From: "Leon Moore" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Celeborn & Thranduil Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 15:05:43 +0100 Organization: [ posted via UKOnline ] Lines: 13 Message-ID: <8epc4m$6a7$1@apple.news.easynet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tnt-10-151.easynet.co.uk X-Trace: apple.news.easynet.net 957363158 6471 212.134.16.151 (3 May 2000 14:12:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ukonline.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 May 2000 14:12:38 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news-fra1.dfn.de!aconews.univie.ac.at!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!netnews.com!newspeer1.nac.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!apple.news.easynet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18264 I'm curious as to the lineage of Celeborn. I read in the 'Tolkien Companion' that he was a kinsman of Thingol, but more surprisingly that he was related to Thranduil. I thought Thranduil was a silvan and that Celeborn a sindar elf? Any thoughts or ideas? Leon mailto: magic@monkey-house.co.uk ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 03 May 2000 15:02:56 GMT References: <8epc4m$6a7$1@apple.news.easynet.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000503110256.19068.00002956@nso-fg.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18251 In article <8epc4m$6a7$1@apple.news.easynet.net>, "Leon Moore" writes: >I'm curious as to the lineage of Celeborn. I read in the 'Tolkien >Companion' that he was a kinsman of Thingol, but more surprisingly that he >was related to Thranduil. Thingol (aka Elwe) had two brothers Olwe and Elmo. Olwe went on to rule the Teleri who lived in Alqualonde in Aman. Celeborn is descended from the third brother Elmo. Elmo's son was Galadhon. Galadhon had two sons Celeborn and Galathil. Thus, Thingol was Celeborn's great-uncle. By the way, Galathil's daughter was Nimloth, who married Dior, Elwe Thingol's grandson. Thus Dior and his wife Nimloth were second cousins once removed. Anywho... > I thought Thranduil was a silvan and that >Celeborn a sindar elf? Actually, they are both Sindar. Thranduil's father (forgot his name) was an elf of Doriath who emigrated east after the fall of Doriath and Beleriand and took up rule of the Silvan elves living in Greenwood (later Mirkwood). Therefore it was a Silvan realm ruled by Sindar. It's likely, though I do not think stated that Thranduil's father was somehow related to the Telerin royal house but not too high up. I doubt some garden variety Sindarin refugee from Beleriand could rise to be king of a major Silvan realm. Maybe he was Nimloth's brother and so Celeborn's nephew. Anyway, Thranduil's father was killed in the War of the Last Alliance and Thranduil became king. Russ ###### From: "David Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8epc4m$6a7$1@apple.news.easynet.net> Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 16:41:46 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.18.29.247 X-Trace: nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech.net 957386197 209.18.29.247 (Wed, 03 May 2000 15:36:37 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 15:36:37 CDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ameritech.net!nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18313 Leon Moore wrote in message news:8epc4m$6a7$1@apple.news.easynet.net... > I'm curious as to the lineage of Celeborn. I read in the 'Tolkien > Companion' that he was a kinsman of Thingol, but more surprisingly that he > was related to Thranduil. I thought Thranduil was a silvan and that > Celeborn a sindar elf? > > Any thoughts or ideas? Tolkien proposed two ideas on this subject of Celeborn's origins: 1. Celeborn is a Sinda of Beleriand and is the grandson of Thingol's brother Elmo. He met Galadriel in Beleriand. 2. Celeborn is a Teler of Aman and is the grandson of Olwe, Thingol's other brother. He met Galadriel in Aman and together they came to Middle-earth independent of Feanor's rebellion. The second idea is the later of the two but I don't believe that either story was written into the Quenta Silmarillion. When Christopher Tolkien edited _The Silmarillion_ he made Celeborn an undefined "kinsman" of Thingol. As for Thranduil he was a Sinda originally from Beleriand who in the Third Age ruled the Silvan-elves of Mirkwood. I can't think of any referance to Celeborn being related to Thranduil. Dave ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 22:53:41 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 10 Message-ID: <7213-3910E635-23@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <20000503110256.19068.00002956@nso-fg.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQsqnsJ1qHOHmPiVGJ8ghpfLOy+nQIUaP6lE0jLe15ApwuPn3Sez4GPrpE= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18316 Russ wrote: >Thranduil's father (forgot his name) was >an elf of Doriath I believe his name was Oropher (not sure, since I'm too lazy to look it up in UT right now). --Dave ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 23:00:19 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 29 Message-ID: <7213-3910E7C3-24@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhREM0hJ6LjasqEQH6+mz4Q1PRwyfQIUPmdOQfoFQiXzmzryRYzMDDaXEdc= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18320 David Lind wrote: >Tolkien proposed two ideas on this >subject of Celeborn's origins: >1. Celeborn is a Sinda of Beleriand [snip] >He met Galadriel in Beleriand. >2. Celeborn is a Teler of Aman and is the >grandson of Olwe, Thingol's other >brother. He met Galadriel in Aman and >together they came to Middle-earth >independent of Feanor's rebellion. Wasn't there also a third idea about him being a silvan elf or something in UT? >The second idea is the later of the two >but I don't believe that either story was >written into the Quenta Silmarillion. The second version, as mentioned in UT, was among the last of Tolkien's writings before he died. I generally accept the Sinda version, since it seems to be the most often used throughout Tolkien's work (plus it's a useful distinction when I want to bad mouth the most boring Eldar race of ME). --Dave ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil References: <8epc4m$6a7$1@apple.news.easynet.net> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 40 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 957411947 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 03 May 2000 22:45:47 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 22:45:47 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 03:45:47 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18310 Quoth "Leon Moore" : > I'm curious as to the lineage of Celeborn. I read in the 'Tolkien > Companion' that he was a kinsman of Thingol, but more surprisingly > that he was related to Thranduil. Well, your first mistake was probably in reading the "Tolkien Companion." (this _is_ one of David Day's books, right?) People have posted quite a few examples in which Day clearly invented details that do not appear in Tolkien's writings, none of which are ever labeled. After reading a few threads about David Day's unreliability, I've pretty much decided that it won't ever be worth my time to read his books myself. As for Celeborn, as far as I know all of Tolkien's thoughts on the subject come from _Unfinished Tales_, and in particular from the chapter "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn". There's no clear answer, however: Celeborn seems to have been at various times a Nandorin Elf (one of the Teleri who stopped East of the Misty Mountains), a Sindarin Elf, or a Telerin Elf of Valinor. You can read the chapter for full details, but I'll give a brief rundown of some of Christopher Tolkien's comments here. The Nandorin story (in which Galadriel crossed the Mountains and met Celeborn in his own country) was apparently stated fairly explicitly in an unpublished writing and seems to be the most natural interpretation of Galadriel's comments in the text of FotR. The Sindarin story is stated in Appendix B reasonably explicitly, and was the one chosen by Christopher for use in the published _Silmarillion_. The Telerin story seems to have been one of the last things Tolkien ever wrote about Middle-earth (in the last month of his life), and seems to have been motivated by a desire to completely disconnect Galadriel from Feanor's rebellion. Personally, I think the Sindarin story is pretty convincingly the most canonical. > I thought Thranduil was a silvan and that Celeborn a sindar elf? Thranduil is discussed in Appendix B to "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn", which is entitled "The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves". :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 21:31:16 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 30 Message-ID: <6tu1hs0g4tm1nit12hftoab2q7ol79r320@4ax.com> References: <8epc4m$6a7$1@apple.news.easynet.net> <20000503110256.19068.00002956@nso-fg.aol.