From: dwhite3971@aol.com (DWhite3971) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Recommendations please . Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 24 Apr 2000 15:50:02 GMT Organization: AOL, http://www.aol.co.uk Message-ID: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17679 Does anybody have any good SF/Fantasy recommendations ? I have read a lot of Tolkein and Donaldson but every time I try another writer I seem to be unlucky - I`ve tried David Jordan and just couldn`t get in to his writting, I`ve read Terry Brooks Shannara "trilogy" (the first 3 - I know there are more) and they were rather blatant rip-offs of Tolkein. Are David Eddings books good - he does seem to have written a lot of books. How about Robin Hobbs books ? Any recommendations woukd be appreciated. Thanks in advance, Dave ###### Message-ID: <39046ED7.D30EC601@hotmail.com> From: mike phillips X-Sender: "mike phillips" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en]C-gatewaynet (Win98; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 08:57:11 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.119.41.164 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onemain.com X-Trace: nntp1.onemain.com 956592016 216.119.41.164 (Mon, 24 Apr 2000 12:00:16 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 12:00:16 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!europa.netcrusader.net!63.208.208.143!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!nntp1.onemain.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17668 DWhite3971 wrote: > > Does anybody have any good SF/Fantasy recommendations ? I have read a lot of > Tolkein and Donaldson but every time I try another writer I seem to be unlucky > - I`ve tried David Jordan and just couldn`t get in to his writting, I`ve read > Terry Brooks Shannara "trilogy" (the first 3 - I know there are more) and they > were rather blatant rip-offs of Tolkein. IMHO, the best *original* fantasy writer that adheres to principles and background belief system of Tolkien is Stephen Lawhead. In particular, his Song of Albion Trilogy is spectacular. The other writer of Fantasy that does come somewhat close to Tolkienesque style is usually overlooked because his characters are barnyard vermin. I refer to the Redwall series by Brian Jacques. All of them with the possible exception of "Mossflower" are a worthy read. Mike Phillips ###### From: mamaren@jagor.srce.hr (Smileyz) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: 24 Apr 2000 16:37:44 GMT Organization: CARNet, CROATIA Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> Reply-To: mamaren@jagor.srce.hr NNTP-Posting-Host: jagor.srce.hr X-Trace: bagan.srce.hr 956594264 23099 161.53.2.130 (24 Apr 2000 16:37:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@news.carnet.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Apr 2000 16:37:44 GMT User-Agent: slrn/0.9.5.4 (UNIX) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!CARNet.hr!mamaren Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17685 On 24 Apr 2000 15:50:02 GMT, DWhite3971 wrote: > Does anybody have any good SF/Fantasy recommendations ? I have read a lot of > Tolkein and Donaldson but every time I try another writer I seem to be unlucky > - I`ve tried David Jordan and just couldn`t get in to his writting, I`ve read > Terry Brooks Shannara "trilogy" (the first 3 - I know there are more) and they > were rather blatant rip-offs of Tolkein. Are David Eddings books good - he does > seem to have written a lot of books. How about Robin Hobbs books ? Any > recommendations woukd be appreciated. You could try Memory, Sorrow and Thorn trilogy by Tad Williams, I realy liked those books ... btw. he has an official hompage, www.tadwilliams.com -- Accidents don't just happen; they must be carelessly planned. ______ _____ ______ _________________________________________(\ //__(\ //______(\____//______ --------------------------------------\\__ _____/__ _//________------ mamaren@jagor.srce.hr /_______ || , , ||( |> vr! --------------------------------------((____ `\____\/ \\____ `\----- --------------------------------------------`------' `-----' `---'----- ###### From: dailyrich@aol.com (DailyRich) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Lines: 10 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 24 Apr 2000 18:33:14 GMT References: <39046ED7.D30EC601@hotmail.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000424143314.24876.00004043@ng-ch1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17714 > I refer to the Redwall series by Brian Jacques. All >of them with the possible exception of "Mossflower" are a worthy read Enthusiastic agreement there. And I think George R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series is damn good too. Not a lot of magic, and only two of the three books are out (Game of Thrones and Clash of Kings), but it's damn good stuff. DailyRich The Pangea Reunification Army. One World. Literally. ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 32 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 956602289 128.135.12.7 (Mon, 24 Apr 2000 13:51:29 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 13:51:29 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:51:29 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17735 Quoth dwhite3971@aol.com (DWhite3971): > Does anybody have any good SF/Fantasy recommendations ? My favorite fantasy book other than Tolkien is _Dragonsbane_ by Barbara Hambly. Its characters are quite well drawn, and I had a great deal of sympathy for the two main characters as they were faced with difficult decisions about their future. (I've found that in quite a few of Hambly's books, my feelings about science are quite similar to her characters' feelings about magic.) It even has what I suspect is a subtle Tolkien reference: it contains a black dragon named "Morkeleb", which I believe could be translated as "black silver" from Sindarin. :) On the other hand, that's just about the only connection between _Dragonsbane_ and Tolkien that I can think of. It's quite independent. > Are David Eddings books good - he does seem to have written a lot of > books. I went through an Eddings kick once... but then, I went through a Piers Anthony kick, too, and I _very_ thoroughly grew out of that one. I found Eddings fun when I first read his books in, oh, late junior high, I think, but when I've tried going back to them, I've been considerably less impressed. (I'm talking specifically about the Belgariad and the Mallorean here, by the way.) Entire nations in his books have shallow personalities, each being inhabited almost exclusively by one particular type of person. The main characters are in some sense _literally_ stereotypes, as becomes clear by the end of the series. Anyway, I could go on and on, but I'll stop myself here. In short, I wouldn't give Eddings a particularly strong recommendation if you're looking for anything but a somewhat entertaining storyline. Steuard Jensen ###### From: brahms@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 15:00:27 -0400 Organization: Oak Road Systems Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c7.ae.b0.6e X-Server-Date: 24 Apr 2000 19:00:15 GMT X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v2.10 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17727 Said dwhite3971@aol.com (DWhite3971) in rec.arts.books.tolkien: >Does anybody have any good SF/Fantasy recommendations ? I have read a lot of >Tolkein and Donaldson but every time I try another writer I seem to be unlucky I don't know this Tolkein fellow you mention. Personally I have read some Donaldson but didn't much care for him. You might enjoy the fantasy works of J.R.R. Tolkien. You can find a book list in the FAQ; there may be a few books listed there that you haven't read yet. This is a Tolkien newsgroup, so for non-Tolkien recommendations you might do better in a group like rec.arts.sf.written -- Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cleveland, Ohio, USA http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/ Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm Tolkien FAQs: http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien more FAQs: http://www.mindspring.com/~brahms/faqget.htm ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Lines: 63 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: <_d2N4.10765$uJ1.25693@nntpserver.swip.net> Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:36:03 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.45.232 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 956608506 212.151.45.232 (Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:35:06 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:35:06 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17718 DWhite3971 hath written: >Does anybody have any good SF/Fantasy recommendations ? I have read a lot of >Tolkein and Donaldson but every time I try another writer I seem to be unlucky [snip] You are wise to ask a Tolkien newsgroup for advice on such a matter - the fact that we enjoy Tolkien proves that we have good taste. ;-) Now, let me see... L. Sprague de Camp: "Lest Darkness Fall" and "The Goblin Tower" "The Clocks of Iraz" "The Unbeheaded King" "The Fallible Fiend" Avram Davidson: "The Phoenix and the Mirror" and "Vergil in Averno" Ursula K. Le Guin: "A Wizard of Earthsea" "The Tombs of Atuan" "The Fartest Shore" (But stay away from "Tehanu", a fourth, much later book - it is excrement), as well as her "The Left Hand of Darkness" Mike Scott Rohan's "The Winter of the World" series Gordon R. Dickson: "The Dragon and the George" and "The Dragon Knight" Jack Vance - everything by him Roger Zelazny: "Jack of Shadows" and "Wizard World" Clifford Simak is great - he mostly wrote science fiction, but there is also a fantasy book of his called "Where the Evil Dwells" Tom Holt: "Expecting Someone Taller". British - I do not know whether it is for sale in the U. S. Terry Pratchett's Discworld books if you like humorous fantasy. Julian May: "The Many-Colored Land" and "The Golden Torc" "The Non Born King "The Adversary" Fred Saberhagen: "The Broken Lands" and "The Black Mountains" "Changeling Earth" Patricia Wrightson: "The Nargon and the Stars" (Australian - bit of a change from the Americans and the Britons) This was mostly fantasy and borderline fantasy. However, I should also like to recommend the works of Cordwainer Smith, a fantastic creator an an unrivalled future history. Mere words are insufficient to describe his universe with its Underpeople, stroon, pinlighters, Lords of the Instrumentality, congohelium, Daimoni, Norstrilians and so on. He only wrote one novel: "Norstrilia".The special fascination in Smith's zany and beautiful and slightly decadent world comes through in the titles of his short stories: "Alpha Ralpha Boulevard", "Think Blue, Count Two", "The Ballad of Lost C'mell", "Mark Elf", "Under Old Earth", "Drunkboat", "The Crime and the Glory of Commander Suzdal", "Scanners Die in Vain", and so on - every title is fascinating. The funny thing is that some of the titles were actually given by editors - the titles grew out of the stoires,as it were. Öjevind ###### From: Chris Csernica Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 15:23:51 -0700 Organization: Lockheed Martin Corporation Lines: 20 Message-ID: <3904C977.1B36A0A4@ihwy.com> References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> Reply-To: csernica@ihwy.com NNTP-Posting-Host: SVL78ZT836.lmms.lmco.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!blanket.mitre.org!news.tufts.edu!uunet!ffx.uu.net!newsfeed3.global.lmco.com!svlss.lmms.lmco.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17731 DWhite3971 wrote: > > Does anybody have any good SF/Fantasy recommendations ? I have read a lot of > Tolkein and Donaldson but every time I try another writer I seem to be unlucky > - I`ve tried David Jordan and just couldn`t get in to his writting, I`ve read > Terry Brooks Shannara "trilogy" (the first 3 - I know there are more) and they > were rather blatant rip-offs of Tolkein. Are David Eddings books good - he does > seem to have written a lot of books. How about Robin Hobbs books ? Any > recommendations woukd be appreciated. Eddings is pretty mediocre. If you want to waste some time on vaguely amusing lightweight fluff - when, say, you're too tired to read a real book - then his stuff is worth having around. My favorite non-Tolkien authors are Roger Zelazny and Patricia McKillip. Almost anything by Zelazny is worthwhile, and even his poorest efforts are enjoyable. I haven't gotten to read as much of McKillip as I like, but her Riddlemaster trilogy is magnificent. -- Chris Csernica ###### From: dave@trewen.com (Dave Mansell) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 00:02 +0100 (BST) Organization: Citadel Software Limited Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <_d2N4.10765$uJ1.25693@nntpserver.swip.net> Reply-To: dave@trewen.