Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Feanorians in the War of Wrath (was Re: Elrond & the Fall of Morgoth) References: <8gjo5h$s8e$3@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <20000525175613.19162.00000063@ng-cs1.news.gateway.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 63 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 959486302 128.135.12.7 (Sat, 27 May 2000 22:58:22 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 22:58:22 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 03:58:22 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19740 Quoth "Conrad Dunkerson" : > "Mnkohrz" wrote: > > Since Maglor fought in the War of Wrath that overthrew Morgoth > Actually, as discussed in another thread, it is entirely possible > that he did not. I find this textual situation to be quite interesting: there seems to be an inexplicable between Tolkien's most recent version of the most relevant passage and the version in the published _Silmarillion_. In _The Lost Road_, we read (in the "Quenta Silmarillion", "Conclusion", paragraph 15): Of the march of the host of Fionwe to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves of Valinor. But at the last Fionwe came up out of the West, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of his arms, for the sons of the Gods were young and fair and terrible, and the mountains rang beneath their feet. In this version, note, it is made quite clear that Fionwe summoned all of the remaining free inhabitants of Beleriand to aid in the battle. Thus, it is also clear that in this version, the quote "in his armies went none of those Elves..." referred only to the travel to Middle-earth. Nor were these meanings changed in Tolkien's final copy of this paragraph: _The War of the Jewels_ lists only the following significant changes to paragraph 15 (above): 'the Light-elves of Valinor' > 'the Light-elves in Valinor' 'the sons of the Gods were young and fair and terrible' > 'the host of the Gods were arrayed in forms of Valinor' Neither of these affects our questions in any way. However, in the published _Silmarillion_, we read: Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman. But at the last the might of Valinor came up out of the West, and the challenge of the trumpets of Eonwe filled the sky; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of their arms, for the host of the Valar were arrayed in forms young and fair and terrible, and the mountains rang beneath their feet. Now, _maybe_ Christopher had some reason for omitting the reference here to Eonwe's summons to the remaining free peoples of Beleriand, but he gives no hint of it in HoMe that I know of. Perhaps he simply believed that this version of the passage flowed better (though to be honest, I prefer the first in its original form, despite its inconsistency in name and detail with the later form of the mythology). At any rate, this is a case where I give precidence to the texts in HoMe over the published Silm. I believe that all of the remaining Noldor and Sindar in Beleriand who could probably heeded Eonwe's summons, and the sons of Feanor first of all. Steuard Jensen ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8gjo5h$s8e$3@oravannahka.helsinki.fi> <20000525175613.19162.00000063@ng-cs1.news.gateway.net> Subject: Re: Feanorians in the War of Wrath (was Re: Elrond & the Fall of Morgoth) Lines: 40 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 19:35:31 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.18.27.195 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 959644209 209.18.27.195 (Mon, 29 May 2000 19:50:09 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 19:50:09 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsmaster-01.atnet.at!atnet.at!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20264 Steuard Jensen wrote in message news:yP0Y4.340$x3.4921@uchinews... > > Now, _maybe_ Christopher had some reason for omitting the reference > here to Eonwe's summons to the remaining free peoples of Beleriand, > but he gives no hint of it in HoMe that I know of. Perhaps he simply > believed that this version of the passage flowed better (though to be > honest, I prefer the first in its original form, despite its > inconsistency in name and detail with the later form of the > mythology). At any rate, this is a case where I give precidence to > the texts in HoMe over the published Silm. I believe that all of the > remaining Noldor and Sindar in Beleriand who could probably heeded > Eonwe's summons, and the sons of Feanor first of all. You know, I've reread the conclusion of the Silm in _The Lost Road_ and in _The Shaping of Middle-earth_, and compared them to the version published in _The Silmarillion_, and I have come to the conclusion that I was wrong. "Of the march of the host of the Valar..." does refer to the sailing of Eonwe's host to Beleriand. Also according to the earlier versions the Exiled Noldor were not excluded from participating in the War. As to the reason Christopher Tolkien omitted Eonwe's summons of the Eldar and Edain to the War, I can venture a guess. In the "Tale of Years" (in _The War of the Jewels_) the entry for the year 540 in the earliest version cited says: The last free Elves and remnants of the Fathers of Men are driven out of Beleriand and take refuge in the Isle of Balar. From the way the text is presented it's difficult to determine if this idea was retained in the succeeding versions. If it was included in the last version then Eonwe's summons of the Eldar and Edain "from Hithlum unto the East" was unnecessary, there were none left in Beleriand to summons. Dave ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Feanorians in the War of Wrath (was Re: Elrond & the Fall of Morgoth) Lines: 114 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 May 2000 16:16:04 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000530121604.10241.00001245@nso-bh.