From: smokybarnable@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Sam as a spy Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 12:14:36 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 40 Message-ID: <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.120.155.76 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed May 17 12:14:36 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x39.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 212.120.155.76 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsmokybarnable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19286 Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but I get the feeling I'm missing something obvious here. In A Conspiracy Unmasked, Merry says, referring to Sam's role as an information gatherer for the others, "Here's our collector of information! And he collected a lot, I can tell you, before he was finally caught. After which, I may say, he seemed to regard himself as on parole, and dried up." This doesn't make sense to me. Up until the arrival of Gandalf in Hobbiton for the final time in April, very little is known of the ring. Gandalf advises Frodo after Bilbo's departure for Rivendell "I should not make use of it, if I were you. But keep it secret, and keep it safe!" During the following years Gandalf visits relatively frequently but confines his interest to "small news about Frodo's health and doings." Then he disappears for nine years only to return on the evening of April 13th "as Sam was walking home and the twilight was fading." The following morning Frodo begins the major discussion concerning the ring "Last night you began to tell me strange things about my ring, Gandalf," Sam is outside gardening at this point. Gandalf tells Frodo what he knows about the story of the ring, eventually Frodo realises that he must leave The Shire on the quest to Mount Doom. At this point, Sam is caught listening outside the window. My question is. What information could Sam possibly have imparted to Pippin, Merry and Freddy before getting caught? They knew that Frodo had to leave, "You have obviously been planning to go and saying farewell to all your haunts this year since April." This however does not account for their knowledge of the nature of the ring, which could not have come from Sam as he was caught on his first attempt at eavesdropping. I am sure that his promise to Frodo and Gandalf would have kept his mouth shut. Any ideas? Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Anthony Rebello Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam as a spy Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 13:56:25 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 33 Message-ID: <8fu8e0$42i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 165.252.37.7 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed May 17 13:56:25 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 98; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x28.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 165.252.37.7 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDarebello Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newscore.gigabell.net!news-x.support.nl!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19278 In article <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, smokybarnable@my-deja.com wrote: > > > My question is. What information could Sam possibly have imparted to > Pippin, Merry and Freddy before getting caught? They knew that Frodo > had to leave, "You have obviously been planning to go and saying > farewell to all your haunts this year since April." This however does > not account for their knowledge of the nature of the ring, which could > not have come from Sam as he was caught on his first attempt at > eavesdropping. I am sure that his promise to Frodo and Gandalf would > have kept his mouth shut. > > Any ideas? > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. > I disagree. I think that Sam dried up after imparting the information he overheard the day he was caught. By drying up it is meant that he stopped eavesdropping. It is clear from the conversation at Crickhollow that the conspiracy knew at least some of the details of Frodo and Gandalf's conversation the day Sam was caught. I think the information Sam was gathering prior to his being caught was chiefly details about Frodo's doings, which the conspiracy used to guess if he was planning to depart the Shire. IIRC the conspiracy was formed out of fear that Frodo would give his friends the slip and leave without them, not to specifically unravel the mystery of Bilbo's ring. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: smokybarnable@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam as a spy Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 14:44:26 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 56 Message-ID: <8fub83$7jp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8fu8e0$42i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.120.155.76 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed May 17 14:44:26 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x29.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 212.120.155.76 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsmokybarnable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19282 In article <8fu8e0$42i$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Anthony Rebello wrote: > In article <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > smokybarnable@my-deja.com wrote: > > > > > > > My question is. What information could Sam possibly have imparted to > > Pippin, Merry and Freddy before getting caught? They knew that Frodo > > had to leave, "You have obviously been planning to go and saying > > farewell to all your haunts this year since April." This however does > > not account for their knowledge of the nature of the ring, which could > > not have come from Sam as he was caught on his first attempt at > > eavesdropping. I am sure that his promise to Frodo and Gandalf would > > have kept his mouth shut. > > > > Any ideas? > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > > I disagree. I think that Sam dried up after imparting the > information he overheard the day he was caught. By drying up it is > meant that he stopped eavesdropping. It is clear from the conversation > at Crickhollow that the conspiracy knew at least some of the details of > Frodo and Gandalf's conversation the day Sam was caught. No, Sam stopped eavesdropping as soon as Gandalf caught him on his first attempt, and I don't buy that Sam told the others. "I shall have to go. But" - and here he looked hard at Sam - "if you really care about me you will keep that *dead* secret. See? If you don't then I hope Gandalf will turn you into a spotted toad and fill the garden full of grass snakes." Sam fell on his knees trembling. > I think the information Sam was gathering prior to his being caught > was chiefly details about Frodo's doings, which the conspiracy used to > guess if he was planning to depart the Shire. IIRC the conspiracy was > formed out of fear that Frodo would give his friends the slip and leave > without them, not to specifically unravel the mystery of Bilbo's ring. > But Frodo had given no previous cause for concern, as he knew nothing of the ring until Gandalf told him, Frodo had no plans to leave The Shire before the events of that April morning. There was nothing to spy on. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam as a spy Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 20:07:10 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 63 Message-ID: <8fujl1$qpd$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8fu8e0$42i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8fub83$7jp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-a043.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 958583265 27437 212.205.240.43 (17 May 2000 17:07:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 May 2000 17:07:45 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19298 wrote in message news:8fub83$7jp$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <8fu8e0$42i$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > Anthony Rebello wrote: > > In article <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > > smokybarnable@my-deja.com wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > My question is. What information could Sam possibly have imparted to > > > Pippin, Merry and Freddy before getting caught? They knew that Frodo > > > had to leave, "You have obviously been planning to go and saying > > > farewell to all your haunts this year since April." This however > does > > > not account for their knowledge of the nature of the ring, which > could > > > not have come from Sam as he was caught on his first attempt at > > > eavesdropping. I am sure that his promise to Frodo and Gandalf would > > > have kept his mouth shut. > > > > > > Any ideas? > > > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > > Before you buy. > > > > > I disagree. I think that Sam dried up after imparting the > > information he overheard the day he was caught. By drying up it is > > meant that he stopped eavesdropping. It is clear from the > conversation > > at Crickhollow that the conspiracy knew at least some of the details > of > > Frodo and Gandalf's conversation the day Sam was caught. > > No, Sam stopped eavesdropping as soon as Gandalf caught him on his > first attempt, and I don't buy that Sam told the others. > > "I shall have to go. But" - and here he looked hard at Sam - "if you > really care about me you will keep that *dead* secret. See? If you > don't then I hope Gandalf will turn you into a spotted toad and fill > the garden full of grass snakes." > > Sam fell on his knees trembling. > > > I think the information Sam was gathering prior to his being caught > > was chiefly details about Frodo's doings, which the conspiracy used to > > guess if he was planning to depart the Shire. IIRC the conspiracy was > > formed out of fear that Frodo would give his friends the slip and > leave > > without them, not to specifically unravel the mystery of Bilbo's ring. > > > But Frodo had given no previous cause for concern, as he knew nothing > of the ring until Gandalf told him, Frodo had no plans to leave The > Shire before the events of that April morning. There was nothing to spy > on. He knew nothing of the ring? He certainly knew that the ring had the power to make people invisible, that it came from the Misty Mountains and a creature named Gollum... Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Andrew Wells" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam as a spy Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 18:16:29 +0100 Organization: Wellinghall Lines: 12 Message-ID: <8fuk4f$cfq3$1@fu-berlin.de> References: <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 61.3d-01.quay.dial.plus.net.uk (212.159.124.61) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 958583760 409411 212.159.124.61 (16 [23037]) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!psinet-eu-nl!psiuk-p4!uknet!bignews.mediaways.net!news.netcologne.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!61.3d-01.quay.dial.plus.net.UK!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19280 I posted this very query a few months ago, but got no response (possibly my ISP's fault - at the time, many of my postings weren't been seen by others). Andrew -- Andrew Wells Replace nospam with my first name to reach me ###### From: Eruadan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam as a spy Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 19:30:53 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 50 Message-ID: <8fus1e$rpu$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8fu8e0$42i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.239.8.77 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed May 17 19:30:53 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (WinNT; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x26.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 129.239.8.77 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDeruadan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.ision.net!ision!