Message-ID: <3916106F.D3CA26AF@uchicago.edu> From: sam th X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.3.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Elven Women Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.118.39 X-Trace: uchinews 957747308 128.135.118.39 (Sun, 07 May 2000 19:55:08 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 19:55:08 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 19:55:11 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18700 Upon yet another rereading, I have come accross this interesting puzzle. According to "The Council of Elrond" among other sources, Arwen looked a lot like Luthien (she was even said to be a 'return' of Luthien). This makes lots of sense, there being a direct line of descent. But in "The Steward and The King," when Eomer and Gimli discuss the relative beauty of Galadriel and Arwen, Gimli associates Galadriel with the morning which is fading, and Arwen with the evening. My problem is this. If Arwen looks so much like Luthien, she should not have an appearance that suggests the fading of the Elves, of which Luthien was the fairest. As a side note, if Arwen really looked like Luthien, there not have been any question as to who was fairest, as Luthien was "the fairest of the Children of Illuvatar." -- sam th sam@uchicago.edu http://sam.rh.uchicago.edu ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Women References: <3916106F.D3CA26AF@uchicago.edu> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 46 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 957750698 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 07 May 2000 20:51:38 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 20:51:38 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 01:51:38 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18751 Quoth sam th : > But in "The Steward and The King," when Eomer and Gimli discuss > the relative beauty of Galadriel and Arwen, Gimli associates > Galadriel with the morning which is fading, and Arwen with the > evening. I can think of two possible explanations for these associations. First of all, I'm pretty sure that both Arwen and Luthien had black hair, while Galadriel's hair was golden. Thus, the direct inspiration for Gimli's morning vs. evening comparison could simply be that of direct physical appearance. (Not only that, but Luthien and her hair were directly associated with sleep: most of the magic that we see her perform is connected to sleep in some way.) Second, it seems possible that the actual appearances of the two women weren't the point: Galadriel was born and grew up in the morning of the Eldar, in Aman itself, and was one of the most powerful and influential of the Eldar in the First Age and before. In some sense, she _is_ the most concrete sign of the morning of the Elves that remains in Middle-earth at the time of LotR. Arwen, on the other hand, is of _very_ mixed blood (see the recent thread where I broke down her ancestry), including a good dash of humankind. While she recalls the beauty of Luthien, she has never seen the Eldar in the glory that they once knew: there has never even been a king of the Noldor in her lifetime. Not only that, but she consciously chose to turn her back on her Elven heritage and become the mother of the new kings of Men. In this sense, then, the phrase could simply refer to the _roles_ of the two women rather than to their appearance. Alternately, those backgrounds might well be reflected in their personalities and even to some degree in their appearance: it's the sort of thing that someone who looked carefully might be able to discern. > As a side note, if Arwen really looked like Luthien, there > not have been any question as to who was fairest, as Luthien > was "the fairest of the Children of Illuvatar." I don't know. A man who really, really preferred women with blonde hair rather than black might fairly easily choose a stunningly beautiful blonde woman over a slightly more beautiful black haired woman. And anyway, Gimli's a dwarf. Who _knows_ what they find attractive: their women have _beards_, for goodness sake. :) Steuard Jensen ###### Message-ID: <3916347C.65AC0A02@uchicago.edu> From: sam th X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.3.36 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Women References: <3916106F.D3CA26AF@uchicago.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 81 NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.118.39 X-Trace: uchinews 957756561 128.135.118.39 (Sun, 07 May 2000 22:29:21 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 22:29:21 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 22:29:00 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18698 Steuard Jensen wrote: > > Quoth sam th : > > But in "The Steward and The King," when Eomer and Gimli discuss > > the relative beauty of Galadriel and Arwen, Gimli associates > > Galadriel with the morning which is fading, and Arwen with the > > evening. > > I can think of two possible explanations for these associations. > First of all, I'm pretty sure that both Arwen and Luthien had black > hair, while Galadriel's hair was golden. Thus, the direct inspiration > for Gimli's morning vs. evening comparison could simply be that of > direct physical appearance. (Not only that, but Luthien and her hair > were directly associated with sleep: most of the magic that we see her > perform is connected to sleep in some way.) > > Second, it