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20299 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: >I find this textual situation to be quite interesting: there seems to >be an inexplicable between Tolkien's most recent version of the most >relevant passage and the version in the published _Silmarillion_. In >_The Lost Road_, we read (in the "Quenta Silmarillion", "Conclusion", >paragraph 15): > > Of the march of the host of Fionwe to the North little is said in > any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt > and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of > those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they > learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves of > Valinor. But at the last Fionwe came up out of the West, and the > challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him > all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East; and Beleriand was > ablaze with the glory of his arms, for the sons of the Gods were > young and fair and terrible, and the mountains rang beneath their > feet. > >Neither of these affects our questions in any way. However, in the >published _Silmarillion_, we read: > > Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth > little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves > who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the > histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these > things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in > Aman. But at the last the might of Valinor came up out of the > West, and the challenge of the trumpets of Eonwe filled the sky; > and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of their arms, for the host > of the Valar were arrayed in forms young and fair and terrible, and > the mountains rang beneath their feet. > >Now, _maybe_ Christopher had some reason for omitting the reference >here to Eonwe's summons to the remaining free peoples of Beleriand, >but he gives no hint of it in HoMe that I know of. Perhaps he simply >believed that this version of the passage flowed better (though to be >honest, I prefer the first in its original form, despite its >inconsistency in name and detail with the later form of the >mythology). At any rate, this is a case where I give precidence to >the texts in HoMe over the published Silm. I believe that all of the >remaining Noldor and Sindar in Beleriand who could probably heeded >Eonwe's summons, and the sons of Feanor first of all. I see where you're coming from but that interpretation doesn't strike me quite right. Let's look at the background political stiuation. After Nirnaeth and the Falls of Nargothrond, Doriath and Gondolin, the Feanoreans were scattered in southeast Ossiriand; The remnants of Doriath and Goldolin where at the mouth of Sirion; and the survivors of the Falas and Nargothrond were on Balar. At some point the Feanoreans attacked Elwing's people at the mouth of Sirion. The Annals of Beleriand gives us one version of what happened afterwards. It tells us that Maedhros took in the survivors, including Elrond. Maedhros and Maglor (the only surviving sons) led the remnant of their own people plus the survivors of Elwings people to Amon Ereb. Morgoth attacked that last outpost and the survivrs flad to Balar. Thus, in this conception, all the Elves were huddled on the Isle of Balar when Fionwe arrived. So what was left of the Free Peoples on the mainland? All the men of the House of Hador were dead. The women and children of the Houses of Hador and Beor were essentially slaves in Hithlum under the Easterlings. The Folk of Haleth were long destroyed. The Elves of the North were either thralls or "some few that eluded him and wandered wild in the woods" It is in this context that the description of Fionwe's arrival in Middle-earth must be read: > Of the march of the host of Fionwe to the North little is said in > any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt > and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of > those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they > learned long afterward from their kinsfolk, the Light-elves of > Valinor. But at the last Fionwe came up out of the West, and the > challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him > all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East; and Beleriand was > ablaze with the glory of his arms, for the sons of the Gods were > young and fair and terrible, and the mountains rang beneath their > feet. Fionwe obviously landed somewhere on the western coasts of Beleriand. The free Elves were nowhere nearby - they were all on Balar except for a few wandering in the wild. So when Fiowe marched North, none of these accompanied him. Thus when he marched North and trumpeted his challenge and "summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East" he was calling the hidden wandering Elves and the remnant Elf-friends living as slaves under the Easterlings in Hithlum and Dorthonian - those children had now grown to become men. These are probably the edain that fought for Fiowe in the battle. The term from "Hithlum unto the east," implies to me to be referring to the northern lands of middle earth not the middle and southern lands. Anyway, it stands to reason that some refugees on Balar may have slowly filtered back onto the mainland - Fionwe's vast army in the north providing cover for and basic safety in southern Beleriand. When the war was finally won, Fionwe marched through Beleriand summoning the Exiles and other refugees of Beleriand. It was this victorious army after the battle that Elrond probably refers to at the Council. If the Exiles and the Sindar were at the Battle, Fionwe wouldn't have to go marching around summoning them afterwards. Notably, Maedhros and Maglor were one of thse to whom the summons was addresses, but they "would not hearken". If they were with the army, they wouldn't need to be summoned and they wouldn't have had to sneak into Fionwe's camp in disguise. This is how I read these passages, FWIW Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Feanorians in the War of Wrath (was Re: Elrond & the Fall of Morgoth) Lines: 46 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 May 2000 22:58:05 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000530185805.10818.00005677@nso-fi.