From: "Huan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Pronunciation was ....Re: Movie worry Date: 27 Apr 2000 23:01:28 GMT Organization: Pre-installed Company Lines: 33 Message-ID: <01bfb09c$8ba07a00$24648cd4@default> References: <3908883e$0$10882@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu> <20000427162649.22321.00000116@ng-md1.aol.com> <01bfb090$118e9780$24648cd4@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.140.100.36 X-Trace: 956876488 LGTBT6QCL6424D48CC uk25.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarq.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1162 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17925 I'm fairly sure the S in Saruman is supposed to be silent according to the appendices ( too lazy to check at the moment ) so pronunciation should be Aruman ? . The problem with the Bakshi version on this is the inconsistency ...they used both ! I just hope they at least get the following right:- Balrog...........BAL...rog NOT BALL..rog.......aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhh Minas Tirith...MIN..as Tirith NOT MINUS Tirith...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggghhhhhhhhhh and ( lastly for now ) Celeborn....KEL...eborn NOT SEL..eborn..........aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggghhhhhhhhh HuanCry ( aka Neil ) > Oh lighten up. As long as he doesn't pull a Bakshi and change "Saruman" to > "Aruman," I can live with the pronounciations. > DailyRich > The Pangea Reunification Army. One World. Literally. > ###### From: "Andrew Wells" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pronunciation was ....Re: Movie worry Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 08:54:43 +0100 Organization: Wellinghall Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8ebg6h$8pogq$1@fu-berlin.de> References: <3908883e$0$10882@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu> <20000427162649.22321.00000116@ng-md1.aol.com> <01bfb090$118e9780$24648cd4@default> <01bfb09c$8ba07a00$24648cd4@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: 14.02-03.quay.dial.plus.net.uk (212.159.73.14) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 956908562 9232922 212.159.73.14 (16 [23037]) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!14.02-03.quay.dial.plus.net.UK!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17905 Huan wrote in message <01bfb09c$8ba07a00$24648cd4@default>... > I'm fairly sure the S in Saruman is supposed to be silent according to the > appendices ( too lazy to check at the moment ) so pronunciation should be > Aruman ? I think you are misinterpreting the appendices. They say that s is *voiceless*, not *silent*. Andrew -- Andrew Wells Replace nospam with my first name to reach me ###### From: mark@pc-intouch.com (Mark Wells) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pronunciation was ....Re: Movie worry Organization: PC-InTOUCH Linux Conspiracy Message-ID: <39094b6e.2519469@news.verio.net> References: <3908883e$0$10882@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu> <20000427162649.22321.00000116@ng-md1.aol.com> <01bfb090$118e9780$24648cd4@default> <01bfb09c$8ba07a00$24648cd4@default> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.11/32.235 Lines: 10 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 08:27:43 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.172.26.170 X-Complaints-To: abuse@verio.net X-Trace: dfw-read.news.verio.net 956910310 198.172.26.170 (Fri, 28 Apr 2000 08:25:10 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 08:25:10 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!peer.news.verio.net.MISMATCH!iad-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!dfw-read.news.verio.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17914 On 27 Apr 2000 23:01:28 GMT, "Huan" wrote: > I'm fairly sure the S in Saruman is supposed to be silent according to the > appendices ( too lazy to check at the moment ) so pronunciation should be > Aruman ? . The problem with the Bakshi version on this is the >inconsistency > ...they used both ! Right, there are _lots_ of words that start with a silent S. ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pronunciation was ....Re: Movie worry Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:05:34 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <3908883e$0$10882@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu> <20000427162649.22321.00000116@ng-md1.aol.com> <01bfb090$118e9780$24648cd4@default> <01bfb09c$8ba07a00$24648cd4@default> <8ebg6h$8pogq$1@fu-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b2.a8 X-Server-Date: 28 Apr 2000 14:04:33 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18076 Said nospam@wellinghall.force9.co.uk (Andrew Wells) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Huan wrote in message <01bfb09c$8ba07a00$24648cd4@default>... > >> I'm fairly sure the S in Saruman is supposed to be silent according to the >> appendices ( too lazy to check at the moment ) so pronunciation should be >> Aruman ? > >I think you are misinterpreting the appendices. They say that s is >*voiceless*, not *silent*. For anyone who may not know, the voiceless s is the one in "sleep"; the voiced s is the one in "cheese". ###### From: LESDL Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pronunciation was ....Re: Movie worry Organization: Tertiary Adjunct Of Unimatrix Zero One Message-ID: References: <3908883e$0$10882@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu> <20000427162649.22321.00000116@ng-md1.aol.com> <01bfb090$118e9780$24648cd4@default> <01bfb09c$8ba07a00$24648cd4@default> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 19 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:29:13 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.58.158.13 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shore.net X-Trace: news.shore.net 956935723 209.58.158.13 (Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:28:43 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:28:43 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.shore.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18120 On 27 Apr 2000 23:01:28 GMT, "Huan" squinted and tapped out: > > > I'm fairly sure the S in Saruman is supposed to be silent according to the > appendices ( too lazy to check at the moment ) so pronunciation should be > Aruman ? . The problem with the Bakshi version on this is the >inconsistency > ...they used both ! I don't have the books here to refer to either, but I believe the BBC's pronunciation included the "S" in the name. -- LESDL Asshole(tm)#74 BS 24 http://eddiekieger.com ###### From: "Alan Graham" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pronunciation was ....Re: Movie worry Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 11:23:50 +0100 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8eed7p$5tl$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <3908883e$0$10882@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu> <20000427162649.22321.00000116@ng-md1.aol.com> <01bfb090$118e9780$24648cd4@default> <01bfb09c$8ba07a00$24648cd4@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-35.harlequin-basslet.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk 957003833 6069 62.137.25.35 (29 Apr 2000 10:23:53 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Apr 2000 10:23:53 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18006 LESDL wrote in message ... >On 27 Apr 2000 23:01:28 GMT, "Huan" squinted and >tapped out: > >> >> >> I'm fairly sure the S in Saruman is supposed to be silent according to the >> appendices ( too lazy to check at the moment ) so pronunciation should be >> Aruman ? . The problem with the Bakshi version on this is the >>inconsistency >> ...they used both ! > >I don't have the books here to refer to either, but I believe the >BBC's pronunciation included the "S" in the name. But completely got "Isengard" wrong - despite being told how to probounce it correctly Al ###### From: Jamie Armstrong Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pronunciation was ....Re: Movie worry Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 11:44:06 +0100 Organization: http://www.geocities.com/jamie.armstrong/ Lines: 18 Message-ID: <390ABCF6.C03EC6A3@durham.ac.uk> References: <3908883e$0$10882@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu> <20000427162649.22321.00000116@ng-md1.aol.com> <01bfb090$118e9780$24648cd4@default> <01bfb09c$8ba07a00$24648cd4@default> <8eed7p$5tl$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: lib3--33.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17882 Alan Graham wrote: > > LESDL wrote in message ... > >I don't have the books here to refer to either, but I believe the > >BBC's pronunciation included the "S" in the name. > > But completely got "Isengard" wrong - despite being told how to pronounce it > correctly > Did they? Oh no! - that means I've been getting it wrong all these years too! So what is the correct pronunciation then? It isn't Is-engard by any chance is it? Jamie (suddenly feeling such a fool...) ###### From: "Alan Graham" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pronunciation was ....Re: Movie worry Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 13:55:54 +0100 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 32 Message-ID: <8eem4u$1dv$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <3908883e$0$10882@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu> <20000427162649.22321.00000116@ng-md1.aol.com> <01bfb090$118e9780$24648cd4@default> <01bfb09c$8ba07a00$24648cd4@default> <8eed7p$5tl$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <390ABCF6.C03EC6A3@durham.