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18386 On 03 May 2000 15:02:56 GMT, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: >In article <8epc4m$6a7$1@apple.news.easynet.net>, "Leon Moore" > writes: > >> I thought Thranduil was a silvan and that >>Celeborn a sindar elf? > >Actually, they are both Sindar. Thranduil's father (forgot his name) was an >elf of Doriath who emigrated east after the fall of Doriath and Beleriand and >took up rule of the Silvan elves living in Greenwood (later Mirkwood). >Therefore it was a Silvan realm ruled by Sindar. It's likely, though I do not >think stated that Thranduil's father was somehow related to the Telerin royal >house but not too high up. I doubt some garden variety Sindarin refugee from >Beleriand could rise to be king of a major Silvan realm. Maybe he was >Nimloth's brother and so Celeborn's nephew. Anyway, Thranduil's father was >killed in the War of the Last Alliance and Thranduil became king. > Apparently, as revealed in UT, JRRT had the intention of rewriting Celeborn's biography to make him a Teler of Aman with the (unfortunate) name of Teleporno, meaning 'silver-tall' in Telerin. I guess that Tolkien could not accept that Galadriel would marry a mere Sinda. Personally I find these changes distasteful. I hope that Tolkien would ultimately have rejected them as he did with the projected changes to the cosmology of Arda described in HoME. the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Please don't congregate in groups. ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Lines: 22 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 04 May 2000 04:57:07 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000504005707.07547.00003209@nso-cf.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18367 In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: >Well, your first mistake was probably in reading the "Tolkien >Companion." (this _is_ one of David Day's books, right?) People have >posted quite a few examples in which Day clearly invented details >that do not appear in Tolkien's writings, none of which are ever >labeled. It's actually by J. E. A. Tyler, although I don't think I've heard anything good about her either. Breathe Peace PB "... the essence of myth [is] that it have no taint of allegory to the maker and yet should suggest incipient allegories to the reader..." C. S. Lewis, having read "The Lay of Leithian" ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Lines: 40 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 04 May 2000 14:10:03 GMT References: <6tu1hs0g4tm1nit12hftoab2q7ol79r320@4ax.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000504101003.09048.00002992@nso-cm.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18366 In article <6tu1hs0g4tm1nit12hftoab2q7ol79r320@4ax.com>, the softrat writes: >>> I thought Thranduil was a silvan and that >>>Celeborn a sindar elf? >> >>Actually, they are both Sindar. Thranduil's father (forgot his name) was an >>elf of Doriath who emigrated east after the fall of Doriath and Beleriand >and >>took up rule of the Silvan elves living in Greenwood (later Mirkwood). >>Therefore it was a Silvan realm ruled by Sindar. It's likely, though I do >not >>think stated that Thranduil's father was somehow related to the Telerin >royal >>house but not too high up. I doubt some garden variety Sindarin refugee >from >>Beleriand could rise to be king of a major Silvan realm. Maybe he was >>Nimloth's brother and so Celeborn's nephew. Anyway, Thranduil's father was >>killed in the War of the Last Alliance and Thranduil became king. >> >Apparently, as revealed in UT, JRRT had the intention of rewriting >Celeborn's biography to make him a Teler of Aman with the >(unfortunate) name of Teleporno, meaning 'silver-tall' in Telerin. I >guess that Tolkien could not accept that Galadriel would marry a mere >Sinda. Personally I find these changes distasteful. I hope that >Tolkien would ultimately have rejected them as he did with the >projected changes to the cosmology of Arda described in HoME. > Yeah. I knew about those possible changes but I think at the time of Tolkien's death, his theories about Galadriel and Celeborn were much more in a state of flux than his ideas on cosmology. With the cosmology, he had developed a pretty consistent outline, even if the details weren't filled in. On the other had, he never really settled on a line of thought regarding Galadriel and Celeborn and the writings were very sketchy. For that reason, I tend to go with the more established texts on Galadirel and Celeborn but give more weight to the later cosmological texts. Just my opinion, but there it is. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 04 May 2000 14:13:53 GMT References: <6tu1hs0g4tm1nit12hftoab2q7ol79r320@4ax.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000504101353.09048.00002993@nso-cm.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!esel!cosy.sbg.ac.at!news-hog.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18369 In article <6tu1hs0g4tm1nit12hftoab2q7ol79r320@4ax.com>, McREsq writes: >Yeah. I knew about those possible changes but I think at the time of >Tolkien's death, his theories about Galadriel and Celeborn were much more in >a state of flux than his ideas on cosmology. With the cosmology, he had >developed a pretty consistent outline, even if the details weren't filled in. >On the other had, he never really settled on a line of thought regarding >Galadriel and Celeborn and the writings were very sketchy. For that reason, >I tend to go with the more established texts on Galadirel and Celeborn but >give more weight to the later cosmological texts. Just my opinion, but there >it is. > > Another problem with Celeborn coming from Alqualonde is that the LOTR states he is a kinsman of Thingol. If Celeborn comes from Alqualonde instead of Beleriand, that would probably mean that he is descended from Olwe, rather than Elmo. However, Galadriel's mother was Earwen, Olwe's daughter, making any pairing troubling from a genetic standpoint. Russ ###### From: "David Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000504005707.07547.00003209@nso-cf.aol.com> Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 11:53:48 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.18.29.143 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 957455084 209.18.29.143 (Thu, 04 May 2000 11:44:44 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 11:44:44 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18329 PaulB wrote in message news:20000504005707.07547.00003209@nso-cf.aol.com... > In article , sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard > Jensen) writes: > > >Well, your first mistake was probably in reading the "Tolkien > >Companion." (this _is_ one of David Day's books, right?) People have > >posted quite a few examples in which Day clearly invented details > >that do not appear in Tolkien's writings, none of which are ever > >labeled. > > It's actually by J. E. A. Tyler, although I don't think I've heard anything > good about her either. The interesting thing about the "Tolkien Companion" is that it is written from the view-point of a Gondorian scribe - thus extending Tolkien's "translator" device. However there are problems with the book, the most glaring problem is that a lot of information in it is out-dated. Dave ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Date: 04 May 2000 22:59:55 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 31 Message-ID: <6un1m6ghf8.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <6tu1hs0g4tm1nit12hftoab2q7ol79r320@4ax.com> <20000504101353.09048.00002993@nso-cm.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 957473998 678 10.0.3.2 (4 May 2000 20:59:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 May 2000 20:59:58 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18399 mcresq@aol.com (Russ) writes: > Another problem with Celeborn coming from Alqualonde is that the LOTR states he > is a kinsman of Thingol. If Celeborn comes from Alqualonde instead of > Beleriand, that would probably mean that he is descended from Olwe, rather than > Elmo. As is said in UT, IIRC. > However, Galadriel's mother was Earwen, Olwe's daughter, making any > pairing troubling from a genetic standpoint. Yes. I suspect, he would have had to make Galadriel an pure Noldo/Vanya without Teler in her (hmm, where did that silver-gold hair go?) and then make her union with Celeborn the complete mixing of the 3 kindreds. Then there is the whole problem of why and how them getting to ME. Not to mention losing the background to the "redemption by not taking the ring" by Galadriel in LoTR, which is one of my favourite scenes. Like softrat, I dislike this change strongly. I wonder if the shock of recognising the consequences is what killed him a month later? -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### From: Eruadan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 19:46:41 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8esk2q$mji$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20000504005707.07547.00003209@nso-cf.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.239.8.77 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu May 04 19:46:41 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (WinNT; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x32.