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20404 In article , "Dave Lind" writes: >Steuard Jensen wrote in message >news:yP0Y4.340$x3.4921@uchinews... >> >> Now, _maybe_ Christopher had some reason for omitting the reference >> here to Eonwe's summons to the remaining free peoples of Beleriand, >> but he gives no hint of it in HoMe that I know of. Perhaps he simply >> believed that this version of the passage flowed better (though to be >> honest, I prefer the first in its original form, despite its >> inconsistency in name and detail with the later form of the >> mythology). At any rate, this is a case where I give precidence to >> the texts in HoMe over the published Silm. I believe that all of the >> remaining Noldor and Sindar in Beleriand who could probably heeded >> Eonwe's summons, and the sons of Feanor first of all. > >You know, I've reread the conclusion of the Silm in _The Lost Road_ and in >_The Shaping of Middle-earth_, and compared them to the version published in >_The Silmarillion_, and I have come to the conclusion that I was wrong. "Of >the march of the host of the Valar..." does refer to the sailing of Eonwe's >host to Beleriand. Also according to the earlier versions the Exiled Noldor >were not excluded from participating in the War. > >As to the reason Christopher Tolkien omitted Eonwe's summons of the Eldar >and Edain to the War, I can venture a guess. In the "Tale of Years" (in _The >War of the Jewels_) the entry for the year 540 in the earliest version cited >says: > > The last free Elves and remnants of the Fathers > of Men are driven out of Beleriand and take refuge > in the Isle of Balar. > >From the way the text is presented it's difficult to determine if this idea >was retained in the succeeding versions. If it was included in the last >version then Eonwe's summons of the Eldar and Edain "from Hithlum unto the >East" was unnecessary, there were none left in Beleriand to summons. There are a bunch of cross-currents at work here. Let's back track and look at the "political" situation at the time Fionwe's force arrived in Middle-earth. We had Feanoreans in south Ossiriand and in the foothills of the Blue Mountains. We have the Havens which were just attacked by the Feanoreans. And we have Cirdan and Gil-galad with the regugees from the refugees from the Falas and Nargothrond and Arvernien. ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Feanorians in the War of Wrath (was Re: Elrond & the Fall of Morgoth) Lines: 37 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 May 2000 23:19:52 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000530191952.10818.00005679@nso-fi.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20406 In article , "Dave Lind" writes: >You know, I've reread the conclusion of the Silm in _The Lost Road_ and in >_The Shaping of Middle-earth_, and compared them to the version published in >_The Silmarillion_, and I have come to the conclusion that I was wrong. "Of >the march of the host of the Valar..." does refer to the sailing of Eonwe's >host to Beleriand. I disagree. Of course the march does not refer to the sailing. And it would be self-evident that the Exiles and the Sindar would not be part of the sailing so it must refer to a march north after landing. > Also according to the earlier versions the Exiled Noldor >were not excluded from participating in the War. > >As to the reason Christopher Tolkien omitted Eonwe's summons of the Eldar >and Edain to the War, I can venture a guess. In the "Tale of Years" (in _The >War of the Jewels_) the entry for the year 540 in the earliest version cited >says: > > The last free Elves and remnants of the Fathers > of Men are driven out of Beleriand and take refuge > in the Isle of Balar. > >From the way the text is presented it's difficult to determine if this idea >was retained in the succeeding versions. If it was included in the last >version then Eonwe's summons of the Eldar and Edain "from Hithlum unto the >East" was unnecessary, there were none left in Beleriand to summons. There were apparently enslaved members of the Elf-friends (i.e. the wives and children of those who died in Nirnaeth) who remained in Hithlum. By the time of the War of Wrath their children (or even their grandchildren) would have grown to adulthood. There were also apparently wandering hidden bands of Elves in the north. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Feanorians in the War of Wrath (was Re: Elrond & the Fall of Morgoth) Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 30 May 2000 23:21:57 GMT References: <20000530185805.10818.00005677@nso-fi.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000530192157.10818.00005680@nso-fi.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.netscum.dk.MISMATCH!CensurBot!news.tele.dk!News.Tele.DK!news.tele.dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20403 In article <20000530185805.10818.00005677@nso-fi.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) writes: >>From the way the text is presented it's difficult to determine if this idea >>was retained in the succeeding versions. If it was included in the last >>version then Eonwe's summons of the Eldar and Edain "from Hithlum unto the >>East" was unnecessary, there were none left in Beleriand to summons. > >There are a bunch of cross-currents at work here. Let's back track and look >at >the "political" situation at the time Fionwe's force arrived in Middle-earth. > >We had Feanoreans in south Ossiriand and in the foothills of the Blue >Mountains. We have the Havens which were just attacked by the Feanoreans. >And >we have Cirdan and Gil-galad with the regugees from the refugees from the >Falas >and Nargothrond and Arvernien. > Ignore the above. That was a draft I never finished. The intended ideas are present in another message however. ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000530191952.10818.00005679@nso-fi.aol.com> Subject: Re: Feanorians in the War of Wrath (was Re: Elrond & the Fall of Morgoth) Lines: 88 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 08:12:37 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.141.212.77 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 959774855 206.141.212.77 (Wed, 31 May 2000 08:07:35 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 08:07:35 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!cyclone.swbell.net!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!206.141.251.3!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20366 Russ wrote in message news:20000530191952.10818.00005679@nso-fi.aol.com... > In article , "Dave Lind" > writes: > > >You know, I've reread the conclusion of the Silm in _The Lost Road_ and in > >_The Shaping of Middle-earth_, and compared them to the version published in > >_The Silmarillion_, and I have come to the conclusion that I was wrong. "Of > >the march of the host of the Valar..." does refer to the sailing of Eonwe's > >host to Beleriand. > > I disagree. Of course the march does not refer to the sailing. Usually I would agree that *march* means *walking in line* with emphasis on walking, but we know that JRRT used language in strange ways. Since the Great Journey was sometimes referred to as the "Great March", part of which was also over water, I have no problem interpreting *march* as meaning a military expedition or journey, part of which may be over water. > And it would > be self-evident that the Exiles and the Sindar would not be part of the sailing > so it must refer to a march north after landing. The subject of the first sentence, "Of the march...", is not the Exiles, it is an explanation of why a long detailed account of the March is not included. In that sense it is not self-evident, an explanation is needed; the assembling, embarkation, sailing, and debarkation of the host of the West was not witnessed by the Elves of Middle-earth. Finally I would argue that the structure of the paragraph supports my interpretation. As I've already said the first sentence is an explanation of why the account is so short. The second sentence begins the actual bald account: "But at the last the might of the West came up out of the West", and Fionwe "summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East". > > > Also according to the earlier versions the Exiled Noldor > >were not excluded from participating in the War. > > > >As to the reason Christopher Tolkien omitted Eonwe's summons of the Eldar > >and Edain to the War, I can venture a guess. In the "Tale of Years" (in _The > >War of the Jewels_) the entry for the year 540 in the earliest version cited > >says: > > > > The last free Elves and remnants of the Fathers > > of Men are driven out of Beleriand and take refuge > > in the Isle of Balar. > > > >From the way the text is presented it's difficult to determine if this idea > >was retained in the succeeding versions. If it was included in the last > >version then Eonwe's summons of the Eldar and Edain "from Hithlum unto the > >East" was unnecessary, there were none left in Beleriand to summons. > > There were apparently enslaved members of the Elf-friends (i.e. the wives and > children of those who died in Nirnaeth) who remained in Hithlum. By the time > of the War of Wrath their children (or even their grandchildren) would have > grown to adulthood. There were also apparently wandering hidden bands of Elves > in the north. There is a problem with this part of the story in general. But at the last Fionwe came up out of the West, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East; Are we supposed to believe that the slaves just walked away from their masters to join Fionwe? Dave ###### From: "Durin VII" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000530191952.10818.00005679@nso-fi.aol.com> Subject: Re: Feanorians in the War of Wrath (was Re: Elrond & the Fall of Morgoth) Lines: 102 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 10:54:48 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.139.30.25 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 959788364 209.139.30.25 (Wed, 31 May 2000 15:52:44 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:52:44 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20434 Not that I disagree, but why the march "north", but came out of the "west"? Dave Lind wrote in message news:bg7Z4.159$bW4.63197@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net... > > > Russ wrote in message > news:20000530191952.10818.00005679@nso-fi.aol.com... > > In article , "Dave > Lind" > > writes: > > > > >You know, I've reread the conclusion of the Silm in _The Lost Road_ and > in > > >_The Shaping of Middle-earth_, and compared them to the version published > in > > >_The Silmarillion_, and I have come to the conclusion that I was wrong. > "Of > > >the march of the host of the Valar..." does refer to the sailing of > Eonwe's > > >host to Beleriand. > > > > I disagree. Of course the march does not refer to the sailing. > > Usually I would agree that *march* means *walking in line* with emphasis on > walking, but we know that JRRT used language in strange ways. Since the > Great Journey was sometimes referred to as the "Great March", part of which > was also over water, I have no problem interpreting *march* as meaning a > military expedition or journey, part of which may be over water. > > > And it would > > be self-evident that the Exiles and the Sindar would not be part of the > sailing > > so it must refer to a march north after landing. > > The subject of the first sentence, "Of the march...", is not the Exiles, it > is an