From: Don Brinn Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Unfinished Tales Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:15:15 -0400 Organization: IST Lines: 32 Message-ID: <38FC6DF3.35E2B9AE@ist.uwaterloo.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: istpc55.uwaterloo.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!newsfeed-zh.ip-plus.net!news.ip-plus.net!News.Amsterdam.UnisourceCS!newspeer.te.net!news.indigo.ie!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!torn!watserv3.uwaterloo.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17400 I just read a post on r.a.b.t that made me re-evaluate my assumptions about Unfinished Tales. I've read the Hobbit, LOTR, and Silmarillion numerous times. I've also read some of Adventure of Tom Bombadil and HoME 9 (I think, the one with the epilogue in it). Currently, I am taking my time reading Letters, which I find most interesting and informative. I am also in the process of reading the Hobbit to my girlfriend as a bed time story, in an attempt to get her to read Lord of the Rings. I tried some of The Book of Lost Tales, which is HoME 1, I believe, but I found it rather dull, and only skimmed most of it. I always just assumed that UT would be like Book of Lost Tales. But, I just read a post which left me with the impression that it is not. So, what is UT like? Was it published posthumously? Does it contain actual narrative stories, or descriptions and explanations, or fragments of writings and drafts, or what? -- _________________________________________________ Don Waterloo, Ontario _________________________________________________ "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur." (Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.) ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Unfinished Tales References: <38FC6DF3.35E2B9AE@ist.uwaterloo.ca> X-Newsreader: trn 4.0-test70 (17 January 1999) From: sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Lines: 63 Message-ID: <9R%K4.198$x3.2575@uchinews> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.135.12.7 X-Trace: uchinews 956074437 128.135.12.7 (Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:13:57 CDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:13:57 CDT Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 16:13:57 GMT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsswitch.lcs.mit.edu!uchinews!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17427 Quoth Don Brinn : > I just read a post on r.a.b.t that made me re-evaluate my > assumptions about Unfinished Tales. Good! _Unfinished Tales_ is my favorite post-LotR Tolkien book: it lacks the troublesome non-canonical changes introduced in _The Silmarillion_ as published, but still consists mostly of interesting essays and stories (well, story fragments, sometimes... the title is all too often accurate) which gives it points over some parts of HoMe. I generally see _Unfinished Tales_ as something of a bridge between Silm. and HoMe. Almost all of the stories and essays in it are very good reads, and they shed a lot of light on various details of LotR and Silm. On the other hand, there are often multiple drafts and conflicting versions of the stories presented, and it's all framed by Christopher's commentary, much like HoMe. Unlike some parts of HoMe, that commentary is generally fairly light: the texts themselves really are the main focus, not their evolution. > I tried some of The Book of Lost Tales, which is HoME 1, I believe, > but I found it rather dull, and only skimmed most of it. It's got some marvellous fragments, to be sure (I love the old tale of the Fall of Gondolin in BOLT II), but I find the early HoMe books to be fairly rough going. On some level, they're describing an entirely different mythology, which only through a great deal of evolution became what we know and love as the Quenta Silmarillion today. > I always just assumed that UT would be like Book of Lost Tales. But, I > just read a post which left me with the impression that it is not. It absolutely positively is not. :) > So, what is UT like? Was it published posthumously? Does it > contain actual narrative stories, or descriptions and explanations, > or fragments of writings and drafts, or what? I've answered these questions above, mostly. Like everything dealing with the First Age (apart from the Appendices of LotR), it was published posthumously. It's primarily a collection of narrative stories and essays about fascinating aspects of Middle-earth; as I said earlier, it's a great read. It does have some places where multiple drafts are presented, and many of the stories weren't completed, but they're still some of my favorite tales by Tolkien. Despite all that, it's a _much_ more readable book than _The Book of Lots Tales_. One final note: I _don't_ think I agree with the person who recently said that they recommend reading UT before Silm. (though I am interested in hearing how that experiment comes out). UT in many places assumes familiarity with the greater mythology, and I've always just figured that it would be fairly incomprehensible in many places to people who didn't know that mythology themselves. Ok, a final final tidbit: you might appreciate my Tolkien Booklist, if you haven't already seen it. It's on the web at http://home.uchicago.edu/~sbjensen/Tolkien/ Enjoy _Unfinished Tales_! Steuard Jensen ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Unfinished Tales Lines: 40 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 18 Apr 2000 16:48:54 GMT References: <38FC6DF3.35E2B9AE@ist.uwaterloo.ca> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <20000418124854.10644.00001367@nso-fn.