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-108.high-hat.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk 957012958 1471 62.137.27.108 (29 Apr 2000 12:55:58 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 29 Apr 2000 12:55:58 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18008 Jamie Armstrong wrote in message <390ABCF6.C03EC6A3@durham.ac.uk>... > > >Alan Graham wrote: >> >> LESDL wrote in message ... > >> >I don't have the books here to refer to either, but I believe the >> >BBC's pronunciation included the "S" in the name. >> >> But completely got "Isengard" wrong - despite being told how to pronounce it >> correctly >> >Did they? >Oh no! - that means I've been getting it wrong all these years too! >So what is the correct pronunciation then? >It isn't Is-engard by any chance is it? As I understand it, the pronounciation should be more akin to ee-sengard. This is only a rough approximation, the initial I to be pronounced as "Y" is in some Norse languages. I also got it wrong from the BBC adaptation for years, and still "default" to their version if I'm not thinking about it. Al ###### From: "Huan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pronunciation was ....Re: Movie worry Date: 29 Apr 2000 15:21:16 GMT Organization: Pre-installed Company Lines: 12 Message-ID: <01bfb1ee$96eb5080$386c8cd4@default> References: <3908883e$0$10882@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu> <20000427162649.22321.00000116@ng-md1.aol.com> <01bfb090$118e9780$24648cd4@default> <01bfb09c$8ba07a00$24648cd4@default> <8eed7p$5tl$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <390ABCF6.C03EC6A3@durham.ac.uk> <8eem4u$1dv$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.140.108.56 X-Trace: 957021676 LGTBT6QCL6C38D48CC uk26.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarq.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1162 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17937 They definitely got Celeborn wrong.....they pronounced it Sel..eborn...when it should be Kel..eborn ! HuanCry ( aka Neil ) > I also got it wrong from the BBC adaptation for years, and still "default" > to their version if I'm not thinking about it. > > Al > ###### From: Jamie Armstrong Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pronunciation was ....Re: Movie worry Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 16:35:22 +0100 Organization: http://www.geocities.com/jamie.armstrong/ Lines: 15 Message-ID: <390B013A.C43BEEA1@durham.ac.uk> References: <3908883e$0$10882@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu> <20000427162649.22321.00000116@ng-md1.aol.com> <01bfb090$118e9780$24648cd4@default> <01bfb09c$8ba07a00$24648cd4@default> <8eed7p$5tl$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <390ABCF6.C03EC6A3@durham.ac.uk> <8eem4u$1dv$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk> <01bfb1ee$96eb5080$386c8cd4@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: lib3--44.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17871 No they didn't - they used 'Keleborn'! Huan wrote: > > They definitely got Celeborn wrong.....they pronounced it Sel..eborn...when > it should be Kel..eborn ! > > HuanCry ( aka Neil ) > > > I also got it wrong from the BBC adaptation for years, and still > "default" > > to their version if I'm not thinking about it. > > > > Al > > ###### From: "Huan" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pronunciation was ....Re: Movie worry Date: 29 Apr 2000 16:35:02 GMT Organization: Pre-installed Company Lines: 26 Message-ID: <01bfb1f8$e537ac20$386c8cd4@default> References: <3908883e$0$10882@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu> <20000427162649.22321.00000116@ng-md1.aol.com> <01bfb090$118e9780$24648cd4@default> <01bfb09c$8ba07a00$24648cd4@default> <8eed7p$5tl$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <390ABCF6.C03EC6A3@durham.ac.uk> <8eem4u$1dv$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk> <01bfb1ee$96eb5080$386c8cd4@default> <390B013A.C43BEEA1@durham.