From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Seeing a Ringwearer Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 May 2000 18:53:06 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000530145306.17424.00001538@nso-fg.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20302 Just a few thoughts that have been rattling around my brain. We know that putting on a ring of power renders a mortal wearer invisible. However, what is occurring is that the wearer is being "transported" into the unseen spiritual world. Certain objects and persons exist or have power in that unseen world and thus can be seen quite well: "Immediately, though everything else remained as before, dim and dark, the shapes became terribly clear. He was able to see beneath their black wrappings...[description of nazgul]...Desperate he drew his own sword, and it seemed to him that it flickered red, as if it were a firebrand. Two of the figures halted. The third...in one hand he held a long sword, and in the other a knife; both the knife and the hand that held it glowed with a pale light."For example, the swords of Westernesse" At the Ford of Bruinen, although Frodo did not put on the Ring, he was almost in the wraith world. As Gandalf said, he was beginning to fade. Thus, as at Weathertop, Frodo was able to see the Nazgul beneath their robes and he saw Glorfindel as "a shining figure of white light...as he is upon the other side" while the other figures grew dim." Gandalf tells Frodo that the Calaquendi have great power over those who dwell in the unseen world; hence the Nazguls' fear of him. Part of that power is that Glorfindel could presumably see the Nazgul in their form in the unseen world and that would also mean that Glorfindel could see Frodo when he put on the Ring. This probably explains why Tom Bombadil was able to see Frodo when he put on the Ring. Tom appears to be some sort of Ainur or other powerful spirit who dwells at once in both the seen and unseen world and can see those who inhabit them. When Tom put the Ring on, it did not make him disappear because like Glorfindel, he *already* existed in both realities. So when Frodo puts on the Ring and enters the sprit-world Tom of course can see him. Russ ###### Message-ID: <393417B0.B1D03DF1@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer References: <20000530145306.17424.00001538@nso-fg.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 59 Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 20:34:08 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.147 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 959715276 194.125.145.147 (Tue, 30 May 2000 20:34:36 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 20:34:36 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!iol.ie!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20440 Russ wrote: > Gandalf tells Frodo that the Calaquendi have great power over those > who dwell in the unseen world; Gandalf actually makes the following intriguing statement about Glorfindel & Co.: "And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, Lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have lived in the Blessed Realmlive at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power." Now WHAT on Middle-Earth [or off it] is Gandalf on about here? Did Elves somehow change the nature of their being by living in Valinor for a few years? What does this imply for the Elves who never went abroad? I mean to say, this sentence can be interpreted (i) to mean that Elves who went to the blessed realm developed greater power in both worlds than those who didn't [a quantitive change, perhaps brought by living proximate to the Valar] but that those who didn't also had power in both worlds, or, it can be interpreted (ii) to mean that Elves who went to the blessed realm developed power over the unseen world which who didn't go never developed [a qualitive change, again perhaps brought by living proximate to the Valar]. Are the Avari so spiritually grippled? > When Tom put the Ring on, it did not make him disappear because like > Glorfindel, he *already* existed in both realities. So when Frodo > puts on the Ring and enters the sprit-world Tom of course can see him. I suppose the real test would be whether if Glorfindel put it on it would make him invisible. Gandalf does not differentiate between types of being, Firstborn, Secondborn, Hobbit or Dwarf when he says that Great Rings Make their wearers invisible, so I'm not sure your assertion is correct. I think that for an Elf of however great a lineage his BODY would still become invisible, but perhaps his eyes [Éowyn and the Witch King] or some other manifestation of his spirit might still be visible in this world. I think you are on the right track with Bombadil, but the whole "two worlds thing" has confused you. Maia aren't made invisible by the Ring. Sauron was visible whilst wearing it. At least Isildur described Sauron's "...hand, which was black and yet burned like fire..." in his scroll and he never mentioned Sauron being invisible during the combat with Gil-Galad and Elendil. FWIW M. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 22:16:10 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 94 Message-ID: References: <20000530145306.17424.00001538@nso-fg.aol.com> <393417B0.B1D03DF1@indigo.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.c1.45 X-Server-Date: 31 May 2000 02:14:39 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20438 Said onq@indigo.ie (Michael O'Neill) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Russ wrote: > >> Gandalf tells Frodo that the Calaquendi have great power over those >> who dwell in the unseen world; > >Gandalf actually makes the following intriguing statement about >Glorfindel & Co.: > >"And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the >Elven-wise, Lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do >not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have lived in the Blessed >Realmlive at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the >Unseen they have great power." > >Now WHAT on Middle-Earth [or off it] is Gandalf on about here? Did Elves >somehow change the nature of their being by living in Valinor for a few >years? What does this imply for the Elves who never went abroad? Yes, I think they grew greatly in stature. Remember, it wasn't "a few years", it was *ages*. We don't know how long the ages of stars lasted while Morgoth was bound, and ten after he was released but before he attacked the Trees. Remember when Fingolfin and his host were first marching in Middle-earth "and flowers sprang beneath his marching feet." True, this is at the same time as the first rising of the Sun, but note that the flowers sprang beneath his marching feet, *not* "all around him". Remember that even Thingol, who had just visited Valinor briefly, was still accounted one of the greatest in Middle-earth in the First Age, and not just because he married a Maia. (Great title for a sitcom: "I Married a Maia".) >> When Tom put the Ring on, it did not make him disappear because like >> Glorfindel, he *already* existed in both realities. So when Frodo >> puts on the Ring and enters the sprit-world Tom of course can see him. This is rather ingenious, and I don't think I've ever seen that point before. I *know* I've never thought of it myself. >I suppose the real test would be whether if Glorfindel put it on it >would make him invisible. Gandalf does not differentiate between types >of being, Firstborn, Secondborn, Hobbit or Dwarf when he says that Great >Rings Make their wearers invisible, so I'm not sure your assertion is >correct. Actually, I think he *does* differentiate, but mostly by omission. He talks a lot about the effects of the Great Rings on "mortals" -- and remember that he used that word to include only men and hobbits, not dwarves even though dwarves are mortal. For instance, in "The Shadow of the Past" he says "A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings." "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" in Silm also distinguishes the effects of the Rings on the different races, and only Men are mentioned as being made invisible by them. We talked through this at length just about a month ago. I at least found the citations convincing. >I think that for an Elf of however great a lineage his BODY would still >become invisible, but perhaps his eyes [Éowyn and the Witch King] or >some other manifestation of his spirit might still be visible in this >world. But we know that did not happen. Elrond and Galadriel were quite visible (though their Rings were somehow not noticed by anyone, save Frodo in Caras Galadhon. >Maia aren't made invisible by the Ring. Sauron was visible whilst >wearing it. At least Isildur described Sauron's "...hand, which was >black and yet burned like fire..." in his scroll and he never mentioned >Sauron being invisible during the combat with Gil-Galad and Elendil. And of course Gandalf was also quite visible wearing one of the Three. But your point about Sauron is well taken. Before we discussed the Rings in depth a month or so ago, I had always wondered how Isildur found Sauron's hand to cut off his finger and Ring. But of course since the Great Rings make only Men (and their close cousins the Hobbits) invisible, the difficulty vanishes: Sauron was fully visible, just as was any Elf or Dwarf wearing a Great Ring. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "JR" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000530145306.17424.00001538@nso-fg.aol.com> <393417B0.B1D03DF1@indigo.ie> Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Lines: 97 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 07:49:44 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.76.83.220 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 959759384 12.76.83.220 (Wed, 31 May 2000 07:49:44 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 07:49:44 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters3!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20377 Stan Brown wrote in message news:MPG.139e3ff0fda7841c98b18b@news.mindspring.com... > Said onq@indigo.ie (Michael O'Neill) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Russ wrote: > > > >> Gandalf tells Frodo that the Calaquendi have great power over those > >> who dwell in the unseen world; > > > >Gandalf actually makes the following intriguing statement about > >Glorfindel & Co.: > > > >"And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the > >Elven-wise, Lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do > >not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have lived in the Blessed > >Realmlive at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the > >Unseen they have great power." > > > >Now WHAT on Middle-Earth [or off it] is Gandalf on about here? Did Elves > >somehow change the nature of their being by living in Valinor for a few > >years? What does this imply for the Elves who never went abroad? > > Yes, I think they grew greatly in stature. Remember, it wasn't "a few > years", it was *ages*. We don't know how long the ages of stars lasted > while Morgoth was bound, and ten after he was released but before he > attacked the Trees. > > Remember when Fingolfin and his host were first marching in Middle-earth > "and flowers sprang beneath his marching feet." True, this is at the > same time as the first rising of the Sun, but note that the flowers > sprang beneath his marching feet, *not* "all around him". Remember that > even Thingol, who had just visited Valinor briefly, was still accounted > one of the greatest in Middle-earth in the First Age, and not just > because he married a Maia. > > (Great title for a sitcom: "I Married a Maia".) > > >> When Tom put the Ring on, it did not make him disappear because like > >> Glorfindel, he *already* existed in both realities. So when Frodo > >> puts on the Ring and enters the sprit-world Tom of course can see him. > > This is rather ingenious, and I don't think I've ever seen that point > before. I *know* I've never thought of it myself. > > >I suppose the real test would be whether if Glorfindel put it on it > >would make him invisible. Gandalf does not differentiate between types > >of being, Firstborn, Secondborn, Hobbit or Dwarf when he says that Great > >Rings Make their wearers invisible, so I'm not sure your assertion is > >correct. > > Actually, I think he *does* differentiate, but mostly by omission. He > talks a lot about the effects of the Great Rings on "mortals" -- and > remember that he used that word to include only men and hobbits, not > dwarves even though dwarves are mortal. For instance, in "The Shadow of > the Past" he says "A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, > does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely > continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often > uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end > invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the > dark power that rules the Rings." > > "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" in Silm also distinguishes the > effects of the Rings on the different races, and only Men are mentioned > as being made invisible by them. > > We talked through this at length just about a month ago. I at least > found the citations convincing. > > >I think that for an Elf of however great a lineage his BODY would still > >become invisible, but perhaps his eyes [Éowyn and the Witch King] or > >some other manifestation of his spirit might still be visible in this > >world. > > But we know that did not happen. Elrond and Galadriel were quite visible > (though their Rings were somehow not noticed by anyone, save Frodo in > Caras Galadhon. > > >Maia aren't made invisible by the Ring. Sauron was visible whilst > >wearing it. At least Isildur described Sauron's "...hand, which was > >black and yet burned like fire..." in his scroll and he never mentioned > >Sauron being invisible during the combat with Gil-Galad and Elendil. > > And of course Gandalf was also quite visible wearing one of the Three. > > But your point about Sauron is well taken. Before we discussed the Rings > in depth a month or so ago, I had always wondered how Isildur found > Sauron's hand to cut off his finger and Ring. But of course since the > Great Rings make only Men (and their close cousins the Hobbits) > invisible, the difficulty vanishes: Sauron was fully visible, just as > was any Elf or Dwarf wearing a Great Ring. > At one point in the Hobbit didn't bilbo use the ring to sneak up on Gandalf and the Dwarves? If so why didn't Gandalf see Him. ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000530145306.17424.00001538@nso-fg.aol.com> <393417B0.B1D03DF1@indigo.ie> Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Lines: 15 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 06:26:35 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.141.212.77 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 959768496 206.141.212.77 (Wed, 31 May 2000 06:21:36 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 06:21:36 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!feeder.via.net!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!206.141.251.3!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20365 JR wrote in message news:su3Z4.8092$Zm5.531632@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > > At one point in the Hobbit didn't bilbo use the ring to sneak up on Gandalf > and the Dwarves? > If so why didn't Gandalf see Him. Because his eyes were closed? Dave ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 31 May 2000 13:25:11 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000531092511.08997.00000987@nso-fn.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20408 In article , "JR" writes: >At one point in the Hobbit didn't bilbo use the ring to sneak up on Gandalf >and the Dwarves? >If so why didn't Gandalf see Him. > > Because he wasn't looking in that direction. Balin was supposed to be look-out at the time and the rest of the dwarves (especially Dori) were busy defending themselves to Gandalf for loosing Bilbo under the mountain. With Balin at the watch, no one else had reason to look anywhere but at the rest of the people they were having a conversation with. Breathe Peace PB "... the essence of myth [is] that it have no taint of allegory to the maker and yet should suggest incipient allegories to the reader..." C. S. Lewis, having read "The Lay of Leithian" ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (Wide China Blue Yonder) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 07:43:05 -0700 Organization: Collective against Consensual Sanity Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <20000531092511.08997.00000987@nso-fn.aol.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!c148.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20429 / >If so why didn't Gandalf see Him. / / Because he wasn't looking in that direction. Balin was supposed to be Gandalf's body was subject to other weaknesses of men's bodies. -- CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 Now a text site map! http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/cacs/ pretty? http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/5079/ :)-free zone. Cthulu in '00: .../cacs/politics.html ###### From: Piotr Auksztulewicz Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Date: 31 May 2000 17:33:58 +0200 Organization: Politechnika Slaska, Gliwice Lines: 22 Message-ID: <8h3bd6$dn4$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> References: <20000531092511.08997.00000987@nso-fn.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-981225 ("Volcane") (UNIX) (HP-UX/B.10.20 (9000/800)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!news.ipartners.pl!news.man.poznan.pl!polsl.gliwice.pl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20419 PaulB wrote: > Because he wasn't looking in that direction. Balin was supposed to be look-out > at the time and the rest of the dwarves (especially Dori) were busy defending > themselves to Gandalf for loosing Bilbo under the mountain. With Balin at the > watch, no one else had reason to look anywhere but at the rest of the people > they were having a conversation with. Hmmm, I don't think Gandalf could see someone wearing The Ring - at least not Bilbo: At that moment the door opened and Gandalf came quickly in. `Hullo!' said Bilbo. `I wondered if you would turn up.' `I am glad to find you visible,' replied the wizard, sitting down in a chair, `I wanted to catch you and have a few final words [...]' [The Fellowship of the Ring, Chapter 1: A Long-expected Party] -- Piotr Auksztulewicz piotras@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl Silesian Tech. Univ. Computer Center, 16 Akademicka St., Gliwice, Poland ###### Message-ID: <393534E2.4706E2@hotmail.com> From: Creole X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer References: <20000531092511.08997.00000987@nso-fn.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p23.j2.actcom.co.il Lines: 29 Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:50:58 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.114.47.