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19333 In article <8fu8e0$42i$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Anthony Rebello wrote: > I disagree. I think that Sam dried up after imparting the > information he overheard the day he was caught. By drying up it is > meant that he stopped eavesdropping. It is clear from the conversation > at Crickhollow that the conspiracy knew at least some of the details of > Frodo and Gandalf's conversation the day Sam was caught. But, during that conversation, it is also revealed that Merry and Pippen knew of Bilbo and his Ring long ago. They also couldn't have missed that Frodo loved Bilbo, and after he left would wish to eventually follow him. Frodo may not have _thought_ he was acting strange, but he did _something_ to attract their attention. And not all that recently. > I think the information Sam was gathering prior to his being caught > was chiefly details about Frodo's doings, which the conspiracy used to > guess if he was planning to depart the Shire. IIRC the conspiracy was > formed out of fear that Frodo would give his friends the slip and leave > without them, not to specifically unravel the mystery of Bilbo's ring. The information that Sam passed on to M&P would probably have been nothing more than a daily account of what "Mr. Frodo" had going thru, and whom he had spoken with. Please realize, you can get quite a bit of information about a person by going thru his trash. Having said that, I will say that there was ample opportunity to determine that Frodo was going to have to do _something_, and likely it would involve making drastic changes in the populace of Bag End. Eruadan -- <*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*> Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, because to them you are small, insignificant, and taste good with ketchup Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: warrenchang@newyorkcityc.om (Warren Chang) Subject: Re: Sam as a spy Organization: Hacque, Leeut and Byrne, LLP References: <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.01 Lines: 110 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 04:52:23 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.29.146.164 X-Complaints-To: abuse@rr.com X-Trace: typhoon.nyc.rr.com 958625543 24.29.146.164 (Thu, 18 May 2000 00:52:23 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 00:52:23 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!chnws02.mediaone.net!cyclone.rdc-nyc.rr.com!news.nyc.rr.com!news.rr.com!typhoon.nyc.rr.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19358 smokybarnable@my-deja.com wrote: >Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but I get the feeling >I'm missing something obvious here. > >In A Conspiracy Unmasked, Merry says, referring to Sam's role as an >information gatherer for the others, "Here's our collector of >information! And he collected a lot, I can tell you, before he was >finally caught. After which, I may say, he seemed to regard himself >as on parole, and dried up." > >This doesn't make sense to me. [...] Smoky: Your spotting of the logical inconsistencies in the story and distrust of Sam is highly perceptive, but only a scratch on the surface of things. You see, in addition to being gluttonous sneaks, Hobbits are notorious revisionists. Let us not forget that the so-called "Red Book of Westmarch" is supposedly written by Bilbo and Frodo Baggins, but was "entrusted" to Sam along with the rest of the family fortune after the two Bagginses "went to the Grey Havens" with Sam as the lone witness. Make no mistake: in reality, Merry and Pippin did not come riding up at the last minute. The additional witnesses were written in long after the fact. The true hero in the story of the Destruction of the Ring is Smeagol, cruelly dubbed "Gollum" in the Red Book. The whole concept of destroying the Ring was a silly one to begin with, originating with Gandalf the Grey Fool (see http://www.speakeasy.org/~ohh/gandolt.htm for the full story there); but even operating within that set of parameters, Frodo, Merry and Pippin were well-intentioned folk whose primary fault was to believe everything Gandalf said, yet were very nearly destroyed (along with everything else) by the trusted but envious manservant Samwise. The Red Book claims that the Ringwraiths had finally learned of the Ring's location in the Shire from the capturing and interrogation of Smeagol, and had just got there right when the hobbits were leaving for Rivendell. But doesn't the extremely close timing seem suspiciously coincidental? I mean, Sauron was supposed to have caught "Gollum" years earlier. What took them so long to locate the Shire? The truth is that Sam, who had been working for Frodo for quite low pay for pretty much his whole life, had sold out to Sauron not much earlier. He had been going along with Merry and Pippin's plan to find out the reason for Frodo's sudden travel plans, but once he learned that it had to do with Mordor and the Great Ring, his mind darted back to the propaganda pamphlet that Bill Ferny from Bree had given him a while back. "WORKERS OF THE WORLD, UNITE!" was emblazoned in large bold letters on the top, with a large logo of a lidless eye as a watermark. It was very exciting and spoke to his deep-seated resentment of his socio-economic lot. Born to be a tiller of the rich man's soil as his father was before him... never received a formal education... By the time he had finished reading the pamphlet, he was ready to bolt for Mordor S.S.R. and to hell with Frodo's shrubbery. But something told him to wait. When he heard about the Ring, he immediately stopped talking to Merry and Pippin, but sent word to Bill Ferny and appointed himself as an inside saboteur to the job. He took care to tuck the pamphlet in his jacket lining, as there was a Mordor "blood chit" pass written on the back guaranteeing safety and good treatment to the bearer, along with a map of various routes to key Mordor posts: Minas Morgul, the Tower with the Two Watchers, etc. Bombadil foiled his attempt to have the Ring captured at the Barrows; then, Aragorn foiled his attempt to have the Ring seized in Bree. He did manage to summon the Balrog in Moria, but was stymied by Frodo's mithril coat ("health insurance is only for the rich"). He managed to separate the Nine Walkers from Frodo after they left Lothlorien, and would have marched Frodo right up Minas Morgul and turned him over to the Witch King... but Smeagol inserted himself into the picture. It is undeniable that Smeagol had been enslaved by desire for the Ring, and had come out from under the mountain in search of it. However, he was not caught and interrogated by Sauron; how could he possibly have survived that? No, he had been found by Saruman the White, who put through a rigorous twelve-step program to free him of his torment. Smeagol crossed paths with Frodo and Sam by purest chance, but it was a good thing he did. The long years with the Ring had taught him to see malicious plotting by a