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17411 In article <38FC6DF3.35E2B9AE@ist.uwaterloo.ca>, Don Brinn writes: >So, what is UT like? Was it published posthumously? Does it contain >actual narrative stories, or descriptions and explanations, or fragments >of writings and drafts, or what? > > UT is a great read. It's alot like all those little tidbits one keeps nibbling on at the dinner table after you've already said "no thank you, I'm full." "Filling up the corners" is what my father called it. For the most part that descibes the essence, but for now for specifics: Yes it was published posthumously and "unfinished" could be applied to each piece in different ways. It contains both naratives and essays of events pertaining to each of the three ages as well as a fourth section with essays on elements that don't fit neatly into one of the three (The Palantíri, The Istari, and the Drúedain) The First Age pieces are alternate versions of chapters/episodes of The Silmarillion, which while closer to Tolkiens final intent, would have made the Silmarillion as published very inconsitant, therefore they were sacrificed for the unity of the whole. The Second and Third sections have more background material, in both story and essay form, to stories already written (TH, LotR) rather than alternate versions of stories already published. Breathe Peace PB "... the essence of myth [is] that it have no taint of allegory to the maker and yet should suggest incipient allegories to the reader..." C. S. Lewis, having read "The Lay of Leithian" ###### From: sonshi57@mindspring.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Unfinished Tales Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:49:10 -0400 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 10 Message-ID: <38FC9206.D7E6CFFB@mindspring.com> References: <38FC6DF3.35E2B9AE@ist.uwaterloo.ca> <9R%K4.198$x3.2575@uchinews> Reply-To: Kungmingtao@mindspring.com NNTP-Posting-Host: a5.79.41.b3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 18 Apr 2000 16:48:18 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!firehose.mindspring.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17392 Steuard Jensen wrote: Snip Just curious about one thing. The various posthumous books may be valued as good reads, but can any posthumous book truly be regarded as canonical, that is *authoritative* for resolving disputes or issues for works published during an author's lifetime? Kinda makes you wonder what would happen if people found drafts of the bible? veg ###### From: Jamie Armstrong Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Unfinished Tales Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 17:52:11 +0100 Organization: http://www.geocities.com/jamie.armstrong/ Lines: 51 Message-ID: <38FC92BB.AAF4C27F@durham.ac.uk> References: <38FC6DF3.35E2B9AE@ist.uwaterloo.ca> <9R%K4.198$x3.2575@uchinews> NNTP-Posting-Host: er151-29.dur.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!news2.aha.ru!newsfeed.rt.ru!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!diablo.theplanet.net!newsfeed.esat.net!news.heanet.ie!server5.netnews.ja.net!nntphost.dur.ac.uk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17386 Steuard Jensen wrote: > > Quoth Don Brinn : > > I just read a post on r.a.b.t that made me re-evaluate my > > assumptions about Unfinished Tales. > I suspect that I was responsible for that post... > Good! _Unfinished Tales_ is my favorite post-LotR Tolkien book: it > lacks the troublesome non-canonical changes introduced in _The > Silmarillion_ as published, but still consists mostly of interesting > essays and stories (well, story fragments, sometimes... the title is > all too often accurate) which gives it points over some parts of > HoMe. > I can only echo Steuard's sentiments - UT is probably my third favourite book by Tolkien - after LotR and The Hobbit. The reason I recommended it as the next port of call after LotR is that UT is a collection of stories - some fragments, others complete - which cover events in both LotR and the Silmarillion. From the Third Age Tolkien outlines the origins of the Istari, the Druedain, and the Palantir. He also describes the Battle of the Fords of Isen, and the ride of Rohirrim to the rescue of Gondor at the Field of Clebrant, and possibly the most interesting of all, the Disaster at the Gladden Fields. UT also covers writings from the Second and First Ages - there is a much more readable account of Tuor's arrival in Gondolin, and similarly a more readable version of the story of the children of Hurin ("Narn i Hin Hurin") than is found in The Sil. From the Second Age UT gives a description of Numenor, and also an almost complete acount of one of the tales from the island before it's destruction. However, it only gives these snippets, rather than a full overview. I only recommend it for reading before The Silmarillion because I feel that The Sil is hard going, and it can be all too easy for people to quit after a few chapters. Whereas reading UT before gives a taste of what is to come, and can draw the reader into The Sil more easily. That's my argument anyway - I daresay most here would, like Steuard, disagree with me and say that UT has to be read in the context of The Silmarillion. As Steuard said though, the writings are often fragmentary, although there are one or two complete tales. In some instances (particularly the Hunt for the Ring) two alternative plots are given. Nevertheless, it is well worth reading! Jamie ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Unfinished Tales Date: 18 Apr 2000 22:13:59 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 70 Message-ID: <6u4s8zmak8.