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 129.239.8.77 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDeruadan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18439 In article , "David Lind" wrote: > The interesting thing about the "Tolkien Companion" is that it is written > from the view-point of a Gondorian scribe - thus extending Tolkien's > "translator" device. However there are problems with the book, the most > glaring problem is that a lot of information in it is out-dated. I know there were two editions - one pre Silmarillion and one post S. I picked up a new copy of the first cheap, just before TS came out. So, I kept it on the bookshelf as a curiousity. But I never rely on it. Eruadan -- <*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*> Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, because to them you are small, insignificant, and taste good with ketchup Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "Leon Moore" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 22:19:20 +0100 Organization: [ posted via UKOnline ] Lines: 24 Message-ID: <8esptr$f2g$1@apple.news.easynet.net> References: <20000504005707.07547.00003209@nso-cf.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tnt-9-55.easynet.co.uk X-Trace: apple.news.easynet.net 957475579 15440 195.40.198.55 (4 May 2000 21:26:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@ukonline.net NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 May 2000 21:26:19 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.icl.net!colt.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!easynet-uk!easynet.net!apple.news.easynet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18491 I'll remember not to use 'the companion' as a reference. I picked up the book in a second hand store while purchasing the Silmarillion (1977, george allen and unwin,). Incidently the sil has a fold out handrawn map of beleriand, which was a nice surprise. > It's actually by J. E. A. Tyler, although I don't think I've heard anything > good about her either. Its not full of revelations and burning insight, but there are some interesting maps showing the battle of the pelennor fields. Leon 'The quarrying Mr Tyler has done in the books of our hero rivals the work of the Dwarves in the mithril-mines of moria.' BERNARD LEVIN, OBSERVER 'Fascinating.....for a Tolkien addict it is a must.' YORKSHIRE POST ;) ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Lines: 37 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 05 May 2000 00:48:57 GMT References: <6un1m6ghf8.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000504204857.08158.00012295@nso-cg.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18475 In article <6un1m6ghf8.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin writes: >> Another problem with Celeborn coming from Alqualonde is that the LOTR >states he >> is a kinsman of Thingol. If Celeborn comes from Alqualonde instead of >> Beleriand, that would probably mean that he is descended from Olwe, rather >than >> Elmo. > >As is said in UT, IIRC. As I always say, great minds think alike. Of course, there's the room full of monkeys with typewriters that given a thousand years will type out the complete works of Sheaspeare. But I prefer the former. >> However, Galadriel's mother was Earwen, Olwe's daughter, making any >> pairing troubling from a genetic standpoint. > >Yes. I suspect, he would have had to make Galadriel an pure Noldo/Vanya >without Teler in her (hmm, where did that silver-gold hair go?) and >then make her union with Celeborn the complete mixing of the 3 kindreds. > >Then there is the whole problem of why and how them getting to ME. > >Not to mention losing the background to the "redemption by not taking >the ring" by Galadriel in LoTR, which is one of my favourite scenes. > >Like softrat, I dislike this change strongly. I wonder if the shock of >recognising the consequences is what killed him a month later? Oh...that's mean. Russ ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <6tu1hs0g4tm1nit12hftoab2q7ol79r320@4ax.com> <20000504101353.09048.00002993@nso-cm.aol.com> Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Lines: 26 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: <9GxQ4.2$qd2.353@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 21:13:43 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.141.213.83 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 957523717 206.141.213.83 (Fri, 05 May 2000 06:48:37 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 06:48:37 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18516 Russ wrote in message news:20000504101353.09048.00002993@nso-cm.aol.com... > Another problem with Celeborn coming from Alqualonde is that the LOTR states > he is a kinsman of Thingol. If Celeborn comes from Alqualonde instead of > Beleriand, that would probably mean that he is descended from Olwe, rather than > Elmo. What of it ? In the last account of G & C Celeborn is said to be Olwe's grandson. Whether descended from Olwe or Elmo Celeborn would still be a kinsman of Thingol. > However, Galadriel's mother was Earwen, Olwe's daughter, making any > pairing troubling from a genetic standpoint. This is true, but... (there are always one or two 'buts' in Tolkien exegesis) neither Earwen nor her relationship to Olwe had appeared in print. This relationship could have been changed in any way that Tolkien would have liked. Dave ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 22:45:07 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 10 Message-ID: <26732-391235B3-59@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAvfg5yWXtGiRrI5VR1MyC7rKj69cCFEZAir7vUSGlA7NvMl6OK5swaV+q Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!CensurBot.NetScum.Dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18421 Steuard Jensen wrote: >I think the Sindarin story is pretty >convincingly the most canonical. I would agree, on the ground that it is (or that it seems at any rate) the most developed of all his backgrounds. --Dave ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 22:49:24 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 16 Message-ID: <26733-391236B4-25@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <20000504101353.09048.00002993@nso-cm.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhUAoz5ExnQvd7Ai543TZhOrniAhgR0CFCQ/qUb6nfA19cbXdYOyWh6ofuis Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!CensurBot.NetScum.Dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18419 Russ wrote: >Another problem with Celeborn coming >from Alqualonde is that the LOTR states >he is a kinsman of Thingol. If Celeborn >comes from Alqualonde instead of >Beleriand, that would probably mean that >he is descended from Olwe Well, considering that Thingol and Olwe were brothers, that would still make Celebore a kinsman of Thingol. Oh, and BTW, that typo was intentional. --Dave ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 16:08:12 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 39 Message-ID: <8euh4s$31p$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <6tu1hs0g4tm1nit12hftoab2q7ol79r320@4ax.com> <20000504101353.09048.00002993@nso-cm.aol.com> <9GxQ4.2$qd2.353@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-a151.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 957532124 3129 212.205.240.151 (5 May 2000 13:08:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 May 2000 13:08:44 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18462 Dave Lind wrote in message news:9GxQ4.2$qd2.353@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net... > > > Russ wrote in message > news:20000504101353.09048.00002993@nso-cm.aol.com... > > Another problem with Celeborn coming from Alqualonde is that the LOTR > states > he is a kinsman of Thingol. If Celeborn comes from Alqualonde > instead of > > Beleriand, that would probably mean that he is descended from Olwe, rather > than > > Elmo. > > What of it ? In the last account of G & C Celeborn is said to be Olwe's > grandson. Whether descended from Olwe or Elmo Celeborn would still be a > kinsman of Thingol. > > > However, Galadriel's mother was Earwen, Olwe's daughter, making any > > pairing troubling from a genetic standpoint. > > This is true, but... (there are always one or two 'buts' in Tolkien > exegesis) neither Earwen nor her relationship to Olwe had appeared in print. > This relationship could have been changed in any way that Tolkien would have > liked. That Galadriel was a sister to Finrod had however appeared. Ofcourse Tolkien could have changed the parentage of Earwen, but that would mean that the children of Finarfin had no longer a kinship with Thingol which would in turn change other important aspects of the story... Aris Katsaris ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 05 May 2000 14:34:01 GMT References: <26733-391236B4-25@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000505103401.17588.00003043@nso-fk.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18470 In article <26733-391236B4-25@storefull-252.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) writes: >>Another problem with Celeborn coming >>from Alqualonde is that the LOTR states >>he is a kinsman of Thingol. If Celeborn >>comes from Alqualonde instead of >>Beleriand, that would probably mean that >>he is descended from Olwe > >Well, considering that Thingol and Olwe were brothers, that would still >make Celebore a kinsman of Thingol. > >Oh, and BTW, that typo was intentional. But you missed my point. Galadriel was also descended from Olwe (her mother was Earwen, Olwe's daughter). So if Celeborn was also descended from Olwe, we'd have a little incest problem because they'd be first cousins. (Actually, that might explain why Celebrian was so touchy after meeting the orcs in the Misty Mountains) However, if Celeborn stays as a Sindarin elf descended from Elmo, then Galdriel and Celeborn are second cousins instead of first cousins. