From: "Kristina Duncan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: simarillion Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 09:50:36 -0700 Organization: University of California, Irvine Lines: 6 Message-ID: <8h13fv$1uo$1@news.service.uci.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: mc222062.reshsg.uci.edu X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!logbridge.uoregon.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news.service.uci.edu!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20320 I'm reading the Silmarillion for the first time and in the part called Quenta Silmarillion, there is constant reference to the Children of Iluvatar and to the Firstborn. Are they the same and who exactly are they? Will all be revealed later or something? ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: simarillion Date: 30 May 2000 23:26:37 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 26 Message-ID: <6uya4rg25u.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <8h13fv$1uo$1@news.service.uci.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 959721998 504 10.0.3.2 (30 May 2000 21:26:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 May 2000 21:26:38 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20359 "Kristina Duncan" writes: > I'm reading the Silmarillion for the first time and in the part called > Quenta Silmarillion, there is constant reference to the Children of Iluvatar > and to the Firstborn. Are they the same and who exactly are they? The Firstborn are one set of the Children, the others being the Followers (also somethimes referred to as the Aftercomers). > Will all > be revealed later or something? It was "revealed" long before, in the Ainulindale. From Page 19 of my copy: Now the Children of Illuvatar are Elves and Men, the Firstborn and the Followers. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: simarillion Lines: 38 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 May 2000 20:52:01 GMT References: <8h13fv$1uo$1@news.service.uci.edu> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000530165201.10799.00001717@nso-fb.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20394 In article <8h13fv$1uo$1@news.service.uci.edu>, "Kristina Duncan" writes: >I'm reading the Silmarillion for the first time and in the part called >Quenta Silmarillion, there is constant reference to the Children of Iluvatar >and to the Firstborn. Are they the same and who exactly are they? Will all >be revealed later or something? > Kristina, I believe I've seen your name on posts here before so I feel confident that being familiar with the general responses to such questions you will take this in as friendly and benevolent way as possible. Exactly how far are you into the Quenta? I would think the answer would be pretty obvious if you've read at least through Chapter 3. (And indeed some enlightenment should come even from the Ainulidalė) If you've read that far, indeed if you read through the _whole thing_ first, and still can't figure it out, I'll be happy to give you an answer, but since you are in the midst of your reading, I'll first let you both enjoy the story without notes first and let you exercise your reading comprehension skills. Figuring things out yourself gives a much better feeling when your done. Enjoy the book and I hope to see you posting again when your done to tell us all what you thought. A lighthearted aside: I can understand people who have no intention of reading the book asking questions like this (if they somehow know enough to _conceive_ of this type of question before hand,) but why would someone want to have all the answers to everything beforehand if they do intend to read this (or any) book? Breathe Peace PB "... the essence of myth [is] that it have no taint of allegory to the maker and yet should suggest incipient allegories to the reader..." C. S. Lewis, having read "The Lay of Leithian" ###### From: Robert Brady Subject: Re: simarillion Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8h13fv$1uo$1@news.service.uci.edu> Reply-To: rwb197@ecs.soton.ac.uk X-URL: http://www.aber.mud.org/ X-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991124 ("Blueprint") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.11 (i686)) NNTP-Posting-Host: capricorn.ecs.soton.ac.uk Message-ID: <393425b3@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Date: 30 May 2000 21:33:55 GMT X-Trace: 30 May 2000 21:33:55 GMT, capricorn.ecs.soton.ac.uk Lines: 12 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!psiuk-p4!uknet!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news-spool.soton.ac.uk!news.ecs.soton.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20370 Kristina Duncan wrote: >I'm reading the Silmarillion for the first time and in the part called >Quenta Silmarillion, there is constant reference to the Children of Iluvatar >and to the Firstborn. Are they the same and who exactly are they? Will all >be revealed later or something? The Children of Illuvatar are Elves and Men. The Firstborn are Elves. -- Robert ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (Wide China Blue Yonder) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: simarillion Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 18:38:02 -0700 Organization: Collective against Consensual Sanity Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <8h13fv$1uo$1@news.service.uci.edu> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!c147.