From: terran@mindspring.com (Terran) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Et tu, Merry? (was Re: Changes for the Movie Version) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 14:08:01 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 158 Message-ID: <38ff0ec3.9574271@news.mindspring.com> References: <8cajtt$ee3$1@newshost.transarc.ibm.com> <8camhb$2hc_016@news.uswest.net> <8carav$h19$1@newshost.transarc.ibm.com> <8cate8$2t0_004@news.uswest.net> <38EB928E.E809E1E1@durham.ac.uk> <8chhbe$1oo_048@news.uswest.net> <38ECCFB0.495696AE@durham.ac.uk> <8ckbad$3m4_008@news.uswest.net> <38F4624E.B7276386@durham.ac.uk> <9n9afsgk2pblr4jngkmasqgd7dj32pkiac@4ax.com> <38F5BFAD.8CC544E3@durham.ac.uk> <38FC683A.40620951@durham.ac.uk> <38FDCC2A.E498B9FF@durham.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.02.37 X-Server-Date: 20 Apr 2000 14:06:17 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17523 Enjoying reading the back and forth on the Witch King's demise. Here's my speculation, for what it's worth. I've always believed that the daggers taken from the Barrow were enchanted within the limited scope of the diminished men of Westernese at the time. The text is clear that these had "spells" on them and that they were part of a deliberate set up, along with the "not by the hand of man" foreshadow of the WT's demise. Tolkien, while given to flourishes, rarely, IMO, exaggerates or bungles such a well thought out set piece. Why would the men of Arnor waste their flagging energy and power forging long daggers then? This seems the crux question. Why not orc slayer swords for their troops? Better armor? Enchanted bows? My thoughts (and I apologize in advance for any misstatements, not having the source materials available): Whatever splinter kingdom of Arnor (Caldehorn? sp?) that took refuge in the Barrow Downs (a sacred place to the Edain before they entered Beleriand, I believe) was in desperate straits in their war against the WK and his minions. Prof T., versed in antiquity as well as, perhaps, inspired by contemporary history, may have seen them in such a bind plotting the assassination of their powerful enemy's leader as a way to turn the tide. Hence, the forging of daggers (knives as both Bombadil and Aragorn call them - long knives?) with special spells of bane for the WK. (certainly his demise would be to the "bane of Mordor"). How this jibes with what I remember of the texts and what I've read here: 1) Tom picks out the blades for the Hobbits with foresight, saying that they will need them if they are to travel into the east and south. 2) These being enchanted assassination daggers might help explain the puzzling retreat of the five (I believe) RW's on Amon Sul (though, in a side bar, I've always believed that the WK, in using the dagger he already had out and in his hand, and not his sword, to overcome the RB, was following orders from his master - who would have found Frodo a less potentially dangerous vehicle to bring the One to him then the WK itself - hence the "come back" with us hiss at the fords - speculation again) 3) After using a throw away line to describe all the "lesser" rings forged in Eregion (definitely magical), Prof. T. uses paragraph after paragraph, from some of his most potent characters (Tom B., Aragorn, even a direct narrator voice at Pelinor) to set up these blades as beyond the ordinary (weak, I know) 4) (and finally) My reading would square the amazing statement that, and I paraphrase, no other blade though wielded by a mightier hand would have dealt the WK so hard a blow. Think about it. Not Glamdring wielded by Gandalf, nor Orcrist wielded by Thorin? Not the reforged Narsil wielded by Aragorn? Not Narsil wielded by Elendil? Not even Turin's Sword wielded by T. T.? Why? Because this blade was forged specifically for the assassination of the WK. (or more generically, Ring Wraiths, though I prefer the former) My humble reading of the tea leaves with no offence to the "wise" here, though be they truly wise, what offence would they take? Terran (yes, Terran-bar, of course :) P.S. I'm coming looking for the next poster that tries to take me out of Dagor D. >:/ ... On Wed, 19 Apr 2000 16:09:30 +0100, Jamie Armstrong wrote: > > >Conrad Dunkerson wrote: >> >> "Jamie Armstrong" wrote in message >> news:38FC683A.40620951@durham.ac.uk... >> >> > But as I said elsewhere - why would you produce a short sword as >> > an anti-Nazgul