From: nystulc@cs.com (Nystulc) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: An Invasion of Dragons Lines: 120 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.cs.com X-Admin: news@cs.com Date: 14 May 2000 09:38:44 GMT References: Organization: CompuServe (http://www.compuserve.com/) X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000514053844.24942.00003531@nso-ck.news.cs.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!triton.skycache.com!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.cs.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19138 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: >Another oddity in _The Hobbit_, as I continue to read through. In >"Over Hill and Under Hill", we read that the Dwarves had been very >optimistic about the ease of their upcoming journey across the >mountains and to the Lonely Mountain. Gandalf, however, was not so >confident: > > Dwarves had not passed that way for many years, but Gandalf had, > and he knew how evil and danger had grown and thriven in the Wild, > since the dragons had driven men from the lands, and the goblins > had spread in secret after the battle of the Mines of Moria. > >So, sometime between TA 2770 when Smaug took Erebor and TA 2941 when >Bilbo and the dwarves set out on their adventure, "dragons had driven >men from the lands", and to a sufficient degree that the road between >Rivendell and Erebor had become far more dangerous. > >The Tale of Years makes no mention of these mysterious invasions of >dragons, and there is no other allusion to it that I can see. >Moreover, if it did happen, it must have pretty much "used up" the >available supply of dragons or else Sauron might well have tried to >use them in the War as he hoped (according to Gandalf) to use Smaug. >Does anyone out there have any idea of the story behind this comment? >(Yes, I'm looking for a story internal explanation. :) ) I see no problems personally. I think it is pretty much established that there were many other dragons still in Middle Earth besides Smaug. He was by no means the last, nor the only one. He was merely the last of a particularly powerful line, one that has not been rivaled since. Tolkien states in one of his letters that dragons remained active almost until our own day (thus apparently endorsing the existence of numerous dragons of legend -- particularly those of Norse / Germanic legend). So I do not consider this an oddity of the Hobbit. As for why this is not mentioned in the Tale of Years, that is easily answered. The tale of years is EXTREMELY sketchy. Anyone who has studied history in any way can tell you that it is a hopelessly vast and complex subject, and that realistically one cannot possibly cover 3000 plus years of history in less than twenty pages without leaving out COUNTLESS events and developments of enormous significance. The tale of years tends to focus only on the most major events, as well as those events most relevant to the story-participants. For instance, Scatha's depratations, and his ultimate demise at the hands of Fram, are not mentioned in the Tale of Years at all (though they are mentioned elsewhere in the appendices). The failure of an event to be mentioned in the Tale of Years cannot be used as evidence that it did not happen. Dragons are in fact mentioned, however, in four points. In the pre-text to the "The Third Age" it states that "The Dwarves hid themselves in deep places, guarding their hoards; but when evil began to stir again and dragons reappeared, one by one their ancient treasures were plundered, and they became a wandering people. Moria for long remained secure..." Apparently a great many dwarf strongholds were sacked by dragons before Moria was abandoned in 1981 -- yet none of these tremendous and traumatic events are mentioned within the chronology of the Tale of Years itself. In the chronology itself, dragons are not mentioned until 2570: "About this time Dragons reappear in the far North and begin to afflict the dwarves." This is, evidently, at least the second time Dragons have reappeared and plagued dwarves in the course of the Third Age. The first reappearance was perhaps around 1300 when it is said that "Evil things begin to multiply again." Perhaps the dragons took a break of sorts after the defeat of the Witch King? Or perhaps the defeat of Scatha by Fram had something to do with it (year? -- evidently some time after 2050) for Tolkien writes that "the land [Ered Mithrin? or Eotheod?] had peace from the long-worms afterwards." The third mention is 2589, when Dain I is slain by a Dragon, and the fourth mention, of course, is of Smaug, who descends on Erebor in 2770. The other issue raised is the question of why Sauron did not use the Dragons in the War, the way Gandalf feared he might use Smaug. First thing to be said is that this cannot be used as argument against the continued existence of Dragons, since that is already established. The second thing I would like to comment on is that we have absolutely no evidence that Sauron did *not* use Dragons during the War. The most that can be said is that it does not appear that he used them against Gondor (in the South) -- at least not in any of the battles that we are aware of. But clearly, the fact that something is not mentioned (in the Third-Age equivalent of a vast World War) does not prove that it did not happen. It is quite possible that some Dragons were used -- and a great many human and dwarven settlements destroyed, by Dragons during this period, particularly with respect to Northern settlements of which we have little knowledge. They do not appear to have attacked Dale and Erebor (that we know) but who can blame them, considering what happened to Smaug. They could easily have attacked and destroyed a good many other human or dwarven strongholds at this time. Or perhaps they were involved in the battle of Erebor. The account of the battle is so sketchy that the participation of a couple of dragons could have easily been left out. I'm sure Oliphants would not have been mentioned had the battles in the South been described as sketchily. It seems also quite possible that Dragons were involved in the invasion of Thranduil's realm -- perhaps they had something to do with the "great ruin of fire" that occurred, though this could easily be attributed to Orcs and Easterlings. Also, there is no reason to believe that Sauron would have found it easy to get Dragons to serve as soldiers in his armies. These are proud and powerful creatures, and perhaps rather difficult to control. I'm sure that they can, in their pride, be manipulated in subtle ways, and that Sauron has long influenced their depradations in the North, but getting them to actually serve in his armies might well be another matter. Nor does this mean that Gandalf's fear of Sauron using Smaug "to terrible effect" was unrealistic. It is quite possible that Sauron could have manipulated Smaug to wreak some havoc without Smaug actually agreeing to join his forces and march with his armies. If Bilbo could incite Smaug to attack Laketown by accident, imagine what Sauron might do by design. Imagine the damage he might have done to Thranduil's realm if Sauron had convinced him that Thranduil had stolen some of his treasure. The remaining dragons are not nearly as powerful as Smaug, but they might be just as unruly and difficult to control. They might spend more time eating Sauron's Easterling soldiers than attacking the enemies -- thus severely destroying the Easterling morale. While a super-weapon like Smaug might be worth some effort to control and manipulate, lesser dragons might not be worth the same degree of effort and attention. Even without Smaug's active assistance, his presence in Erebor was a major boon to the Dark Lord. The destruction of Smaug permitted the reestablishement of the kingdoms of Erebor and Dale -- which then stood in the way of the advance of Sauron's forces. As explained in "The Quest for Erebor", it is possible that without these kingdoms to stand in the way of invaders, Eriador might have been over-run before the ringbearers quest succeeded. -- John Whelan