seems possible that the actual appearances of the two women > weren't the point: Galadriel was born and grew up in the morning of > the Eldar, in Aman itself, and was one of the most powerful and > influential of the Eldar in the First Age and before. In some sense, > she _is_ the most concrete sign of the morning of the Elves that > remains in Middle-earth at the time of LotR. Arwen, on the other > hand, is of _very_ mixed blood (see the recent thread where I broke > down her ancestry), including a good dash of humankind. While she > recalls the beauty of Luthien, she has never seen the Eldar in the > glory that they once knew: there has never even been a king of the > Noldor in her lifetime. Not only that, but she consciously chose to > turn her back on her Elven heritage and become the mother of the new > kings of Men. > > In this sense, then, the phrase could simply refer to the _roles_ of > the two women rather than to their appearance. Alternately, those > backgrounds might well be reflected in their personalities and even to > some degree in their appearance: it's the sort of thing that someone > who looked carefully might be able to discern. It's precisely the idea of 'roles' that I think makes this contradictory. The association the Gimli makes is Galadriel<=>Age of Elves and Arwen<=>Age of Men. I have no trouble making the associations that he makes, just not based on appearance, provided that Arwen indeed looks like Luthien, who I would have real trouble associating with the decline of the Elder Race. I think the best solution would be to suggest that Gimli projects his knowledge about the actual role of Arwen onto his ideas about here appearance. > > > As a side note, if Arwen really looked like Luthien, there > > not have been any question as to who was fairest, as Luthien > > was "the fairest of the Children of Illuvatar." > > I don't know. A man who really, really preferred women with blonde > hair rather than black might fairly easily choose a stunningly > beautiful blonde woman over a slightly more beautiful black haired > woman. And anyway, Gimli's a dwarf. Who _knows_ what they find > attractive: their women have _beards_, for goodness sake. :) > > Steuard Jensen An of the love of Thingol and Melian came into the world the fairest of the Children of Iluvatar that was or shall ever be. for Luthien was the most beautiful of all of the Children of Iluvatar. she was the fairest maiden that has ever been among the children of this world. Aditonally, Melian is said to be the most beautiful of all the Maiar. The impression that I get from all this is that the Beauty of Luthien deserves the capital B, and was not really a matter of opinion. -- sam th sam@uchicago.edu http://sam.rh.uchicago.edu ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Women Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 00:16:30 -0400 Lines: 22 Message-ID: <39163F98.9619B0E0@erols.com> References: <3916106F.D3CA26AF@uchicago.edu> <3916347C.65AC0A02@uchicago.edu> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ao/Dsg9neP6Q/ZlhNYkxgOWmZgnNQ/qhm/dhlGIYKbE= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 May 2000 10:46:59 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18760 sam th wrote: > > I don't know. A man who really, really preferred women with blonde > > hair rather than black might fairly easily choose a stunningly > > beautiful blonde woman over a slightly more beautiful black haired > > woman. And anyway, Gimli's a dwarf. Who _knows_ what they find > > attractive: their women have _beards_, for goodness sake. :) I think it's possible to overemphasize the role of physical beauty here. Part of Gimli's devotion to Galadriel was due to the depth of her wisdom and compassion, which he glimpsed when they met at Lórien. Only then did he develop the hair fetish. I think that his devotion to her made her more beautiful to him than even Arwen, even if the latter were more beautiful in "objective" terms. -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Women References: <3916106F.D3CA26AF@uchicago.edu> <3916347C.65AC0A02@uchicago.edu> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 44 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 957759656 128.135.12.7 (Sun, 07 May 2000 23:20:56 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 23:20:56 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 04:20:56 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18759 Quoth sam th : > Steuard Jensen wrote: > > I don't know. A man who really, really preferred women with blonde > > hair rather than black might fairly easily choose a stunningly > > beautiful blonde woman over a slightly more beautiful black haired > > woman. And anyway, Gimli's a dwarf. Who _knows_ what they find > > attractive: their women have _beards_, for goodness sake. :) > > An of the love of Thingol and Melian came into the world the fairest > of the Children of Iluvatar that was or shall ever be. > First comment: this specifically indicates that Luthien was fairer than Arwen. Thus, while it might be possible to argue that Luthien would have been deemed more beautiful than Galadriel based on this quote, Arwen must necessarily be at least a step down from this unreachable height of beauty. > The impression that I get from all this is that the Beauty of Luthien > deserves the capital B, and was not really a matter of opinion. I can see that reading. On the other hand, it could also be taken to mean something