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.140.108.56 X-Trace: 957026102 LGTBT6QCL6C38D48CC uk25.supernews.com X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@remarq.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1162 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!europa.netcrusader.net!128.32.206.55!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17936 SORRY SORRY SORRY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How could I make such a mistake !!!!! You are , of course , right . It was the animated version not the BBC. The reason why I got it wrong , I think , was Annette Crosbies' Galadriel was too good for the film and so I associate her subconsciously with the much better BBC audio version. I was not much impressed with Marian Diamonds' Galadriel in the BBC version ...likewise with Will Squires' Gandalf over Horderns !! Yours shamefully Neil ( aka HuanCry ) Jamie Armstrong wrote in article <390B013A.C43BEEA1@durham.ac.uk>... > No they didn't - they used 'Keleborn'! > > Huan wrote: > > > > They definitely got Celeborn wrong.....they pronounced it Sel..eborn...when > > it should be Kel..eborn ! > > > > HuanCry ( aka Neil ) > > ###### From: Jamie Armstrong Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pronunciation was ....Re: Movie worry Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 20:13:05 +0100 Organization: http://www.geocities.com/jamie.armstrong/ Lines: 42 Message-ID: <390B3441.804ECD5C@durham.ac.uk> References: <3908883e$0$10882@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu> <20000427162649.22321.00000116@ng-md1.aol.com> <01bfb090$118e9780$24648cd4@default> <01bfb09c$8ba07a00$24648cd4@default> <8eed7p$5tl$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <390ABCF6.C03EC6A3@durham.ac.uk> <8eem4u$1dv$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk> <01bfb1ee$96eb5080$386c8cd4@default> <390B013A.C43BEEA1@durham.ac.uk> <01bfb1f8$e537ac20$386c8cd4@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: er151-29.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17865 Huan wrote: > > SORRY SORRY SORRY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > How could I make such a mistake !!!!! Shame on you, Sir! > You are , of course , right . It was the animated version not the BBC. > The reason why I got it wrong , I think , was Annette Crosbies' Galadriel > was too good for the film and so I associate her subconsciously with the > much better BBC audio version. Hear hear! For all it's faults it is still a brilliant production. > I was not much impressed with Marian > Diamonds' Galadriel in the BBC version Really? You're the second person to say that to me today! I thought she was very good. Although, I've always found it odd that in the Beebs production, Galadriel has a much younger-sounding voice than her granddaughter... > ...likewise with Will Squires' > Gandalf over Horderns !! > Oh, now there I can't agree with you - Michael Hordern was superb as Gandalf - I felt he sounded as much the part as Ian Mckellen looks the part. Jack May as Theoden was inspired - I've listened to The Archers all my life, and after hearing LotR for the first time, I was always expecting Nelson to leap over the wine bar and start wielding his sword at troublesome customers! I always found John Le Mesurer (that was the best spelling that I could come up with :)) as Bilbo as rather an odd choice - I wasn't entirely convinced by him. But it amused me to know that Ian Holm will play his own uncle! Jamie ###### From: LESDL Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pronunciation was ....Re: Movie worry Organization: Tertiary Adjunct Of Unimatrix Zero One Message-ID: References: <3908883e$0$10882@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu> <20000427162649.22321.00000116@ng-md1.aol.com> <01bfb090$118e9780$24648cd4@default> <01bfb09c$8ba07a00$24648cd4@default> <8eed7p$5tl$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <390ABCF6.C03EC6A3@durham.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 08:30:39 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.58.158.13 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shore.net X-Trace: news.shore.net 957184193 209.58.158.13 (Mon, 01 May 2000 08:29:53 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 08:29:53 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.shore.