weapon? >> >> Why wouldn't you? > >The obvious answer - I asked for that didn't I?! > >> If you are going to craft a short sword at all >> (or a large knife as it would have been for a Man) > > >Aren't they short swords for men? In TH sting is referred to as being as >good as a knife for a troll, so I would have thought it would be a short >sword, not a knife, for a man. > > >> why wouldn't you >> craft it as well as you could? Consider Sting... the premise you >> put forward would apply equally to it. >> >I don't think it would - Sting is an elvish blade, and so has inherent >qualities to it. But Merry's sword is of Numenorean origin, and I >personally can't help feeling that infussing it with magical qualities >is rather a lot of effort to go to for a weapon that you would not >expect to be used near a Nazgul. > >> > But I think that had not Eowyn taken the opportunity to kill the >> > Nazgul king, he would have healed himself eventually. And it >> > doesn't alter the fact that it was a non-magical blade that >> > actually finished off the King of Angmar. >> >> I agree with all of this. >> >> > And as far as I can tell, that's a point that still has to be >> > addressed by the pro-magical blade lobby ;) >> >> I don't see why they would need to. > >Because the argument as I understand it in favour of Merry's blade being >magical is that only because it was was he able to wound the Witch King. >Therefore, by extension Eowyn's blade MUST be magical, otherwise she can >do no serious harm to Sauron's captain. > >> The Witch King was killed by >> a non magical blade. That seems fairly clear. > >Agreed. > >> However, it does >> not really bear on whether Merry's sword was or was not magical. >> I'd suggest that it WAS magical simply because Aragorn and Tolkien >> both referred to "spells" on it. > >Oooo - I missed Aragorn's contribution - what/where was it? > >> Also note that Frodo's sword at >> Weathertop (of the same sort) flickered redly while Frodo was >> wearing the Ring - possibly a visible clue to a magical nature... >> two of the Nazgul apparently drew up short at the sight of it. > >Ah, now there's something that *might* convince me - I'd forgotten that! >Although I suppose I could be pedantic and say it only suggests that >Frodo's sword was magical, not the other three... ;) > >But I won't do that - it seems highly likely to me that all four blades >were of a similar nature, and that they are either all magical or all >ordinary. > >I shall go back and re-read the Weathertop scene tonight! > >Jamie ###### From: martins@tiger.cs.yorku.ca (Claude Martins) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Et tu, Merry? (was Re: Changes for the Movie Version) Date: 20 Apr 2000 14:44:47 GMT Organization: York University, North York Lines: 17 Message-ID: <8dn54v$i4m$1@sunburst.ccs.yorku.ca> References: <8cajtt$ee3$1@newshost.transarc.ibm.com> <38FC683A.40620951@durham.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.yorku.ca Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!tiger.cs.yorku.ca!martins Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17524 In article <38ff0ec3.9574271@news.mindspring.com>, Terran wrote: > >Enjoying reading the back and forth on the Witch King's demise. >Here's my speculation, for what it's worth. [snip snip] That's always been my reading of it as well. - Claude. -- -- Claude Martins | Timberwolf | ICQ: 5304950 | York U, Toronto, ON, CA martins@cs.yorku.ca | The Wolf Lair http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~martins/ "How lonely is the night without the howl of the wolf." -- Anon. ###### Reply-To: "Conrad Dunkerson" From: "Conrad Dunkerson" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <8cajtt$ee3$1@newshost.transarc.ibm.com> <8camhb$2hc_016@news.uswest.net> <8carav$h19$1@newshost.transarc.ibm.com> <8cate8$2t0_004@news.uswest.net> <38EB928E.E809E1E1@durham.ac.uk> <8chhbe$1oo_048@news.uswest.net> <38ECCFB0.495696AE@durham.ac.uk> <8ckbad$3m4_008@news.uswest.net> <38F4624E.B7276386@durham.ac.uk> <9n9afsgk2pblr4jngkmasqgd7dj32pkiac@4ax.com> <38F5BFAD.8CC544E3@durham.ac.uk> <38FC683A.40620951@durham.ac.uk> <38FDCC2A.E498B9FF@durham.ac.uk> <38ff0ec3.9574271@news.mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Et tu, Merry? (was Re: Changes for the Movie Version) Lines: 28 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 01:41:30 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 12.78.112.167 