malcontent when he saw it, and it was all over Sam's face. When he found that he could not convince Frodo to hand the Ring over to him (to bring to Saruman), he felt that the only thing left for him to do was to follow them and make sure Sam didn't get a chance to give the Ring away. In reality, it was Smeagol who picked up Sting and defied Shelob (whom he had known nothing about); Smeagol who forced Sam to give the Ring back to Frodo after breaking them out of the Tower; and Smeagol who ultimately had to beat down Sam to wrest control of the Ring from Frodo and leap into Orodruin's fiery depths, nobly giving himself up to save the world. The cunning Sam managed to conceal his true motives the entire time. However, within a few years of returning to the Shire, he was able to engineer Frodo's disappearance, producing genuine-seeming legal documents showing that he was now the heir to the Baggins fortune. Merry and Pippin were a little suspicious, but Sam managed to paint such a convincing picture of how close he had been to Frodo and glorified his "dear master" so much to everybody that nobody gave it much of a closer look. As they say: the TRUTH is OUT THERE! ------ SYSTEM NOTE: /dev/earth is 95% full. Please delete anyone you can. ###### From: smokybarnable@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam as a spy Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:19:28 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 31 Message-ID: <8g0cin$hsg$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8fu8e0$42i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8fub83$7jp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8fujl1$qpd$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.120.155.76 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu May 18 09:19:28 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x21.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 212.120.155.76 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsmokybarnable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!abq.news.ans.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19329 In article <8fujl1$qpd$1@newssrv.otenet.gr>, "Aris Katsaris" wrote: > He knew nothing of the ring? He certainly knew that the ring had the power > to make people invisible, that it came from the Misty Mountains and a > creature named Gollum... > > Aris Katsaris > Sam may well have known whatever Bilbo had imparted to the rest of the hobbits of The Shire in terms of reminiscences, songs, "poetry" etc, but this was common knowledge, available to the whole community thus there was no need for him to spy. The true story of the ring was only told to Gandalf and Frodo. In addition, it seems as though Bilbo had tried to keep the ring a secret so it is quite probable that he ommitted any ring related details from his retelling of his adventure. Pippin, however, had some suspicion. He had snuck a peek at Bilbo's memoirs and had witnessed Bilbo using the ring once but that was at a distance and all Pippin saw was a flash of gold in Bilbo's hand before he disappeared. It still does not explain why Sam was spying on Frodo. Smoky. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: smokybarnable@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam as a spy Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:42:22 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 117 Message-ID: <8g0dts$j76$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.120.155.76 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu May 18 09:42:22 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x32.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 212.120.155.76 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsmokybarnable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!oleane.net!oleane!newsfeed.icl.net!news-hub.cableinet.net!triton.skycache.com!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19324 In article , warrenchang@newyorkcityc.om (Warren Chang) wrote: > > Your spotting of the logical inconsistencies in the story and distrust > of Sam is highly perceptive, but only a scratch on the surface of > things. You see, in addition to being gluttonous sneaks, Hobbits are > notorious revisionists. Let us not forget that the so-called "Red > Book of Westmarch" is supposedly written by Bilbo and Frodo Baggins, > but was "entrusted" to Sam along with the rest of the family fortune > after the two Bagginses "went to the Grey Havens" with Sam as the lone > witness. Make no mistake: in reality, Merry and Pippin did not come > riding up at the last minute. The additional witnesses were written > in long after the fact. > > The true hero in the story of the Destruction of the Ring is Smeagol, > cruelly dubbed "Gollum" in the Red Book. The whole concept of > destroying the Ring was a silly one to begin with, originating with > Gandalf the Grey Fool (see http://www.speakeasy.org/~ohh/gandolt.htm > for the full story there); but even operating within that set of > parameters, Frodo, Merry and Pippin were well-intentioned folk whose > primary fault was to believe everything Gandalf said, yet were very > nearly destroyed (along with everything else) by the trusted but > envious manservant Samwise. > > The Red Book claims that the Ringwraiths had finally learned of the > Ring's location in the Shire from the capturing and interrogation of > Smeagol, and had just got there right when the hobbits were leaving > for Rivendell. But doesn't the extremely close timing seem > suspiciously coincidental? I mean, Sauron was supposed to have caught > "Gollum" years earlier. What took them so long to locate the Shire? > > The truth is that Sam, who had been working for Frodo for quite low > pay for pretty much his whole life, had sold out to Sauron not much > earlier. He had been going along with Merry and Pippin's plan to find > out the reason for Frodo's sudden travel plans, but once he learned > that it had to do with Mordor and the Great Ring, his mind darted back > to the propaganda pamphlet that Bill Ferny from Bree had given him a > while back. > > "WORKERS OF THE WORLD, UNITE!" was emblazoned in large bold letters > on the top, with a large logo of a lidless eye as a watermark. It was > very exciting and spoke to his deep-seated resentment of his > socio-economic lot. Born to be a tiller of the rich man's soil as his > father was before him... never received a formal education... By the > time he