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 959784769 192.114.47.10 (Wed, 31 May 2000 14:52:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 14:52:49 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20363 PaulB wrote: > >At one point in the Hobbit didn't bilbo use the ring to sneak up on Gandalf > >and the Dwarves? > >If so why didn't Gandalf see Him. > > > > > > Because he wasn't looking in that direction. Er, yes, most probably... but what about after the Battle of the Five Armies? Why didn't Gandalf spot him then? I will concede that if Gandalf had to wear a sling (and a very interesting observation that is, considering what it means to the concept of Maiar-turning-mortal) and was a little worse for wear -- and was quite possibly also busy trying to keep Thorin from dying -- he might not have been looking for Bilbo at all. The Elves' failure to see him can be attributed to their never having "gone to faery," as I believe Tolkien puts it in TH, but Gandalf should have been able to see him if he'd looked. So I guess he didn't, but then, why not? Bilbo was missing an entire night. Gandalf already knew that Bilbo's story was suspicious (at least, so I understand) and recognized that even a "lesser" magic ring could be dangerous to mortals, so why wasn't he more concerned about the little guy? Creole, who suspects she is talking in circles Creole ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 19:21:38 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8h3e7o$log$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <20000530145306.17424.00001538@nso-fg.aol.com> <393417B0.B1D03DF1@indigo.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-o011.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 959790136 22288 212.205.252.11 (31 May 2000 16:22:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 May 2000 16:22:16 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20383 Stan Brown wrote in message news:MPG.139e3ff0fda7841c98b18b@news.mindspring.com... > Said onq@indigo.ie (Michael O'Neill) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > > > >I suppose the real test would be whether if Glorfindel put it on it > >would make him invisible. Gandalf does not differentiate between types > >of being, Firstborn, Secondborn, Hobbit or Dwarf when he says that Great > >Rings Make their wearers invisible, so I'm not sure your assertion is > >correct. > > Actually, I think he *does* differentiate, but mostly by omission. He > talks a lot about the effects of the Great Rings on "mortals" -- and > remember that he used that word to include only men and hobbits, not > dwarves even though dwarves are mortal. Only in the sense that they can from aging, not in the sense that they can leave the world... In *that* sense, they are not mortal... Aris Katsaris ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Lines: 50 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 31 May 2000 16:35:28 GMT References: <8h3bd6$dn4$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000531123528.08062.00002017@nso-ct.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20397 In article <8h3bd6$dn4$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl>, Piotr Auksztulewicz writes: >Hmmm, I don't think Gandalf could see someone wearing The Ring - at least >not Bilbo: > > At that moment the door opened and Gandalf came quickly in. > `Hullo!' said Bilbo. `I wondered if you would turn up.' > `I am glad to find you visible,' replied the wizard, sitting > down in a chair, `I wanted to catch you and have a few final > words [...]' > > [The Fellowship of the Ring, Chapter 1: A Long-expected Party] I personally don't think Gandalf _could_ see Bilbo (or Frodo for that matter) if he was wearing the Ring for reasons related to your quote above. The question was brought up on the premise that because he most likely existed on the "other side" in a similar manner to Glorfindel, and because Tom, regardless his true nature, could see Frodo, Gandalf, who probably has a nature equal to or greater than Tom, should also bee able to see the ringwearer. Given the premise, my post was a plausable reason, but not one I believe is necessary, as I don't accept the premise. Going with the premise again, however, Gandalf may not have see Bilbo after the Battle of the Five Armies simply because he did not personally check every square yard of the battle theatre. Once again, this is a wishy-washy answer with treads on grounds closely akin to "plausable deniability," but I would guess that if one were to insist on the premise, then a similar reason could be developed for each questionable instance. I suppose that a reason for him not being able to see Frodo while Frodo could see Glorfindel is that the Ring makes the other world more visable to the wearer but not the wearer more visable to the other world. This leaves Tom, but as Tom is such an anomally in many ways, I feel OK about this being yet just another anomally. Not perfectly confident, mind you, but given what is (not) known about Tom, I can allow for an uneasy acceptance of this view as the most plausable. If too many of Tom's anomally's were explained, I fear that Tolkien would have been forced to have Tom cease to be unique, a trait that I greatly appreciate in the character. Therefore that "necessity of uniqueness" I put on Tom allows for such an explaination. Breathe Peace PB "... the essence of myth [is] that it have no taint of allegory to the maker and yet should suggest incipient allegories to the reader..." C. S. Lewis, having read "The Lay of Leithian" ###### From: "Jim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:56:40 -0700 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 46 Message-ID: <8h393u$i1q$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <20000530145306.17424.00001538@nso-fg.aol.com> <393417B0.B1D03DF1@indigo.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-207.alaska.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news6.svr.pol.co.uk 959784894 18490 62.137.53.207 (31 May 2000 14:54:54 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 May 2000 14:54:54 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20379 Stan Brown wrote in message ... >Yes, I think they grew greatly in stature. Remember, it wasn't "a few >years", it was *ages*. We don't know how long the ages of stars lasted >while Morgoth was bound, and ten after he was released but before he >attacked the Trees. The morgul blades of the riders could make someone enter the other world in a negative fasion, breathing the air of Valinor, eating the food of Valinor etc maybe has a similar affect but in a positive sence. >Remember when Fingolfin and his host were first marching in Middle-earth >"and flowers sprang beneath his marching feet." True, this is at the >same time as the first rising of the Sun, but note that the flowers >sprang beneath his marching feet, *not* "all around him I think this is probably not meant literaly :) but means that they started to notice flowers popping up in the area where they were marching. >(Great title for a sitcom: "I Married a Maia".) Note that for once the e-text project is finished :) >>> When Tom put the Ring on, it did not make him disappear because like >>> Glorfindel, he *already* existed in both realities. So when Frodo >>> puts on the Ring and enters the sprit-world Tom of course can see him. > >This is rather ingenious, and I don't think I've ever seen that point >before. I *know* I've never thought of it myself. Yes I like that point a lot. >But we know that did not happen. Elrond and Galadriel were quite visible >(though their Rings were somehow not noticed by anyone, save Frodo in >Caras Galadhon. Maybe when you have actually learned to use your ring fully you can 'turn off' invisibility? Jim D ###### From: "Jim" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:11:13 -0700 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 24 Message-ID: <8h3h06$mjk$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <8h3bd6$dn4$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> <20000531123528.08062.00002017@nso-ct.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-22.damrod.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news6.svr.pol.co.uk 959792966 23156 62.136.152.22 (31 May 2000 17:09:26 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 31 May 2000 17:09:26 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!bignews.mediaways.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20381 PaulB wrote in message <20000531123528.08062.00002017@nso-ct.aol.com>... > I suppose that a reason for him not being able to see Frodo while Frodo >could see Glorfindel is that the Ring makes the other world more visable to the >wearer but not the wearer more visable to the other world I disagree with this on the grounds of the following quote from Gandalf (Many meetings P238) '....You were in gravest peril while you wore the ring, for then you were half in the wraith world yourself, and they might have siezed you. You could see them, and they could see you.' As for gandalf not seeing Bilbo....Maybe he was just not looking in Bilbo's direction, or maybe part of his limitations as a Wizard in a mans body was that he could only see the real world through it. If that is so, I believe that when he returned as the White Gandalf that limitation was removed, he certainly seems to glow more as the White. Jim D ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer References: <8h3bd6$dn4$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> <20000531123528.08062.00002017@nso-ct.aol.com> <8h3h06$mjk$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> Reply-To: coren@spdcc.com Organization: Pigs in Blankets From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Lines: 25 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:36:16 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.237.113 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 959794576 24.128.237.113 (Wed, 31 May 2000 13:36:16 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:36:16 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!cyclone.nyroc.rr.com!news.nyroc.rr.com!news.rr.