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20431 / I'm reading the Silmarillion for the first time and in the part called / Quenta Silmarillion, there is constant reference to the Children of Iluvatar / and to the Firstborn. Are they the same and who exactly are they? Will all / be revealed later or something? All things in Middle-Earth except the Elves and Men has been mapped out in the music with the Ainur and Iluvatar, so the things of the world were as much as of the Ainur as Iluvatar. But the Elves and Men were a theme unique to Iluvatar, so that is why they are the _Children off Iluvatar_, things apart from all the rest of creation. -- CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 Now a text site map! http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/cacs/ pretty? http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/5079/ :)-free zone. Cthulu in '00: .../cacs/politics.html ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: simarillion Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:18:52 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <8h13fv$1uo$1@news.service.uci.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.c1.45 X-Server-Date: 31 May 2000 02:17:20 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net.MISMATCH!news.mindspring.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20437 Said kduncan@zotnet.net (Kristina Duncan) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >I'm reading the Silmarillion for the first time and in the part called >Quenta Silmarillion, there is constant reference to the Children of Iluvatar >and to the Firstborn. Are they the same and who exactly are they? Will all >be revealed later or something? You skipped over the Ainulindale, didn't you? That's okay, I didn't absorb most of it myself on first reading. The Firstborn are the Elves: see the chart in the back of the book for the division of Elves into kindreds. The Aftercomers are Men. Together the Elves and Men are called the Children of Iluvatar, or the Eruhini. I don't know how far you've got in the Quenta, but there's a description of the awakening of the Elves; but the (later) awakening of Men happens "off stage" as it were: it's mentioned, but only as something in the past. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (Wide China Blue Yonder) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: simarillion Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 08:45:03 -0700 Organization: Collective against Consensual Sanity Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <8h13fv$1uo$1@news.service.uci.edu> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!c148.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20430 / Is this a school assignment? Silmarillion is a dense book and it's easy for first time readers to get lost. -- CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 Now a text site map! http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/cacs/ pretty? http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/5079/ :)-free zone. Cthulu in '00: .../cacs/politics.html ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: simarillion From: debi@REMOVEBIGLETTERSblazenet.net (Debi) References: <8h13fv$1uo$1@news.service.uci.edu> Organization: Gouda Cheese Taste Testers Association Of America User-Agent: Xnews/03.04.11 Lines: 11 Message-ID: X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Complaints-To: support@usenetserver.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 12:13:11 EDT Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 16:13:11 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!news-east.usenetserver.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20364 kduncan@zotnet.net (Kristina Duncan) wrote in <8h13fv$1uo$1@news.service.uci.edu>: >I'm reading the Silmarillion for the first time and in the part called >Quenta Silmarillion, there is constant reference to the Children of >Iluvatar and to the Firstborn. Are they the same and who exactly are >they? Will all be revealed later or something? > > Is this a school assignment? ###### From: ms1191@aol.com (MS1191) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Silmarillion Lines: 13 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 10 Jun 2000 03:59:38 GMT References: <8gs828$t4q$1@news.service.uci.edu> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000609235938.06302.00003056@ng-cd1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!unlisys!news.snafu.de!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21363 >I have just started the part called Quenta Silmarilion and it keeps making >reference to the Children of Iluvatar and Firstborn. Who are they and what >is their relationship to the story. I'm really confused. > The Children of Iluvatar, or the Firstborn were the Elves. The Elves were the first race to awaken in Middle Earth in its beginning. The Quenta Silmarillion is the History of the Silmarils. The Silmarils were three holy jewels that Feanor created in Valinor. The Silmarils shone with the Light of the Two Trees that gave light to Valinor, Teleprion and Laurelin. The two trees were destroyed, and the Silmarils were stolen by Morgoth. The Quenta Silmarillion tells about the war that the Elves made against Morgoth in Middle Earth to regain the Silmarils that he stole.