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Lines: 44 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 05 May 2000 14:34:01 GMT References: <9GxQ4.2$qd2.353@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000505103401.17588.00003044@nso-fk.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18471 In article <9GxQ4.2$qd2.353@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net>, "Dave Lind" writes: >Russ wrote in message >news:20000504101353.09048.00002993@nso-cm.aol.com... >> Another problem with Celeborn coming from Alqualonde is that the LOTR >states > he is a kinsman of Thingol. If Celeborn comes from Alqualonde >instead of >> Beleriand, that would probably mean that he is descended from Olwe, rather >than >> Elmo. > >What of it ? In the last account of G & C Celeborn is said to be Olwe's >grandson. Whether descended from Olwe or Elmo Celeborn would still be a >kinsman of Thingol. Right, but descended from Elmo he would not be Galadriel's first cousin. > >> However, Galadriel's mother was Earwen, Olwe's daughter, making any >> pairing troubling from a genetic standpoint. > >This is true, but... (there are always one or two 'buts' in Tolkien >exegesis) neither Earwen nor her relationship to Olwe had appeared in print. What do you mean never appeared in print? If you mean during his lifetime, I believe the Road Goes Ever On was published during JRRT's lifetime. >This relationship could have been changed in any way that Tolkien would have >liked. That's a problematic change. App. B of LOTR identifies her as sisiter of Finrod Felagund, so his lineage would have to be changed also. Galadriel sort of has to remain a grandaughter of Olwe because it is that connection - her kinship with her granduncle Thingol - that gets her into Doriath. I doubt Tolkien would make such a drastic change in Galadriel's (and Finrod's) lineage just to transform Celeborn into a Telerin, rather than Sindarin prince. And I cannot see how Tolkien would allow first cousins to marry - heck, even them being second cousins gives me the heebie-jeebies. Russ ###### From: Julie Lim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 15:48:17 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 33 Message-ID: <8euqfr$3sp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <9GxQ4.2$qd2.353@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <20000505103401.17588.00003044@nso-fk.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.167.40.120 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri May 05 15:48:17 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.08 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x26.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 141.167.40.120 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDwombat1138 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!howland.erols.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18442 In article <20000505103401.17588.00003044@nso-fk.aol.com>, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: > That's a problematic change. App. B of LOTR identifies her as sisiter of > Finrod Felagund, so his lineage would have to be changed also. Galadriel sort > of has to remain a grandaughter of Olwe because it is that connection - her > kinship with her granduncle Thingol - that gets her into Doriath. I doubt > Tolkien would make such a drastic change in Galadriel's (and Finrod's) lineage > just to transform Celeborn into a Telerin, rather than Sindarin prince. And I > cannot see how Tolkien would allow first cousins to marry - heck, even them > being second cousins gives me the heebie-jeebies. He "allowed" at least one set of first cousins to marry: Tar-Miriel and Ar-Pharazon. However, he also indicated that this was a Bad Thing, from perspectives both internal and external to the narrative. Maeglin's crush on his first cousin Idril was similarly viewed as a Bad Thing. I suppose that Arwen and Aragorn don't count in this reckoning, since their first-cousin status is removed some fifty times. -- ('^, * wombat.1138@yahoo.com (NB: my real username has no dot) * Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "David Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <6tu1hs0g4tm1nit12hftoab2q7ol79r320@4ax.com> <20000504101353.09048.00002993@nso-cm.aol.com> <9GxQ4.2$qd2.353@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <8euh4s$31p$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Lines: 18 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: <7lEQ4.19$qd2.4407@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 13:28:48 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.141.211.250 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 957551043 206.141.211.250 (Fri, 05 May 2000 14:24:03 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 14:24:03 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!iol.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18406 Aris Katsaris wrote in message news:8euh4s$31p$1@newssrv.otenet.gr... > > That Galadriel was a sister to Finrod had however appeared. > Ofcourse Tolkien could have changed the parentage of Earwen, > but that would mean that the children of Finarfin had no longer > a kinship with Thingol which would in turn change other > important aspects of the story... > Not nessessarly. Galadriel would still be related to Thingol, albeit by marrage, and the status of her brothers, who had no part in the Kinslaying, would not nessessarly change either. Dave ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Lines: 17 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 05 May 2000 18:13:56 GMT References: <8euqfr$3sp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000505141356.12720.00002843@nso-fa.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!triton.skycache.com!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18467 In article <8euqfr$3sp$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Julie Lim writes: >He "allowed" at least one set of first cousins to marry: Tar-Miriel and >Ar-Pharazon. However, he also indicated that this was a Bad Thing, from >perspectives both internal and external to the narrative. Maeglin's >crush on his first cousin Idril was similarly viewed as a Bad Thing. > >I suppose that Arwen and Aragorn don't count in this reckoning, since >their first-cousin status is removed some fifty times. > Right. That's the point - it's, as you say, a Bad Thing. Tolkien would not let *Galadriel* be involved in such a Bad Thing. Russ ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 05 May 2000 19:41:49 GMT References: <7lEQ4.19$qd2.4407@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000505154149.08333.00003227@nso-fp.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsmaster-01.atnet.at!atnet.at!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18476 In article <7lEQ4.19$qd2.4407@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net>, "David Lind" writes: >> That Galadriel was a sister to Finrod had however appeared. >> Ofcourse Tolkien could have changed the parentage of Earwen, >> but that would mean that the children of Finarfin had no longer >> a kinship with Thingol which would in turn change other >> important aspects of the story... >> > >Not nessessarly. Galadriel would still be related to Thingol, albeit by >marrage, and the status of her brothers, who had no part in the Kinslaying, >would not nessessarly change either. > Did Tolkien ever use the term "kinsman" to refer to an "in-law" rather than blood relationship? Russ ###### From: "David Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9GxQ4.2$qd2.353@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <20000505103401.17588.00003044@nso-fk.aol.com> Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Lines: 73 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 15:50:19 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.141.213.9 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 957557449 206.141.213.9 (Fri, 05 May 2000 16:10:49 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 16:10:49 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18409 Russ wrote in message news:20000505103401.17588.00003044@nso-fk.aol.com... > In article <9GxQ4.2$qd2.353@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net>, "Dave Lind" > writes: > > >Russ wrote in message > >news:20000504101353.09048.00002993@nso-cm.aol.com... > >> Another problem with Celeborn coming from Alqualonde is that the LOTR > >states > he is a kinsman of Thingol. If Celeborn comes from Alqualonde > >instead of > >> Beleriand, that would probably mean that he is descended from Olwe, rather > >than > >> Elmo. > > > >What of it ? In the last account of G & C Celeborn is said to be Olwe's > >grandson. Whether descended from Olwe or Elmo Celeborn would still be a > >kinsman of Thingol. > > Right, but descended from Elmo he would not be Galadriel's first cousin. > > > > >> However, Galadriel's mother was Earwen, Olwe's daughter, making any > >> pairing troubling from a genetic standpoint. > > > >This is true, but... (there are always one or two 'buts' in