X-Complaints-To: abuse@worldnet.att.net X-Trace: bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net 956281290 12.78.112.167 (Fri, 21 Apr 2000 01:41:30 GMT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 01:41:30 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!wn4feed!worldnet.att.net!135.173.83.19!wnmasters2!bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17554 "Terran" wrote in message news:38ff0ec3.9574271@news.mindspring.com... > who would have found Frodo a less potentially dangerous vehicle > to bring the One to him then the WK itself - hence the "come > back" with us hiss at the fords - speculation again) Actually, in UT, The Hunt for the Ring, JRRT wrote that one of the primary reasons the Nazgul were sent after the One is because they would be unable to try to keep it from him; already being enslaved to Sauron's will and bound by their nine Rings, which Sauron held. > 4) (and finally) My reading would square the amazing statement > that, and I paraphrase, no other blade though wielded by a > mightier hand would have dealt the WK so hard a blow. The strange bit about this is that JRRT elsewhere indicates that Sam's dagger would have had the same effect... belying the "no other blade" part. However, in general I agree that this is indicative that the barrow blade was enchanted to be particularly deadly / damaging to the Nazgul. In my view this resulted in the W-K being dealt a serious wound which drove him to his knees and made him unable to defend himself long enough for Eowyn to strike and kill him. In theory Eowyn could have killed him alone, but without Merry's distraction she would not have had the opportunity. ###### From: terran@mindspring.com (Terran) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Et tu, Merry? (was Re: Changes for the Movie Version) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 16:31:25 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 46 Message-ID: <39008228.11047183@news.mindspring.com> References: <8cajtt$ee3$1@newshost.transarc.ibm.com> <38FC683A.40620951@durham.ac.uk> <8dn54v$i4m$1@sunburst.ccs.yorku.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.03.24 X-Server-Date: 21 Apr 2000 16:29:53 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.mindspring.net.MISMATCH!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17562 On 20 Apr 2000 14:44:47 GMT, martins@tiger.cs.yorku.ca (Claude Martins) wrote: >In article <38ff0ec3.9574271@news.mindspring.com>, >Terran wrote: >> >>Enjoying reading the back and forth on the Witch King's demise. >>Here's my speculation, for what it's worth. > >[snip snip] > >That's always been my reading of it as well. > >- Claude. I appreciate your response Claude. One thing I forgot to add, if I may try all your collective patiences a paragraph or two more. In the chapter title, "A Knife in the Dark" - I always suspected that JRRT was using a double entendre, given that at the climatic moment on Weathertop, there were two knives in the dark, so to speak: the Morgal dagger and the dagger of Westernesse. This juxtaposition itself seems to imply a greater stature to the latter, IMO. Also, in possible foreshadowing of the Eowyn (female), Merry (Hobbit) and dagger of Westernese one, two, three punch that takes down the Witch King on the field of Pelenor - we have the Frodo resisting with the previously mentioned dagger, Aragorn (and the others?) attacking with firebrands and interestingly the quite potent, timely and mysterious calling upon Elbereth by Frodo, all of which seems to somehow result in the withdrawal of the WK and his wraiths. I have never been comfortable with the idea put forward by Aragorn(?) that the WK had felt that his job was done. Neither the ring nor the bearer were under his control. Add to this the *they were not all here* suggestion and the only thing that *is* clear is that JRRT certainly felt the need to pile on the possible explanations as to why Aragorn and the Hobbits weren't wiped out then and there. Terran >Claude Martins | Timberwolf | ICQ: 5304950 | York U, Toronto, ON, CA >martins@cs.yorku.ca | The Wolf Lair http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~martins/ > "How lonely is the night without the howl of the wolf." -- Anon. ###### From: terran@mindspring.com (Terran) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Et tu, Merry? (was Re: Changes for the Movie Version) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 