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.131.243.61 X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 956617341 8896984 194.131.243.61 (16 [27272]) X-News-Software: Ameol2 X-URL: http://www.ameol.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!CensurBot.NetScum.Dk!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!194.131.243.61!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17696 In article <_d2N4.10765$uJ1.25693@nntpserver.swip.net>, ojevind.lang@swipnet.se (Öjevind Lång) wrote: > This was mostly fantasy and borderline fantasy. However, I should also > like > to recommend the works of Cordwainer Smith, a fantastic creator an an > unrivalled future history. Mere words are insufficient to describe his > universe with its Underpeople, stroon, pinlighters, Lords of the > Instrumentality, congohelium, Daimoni, Norstrilians and so on. He only > wrote > one novel: "Norstrilia".The special fascination in Smith's zany and > beautiful and slightly decadent world comes through in the titles of his > short stories: "Alpha Ralpha Boulevard", "Think Blue, Count Two", "The > Ballad of Lost C'mell", "Mark Elf", "Under Old Earth", "Drunkboat", "The > Crime and the Glory of Commander Suzdal", "Scanners Die in Vain", and so > on - every title is fascinating. The funny thing is that some of the > titles > were actually given by editors - the titles grew out of the stoires,as > it > were. > > Öjevind Oh yes! Cordwainer Smith! His stories are just poetry... Some of his stuff has recently been republished. Oh and a vote for Zelazny's 'Lord of Light', recently republished. Dave ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:11:43 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 32 Message-ID: <5co9gsc25utug8fgqqs49efa1e33c4t5vj@4ax.com> References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> <_d2N4.10765$uJ1.25693@nntpserver.swip.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!easynews!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17728 On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 22:36:03 +0200, "Öjevind Lång" wrote: >Roger Zelazny: "Jack of Shadows" and "Wizard World" So many people praise Zelazny that I wish that I like his stuff...but I just don't. >This was mostly fantasy and borderline fantasy. However, I should also like >to recommend the works of Cordwainer Smith, a fantastic creator an an >unrivalled future history. Mere words are insufficient to describe his >universe with its Underpeople, stroon, pinlighters, Lords of the >Instrumentality, congohelium, Daimoni, Norstrilians and so on. He only wrote >one novel: "Norstrilia".The special fascination in Smith's zany and >beautiful and slightly decadent world comes through in the titles of his >short stories: "Alpha Ralpha Boulevard", "Think Blue, Count Two", "The >Ballad of Lost C'mell", "Mark Elf", "Under Old Earth", "Drunkboat", "The >Crime and the Glory of Commander Suzdal", "Scanners Die in Vain", and so >on - every title is fascinating. The funny thing is that some of the titles >were actually given by editors - the titles grew out of the stoires,as it >were. Oh, God, YES! Cordwainer Smith (Paul Linebarger) wrote the BEST Science Fantasy ever! I wish I understood all of it, but what I do understand, I love. And he can be screamingly funny, tender, sexy, witty .... and weird. (Someday I'm just gonna give the spellchecker its head and let you figure out what I meant.) the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- Drugs cause amnesia and other things I can't remember... ###### From: "Richard Harding" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 20:49:29 -0500 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed.icl.net!europa.netcrusader.net!63.208.208.143!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-01!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17716 Frank Herbet's "Dune" is good. I also like the "Myst" series by Rand Miller. -- Richard Harding harding28@hotmail.com DWhite3971 wrote in message news:20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com... > Does anybody have any good SF/Fantasy recommendations ? I have read a lot of > Tolkein and Donaldson but every time I try another writer I seem to be unlucky > - I`ve tried David Jordan and just couldn`t get in to his writting, I`ve read > Terry Brooks Shannara "trilogy" (the first 3 - I know there are more) and they > were rather blatant rip-offs of Tolkein. Are David Eddings books good - he does > seem to have written a lot of books. How about Robin Hobbs books ? Any > recommendations woukd be appreciated. > > Thanks in advance, > > Dave ###### Message-ID: <3905109A.7B1BD9B2@worldnet.att.net> From: Kent Reply-To: tokent@yahoo.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 9 Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 03:26:37 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 63.14.34.13 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 956633197 63.14.34.13 (Tue, 25 Apr 2000 03:26:37 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 03:26:37 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.19!wnmasters2!bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17712 DWhite3971 wrote: > > Does anybody have any good SF/Fantasy recommendations ? SF: Robert Heinlein's a must Fantasy: If you'd like to try the darker, more bloody side, give Robert E Howard's Solomon Kane or Kull a try. No where near as rancid and inane as hollywood makes it, trust me... ###### From: "Andrew Wells" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 08:37:08 +0100 Organization: Wellinghall Lines: 25 Message-ID: <8e3i2u$8cgsl$2@fu-berlin.de> References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 237.02-03.quay.dial.plus.net.uk (212.159.73.237) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 956648351 8799125 212.159.73.237 (16 [23037]) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!news-feed1.de1.concert.net!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!237.02-03.quay.dial.plus.net.UK!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17706 DWhite3971 wrote in message <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com>... >Does anybody have any good SF/Fantasy recommendations ? SF: Isaac Asimov's early work Robert A Heinlein's early work Arthur C Clarke Larry Niven Lois McMaster Bujold's "Miles Vorkosigan" books David Weber's "Honor Harrington" books Harry Turtledove Terry Pratchett's "Discworld" books Douglas Adams' "Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy" books Andrew -- Andrew Wells Replace nospam with my first name to reach me ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 04:06:40 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 36 Message-ID: <27517-39055210-88@storefull-255.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAtAhQBzbVBfoLhUZxtDMq0t/4hHbQnZAIVAJiHHHfX4sragrtB0y4Ptcc7FF2H Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17700 Steuard Jensen wrote: >I found Eddings fun when I first read his >books in, oh, late junior high, I think, but >when I've tried going back to them, I've >been considerably less impressed. (I'm >talking specifically about the Belgariad >and the Mallorean here, by the way.) >Entire nations in his books have shallow >personalities, each being inhabited >almost exclusively by one particular type >of person. The main characters are in >some sense _literally_ stereotypes, as >becomes clear by the end of the series. Heh. Well, since I'm reaching the end of _The Seeress of Kell_ again, I might as well jump in here as well. I'll agree with your statement that his characters are somewhat weak. Too many of them have similar personalities, so it's hard to really care about most of them. Belgarath and Polgara seem to stand out the most of the characters, as well as Silk. However, my biggest problem with his books is that his political predjudices seem to show up in the stories. The idea of "conservatives are evil" seems to permeate the works. Most of the bad guys in the story all seem to have some sort of conservative bent, or at least have a strong dislike of change. Of course, as my political POV has been sliding more to the right these days, I tend to find this tendancy somewhat irritaing. All in all, I'd say that Eddings is fairly good commercial fantasy fiction, but not really good enough to be considered literature. --Dave ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Lines: 33 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 25 Apr 2000 14:17:57 GMT References: <8e3i2u$8cgsl$2@fu-berlin.de> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000425101757.01757.00002139@nso-fw.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17715 In article <8e3i2u$8cgsl$2@fu-berlin.de>, "Andrew Wells" writes: >DWhite3971 wrote in message ><20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com>... >>Does anybody have any good SF/Fantasy recommendations ? > > >SF: >Isaac Asimov's early work >Robert A Heinlein's early work >Arthur C Clarke >Larry Niven >Lois McMaster Bujold's "Miles Vorkosigan" books >David Weber's "Honor Harrington" books >Harry Turtledove >Terry Pratchett's "Discworld" books >Douglas Adams' "Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy" books > >Andrew Theodore Sturgeon should not be missed, especially "More then Human." North Atlantic Books is also in the middle of printing his complete short stories in ten volumes, four are out in paper and their up to six in cloth. Not a cluncker in the bunch. Breathe Peace PB "... the essence of myth [is] that it have no taint of allegory to the maker and yet should suggest incipient allegories to the reader..." C. S. Lewis, having read "The Lay of Leithian" ###### From: "Öjevind Lång" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> <_d2N4.10765$uJ1.25693@nntpserver.swip.net> <5co9gsc25utug8fgqqs49efa1e33c4t5vj@4ax.com> Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Lines: 27 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 20:53:04 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.151.98.91 X-Complaints-To: news-abuse@swip.net X-Trace: nntpserver.swip.net 956688725 212.151.98.91 (Tue, 25 Apr 2000 20:52:05 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 20:52:05 MET DST Organization: A Customer of Tele2 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!nntpserver.swip.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17757 the softrat hath written: > "Öjevind Lång" wrote: [snip] >>This was mostly fantasy and borderline fantasy. However, I should also like >>to recommend the works of Cordwainer Smith, a fantastic creator an an >>unrivalled future history. Mere words are insufficient to describe his >>universe with its Underpeople, stroon, pinlighters, Lords of the >>Instrumentality, congohelium, Daimoni, Norstrilians and so on. [snip] >Oh, God, YES! Cordwainer Smith (Paul Linebarger) wrote the BEST >Science Fantasy ever! I wish I understood all of it, but what I do >understand, I love. And he can be screamingly funny, tender, sexy, >witty .... and weird. The possibly funniest line anywhere in his works is the following from "The Ballad of Lost C'mell": "He had a Rembrandt hanging above his bed - the only Rembrandt known in the world, just as he was possibly the only person who could appreciate a Rembrandt". Öjevind ###### From: pahis@voimax.cygnnet.jkl.fi (Juho P. Pahajoki) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: slrn/0.9.6.2 (Linux) Lines: 17 Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 18:56:01 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.165.8.75 X-Trace: read2.inet.fi 956688961 195.165.8.75 (Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:56:01 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:56:01 EET DST Organization: Sonera corp Internet services Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeedZ.netscum.dQ!netscum.int!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!peerfeed.news.psi.net!uunet!ffx.uu.net!nntp.inet.fi!central.inet.fi!inet.fi!read2.inet.fi.