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20530 In article <8h3h06$mjk$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Jim wrote: > >As for gandalf not seeing Bilbo....Maybe he was just not looking in Bilbo's >direction, or maybe part of his limitations as a Wizard in a mans body was >that he could only see the real world through it. I think the latter is the correct interpretation as well, especially given Gandalf's remark (quoted earlier in this thread) about being "glad to find [Bilbo] visible". Note that any or all of these would be "back-explanations" for Gandalf's failure to see Bilbo in _The Hobbit_; at the time it was written, Gandalf was a "wizard" but not a Maia, and the Ring was not a "Ring of Power" but simply a magic ring that made its wearer invisible. >If that is so, I believe >that when he returned as the White Gandalf that limitation was removed, he >certainly seems to glow more as the White. Quite possibly. Gandalf the White never encountered Frodo while the Ring existed, so we'll never know for sure. -- ---Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)------- "...and in the Eighth Square we shall be Queens together, and it's all feasting and fun!" --Lewis Carroll, _Through the Looking Glass_ ###### From: "Jonathan White" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 21:52:22 +0100 Message-ID: <959806918.17069.1.nnrp-06.c2de803c@news.demon.co.uk> References: <20000530145306.17424.00001538@nso-fg.aol.com> <393417B0.B1D03DF1@indigo.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: rebeccaj.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: rebeccaj.demon.co.uk:194.222.128.60 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 959806918 nnrp-06:17069 NO-IDENT rebeccaj.demon.co.uk:194.222.128.60 X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Lines: 18 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!europa.netcrusader.net!194.176.220.129!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!news.demon.co.uk!demon!rebeccaj.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20533 "JR" wrote in message news:su3Z4.8092$Zm5.531632@bgtnsc06- (snip) Please snip un-necessary quotation from your posts - some of us have to pay to download news you know... (though at least its not html or binary! ;-)) For more info, please see Steuard's excellant FAQ at:- http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/TolkNgFaq.html DISCLAIMER: This is meant as a friendly reminder, not a flame, or a rant or an expression of personal hatred! Jon ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 31 May 2000 22:15:38 GMT References: <959806918.17069.1.nnrp-06.c2de803c@news.demon.co.uk> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000531181538.02224.00001777@nso-fj.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20489 In article <959806918.17069.1.nnrp-06.c2de803c@news.demon.co.uk>, "Jonathan White" writes: >DISCLAIMER: This is meant as a friendly reminder, not a flame, or a rant or >an expression of personal hatred! Wimp Russ ###### Message-ID: <3936184D.4478EB3B@indigo.ie> From: Michael O'Neill Organization: O'Neill Quigley & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer References: <959806918.17069.1.nnrp-06.c2de803c@news.demon.co.uk> <20000531181538.02224.00001777@nso-fj.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 13 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 09:01:17 +0100 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.125.145.157 X-Complaints-To: news@indigo.ie X-Trace: news.indigo.ie 959846500 194.125.145.157 (Thu, 01 Jun 2000 09:01:40 BST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 09:01:40 BST Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.indigo.ie!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20542 Russ wrote: > > In article <959806918.17069.1.nnrp-06.c2de803c@news.demon.co.uk>, "Jonathan > White" writes: > > >DISCLAIMER: This is meant as a friendly reminder, not a flame, or a rant or > >an expression of personal hatred! > > Wimp Pussy M. ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <3936242f.169230395@news.verio.net> References: <20000531092511.08997.00000987@nso-fn.aol.com> <393534E2.4706E2@hotmail.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 25 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 08:59:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.161 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 959849886 198.172.26.161 (Thu, 01 Jun 2000 08:58:06 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 08:58:06 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!netnews.com!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20458 On Wed, 31 May 2000 17:50:58 +0200, Creole wrote: >So I guess he didn't, but then, why not? Bilbo was missing an >entire night. Gandalf already knew that Bilbo's story was >suspicious (at least, so I understand) and recognized that even a >"lesser" magic ring could be dangerous to mortals, so why wasn't >he more concerned about the little guy? He was concerned enough to do some research so that he could identify the ring. Why didn't he immediately take it away from Bilbo? Think about it from Gandalf's perspective. The Ring was probably a minor ring, dangerous to a mortal but entirely safe (and virtually worthless apart from its historical significance) for him. But if it turned out that it was one of the Great Rings, it would actually be safer in Bilbo's hands than in Gandalf's, especially if Bilbo didn't know what it was. As long as Bilbo believed the Ring was just a neat magical trinket, there was no risk that he'd try to use it as an instrument of power. It was safest to let him keep it without suggesting to him that it might be dangerous. Gandalf only intervened when he discovered that it was likely to be the One, and therefore that Sauron would be coming after it. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:30:41 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <20000531092511.08997.00000987@nso-fn.aol.com> <393534E2.4706E2@hotmail.com> <3936242f.169230395@news.verio.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.cd.22 X-Server-Date: 1 Jun 2000 13:27:13 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20535 Said mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >He was concerned enough to do some research so that he could identify >the ring. > >Why didn't he immediately take it away from Bilbo [theory snipped] Are you forgetting what Gandalf himself said to Frodo on this subject: Gandalf knew that he had no right to it. And he knew *that* long before he know what the Bilbo's ring was. "Clearly the ring had an unwholesome power that set to work on its keeper at once. That was the first real warning I had that all was not well. I told Bilbo often that such rings were better left unused; but he resented it, and soon got angry. There was little else that I could do. I could not take it from him without doing greater harm; and I had no right to do so anyway." -- from "The Shadow of the Past" in LotR -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 01 Jun 2000 15:11:47 GMT References: <393680F0.A1543034@hotmail.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000601111147.11244.00001824@nso-fa.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20479 In article <393680F0.A1543034@hotmail.com>, Creole writes: >Sorry, I guess the question wasn't clear. > >While your subsequent comments (the snipped ones) make plenty of >sense, the thread has been questioning whether or not Gandalf, as >a Maiar, could see someone wearing the One. Since the question >has pretty clearly been answered in other posts (no), my own >question was a moot point; but I was wondering why, if Gandalf >_could_ see Bilbo when he wore the Ring, left the poor guy lying >outside in the cold all night long instead of hunting for him >after the Battle of Five Armies was over. There were thousands of dead on the battlefield and Bilbo was in an out of the way part of it. Gandalf himself was wounded and was apparently helping to tend the wounded himself. >But we'll forgive him, since he couldn't see Bilbo anyway. :) Russ ###### Message-ID: <393680F0.A1543034@hotmail.com> From: Creole X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer References: <20000531092511.08997.00000987@nso-fn.aol.com> <393534E2.4706E2@hotmail.com> <3936242f.169230395@news.verio.