like "95% of human and Elven males would choose Luthien as Most Beautiful". Still a clear win, but not universal. I really do think that personal taste would inevitably play a role. (I'm occasionally quite surprised by what some people consider to be attractive.) On yet another note, Silm. tells us that Galadriel was "most beautiful of all the house of Finwe", so she was certainly pretty high on the list of beautiful women. I can certainly imagine her being _close_ even to Luthien in the grand scheme of things. Given that, I don't think it's entirely strange that Gimli, who is not even of the human/Elven species, could be in the minority who preferred Galadriel. (Like I said, Dwarves are weird... and I'm not entirely convinced that Gimli didn't have some degree of love for Galadriel that may have affected his judgement.) > sam@uchicago.edu Hey, look at that. Are you an undergrad here, or a grad student of one persuasion or another? Steuard Jensen ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Women Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 01:02:41 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <3916106F.D3CA26AF@uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.c0.5e X-Server-Date: 8 May 2000 05:01:02 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news.minn.net!falcon.america.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18746 Don't forget, Arwen was Luthien's great-great-granddaughter (if I've counted the generations correctly), so a family resemblance is not out of the question. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Women Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 22:36:30 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 13 Message-ID: <6ugchsgncrhb8gm5ndabblb5e4kepvj325@4ax.com> References: <3916106F.D3CA26AF@uchicago.edu> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18748 On Mon, 08 May 2000 01:51:38 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >First of all, I'm pretty sure that both Arwen and Luthien had black >hair, while Galadriel's hair was golden. Ya know, this is quite a genetic trick seeing as Grandaddy and Daddy both had Silver hair IIRC. the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Drugs cause amnesia and other things I can't remember... ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Women Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <391697e8.94198779@news.verio.net> References: <3916106F.D3CA26AF@uchicago.edu> <3916347C.65AC0A02@uchicago.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 32 Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 10:45:12 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.130 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 957782557 198.172.26.130 (Mon, 08 May 2000 10:42:37 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 10:42:37 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18711 On Mon, 08 May 2000 04:20:56 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: >On yet another note, Silm. tells us that Galadriel was "most beautiful >of all the house of Finwe", so she was certainly pretty high on the Wait a minute. Arwen is the daughter of Celebrian, the daughter of Galadriel, the daughter of Finarfin, the son of Finwe. Arwen is also the daughter of Elrond, the son of Earendil, the son of Idril, the daughter of Turgon, the son of Fingolfin, the son of Finwe. Therefore, _Arwen_ is a member of the house of Finwe. Therefore, Galadriel is more beautiful than Arwen. (According to Pengolodh's tastes in women, at least. I'd probably disagree with him.) >list of beautiful women. I can certainly imagine her being _close_ >even to Luthien in the grand scheme of things. Given that, I don't She was the one closest to Luthien in the 'power' department, also. But if Luthien were running Lothlorien in the Third Age, she would have taken the Ring and braided it into her hair "because it looks nice, especially next to Nenya", and then blasted Sauron into tiny pieces (using the power of the Ring but not realizing it, and thus avoiding the temptation to abuse its power), and let someone else take all the credit. ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Women Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 18:00:25 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 29 Message-ID: <8f6kra$chd$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <3916106F.D3CA26AF@uchicago.edu> <3916347C.65AC0A02@uchicago.edu> <39164E8E.48E8E9CB@uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-q179.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 957798058 12845 212.205.254.179 (8 May 2000 15:00:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 May 2000 15:00:58 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18724 sam th wrote in message news:39164E8E.48E8E9CB@uchicago.edu... > Steuard Jensen wrote: > > > > On yet another note, Silm. tells us that Galadriel was "most beautiful > > of all the house of Finwe", so she was certainly pretty high on the > > list of beautiful women. > > This, sadly, brings up a further problem. Arwen, is of course descended > from Galadriel, and is therefore of the house of Finwe. Therefore, > Arwen is less beautiful than Galadriel. QED Or so it seems. I'm not that certain about this. It seems to me that it's father-lines that cause someone to be included in a "house". Thus Arwen, being daughter of Elrond, son of Earendil, son of Tuor, would be part of the house of Hador if something like that isn't entirely meaningless... But I think that Earendil is a unique enough case to not be considered as part of the house of Hador anymore, but rather as a founder (alongside Elwing) of his own house... So I find it more fitting to say that Arwen is of the House of Earendil, even though such a phrase most probably never occurs in Tolkien... Aris Katsaris ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Women Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 18:01:41 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8f6ktm$cii$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <3916106F.D3CA26AF@uchicago.edu> <6ugchsgncrhb8gm5ndabblb5e4kepvj325@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-q179.