had finished reading the pamphlet, he was ready to bolt for > Mordor S.S.R. and to hell with Frodo's shrubbery. But something > told him to wait. > > When he heard about the Ring, he immediately stopped talking to Merry > and Pippin, but sent word to Bill Ferny and appointed himself as an > inside saboteur to the job. He took care to tuck the pamphlet in his > jacket lining, as there was a Mordor "blood chit" pass written on the > back guaranteeing safety and good treatment to the bearer, along with > a map of various routes to key Mordor posts: Minas Morgul, the Tower > with the Two Watchers, etc. > > Bombadil foiled his attempt to have the Ring captured at the Barrows; > then, Aragorn foiled his attempt to have the Ring seized in Bree. He > did manage to summon the Balrog in Moria, but was stymied by Frodo's > mithril coat ("health insurance is only for the rich"). He managed to > separate the Nine Walkers from Frodo after they left Lothlorien, and > would have marched Frodo right up Minas Morgul and turned him over to > the Witch King... but Smeagol inserted himself into the picture. > > It is undeniable that Smeagol had been enslaved by desire for the > Ring, and had come out from under the mountain in search of it. > However, he was not caught and interrogated by Sauron; how could he > possibly have survived that? No, he had been found by Saruman the > White, who put through a rigorous twelve-step program to free him of > his torment. > > Smeagol crossed paths with Frodo and Sam by purest chance, but it was > a good thing he did. The long years with the Ring had taught him to > see malicious plotting by a malcontent when he saw it, and it was all > over Sam's face. When he found that he could not convince Frodo to > hand the Ring over to him (to bring to Saruman), he felt that the only > thing left for him to do was to follow them and make sure Sam didn't > get a chance to give the Ring away. > > In reality, it was Smeagol who picked up Sting and defied Shelob (whom > he had known nothing about); Smeagol who forced Sam to give the Ring > back to Frodo after breaking them out of the Tower; and Smeagol who > ultimately had to beat down Sam to wrest control of the Ring from > Frodo and leap into Orodruin's fiery depths, nobly giving himself up > to save the world. > > The cunning Sam managed to conceal his true motives the entire time. > However, within a few years of returning to the Shire, he was able to > engineer Frodo's disappearance, producing genuine-seeming legal > documents showing that he was now the heir to the Baggins fortune. > Merry and Pippin were a little suspicious, but Sam managed to paint > such a convincing picture of how close he had been to Frodo and > glorified his "dear master" so much to everybody that nobody gave it > much of a closer look. > > As they say: the TRUTH is OUT THERE! > > ------ > SYSTEM NOTE: /dev/earth is 95% full. Please delete anyone you can. LOL. Now all is clear. Except: Sam's dad wasn't a tiller of the earth, he was apprenticed as a gardener to his uncle; Sauron wanted to keep the Nazgul East of Anduin until the last possible moment, he did have other spies (I prefer Pippin as the agent of Sauron not Sam, Pippin always struck me as being a right nosy bugger) but the Rangers were guarding The Shire. The truth is in there. > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: smokybarnable@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam as a spy Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 09:44:29 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <8g0e1q$j7r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8fuk4f$cfq3$1@fu-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.120.155.76 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu May 18 09:44:29 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x32.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 212.120.155.76 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsmokybarnable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19323 In article <8fuk4f$cfq3$1@fu-berlin.de>, "Andrew Wells" wrote: > > > I posted this very query a few months ago, but got no response (possibly my > ISP's fault - at the time, many of my postings weren't been seen by others). > > Andrew > -- Happens to us all sometime. Do you think this is a textual inconsistency then? Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Piotr Auksztulewicz Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam as a spy Date: 18 May 2000 12:55:51 +0200 Organization: Politechnika Slaska, Gliwice Lines: 50 Message-ID: <8g0i7n$3se$1@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl> References: <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8fu8e0$42i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8fub83$7jp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8fujl1$qpd$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> <8g0cin$hsg$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-981225 ("Volcane") (UNIX) (HP-UX/B.10.20 (9000/800)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.man.poznan.pl!news.man.lodz.pl!newsfeed.silweb.pl!polsl.gliwice.pl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19357 smokybarnable@my-deja.com wrote: > Pippin, however, had some suspicion. He had snuck a peek at Bilbo's It was Merry. > memoirs and had witnessed Bilbo using the ring once but that was at a > distance and all Pippin saw was a flash of gold in Bilbo's hand before > he disappeared. It still does not explain why Sam was spying on Frodo. Because Merry&Pippin were suspicious and thought that Frodo may suddenly disappear as once Bilbo had. They didn't want to let him go alone wherever he planned to go, but I think they didn't know at first what the real reason was. `Yes, the Ring,' said Merry. `My dear old hobbit, you don't allow for the inquisitiveness of friends. I have known about the existence of the Ring for years --- before Bilbo went away, in fact; but since he obviously regarded it as secret, I kept the knowledge in my head, until we formed our conspiracy. I did not know Bilbo, of course, as well as I know you; I was too young, and he was also more careful --- but he was not careful enough. If you want to know how I first found out, I will tell you.' `Go on!' said Frodo faintly. `It was the Sackville-Bagginses that were his downfall, as you might expect. One day, a year before the Party, I happened to be walking along the road, when I saw Bilbo ahead. Suddenly in the distance the S.