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18098 On Sat, 29 Apr 2000 11:44:06 +0100, Jamie Armstrong squinted and tapped out: > > >Alan Graham wrote: >> >> LESDL wrote in message ... > >> >I don't have the books here to refer to either, but I believe the >> >BBC's pronunciation included the "S" in the name. >> >> But completely got "Isengard" wrong - despite being told how to pronounce it >> correctly >> >Did they? >Oh no! - that means I've been getting it wrong all these years too! >So what is the correct pronunciation then? >It isn't Is-engard by any chance is it? > >Jamie (suddenly feeling such a fool...) You are not a fool. It is pronounced "Eye"sengard. The BBC got that right. I do not know what Alan means, above. In Tolkien's own voice in the recordings he made, he pronounces it that way. -- LESDL Asshole(tm)#74 BS 24 http://eddiekieger.com ###### From: Robert Brady Subject: Re: Pronunciation was ....Re: Movie worry Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3908883e$0$10882@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu> <20000427162649.22321.00000116@ng-md1.aol.com> <01bfb090$118e9780$24648cd4@default> <01bfb09c$8ba07a00$24648cd4@default> <8eed7p$5tl$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <390ABCF6.C03EC6A3@durham.ac.uk> Reply-To: rwb197@ecs.soton.ac.uk X-URL: http://www.aber.mud.org/ X-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy User-Agent: tin/1.4.1-19991124 ("Blueprint") (UNIX) (Linux/2.2.11 (i686)) NNTP-Posting-Host: dibden.ecs.soton.ac.uk Message-ID: <390e2f14@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Date: 2 May 2000 02:27:48 GMT X-Trace: 2 May 2000 02:27:48 GMT, dibden.ecs.soton.ac.uk Lines: 19 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!blackbush.xlink.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!news-lond.gip.net!news.gsl.net!gip.net!easynet-uk!easynet.net!news.vas-net.net!server2.netnews.ja.net!news-spool.soton.ac.uk!news.ecs.soton.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18151 LESDL wrote: >You are not a fool. It is pronounced "Eye"sengard. The BBC got that >right. I do not know what Alan means, above. "Eye" (really /aI/) for is a purely english pronouncation, due to a vowel shift after the invention of printing and the rought standardisation of spellings. in Elvish is pronounced like the in machine (really /i/). Isengard is a Sindarin word, isn't it? >In Tolkien's own voice in the recordings he made, he pronounces it >that way. I am highly suprised by such a claim. -- Robert ###### From: LESDL Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pronunciation was ....Re: Movie worry Organization: Tertiary Adjunct Of Unimatrix Zero One Message-ID: References: <3908883e$0$10882@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu> <20000427162649.22321.00000116@ng-md1.aol.com> <01bfb090$118e9780$24648cd4@default> <01bfb09c$8ba07a00$24648cd4@default> <8eed7p$5tl$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <390ABCF6.C03EC6A3@durham.ac.uk> <390e2f14@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 08:12:09 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.58.158.13 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shore.net X-Trace: news.shore.net 957269478 209.58.158.13 (Tue, 02 May 2000 08:11:18 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 08:11:18 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.shore.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18191 On 2 May 2000 02:27:48 GMT, Robert Brady squinted and tapped out: >LESDL wrote: > >>You are not a fool. It is pronounced "Eye"sengard. The BBC got that >>right. I do not know what Alan means, above. > >"Eye" (really /aI/) for is a purely english pronouncation, due >to a vowel shift after the invention of printing and the rought >standardisation of spellings. in Elvish is pronounced like the > in machine (really /i/). Be that as it may, that's how it's spoken. > >Isengard is a Sindarin word, isn't it? I really couldn't tell you. I know that many of our more learned regulars quickly could. > >>In Tolkien's own voice in the recordings he made, he pronounces it >>that way. > >I am highly suprised by such a claim. Excuse me? Claim? Listen to the tapes for yourself. -- LESDL Asshole(tm)#74 BS 24 http://eddiekieger.com ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pronunciation was ....Re: Movie worry Date: 03 May 2000 00:49:11 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 46 Message-ID: <6u4s8ga7q0.