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17737 Se oli DWhite3971 joka näin lausui, noin nimesi: >Does anybody have any good SF/Fantasy recommendations ? I have read a lot of I can heartily recommend the books of Orson Scott Card. His Alvin the Maker series is one of the most gripping tales I've read in recent years. The Alvin series takes place in America but the world is quite different, e.g. there is magic etc. I can also recommend his sci-fi books: Ender's game, Speaker for the dead and others that I can't remember. It was a real pain to read Ender's game, since I like to eat while reading but every time I went to make a sandwich I had to run back to the book, because it takes so long to make a decent sandwich and I didn't want to lay it off my hands in the middle. -- I'm A Mutating .sig Virus! Copy Me Into Yours And Join The Fun. ###### From: Eruadan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 19:11:15 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <8e7f04$mus$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> <8e3i2u$8cgsl$2@fu-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.239.8.77 X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Apr 26 19:11:15 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (WinNT; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x37.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 129.239.8.77 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDeruadan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!oleane.net!oleane!newsfeed.icl.net!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17764 In article <8e3i2u$8cgsl$2@fu-berlin.de>, "Andrew Wells" wrote: > Arthur C Clarke Just stay away from "Beyond the Fall of Night" and the "Rama II" trilogy. Eruadan -- <*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*> Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, because to them you are small, insignificant, and taste good with ketchup Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Tamim Khawaja Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 00:59:19 +0300 Organization: Helsingin Yliopisto Lines: 8 Message-ID: <390766B7.EC194033@mappi.helsinki.fi> References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kiikki.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 956786404 18386 128.214.182.49 (26 Apr 2000 22:00:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 26 Apr 2000 22:00:04 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!skynet.be!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed2.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17787 DWhite3971 wrote: > > Does anybody have any good SF/Fantasy recommendations ? Bernard Cornwell the Warlord Chronicles. It tells about King Arthur in a relatively realistic manner. Try also Asimov and Le Guin. Don't forget RE Howard and Michael Moorcock, especially the Elric saga. ###### From: Jamie Armstrong Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 13:48:33 +0100 Organization: http://www.geocities.com/jamie.armstrong/ Lines: 19 Message-ID: <39083721.538CD3F1@durham.ac.uk> References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> <8e3i2u$8cgsl$2@fu-berlin.de> <8e7f04$mus$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: arc-nt04.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed.online.be!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17782 Eruadan wrote: > > In article <8e3i2u$8cgsl$2@fu-berlin.de>, > "Andrew Wells" wrote: > > > Arthur C Clarke > Just stay away from "Beyond the Fall of Night" and the "Rama II" > trilogy. > "Beyond the fall of Night"? Wasn't that also called "The City and the Stars"? I thought that was the best thing he wrote. Which isn't saying much of course. "Rama" was quite good, but I endorse what was said about the sequels - they were dire! Jamie ###### From: "Janet Reedman" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 19:51:24 +0100 Organization: Customer of Planet Online Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8ea2dp$q5a$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> <390766B7.EC194033@mappi.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-111.exorex.dialup.pol.co.uk X-Trace: news8.svr.pol.co.uk 956861689 26794 62.136.94.111 (27 Apr 2000 18:54:49 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: 27 Apr 2000 18:54:49 GMT X-Complaints-To: abuse@theplanet.net X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!news.theplanet.net!newspost.theplanet.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17981 I have read liyterally thousands of fantasy novels over the years, both adult and young adult (which are some of the best, coming closer, in my humble opinion to 'pure' fantasy. I'd recommend Robert Holdstock, Tad Williams, Alan Garner, Susan Cooper, Nancy Springer (her earlier works), Ursula le Guin )again, earlier works). Avoid most of the superfuolious epics that abound. I personally can't bear mercedes \Lackey (preachy and over written) and Wizard First Rule by Terry Goodkind (flat writing, poor grammar.) Janet Tamim Khawaja wrote in message news:390766B7.EC194033@mappi.helsinki.fi... > DWhite3971 wrote: > > > > Does anybody have any good SF/Fantasy recommendations ? > > Bernard Cornwell the Warlord Chronicles. It tells about King Arthur in a > relatively realistic manner. > Try also Asimov and Le Guin. Don't forget RE Howard and Michael > Moorcock, especially the Elric saga. ###### From: Eruadan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 18:58:28 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <8ea2ka$ilo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> <8e3i2u$8cgsl$2@fu-berlin.de> <8e7f04$mus$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39083721.538CD3F1@durham.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.239.8.77 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Apr 27 18:58:28 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (WinNT; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x30.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 129.239.8.77 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDeruadan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!news-x.support.nl!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17903 In article <39083721.538CD3F1@durham.ac.uk>, Jamie Armstrong wrote: > "Beyond the fall of Night"? Wasn't that also called "The City and the > Stars"? Actually, You're thinking oif the original version - "Against the Fall of Night". ACC rewrote that and renamed it TCATS. I was referring to the sequel that he and ?? wrote, called BTFON. > I thought that was the best thing he wrote. Which isn't saying > much of course. ATFON was pretty good. RWR was excellent. The sequels began badly and got worse. There's a discussion on this right now over on r.a.sf.written, if you want to check in. Eruadan -- <*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*> Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, because to them you are small, insignificant, and taste good with ketchup Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: tsignus@aol.com (TSignus) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Lines: 16 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 27 Apr 2000 19:55:49 GMT References: <8ea2dp$q5a$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000427155549.22316.00000092@ng-md1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17984 A couple of my recommendations: 1) The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan- It is a more modern sounding fantasy (War of the sexes, characters speak in American English) and is incredibly long (8+ books of anywhere from 600-1000 pages each). 2) Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn by Tad Williams- Probably the most Tolkienesque fantasy that I've read. 3) The Coldfire Trilogy by C.S. Friedman- Read this if you prefer fantasy with a strong sci-fi bent. The characterization is truly excellent in this trilogy. Nuff said... -TS ###### From: kemosabe@skyenet.net (Masked Man) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 00:17:10 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 24 Message-ID: <3911d7ba.170151185@news.mindspring.com> References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> <_d2N4.10765$uJ1.25693@nntpserver.swip.net> <5co9gsc25utug8fgqqs49efa1e33c4t5vj@4ax.com> Reply-To: kemosabe@skyenet.net NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.8a.98.16 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 28 Apr 2000 00:16:41 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newscore.gigabell.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18032 On Mon, 24 Apr 2000 17:11:43 -0700, the softrat wrote: |Oh, God, YES! Cordwainer Smith (Paul Linebarger) wrote the BEST |Science Fantasy ever! I wish I understood all of it, but what I do |understand, I love. And he can be screamingly funny, tender, sexy, |witty .... and weird. Masked Man------>some call him "a kitchen sink writer" because with his books you get everything but. Most usually love him or hate him; not much middle ground.... -- Robrey, we hardly knew ye! ###### From: kemosabe@skyenet.net (Masked Man) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 00:19:32 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3914d8bd.170409515@news.mindspring.com> References: <8e3i2u$8cgsl$2@fu-berlin.de> <20000425101757.01757.00002139@nso-fw.aol.com> Reply-To: kemosabe@skyenet.net NNTP-Posting-Host: d1.8a.98.16 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 28 Apr 2000 00:19:38 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18033 |Does anybody have any good SF/Fantasy recommendations ? Masked Man----->The best cross SF cross-section I've ever seen is a wonderful book called the Science Fiction Hall of Fame. Wonderful stories, classics of the genre, and one or two of them, classics of American fiction period. I'll let you decide which.... -- Robrey, we hardly knew ye! ###### From: WindSparrow@webtv.net Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 17:24:33 -0700 (MST) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 34 Message-ID: <6912-3908DA41-40@storefull-265.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAuAhUAouXKIJFpY3wpTfjV0HWHnvSpUW8CFQCmrcC0lopDhOIqQAhxioseqdT6qQ== Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.direct.ca!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17841 Original Message: >Group: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: Mon, Apr >24, 2000, 3:50pm (MST+7) From: >dwhite3971@aol.com (DWhite3971) >Recommendations please . >Does anybody have any good >SF/Fantasy recommendations ? I have read a >lot of Tolkein and Donaldson but every time I >try another writer I seem to be unlucky >-I`ve tried David Jordan and just couldn`t get >in to his writting, I`ve read Terry Brooks >Shannara "trilogy" (the first 3 - I know there >are more) and they were rather blatant rip-offs >of Tolkein. Are David Eddings books good - he > does seem to have written a lot of books. >How about Robin Hobbs books ? Any >recommendations woukd be appreciated. >Thanks in advance, >Dave Try Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover books. These are a blending of Science Fiction and Fantasy. A different texture and flavor than Tolkien, but quite enjoyable. Someone else mentioned Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time. I wholeheartedly agree with this recommendation. Very addictive. At first it did not seem like much, but by the time the first hundred pages were done I felt like crying any time I had to put it down. "Did you hear what he said? _Us_lions_. that means him and me. _Us_lions_. . . ." (LWWxCSL) ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 33 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 956899246 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 28 Apr 2000 00:20:46 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 00:20:46 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 05:20:46 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17824 Quoth pahis@voimax.cygnnet.jkl.fi (Juho P. Pahajoki): > Se oli DWhite3971 joka näin lausui, noin nimesi: > >Does anybody have any good SF/Fantasy recommendations ? > I can also recommend his sci-fi books: Ender's game, Speaker for the > dead and others that I can't remember. I guess I was just thinking fantasy when I recommended _Dragonsbane_. I agree completely here: _Ender's Game_ and _Speaker for the Dead_ are two of my very favorite science fiction books (and completely different from each other in tone and style, to boot). I think that Orson Scott Card is one of the best science fiction authors writing today. (Be warned, though: one of his series is pretty much a retelling of the Book of Mormon in a sci-fi setting, which gets a bit irritating toward the end.) > It was a real pain to read Ender's game, since I like to eat while > reading but every time I went to make a sandwich I had to run back > to the book, because it takes so long to make a decent sandwich and > I didn't want to lay it off my hands in the middle. Something quite similar happened to me when I first read this book. I only had time to read a couple of pages the first day after I'd borrowed it, but then the next day I decided to read a bit more before I went to bed. At something like 5:00 am, I set down the book and just stared at the ceiling for at least five or ten minutes, waiting for my heart to stop racing and trying to deal with all the ideas and emotions in the book. For what it's worth, I didn't like the final two books in the Ender series as much as the first two. (I haven't read the new "parallel sequel" yet.) Steuard Jensen ###### From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9e?