From: "Durin VII" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Orcs Immortality (again) ..(was Re: What the Nazgul were afraid of) Lines: 58 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 11:47:33 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.139.30.25 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: iad-read.news.verio.net 957282098 209.139.30.25 (Tue, 02 May 2000 15:41:38 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 15:41:38 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!netnews.com!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!iad-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18183 I was wondering, does the mortality/immortallity mean the normal 'life span' of the being or their eventual fate. Could one of the Valar 'corrupt' an elfs body so it would eventually 'die'. They could easily kill an elf. While I agree that it does not seem likely, think of this senario. It is stated that the elves could die of sorrow. If the orcs are actually from elves, the first elves must have been torturedand corupted (in some similar way to the rings effect on gollum) and in agony. Perhaps they gave up, surrendering to death. Morgoth saw that is was happening. He then breed his new 'creations'. The lack of desire for life may have been passed on. So while the elves/orcs actual fate would not be affected (their spirits bound to the world) but their bodily life span was no longer infinite. just a thought. Conrad Dunkerson wrote in message news:hooP4.43021$fV.2694745@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > "grimgard" wrote in message > news:390DF5DF.2F70DD42@prodigy.net... > > > Well, that would imply that Morgoth was able to change the basic > > nature of the Elves/Orcs that he corrupted, and I believe that > > there was something in the Silmarillion to the effect that the > > Valar did not have that power. Conrad would probably be able to > > give you a direct quote. > > Oh, great... put me on the spot why don't you? :) > > "Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the > Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at > all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental > kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of > Luthien (and Tuor) and the position of their descendants was a > direct act of God." > Letters #153 > > Side note - that "(and Tuor)" ought to put to rest the debate over > whether Tolkien felt Tuor really did become immortal. > > The Silmarillion reference you are thinking of is probably the > slightly less definitive; > > "But Mandos had no power to withhold the spirits of Men that were > dead within the confines of the world, after their time of waiting; > nor could he change the fates of the Children of Iluvatar. He went > therefore to Manwe, Lord of the Valar, who governed the world under > the hand of Iluvatar; and Manwe sought counsel in his inmost > thought, where the will of Iluvatar was revealed. ... > For it was not permitted to the Valar to withhold Death from him, > which is the gift of Iluvatar to Men." > Silm, Of Beren and Luthien > > > -- Khazâd ai-mênu! ###### From: "David Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Orcs Immortality (again) ..(was Re: What the Nazgul were afraid of) Lines: 32 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 17:52:23 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.179.190.96 X-Trace: nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech.net 957390572 199.179.190.96 (Wed, 03 May 2000 16:49:32 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 16:49:32 CDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ameritech.net!nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18312 Durin VII wrote in message news:MGCP4.20224$0o4.176531@iad-read.news.verio.net... > I was wondering, does the mortality/immortallity mean the normal 'life span' > of the being or their eventual fate. It refers to normal life span. Technically though the Elves are not immortal. Tolkien described their nature as "serial longevity", meaning that they would live in the flesh as long as the Earth endured as a habitable place. > Could one of the Valar 'corrupt' an elf's body so it would eventually 'die'. It depends on what you mean. Did the Valar have the authority to corrupt the Elves to make Orcs? No, they were not allowed to interfere in the nature of the Children. It is also debatable whether Melkor had the ability to make Orcs out of Elves. But Melkor did have that ability to affect the bodies of the Elves. One of the results of his disbursed power in Arda was that after a few centuries of living in Middle-earth the bodies of the Elves began to "fade". > They could easily kill an elf. No they couldn't. Not if they wished to remain in Eru's good graces. :-) Dave ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs Immortality (again) ..(was Re: What the Nazgul were afraid of) References: X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 23 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 957410154 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 03 May 2000 22:15:54 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 22:15:54 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 03:15:54 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18309 Quoth "Durin VII" : > It is stated that the elves could die of sorrow. If the orcs are > actually from elves, the first elves must have been torturedand > corupted (in some similar way to the rings effect on gollum) and in > agony. Perhaps they gave up, surrendering to death. Morgoth saw that > is was happening. He then breed his new 'creations'. The lack of > desire for life may have been passed on. So while the elves/orcs > actual fate would not be affected (their spirits bound to the world) > but their bodily life span was no longer infinite. I don't think I'd buy "passed on" in a genetic sense, but I like your idea nonetheless (I'm not saying that I'm a True Believer just yet, but it's a very interesting notion). I could find it quite believable that (assuming the "Orcs = corrupted Elves" scenario) Orcs' lives would be shortened due to their society and general attitude. After all, who would want to live in an Orcish community for centuries? This raises an interesting question: were humans less susceptible to "dying from sorrow" than Elves were? I can't think of any reference that says so, but it would make _some_ sense: Elves know on some level that they'll get a second chance. Steuard Jensen ###### From: Eruadan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Orcs Immortality (again) ..