Tolkien > >exegesis) neither Earwen nor her relationship to Olwe had appeared in print. > > What do you mean never appeared in print? If you mean during his lifetime, I > believe the Road Goes Ever On was published during JRRT's lifetime. I mean Earwen is not mentioned in RGEO or in LOTR. It would have been easy to change Earwen into a more distant relative of Olwe. > > >This relationship could have been changed in any way that Tolkien would have > >liked. > > That's a problematic change. App. B of LOTR identifies her as sisiter of > Finrod Felagund, so his lineage would have to be changed also. Galadriel sort > of has to remain a grandaughter of Olwe because it is that connection - her > kinship with her granduncle Thingol - that gets her into Doriath. I doubt > Tolkien would make such a drastic change in Galadriel's (and Finrod's) lineage > just to transform Celeborn into a Telerin, rather than Sindarin prince. And I > cannot see how Tolkien would allow first cousins to marry - heck, even them > being second cousins gives me the heebie-jeebies. Before The Silmarillion was published we knew two thing regarding Galadriel's relatives, her father was Finarfin, and her brother was Finrod. We knew one thing about Celeborn, he was a "kinsman" of Thingol. All other relations including Galadriel's mother and Celeborn's parents, could have been altered to fit Celeborn's new position as Olwe's grandson. I'm not argueing a change on the paternal side of Galadriel's family tree since that side is more or less fixed. But Galadriel has two parents. One of them had not appeared in print during Tolkien's lifetime. Galadriel could just as easily have gotten into Doriath through her husband, Thingol's grand-nephew (or something like that). Earwen need not be the daughter of Olwe. This is the relationship that I said JRRT could have changed. Dave ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Date: 05 May 2000 23:52:44 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 28 Message-ID: <6u4s8cu0k3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <9GxQ4.2$qd2.353@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <20000505103401.17588.00003044@nso-fk.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 957563565 856 10.0.3.2 (5 May 2000 21:52:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 May 2000 21:52:45 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18519 "David Lind" writes: > Russ wrote in message > news:20000505103401.17588.00003044@nso-fk.aol.com... > > > > Finrod Felagund, so his lineage would have to be changed also. Galadriel > sort > > of has to remain a grandaughter of Olwe because it is that connection - > her > > kinship with her granduncle Thingol - that gets her into Doriath. > > them had not appeared in print during Tolkien's lifetime. Galadriel could > just as easily have gotten into Doriath through her husband, Thingol's > grand-nephew (or something like that). No. Because she only became his wife after meeting him, which happened IIRC in Doriath. She had to first get in to do that. And without her and her brother getting in Thingol would have never heard of Alqualonde, no banning of the Feanorans, no not helping them, the whole plot desintegrates. Yikes! -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Lines: 47 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 06 May 2000 00:14:11 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000505201411.00689.00012041@nso-ch.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!HSNX.atgi.net!mtu.ru!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!cyclone1.usenetserver.com!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18555 In article , "David Lind" writes: >Before The Silmarillion was published we knew two thing regarding >Galadriel's relatives, her father was Finarfin, and her brother was Finrod. >We knew one thing about Celeborn, he was a "kinsman" of Thingol. All other >relations including Galadriel's mother and Celeborn's parents, could have >been altered to fit Celeborn's new position as Olwe's grandson. > >I'm not argueing a change on the paternal side of Galadriel's family tree >since that side is more or less fixed. But Galadriel has two parents. One of >them had not appeared in print during Tolkien's lifetime. Galadriel could >just as easily have gotten into Doriath through her husband, Thingol's >grand-nephew (or something like that). Earwen need not be the daughter of >Olwe. This is the relationship that I said JRRT could have changed. The only reason to play with Galadriel's heritage is to avoid she and Celeborn being first cousins. This would only arise if they were both grandchildren of Olwe. However, Celeborn as a Sindarin Elf did appear in print in the Road Goes Ever On. That pretty much means he had to remain a descendant of Elmo and not of Olwe unless Tolkien was going to contradict something that already appeared in print. If he were to forge ahead and make Galadriel's and her sibling's mother someone other than a daughter of Olwe, he'd have to change Galariel and Finrod's lineage, which had been in place for decades and he'd have to abandon the idea that Galadriel and her siblings were blood kinsmen of Thingol, which had been in place for decades. These are no simple changes. Even accepting that Galadriel would still be let into Doriath, simply as Celeborn's wife - i.e. as an "in-law" - the change of lineage would mean far more than that. Remember that Nargothrond was revealed by Thingol to Finrod because he was kin - he was Thingol's grand-nephew. Under the scenario you paint its a far different thing: It's one thing to believe that Thingol would allow his grand-nephew Celeborn's Noldorin wife into Doriath, it's quite another thing to believe that he'd reveal such things as Nargothrond to his grand-nephew's brother-in-law. It also changes completely Beren's connection to Doriath and Thingol's family. Instead of Beren coming from a loyal and respected vassal of his blood kin, he becomes simply some unknown retainer of his grand-nephew's in-laws. All this so Celeborn could become a Teleri? I highly doubt it. The idea of a Telerin Celeborn appeared out of nowhere in the last month of his life. I doubt he's make the massive changes necessary to fit that in for such a minor character. Russ ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7lEQ4.19$qd2.4407@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <20000505154149.08333.00003227@nso-fp.aol.com> Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Lines: 31 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 21:16:39 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.18.27.91 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 957575538 209.18.27.91 (Fri, 05 May 2000 21:12:18 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 21:12:18 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18527 Russ wrote in message news:20000505154149.08333.00003227@nso-fp.aol.com... > In article <7lEQ4.19$qd2.4407@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net>, "David Lind" > writes: > > >> That Galadriel was a sister to Finrod had however appeared. > >> Ofcourse Tolkien could have changed the parentage of Earwen, > >> but that would mean that the children of Finarfin had no longer > >> a kinship with Thingol which would in turn change other > >> important aspects of the story... > >> > > > >Not nessessarly. Galadriel would still be related to Thingol, albeit by > >marrage, and the status of her brothers, who had no part in the Kinslaying, > >would not nessessarly change either. > > > > Did Tolkien ever use the term "kinsman" to refer to an "in-law" rather than > blood relationship? I don't know. Aerin Hurin's kinswoman comes to mind, but her kinship isn't explained IIRC. Dave ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000505201411.00689.00012041@nso-ch.aol.com> Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Lines: 24 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: <6FKQ4.45$qd2.7471@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 21:39:20 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.18.27.91 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 957576898 209.18.27.91 (Fri, 05 May 2000 21:34:58 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 21:34:58 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!triton.skycache.com!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!63.208.208.143!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!206.141.251.3!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18523 Russ wrote in message news:20000505201411.00689.00012041@nso-ch.aol.com... > > All this so Celeborn could become a Teleri? I highly doubt it. The idea of a > Telerin Celeborn appeared out of nowhere in the last month of his life. I > doubt he's make the massive changes necessary to fit that in for such a minor > character. Celeborn was not made a Telerin Elf in the last month of JRRT's life. The idea appears in the "Shibboleth of Feanor" which dates from about 1968, at least three years before he died. In that text Celeborn is called "of the Teleri" and his relationship to Thingol is unexplained. Heck, he may still be a grandson of Elmo at this stage who crossed the Great Sea with his grand uncle Olwe (this is just an unlikely dumb idea that occurred to me right now, but it goes to show that there were a wide variety of ways Tolkien could have chosen to get around the first cousin problem). Dave ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Lines: 65 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 06 May 2000 03:54:17 GMT References: <6FKQ4.45$qd2.7471@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000505235417.08158.00012680@nso-cg.