explanation of why a long detailed account of the March is not > included. In that sense it is not self-evident, an explanation is needed; > the assembling, embarkation, sailing, and debarkation of the host of the > West was not witnessed by the Elves of Middle-earth. > > Finally I would argue that the structure of the paragraph supports my > interpretation. As I've already said the first sentence is an explanation of > why the account is so short. The second sentence begins the actual bald > account: "But at the last the might of the West came up out of the West", > and Fionwe "summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the > East". > > > > > > Also according to the earlier versions the Exiled Noldor > > >were not excluded from participating in the War. > > > > > >As to the reason Christopher Tolkien omitted Eonwe's summons of the Eldar > > >and Edain to the War, I can venture a guess. In the "Tale of Years" (in > _The > > >War of the Jewels_) the entry for the year 540 in the earliest version > cited > > >says: > > > > > > The last free Elves and remnants of the Fathers > > > of Men are driven out of Beleriand and take refuge > > > in the Isle of Balar. > > > > > >From the way the text is presented it's difficult to determine if this > idea > > >was retained in the succeeding versions. If it was included in the last > > >version then Eonwe's summons of the Eldar and Edain "from Hithlum unto > the > > >East" was unnecessary, there were none left in Beleriand to summons. > > > > There were apparently enslaved members of the Elf-friends (i.e. the wives > and > > children of those who died in Nirnaeth) who remained in Hithlum. By the > time > > of the War of Wrath their children (or even their grandchildren) would > have > > grown to adulthood. There were also apparently wandering hidden bands of > Elves > > in the north. > > There is a problem with this part of the story in general. > > But at the last Fionwe came up out of the West, and the > challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him > all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East; > > Are we supposed to believe that the slaves just walked away from their > masters to join Fionwe? > > Dave > > ###### From: Thomas.Koenig@cologne.de Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Feanorians in the War of Wrath (was Re: Elrond & the Fall of Morgoth) Date: 31 May 2000 22:45:43 +0200 Organization: A poorly-maintained Debian GNU/Linux InterNetNews site Lines: 9 Message-ID: <8h3tln$r8u$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> References: <20000530121604.10241.00001245@nso-bh.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de 959805943 10625 129.13.201.66 X-Complaints-To: usenet@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news.csl-gmbh.net!blackbush.xlink.net!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!news.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20528 Russ wrote: [scenario snipped] >When the war was finally >won, Fionwe marched through Beleriand summoning the Exiles and other refugees >of Beleriand. When did Beleriand sink, in your scenario? ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Feanorians in the War of Wrath (was Re: Elrond & the Fall of Morgoth) Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 31 May 2000 22:15:39 GMT References: <8h3tln$r8u$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000531181539.02224.00001778@nso-fj.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsxfer.eecs.umich.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20490 In article <8h3tln$r8u$1@mvmap66.ciw.uni-karlsruhe.de>, Thomas.Koenig@cologne.de writes: >Russ wrote: > >[scenario snipped] > >>When the war was finally >>won, Fionwe marched through Beleriand summoning the Exiles and other >refugees >>of Beleriand. > >When did Beleriand sink, in your scenario? My guess is it had to happen over time; otherwise everyone would have been drowned. The war lasted almost 50 years so it was probably a slow process. On the other hand, the fighting seemed pretty mundane until Morgoth unleashed his final assault and especially when the sons of the Valar (or Maia depending on the version) had to go in and root Morgoth out. Maybe most of the physical damage to Beleriand was done at the end? Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Feanorians in the War of Wrath (was Re: Elrond & the Fall of Morgoth) Lines: 93 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 01 Jun 2000 00:07:05 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000531200705.05836.00006394@nso-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20485 In article , "Dave Lind" writes: >> I disagree. Of course the march does not refer to the sailing. > >Usually I would agree that *march* means *walking in line* with emphasis on >walking, but we know that JRRT used language in strange ways. Since the >Great Journey was sometimes referred to as the "Great March", part of which >was also over water, I have no problem interpreting *march* as meaning a >military expedition or journey, part of which may be over water. Those were *rivers* they crossed during the Great Journey. Not vast oceans. IIRC, they didn't know how to build boats until Osse taught them. >> And it would >> be self-evident that the Exiles and the Sindar would not be part of the >sailing >> so it must refer to a march north after landing. > >The subject of the first sentence, "Of the march...", is not the Exiles, it >is an explanation of why a long detailed account of the March is not >included. In that sense it is not self-evident, an explanation is needed; >the assembling, embarkation, sailing, and debarkation of the host of the >West was not witnessed by the Elves of Middle-earth. Again, that is self evident. No one expected the cavalry to come from Valinor - not the Exiles, not Morgoth. The refugees on Balar might not have even known of their arrival until after Fiowe marched north and trumpted his