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NNTP-Posting-Host: p29.j2.actcom.co.il Lines: 35 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 17:27:44 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.114.47.10 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 959869793 192.114.47.10 (Thu, 01 Jun 2000 14:29:53 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 14:29:53 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20446 Mark Wells wrote: > > Gandalf already knew that Bilbo's story was > >suspicious (at least, so I understand) and recognized that even a > >"lesser" magic ring could be dangerous to mortals, so why wasn't > >he more concerned about the little guy? > > He was concerned enough to do some research so that he could identify > the ring. > > Why didn't he immediately take it away from Bilbo? ... Sorry, I guess the question wasn't clear. While your subsequent comments (the snipped ones) make plenty of sense, the thread has been questioning whether or not Gandalf, as a Maiar, could see someone wearing the One. Since the question has pretty clearly been answered in other posts (no), my own question was a moot point; but I was wondering why, if Gandalf _could_ see Bilbo when he wore the Ring, left the poor guy lying outside in the cold all night long instead of hunting for him after the Battle of Five Armies was over. But we'll forgive him, since he couldn't see Bilbo anyway. :) BTW -- As I understand it, the original TH had Bilbo telling the dwarves that Gollum gave it to him as a present, with the truth coming out later. Several people have commented on Tolkien's gifts on finding an inner-story reason for the discrepancy. Is there anywhere I can actually read the orginal, or does it involve somehow hunting down old editions? Creole ###### From: Stug Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 14:08:58 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 34 Message-ID: <3936A6BA.152CB969@telerama.com> References: <20000530145306.17424.00001538@nso-fg.aol.com> <393417B0.B1D03DF1@indigo.ie> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20558 Michael O'Neill wrote: > I suppose the real test would be whether if Glorfindel put it on it > would make him invisible. Gandalf does not differentiate between types > of being, Firstborn, Secondborn, Hobbit or Dwarf when he says that Great > Rings Make their wearers invisible, so I'm not sure your assertion is > correct. > > I think that for an Elf of however great a lineage his BODY would still > become invisible, but perhaps his eyes [Éowyn and the Witch King] or > some other manifestation of his spirit might still be visible in this > world. It wasn't that Elves were not made invisible by the Great Rings, but that the three Elven Rings did not confer invisibility on the wearer. JRRT said that in one of his letters (I don't know the number off-hand). I don't know about an elf putting on the One Ring, though. Also, it would seem to me that even though Sauron wasn't involuntarily made invisible when wearing the ring, he probably had the ability to use that power at will. Why would you imbue a magic ring with such a useful feature that didn't work for yourself? Unless the invisibilty was a side effect and not a power. Perhaps for Sauron it gave him the ability to move free about among various worlds or planes, whereas on mortals it only partially hid them from the material world. One drawback of invisibility, however, is that you also become blind, since your retinas are also made invisible and therefore unable to catch any light to allow you to see. Obviously, the One Ring is free of this shortcoming. Stug -- "I don't know half of you half as well as I would like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve". -- BB ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer References: <20000530145306.17424.00001538@nso-fg.aol.com> <393417B0.B1D03DF1@indigo.ie> <3936A6BA.152CB969@telerama.com> Reply-To: coren@spdcc.com Organization: Pigs in Blankets From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Lines: 20 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 18:35:05 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.237.113 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 959884505 24.128.237.113 (Thu, 01 Jun 2000 14:35:05 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 14:35:05 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!24.92.226.72!cyclone.nyroc.rr.com!news.nyroc.rr.com!news.rr.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20684 In article <3936A6BA.152CB969@telerama.com>, Stug wrote: > It wasn't that Elves were not made invisible by the Great Rings, but > that the three Elven Rings did not confer invisibility on the wearer. > JRRT said that in one of his letters (I don't know the number > off-hand). I don't know about an elf putting on the One Ring, though. > Also, it would seem to me that even though Sauron wasn't involuntarily > made invisible when wearing the ring, he probably had the ability to > use that power at will. I once again remind all parties that there is never a word said about the effects of Great Rings on anyone other than mortals, so there's really no basis even for speculation on whether the One would render an Elf or a Maia invisible. No immortal other than Sauron ever wore the One (apart from Bombadil, from whose example nothing whatever can be extrapolated). -- ---Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)------- "Noise proves nothing. Often a hen who has merely laid an egg cackles as if she had laid an asteroid." -- Mark Twain ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:49:29 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 50 Message-ID: <8h6b96$r6e$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <20000531092511.08997.00000987@nso-fn.aol.com> <393534E2.4706E2@hotmail.com> <3936242f.169230395@news.verio.net> <393680F0.A1543034@hotmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-q214.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 959885414 27854 212.205.254.214 (1 Jun 2000 18:50:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 2000 18:50:14 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20584 Creole wrote in message news:393680F0.A1543034@hotmail.com... > Mark Wells wrote: > > > > Gandalf already knew that Bilbo's story was > > >suspicious (at least, so I understand) and recognized that even a > > >"lesser" magic ring could be dangerous to mortals, so why wasn't > > >he more concerned about the little guy? > > > > He was concerned enough to do some research so that he could identify > > the ring. > > > > Why didn't he immediately take it away from Bilbo? ... > > > > Sorry, I guess the question wasn't clear. > > While your subsequent comments (the snipped ones) make plenty of > sense, the thread has been questioning whether or not Gandalf, as > a Maiar, could see someone wearing the One. Since the question > has pretty clearly been answered in other posts (no), my own > question was a moot point; but I was wondering why, if Gandalf > _could_ see Bilbo when he wore the Ring, left the poor guy lying > outside in the cold all night long instead of hunting for him > after the Battle of Five Armies was over. > > But we'll forgive him, since he couldn't see Bilbo anyway. :) > > BTW -- As I understand it, the original TH had Bilbo telling the > dwarves that Gollum gave it to him as a present, with the truth > coming out later. Not exactly. The original TH had Gollum actually betting the ring and also leading him out. No chase or leap in the dark. It had the "false" story that Bilbo said actually recorded as the true one- no other chapter was influenced by this. From what I gather, there was no hint that this story was untrue. Then Tolkien had the chapter changed, so that the chase, the leap and the curse "We hates you for ever" took place... He incorporated the first edition of the book as the lie that Bilbo said to the dwarves... But in neither version of the "Hobbit" is there a suggestion that the true story wasn't spoken by Bilbo... Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:54:04 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 35 Message-ID: <8h6bhs$r81$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <20000530145306.17424.00001538@nso-fg.aol.com> <393417B0.B1D03DF1@indigo.ie> <3936A6BA.152CB969@telerama.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-q214.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 959885692 27905 212.205.254.214 (1 Jun 2000 18:54:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 Jun 2000 18:54:52 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20598 Robert S. Coren wrote in message news:t1yZ4.56875$nl3.165596@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net... > In article <3936A6BA.152CB969@telerama.com>, Stug wrote: > > > It wasn't that Elves were not made invisible by the Great Rings, but > > that the three Elven Rings did not confer invisibility on the wearer. > > JRRT said that in one of his letters (I don't know the number > > off-hand). I don't know about an elf putting on the One Ring, though. > > Also, it would seem to me that even though Sauron wasn't involuntarily > > made invisible when wearing the ring, he probably had the ability to > > use that power at will. > > I once again remind all parties that there is never a word said about > the effects of Great Rings on anyone other than mortals, so there's > really no basis even for speculation on whether the One would render > an Elf or a Maia invisible. We know that the three elven Great Rings didn't make their elven or Maiar wearers invisible. Saruman's ring (if it was anything more than a trinket) didn't make Saruman invisible either... The dwarven rings don't seem to have made their wearers invisible either. But that's almost certainly because of the dwarves, not because of the rings. So either elves and Maiar weren't made invisible, or the Elven rings didn't make people in general invisible. But I wouldn't there's no basis at all for speculation... Aris Katsaris ###### Message-ID: <3936B1B4.207CC64F@po-box.mcgill.ca> From: Carl Blondin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer References: <20000531092511.08997.00000987@nso-fn.aol.com> <393534E2.4706E2@hotmail.com> <3936242f.169230395@news.verio.net> <393680F0.A1543034@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 18:55:27 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.168.182.31 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mcgill.ca X-Trace: carnaval.risq.qc.ca 959885727 198.168.182.31 (Thu, 01 Jun 2000 14:55:27 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 14:55:27 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.netscum.dk.MISMATCH!CensurBot!news.tele.dk!News.Tele.DK!news.tele.dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!carnaval.risq.qc.ca.