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18558 In article <6FKQ4.45$qd2.7471@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net>, "Dave Lind" writes: >> >> All this so Celeborn could become a Teleri? I highly doubt it. The idea >of a >> Telerin Celeborn appeared out of nowhere in the last month of his life. I >> doubt he's make the massive changes necessary to fit that in for such a >minor >> character. > >Celeborn was not made a Telerin Elf in the last month of JRRT's life. The >idea appears in the "Shibboleth of Feanor" which dates from about 1968, at >least three years before he died. Well, technically, the paper that he wrote that on came from Allen and Unwin in 1968. That doesn't mean that he actually wrote the text on the obverse side that year. But the point is nevertheless made: the idea was out there at least a couple of years before his death. In that text Celeborn is called "of the >Teleri" and his relationship to Thingol is unexplained. Well, his kinsman of Thngol status is cannonically stated in LOTR so that's there to stay. However, as I'm sure you know, in Shibboleth, Tolkien also writes that Earwen was daughter of Olwe. Gotta take the good with the bad. So the question is, is push ever came to shove, would Tolkien have kept his idea of a Telerin Celeborn who *had* to be a kinsman of Thingol? I don't think so. Heck, he may still >be a grandson of Elmo at this stage who crossed the Great Sea with his grand >uncle Olwe (this is just an unlikely dumb idea that occurred to me right >now, but it goes to show that there were a wide variety of ways Tolkien >could have chosen to get around the first cousin problem). But that scenario is the only one (that I can think of) that keeps all things consistent. Two assumptions must remain in place, IMO: 1) Celeborn has to be a kinsman of Thingol - that's in LOTR; and 2) Galadriel and Celeborn cannot be first cousins. How can those two remain and Celeborn be a Telerin rather than a Sindarin prince. He *could* make Earwen a daughter of some other Teleri and not Olwe, but that raises the plot problems I pointed out in my previous message: why would Thingol tell his grandnephew's brother-in-law about Nargothrond. And it would change Beren's relationship to Thingol and Doriath when he comes before the throne. And it would make Galadriel's brother's appearances in Doriath as something of a joke - as brothers of an in-law rather than kinsmen themselves. In the end, it seems to me that Celeborn's status was besides the point. What Tolkien was reworking was Galadriel's position, not Celeborn's. Celeborn was along for the ride. Tolkien appeared to have wanted to make Galariel more of a Madonna figure so he had to separate her more cleanly from the Feanorean revolt. Thus, Galadriel's actions at the Mirror became less of a redemptive act for past sins, and more like Jesus resisting temptation by the devil in the desert. That could be done without changing Celeborn's lineage and intoducing so many plot holes that needed to be plugged. And by leaving Celeborn's lineage as is he wouldn't have to contradict the published Road Goes Ever On or contradict him implication that he was kin to the Sinda Thranduil when he greeted Legolas. If we're debating what *could* Tolkien have done, then sure, he could have engineered a cludgy solution. But if we're debating what the likely outcome would be then I think Celeborn's lineage would have been left intact. Russ ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 00:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 14 Message-ID: <14888-3913A54B-57@storefull-255.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <20000505103401.17588.00003043@nso-fk.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhQFB3nobI37Z5p3R/p9UsDXOVe9xgIUHcXQ3kID/J7rtSSlNYhYC2+tS8w= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newsmaster-01.atnet.at!atnet.at!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!panix!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18539 Russ wrote: >But you missed my point. Galadriel was >also descended from Olwe (her mother >was Earwen, Olwe's daughter). So if >Celeborn was also descended from >Olwe, we'd have a little incest problem >because they'd be first cousins. Good point. However, I was only really talking about Celeborn, not Galadriel. --Dave ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <6FKQ4.45$qd2.7471@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <20000505235417.08158.00012680@nso-cg.aol.com> Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Lines: 111 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 09:07:27 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.141.211.230 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 957618650 206.141.211.230 (Sat, 06 May 2000 09:10:50 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 09:10:50 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18528 Russ wrote in message news:20000505235417.08158.00012680@nso-cg.aol.com... > In article <6FKQ4.45$qd2.7471@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net>, "Dave Lind" > writes: > > > In that text Celeborn is called "of the > >Teleri" and his relationship to Thingol is unexplained. > > Well, his kinsman of Thngol status is cannonically stated in LOTR so that's > there to stay. However, as I'm sure you know, in Shibboleth, Tolkien also > writes that Earwen was daughter of Olwe. Gotta take the good with the bad. So > the question is, is push ever came to shove, would Tolkien have kept his idea > of a Telerin Celeborn who *had* to be a kinsman of Thingol? I don't think so. You missed my point. I should have said: Celeborn was called "of the Teleri" but the *exact* nature of his kinship to Thingol was not stated. > > Heck, he may still > >be a grandson of Elmo at this stage who crossed the Great Sea with his grand > >uncle Olwe (this is just an unlikely dumb idea that occurred to me right > >now, but it goes to show that there were a wide variety of ways Tolkien > >could have chosen to get around the first cousin problem). > > But that scenario is the only one (that I can think of) that keeps all things > consistent. Two assumptions must remain in place, IMO: 1) Celeborn has to be a > kinsman of Thingol - that's in LOTR; and 2) Galadriel and Celeborn cannot be > first cousins. I agree. > > How can those two remain and Celeborn be a Telerin rather than a Sindarin > prince. He *could* make Earwen a daughter of some other Teleri and not Olwe, > but that raises the plot problems I pointed out in my previous message: why > would Thingol tell his grandnephew's brother-in-law about Nargothrond. Why not? Thingol was not stupid. He knew that he could not stand alone against Morgoth. He would not deal with the Feanorians and some of the Fingolfinians were involved in the Kinslaying. Better to have the Finarfinians on his side than nobody. > And it > would change Beren's relationship to Thingol and Doriath when he comes before > the throne. I don't follow you here. Barahir was allied with Finrod but that didn't affect Thingol attitude toward Beren in the least. "A father's deeds, even had his service been rendered to me, avail not to win the daughter of Thingol and Melian." > And it would make Galadriel's brother's appearances in Doriath as > something of a joke - as brothers of an in-law rather than kinsmen themselves. It could just as easily be interpreted that Galadriel was honored by Thingol to the extent that he rises above his prejudice against all the Noldor and allows her kin inside the Girdle only to find that he likes them. Tolkien would have very little rewriting to do in this regard. > In the end, it seems to me that Celeborn's status was besides the point. What > Tolkien was reworking was Galadriel's position, not Celeborn's. Celeborn was > along for the ride. Tolkien appeared to have wanted to make Galariel more of a > Madonna figure so he had to separate her more cleanly from the Feanorean > revolt. Thus, Galadriel's actions at the Mirror became less of a redemptive > act for past sins, and more like Jesus resisting temptation by the devil in the > desert. That could be done without changing Celeborn's lineage and intoducing > so many plot holes that needed to be plugged. And by leaving Celeborn's > lineage as is he wouldn't have to contradict the published Road Goes Ever On or > contradict him implication that he was kin to the Sinda Thranduil when he > greeted Legolas. I've always taken that to mean they were both of the "kindred" of the Sindar, not that they were related by blood. > If we're debating what *could* Tolkien have done, then sure, he could have > engineered a cludgy solution. But if we're debating what the likely outcome > would be then I think Celeborn's lineage would have been left intact. I can't argue with your logic here, especially since Galadriel was the subject of these writings and as you say "Celeborn was along for the ride". In the "what if" game there are all kinds of possibilities but very few are relevant to the authors intention. We'll just have to agree that the account in _The Silmarillion_ is the only possible one that Christopher Tolkien could have adopted without rearranging the Telerian family tree and rewriting the relevant passages himself. That doesn't mean however that I accept it as canonical. :-) Dave ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Date: 06 May 2000 23:54:36 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 69 Message-ID: <6u3dnvfioz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <6FKQ4.45$qd2.7471@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <20000505235417.08158.00012680@nso-cg.