= Vink Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:53:07 +0200 Organization: A2000 Kabeltelevisie en Telecommunicatie Lines: 23 Message-ID: <39094363.954410B3@cable.a2000.nl> References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: node0c5c.a2000.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: tesla.a2000.nl 956908571 15884 62.108.12.92 (28 Apr 2000 07:56:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@a2000.nl NNTP-Posting-Date: 28 Apr 2000 07:56:11 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!skynet.be!pascal.a2000.nl!newsfeed.a2000.nl!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17836 DWhite3971 wrote: > Does anybody have any good SF/Fantasy recommendations ? I have read a lot of > Tolkein and Donaldson but every time I try another writer I seem to be unlucky > - I`ve tried David Jordan and just couldn`t get in to his writting, I`ve read > Terry Brooks Shannara "trilogy" (the first 3 - I know there are more) and they > were rather blatant rip-offs of Tolkein. Are David Eddings books good - he does > seem to have written a lot of books. How about Robin Hobbs books ? Any > recommendations woukd be appreciated. > Why does nobody mention Guy Gavriel Kay? Because he helped Christopher Tolkien to uncanonize The Silmarillion? Or because you all think he wrote crap? Renée -- Homepage: http://people.a2000.nl/nordho00/home.html ###### From: Jamie Armstrong Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:35:08 +0100 Organization: http://www.geocities.com/jamie.armstrong/ Lines: 19 Message-ID: <3909695C.4897D7@durham.ac.uk> References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: arc-nt06.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17831 Steuard Jensen wrote: > > > I think that Orson Scott Card is one of the best science fiction authors > writing today. Well, while it isn't fair to judge an author from just one book, I read 'Xenocide' and that put me off him for life - an extremely tedious read, which I abandoned half-way through because I was still waiting for anything to happen! Going 200 pages with absolutely nothing of any real interest happening is really too much to ask of your readership, IMO! However, if anyone can suggest a more interesting book by him, I *might* consider giving him a second chance... Jamie ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> <3909695C.4897D7@durham.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 30 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 956930677 128.135.12.7 (Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:04:37 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:04:37 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 14:04:37 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17827 Quoth Jamie Armstrong : > Steuard Jensen wrote: > > I think that Orson Scott Card is one of the best science fiction > > authors writing today. > Well, while it isn't fair to judge an author from just one book, I > read 'Xenocide' and that put me off him for life ... > However, if anyone can suggest a more interesting book by him, I > *might* consider giving him a second chance... Some would say that starting with the third book in a series isn't a terribly fair way of judging an author, either. :) _Xenocide_ is the third book in the Ender series, which I mentioned earlier: as I said, the third and fourth books were not nearly as good (to me) as the first two. If you're particularly eager for a book that has more momentum, then my suggestion that you read _Ender's Game_ is doubly valid. It's one of the most intense books that I can remember reading, and very cool... though you're probably accidentally spoiled one or two surprises by reading one of its sequels first. _Speaker for the Dead_ is a good bit more like _Xenocide_ in style, but (in my opinion) quite a bit better executed: it has more momentum, and I felt a deeper bond with the characters, too. Another Card book that I've enjoyed recently was _Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus_, but I don't think that's quite as much your style. :) Steuard Jensen ###### From: Jamie Armstrong Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:16:33 +0100 Organization: http://www.geocities.com/jamie.armstrong/ Lines: 30 Message-ID: <39099D41.D250F494@durham.ac.uk> References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> <3909695C.4897D7@durham.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: arc-nt06.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!easynet-tele!easynet.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17858 Steuard Jensen wrote: > > Some would say that starting with the third book in a series isn't a > terribly fair way of judging an author, either. :) _Xenocide_ is the > third book in the Ender series, which I mentioned earlier: as I said, > the third and fourth books were not nearly as good (to me) as the > first two. Ah. Oh. Ooopppss! That probaby explains a lot! > > If you're particularly eager for a book that has more momentum, then > my suggestion that you read _Ender's Game_ is doubly valid. It's one > of the most intense books that I can remember reading, and very > cool... though you're probably accidentally spoiled one or two > surprises by reading one of its sequels first. _Speaker for the Dead_ > is a good bit more like _Xenocide_ in style, but (in my opinion) quite > a bit better executed: it has more momentum, and I felt a deeper bond > with the characters, too. > Thanks for those suggestions - I'll give them a try when I get some free time. Jamie ###### From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Lines: 24 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 28 Apr 2000 14:27:18 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000428102718.05637.00000213@ng-cj1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17973 >Some would say that starting with the third book in a series isn't a >terribly fair way of judging an author, either. :) _Xenocide_ is the >third book in the Ender series, which I mentioned earlier: as I said, >the third and fourth books were not nearly as good (to me) as the >first two. Agreed. But the fifth novel -- the parallel novel "Ender's Shadow" is pretty good. It tells Bean's story. Then there's going to be one about Peter Wiggin. Yay! (Sorry, I always wanted to know more about Peter.) The "Tales of Alvin Maker" are also pretty good, a nice homespun tone to them. And a really hard read, emotionally, is "Hart's Hope." I also recently read "Enchantment," which -- aside from a religiously facile ending -- is a really good time travel fantasy. Card is a writer that some people just don't like, though. Without knowing what was disliked about "Xenocide," it's hard to say what would be more suitable. If it was just the plot, or some particular character, then lots of recommendations could be made. On the other hand, if it was his fairly favorable treatment of the Catholic church in the future, that attitude is intrinsic to most of what he writes. --- FernWithy ###### From: Jamie Armstrong Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:47:31 +0100 Organization: http://www.geocities.com/jamie.armstrong/ Lines: 23 Message-ID: <3909A483.BBC4D057@durham.ac.uk> References: <20000428102718.05637.00000213@ng-cj1.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: arc-nt06.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.esat.net!news.heanet.ie!server5.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17868 FernWithy wrote: > > Card is a writer that some people just don't like, though. Without knowing > what was disliked about "Xenocide," it's hard to say what would be more > suitable. If it was just the plot, or some particular character, then lots of > recommendations could be made. It was just the plot - or rather, the lack of a plot as I saw it. I had the impression that Card thought that the point of writing was to write as much as you can, not to write an interesting story. As a result, I just got bored with it and gave up, and believe me it takes a lot for me to not finish reading a book! I'd only recently abandoned James Joyce's Ulysses after a quarter of the way - and I only got that far out of sheer bloody-mindedness! I defy ANYONE to get to the end of that and live! My own view on books is that if I'm not interested in the plot and don't care about the characters after 100 pages there just isn't any point in finishing. Jamie ###### From: tulip111@my-deja.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:05:06 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 47 Message-ID: <8ec9ak$5o$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> <390766B7.EC194033@mappi.helsinki.fi> <8ea2dp$q5a$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.9.195.2 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Apr 28 15:05:06 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Windows 95; DigExt) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x32.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 212.9.195.2 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDtulip111 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!feed2.news.luth.se!luth.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17869 In article <8ea2dp$q5a$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Janet Reedman" wrote: > I have read liyterally thousands of fantasy novels over the years, both > adult and young adult (which are some of the best, coming closer, in my > humble opinion to 'pure' fantasy. > I'd recommend Robert Holdstock, Tad Williams, Alan Garner, Susan Cooper, > Nancy Springer (her earlier works), Ursula le Guin )again, earlier works). > Avoid most of the superfuolious epics that abound. I personally can't bear > mercedes \Lackey (preachy and over written) and Wizard First Rule by Terry > Goodkind (flat writing, poor grammar.) > Janet I'd have to agree with you on most of these - Alan Garner was one of the first fantasy authors I read, and I still re-read his books. Loved Susan Cooper's 'Dark is Rising' sequence. Like Michael Ende's 'Neverending Story' and 'Momo'. I've also read way more than I can list here, or even remember, but I'll try a few. I'd add recommendations for Diane Wynne Jones (and if anyone can remember the title of the book she wrote about fantasy fiction, I'd love a reminder. Hilarious and spot on critique of fantasy genre). I've also enjoyed Kathryn Kristine Rusch, both SF and fantasy - very dark take on elves, in contrast to most fantasy. Neil Stephenson writes great SF, especially 'Snowcrash' which has some fascinating ideas about language/linguistics. I enjoy most of Iain Banks SF, though I prefer his non-SF writing. Some great collections of short fantasy based on re- interpretations of traditional fairy tales. Can't remember the editors, but titles like 'Snow White, Blood Red' and so on. Liked Neil Gaiman's 'Neverwhere' very much too. I notice alot of people like Orson Scott Card, but I have to say I prefer his short fiction. Wasn't 'Ender's Game' originally a short story? Alot of my favourite SF is only available in collections - I'd recommend 'The Best of the Nebulas' editied by Ben Bova (I think?) for an overview of peer-selected SF writing both long and short. Tamsin Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Colonel Panic Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Organization: Absinthesis Studios Message-ID: References: <20000428102718.05637.00000213@ng-cj1.aol.com> <3909A483.BBC4D057@durham.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 22 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:00:32 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.26.46.189 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onemain.com X-Trace: nntp3.onemain.com 956937668 216.26.46.189 (Fri, 28 Apr 2000 12:01:08 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 12:01:08 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!feeder.qis.net!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!nntp3.onemain.