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 957798134 12882 212.205.254.179 (8 May 2000 15:02:14 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 8 May 2000 15:02:14 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18726 the softrat wrote in message news:6ugchsgncrhb8gm5ndabblb5e4kepvj325@4ax.com... > On Mon, 08 May 2000 01:51:38 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu > (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > > >First of all, I'm pretty sure that both Arwen and Luthien had black > >hair, while Galadriel's hair was golden. > > Ya know, this is quite a genetic trick seeing as Grandaddy and Daddy > both had Silver hair IIRC. I thought that Elrond's hair was black with only hints of silver. Aris Katsaris ###### From: Robert Brady Subject: Re: Elven Women Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3916106F.D3CA26AF@uchicago.edu> <3916347C.65AC0A02@uchicago.edu> <391697e8.94198779@news.verio.net> Reply-To: rwb197@ecs.soton.ac.uk X-URL: http://www.aber.mud.org/ X-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991124 ("Blueprint") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.11 (i686)) NNTP-Posting-Host: zombie.ecs.soton.ac.uk Message-ID: <3916db26@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Date: 8 May 2000 16:20:06 GMT X-Trace: 8 May 2000 16:20:06 GMT, zombie.ecs.soton.ac.uk Lines: 29 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!news0.de.colt.net!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.germany.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news-spool.soton.ac.uk!news.ecs.soton.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18808 Mark Wells wrote: >On Mon, 08 May 2000 04:20:56 GMT, sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu >(Steuard Jensen) wrote: >>On yet another note, Silm. tells us that Galadriel was "most beautiful >>of all the house of Finwe", so she was certainly pretty high on the >Wait a minute. >Arwen is the daughter of Celebrian, the daughter of Galadriel, the >daughter of Finarfin, the son of Finwe. Arwen is also the daughter of >Elrond, the son of Earendil, the son of Idril, the daughter of Turgon, >the son of Fingolfin, the son of Finwe. >Therefore, _Arwen_ is a member of the house of Finwe. >Therefore, Galadriel is more beautiful than Arwen. >(According to Pengolodh's tastes in women, at least. I'd probably >disagree with him.) Except Arwen had not yet been born at the time Pengolodh wrote that bit, perhaps? -- Robert "Any person who knowingly causes a nuclear weapon test explosion or any other nuclear explosion is guilty of an offence and liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for life." -- Nuclear Explosions Act 1998. ###### From: Julie Lim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Women Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 21:16:36 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 46 Message-ID: <8f7ar4$3uf$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <3916106F.D3CA26AF@uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.167.40.120 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon May 08 21:16:36 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.08 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x32.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 141.167.40.120 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDwombat1138 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18795 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote: > First of all, I'm pretty sure that both Arwen and Luthien had black > hair, while Galadriel's hair was golden. As a nitpick, I'm pretty sure that Luthien's hair was not actually black, at least not to start with. On the other hand, this is all subject to poetic license. All quotes are from memory and subject to inexactitude. Luthien's hair is described as "dark as evening", which does imply a lush blue-black. However, after she lays on the mystic spell of Rogaine and snips off most of it for a cloak, her hair is described as growing back "darker than before". One weasel clause might be that originally, while her hair was black at the roots, it had undergone subtle sun-bleaching which wasn't obvious until the old hair was compared with fresh hair, I never have figured out the genetics of hair-color inheritance among the elves, however. Finwe (dark) x Miriel (silver?) -> brunet Finwe (dark) x Indis (gold) -> 1 brunet and 1 blond Finarfin (gold) x Earwen (silver) -> all blond(e) children? Celeborn (silver) x Galadriel (gold) -> Celebrian (presumably silver-haired from her name) Elrond (dark) x Celebrian (silver?) -> all dark-haired children? Turgon (dark?) x Elenwe (gold) -> blonde Thingol (silver) x Melian (dark) -> brunette Etc. Which means I will probably never figure out what color Elwing's hair was. Probably not red or gold, but either dark or silver could be reasonably supported. -- ('^, * wombat.1138@yahoo.com (NB: my real username has no dot) * Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Tamim Khawaja Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Women Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 22:35:06 +0300 Organization: Helsingin Yliopisto Lines: 85 Message-ID: <3922F46A.E2A86B13@mappi.helsinki.fi> References: <3916106F.D3CA26AF@uchicago.edu> <3916347C.65AC0A02@uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: milda.