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 957650079 848 10.0.3.2 (6 May 2000 21:54:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 6 May 2000 21:54:39 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18587 mcresq@aol.com (Russ) writes: > In article <6FKQ4.45$qd2.7471@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net>, "Dave Lind" > writes: > > >> All this so Celeborn could become a Teleri? I highly doubt it. Celeborn in all versions is a Teler, he never was a Noldo (unless you look at the pre-LoTR "Nandor are Noldor" stuff) or Vanya. He changed in UT from Nando to Sinda to Falmar (Teler of Aman/Alqualonde), but all 3 of these are Telerin Elves. > In that text Celeborn is called "of the > >Teleri" and his relationship to Thingol is unexplained. > > Well, his kinsman of Thngol status is cannonically stated in LOTR so that's > there to stay. That was never changed. The late change was Sindar to Falmari. He is still Teler, and so kin to Thingol (as of the same of the 3 kins of Elves). > but that raises the plot problems I pointed out in my previous message: why > would Thingol tell his grandnephew's brother-in-law about > Nargothrond. This point remains. Which is why I also dislike the Celeborn as Falmari Version. Galadriel must stay related to Thingol, and so to Olwe. That makes it impossible for Celeborn to be an Olwe-descendant. Celeborn as an Elmo descendant who went to Aman would be possible. > In the end, it seems to me that Celeborn's status was besides the point. What > Tolkien was reworking was Galadriel's position, not Celeborn's. Celeborn was > along for the ride. But a ride with far larger consequences. Screwing up their marriage and so Galadriels and Finarfins (so long they remain siblings) relationship to Doriath, and so the entire Thingol vs Feanorans thing (and the Nargothrond stuff). I suppose we cold have Finarfin and Celeborn as brothers and Galadriel an married-to-Celeborn Noldo, but that is still drastic, and most likely pushes Galadriel out of the noble houses. > revolt. Thus, Galadriel's actions at the Mirror became less of a redemptive > act for past sins, and more like Jesus resisting temptation by the devil in he > desert. That could be done without changing Celeborn's lineage and intoducing > so many plot holes that needed to be plugged. But we here are discussing the moving of Celeborn to the Falmari. And that definitely would have disrupted large sections of the Silmarillion and conflicted LoTR and TRGEO. > engineered a cludgy solution. But if we're debating what the likely outcome > would be then I think Celeborn's lineage would have been left intact. That would have to stay. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <39152ed5.1749366@news.verio.net> References: <9GxQ4.2$qd2.353@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <20000505103401.17588.00003044@nso-fk.aol.com> <8euqfr$3sp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 16 Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 08:55:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.130 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 957689549 198.172.26.130 (Sun, 07 May 2000 08:52:29 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 08:52:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!triton.skycache.com!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!verio.MISMATCH!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18623 On Fri, 05 May 2000 15:48:17 GMT, Julie Lim wrote: >He "allowed" at least one set of first cousins to marry: Tar-Miriel and >Ar-Pharazon. However, he also indicated that this was a Bad Thing, from >perspectives both internal and external to the narrative. Maeglin's >crush on his first cousin Idril was similarly viewed as a Bad Thing. Yes, and he mentioned somewhere (I don't remember exactly where) that the Elves typically didn't allow first cousins to marry. He almost suggests that Aredhel might have considered marrying one of the sons of Feanor, but it's extremely vague (and arguably doesn't refer to marriage), and Feanor and Fingolfin aren't really brothers anyway. ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <39152fc7.1991955@news.verio.net> References: <20000505201411.00689.00012041@nso-ch.aol.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 23 Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 09:13:10 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.130 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 957690636 198.172.26.130 (Sun, 07 May 2000 09:10:36 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 09:10:36 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18624 On 06 May 2000 00:14:11 GMT, mcresq@aol.com (Russ) wrote: >The only reason to play with Galadriel's heritage is to avoid she and Celeborn >being first cousins. This would only arise if they were both grandchildren of >Olwe. However, Celeborn as a Sindarin Elf did appear in print in the Road >Goes Ever On. That pretty much means he had to remain a descendant of Elmo and >not of Olwe unless Tolkien was going to contradict something that already >appeared in print. Or unless one of Olwe's descendants stayed behind in Beleriand, in which case Olwe's family would include a line of Sindar. >If he were to forge ahead and make Galadriel's and her sibling's mother someone >other than a daughter of Olwe, he'd have to change Galariel and Finrod's >lineage, which had been in place for decades and he'd have to abandon the idea >that Galadriel and her siblings were blood kinsmen of Thingol, which had been >in place for decades. One important consequence of Finarfin's wife being the daughter of Olwe is that the Kinslaying becomes so much more significant for the children of Finarfin. Feanor didn't just attack the Teleri--he attacked their mother's people. This is important later. ###### From: Ermanna Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 07:41:31 -0400 Lines: 16 Message-ID: <3915566A.9458AC61@erols.com> References: <9GxQ4.2$qd2.353@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <20000505103401.17588.00003044@nso-fk.aol.com> <8euqfr$3sp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: DVfnO6e5s4FsuM8MeHY8lBItlYhPv5tpkus1vSyVtcA= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 7 May 2000 12:37:49 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18678 Julie Lim wrote: > one set of first cousins to marry: Tar-Miriel and > Ar-Pharazon. Didn't Ar-Pharazon force her? > ('^, * wombat.1138@yahoo.com (NB: my real username has no dot) * Ermanna the Elven Jedi Knight Elbereth Gilthoniel! ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 13:50:29 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3olbhsg8qkfalunmhpv2ncrd39qsclp4jl@4ax.com> References: <9GxQ4.2$qd2.353@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <20000505103401.17588.00003044@nso-fk.aol.com> <8euqfr$3sp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3915566A.9458AC61@erols.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18685 On Sun, 07 May 2000 07:41:31 -0400, Ermanna wrote: >Didn't Ar-Pharazon force her? IIRC, yup! the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Ah! But does a half-dead cat have Buddha Nature? ###### From: "David Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <9GxQ4.2$qd2.353@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <20000505103401.17588.00003044@nso-fk.aol.com> <6u4s8cu0k3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Lines: 35 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: <6iCR4.14$WA2.120@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 18:29:03 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.179.191.242 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 957804802 199.179.191.242 (Mon, 08 May 2000 12:53:22 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 12:53:22 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18847 Neil Franklin wrote in message news:6u4s8cu0k3.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch... > "David Lind" writes: > > > Russ wrote in message > > news:20000505103401.17588.00003044@nso-fk.aol.com... > > > > > > Finrod Felagund, so his lineage would have to be changed also. Galadriel > > sort > > > of has to remain a grandaughter of Olwe because it is that connection - > > her > > > kinship with her granduncle Thingol - that gets her into Doriath. > > > > them had not appeared in print during Tolkien's lifetime. Galadriel could > > just as easily have gotten into Doriath through her husband, Thingol's > > grand-nephew (or something like that). > > No. Because she only became his wife after meeting him, which happened > IIRC in Doriath. She had to first get in to do that. Nope. (Who said that?) We are talking about JRRT's last writing on the subject. In it Galadriel and Celeborn meet in Valinor. And just as a side issue, she could have meet Celeborn outside Doriath. In _The Silmarillion_ it's not mentioned were they met. Dave ###### From: Julie Lim Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 17:47:18 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 42 Message-ID: <8f6uj0$l49$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <9GxQ4.2$qd2.353@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <20000505103401.17588.00003044@nso-fk.aol.com> <8euqfr$3sp$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <3915566A.9458AC61@erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.167.40.120 X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon May 08 17:47:18 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.08 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x40.