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17813 On Stardate Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:47:31 +0100, Jamie Armstrong said to Mr. Spock: > I'd only recently abandoned James Joyce's >Ulysses after a quarter of the way - and I only got that far out of >sheer bloody-mindedness! I defy ANYONE to get to the end of that and >live! Twice! Finnegan's Wake, also - but I barely escaped with my life on that one. Reg'ds, Terry the Lit-Crit geek. -- The two of them trek untraveled country: wolf-haunted heights and windy headlands, the frightful fen-path where falling torrents dive into darkness stream beneath stone... ###### From: Jamie Armstrong Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 17:40:45 +0100 Organization: http://www.geocities.com/jamie.armstrong/ Lines: 37 Message-ID: <3909BF0D.3080B17C@durham.ac.uk> References: <20000428102718.05637.00000213@ng-cj1.aol.com> <3909A483.BBC4D057@durham.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: er151-27.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17864 Colonel Panic wrote: > > On Stardate Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:47:31 +0100, Jamie Armstrong > said to Mr. Spock: > > > I'd only recently abandoned James Joyce's > >Ulysses after a quarter of the way - and I only got that far out of > >sheer bloody-mindedness! I defy ANYONE to get to the end of that and > >live! > > > > Twice! You... you're inhuman! Why the second time? Was it some sort of horrific self-punishment?!! Or had you're brain saved itself by erasing the memory of it, and you had to go through it all again? > Finnegan's Wake, also - but I barely escaped with my life on > that one. > I haven't looked at that yet. My attempt on Ulysses took place two summers ago, and I'm still in recovery. I'm only reading nice and straight forward books at the moment - one's without anything remotely resembling... STREAM OF CONSCIOUSNESS!!! Nevertheless, I salute you for your brave efforts - there must be some sort of award for your endeavours! Jamie ###### From: Colonel Panic Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Organization: Absinthesis Studios Message-ID: References: <20000428102718.05637.00000213@ng-cj1.aol.com> <3909A483.BBC4D057@durham.ac.uk> <3909BF0D.3080B17C@durham.ac.uk> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 56 Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:54:58 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 216.26.46.189 X-Complaints-To: abuse@onemain.com X-Trace: nntp3.onemain.com 956944561 216.26.46.189 (Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:56:01 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:56:01 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!nntp3.onemain.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18101 On Stardate Fri, 28 Apr 2000 17:40:45 +0100, Jamie Armstrong said to Mr. Spock: > > >Colonel Panic wrote: >> >> On Stardate Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:47:31 +0100, Jamie Armstrong >> said to Mr. Spock: >> >> > I'd only recently abandoned James Joyce's >> >Ulysses after a quarter of the way - and I only got that far out of >> >sheer bloody-mindedness! I defy ANYONE to get to the end of that and >> >live! >> >> >> > > >> Twice! > >You... you're inhuman! >Why the second time? Was it some sort of horrific self-punishment?!! Or >had you're brain saved itself by erasing the memory of it, and you had >to go through it all again? I dunno, I think I actually /liked/ it! Sure, it's a tortuous read but it keeps me thinking constantly whilst I try to digest the many levels of meaning in it. Sick, I know, but I is who I is! >> Finnegan's Wake, also - but I barely escaped with my life on >> that one. >> >I haven't looked at that yet. My attempt on Ulysses took place two >summers ago, and I'm still in recovery. If you couldn't even finish Ulysses I wouldn't even advise that you OPEN a copy of Finnegan's Wake. Your brain will melt, as it's impossible to read on a literal level at ALL. Ulysses was fairly cryptic but the Wake is maddeningly obscure. >Nevertheless, I salute you for your brave efforts - there must be some >sort of award for your endeavours! Yes, there is indeed a reward - but it's nothing that a few rounds of Electroshock therapy can't cure Reg'ds, Terry -- The two of them trek untraveled country: wolf-haunted heights and windy headlands, the frightful fen-path where falling torrents dive into darkness stream beneath stone... ###### From: m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: 30 Apr 2000 07:27:13 GMT Organization: ABC-Klubben Lines: 33 Message-ID: <8egn8h$aum$1@oden.abc.se> References: <20000428102718.05637.00000213@ng-cj1.aol.com> <3909A483.BBC4D057@durham.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: atle.abc.se X-Trace: oden.abc.se 957079633 11222 195.17.72.10 (30 Apr 2000 07:27:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@abc.se NNTP-Posting-Date: 30 Apr 2000 07:27:13 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!nyc-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!colt.net!newspeer.highwayone.net!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!uninett.no!news-feed.ifi.uio.no!uio.no!news.netg.se!news5.global-ip.net!oden.abc.se!atle!m9233 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17835 Colonel Panic (absinthe@teleport.com) wrote: : On Stardate Fri, 28 Apr 2000 15:47:31 +0100, Jamie Armstrong : said to Mr. Spock: : > I'd only recently abandoned James Joyce's : >Ulysses after a quarter of the way - and I only got that far out of : >sheer bloody-mindedness! I defy ANYONE to get to the end of that and : >live! : : Twice! What makes Ulysses worth reading (well one thing anyway) is that Joyce is so FUNNY. Some chapters had me laughing so hard it hurt on every page. But to tie in to fantasy, perhaps the reason fantasy fans don't enjoy books like Ulysses has to do with the basic orientations of the language in the two genres. Fantasy writing strikes me as very visual, whereas stream-of consciousness writing is more aural, i.e. based on a sensuous experience of the language itself. There's nothing wrong with preferring one or the other, but I get a bit miffed when people who only like one write off the other as either 'pretentious modernist crap' on the one hand, or 'fantasy trash' on the other. I like both, but then I also liked Tehanu best of the Earthsea 'trilogy' so I should probably crawl back under my rock now :-) regards, --Rett ###### From: Flame of the West Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 03:27:12 -0400 Lines: 14 Message-ID: <390D31CC.3DD90970@erols.com> References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> Reply-To: jsolinas@erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: X2G4NRihx6ls8QtArHVUmgC0T32Vvca9cQ1kczu82m8= X-Complaints-To: abuse@rcn.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 May 2000 07:34:11 GMT X-Accept-Language: en X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!diablo.theplanet.net!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17812 DWhite3971 wrote: > Does anybody have any good SF/Fantasy recommendations? Well, those helpful responses pretty much answer your question. I suggest you read ALL of the books suggested in this thread. See you in 30 years. ;-) -- -- FotW Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-Earth. ###### From: dwhite3971@aol.com (DWhite3971) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Lines: 8 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 01 May 2000 08:29:11 GMT References: <390D31CC.3DD90970@erols.com> Organization: AOL, http://www.aol.co.uk Message-ID: <20000501042911.28989.00000529@ng-fk1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17986 Thank you everyone who replied to my post. There`s certainly a lot for me to go on. I`m sorry I spelt Tolkien`s name wrong in the initial post ! I also called Robert Jordan David ! It must have been a bad day. Thanks again, Dave ###### From: Jamie Armstrong Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 15:50:56 +0100 Organization: http://www.geocities.com/jamie.armstrong/ Lines: 55 Message-ID: <390D99D0.87BCF3B3@durham.ac.uk> References: <20000428102718.05637.00000213@ng-cj1.aol.com> <3909A483.BBC4D057@durham.ac.uk> <8egn8h$aum$1@oden.abc.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: arc-nt05.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.icl.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!easynet-melon!easynet-tele!easynet.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17877 Thiele Everett wrote: > > > What makes Ulysses worth reading (well one thing anyway) is that Joyce > is so FUNNY. Some chapters had me laughing so hard it hurt on every > page. > Really? Hmmm!!! It made me go cross-eyed trying to read it - it's such a complicated obscure book that I'm convinced that only someone who knows turn of the century Dublin intimately, has a superb knowledge of the Greek myths, and basically who IS James Joyce can actually fully comprehend it. Therefore, I see it as being a completely selfish book written purely for the entertainment of Joyce, who knew that most of what he wrote would never be properly understood. Just my 10p's worth! > But to tie in to fantasy, perhaps the reason fantasy fans don't enjoy > books like Ulysses has to do with the basic orientations of the language > in the two genres. Fantasy writing strikes me as very visual, whereas > stream-of consciousness writing is more aural, i.e. based on a sensuous > experience of the language itself. There's nothing wrong with preferring > one or the other, but I get a bit miffed when people who only like one > write off the other as either 'pretentious modernist crap' on the one > hand, or 'fantasy trash' on the other. I like both, but then I also liked > Tehanu best of the Earthsea 'trilogy' so I should probably crawl back > under my rock now :-) > Oh, don't get me wrong - I love reading, and I'm not a particularly die-hard fanatic of fantasy as a genre - except when it comes to Tolkien of course! But I do like books that are interesting to read, and Ulysses just had no interest for me. I had previously read Dubliners for A-Level, and didn't particularly like it either. I think I just don't like Joyce's style - funnily enough I would actually use the term 'pretentious modern crap' to describe his so-called masterpiece! When it comes to stream of conciousness, I thought that Mervyn Peake did a far superior job in Gormenghast than Joyce did, because he didn't drag it on for page after page after interminable page. It was just one section of the book, and it did have relevance to the story. But I never write off a whole genre of writing, or music, or anything - it just isn't fair. There are good books and there are bad books, and each must be judged by their merits. I once made the mistake of catagorising books I hadn't read, until I saw the BBCs adaptation of 'Pride and Prejudice', and realised that I had been missing out on some of the greatest books ever written. Jane Austen is now one of my favourite authors (probably second only to Tolkien!). Jamie ###### From: Jamie Armstrong Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 16:07:58 +0100 Organization: http://www.geocities.com/jamie.armstrong/ Lines: 16 Message-ID: <390D9DCE.16F3550E@durham.ac.uk> References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> <3905109A.7B1BD9B2@worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: arc-nt05.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17875 Kent wrote: > > DWhite3971 wrote: > > > > Does anybody have any good SF/Fantasy recommendations ? > > SF: Robert Heinlein's a must > Actually, probably the best Sci-Fi story I've ever read was 'The Demolished Man', by Alfred Bester - it totally blew me away! The best thing about it is that althought t was written in the 1950's it's virtually timeless. Jamie ###### From: m9233@abc.se (Thiele Everett) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: 1 May 2000 18:44:12 GMT Organization: ABC-Klubben Lines: 91 Message-ID: <8ekj9s$gka$1@oden.abc.se> References: <20000428102718.05637.00000213@ng-cj1.aol.com><3909A483.BBC4D057@durham.ac.uk> <8egn8h$aum$1@oden.abc.se> <390D99D0.87BCF3B3@durham.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: atle.abc.se X-Trace: oden.abc.se 957206652 17034 195.17.72.10 (1 May 2000 18:44:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@abc.se NNTP-Posting-Date: 1 May 2000 18:44:12 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!192.148.253.68!netnews.com!