Message-ID: <3906ABCF.A907A164@ibl.de> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 09:41:51 +0100 From: "Andreas C. Lazar" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [de] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: de MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Gollum: too wretched for the movie? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 31 Organization: Customer of UUNET Deutschland GmbH NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.127.68.2 X-Trace: businessnews.de.uu.net 956734791 21313 195.127.68.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!do.de.uu.net!nr-do2.de.uu.net!businessnews.de.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17759 Hello everybody, itīs me again (now Iīve finally finished reading the book :-) ). As I am always considering PJs possible misinterpretation of the book, I now am concerned about how Gollum is to be portrayed. He is to be supposedly evil -after all, he betrays Frodo and Sam to Shelob and bites Frodos finger off. And as all evil is to be punished, he falls into the Cracks of Doom. (Whom am I telling this, anyway?) But donīt you think people will say "Ooh, look at this poor little wretched creature. Heīs been countless years alone under the mountain and now heīs completely twisted cuzī of the Ring. Heīs like a strange but cute dog of Frodoīs. Why donīt they give him something to eat? They canīt let this poop pet die!" After all, Gollum is so wicked and miserable that you canīt but feel compassion for him. And I donīt think there ever was such a pitiful yet evil foe in any movie so far. Normally, good and bad are clear-cut so that the audience can identify itself with the heroes and loathe the enemies. So what is PJ going to do? Make Gollum more evil so that people donīt cry and feel sad when he dies? What do you think? So long, Andreas -- Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk, agh burzum-ishi krimpatul. ++ http://www.s-line.de/homepages/my_world/ ++ ###### From: Stug Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum: too wretched for the movie? Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:30:18 -0400 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 26 Message-ID: <3907199A.EFECDDDF@telerama.com> References: <3906ABCF.A907A164@ibl.de> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17767 "Andreas C. Lazar" wrote: > > But donīt you think people will say "Ooh, look at this poor little > wretched creature. Heīs been countless years alone under the mountain > and now heīs completely twisted cuzī of the Ring. Heīs like a strange > but cute dog of Frodoīs. Why donīt they give him something to eat? They > canīt let this poop pet die!" > > After all, Gollum is so wicked and miserable that you canīt but feel > compassion for him. And I donīt think there ever was such a pitiful yet > evil foe in any movie so far. Normally, good and bad are clear-cut so > that the audience can identify itself with the heroes and loathe the > enemies. > > So what is PJ going to do? Make Gollum more evil so that people donīt > cry and feel sad when he dies? What do you think? Maybe he will depict Smeagol murdering his brother Deagol to take the ring from him when he found it, and thus the audience might then eagerly await Gollum's comeuppance. Stug -- "I don't know half of you half as well as I would like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve". -- BB ###### From: "Michael Martin" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <3906ABCF.A907A164@ibl.de> Subject: Re: Gollum: too wretched for the movie? Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:46:50 -0400 Lines: 75 Organization: 7 Thunders Multimedia X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-Original-NNTP-Posting-Host: wusmm111228-01.daytonoh.ncr.com Message-ID: <39071d7c$1@rpc1284.daytonoh.ncr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ncrnews.daytonoh.ncr.com X-Trace: 26 Apr 2000 12:46:55 -0400, ncrnews.daytonoh.ncr.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.cwix.com!pullfeed!rpc1287.DaytonOH.NCR.COM!ncrnews.daytonoh.ncr.com Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17769 Andreas C. Lazar wrote in message news:3906ABCF.A907A164@ibl.de... > Hello everybody, > > itīs me again (now Iīve finally finished reading the book :-) ). > > As I am always considering PJs possible misinterpretation of the book, Pfeh. It's PJ's adaptation of the story. If you want _the_ definitive version, well, just go back and read it again! :-) >I > now am concerned about how Gollum is to be portrayed. > He is to be supposedly evil -after all, he betrays Frodo and Sam to > Shelob and bites Frodos finger off. And as all evil is to be punished, > he falls into the Cracks of Doom. (Whom am I telling this, anyway?) I don't think that Gollum's death is so much a punishment as it is the consequence of his addiction to the Ring. Gollum could not give it up, and so perished with it rather than live without it. > But donīt you think people will say "Ooh, look at this poor little > wretched creature. Heīs been countless years alone under the mountain > and now heīs completely twisted cuzī of the Ring. Heīs like a strange > but cute dog of Frodoīs. Why donīt they give him something to eat? They > canīt let this poop pet die!" Are you sure you read Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings"? > After all, Gollum is so wicked and miserable that you canīt but feel > compassion for him. And I donīt think there ever was such a pitiful yet > evil foe in any movie so far. Normally, good and bad are clear-cut so > that the audience can identify itself with the heroes and loathe the > enemies. I very much think that Tolkien intended for those lines to be blurred with Gollum. Do you recall Gandalf's conversation with Frodo about Gollum--about those deserving death and those not? Frodo's mercy and compassion towards Smeagol are a key element to the story, and to leave that out or change it drastically would be a tragic