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <38FC6DF3.35E2B9AE@ist.uwaterloo.ca> <9R%K4.198$x3.2575@uchinews> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 956088840 711 10.0.3.2 (18 Apr 2000 20:14:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Apr 2000 20:14:00 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17428 sbjensen@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) writes: > Quoth Don Brinn : > > I just read a post on r.a.b.t that made me re-evaluate my > > assumptions about Unfinished Tales. > > Good! _Unfinished Tales_ is my favorite post-LotR Tolkien book: I have so far read Silm, UT, HoME I - IV and am at the moment on HoME V just at the beginning of QS. My favourite up to now is definitely The Lost Road (that particular story, not the entire HoME IV). Really bad that he did not finish that one. > essays and stories (well, story fragments, sometimes... the title is > all too often accurate) :-) > > I tried some of The Book of Lost Tales, which is HoME 1, I believe, > > but I found it rather dull, and only skimmed most of it. > > It's got some marvellous fragments, to be sure (I love the old tale of > the Fall of Gondolin in BOLT II), but I find the early HoMe books to > be fairly rough going. On some level, they're describing an entirely > different mythology, which only through a great deal of evolution > became what we know and love as the Quenta Silmarillion today. Second place goes to BOLT I+II (at least some of the sequences in I and the last chapter of II). In some places is actually a nicer one than the later Quwnta. The whole "sundering" issue is far more cleaner. The Tol Eressea in the middle of the ocean. Also the entire Eriol and Rumil stuff which was ditched from the Quenta was nice. In both TLR and BOLT, I like the entire framing device, the embedding into the "real" world. It really adds the depth that Silm lacks. > One final note: I _don't_ think I agree with the person who recently > said that they recommend reading UT before Silm. (though I am > interested in hearing how that experiment comes out). Actualy I think it would be a good idea. > UT in many > places assumes familiarity with the greater mythology, and I've always > just figured that it would be fairly incomprehensible in many places > to people who didn't know that mythology themselves. At least Tuor and Hurin should be able to stand as single stories. So also Erendis. Possibly also Gladden Fields (I am surprised that did not land in LoTR). All the Galadriel part would be incomprehensible (and IMHO should have appeared in HoME when inventing and retrofitting her as part of LoTR). OTOH if he had not written HoME we would then have never seen it. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Unfinished Tales Date: 18 Apr 2000 22:19:04 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 28 Message-ID: <6uya6bkvrb.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <38FC6DF3.35E2B9AE@ist.uwaterloo.ca> <9R%K4.198$x3.2575@uchinews> <38FC9206.D7E6CFFB@mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 956089144 711 10.0.3.2 (18 Apr 2000 20:19:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 18 Apr 2000 20:19:04 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17429 sonshi57@mindspring.com writes: > Steuard Jensen wrote: > > Just curious about one thing. The various posthumous books may be > valued as good reads, but can any posthumous book truly be regarded as > canonical, that is *authoritative* for resolving disputes or issues for > works published during an author's lifetime? No. As any dispute has to be aimed at an particular time point (and often not doing that leads to heated debate here). The whole "final battle" thread was about whether the battle was still "on the books" when LoTR was written. > Kinda makes you wonder what would happen if people found drafts of the > bible? veg Erm. They have. And the cognoscenti fight over them fragments (some ar e known as the "Dead Sea Scrolls") just like we here do over HoME. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)? ###### Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Unfinished Tales References: <38FC6DF3.35E2B9AE@ist.uwaterloo.ca> <20000418124854.10644.00001367@nso-fn.aol.com> Reply-To: coren@spdcc.com Organization: Pigs in Blankets From: coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) Lines: 26 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 18:24:25 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.128.237.113 X-Complaints-To: abuse@mediaone.net X-Trace: typhoon.ne.mediaone.net 956082265 24.128.237.113 (Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:24:25 EDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:24:25 EDT Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.37!feed1.news.rcn.net!rcn!chnws02.mediaone.net!chnws05.ne.mediaone.net!24.128.8.202!typhoon.ne.mediaone.