-B.s appeared, coming towards us. Bilbo slowed down, and then hey presto! he vanished. I was so startled that I hardly had the wits to hide myself in a more ordinary fashion; but I got through the hedge and walked along the field inside. I was peeping through into the road, after the S.-B.s had passed, and was looking straight at Bilbo when he suddenly reappeared. I caught a glint of gold as he put something back in his trouser-pocket. `After that I kept my eyes open. In fact, I confess that I spied. But you must admit that it was very intriguing, and I was only in my teens. I must be the only one in the Shire, besides you Frodo, that has ever seen the old fellow's secret book.' `You have read his book!' cried Frodo. `Good heavens above! Is nothing safe?' `Not too safe, I should say,' said Merry. `But I have only had one rapid glance, and that was difficult to get. He never left the book about. I wonder what became of it. I should like another look. Have you got it, Frodo?' -- Piotr Auksztulewicz piotras@zeus.polsl.gliwice.pl Centrum Komputerowe Politechniki Šl±skiej, Gliwice, Akademicka 16 ###### From: Eruadan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam as a spy Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:35:39 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8g0v3q$69e$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.239.8.77 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu May 18 14:35:39 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (WinNT; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x43.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 129.239.8.77 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDeruadan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19318 In article , warrenchang@newyorkcityc.om (Warren Chang) wrote: > Smoky: > > Your spotting of the logical inconsistencies in the story and distrust > of Sam is highly perceptive, but only a scratch on the surface of > things. You see, in addition to being gluttonous sneaks, Hobbits are > notorious revisionists. Let us not forget that the so-called "Red > Book of Westmarch" is supposedly written by Bilbo and Frodo Baggins, [snip] O.Sharp, are you goinf to gpu this on the Sarcasm Page? > ------ > SYSTEM NOTE: /dev/earth is 95% full. Please delete anyone you can. May have a point, here. Eruadan -- <*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*> Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, because to them you are small, insignificant, and taste good with ketchup Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: darat9999@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam as a spy Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 14:58:24 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8g10e6$85v$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8fuk4f$cfq3$1@fu-berlin.de> <8g0e1q$j7r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.114.124.191 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu May 18 14:58:24 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x26.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 162.114.124.191 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdarat9999 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19315 Smokybarnable question to Mr. Wells re his/her Sam theory: "Do you think this is a textual inconsistency then?" Dear Smoke, IMO, this is not a textual inquiry. Sam's spying was not focusing on the Ring, but on Frodo's plans to leave the Shire (which his friends were quite unaware of until Sam started filling them in). Take Care, Paul Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "Andrew Wells" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam as a spy Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 18:00:21 +0100 Organization: Wellinghall Lines: 23 Message-ID: <8g17jb$fvgo$1@fu-berlin.de> References: <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8fuk4f$cfq3$1@fu-berlin.de> <8g0e1q$j7r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.159.76.109 X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 958669239 523800 212.159.76.109 (16 [23037]) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!212.159.76.109!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19321 smokybarnable@my-deja.com wrote in message <8g0e1q$j7r$1@nnrp1.deja.com>... >In article <8fuk4f$cfq3$1@fu-berlin.de>, > "Andrew Wells" wrote: >> >> >> I posted this very query a few months ago, but got no response >(possibly my >> ISP's fault - at the time, many of my postings weren't been seen by >others). >> >Happens to us all sometime. > >Do you think this is a textual inconsistency then? Yes, ja, da, oui, certainly, absolutely. Andrew -- Andrew Wells Replace nospam with my first name to reach me ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam as a spy Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 10:07:40 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 13 Message-ID: <7q88isckbi41ntbbc76qfvqd2m94t0r6de@4ax.com> References: <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8fuk4f$cfq3$1@fu-berlin.de> <8g0e1q$j7r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8g17jb$fvgo$1@fu-berlin.de> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19362 On Thu, 18 May 2000 18:00:21 +0100, "Andrew Wells" wrote: >Yes, ja, da, oui, certainly, absolutely. Affoimative - Curly. the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- "If you ever reach total enlightenment while you're drinking a beer, I bet it makes beer shoot out your nose." --Jack Handy ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam as a spy Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 14:47:00 -0400 Lines: 24 Message-ID: <39258C19.62AE1091@erols.com> References: <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8fu8e0$42i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8fub83$7jp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: LUgQJ0qaCpBcrVemk1DA6W6MBmqPILz8JkJXdFICQLk= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 May 2000 21:47:53 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!portc03.blue.aol.com!howland.erols.net!outgoing.news.rcn.net.MISMATCH!