16:32:23 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 58 Message-ID: <39008262.11105870@news.mindspring.com> References: <8cajtt$ee3$1@newshost.transarc.ibm.com> <8camhb$2hc_016@news.uswest.net> <8carav$h19$1@newshost.transarc.ibm.com> <8cate8$2t0_004@news.uswest.net> <38EB928E.E809E1E1@durham.ac.uk> <8chhbe$1oo_048@news.uswest.net> <38ECCFB0.495696AE@durham.ac.uk> <8ckbad$3m4_008@news.uswest.net> <38F4624E.B7276386@durham.ac.uk> <9n9afsgk2pblr4jngkmasqgd7dj32pkiac@4ax.com> <38F5BFAD.8CC544E3@durham.ac.uk> <38FC683A.40620951@durham.ac.uk> <38FDCC2A.E498B9FF@durham.ac.uk> <38ff0ec3.9574271@news.mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.f7.03.24 X-Server-Date: 21 Apr 2000 16:30:48 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.21/32.243 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!news.mindspring.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17561 On Fri, 21 Apr 2000 01:41:30 GMT, "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: >"Terran" wrote in message >news:38ff0ec3.9574271@news.mindspring.com... > >> who would have found Frodo a less potentially dangerous vehicle >> to bring the One to him then the WK itself - hence the "come >> back" with us hiss at the fords - speculation again) > >Actually, in UT, The Hunt for the Ring, JRRT wrote that one of the >primary reasons the Nazgul were sent after the One is because they >would be unable to try to keep it from him; already being enslaved >to Sauron's will and bound by their nine Rings, which Sauron held. Excellent point. I stand corrected. Still, corrected in one speculation, I will engage in another :) Wouldn't you agree that the WK having the knife prepared for its attack signifies a greater plan than just taking the ring by force from Frodo. Perhaps, the Lidless Eye wished to shrivel Frodo personally under its gaze and enjoy wresting the ring from him as a punishment or torture? I'd be interested in your thoughts. >> 4) (and finally) My reading would square the amazing statement >> that, and I paraphrase, no other blade though wielded by a >> mightier hand would have dealt the WK so hard a blow. > >The strange bit about this is that JRRT elsewhere indicates that >Sam's dagger would have had the same effect... belying the "no >other blade" part. I would agree. In my, granted, personal reading of this, all the Barrow daggers would have proven equally effective vs. the WK. This doesn't necessarily belie the "no other blade" cite if you read it - no other *type* of blade - as opposed to one specifically forged and enchanted for the task by his bitterest foes. >However, in general I agree that this is >indicative that the barrow blade was enchanted to be particularly >deadly / damaging to the Nazgul. In my view this resulted in the >W-K being dealt a serious wound which drove him to his knees and >made him unable to defend himself long enough for Eowyn to strike >and kill him. In theory Eowyn could have killed him alone, but >without Merry's distraction she would not have had the opportunity. I didn't speak to this point in my fancies and am open to either possibility - or to add to the discussion, I have yet to be convinced that it may not be both an unknitting of his defensive spells *and* a distraction that both saves Eowyn and allows her the death blow. It seems clear to me that JRRT had an inclination to throw multiple causes at the WK to explain both his retreat at Amon Sul and his demise on Pelinor (as well as his failure to pursue the ring after his defeat at the fords, come to think...) Terran ###### From: Eruadan Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Et tu, Merry? (was Re: Changes for the Movie Version) Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 19:28:19 GMT Organization: Deja.com - Before you buy. Lines: 51 Message-ID: <8dqa42$ujk$1@nnrp1.deja.com> References: <8cajtt$ee3$1@newshost.transarc.ibm.com> <8camhb$2hc_016@news.uswest.net> <8carav$h19$1@newshost.transarc.ibm.com> <8cate8$2t0_004@news.uswest.net> <38EB928E.E809E1E1@durham.ac.uk> <8chhbe$1oo_048@news.uswest.net> <38ECCFB0.495696AE@durham.ac.uk> <8ckbad$3m4_008@news.uswest.net> <38F4624E.B7276386@durham.ac.uk> <9n9afsgk2pblr4jngkmasqgd7dj32pkiac@4ax.com> <38F5BFAD.8CC544E3@durham.ac.uk> <38FC683A.40620951@durham.ac.uk> <38FDCC2A.E498B9FF@durham.ac.uk> <38ff0ec3.9574271@news.mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.239.8.77 X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Apr 21 19:28:19 2000 GMT X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (WinNT; I) X-Http-Proxy: 1.0 x29.deja.com:80 (Squid/1.1.22) for client 129.239.8.77 X-MyDeja-Info: XMYDJUIDeruadan Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!news0.de.colt.net!colt.net!diablo.theplanet.net!newspeer.monmouth.com!nntp2.deja.com!nnrp1.deja.