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3908883e$0$10882@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu> <20000427162649.22321.00000116@ng-md1.aol.com> <01bfb090$118e9780$24648cd4@default> <01bfb09c$8ba07a00$24648cd4@default> <8eed7p$5tl$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <390ABCF6.C03EC6A3@durham.ac.uk> <390e2f14@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 957307751 1330 10.0.3.2 (2 May 2000 22:49:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 May 2000 22:49:11 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18199 LESDL writes: > On 2 May 2000 02:27:48 GMT, Robert Brady > squinted and tapped out: > > >Isengard is a Sindarin word, isn't it? > > I really couldn't tell you. I know that many of our more learned > regulars quickly could. No. Either Westron or Adunaic (which is one of the influences on Westron). The sindarin name of Isengard is Angrenost, so sayes Unfinished Tales.. "Isen" and "ang" are the respective words for "iron". > >>In Tolkien's own voice in the recordings he made, he pronounces it > >>that way. > > > >I am highly suprised by such a claim. So am I. Westron is at least partly based on anglo-saxon, which is related to old german. In _modern_ german "iron" is "eisen" (pronounced eye-sen), but in _modern_ swiss german dialect (which is far nearer to medieval german) it is "ise" (pronounced (ee-se). So I have allways assumed ee-sen-gard. > Excuse me? Claim? Listen to the tapes for yourself. I do not have a copy of them :-). Now I am wondering: Did Tolkien here get the historic pronounciation wrong? Or did the pronounciation swing back and fro? -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### From: "Aris Katsaris" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pronunciation was ....Re: Movie worry Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 21:25:03 +0300 Organization: An OTEnet S.A. customer Lines: 24 Message-ID: <8en6iu$20u$1@newssrv.otenet.gr> References: <3908883e$0$10882@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu> <20000427162649.22321.00000116@ng-md1.aol.com> <01bfb090$118e9780$24648cd4@default> <01bfb09c$8ba07a00$24648cd4@default> <8eed7p$5tl$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <390ABCF6.C03EC6A3@durham.ac.uk> <390e2f14@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: athe530-p126.otenet.gr X-Trace: newssrv.otenet.gr 957291934 2078 212.205.253.126 (2 May 2000 18:25:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@otenet.gr NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 May 2000 18:25:34 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news.otenet.gr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18231 Robert Brady wrote in message news:390e2f14@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk... > LESDL wrote: > > >You are not a fool. It is pronounced "Eye"sengard. The BBC got that > >right. I do not know what Alan means, above. > > "Eye" (really /aI/) for is a purely english pronouncation, due > to a vowel shift after the invention of printing and the rought > standardisation of spellings. in Elvish is pronounced like the > in machine (really /i/). > > Isengard is a Sindarin word, isn't it? It's an English word (translated Rohirric if you want :-) meaning iron enclosure or something of the sort... Courtesy of Robert Foster's The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth... Aris Katsaris ###### From: LESDL Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pronunciation was ....Re: Movie worry Organization: Tertiary Adjunct Of Unimatrix Zero One Message-ID: <1t30hs8n95uuiqr8n4hub21790l9p8equl@4ax.com> References: <3908883e$0$10882@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu> <20000427162649.22321.00000116@ng-md1.aol.com> <01bfb090$118e9780$24648cd4@default> <01bfb09c$8ba07a00$24648cd4@default> <8eed7p$5tl$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <390ABCF6.C03EC6A3@durham.ac.uk> <390e2f14@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <6u4s8ga7q0.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 X-No-Archive: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 55 Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 08:13:11 -0400 NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.58.158.13 X-Complaints-To: abuse@shore.net X-Trace: news.shore.net 957355934 209.58.158.13 (Wed, 03 May 2000 08:12:14 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 08:12:14 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.shore.