challenge and summons. >Finally I would argue that the structure of the paragraph supports my >interpretation. As I've already said the first sentence is an explanation of >why the account is so short. The second sentence begins the actual bald >account: "But at the last the might of the West came up out of the West", >and Fionwe "summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the >East". Specifying Hithlum implies to me a northern focus of the sentence. We are told that there were still edain and wandering hidden elves in the North. >> There were apparently enslaved members of the Elf-friends (i.e. the wives >and >> children of those who died in Nirnaeth) who remained in Hithlum. By the >time >> of the War of Wrath their children (or even their grandchildren) would >have >> grown to adulthood. There were also apparently wandering hidden bands of >Elves >> in the north. > >There is a problem with this part of the story in general. I agree. This is not clear cut. > But at the last Fionwe came up out of the West, and the > challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; and he summoned unto him > all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East; > >Are we supposed to believe that the slaves just walked away from their >masters to join Fionwe? From the glimpses we see in the Narn i hin Hurin and in the Wanderings of Hurn, the edain living under the Easterlings were not "slaves" in the iron shackle sense. They kept their own homes and had some amount of autonomy. Other writings attest that some of these edain had made their way down to Earendil's community before the third kinslaying so they were able at times to just walk away. So it stands to reason that the remaining could have listened to Fionwe's summons. Remember at that point the Easterlings were probably quite a bit worried. The appearance of Earendil's Star gave even Morgoth pause. They were surely aware of the great army that had landed and marched north. Reports of it had to come back from Morgoth's companies ranging through Beleriand - indeed earlier texts talk of pitched battles. The last things the Easterlings were worried about would be their servant population up and leaving. Indeed, most of the Easterling men were probably mobilized elsewhere with Morgoth's armies and not in Hithlum. There were also remnants of Haladin in Brethil. The texts say that the graves of Turin, Nienor and Morwen were tended by them until the breaking of Beleriand. On the Elven side, we are told that wandering hidden companies of Elves remained in Hithlum. If Haladin were able to survive in Brethil, some Sindar probably survived hidden in Doriath. And the same would hold for Laiquendi in northern Ossiriand and near the Ered Luin. Also, Morgoth allowed Elves whose spirits were borken and whose wills were tied with him to walk "free". In short, there were Elves and Men in the North who could have responded to the summons of Fionwe after the march north but before the Great Battle. Russ ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000530191952.10818.00005679@nso-fi.aol.com> Subject: Re: Feanorians in the War of Wrath (was Re: Elrond & the Fall of Morgoth) Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 21:18:00 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.141.213.63 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 959821980 206.141.213.63 (Wed, 31 May 2000 21:13:00 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 21:13:00 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!206.141.251.3!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20449 Durin VII wrote in message news:gzaZ4.2639$HD6.47215@iad-read.news.verio.net... > Not that I disagree, but why the march "north", but came out of the "west"? Because the gap in the Pelori where the Bay of Eldamar was located was near the "girdle of Arda", i.e. near the equator. Dave ###### From: "Durin VII" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000530191952.10818.00005679@nso-fi.aol.com> Subject: Re: Feanorians in the War of Wrath (was Re: Elrond & the Fall of Morgoth) Lines: 22 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 15:30:02 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.139.30.25 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 959889237 209.139.30.25 (Thu, 01 Jun 2000 19:53:57 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 19:53:57 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news.netscum.dk.MISMATCH!CensurBot!news.tele.dk!News.Tele.DK!news.tele.dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20678 I'm not douting the north-eastern travel, but why would you refer to a travel as north then say you came from the east. A bit contradictory. Dave Lind wrote in message news:wMiZ4.287$bW4.77402@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net... > > > Durin VII wrote in message > news:gzaZ4.2639$HD6.47215@iad-read.news.verio.net... > > Not that I disagree, but why the march "north", but came out of the > "west"? > > Because the gap in the Pelori where the Bay of Eldamar was located was near > the "girdle of Arda", i.e. near the equator. > > Dave > > > ###### X-Originating-Host: 199.179.188.196 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Feanorians in the War of Wrath (was Re: Elrond & the Fall of Morgoth) Lines: 16 From: Dave Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <04c8e6d0.bc11ca71@usw-ex0101-008.remarq.com> References: <20000530191952.10818.00005679@nso-fi.aol.com> Bytes: 576 X-Wren-Trace: eNH03N3Eg8mClcTP0Z2FgePDzNHG3IXC19WQ3N3RiMCHjt+BiMiKjoWIm4WGxw== Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 03:47:44 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.8 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon4 959942964 10.0.2.8 (Fri, 02 Jun 2000 03:49:24 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 03:49:24 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newsfeed.icl.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!novia!