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17548 In article , "Conrad Dunkerson" wrote: [snip] > The strange bit about this is that JRRT elsewhere indicates that > Sam's dagger would have had the same effect... belying the "no > other blade" part. However, in general I agree that this is > indicative that the barrow blade was enchanted to be particularly > deadly / damaging to the Nazgul. In my view this resulted in the > W-K being dealt a serious wound which drove him to his knees and > made him unable to defend himself long enough for Eowyn to strike > and kill him. In theory Eowyn could have killed him alone, but > without Merry's distraction she would not have had the opportunity. I have always taken this to be pretty much the case. But I think the "no other blade" bit was more like saying that the right tool, in the right place, at the right time, with the right person's will. I agree that any knife could have done the work - just none of the others had the opportunity. Merry could have used Sting, or a knife picked up at his local armourer to stab the WK. Eowyn could have killed the WK directly, givien the opportunity. That opportunite came, though, when Merry stabbed him behind the knee, distracting him from finishing Eowyn off. In theory, anyone probably could have killed the WK under the right circumstances. Glorfindel prophesied that "not by the hand of man will he fall". Not _can_, just will. I think Glorfindel saw the WK's end, and knew that it would be a woman and a hobbit that killed him. The prophesy made the WK a bit careless, as he (and everyone else, apparently) took it to mean that he was invulnerable to being killed. At least, that's the way I under- stand it. Eruadan -- <*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*> Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, because to them you are small, insignificant, and taste good with ketchup Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ###### Sender: sahill@harper.uchicago.edu Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Et tu, Merry? (was Re: Changes for the Movie Version) References: <8cajtt$ee3$1@newshost.transarc.ibm.com> <8camhb$2hc_016@news.uswest.net> <8carav$h19$1@newshost.transarc.ibm.com> <8cate8$2t0_004@news.uswest.net> <38EB928E.E809E1E1@durham.ac.uk> <8chhbe$1oo_048@news.uswest.net> <38ECCFB0.495696AE@durham.ac.uk> <8ckbad$3m4_008@news.uswest.net> <38F4624E.B7276386@durham.ac.uk> <9n9afsgk2pblr4jngkmasqgd7dj32pkiac@4ax.com> <38F5BFAD.8CC544E3@durham.ac.uk> <38FC683A.40620951@durham.ac.uk> <38FDCC2A.E498B9FF@durham.ac.uk> <38ff0ec3.9574271@news.mindspring.com> From: Lancelot appearing sideways Message-ID: Lines: 21 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.3 NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 956864126 128.135.12.7 (Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:35:26 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:35:26 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: 27 Apr 2000 14:35:27 -0500 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.grnet.gr!news-feed1.eu.concert.net!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18048 terran@mindspring.com (Terran) writes: > Whatever splinter kingdom of Arnor (Caldehorn? sp?) that took refuge > in the Barrow Downs (a sacred place to the Edain before they entered > Beleriand, I believe) was in desperate straits in their war against > the WK and his minions. Prof T., versed in antiquity as well as, > perhaps, inspired by contemporary history, may have seen them in such > a bind plotting the assassination of their powerful enemy's leader as > a way to turn the tide. Hence, the forging of daggers (knives as both > Bombadil and Aragorn call them - long knives?) with special spells of > bane for the WK. (certainly his demise would be to the "bane of > Mordor"). Hmm, what if they knew of the prophesy, that no man would kill the WK, and so these weapons were for women assassins, and thus not so large and heavy? (Assuming their women didn't have the training and upbringing of Eowyn). / :@-) Scott \