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.netg.se!news5.global-ip.net!oden.abc.se!atle!m9233 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17834 Jamie Armstrong (Jamie.Armstrong@durham.ac.uk) wrote: : Thiele Everett wrote: : > : > : > What makes Ulysses worth reading (well one thing anyway) is that Joyce : > is so FUNNY. Some chapters had me laughing so hard it hurt on every : > page. : > : Really? : Hmmm!!! : It made me go cross-eyed trying to read it - it's such a complicated : obscure book that I'm convinced that only someone who knows turn of the : century Dublin intimately, has a superb knowledge of the Greek myths, : and basically who IS James Joyce can actually fully comprehend it. And in this regard it resembles Tolkien's works. I love the lore, myths, background, subtle and not-so-subtle parody, wordplay and punning, and the minute attention to detail of setting which Tolkien and Joyce put into their big books. That's what makes them come alive as worlds, zones of the imagination which are so real that they seem discovered rather than invented. And believe it or not, once you start to get the 'hang' of _Ulysses_ it turns out to be full of humor; it's a doggone riot! However I agree that the resistance threshold is very high. I started it several times and couldn't get past the first few chapters because I wasn't ready for it. Later when I really read it, something in me had said 'yes' to the book in advance; I desired the supersensuous language, and Joyce's learning and wit. I used Stanly Sultan's _The Argument of Ulysses_ as a kind of cheat-sheet which helped a lot. And so I lived in _Ulysses_ for about half a year. In fact it was the second best read of my life, #1 being--you guessed it--my virgin reading of LotR when I was twelve. But I agree that there is no point in reading a book just because everyone tells you that you *ought* to. Then the initial resistance often just swells until you throw it down in disqust and hatred. The same thing sometimes happens to people who get LotR shoved into their hands by enthusiastic friends, relatives and spouses. No matter how good the book is, if you don't feel you _want_ to like it, it's going to suck. : Therefore, I see it as being a completely selfish book written purely : for the entertainment of Joyce, who knew that most of what he wrote : would never be properly understood. That may be how you see it, but many people have enjoyed it since then, SO WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH YOU, EH?! (caps for joking mock-anger) : But I never write off a whole genre of writing, or music, or anything - : it just isn't fair. There are good books and there are bad books, and : each must be judged by their merits. I once made the mistake of : catagorising books I hadn't read, You just made it again, by dissing _Ulysses_ without having really read it ;-) : until I saw the BBCs adaptation of : 'Pride and Prejudice', and realised that I had been missing out on some : of the greatest books ever written. Jane Austen is now one of my : favourite authors (probably second only to Tolkien!). Agreed! Most of those classics they want you to read in school, and that people think are utter boreville, turn out to be fantastic if you give them a chance. Books usually don't become classics by being dull. Anyway, I don't mean to try to claim that you *must* like thick writing like in Ulysses. If you prefer clear, narrative-type writing like in Jane Austen, then that's a fair choice to make. I wish you all the best. An afterthought: As for what seems to be the really important difference between Joyce and Tolkien: Joyce renounced his Catholic background and wrote a satirical, mock-heroic book about the erosion of values. Tolkien would seem to be Joyce's complete opposite, trying rather to reinvest modern life with a heroic ethic (or at least musing somewhat nostalgically over the dying past, rather than joyously bashing it to bits as Joyce does) regards, --Rett ###### From: dave@trewen.com (Dave Mansell) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 20:09 +0100 (BST) Organization: Citadel Software Limited Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <390D9DCE.16F3550E@durham.ac.uk> Reply-To: dave@trewen.com NNTP-Posting-Host: host62-7-83-43.btinternet.com (62.7.83.43) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 957208186 9769072 62.7.83.43 (16 [27272]) X-News-Software: Ameol2 X-URL: http://www.ameol.com Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!grolier!oleane.net!oleane!jussieu.fr!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!host62-7-83-43.btinternet.COM!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17823 In article <390D9DCE.16F3550E@durham.ac.uk>, Jamie.Armstrong@durham.ac.uk (Jamie Armstrong) wrote: > > > Kent wrote: > > > > DWhite3971 wrote: > > > > > > Does anybody have any good SF/Fantasy recommendations ? > > > > SF: Robert Heinlein's a must > > > Actually, probably the best Sci-Fi story I've ever read was 'The > Demolished Man', by Alfred Bester - it totally blew me away! The best > thing about it is that althought t was written in the 1950's it's > virtually timeless. > > Jamie Also "Tiger, Tiger" aka "The Stars my Destination" by the same author. Two great novels.... Dave ###### From: dasmith@space.mit.edu (Don A. Smith) Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> Organization: MIT Center for Space Research Originator: dasmith@sybil Date: 01 May 2000 19:24:59 GMT Lines: 10 Message-ID: <390dda0b$0$10901@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: SYBIL.MIT.EDU X-Trace: dreaderd 957209099 10901 18.75.0.131 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.icl.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!dreaderd!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18058 > (Be warned, though: one of his series is pretty much a > retelling of the Book of Mormon in a sci-fi setting, which gets a bit > irritating toward the end.) Really? Which one is that? I thought I had almost all Card's novels, (except Saints and a couple of the "Call of Earth" books) but I've never read the Book of Mormon, so maybe I didn't recognize it. Don ###### From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 01 May 2000 19:55:09 GMT References: <390dda0b$0$10901@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000501155509.02291.00000588@ng-fx1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17988 >Really? Which one is that? I thought I had almost all Card's >novels, (except Saints and a couple of the "Call of Earth" books) >but I've never read the Book of Mormon, so maybe I didn't recognize it. > It's the Homecoming series (which "Call to Earth" is part of). It's a conscious science fictionalization of the BofM, just as the Tales of Alvin Maker are ar a fantasy version of the life of Joseph Smith. --- FernWithy ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Lines: 39 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 May 2000 03:56:24 GMT References: <390D9DCE.16F3550E@durham.ac.uk> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000501235624.04046.00002204@nso-fu.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18169 In article <390D9DCE.16F3550E@durham.ac.uk>, Jamie Armstrong writes: >Actually, probably the best Sci-Fi story I've ever read was 'The >Demolished Man', by Alfred Bester - it totally blew me away! The best >thing about it is that althought t was written in the 1950's it's >virtually timeless. > >Jamie > > I really liked 'The Demolished Man' but enjoyed 'The Stars My Destination' even more and would have thought that it should have gotten a Hugo except that DM got the _first_ Hugo only a few years before. Bester does an incredibly good job at giving you background to his futures while staying away from any expository side writting to explain the details. Having "Presteign of Presteign" (read Press-Stain, as in dry cleaning and "Sidney Koday who would one day be Kodak of Kodak", et al is all you really need to understand the Capitalistic Clan/Fuedal system that operates in 'The Stars My Destination'. He has more exposition in 'Demolished Man' and that's probably why I like it less in comparison. Both are in my top ten, but I never rank anything more specifically than that as the ranks might change as my current interests vary. Gully Foyle is my name And Terra is my natian. Deep space is my dwelling place, The stars my Destination. Breathe Peace PB "... the essence of myth [is] that it have no taint of allegory to the maker and yet should suggest incipient allegories to the reader..." C. S. Lewis, having read "The Lay of Leithian" ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Lines: 28 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder07.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 May 2000 03:56:25 GMT References: <20000501155509.02291.00000588@ng-fx1.aol.com> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000501235625.04046.00002205@nso-fu.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18171 In article <20000501155509.02291.00000588@ng-fx1.aol.com>, fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) writes: >>Really? Which one is that? I thought I had almost all Card's >>novels, (except Saints and a couple of the "Call of Earth" books) >>but I've never read the Book of Mormon, so maybe I didn't recognize it. >> > >It's the Homecoming series (which "Call to Earth" is part of). It's a >conscious science fictionalization of the BofM, just as the Tales of Alvin >Maker are ar a fantasy version of the life of Joseph Smith. Well, I did not know that but it makes sense now. I read the first three Homecoming books but the thirsd was a real struggle to keep interested in. I liked Card's 'The Worthing Saga' but the next thing I read was 'Homecoming' and I never touched him again. Maybe I'll try the 'Ender' books, lots a people seem to like them and if I give OSC a second chance it sounds like those are the best place to reaquaint myself. Breathe Peace PB "... the essence of myth [is] that it have no taint of allegory to the maker and yet should suggest incipient allegories to the reader..." C. S. Lewis, having read "The Lay of Leithian" ###### X-Originating-Host: 209.30.64.251 Organization: http://www.remarq.com: The World's Usenet/Discussions Start Here Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Lines: 15 From: YosemiteSamwiseGamgee Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Message-ID: <07419b80.dce88a93@usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com> References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> Bytes: 611 X-Wren-Trace: eJ24kJGIz4XOz4CWkI3Lw6+IgZmLkZOFnYXSzMTQyo7C1YvI3Y/dwg== Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 01:37:22 -0700 NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.0.2.45 X-Complaints-To: wrenabuse@remarq.com X-Trace: WReNphoon4 957256693 10.0.2.45 (Tue, 02 May 2000 01:38:13 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 01:38:13 PDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!WReNclone!WReNphoon4.POSTED!WReN!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18177 As a long time lurker in this group, I was surprised on two items that immediately came to mind on this string that no one has mentioned yet: Fantasy--THE ONCE AND FUTURE KING by T.H. White. Sci-Fi--Everything by John Varley, my personal favorites being GOLDEN GLOBE and STEEL BEACHES. All of his meager output is very good IMHO. As someone mentioned, this is a nice list if you have a few decades to kill. YosemiteSamwiseGamgee, Hemp Gardner * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! ###### From: dasmith@space.mit.edu (Don A. Smith) Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000501155509.02291.00000588@ng-fx1.aol.com> <20000501235625.04046.00002205@nso-fu.aol.com> Organization: MIT Center for Space Research Originator: dasmith@sybil Date: 02 May 2000 14:15:36 GMT Lines: 15 Message-ID: <390ee308$0$10887@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: SYBIL.MIT.EDU X-Trace: dreaderd 957276936 10887 18.75.0.131 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!dreaderd!