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20570 Creole wrote: > > > > BTW -- As I understand it, the original TH had Bilbo telling the > dwarves that Gollum gave it to him as a present, with the truth > coming out later. Several people have commented on Tolkien's > gifts on finding an inner-story reason for the discrepancy. Is > there anywhere I can actually read the orginal, or does it > involve somehow hunting down old editions? > > The only I managed to find the original was in McGill's library. But i think you can also find the complete original text in the Annotated Hobbit, which, btw, I'd like to get my hands on. Carl ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Jun 2000 02:04:53 GMT References: <393680F0.A1543034@hotmail.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000601220453.10799.00002007@nso-fb.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20613 In article <393680F0.A1543034@hotmail.com>, Creole writes: >BTW -- As I understand it, the original TH had Bilbo telling the >dwarves that Gollum gave it to him as a present, with the truth >coming out later. Several people have commented on Tolkien's >gifts on finding an inner-story reason for the discrepancy. Is >there anywhere I can actually read the orginal, or does it >involve somehow hunting down old editions? > > "The Annotated Hobbit" has all the alternate reditions of various passages and phrases used from edition to edition as one of its appendices. The original version of that section is there. Unfortunately it is out of print though. Good luck. Breathe Peace PB "... the essence of myth [is] that it have no taint of allegory to the maker and yet should suggest incipient allegories to the reader..." C. S. Lewis, having read "The Lay of Leithian" ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 08:29:34 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <393680F0.A1543034@hotmail.com> <20000601220453.10799.00002007@nso-fb.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.cc.d6 X-Server-Date: 2 Jun 2000 12:27:00 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!psiuk-p4!uknet!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20681 Said pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >"The Annotated Hobbit" has all the alternate reditions of various passages and >phrases used from edition to edition as one of its appendices. The original >version of that section is there. Unfortunately it is out of print though. >Good luck. Out-of-print books can easily be found at . In particular, TWELVE copies of /The Annotated Hobbit/, priced from $15 to $50, are available. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer References: <20000530145306.17424.00001538@nso-fg.aol.com> <3936A6BA.152CB969@telerama.com> <8h6bhs$r81$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> Reply-To: coren@spdcc.com Organization: Pigs in Blankets From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Lines: 35 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 16:14:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.237.113 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 959962471 24.128.237.113 (Fri, 02 Jun 2000 12:14:31 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 12:14:31 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.eurocyber.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20680 In article <8h6bhs$r81$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>, Aris Katsaris wrote: > >Robert S. Coren wrote in message >> >> I once again remind all parties that there is never a word said about >> the effects of Great Rings on anyone other than mortals, so there's >> really no basis even for speculation on whether the One would render >> an Elf or a Maia invisible. > >We know that the three elven Great Rings didn't make their elven or Maiar >wearers invisible. Saruman's ring (if it was anything more than a trinket) >didn't make Saruman invisible either... We know exactly one thing about Saruman's ring: that he was wearing it when Gandalf came to see him at Orthanc during the summer of 3018. > >The dwarven rings don't seem to have made their wearers invisible either. >But that's almost certainly because of the dwarves, not because of the >rings. > >So either elves and Maiar weren't made invisible, or the Elven rings didn't >make people in general invisible. But I wouldn't there's no basis at all for >speculation... Well, let me put it this way: nothing we are actually told about the One Ring gives us any information about whether it would render Elves invisible. So yeah, we can speculate, and just about any answer is defensible on the basis of what one thinks is reasonable. This doesn't meet my definition of *fruitful* speculation. -- ---Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)------- "There is altogether too much searching for meaning in this world. Who understands a buttercup?" --Walt Kelly ###### From: rlmck2@aol.com (RLMcK2) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Jun 2000 18:07:09 GMT References: <8h3h06$mjk$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000602140709.08997.00001341@nso-fn.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.netscum.dk.MISMATCH!CensurBot!news.tele.dk!News.Tele.DK!news.tele.dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20620 Perhaps this is all a matter of perspective and poetry. Sauron's ring and the Nazgul were IIRC frequently associated with shadow and darkness. Perhaps this resonates in the unseen world. Despite being visible, their nature as shadowy creatures is still pronounced. Likewise, the association of the Eldar and the Maia with light (particularly Gandalf, a "servant of the secret fire") is similarly pronounced. It would therefore be consistent that in the unseen realm, Glorfindel would be visible to all as a figure of light, but the Nazgul and the ringbearer would not be so visible to Eldar or Maia, being dark and shadowy. They would, however, be able to spot their kindred, however. That just leaves Bombadil ... ###### From: raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer References: <20000530145306.17424.00001538@nso-fg.aol.com> <393417B0.B1D03DF1@indigo.ie> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 8 Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 01:26:15 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.62.185.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@asiaonline.net X-Trace: news.interact.net.au 959995575 203.62.185.20 (Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:26:15 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:26:15 EST Organization: an Asia Online client - http://www.asiaonline.net/ X-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 11:26:15 EST (news.interact.net.au) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.cwix.com!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!news.interact.net.au!raka Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20765 >At one point in the Hobbit didn't bilbo use the ring to sneak up on Gandalf >and the Dwarves? >If so why didn't Gandalf see Him. > That is another one of those things whose true explanation is story external. Lots of story internal excuses can be made though. Don't know if JRRT even noticed this one though. ###### From: mlindanne@hotmail.com (Wide China Blue Yonder) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 07:00:28 -0700 Organization: Collective against Consensual Sanity Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <20000530145306.17424.00001538@nso-fg.aol.com> <3936A6BA.152CB969@telerama.com> <8h6bhs$r81$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Hello-Kitty: meow meow. X-Should: Prancing green elves on yellow daisy fields. X-Should-not: You're not allowed. X-Newsgroup-Bomb: Crossposted to heck and back. X-Ray-Specs: Off. X-Traneous-Reference: Kibo X-NSA-Bait: wiretap pgp cryptoterrorist rsa des Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!logbridge.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!c181.ppp.tsoft.com!user Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20736 / Well, let me put it this way: nothing we are actually told about the / One Ring gives us any information about whether it would render Elves / invisible. So yeah, we can speculate, and just about any answer is / defensible on the basis of what one thinks is reasonable. This doesn't / meet my definition of *fruitful* speculation. I wonder bout the comments of too little butter on too much bread, on the rings didn't give mortals more life, but just stretched what they had. Because men (nd Hobbits) were only trnsient, maybe the rings attentuated whatever substance they hve and render them invisible. Elves nd Maiar, being confined to this world, ould not be ttenuted. -- CACS: Collective Against Consensual Sanity v0.123 Now a text site map! http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/cacs/ pretty? http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/5079/ :)-free zone. Cthulu in '00: .../cacs/politics.html ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 01:11:01 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8hek74$js8$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <20000530145306.17424.00001538@nso-fg.aol.com> <393417B0.B1D03DF1@indigo.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-q190.