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17484 In article <20000418124854.10644.00001367@nso-fn.aol.com>, PaulB wrote: >In article <38FC6DF3.35E2B9AE@ist.uwaterloo.ca>, Don Brinn > writes: > >>So, what is UT like? Was it published posthumously? Does it contain >>actual narrative stories, or descriptions and explanations, or fragments >>of writings and drafts, or what? >> >> > >UT is a great read. It's alot like all those little tidbits one keeps nibbling >on at the dinner table after you've already said "no thank you, I'm full." >"Filling up the corners" is what my father called it. Did he now? So did hobbits, according to "A Long-expected Party". I loved UT, although I found it mildly frustrating that Christopher decided not to repeat those parts of the tale of Túrin that had already been published in _The Silmarillion_, so that in order to get a continuous narrative you had to jump back and forth between the two books. -- ---Robert Coren (coren@spdcc.com)--(or try net instead of com)------- "Little baklavas pulsate in the oven. It's scary and somewhat erotic." --BBC ###### From: pbachjson@aol.comnojunk (PaulB) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Unfinished Tales Lines: 30 NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder05.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Date: 18 Apr 2000 19:22:00 GMT References: Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com X-Newsreader: Session Scheduler Message-ID: <20000418152200.12351.00001475@nso-fb.aol.com> Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.129!portc01.blue.aol.com!portc.blue.aol.com!audrey04.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17467 In article , coren@spdcc.com (Robert S. Coren) writes: >>"Filling up the corners" is what my father called it. > >Did he now? So did hobbits, according to "A Long-expected Party". As a matter of fact he did, although I had forgotten that hobbits called it that too. Unless...Oh... My... God!!!! ME has worked it's way into my life so much that I have started taking things from it as my own memories! I really didn't pull the reference from "A Long-expected Party" purposely. I haven't read that passage in six months (when I last read LotR.) I really thought my dad had said it. I'm not sure now. He still might have. This is really weird. Has this type of thing happened to anyone else? Breathe Peace PB "... the essence of myth [is] that it have no taint of allegory to the maker and yet should suggest incipient allegories to the reader..." C. S. Lewis, having read "The Lay of Leithian" ###### From: Don Brinn Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Unfinished Tales Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:43:00 -0400 Organization: IST Lines: 47 Message-ID: <38FCBAC4.3EFDE5F1@ist.uwaterloo.ca> References: <20000418152200.12351.00001475@nso-fb.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: istpc55.uwaterloo.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!enews.sgi.com!torn!watserv3.uwaterloo.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17464 PaulB wrote: > In article , coren@spdcc.com > (Robert S. Coren) writes: > > >>"Filling up the corners" is what my father called it. > > > >Did he now? So did hobbits, according to "A Long-expected Party". > > As a matter of fact he did, although I had forgotten that hobbits called it > that too. > Unless...Oh... My... God!!!! > > ME has worked it's way into my life so much that I have started taking things > from it as my own memories! I really didn't pull the reference from "A > Long-expected Party" purposely. I haven't read that passage in six months > (when I last read LotR.) I really thought my dad had said it. I'm not sure > now. He still might have. This is really weird. Has this type of thing > happened to anyone else? Once, when younger and arguing and fighting with my sister (as siblings do), I was searching for a good insult to toss at her, and came up with "Fatty Bolger". It soon become one of my nasty-insult-names to call her. If she's being snotty, I still call her that occasionally. And yes, I know that's mean of me. But, trust me, she's at least as mean to me too! > > Breathe > Peace > > PB > > "... the essence of myth [is] that it have no taint of allegory to the maker > and yet should suggest incipient allegories to the reader..." > C. S. Lewis, having read "The Lay of Leithian" -- _________________________________________________ Don Waterloo, Ontario _________________________________________________ "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur." (Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.) ###### From: Don Brinn Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Unfinished Tales Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:46:04 -0400 Organization: IST Lines: 28 Message-ID: <38FCBB7C.11AD4B21@ist.uwaterloo.ca> References: <38FC6DF3.35E2B9AE@ist.uwaterloo.