From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Angelic orders (was Re: Newbie Question) Lines: 38 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 01 May 2000 14:31:51 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000501103151.13106.00002717@nso-ca.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17992 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >The Valar would correspond *very* >roughly to archangels. As a nit-picking point here, the Valar would be described better as Cherubim or Seraphim, the highest orders of Angels, while the Maiar, would be closer to Archangels. (Can a matter of conjecture and comparison be nit-picked?) Although, in a counter argument, it might be said that Archangels are the order of angels which has the most public contact with the world in which case the Valar would correspond to this group, while the Maiar would correspond to plain old Angels. The rest of of the Angelic orders would then be analogous to those Ainur who did not enter Eä. Hmmm, maybe if I split the difference and considered The Valar as be Thrones, Powers, and Dominions, there would be enough classes above them for the Ainur that didn't enter Eä, some levels to differentiate the Valar and the Maiar amongst themselves, and the added bonus of the Valar being in classes that on the face of it give nice one word discriptions of their roles in the world. P.S. I can't recall off the top of my head all the classes of angels, does someone else have an idea? What I can recall goes from top down: Cherubim, Seraphim, Thrones, Powers, Dominions, Principalities, Archangels, Angels. I think I'm missing one in between Seraphim and Thrones. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Angelic orders (was Re: Newbie Question) Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 14:57:44 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <20000501103151.13106.00002717@nso-ca.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b0.10 X-Server-Date: 1 May 2000 18:57:09 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18079 Said pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: > Although, in a counter argument, it might be said that Archangels are the >order of angels which has the most public contact with the world in which case >the Valar would correspond to this group, while the Maiar would correspond to >plain old Angels. Indeed, it might be said. That's why I said it. I had hoped to forestall nipticking by saying not only "roughly" but "*very* roughly". I see that my hope was in vain. -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000501103151.13106.00002717@nso-ca.aol.com> Subject: Re: Angelic orders (was Re: Newbie Question) Lines: 20 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 00:24:07 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.79.28.70 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 957227047 12.79.28.70 (Tue, 02 May 2000 00:24:07 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 00:24:07 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news.idt.net!news-peer.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.19!wnmasters2!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18155 "PaulB" wrote in message news:20000501103151.13106.00002717@nso-ca.aol.com... > P.S. I can't recall off the top of my head all the classes of > angels, does someone else have an idea? What I can recall goes > from top down: Cherubim, Seraphim, Thrones, Powers, Dominions, > Principalities, Archangels, Angels. I think I'm missing one in > between Seraphim and Thrones. The order you describe seems most similar to what I would call the Orthodoxa hierarchy (De Fide Orthodoxa); Seraphim > Cherubim > Thrones > Dominions > Powers > Virtues > Principalities > Archangels > Angels. The only hierarchy I'm aware of which places the Cherubim above the Seraphim is in the Berith Menucha... and that one is completely different (the Seraphim are the LEAST of angels). ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Angelic orders (was Re: Newbie Question) Lines: 29 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 May 2000 03:56:18 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000501235618.04046.00002202@nso-fu.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!newsfeed.fast.net!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18170 In article , "Conrad Dunkerson" writes: >> P.S. I can't recall off the top of my head all the classes of >> angels, does someone else have an idea? What I can recall goes >> from top down: Cherubim, Seraphim, Thrones, Powers, Dominions, >> Principalities, Archangels, Angels. I think I'm missing one in >> between Seraphim and Thrones. > >The order you describe seems most similar to what I would call the >Orthodoxa hierarchy (De Fide Orthodoxa); >Seraphim > Cherubim > Thrones > Dominions > Powers > Virtues > >Principalities > Archangels > Angels. > >The only hierarchy I'm aware of which places the Cherubim above >the Seraphim is in the Berith Menucha... and that one is completely >different (the Seraphim are the LEAST of angels). Thanks for the Virtues as well as for the corrections in order. Breathe Peace PB "... the essence of myth [is] that it have no taint of allegory to the maker and yet should suggest incipient allegories to the reader..." C. S. Lewis, having read "The Lay of Leithian" ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Angelic orders (was Re: Newbie Question) Lines: 49 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 May 2000 03:56:23 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000501235623.04046.00002203@nso-fu.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18168 In article , brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) writes: >Said pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >> Although, in a counter argument, it might be said that Archangels are >the >>order of angels which has the most public contact with the world in which >case >>the Valar would correspond to this group, while the Maiar would correspond >to >>plain old Angels. > >Indeed, it might be said. > >That's why I said it. And why I put it in again. Occasionally, when I'm thinking -and writing- off the top of my head, I prefer not posting ideas I like but that I'm not 100% behind without allowing equal time to the counter argument in my own thoughts -and writing. I imagine it lets others know A) that I really did give thought to the counter claim and 2) that I wish to expand the possibilities rather than slam the door on all other points of view. In this particular case, the realization of the "earthly messenger" aspect of Archangels eluded me because my initial reaction was "the Valar aren't that lowly." Once I started writing the backing to your initial thought came to me and rather than erase the entire post, I thought I'd just keep going with a broadened exposition. Here ends the brief look into the tattered cobwebs in PaulB's head. Maybe someday I'll actually get around to dusting up there too. >I had hoped to forestall nipticking by saying not only "roughly" >but "*very* roughly". I see that my hope was in vain. Sorryl, I took the "very roughly" to mean they're not really angels at all but angels are a close approximation to liken them to for those not familiar with the Valar and Maiar at all. I've always thought that it's a great analogy to make early -as you did, no critcism there- but it is an analogy that should be thrown away as soon as the reader gets an inkling as to what they really are in and of themselves without comparison. Breathe Peace PB "... the essence of myth [is] that it have no taint of allegory to the maker and yet should suggest incipient allegories to the reader..." C. S. Lewis, having read "The Lay of Leithian" ###### Message-ID: <390E9C02.C42C4F3F@ihwy.com> From: Chris Csernica X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Angelic orders (was Re: Newbie Question) References: <20000501235618.04046.00002202@nso-fu.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 12 Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 02:12:34 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.20.86.118 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: nuq-read.news.verio.net 957258601 207.20.86.118 (Tue, 02 May 2000 09:10:01 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 09:10:01 GMT Organization: Verio Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!peer.news.verio.net.MISMATCH!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!nuq-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18194 PaulB wrote: > Thanks for the Virtues as well as for the corrections in order. The name of this order is also sometimes translated "Authorities." Be that as it may, only the lowest triad ever deals with the material world and might possibly correspond to the Valar. The Cherubim, Seraphim and Thrones attend God directly, and would never have entered Ea. -- Chris Csernica