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 960156708 20360 212.205.254.190 (4 Jun 2000 22:11:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Jun 2000 22:11:48 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!195.238.2.15!skynet.be!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20930 Adrian Ratnapala wrote in message news:slrn8jgnld.lg.raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au... > > >At one point in the Hobbit didn't bilbo use the ring to sneak up on Gandalf > >and the Dwarves? > >If so why didn't Gandalf see Him. > > > That is another one of those things whose true explanation is > story external. Lots of story internal excuses can be made though. > Don't know if JRRT even noticed this one though. I don't think it's an excuse to say that Istari couldn't see invisible beings... If they *could* see invisible beings - it's then that we would require an explanation or excuse... Aris Katsaris ###### From: raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer References: <20000530145306.17424.00001538@nso-fg.aol.com> <393417B0.B1D03DF1@indigo.ie> <8hek74$js8$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 22 Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 01:14:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.62.185.202 X-Complaints-To: abuse@asiaonline.net X-Trace: news.interact.net.au 960426897 203.62.185.202 (Thu, 08 Jun 2000 11:14:57 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 11:14:57 EST Organization: an Asia Online client - http://www.asiaonline.net/ X-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 11:14:57 EST (news.interact.net.au) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.can.connect.com.au!news.interact.net.au!raka Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21161 On Mon, 5 Jun 2000 01:11:01 +0300, Aris Katsaris wrote: > >Adrian Ratnapala wrote in message >news:slrn8jgnld.lg.raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au... >> >> >At one point in the Hobbit didn't bilbo use the ring to sneak up on >Gandalf >> >and the Dwarves? >> >If so why didn't Gandalf see Him. >> > >> That is another one of those things whose true explanation is >> story external. Lots of story internal excuses can be made though. >> Don't know if JRRT even noticed this one though. > >I don't think it's an excuse to say that Istari couldn't see invisible >beings... >If they *could* see invisible beings - it's then that we would require >an explanation or excuse... I thought this thread had someone saying the Istari (or Maia in general) *could* see ringbearers, (that and they don't themselves turn invisible). I can't really remember why this thread had decided this though. ###### From: raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer References: <20000530145306.17424.00001538@nso-fg.aol.com> <3936A6BA.152CB969@telerama.com> <8h6bhs$r81$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 13 Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 01:18:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.62.185.202 X-Complaints-To: abuse@asiaonline.net X-Trace: news.interact.net.au 960427081 203.62.185.202 (Thu, 08 Jun 2000 11:18:01 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 11:18:01 EST Organization: an Asia Online client - http://www.asiaonline.net/ X-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 11:18:01 EST (news.interact.net.au) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.can.connect.com.au!news.interact.net.au!raka Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21311 On Sat, 03 Jun 2000 07:00:28 -0700, Wide China Blue Yonder wrote: >I wonder bout the comments of too little butter on too much bread, on the >rings didn't give mortals more life, but just stretched what they had. >Because men (nd Hobbits) were only trnsient, maybe the rings attentuated >whatever substance they hve and render them invisible. Elves nd Maiar, >being confined to this world, ould not be ttenuted. I think it does have a little to do with that. The "fading" is clearly a form of attenuation, and clearly the fading is somehow akin to the invisibility. I can't work out the details though, and I don't think JRRT bothered. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:24:00 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <20000530145306.17424.00001538@nso-fg.aol.com> <393417B0.B1D03DF1@indigo.ie> <8hek74$js8$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.ce.85 X-Server-Date: 8 Jun 2000 04:25:56 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21304 Said raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >I thought this thread had someone saying the Istari (or Maia in >general) *could* see ringbearers, (that and they don't themselves >turn invisible). I can't really remember why this thread had >decided this though. Easy-- Gandalf was a Maia, he wore a Ring, and he was still visible. By the same token we know that Elves were not made invisible by the Great Rings since Elrond and Galadriel were fully visible. But as for the converse -- the claim that Maiar could see mortals who were wearing Rings -- I'm very skeptical. Certainly we know Gandalf could not see Bilbo in /The Hobbit/, but on the other hand there are lots of inconsistencies between /The Hobbit/ and LotR. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 19:19:01 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 27 Message-ID: <8hoh2u$6mc$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <20000530145306.17424.00001538@nso-fg.aol.com> <393417B0.B1D03DF1@indigo.ie> <8hek74$js8$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p236.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 960481182 6860 212.205.253.236 (8 Jun 2000 16:19:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 Jun 2000 16:19:42 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21206 Stan Brown wrote in message news:MPG.13a8e9e8d07b09e198b1e2@news.mindspring.com... > Said raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >I thought this thread had someone saying the Istari (or Maia in > >general) *could* see ringbearers, (that and they don't themselves > >turn invisible). I can't really remember why this thread had > >decided this though. > > Easy-- Gandalf was a Maia, he wore a Ring, and he was still visible. By > the same token we know that Elves were not made invisible by the Great > Rings since Elrond and Galadriel were fully visible. > > But as for the converse -- the claim that Maiar could see mortals who > were wearing Rings -- I'm very skeptical. Certainly we know Gandalf > could not see Bilbo in /The Hobbit/, but on the other hand there are > lots of inconsistencies between /The Hobbit/ and LotR. There's no hint anywhere that Maiar in general could see invisible mortals. Tom Bombadil is an exception to this ofcourse, but he's an exception to everything where the Ring is concerned... he's his own master. Aris Katsaris ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 08 Jun 2000 16:38:01 GMT References: <8hoh2u$6mc$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000608123801.15983.00002661@nso-fk.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21227 In article <8hoh2u$6mc$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>, "Aris Katsaris" writes: >> But as for the converse -- the claim that Maiar could see mortals who >> were wearing Rings -- I'm very skeptical. Certainly we know Gandalf >> could not see Bilbo in /The Hobbit/, but on the other hand there are >> lots of inconsistencies between /The Hobbit/ and LotR. > >There's no hint anywhere that Maiar in general could see invisible >mortals. Tom Bombadil is an exception to this ofcourse, but he's >an exception to everything where the Ring is concerned... he's his >own master. Question: Is it said anywhere that wearing one of the Three did not make on invisible? Or is it possible the reason it did not make the wearers invisible is because they were Elves or incarnate maia who exist at once in the visible in invisible realm so that aspect of the great rings does not affect them? Russ ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8hoh2u$6mc$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <20000608123801.15983.00002661@nso-fk.aol.com> Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Lines: 19 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4029.2901 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:27:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.65.1.87 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 960496042 12.65.1.87 (Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:27:22 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:27:22 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.71!wnfilter1!worldnet-localpost!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21194 "Russ" wrote in message news:20000608123801.15983.00002661@nso-fk.aol.com... > Question: Is it said anywhere that wearing one of the Three did > not make on invisible? Yes. "The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful Rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility." Letters #131 The same letter specifies that the power of invisibility was "more directly derived from Sauron" - which provides an explanation for the power being lacking in the Three Rings he was not directly involved in the making of. ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 08 Jun 2000 20:45:18 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000608164518.15680.00002694@nso-bj.