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon4.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20651 In article , "Durin VII" wrote: >I'm not douting the north-eastern travel, but why would you refer to a >travel as north then say you came from the east. A bit contradictory. Where did I say anybody came from the east? They sailed north- east, landed somewhere in Beleriand and then attacked Morgoth from the south (or south-west) Dave * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### X-Originating-Host: 199.179.188.196 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Feanorians in the War of Wrath (was Re: Elrond & the Fall of Morgoth) Lines: 15 From: Dave Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <231fb0c0.bd571c8a@usw-ex0101-008.remarq.com> References: <20000531200705.05836.00006394@nso-ch.aol.com> Bytes: 484 X-Wren-Trace: ePbT+/rjpO6lsuPo9rqipsTk6/bh+6Ll8PK3+/r2r+egqfimr++tqaKvvKKh4A== Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 03:52:36 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.8 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon3 959943880 10.0.2.8 (Fri, 02 Jun 2000 04:04:40 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 04:04:40 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!feeder.via.net!news.he.net!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon3.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20650 In article <20000531200705.05836.00006394@nso-ch.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > >Those were *rivers* they crossed during the Great Journey. Not vast oceans. I guess Belegaer is an awefully wide river in your view. :-) Dave (<---- whose ISP is all f*cked up and has to resort to Remarq to make my remarqs * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Feanorians in the War of Wrath (was Re: Elrond & the Fall of Morgoth) Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 Jun 2000 11:59:50 GMT References: <231fb0c0.bd571c8a@usw-ex0101-008.remarq.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000602075950.19467.00000745@nso-md.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20622 In article <231fb0c0.bd571c8a@usw-ex0101-008.remarq.com>, Dave writes: >> >>Those were *rivers* they crossed during the Great Journey. Not >vast oceans. > >I guess Belegaer is an awefully wide river in your view. :-) > They didn't cross Belegaer on boats. They crossed on an island that Ulmo pulled to Aman. Elves didn't learn shipbuilding until after the Great Journey. They were taught that by Osse. Russ ###### From: "Durin VII" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000530191952.10818.00005679@nso-fi.aol.com> <04c8e6d0.bc11ca71@usw-ex0101-008.remarq.com> Subject: Re: Feanorians in the War of Wrath (was Re: Elrond & the Fall of Morgoth) Lines: 27 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:40:40 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.139.30.25 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 959954849 209.139.30.25 (Fri, 02 Jun 2000 14:07:29 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 14:07:29 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20655 Not you, Tolkien. As far as I recall, come from Valinor (any part) was coming from the west, but the march is specifically 'north'. I actually would prefer the remaining son's and Elrond to have fought in the last battle, but I find this part of the language against it. Dave wrote in message news:04c8e6d0.bc11ca71@usw-ex0101-008.remarq.com... > In article read.news.verio.net>, "Durin VII" wrote: > >I'm not douting the north-eastern travel, but why would you > refer to a > >travel as north then say you came from the east. A bit > contradictory. > > Where did I say anybody came from the east? They sailed north- > east, landed somewhere in Beleriand and then attacked Morgoth > from the south (or south-west) > > Dave > > > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! > ###### From: raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Feanorians in the War of Wrath (was Re: Elrond & the Fall of Morgoth) References: <20000530191952.10818.00005679@nso-fi.aol.com> Message-ID: User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 12 Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 23:51:51 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.62.185.20 X-Complaints-To: abuse@asiaonline.net X-Trace: news.interact.net.au 959989911 203.62.185.20 (Sat, 03 Jun 2000 09:51:51 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 09:51:51 EST Organization: an Asia Online client - http://www.asiaonline.net/ X-Received-Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 09:51:51 EST (news.interact.net.au) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.syd.connect.com.au!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!news.interact.net.au!raka Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20759 On 30 May 2000 23:19:52 GMT, Russ wrote: >In article , "Dave Lind" > writes: > >I disagree. Of course the march does not refer to the sailing. And it would >be self-evident that the Exiles and the Sindar would not be part of the sailing >so it must refer to a march north after landing. > There was mention of the Teleri lending ships, though they would not fight themselves. In fact I think it says their sailors stayed on board and did not set foot on ME. ###### From: dave_lind@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Feanorians in the War of Wrath (was Re: Elrond & the Fall of Morgoth) Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 20:37:50 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <8hbqat$4v$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <231fb0c0.bd571c8a@usw-ex0101-008.remarq.com> <20000602075950.19467.00000745@nso-md.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.18.31.222 X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Jun 03 20:37:50 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows 98; AIT) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x68.