mistake. > So what is PJ going to do? Make Gollum more evil so that people donīt > cry and feel sad when he dies? What do you think? PJ's first major movie was "Heavenly Creatures," about two teenage girls who get so caught up in a make-believe world that they end up killing one of their mothers. He handled that story so that while we abhor the killing, we are not without our sympathies or mercies towards the killers. I can only hope he will handle Gollum in a similar way. Michael Martin http://magisterium.go.cc "Like the lights that light the night, we can turn them off, and I can breathe in shadows." --grey eye glances, "The Me You See" ###### From: "O. Sharp" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum: too wretched for the movie? Date: 26 Apr 2000 19:29:40 GMT Organization: "Don't Hurt Sauron! He's My Dad!..." Lines: 95 Message-ID: <8e7g34$1n7$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> References: <3906ABCF.A907A164@ibl.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.b7.09.72 User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-19990517 ("Psychonaut") (UNIX) (SunOS/4.1.4 (sun4m)) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17772 Andreas C. Lazar wrote: : it's me again (now I've finally finished reading the book :-) ). Since you _have_ come back, I presume you enjoyed it. :) Welcome! : [...]After all, Gollum is so wicked and miserable that you can't but feel : compassion for him. And I don't think there ever was such a pitiful yet : evil foe in any movie so far. Normally, good and bad are clear-cut so : that the audience can identify itself with the heroes and loathe the : enemies. Well, I must admit I don't agree here. What about Lon Chaney in the original "Phantom of the Opera", breaking into tears when his hideous face is revealed, later on agonizing over Christine's betrayal of him? Or the monster in "Frankenstein", who was tormented by Fritz before killing him, and whose own death was shown as fearful and terrifying? Nope, I think "a pitiful yet evil foe" is actually quite a common device. Even Shakespeare's Shylock was distinctly human and pitiable at times... If Gollum is to be a follower in that same path, then I'd say Mr. Jackson would be doing it exactly right. : So what is PJ going to do? Make Gollum more evil so that people don't : cry and feel sad when he dies? What do you think? Well, why _not_ feel sad when Gollum dies? Tolkien himself said that "For me the most tragic moment in the Tale comes in II 323 ff. when Sam fails to note the complete change in Gollum's tone and aspect" (_Letters_, #246). Gollum, however evil he may have become, was also a victim of the Ring; to ignore that and villify Gollum would, I think, weaken the characterization and weaken the story, would it not? ...Not that I'm saying we need to make _all_ the evil characterizations pitiable, mind you... :) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ohh@netcom.com 111 AMON HEN 111 FRODO looks out over the countryside. Seized by a sudden influence, he puts on the Ring. 112 INT. BARAD-DUR 112 SAURON looks out from a high window. SAURON No, Halfling! Nooo! Take it off! Take off the Ring!... Damn. Another Ringwraith on my conscience. Wish I'd never made that thing. Oh, where will it all end? (breaks into tears) 241 EXT. ORTHANC 241 The parley with Saruman continues. GANDALF Think well, Saruman! Will you not come down? SARUMAN (after a pause) You know, I've been thinking for a while that maybe I've made a mistake. I really have harmed you all, especially you, Theoden, and you, Grima. I feel just dreadful! Look, Aragorn, here's the original Elendelmir I took from Isildur's body. And my diary. I think I have some other stuff of yours too. Oh, by Aule I am so ashamed! (breaks into tears) 391 EXT. THE PELLENOR FIELDS 391 The WITCH-KING leans over the dead body of THEODEN. WITCH-KING Another victim of my cruelty! If only I still had a will of my own! If only I hadn't put on that Ring! (breaks into tears) 400 EXT. BEFORE THE BLACK GATE 400 The Mouth of Sauron looks at Gandalf as if stung. MOUTH OF SAURON You think I _like_ this job? I'm only doing this to feed my wife and three adopted kids... ###### Message-ID: <3907FE94.D3554D9F@ibl.de> Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 09:47:16 +0100 From: "Andreas C. Lazar" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [de] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: de MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum: too wretched for the movie? References: <3906ABCF.A907A164@ibl.de> <8e7g34$1n7$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 15 Organization: Customer of UUNET Deutschland GmbH NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.127.68.2 X-Trace: businessnews.de.uu.net 956821516 29188 195.127.68.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!do.de.uu.net!nr-do2.de.uu.net!businessnews.de.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17803 O. Sharp wrote: > Well, why _not_ feel sad when Gollum dies? [snip] > Gollum, however evil he may have become, was also a victim of the Ring; > to ignore that and villify Gollum would, I think, weaken the > characterization and weaken the story, would it not? > Sure. Thatīs why Iīm considering Gollumīs portrayal. Bye, Andreas -- Warum ist Papa Schlumpf böse, und warum ist "Armageddon" so schlecht? Das alles und noch viel mehr nur auf ++ http://www.s-line.de/homepages/my_world/ ++ ###### Message-ID: <39080149.E624CB68@ibl.de> Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 09:58:49 +0100 From: "Andreas C. Lazar" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [de] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: de MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum: too wretched for the movie? References: <3906ABCF.A907A164@ibl.de> <39071d7c$1@rpc1284.daytonoh.ncr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 37 Organization: Customer of UUNET Deutschland GmbH NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.127.68.2 X-Trace: businessnews.de.uu.net 956822208 29188 195.127.68.2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!diablo.theplanet.