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19447 smokybarnable@my-deja.com wrote: > In article <8fu8e0$42i$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > Anthony Rebello wrote: > > IIRC the conspiracy was > > formed out of fear that Frodo would give his friends the slip and > leave > > without them, not to specifically unravel the mystery of Bilbo's ring. > > But Frodo had given no previous cause for concern, as he knew nothing > of the ring until Gandalf told him, Frodo had no plans to leave The > Shire before the events of that April morning. There was nothing to spy > on. They thought that he would follow Bilbo sooner or later and didn't want him to give them the slip. In fact, they were getting worried about it. Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight Ewoks are Hobbits! > ###### From: smokybarnable@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam as a spy Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 09:49:41 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 36 Message-ID: <8gdk7j$5m9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8fuk4f$cfq3$1@fu-berlin.de> <8g0e1q$j7r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8g10e6$85v$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.120.155.76 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue May 23 09:49:41 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x52.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 212.120.155.76 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsmokybarnable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19545 In article <8g10e6$85v$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, darat9999@my-deja.com wrote: > Smokybarnable question to Mr. Wells re his/her Sam theory: "Do you > think this is a textual inconsistency then?" > > Dear Smoke, > > IMO, this is not a textual inquiry. Sam's spying was not focusing on > the Ring, but on Frodo's plans to leave the Shire (which his friends > were quite unaware of until Sam started filling them in). > > Take Care, > > Paul > Cheers Paul, I've still got my doubts. a) Bilbo vanished from The Shire in 3001 TA, Frodo went on his quest in 3018. This means that Merry would have been "spying" for 17 years, which I think is unlikely given that Frodo showed no sign whatsoever of wanting to leave Bag End until the visit of Gandalf in April 3018. b) I think that if I had a friend who's guardian had disappeared and I suspected that he might want to follow him at some stage I'd probably just ask "Hey, Frodo. If you're ever thinking of wandering off into the blue to look for Bilbo, just tell us will you?" Smoky > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: smokybarnable@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam as a spy Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 13:30:43 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 27 Message-ID: <8ge163$eed$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8g0dts$j76$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.120.155.76 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue May 23 13:30:43 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x56.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 212.120.155.76 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDsmokybarnable Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19543 In article <8g0dts$j76$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, smokybarnable@my-deja.com wrote something and made mistakes. > > Sam's dad wasn't a tiller of the earth, he was apprenticed as a > gardener to his uncle; Ooops. The gaffer was a tiller of the earth as a gardener, twas he that was apprenticed to old holman his uncle. > Sauron wanted to keep the Nazgul East of Anduin until the last possible > moment, he did have other spies (I prefer Pippin as the agent of Sauron > not Sam, Pippin always struck me as being a right nosy bugger) but the > Rangers were guarding The Shire. > Oops again, I meant Merry. Just goes to show nobody reads these things. Well not mine anyway. (sniffs) Smoky Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: darat9999@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam as a spy Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 13:50:45 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 33 Message-ID: <8ge2be$fat$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8fuk4f$cfq3$1@fu-berlin.de> <8g0e1q$j7r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8g10e6$85v$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8gdk7j$5m9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.114.124.191 X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue May 23 13:50:45 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x67.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 162.114.124.191 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdarat9999 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!128.230.129.106!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19557 smokybarnable comments: "I've still got my doubts. a) Bilbo vanished from The Shire in 3001 TA, Frodo went on his quest in 3018. This means that Merry would have been "spying" for 17 years, which I think is unlikely given that Frodo showed no sign whatsoever of wanting to leave Bag End until the visit of Gandalf in April 3018. b) I think that if I had a friend who's guardian had disappeared and I suspected that he might want to follow him at some stage I'd probably just ask "Hey, Frodo. If you're ever thinking of wandering off into the blue to look for Bilbo, just tell us will you?" Dear Smoky, IMO, the 'spying' I was refering to occurred in early 3018 and was accomplished by Sam. As you alluded to above, Frodo had no desire to leave Bag End until then. Both Merry and Pippin knew Frodo had this secret magic ring that he used (and Bilbo had used) to get out of awkward situations. Sam's spying was to gain info on Frodo's 'real' plans, since Merry/Pippin thought his cover story of running out of money/have to sell house to Sackville-Baggins was ludicrous. I certainly agree with your point in 'b'. I too would just ask, but evidently these Hobbits were a repressed lot and liked to beat around the bush alot :). Enjoy hearing your views on Tolkien. Cheers, Paul Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam as a spy Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:13:03 -0400 Lines: 22 Message-ID: <392D5F18.767986AA@aol.com> References: <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8fuk4f$cfq3$1@fu-berlin.de> <8g0e1q$j7r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8g10e6$85v$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8gdk7j$5m9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8ge2be$fat$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: sarb@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: HuDDVr15tBAiGq2dRi5qT3BCBv1OzTBhGSHczV4SS8c= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 May 2000 23:44:49 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20087 darat9999@my-deja.com wrote: > Frodo had this > secret magic ring that he used (and Bilbo had used) to get out of > awkward situations. Only Bilbo, as far as we know. Gandalf warned Frodo against it quite clearly, and, personally, I don't think Frodo would do anything that he said not to do. > Cheers, > > Paul Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight Ewoks are Hobbits! ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam as a spy Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 13:15:38 -0400 Lines: 15 Message-ID: <392D5FB3.8D776B6D@aol.com> References: <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8g0dts$j76$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8ge163$eed$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: sarb@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: HuDDVr15tBC9wqnq0BYwdE5T0qIuJoSfpf6si5EQMVk= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 25 May 2000 23:44:50 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:20092 smokybarnable@my-deja.com wrote: > Just goes to show nobody reads these things. Well not mine anyway. > (sniffs) Oh, we do, Smoky. We do. > Smoky Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam as a spy References: <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8gdk7j$5m9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8ge2be$fat$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <392D5F18.767986AA@aol.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 44 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 959351865 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 26 May 2000 09:37:45 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:37:45 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:37:45 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19759 darat9999@my-deja.com wrote: > > Frodo had this secret magic ring that he used (and Bilbo had used) > > to get out of awkward situations. Quoth sarb@aol.com: > Only Bilbo, as far as we know. Gandalf warned Frodo against it quite > clearly, and, personally, I don't think Frodo would do anything that > he said not to do. I don't know... I find it hard to believe that Frodo would go so many years without even trying the Ring once. I know that in his place I would have been extremely curious, anyway, and the Ring clearly had no really terrible visible effects on Bilbo before he left. I _don't_ think he used it often, but I feel almost certain that he'd used it at least once or twice. Two pieces of evidence (I think I've posted others, and more detailed arguments on this topic in general, in other threads in the past): 1) In Bombadil's house, Frodo puts on the Ring and creeps away to verify that it is in fact his Ring. I just don't see him using this as a test unless he already felt that he had some decent understanding of what wearing the Ring was like. More importantly, if the guy actually had the strength of will to overcome every ounce of curiosity in his body for _seventeen years_, I just can't believe that he would so nonchalantly put the thing on to "test" it. In that scenario, I would have expected him to really struggle with the conflict between the need to verify that he had the real Ring and his overwhelming desire to follow Gandalf's advice. We see no such internal struggle: he just pops on the Ring and heads for the door. 2) In Gandalf's letter to Frodo, he writes "Do NOT use It again". Now, Gandalf clearly knew nothing about Frodo using the Ring at Bombadil's house: the letter was written months earlier. The only explanation that I can see for this comment is that Frodo _had_ used the Ring before, and had told Gandalf so at some point. (I can certainly imagine Gandalf asking, and I can't see Frodo being anything but honest with him.) Incidentally, this belief of mine is why I included a reference in my parody chapter to Frodo having at least one "adventure" with the Ring, despite Ojevind's "wed to celibacy" remark. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: darat9999@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Sam as a spy Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 15:06:47 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <8gm3tq$8sv$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8fu2et$t4i$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8fuk4f$cfq3$1@fu-berlin.de> <8g0e1q$j7r$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8g10e6$85v$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8gdk7j$5m9$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <8ge2be$fat$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <392D5F18.767986AA@aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.114.124.191 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri May 26 15:06:47 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows NT; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x63.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 162.114.124.191 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDdarat9999 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19795 Ermanna commented: "Only Bilbo, as far as we know. Gandalf warned Frodo against it quite clearly, and, personally, I don't think Frodo would do anything that he said not to do." Dear Ermanna, Hope everything is going well with you. As far as your comment above, I thought that Frodo (early in his stewardship of the Ring), was observed by either Merry or Pippin to have used it to escape when he came upon the SBs riding down a road. IIRC, one of them (Merry/Pippin) relays this story to Frodo. Maybe I'm mistaken and it was Bilbo they were talking about, but I thought it was Frodo. I do find it a little hard to believe that the first time Frodo ever put Ring on his finger was at Bombadils. Either way, Merry and Pippin had some limited knowledge of the Ring prior to events of 3018, and that dovetails with my comments in my previous post that Sam was spying to find out what Frodo was really up to vis a vis leaving the Shire. May the Force be with You, Paul Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.