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 209.18.31.222 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdave_lind Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!208.184.7.66!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20779 In article <20000602075950.19467.00000745@nso-md.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > In article <231fb0c0.bd571c8a@usw-ex0101-008.remarq.com>, Dave > writes: > > >> > >>Those were *rivers* they crossed during the Great Journey. Not > >vast oceans. > > > >I guess Belegaer is an awefully wide river in your view. :-) > > > > They didn't cross Belegaer on boats. They crossed on an island that Ulmo pulled > to Aman. > > Elves didn't learn shipbuilding until after the Great Journey. They were > taught that by Osse. When the Elves learned shipbuilding is irrelavent. My point was that the term "march" was used as the equavelant of "journey" and a part of that journey/march was over the Great Sea, just as part of the march of the host of the West into the North included traversing Belegaer. Dave Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <231fb0c0.bd571c8a@usw-ex0101-008.remarq.com> <20000602075950.19467.00000745@nso-md.aol.com> Subject: Re: Feanorians in the War of Wrath (was Re: Elrond & the Fall of Morgoth) Lines: 12 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4029.2901 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 06:50:46 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.65.1.205 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 960187846 12.65.1.205 (Mon, 05 Jun 2000 06:50:46 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 06:50:46 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.20!wnmasters3!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20909 "Russ" wrote in message news:20000602075950.19467.00000745@nso-md.aol.com... > Elves didn't learn shipbuilding until after the Great Journey. > They were taught that by Osse. According to one passage Cirdan sailed on the great inland sea, of which Rhun was apparently a Third Age remnant, before the Elves ever reached the western ocean. ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Feanorians in the War of Wrath (was Re: Elrond & the Fall of Morgoth) Lines: 14 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 05 Jun 2000 12:14:47 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000605081447.19467.00001638@nso-md.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20938 In article , "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: >> Elves didn't learn shipbuilding until after the Great Journey. >> They were taught that by Osse. > >According to one passage Cirdan sailed on the great inland sea, of >which Rhun was apparently a Third Age remnant, before the Elves >ever reached the western ocean. > Must have been an earlier text. Russ ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000605081447.19467.00001638@nso-md.aol.com> Subject: Re: Feanorians in the War of Wrath (was Re: Elrond & the Fall of Morgoth) Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4029.2901 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4029.2901 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 16:51:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.65.1.141 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 960223883 12.65.1.141 (Mon, 05 Jun 2000 16:51:23 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 16:51:23 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters3!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20917 "Russ" wrote in message news:20000605081447.19467.00001638@nso-md.aol.com... > "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: >> According to one passage Cirdan sailed on the great inland sea, >> of which Rhun was apparently a Third Age remnant, before the >> Elves ever reached the western ocean. > Must have been an earlier text. Piffle. Half the citations in these discussions have been from 'earlier texts'. However, as it happens my recollection is that this was in fact a very LATE text - PoME, Last Writings is where I'd go looking for it if my books were with me. There is a section specifically on Cirdan and (I believe) one of the notes references the material above. ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Feanorians in the War of Wrath (was Re: Elrond & the Fall of Morgoth) Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 05 Jun 2000 20:19:15 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000605161915.06864.00002390@nso-fp.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20937 In article , "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: >>> According to one passage Cirdan sailed on the great inland sea, >>> of which Rhun was apparently a Third Age remnant, before the >>> Elves ever reached the western ocean. > >> Must have been an earlier text. > >Piffle. Half the citations in these discussions have been from >'earlier texts'. Depends on the topic. When we're talking about the Great Journey as we are now, that material was rewritten by Tolkien post-LOTR so earlier writings are not really good evidence. On the other hand, if we're talking about the War of Wrath which is what this thread started about all we have to go on are earlier writings (except for the passages in Athrabeth and maybe some others). However, as it happens my recollection is that >this was in fact a very LATE text - PoME, Last Writings is where >I'd go looking for it if my books were with me. There is a section >specifically on Cirdan and (I believe) one of the notes references >the material above. > I'll go look at it. PoME does include some writings that predate some of the later Silmarillion texts in WotJ and PoME. I don't know if the Cirdan stuff from there falls in that category. I'm not even sure whether the Elves first built boats at Cuivienen or on the western shores of Beleriand actually bears on anything. Russ