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!do.de.uu.net!nr-do2.de.uu.net!businessnews.de.uu.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17802 Michael Martin schrieb: > Are you sure you read Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings"? > Well...letīs see..."The...Adventures...Of...Harry...Potter..."...duh! > Do you recall Gandalf's conversation with > Frodo about Gollum--about those deserving death and those not? > No, because I didnīt read the book ;) . > Frodo's mercy and compassion towards Smeagol are a key element to > the story, > ...and one of the best and most remarkable, too... > and to leave that out or change it drastically would > be a tragic mistake. > Yes! But Gollum is such a complex and twisted character and IMHO very difficult to portray. If you werenīt a Tolkien fan and went to watch a movie where two characters would walk with a third, miserable, pitiful, whining, torn being like Gollum, would you feel comfortable watching them? There are so many movies where the villains are just plainly evil to the bone so that there shall be no pity when theyīre finally killed. And considering the PG-13 rating, I fear PJ could steer towards the shallow mainstream. But that would be, as you say, "a tragic mistake". So long, Andreas -- Warum ist Papa Schlumpf böse, und warum ist "Armageddon" so schlecht? Das alles und noch viel mehr nur auf ++ http://www.s-line.de/homepages/my_world/ ++ ###### Message-ID: <3908E415.909B10DB@hotmail.com> From: Andy Sheets X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum: too wretched for the movie? References: <3906ABCF.A907A164@ibl.de> <39071d7c$1@rpc1284.daytonoh.ncr.com> <39080149.E624CB68@ibl.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 18 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 00:01:45 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.191.218.187 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net 956880105 168.191.218.187 (Thu, 27 Apr 2000 17:01:45 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 17:01:45 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsf1.elp.rr.com!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com|news-west.rr.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!newsmaster1.prod.itd.earthlink.net!newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17851 Andreas C. Lazar wrote: > Yes! But Gollum is such a complex and twisted character and IMHO very > difficult to portray. If you werenīt a Tolkien fan and went to watch a > movie where two characters would walk with a third, miserable, pitiful, > whining, torn being like Gollum, would you feel comfortable watching > them? Sure. If they explain it properly, why the hobbits are travelling with Gollum, the audience will digest it just fine. > There are so many movies where the villains are just plainly evil to the > bone so that there shall be no pity when theyīre finally killed. And > considering the PG-13 rating, I fear PJ could steer towards the shallow > mainstream. But that would be, as you say, "a tragic mistake". Well, he does want to do an R-rated director's cut... ;) ###### From: erk1030@aol.com (Mithrigil ) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum: too wretched for the movie? Lines: 5 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 28 Apr 2000 15:22:00 GMT References: <3906ABCF.A907A164@ibl.de> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000428112200.15494.00000119@ng-fm1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17972 WOULD YOU PEOPLE STOP PUTTING THE LANGUAGE OF MORDOR AS YOUR QUOTE!?!?!?!? It disturbs me. -*Mithrigil* ###### From: raka@s369625.student.uq.edu.au (Adrian Ratnapala) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gollum: too wretched for the movie? References: <3906ABCF.A907A164@ibl.de> <39071d7c$1@rpc1284.daytonoh.ncr.com> Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) NNTP-Posting-Host: 203.62.185.11 Date: 29 Apr 2000 09:40:46 +1000 X-Trace: 29 Apr 2000 09:40:46 +1000, 203.62.185.11 Lines: 36 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!209.50.235.254!europa.netcrusader.net!192.148.253.68!netnews.com!newsfeed2.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!cyclone-west.rr.com!news.rr.com|news-west.rr.com!newsxfer.interpacket.net!news.interpacket.net!news.ausmail.com!raka Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18112 In article <39071d7c$1@rpc1284.daytonoh.ncr.com>, Michael Martin wrote: >I don't think that Gollum's death is so much a punishment as it >is the consequence of his addiction to the Ring. Gollum could >not give it up, and so perished with it rather than live without >it. That and I got the impression at the end of it, that Gollum was thus released from his misery. On my second reading, I decided Gollum's end was happy. > >> After all, Gollum is so wicked and miserable that you canīt but >feel >> compassion for him. And I donīt think there ever was such a >pitiful yet >> evil foe in any movie so far. Normally, good and bad are >clear-cut so >> that the audience can identify itself with the heroes and >loathe the >> enemies. > >I very much think that Tolkien intended for those lines to be >blurred with Gollum. Do you recall Gandalf's conversation with Yes. And this brings me to one of the most intersting things about the movie. All these difficult issues like getting Gollum right, as well as the potention cheese mountains this thread began with are also opportunities. To get them right would take quite some artistic talent. If they succee it, however, they would have acheive many things. They would have to in some subtle way go into the personalities and complexities of characters like Gollum, also they would have to properly steep the audience in the _mood_ of the fantasy world, the rendering things like 'O Elbereth Gilthoniel' non cheese, this is something films like Willow badly fail to do.