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 141.167.40.120 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDwombat1138 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18783 In article <3915566A.9458AC61@erols.com>, jsolinas@erols.com wrote: > > Julie Lim wrote: > > > one set of first cousins to marry: Tar-Miriel and > > Ar-Pharazon. > > Didn't Ar-Pharazon force her? Maybe :) IIRC the "polished" publications all suggest that he did. But there's a draft in one of the later volumes of HoME that outlines Miriel's early betrothal to Elentir, brother to Amandil of Andunie, until one day she saw Pharazon, fell in Lerv with him, and ditched Elentir pronto. According to this view, she would've thrown herself over to Pharazon's party whole-heartedly, voluntarily shared the throne with him, etc. But it would still end up as a Bad Thing. The thing is, though, I'm not sure whether first-cousinship btw Galadriel and Celeborn can nec'ly be ruled out on the grounds of Tolkien not letting good people do bad things. Arguably Hurin and his family were not Bad People per se, just under a heavy-duty bulk-purchase all-purpose bad-juju curse that caused them to haplessly do some Very Bad Things. However, there's also arguably no evidence that Galadriel was similarly cursed, or that her marriage to Celeborn led to grief for them or their immediate peers. Unless you count the eventual estrangements of Celebrian and Arwen from their families, but that's kinda tenuous. (Tangent-- I wonder about Celebrian's reception in Valinor. "Hullo, I'm your long-lost kinswoman, bearing the royal blood of the Teleri, the Noldor, and the Vanyar." "Hurrah!" "I came here because I was (er) tormented by orcs." (long pause) "Ack!") -- ('^, * wombat.1138@yahoo.com (NB: my real username has no dot) * Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Lines: 21 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 08 May 2000 19:21:02 GMT References: <6iCR4.14$WA2.120@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000508152102.09048.00003581@nso-cm.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18832 In article <6iCR4.14$WA2.120@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net>, "David Lind" writes: >Nope. (Who said that?) > >We are talking about JRRT's last writing on the subject. In it Galadriel and >Celeborn meet in Valinor. > >And just as a side issue, she could have meet Celeborn outside Doriath. In >_The Silmarillion_ it's not mentioned were they met. > Especially possible if Tolkien followed up on the idea that Galdriel left before the Revolt. While Thingol's core realm was Doriath, he was recognized as king over all Beleriand. And before the First Battle of Beleriand, there was no Girdle. So if Galriel arrived early enough, she might have met Celeborn in any one of a number of Sindarin settlemts in Beleriand or in pre-Girdle Doriath. Russ ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <7lEQ4.19$qd2.4407@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <20000505154149.08333.00003227@nso-fp.aol.com> Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Lines: 14 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 02:03:08 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.73.77 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 957837788 12.78.73.77 (Tue, 09 May 2000 02:03:08 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 02:03:08 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news-out.worldnet.att.net.MISMATCH!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters2!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18819 "Russ" wrote in message news:20000505154149.08333.00003227@nso-fp.aol.com... > Did Tolkien ever use the term "kinsman" to refer to an "in-law" > rather than blood relationship? Yes. Through Turgon at least; "Welcome kinsman, for so I hold you." Turgon's greeting to Eol Silm, Of Maeglin ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 19:27:38 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <7lEQ4.19$qd2.4407@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <20000505154149.08333.00003227@nso-fp.aol.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18848 On Tue, 09 May 2000 02:03:08 GMT, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: >"Russ" wrote in message >news:20000505154149.08333.00003227@nso-fp.aol.com... > >> Did Tolkien ever use the term "kinsman" to refer to an "in-law" >> rather than blood relationship? > >Yes. Through Turgon at least; > >"Welcome kinsman, for so I hold you." >Turgon's greeting to Eol >Silm, Of Maeglin > Uh, isn't Maeglin Turgon's nephew? You know, the son of his sister? the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Drugs cause amnesia and other things I can't remember... ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil References: <7lEQ4.19$qd2.4407@nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net> <20000505154149.08333.00003227@nso-fp.aol.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3tLR4.123$v3.2395@uchinews> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 957842367 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 08 May 2000 22:19:27 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 22:19:27 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 03:19:27 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18768 > >"Russ" wrote: > >> Did Tolkien ever use the term "kinsman" to refer to an "in-law" > >> rather than blood relationship? > wrote: > >Yes. Through Turgon at least; > >"Welcome kinsman, for so I hold you." > >Turgon's greeting to Eol > >Silm, Of Maeglin Quoth the softrat : > Uh, isn't Maeglin Turgon's nephew? You know, the son of his sister? Aaah! Can't... snip... anything. Ahem. Sorry 'bout that. Anyway, Conrad's point here is that Turgon is speaking to _Eol_ in this quote, Maeglin's father, the Dark Elf. Eol, of course, is not related to Turgon; "Of Maeglin" is the chapter title. Steuard Jensen ###### From: mcresq@aol.com (Russ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Celeborn & Thranduil Lines: 56 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 09 May 2000 12:27:01 GMT References: <6u3dnvfioz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000509082701.11398.00001096@nso-md.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news.nextra.ch!news1.sunrise.ch!news.imp.ch!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!triton.skycache.com!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18892 In article <6u3dnvfioz.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>, Neil Franklin writes: > >Celeborn in all versions is a Teler, he never was a Noldo (unless you >look at the pre-LoTR "Nandor are Noldor" stuff) or Vanya. > >He changed in UT from Nando to Sinda to Falmar (Teler of Aman/Alqualonde), >but all 3 of these are Telerin Elves. Right. I think it was understood that when we used the term Teleri we were referring to those who got on ships and headed west. But yes, technically, it refers to all elves of the third kindred. Referring to those Teleri in Aman simply as "Teleri" is imprecise but done all the time in the newsgroups. Sort of like referring to the Three Houses of Elf Friends simply as Edain. >> In that text Celeborn is called "of the >> >Teleri" and his relationship to Thingol is unexplained. >> >> Well, his kinsman of Thngol status is cannonically stated in LOTR so that's >> there to stay. > >That was never changed. The late change was Sindar to Falmari. He is >still Teler, and so kin to Thingol (as of the same of the 3 kins of Elves). I believe the term was used to indicate a true familial relationship - not just a racial relationship. >> but that raises the plot problems I pointed out in my previous message: why >> would Thingol tell his grandnephew's brother-in-law about >> Nargothrond. > >This point remains. Which is why I also dislike the Celeborn as >Falmari Version. Galadriel must stay related to Thingol, and so to >Olwe. That makes it impossible for Celeborn to be an Olwe-descendant. >Celeborn as an Elmo descendant who went to Aman would be possible. The latter is possible, but unlikely. >> In the end, it seems to me that Celeborn's status was besides the point. >What >> Tolkien was reworking was Galadriel's position, not Celeborn's. Celeborn >was >> along for the ride. > >But a ride with far larger consequences. Screwing up their marriage >and so Galadriels and Finarfins (so long they remain siblings) >relationship to Doriath, and so the entire Thingol vs Feanorans thing >(and the Nargothrond stuff). Agreed. That was my point Russ