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18179 >It's the Homecoming series (which "Call to Earth" is part of). It's a >conscious science fictionalization of the BofM, just as the Tales of Alvin >Maker are ar a fantasy version of the life of Joseph Smith. Really? Even with all that "witchery" stuff and the alternate political scene? Oh, I guess Alvin's Crystal City is going to be SLC, huh? Is the gold plow supposed to be akin to those gold tablets? Still, it seems a bit of a tenuous connection, despite the last name. ;-) And I've only read the first two Homecoming books. Of course, I've never read the BoM, so I probably wouldn't recognize the analogies if they bit me. Don ###### Message-ID: <390F14FA.37B1@llama.pilz.cack> Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 13:48:42 -0400 From: bkrrrrr Organization: University of Nebraska at Amherst X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; SunOS 5.6 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: lmtsun.astro.umass.edu X-Trace: 2 May 2000 13:48:42 -0500, lmtsun.astro.umass.edu Lines: 11 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!news.umass.edu!oit.umass.edu!lmtsun.astro.umass.edu Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18138 DWhite3971 wrote: > > Does anybody have any good SF/Fantasy recommendations ? In general: http://www.astro.umass.edu/~rownd/books.htm And avoid Eddings if at all possible. :) bkr ###### From: "j.jones" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 20:10:56 +0100 Organization: Opal Telecom, Irlam, Manchester UK Lines: 18 Message-ID: <8enc3k$179$1@news-1.isp.opaltelecom.co.uk> References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> <390766B7.EC194033@mappi.helsinki.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem-238-32-60-62.vip.uk.com X-Trace: news-1.isp.opaltelecom.co.uk 957297588 1257 62.60.32.238 (2 May 2000 19:59:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news-1.isp.opaltelecom.co.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 May 2000 19:59:48 GMT X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.bme.hu!news.iif.hu!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.ision.net!ision!diablo.theplanet.net!colt.net!Pollux.Teleglobe.net!news-1.isp.opaltelecom.co.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18285 Tamim Khawaja wrote in message news:390766B7.EC194033@mappi.helsinki.fi... > DWhite3971 wrote: > > > > Does anybody have any good SF/Fantasy recommendations ? > > Bernard Cornwell the Warlord Chronicles. It tells about King Arthur in a > relatively realistic manner. These are historical novels, rather than fantasy. Really excellent, though - highly recommended. -- John Jones Birmingham, England ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ####### From: fernwithy@aol.com (FernWithy) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Lines: 15 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder06.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 02 May 2000 20:24:42 GMT References: <390ee308$0$10887@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Message-ID: <20000502162442.06859.00000908@ng-ca1.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!do.de.uu.net!newsfeed.esat.net!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.skycache.com!Cidera!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey05.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18242 >Really? Even with all that "witchery" stuff and the alternate political >scene? Oh, I guess Alvin's Crystal City is going to be SLC, huh? Is >the gold plow supposed to be akin to those gold tablets? Still, it seems >a bit of a tenuous connection, despite the last name. ;-) > That actually came from something Card said, though I agree that the connection seems to, er, frequently get away from him. But all the trials, everyone out to get him, foreseen death in Carthage, etc... that's deliberate. Crystal City is probably more Nauvoo. FW --- FernWithy ###### From: Tamim Khawaja Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 21:40:09 +0300 Organization: Helsingin Yliopisto Lines: 19 Message-ID: <39107289.8FD1B459@mappi.helsinki.fi> References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> <390766B7.EC194033@mappi.helsinki.fi> <8enc3k$179$1@news-1.isp.opaltelecom.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: kaleeri.in.helsinki.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: oravannahka.helsinki.fi 957379251 24396 128.214.189.17 (3 May 2000 18:40:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.helsinki.fi NNTP-Posting-Date: 3 May 2000 18:40:51 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newscore.gigabell.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed3.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18355 "j.jones" wrote: > > Tamim Khawaja wrote in message > news:390766B7.EC194033@mappi.helsinki.fi... > > DWhite3971 wrote: > > > > > > Does anybody have any good SF/Fantasy recommendations ? > > > > Bernard Cornwell the Warlord Chronicles. It tells about King Arthur in a > > relatively realistic manner. > > These are historical novels, rather than fantasy. Really excellent, > though - highly recommended. The style is quite "fantasyish". I think people who enjoy fantasy would also like these. Tamim ###### From: Jamie Armstrong Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 21:15:35 +0100 Organization: http://www.geocities.com/jamie.armstrong/ Lines: 42 Message-ID: <391088E7.3A899CCA@durham.ac.uk> References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> <8e3i2u$8cgsl$2@fu-berlin.de> <8e7f04$mus$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39083721.538CD3F1@durham.ac.uk> <8ea2ka$ilo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: er151-13.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18336 Eruadan wrote: > > In article <39083721.538CD3F1@durham.ac.uk>, > Jamie Armstrong wrote: > > > "Beyond the fall of Night"? Wasn't that also called "The City and the > > Stars"? > > Actually, You're thinking of the original version - "Against the Fall > of Night". So I am! > ACC rewrote that and renamed it TCATS. I was referring to the sequel > that he and ?? > wrote, called BTFON. > And that isn't worth reading? Okay, I'll not bother with it - I enjoyed the first one too much. > > I thought that was the best thing he wrote. Which isn't saying > > much of course. > > ATFON was pretty good. RWR was excellent. The sequels began badly and > got worse. Ohhhhh yes! The amazing thing is that I read all three of them! It was on the recommendation of a friend. Not one of her better choices, I must say... > There's a discussion on this right now over on r.a.sf.written, if you > want to check > in. > Hmmm... bit late now methinks! And besides, I haven't got any more spare time! Jamie ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . References: <20000501155509.02291.00000588@ng-fx1.aol.com> <20000501235625.04046.00002205@nso-fu.aol.com> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 23 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 957408184 128.135.12.7 (Wed, 03 May 2000 21:43:04 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 21:43:04 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 02:43:04 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18311 Quoth pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB): > Maybe I'll try the 'Ender' books, lots a people seem to like them > and if I give OSC a second chance it sounds like those are the best > place to reaquaint myself. As must already be obvious, I approve. :) As I think I said earlier, _Ender's Game_ is a very intense and fast paced book, in which development of characters is given less emphasis than development of background and plot. (There _is_ some character development, mind you, and keep in mind that we're talking almost exclusively about _kids_: even in real life, children don't usually have extremely complicated personalities... or at least, not complicated in the ways usually featured in literature about adults. For what it's worth, I felt quite a bit of kinship with Ender when I read the book, and with others in the story: Card does a pretty good job of reflecting a "gifted" kid's world.) In many ways, _Speaker for the Dead_ is the exact opposite of _Ender's Game_ in these ways, so if you don't like the first book, don't give up on the second one. They're very different... but both are, in my opinion, among the best science fiction that I've read. Steuard Jensen ###### From: Eruadan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 06:37:29 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 43 Message-ID: <8er5r9$1pg$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> <8e3i2u$8cgsl$2@fu-berlin.de> <8e7f04$mus$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39083721.538CD3F1@durham.ac.uk> <8ea2ka$ilo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <391088E7.3A899CCA@durham.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.62.152.4 X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu May 04 06:37:29 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.01; Windows 98) X-Http-Proxy: 1.1 x43.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 166.62.152.4 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDeruadan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18343 In article <391088E7.3A899CCA@durham.ac.uk>, Jamie Armstrong wrote: > > wrote, called BTFON. > > > And that isn't worth reading? Not in my estimation. It was _strange_, but not as bad as the Rama II series. > Ohhhhh yes! > The amazing thing is that I read all three of them! > It was on the recommendation of a friend. Not one of her better choices, > I must say... You mean you read all three of the Rama II sequels? If so, I pity you. I did the same thing, but not on anyone's recomendation, so I only have myself to blame. But the sad thing I found was that they could have been so much better, with just a minor bit of tweaking in the storyline. Well - to be honest - _more_ than minor. But it was _doable_. > Hmmm... bit late now methinks! And besides, I haven't got any more spare > time! You think I have that much? I'm running a 14.4k modem. :( It takes me longer to access a message than it does to read it. Eruadan -- <*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*> Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, because to them you are small, insignificant, and taste good with ketchup Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### From: Geraldine Louise F Newman Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 14:38:50 +0100 Organization: University Of St Andrews Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> <6912-3908DA41-40@storefull-265.iap.bryant.webtv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pesto.st-and.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: sparkie.st-andrews.ac.uk 957533934 16860 138.251.31.9 (5 May 2000 13:38:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sparkie.st-andrews.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Date: 5 May 2000 13:38:54 GMT X-Sender: glfn@st-andrews.ac.uk In-Reply-To: <6912-3908DA41-40@storefull-265.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!news.datacomm.ch!newsmaster-01.atnet.at!atnet.at!newsrouter.chello.at!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!bignews.mediaways.net!newsfeed.icl.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server6.netnews.ja.net!st-and!pesto!glfn Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18484 I have read many fantasy books and have just read the lord of the rings trilogy again! However more recently I have been reading Katherine Kerrs series starting with the Deverry books all the way through ten novels. I found that the integration of the single story that spans the entire series was breath taking and I can not wait to read her next few books. Gerry ###### From: Douglas Henderson Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 09:52:50 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 32 Message-ID: <3912D232.9D18983D@mindspring.com> References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> <07419b80.dce88a93@usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.48.91 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 5 May 2000 13:52:20 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newshunter!cosy.sbg.ac.at!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!nmaster.kpnqwest.net!npeer.kpnqwest.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18445 YosemiteSamwiseGamgee wrote: > > As a long time lurker in this group, I was surprised on two items > that immediately came to mind on this string that no one has > mentioned yet: Fantasy--THE ONCE AND FUTURE KING by T.H. White. > Sci-Fi--Everything by John Varley, my personal favorites being > GOLDEN GLOBE and STEEL BEACHES. All of his meager output is very > good IMHO. > > As someone mentioned, this is a nice list if you have a few > decades to kill. > > YosemiteSamwiseGamgee, > Hemp Gardner > > * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network * > The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free! Some that are on my reread at intervals list (and which, in some ways, I even prefer to LOTR) are: Patricia McKillip The Forgotten Beasts of Eld Riddlemaster of Hed Trilogy Lord Dunsany The King of Elfland's Daughter his fantastic stories CJ Cherryh Tree of Swords and Jewels The Dreamstone ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> <6912-3908DA41-40@storefull-265.iap.bryant.webtv.net> Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Lines: 10 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 01:54:31 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.113.223 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 957578071 12.78.113.223 (Sat, 06 May 2000 01:54:31 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 01:54:31 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!naxos.