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21229 In article , "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: >> Question: Is it said anywhere that wearing one of the Three did >> not make on invisible? > >Yes. > >"The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful >Rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the >preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility." >Letters #131 > >The same letter specifies that the power of invisibility was >"more directly derived from Sauron" - which provides an explanation >for the power being lacking in the Three Rings he was not directly >involved in the making of. > Interesting. Now, as we know, what's going on is not really invisibility per se. What's going on is the wearer is fading into the unseen world. Now Elves would have no reason to build that feature into their Rings since they already exist in both realms. However, Sauron, who apparently had a grand scheme in mind, might have infected the other Rings of Power with this feature knowing that he intended to use them to draw servants into his service and *keep them there for eons* by fading and stretching them into the unseen world. Does this make sense? Russ ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 21:44:06 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <20000530145306.17424.00001538@nso-fg.aol.com> <393417B0.B1D03DF1@indigo.ie> <8hek74$js8$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8hoh2u$6mc$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.cc.bb X-Server-Date: 9 Jun 2000 01:45:59 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.netscum.dk.MISMATCH!CensurBot!news.tele.dk!News.Tele.DK!news.tele.dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21155 Said katsaris@otenet.gr (Aris Katsaris) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >There's no hint anywhere that Maiar in general could see invisible >mortals. Tom Bombadil is an exception to this ofcourse, but he's >an exception to everything where the Ring is concerned... he's his >own master. I don't think he *is* an exception, because he is nowhere identified as a Maia. He's an exception to the rule "nobody can see mortals who wear rings", but since he's not a Maia he can't be the exception to any rule about Maiar. Tolkien implies in a Letter that Tom is one of a kind, a deliberate mystery (not Iluvatar, of course). -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://oakroadsystems.com Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm ###### From: Ian McDonald Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 13:04:00 +0100 Organization: University of Durham, Durham, UK. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3940DD30.E9263887@dur.ac.uk> References: <8hoh2u$6mc$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <20000608123801.15983.00002661@nso-fk.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: edsb18.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,zh Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21310 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > "Russ" wrote in message > news:20000608123801.15983.00002661@nso-fk.aol.com... > > > Question: Is it said anywhere that wearing one of the Three did > > not make on invisible? > > Yes. > > "The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful > Rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the > preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility." > Letters #131 > > The same letter specifies that the power of invisibility was > "more directly derived from Sauron" - which provides an explanation > for the power being lacking in the Three Rings he was not directly > involved in the making of. However, the ring itself seems to have been invisible (or unrecognisable), cf. TT, 'Mirror of Galadriel', when Frodo realizes what he had taken to be a star on her finger to be one of the Three... ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000608164518.15680.00002694@nso-bj.aol.com> Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4029.2901 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Message-ID: <6gf05.2671$ov1.178530@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 23:40:50 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.25.170 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 960594050 12.79.25.170 (Fri, 09 Jun 2000 23:40:50 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 23:40:50 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters3!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21352 "Russ" wrote in message news:20000608164518.15680.00002694@nso-bj.aol.com... > However, Sauron, who apparently had a grand scheme in mind, might > have infected the other Rings of Power with this feature knowing > that he intended to use them to draw servants into his service > and *keep them there for eons* by fading and stretching them into > the unseen world. Does this make sense? Yes, though it doesn't explain why the One would have the same powers and effects... though elsewhere it is also said that the One incorporated the powers of ALL the other Rings, so perhaps it 'inherited the invisibility from the Seven and the Nine. I think the invisibility and associated permanent fading might be part of the general feature of 'control' that Sauron was trying to build into the Rings... for instance while the Dwarves did not become invisible, fade, or fall under Sauron's dominance they were still influenced by the Rings in ways beneficial to Sauron. How the Elves would be influenced is an open question, but I think they would 'fade' as we know this was possible for them... Indeed, I might argue that the effect of the Rings (save the Three) seems to be an enhancement of the effect Melkor's 'marring' had upon humans, suggesting that something similar might happen with the Elves. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8hoh2u$6mc$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <20000608123801.15983.00002661@nso-fk.aol.com> <3940DD30.E9263887@dur.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Lines: 15 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4029.2901 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 17:49:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.25.41 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 960659357 12.79.25.41 (Sat, 10 Jun 2000 17:49:17 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 17:49:17 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.20!wnmasters3!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21353 "Ian McDonald" wrote in message news:3940DD30.E9263887@dur.ac.uk... > However, the ring itself seems to have been invisible (or > unrecognisable), cf. TT, 'Mirror of Galadriel', when Frodo > realizes what he had taken to be a star on her finger to be one > of the Three... I'm not sure whether this was an inherent defensive feature of the Three to hide them or something done by the three bearers. That Sam saw a 'star' suggests to me that the Ring was there, but viewers were 'being encouraged' not to see or recognize it. A form of mental illusion or manipulation. ###### From: Ian McDonald Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:05:46 +0100 Organization: University of Durham, Durham, UK. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3944C40A.DC5AB8B5@dur.ac.uk> References: <8hoh2u$6mc$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <20000608123801.15983.00002661@nso-fk.aol.com> <3940DD30.E9263887@dur.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: edsb18.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,zh Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer1.nac.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:21474 Conrad Dunkerson wrote: > "Ian McDonald" wrote in message > news:3940DD30.E9263887@dur.ac.uk... > > > However, the ring itself seems to have been invisible (or > > unrecognisable), cf. TT, 'Mirror of Galadriel', when Frodo > > realizes what he had taken to be a star on her finger to be one > > of the Three... > > I'm not sure whether this was an inherent defensive feature of the > Three to hide them or something done by the three bearers. That > Sam saw a 'star' suggests to me that the Ring was there, but > viewers were 'being encouraged' not to see or recognize it. A form > of mental illusion or manipulation. It seems that the Three were deliberately kept hidden by their bearers, possibly an exercise in elf-magic. I can't quote directly as i don't own a copy of LoTR, but i do recall that when they gathered for Arwen's wedding the elf-rings were worn 'openly' for the first time, and the implication was that many who should have been in the know were surprised at their location... Galadriel claims that Sauron is forever tring to pierce her defences unsuccesfully, but she 'sees into His heart'. Though it should have been quite obvious that Imladris and Lothlorien were the location of at least two of the Three.... ###### Message-ID: <39694962.9C8A5D99@gte.net> From: Chris Hoelscher X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en]C-NE (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Seeing a Ringwearer References: <20000530145306.17424.00001538@nso-fg.aol.com> <393417B0.B1D03DF1@indigo.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 5 X-Trace: +5L7sVuGyf0bSNestrb6yhCoy3bcN79FXTlBTJS1//Y+FK+5aBQWhoB40dqcXCNqrg5RnlT1n5tW!Edd83qQ/80gejZWgprtygJEbdkX/dMaVMX8dT8BS5I3oyigXXouFdo2ORw== X-Complaints-To: abuse@gte.net X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 03:58:55 GMT Distribution: world Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 03:58:55 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!washdc3-snh1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!paloalto-snr1.gtei.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:23256 gee - i always thought that in giving up his "maia" powers in coming to Middle-Earth, Gandalf would have lost his ability to see a cloaked ring-wearer ..... Chris Hoelscher