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: istpc55.uwaterloo.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!torn!watserv3.uwaterloo.ca!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17462 Well, thanks to everyone for the UT comments. I appreciate them - keep them coming if you wish. As it is, you've convinced me of UT's worthiness to the point where I have decided that after work today (in under an hour) I'm stopping by the library to borrow a copy. I, with great ferocity and skill, wrote: > I just read a post on r.a.b.t that made me re-evaluate my assumptions > about Unfinished Tales. > So, what is UT like? Was it published posthumously? Does it contain > actual narrative stories, or descriptions and explanations, or fragments > of writings and drafts, or what? ________________________________________________ Don Waterloo, Ontario _________________________________________________ "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur." (Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.) ###### From: Nip Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Unfinished Tales Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:29:07 +0200 Organization: AOI Lines: 14 Message-ID: <38FCC593.1C15F3B0@cute.girls> References: <38FC6DF3.35E2B9AE@ist.uwaterloo.ca> <9R%K4.198$x3.2575@uchinews> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win98; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!news.maxwell.syr.edu!howland.erols.net!news.alt.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17432 Steuard Jensen wrote: > One final note: I _don't_ think I agree with the person who recently > said that they recommend reading UT before Silm. (though I am > interested in hearing how that experiment comes out). UT in many > places assumes familiarity with the greater mythology, and I've always > just figured that it would be fairly incomprehensible in many places > to people who didn't know that mythology themselves. I tried reading UT before Silmarillion - reading about Tuor and Turin of the First Age was just too confusing. It makes much more sense after reading the Simlarillion. And FWIW I think the Narn i Hin Hurin (or something like that) is some of Tolkien's finest prose. ###### From: Nip Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Unfinished Tales Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:34:30 +0200 Organization: AOI Lines: 7 Message-ID: <38FCC6D6.C32CE2D0@cute.girls> References: <38FC6DF3.35E2B9AE@ist.uwaterloo.ca> <20000418124854.10644.00001367@nso-fn.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win98; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!howland.erols.net!news.alt.net!usenet Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17433 PaulB wrote: > UT is a great read. It's alot like all those little tidbits one keeps nibbling > on at the dinner table after you've already said "no thank you, I'm full." > "Filling up the corners" is what my father called it. Is your father short and have hairy feet as well? ###### From: orius@webtv.net (David Sulger) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Unfinished Tales Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 23:42:20 -0400 (EDT) Organization: WebTV Subscriber Lines: 9 Message-ID: <14864-38FD2B1C-10@storefull-256.iap.bryant.webtv.net> References: <38FC9206.D7E6CFFB@mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.webtv.net Mime-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit X-WebTV-Signature: 1 ETAsAhRxTYFB9J5tgJ0+2STryxdds5mrKAIUOmxhoKyGcyaOdy0drC1SvZmOzvk= Content-Disposition: Inline Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!paloalto-snf1.gtei.net!news.gtei.net!webtv.net!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17435 >Kinda makes you wonder what would >happen if people found drafts of the >bible? Ever hear of the Dead Sea Scrolls? There are debates on the accurracy of their contents. --Dave ###### From: Mia Kalogjera Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Unfinished Tales Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 13:06:03 -0700 Organization: HiNet Lines: 22 Message-ID: <38FE11AB.7DDA@diespamdie.theonering.net> References: <38FC6DF3.35E2B9AE@ist.uwaterloo.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: ar4-p13-ri.tel.hr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: as102.tel.hr 956141869 25179 195.29.237.141 (19 Apr 2000 10:57:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@tel.hr NNTP-Posting-Date: 19 Apr 2000 10:57:49 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!194.25.134.126.MISMATCH!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.icl.net!europa.netcrusader.net!204.71.34.3!newsfeed.cwix.com!argos.tel.hr!