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!newsfeed.eurocyber.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!wn3feed!worldnet.att.net!wnmasters3!bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18548 "Geraldine Louise F Newman" wrote in message news:Pine.SOL.3.96.1000505143500.3552B-100000@pesto... > However more recently I have been reading Katherine Kerrs series > starting with the Deverry books all the way through ten novels. Excellent books. ###### From: Paul S. Person Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 09:03:16 -0700 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <20000501155509.02291.00000588@ng-fx1.aol.com> <20000501235625.04046.00002205@nso-fu.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.26.62 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 7 May 2000 15:59:16 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.7/32.534 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nycmny1-snh1.gtei.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18675 pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) wrote: >In article <20000501155509.02291.00000588@ng-fx1.aol.com>, fernwithy@aol.com >(FernWithy) writes: > >>>Really? Which one is that? I thought I had almost all Card's >>>novels, (except Saints and a couple of the "Call of Earth" books) >>>but I've never read the Book of Mormon, so maybe I didn't recognize it. >>> >> >>It's the Homecoming series (which "Call to Earth" is part of). It's a >>conscious science fictionalization of the BofM, just as the Tales of Alvin >>Maker are ar a fantasy version of the life of Joseph Smith. > >Well, I did not know that but it makes sense now. I read the first three >Homecoming books but the thirsd was a real struggle to keep interested in. I >liked Card's 'The Worthing Saga' but the next thing I read was 'Homecoming' and >I never touched him again. Maybe I'll try the 'Ender' books, lots a people >seem to like them and if I give OSC a second chance it sounds like those are >the best place to reaquaint myself. The 'Ender' books are definitely worth reading! I am also partial to C.J. Cherryh's science fiction. There is quite a lot of it, and I have enjoyed every volume in every series. I regret that I find her fantasy unreadable (yes, I have tried). ###### From: the softrat Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Sun, 07 May 2000 13:44:51 -0700 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Lines: 10 Message-ID: <9dlbhs04kcq8co0hn7uj25bf5mpraqubr4@4ax.com> References: <20000501155509.02291.00000588@ng-fx1.aol.com> <20000501235625.04046.00002205@nso-fu.aol.com> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!sn-inject-01!news.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18745 On Sun, 07 May 2000 09:03:16 -0700, Paul S. Person wrote: >that I find her fantasy unreadable (yes, I have tried). BUY TROLLIE It's been a slice......... the softrat mailto:softrat@pobox.com -- What you have to do is take the bull by the teeth. ###### From: Jamie Armstrong Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 20:16:07 +0100 Organization: http://www.geocities.com/jamie.armstrong/ Lines: 140 Message-ID: <39171277.D8A120FA@durham.ac.uk> References: <20000428102718.05637.00000213@ng-cj1.aol.com><3909A483.BBC4D057@durham.ac.uk> <8egn8h$aum$1@oden.abc.se> <390D99D0.87BCF3B3@durham.ac.uk> <8ekj9s$gka$1@oden.abc.se> <390EF9DF.302B0F9F@durham.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: lib3--38.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!news-x.support.nl!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!nntp.news.xara.net!xara.net!gxn.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18777 Eventually gets round to replying.... Thiele Everett wrote: > > Jamie Armstrong (Jamie.Armstrong@durham.ac.uk) wrote: > > : It made me go cross-eyed trying to read it - it's such a complicated > : obscure book that I'm convinced that only someone who knows turn of the > : century Dublin intimately, has a superb knowledge of the Greek myths, > : and basically who IS James Joyce can actually fully comprehend it. > > And in this regard it resembles Tolkien's works. Hmmm... not so sure - Tolkien did his best to proveide as much information about Middle Earth as he can. Joyce (as far as I could tell) doesn't. He assumes the reader know's what's being talked about, and doesn't care if they don't. > I love the lore, myths, > background, subtle and not-so-subtle parody, wordplay and punning, and > the minute attention to detail of setting which Tolkien and Joyce put > into their big books. That's what makes them come alive as worlds, zones > of the imagination which are so real that they seem discovered rather > than invented. > Well there, I'd probably be inclined to agree with you - if anything justifies Joyce being called a great author it's his attention to detail. > And believe it or not, once you start to get the 'hang' of _Ulysses_ it > turns out to be full of humor; it's a doggone riot! > I shall take your word for it - one attempt at reading it was faaaaarrr more than enough! > However I agree that the resistance threshold is very high. I started it > several times and couldn't get past the first few chapters because I > wasn't ready for it. Later when I really read it, something in me had said > 'yes' to the book in advance; I desired the supersensuous language, and > Joyce's learning and wit. Ah, well you see, thgat was more or less how I approached it too - for some reasonn I decided I had to read it. It's happened occasionally with other books too - Catch 22 was a good example - I didn't like that much either! Hmmm.. maybe I just have a lousy gut instinct?! > I used Stanly Sultan's _The Argument of Ulysses_ > as a kind of cheat-sheet which helped a lot. And so I lived in _Ulysses_ > for about half a year. In fact it was the second best read of my life, #1 > being--you guessed it--my virgin reading of LotR when I was twelve. > 12? A late starter then ;) > But I agree that there is no point in reading a book just because > everyone tells you that you *ought* to. Then the initial resistance > often just swells until you throw it down in disqust and hatred. > Actually, for me it depends on who does the recommending. I have virtually the same tastes as one of my friends, and almost anything that they recommend is read. Ulysses was something I had decided to read, and my failure to get to the end is a reflection of the inpenetrability of the style - I can normally force my way through most books, but not that one. > The same thing sometimes happens to people who get LotR shoved into > their hands by enthusiastic friends, relatives and spouses. No matter > how good the book is, if you don't feel you _want_ to like it, it's > going to suck. > I adopted the long, patient approach with a friend of mine - a whole year of quiet nagging about LotR (after I learned to my surprise that she hadn't read it) resulted in her insisting that I lend her my BBC adaptation! It did the trick - she read the book not long after! > : Therefore, I see it as being a completely selfish book written purely > : for the entertainment of Joyce, who knew that most of what he wrote > : would never be properly understood. > > That may be how you see it, but many people have enjoyed it since then, > SO WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH YOU, EH?! (caps for joking mock-anger) > > : But I never write off a whole genre of writing, or music, or anything - > : it just isn't fair. There are good books and there are bad books, and > : each must be judged by their merits. I once made the mistake of > : catagorising books I hadn't read, > > You just made it again, by dissing _Ulysses_ without having really > read it ;-) But at least I did *attempt* to read it, and drew my own conclusions! It's better than slagging it off, without bothering to read it in the first place. I read enough to know I couldn't cope with it. > > : until I saw the BBCs adaptation of > : 'Pride and Prejudice', and realised that I had been missing out on some > : of the greatest books ever written. Jane Austen is now one of my > : favourite authors (probably second only to Tolkien!). > > Agreed! Most of those classics they want you to read in school, and > that people think are utter boreville, turn out to be fantastic if > you give them a chance. Books usually don't become classics by being > dull. > Exactly! Being forced to read things, and being told that these are great books and that you WILL enjoy them just doesn't work - it produces and opposite reaction. It's just a shame that no-one seems to have come up with a way of making reading more attractive to those who don't bother. Most of my friends would never touch Austen. I've always been regarded as an odd-ball for reading (and what's worse - ENJOYING!) any of the classics. Which is their loss of course! > Anyway, I don't mean to try to claim that you *must* like thick writing > like in Ulysses. If you prefer clear, narrative-type writing like > in Jane Austen, then that's a fair choice to make. I wish you all the > best. > I shall stick with Jane - we're old friends now. I'll not intrude on Joyce's time any more! > An afterthought: > > As for what seems to be the really important difference between Joyce > and Tolkien: Joyce renounced his Catholic background and wrote a > satirical, mock-heroic book about the erosion of values. Tolkien > would seem to be Joyce's complete opposite, trying rather to reinvest > modern life with a heroic ethic (or at least musing somewhat nostalgically > over the dying past, rather than joyously bashing it to bits as Joyce > does) > You did English Lit, didn't you? I can tell.... Jamie ###### From: Jamie Armstrong Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Recommendations please . Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 20:40:13 +0100 Organization: http://www.geocities.com/jamie.armstrong/ Lines: 54 Message-ID: <3917181D.AEB4EF57@durham.ac.uk> References: <20000424115002.09581.00003479@ng-bh1.aol.com> <8e3i2u$8cgsl$2@fu-berlin.de> <8e7f04$mus$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <39083721.538CD3F1@durham.ac.uk> <8ea2ka$ilo$1@nnrp1.deja.com> <391088E7.3A899CCA@durham.ac.uk> <8er5r9$1pg$1@nnrp1.deja.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lib3--38.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!newscore.gigabell.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!newspeer.clara.net!news.clara.net!newsfeed.icl.net!easynet-tele!easynet.net!server5.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18786 Eruadan wrote: > > In article <391088E7.3A899CCA@durham.ac.uk>, > Jamie Armstrong wrote: > > Ohhhhh yes! > > The amazing thing is that I read all three of them! > > It was on the recommendation of a friend. Not one of her better > choices, > > I must say... > > You mean you read all three of the Rama II sequels? Errrmmm. Yes :( > If so, I pity > you. I did the > same thing, but not on anyone's recomendation, so I only have myself to > blame. But the > sad thing I found was that they could have been so much better, with > just a minor bit > of tweaking in the > storyline. Well - to be honest - _more_ than minor. But it was > _doable_. > Yes! Clarke hasn't got a clue what to do with his characters - he can't develop them for toffee, so he just has completely absurd stereotypes - an Italian journalist who is so Machivallien it's untrue; a English man who is completely insecure, and wanders around reciting Shakespear left right and centre; a French woman who is cool calm an collected 90% of the time, then freaks out the other 10%; 2 Americans, one of whom is totally obsessed by his religion, the other of who is a back-stabber.... It's just went on and on.... Whereas a little more effort from a slightly mroe competant writer could have produced a readbale series. He ruined the first book, which was rather good. > > Hmmm... bit late now methinks! And besides, I haven't got any more > spare > > time! > > You think I have that much? I'm running a 14.4k modem. :( It takes > me longer to > access a message than it does to read it. > Oh heck! I'd better shut up then :) Jamie