49 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.115.221 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 960268309 12.78.115.221 (Tue, 06 Jun 2000 05:11:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 05:11:49 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters3!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21007 "David Sulger" wrote in message news:13119-39388579-27@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net... > I know not everyone here likes the Atlas as a reference, but > since the author seems to have tried to stay faithful to what > Tolkien wrote, I'm inclined to accept the book as a relatively > accurate reference. In this case (and most others) I think it is fairly accurate. The rough size and position of Beleriand can be lined up with the later map by noting the location of the parts that were NOT destroyed. Specifically, I believe that the Blue Mountains, Himring and Tol Morwen were still around. Line those three pieces up, fill in the rest of the Beleriand map, and viola... you've got Beleriand's size and location relative to the rest of Middle Earth... which is pretty much what Fonstadt did. ###### From: "Andrew Wells" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:54:31 +0100 Organization: Wellinghall Lines: 32 Message-ID: <8hjl1e$39j19$6@fu-berlin.de> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.159.22.75 X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 960321392 3460137 212.159.22.75 (16 [23037]) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!212.159.22.75!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21092 Steuard Jensen wrote in message ... >Quoth "Spikey" : >> Well i didn't think i would get that much of a response but i guess >> Middle-Earth(or Arda i should of said) is smaller than i thought. >> I had presumed Tol Eressea was about the size of Britain or maybe Ireland. > >> Please don't laugh. > >I certainly won't! In fact, I can't think of _any_ "canonical" >reference to the size of Tol Eressea, off the top of my head. The >only references I can think of are the very early notions that England >was actually Tol Eressea (as described in the Lost Tales, I think). There is, as Steuard says, remarkably little on this point, but: BoLT1, Chap 1, "Now one day after much journeying ... he was now near the centre of this great island". BoLT1, the "world ship" map, shows Tol Eressea as being of no great size compared to Valinor and Middle-earth / Beleriand. From the map of Beleriand in "The Silmarillion", we can see that the Isle of Balar is (at its extremes) about 70 miles by 50 miles. This was the Eastern horn of what became Tol Eressea, so we might hazard that Tol Eressea is about 500 miles by 150 miles. Andrew -- Andrew Wells Replace nospam with my first name to reach me ###### From: raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth References: <393687d9@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <8h69mq$qjk$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <3936b040@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <3936FC7B.3737C131@rmit.edu.au> <6jb_4.263$dQ2.4049@news.get2net.dk> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 21 Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:20:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.62.185.55 X-Complaints-To: abuse@asiaonline.net X-Trace: news.interact.net.au 960416457 203.62.185.55 (Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:20:57 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:20:57 EST Organization: an Asia Online client - http://www.asiaonline.net/ X-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:20:57 EST (news.interact.net.au) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!news.interact.net.au!raka Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21160 On Sat, 3 Jun 2000 02:42:02 +0200, Raven wrote: >Adrian Ratnapala skrev i en >news:slrn8jgjp9.lg.raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au... > I wonder what Sauron would have said, Twoflower addressing him >s-l-o-w-l-y, cheerfully telling him that if everybody just sat >together and talked things over like reasonable people, it would all >work out in the end. "Hey, Angmar, is it? Could you take a picture He would have just sat there staring in bewilderment. After Twoflower had accidently demolished Barad Dur, he would probably be wondering why he start pulling fingernalils. >of me arm in arm with ol' Sauron with Mount Doom in the background, >please? Sauron, what's your name in the Black Speech? Picturesque >tower you have here. Why can't I say 'eight'?" Well really all Sauron had to do was find some evil minion who had a nack for the whole tourist trade, and start a tourism department. Turn Mordor into a giant theme park (you, set up a roller coaster in Cirith Ungol and that, bungee jumping into the Crack of Doom, stuff like that). Eventually he would have enough money to _buy_ the world. Much easier than mucking about with magic rings and all. ###### From: raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth References: <01bfcb32$f0b28d60$6e2b8cd4@default> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 14 Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:22:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.62.185.55 X-Complaints-To: abuse@asiaonline.net X-Trace: news.interact.net.au 960416571 203.62.185.55 (Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:22:51 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:22:51 EST Organization: an Asia Online client - http://www.asiaonline.net/ X-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:22:51 EST (news.interact.net.au) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.can.connect.com.au!news.interact.net.au!raka Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21316 On Mon, 05 Jun 2000 16:51:20 GMT, Conrad Dunkerson < conrad.dunkerson@worldnet.att.net> wrote: >I think he just didn't bother to correct the interviewer. It was >Resnick who said that Middle-earth was Europe... at which point >Tolkien probably did the mental math to determine that the man was >referring to the part of Middle-Earth he knew about (the northwest) Could be that too. >and just agreed. In the stories Middle-Earth is the entire planet >not including Aman. In this instance the interviewer was using it (And other bits that are mentioned but not detailed. The Numenoreans for example sailed east of Middle earth). ###### From: raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth References: Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 30 Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:28:04 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.62.185.55 X-Complaints-To: abuse@asiaonline.net X-Trace: news.interact.net.au 960416884 203.62.185.55 (Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:28:04 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:28:04 EST Organization: an Asia Online client - http://www.asiaonline.net/ X-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:28:04 EST (news.interact.net.au) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!news.interact.net.au!raka Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21317 On Sat, 03 Jun 2000 17:35:52 GMT, Steuard Jensen wrote: >Quoth "Spikey" : >> Well i didn't think i would get that much of a response but i guess >> Middle-Earth(or Arda i should of said) is smaller than i thought. >> I had presumed Tol Eressea was about the size of Britain or maybe Ireland. > >> Please don't laugh. > >I certainly won't! In fact, I can't think of _any_ "canonical" >reference to the size of Tol Eressea, off the top of my head. The >only references I can think of are the very early notions that England >was actually Tol Eressea (as described in the Lost Tales, I think). Yes, I think it is LT. Specifically, something about Tol Eressea having later been moved back east, at which point a bit of it (Ireland) broke off. So I can assume the remaining island was supposed to bo all of Britain, not just England (I mean, it wouldn't make sense otherwise). >> Anyways did you know the Undying Lands are near enough the same size >> as Middle-Earth,well according to this map from A Tolkien Bestiary. > >Hmm. David Day's books are not known for being particularly reliable: >he seems to have a tendency to invent details without mentioning that >they weren't Tolkien's own creations. I'm not sure where a reliable >source for this would be. > Steuard Jensen I think the best way of judging this one is to look at the Ambarkanta map. Middle-Earth is about twice as big as Valinor (there seem to be vast areas of wilderness in Valinor). ME is a bit smaller now, but not much. ###### From: raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: how big is middle-earth References: <959925066.9930.1.nnrp-10.c2de803c@news.demon.co.uk> <13118-393883DD-76@storefull-254.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 10 Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 22:29:41 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.62.185.55 X-Complaints-To: abuse@asiaonline.net X-Trace: news.interact.net.au 960416981 203.62.185.55 (Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:29:41 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:29:41 EST Organization: an Asia Online client - http://www.asiaonline.net/ X-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 08:29:41 EST (news.interact.net.au) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.can.connect.com.au!news.interact.net.au!raka Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21309 On Sat, 3 Jun 2000 00:04:45 -0400 (EDT), David Sulger wrote: >Curiously enough, if we take into account that the Downfall was supposed >to be somewhere between 12-9,000 years ago, that would put the "new >lands" in place just in time for the Indians to arrive in the New World >(at least by traditional accounts anyway; modern archaeologists are >fining new evidence which contradicts traditional ideas of how humans >entered the Western Hemisphere). As well as evidence contridicting the contradicting evidence. So I think we can say the jury is still out.