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18287 On 03 May 2000 00:49:11 +0200, Neil Franklin squinted and tapped out: snip > >> >>In Tolkien's own voice in the recordings he made, he pronounces it >> >>that way. >> > >> >I am highly suprised by such a claim. > >So am I. Westron is at least partly based on anglo-saxon, which is >related to old german. > >In _modern_ german "iron" is "eisen" (pronounced eye-sen), but in >_modern_ swiss german dialect (which is far nearer to medieval german) >it is "ise" (pronounced (ee-se). > >So I have allways assumed ee-sen-gard. > > >> Excuse me? Claim? Listen to the tapes for yourself. > >I do not have a copy of them :-). I highly recommend them. It's quite something to listen to him read and sing from his own stories. Before I got the tapes I downloaded a couple of files from this site: http://tolkien.sweeetnet.com/mp3s.html Look for the "JRR Tolkien Reads" section. This will give you but a small taste of the tapes that he made. > >Now I am wondering: Did Tolkien here get the historic pronounciation >wrong? Or did the pronounciation swing back and fro? It would seem to me that there was extreme calculation in everything he did, so I would gather that he was very exact in the way he pronounced it. The track in question is the one in which he sings the ents' marching song. "To Eye-sengard we go, we go, to eye-sengard we go." If I can get the time and find the programs, I'll record a bit of the track in mp3 format and post it, if there's somewhere you can point me to post it to. -- LESDL Asshole(tm)#74 BS 24 http://eddiekieger.com ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pronunciation was ....Re: Movie worry Date: 03 May 2000 21:41:41 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 49 Message-ID: <6ubt2nv2tm.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <3908883e$0$10882@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu> <20000427162649.22321.00000116@ng-md1.aol.com> <01bfb090$118e9780$24648cd4@default> <01bfb09c$8ba07a00$24648cd4@default> <8eed7p$5tl$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <390ABCF6.C03EC6A3@durham.ac.uk> <390e2f14@news.ecs.soton.ac.uk> <6u4s8ga7q0.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <1t30hs8n95uuiqr8n4hub21790l9p8equl@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 957382901 584 10.0.3.2 (3 May 2000 19:41:41 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 May 2000 19:41:41 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18306 LESDL writes: > On 03 May 2000 00:49:11 +0200, Neil Franklin > squinted and tapped out: > > >> Excuse me? Claim? Listen to the tapes for yourself. > > > >I do not have a copy of them :-). > > Before I got the tapes I downloaded a couple of files from this site: > > http://tolkien.sweeetnet.com/mp3s.html > > Look for the "JRR Tolkien Reads" section. This will give you but a > small taste of the tapes that he made. Due to lack of a sound card in this computer, I think that will fail. > >Now I am wondering: Did Tolkien here get the historic pronounciation > >wrong? Or did the pronounciation swing back and fro? > > It would seem to me that there was extreme calculation in everything > he did, so I would gather that he was very exact in the way he > pronounced it. I would also be surprised if he erred. I wonder, where he would actually get an description of how they pronounced it in those days. Or did he just use his best speculation? > If I can get the time and find the programs, I'll record a bit of the > track in mp3 format and post it, if there's somewhere you can point me > to post it to. As I have no sound here, don't bother. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### From: Jamie Armstrong Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Pronunciation was ....Re: Movie worry Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 20:32:32 +0100 Organization: http://www.geocities.com/jamie.armstrong/ Lines: 28 Message-ID: <39107ED0.550C448E@durham.ac.uk> References: <3908883e$0$10882@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu> <20000427162649.22321.00000116@ng-md1.aol.com> <01bfb090$118e9780$24648cd4@default> <01bfb09c$8ba07a00$24648cd4@default> <8eed7p$5tl$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk> <390ABCF6.C03EC6A3@durham.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: er151-13.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18331 LESDL wrote: > > On Sat, 29 Apr 2000 11:44:06 +0100, Jamie Armstrong > squinted and tapped out: > > > >Alan Graham wrote: > >> But completely got "Isengard" wrong - despite being told how to pronounce it > >> correctly > >> > >Did they? > >Oh no! - that means I've been getting it wrong all these years too! > >So what is the correct pronunciation then? > >It isn't Is-engard by any chance is it? > > > >Jamie (suddenly feeling such a fool...) > > You are not a fool. It is pronounced "Eye"sengard. The BBC got that > right. I do not know what Alan means, above. > > In Tolkien's own voice in the recordings he made, he pronounces it > that way. Yes - as I now remember from hearing the tapes myself! Thanks for reminding me! Jamie