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17483 Don Brinn wrote: > I always just assumed that UT would be like Book of Lost Tales. But, I > just read a post which left me with the impression that it is not. > > So, what is UT like? Was it published posthumously? Does it contain > actual narrative stories, or descriptions and explanations, or fragments > of writings and drafts, or what? I suggest you buy it, I have read it many times and it's filled with interesting excerpts wich help you understand the history of ME better. But, the thing is (well, it is called _unfinished_ tales) that those stories leave you wanting for more. In parts it feels like bits of narrative or dialogue which should have made it into LotR (etc.) but were rejected in the creative process. IMHO. But buy it anyway. -- "I don't walk on the edge. I walk on the other side." Die Andere Seite at http://www.crosswinds.net/~jereeza TheOneRing.net LotR film site at http://theonering.net e-mail: jereeza(at)yahoo.com or mia(at)theonering.net ###### From: "Raven" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <38FC6DF3.35E2B9AE@ist.uwaterloo.ca> <9R%K4.198$x3.2575@uchinews> <38FC9206.D7E6CFFB@mindspring.com> Subject: Re: Unfinished Tales Lines: 28 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 02:39:06 +0200 NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.82.223.57 X-Complaints-To: abuse@get2.net X-Trace: news.get2net.dk 956193871 195.82.223.57 (Thu, 20 Apr 2000 03:24:31 MET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 03:24:31 MET DST Organization: get2net Internet Kunde Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!bignews.mediaways.net!skynet.be!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!news.get2net.dk!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17517 skrev i en news:38FC9206.D7E6CFFB@mindspring.com... > Kinda makes you wonder what would happen if people found drafts of the > bible? Others have mentioned the Dead Sea Scrolls. But the modern Bible was not written in stone as soon as Paul was done writing his letters. There was a lot of selection going on until the final Bible emerged. Many parts left out are called 'apocryphal'. I know that one of the apocryphes described in more detail the children begotten between the Sons of God and the Daughters of Men, back before the deluge. A Danish author wrote a novel about some Martian men escaping from an oppressive matriarchy, going to Earth, and begetting children with Earth women; and these were the events described in the largely, but not completely, omitted writings about giants in Genesis. Some other apocryphals are gospels. In one it is described how child Jesus played with other children, building canals and dams in the mud. Jesus made better canals and dams than the other kids; one of them became jealous and destroyed what Jesus had made; Jesus became angry and killed that boy by willing it; the bereaved parents complained to Mary and Joseph, who asked Jesus to revive the dead boy; Jesus, with an air of carelessness, did so, at the end of that day. The above are from memory, and details may be inaccurate. But the Bible is heavily edited, at least in that it was chosen from many source texts which ones to put in. Havran. ###### From: "Andrew Wells" Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Unfinished Tales Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 18:59:18 +0100 Organization: Wellinghall Lines: 21 Message-ID: <8e9v7v$8pdl6$1@fu-berlin.de> References: <38FC6DF3.35E2B9AE@ist.uwaterloo.ca> <9R%K4.198$x3.2575@uchinews> <6u4s8zmak8.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: 179.01-02.quay.dial.plus.net.uk (212.159.68.179) X-Trace: fu-berlin.de 956858432 9221798 212.159.68.179 (16 [23037]) X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!pfaff.ethz.ch!news-zh.switch.ch!news-ge.switch.ch!newscore.univie.ac.at!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!179.01-02.quay.dial.plus.net.UK!not-for-mail Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:17891 Neil Franklin wrote in message <6u4s8zmak8.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>... >My favourite up to now is definitely The Lost Road (that particular >story, not the entire HoME IV). Or even V ... :-) >Really bad that he did not finish that one. Agreed. Where is .ch, BTW? Andrew -- Andrew Wells Replace nospam with my first name to reach me ###### Path: chonsp.franklin.ch!not-for-mail From: Neil Franklin Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Unfinished Tales Date: 03 May 2000 01:14:21 +0200 Organization: My own Private Self Lines: 27 Message-ID: <6u1z3ka6k2.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> References: <38FC6DF3.35E2B9AE@ist.uwaterloo.ca> <9R%K4.198$x3.2575@uchinews> <6u4s8zmak8.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch> <8e9v7v$8pdl6$1@fu-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: chonsp.franklin.ch X-Trace: chonsp.franklin.ch 957309261 1330 10.0.3.2 (2 May 2000 23:14:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@chonsp.franklin.ch NNTP-Posting-Date: 2 May 2000 23:14:21 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.7/Emacs 20.4 Xref: chonsp.franklin.ch rec.arts.books.tolkien:18200 "Andrew Wells" writes: > Neil Franklin wrote in message <6u4s8zmak8.fsf@chonsp.franklin.ch>... > > >My favourite up to now is definitely The Lost Road (that particular > >story, not the entire HoME IV). > > Or even V ... > :-) Argh. Of course V. IV would be the Shaping. > >Really bad that he did not finish that one. > > Agreed. > > Where is .ch, BTW? Switzerland. Smack in the middle of Europe. -- Neil Franklin, neil@franklin.ch.remove http://neil.franklin.ch/ Nerd, Geek, Hacker, Unix Guru, Sysadmin, Roleplayer, LARPer, Mystic Use a WIMP (Windows Icons Mouse Pulldowns) interface - or get one with a CLUE (Command Line User Environment)?