(was Re: What the Nazgul were afraid of) Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 06:56:05 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <8er6u0$2vc$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.62.152.4 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu May 04 06:56:05 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.01; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x43.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 166.62.152.4 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDeruadan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.germany.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18342 In article , "David Lind" wrote: > But Melkor did have that ability to affect the bodies of the Elves. One of > the results of his disbursed power in Arda was that after a few centuries > of living in Middle-earth the bodies of the Elves began to "fade". Sorry, but I beg to differ. The fading and world-weariness that the Elves came to experience was a result of the "Prophecy of Mandos". See "The Flight of the Noldor" in The Silmarillion. Eruadan -- <*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*> Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, because to them you are small, insignificant, and taste good with ketchup Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8er6u0$2vc$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Subject: Re: Orcs Immortality (again) ..(was Re: What the Nazgul were afraid of) Lines: 46 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 08:35:47 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.141.212.141 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 957444752 206.141.212.141 (Thu, 04 May 2000 08:52:32 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 08:52:32 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!europa.netcrusader.net!209.48.40.11!dca1-hub1.news.digex.net!intermedia!cyclone-sf.pbi.net!206.141.251.3!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18335 Eruadan wrote in message news:8er6u0$2vc$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article , > "David Lind" wrote: > > > But Melkor did have that ability to affect the bodies of the Elves. > One of > > the results of his disbursed power in Arda was that after a few > centuries > > of living in Middle-earth the bodies of the Elves began to "fade". > > Sorry, but I beg to differ. The fading and world-weariness that the > Elves came to > experience was a result of the "Prophecy of Mandos". See "The Flight > of the Noldor" > in The Silmarillion. In this case the Prophecy was not the cause, it merely foretold what would happen if the Noldor continued on the same course of action. The cause of Elvish fading was the marring of Arda. Men believed that their _hröar_ were not by right nature short-lived, but had been made so by the malice of Melkor. It was not clear to the Eldar whether Men meant: by the general marring of Arda (which they themselves held to be the cause of the waning of their own _hröar_); or by some special malice against Men as Men. Athrabeth HoME X, pg. 304 As ages passed the dominance of their _fëar_ ever increased, 'consuming' their bodies . The end of this process is their 'fading'.; for the body becomes at last, as it were, a mere memory held by the _fëa_; and that end has already been achieved in many regions of Middle-earth, so that the Elves are indeed deathless and may not be destroyed or changed. Laws and Customs, HoME X, pg. 219 Dave ###### From: "Dave Lind" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: Subject: Re: Orcs Immortality (again) ..(was Re: What the Nazgul were afraid of) Lines: 20 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 09:10:41 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.141.212.141 X-Trace: nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net 957445583 206.141.212.141 (Thu, 04 May 2000 09:06:23 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 09:06:23 EDT Organization: Ameritech.Net www.ameritech.net Complaints: abuse@ameritech.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ameritech.net!nntp0.detroit.mi.ameritech.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18326 Steuard Jensen wrote in message news:KX5Q4.124$x3.1385@uchinews... > > This raises an interesting question: were humans less susceptible to > "dying from sorrow" than Elves were? I can't think of any reference > that says so, but it would make _some_ sense: Elves know on some level > that they'll get a second chance. According to the examples we have humans seem to be more susceptible of death by sorrow. They are after all they are more frail than Elves (by 'frail' I mean less easily healed). I can think of two instances of humans dying of sorrow or grief, Rian and Arwen. I cant think of any Elvish examples (Miriel didn't die of sorrow, unless maybe she was given some foresight of the woes caused by Feanor). Dave