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 958592139 4671 128.214.204.18 (17 May 2000 19:35:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 May 2000 19:35:39 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19344 sam th wrote: > > Steuard Jensen wrote: > > > > Quoth sam th : > > > But in "The Steward and The King," when Eomer and Gimli discuss > > > the relative beauty of Galadriel and Arwen, Gimli associates > > > Galadriel with the morning which is fading, and Arwen with the > > > evening. > > > > I can think of two possible explanations for these associations. > > First of all, I'm pretty sure that both Arwen and Luthien had black > > hair, while Galadriel's hair was golden. Thus, the direct inspiration > > for Gimli's morning vs. evening comparison could simply be that of > > direct physical appearance. (Not only that, but Luthien and her hair > > were directly associated with sleep: most of the magic that we see her > > perform is connected to sleep in some way.) > > > > Second, it seems possible that the actual appearances of the two women > > weren't the point: Galadriel was born and grew up in the morning of > > the Eldar, in Aman itself, and was one of the most powerful and > > influential of the Eldar in the First Age and before. In some sense, > > she _is_ the most concrete sign of the morning of the Elves that > > remains in Middle-earth at the time of LotR. Arwen, on the other > > hand, is of _very_ mixed blood (see the recent thread where I broke > > down her ancestry), including a good dash of humankind. While she > > recalls the beauty of Luthien, she has never seen the Eldar in the > > glory that they once knew: there has never even been a king of the > > Noldor in her lifetime. Not only that, but she consciously chose to > > turn her back on her Elven heritage and become the mother of the new > > kings of Men. > > > > In this sense, then, the phrase could simply refer to the _roles_ of > > the two women rather than to their appearance. Alternately, those > > backgrounds might well be reflected in their personalities and even to > > some degree in their appearance: it's the sort of thing that someone > > who looked carefully might be able to discern. > > It's precisely the idea of 'roles' that I think makes this > contradictory. The association the Gimli makes is Galadriel<=>Age of > Elves and Arwen<=>Age of Men. I have no trouble making the > associations that he makes, just not based on appearance, provided > that Arwen indeed looks like Luthien, who I would have real trouble > associating with the decline of the Elder Race. I think the best > solution would be to suggest that Gimli projects his knowledge about > the actual role of Arwen onto his ideas about here appearance. > > > > > > As a side note, if Arwen really looked like Luthien, there > > > not have been any question as to who was fairest, as Luthien > > > was "the fairest of the Children of Illuvatar." > > > > I don't know. A man who really, really preferred women with blonde > > hair rather than black might fairly easily choose a stunningly > > beautiful blonde woman over a slightly more beautiful black haired > > woman. And anyway, Gimli's a dwarf. Who _knows_ what they find > > attractive: their women have _beards_, for goodness sake. :) > > > > Steuard Jensen > > > An of the love of Thingol and Melian came into the world the fairest > of the Children of Iluvatar that was or shall ever be. > > > > for Luthien was the most beautiful of all of the Children of Iluvatar. > > > > she was the fairest maiden that has ever been among the children of > this world. > > > Aditonally, Melian is said to be the most beautiful of all the Maiar. > > The impression that I get from all this is that the Beauty of Luthien > deserves the capital B, and was not really a matter of opinion. As Aragorn was not Elendil, similarly Arwen was not Luthien. She might have resembled Luthien, but that doesn't make her Luthien. Tamim the OLOG who has sense for beauty ###### From: Tamim Khawaja Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Elven Women Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 23:05:05 +0300 Organization: Helsingin Yliopisto Lines: 7 Message-ID: <3922FB71.DC38BB7@mappi.helsinki.fi> References: <3916106F.D3CA26AF@uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ylimatruusi.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 958593940 6425 128.214.204.93 (17 May 2000 20:05:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 17 May 2000 20:05:40 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.germany.net!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:19342 Stan Brown wrote: > > Don't forget, Arwen was Luthien's great-great-granddaughter (if > I've counted the generations correctly), so a family resemblance is > not out of the question. > Correct